[opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Tateru Nino tateru.nino at gmail.com
Fri Apr 9 08:44:48 PDT 2010

My apologies, Joe - I'll email you directly.

On 10/04/2010 1:28 AM, Joe Miller wrote:
> Tateru,
> You can continue down this road if you wish, but the facts are the
> words in 13.3 do not become effective for Residents who had registered
> before March 31, 2010 until April 30 2010.  (See the blog post here
> <https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2010/03/31/updated-second-life-terms-of-service>
> with additional words to that effect.)  The updated TOS text was
> pushed to everyone so they would have the benefit of a full 30 days to
> review it before acknowledging formal acceptance of it by accessing
> the system after April 30. 
> So, please, do not add to the rhetoric here by telling me about
> contract law, charges of fraud, coercion or whatever point you're
> trying to make.  The TOS in force today was the agreement accepted by
> all Residents of record prior to March 31.  After April 30, everything
> you say about section 13.3 in the new TOS is reasonably accurate.
> The purpose of my brown bag is to talk about the new TPV policy and
> the concerns raised by several members of the open source community. 
> I intend to listen to listen to all reasonable proposals to address
> those concerns.  Those who do not wish to participate in that
> synchronous event can email me instead if they so choose.   Again, I'm
> looking forward to a productive exchange of specific ideas to address
> specific shared concerns, whether at these meetings or via some other
> channel.
> If you have nothing to offer, there is no reason to come.
> -- Joe
> Tateru Nino wrote:
>> That clear statement is inadmissible by the terms of the TOS §13.3,
>> I'm afraid, which disclaims such as not being a valid part of the
>> agreement. No part of the agreement that is made admissible by §13.3
>> suggests or implies any commencement date other than immediately.
>> Nor does it permit any explanation, FAQ, supplement, or discussion to
>> be considered relevant (except as provided, which none have been).
>> Boilerplate it may be, but it is binding boilerplate. It could say
>> that "This agreement grants you a lifetime supply of banana custard",
>> but that's not actually in there. It would be an assurance that is
>> disclaimed within the agreement. §10.3 absolves the Lab and its
>> representatives of charges of fraud if they say something about the
>> agreements that aren't strictly speaking true, in order to obtain
>> agreement.
>> As a general rule for contracts and agreements (leaving aside the
>> TPVP, the TOS, and Linden Lab for a moment), it's widely considered
>> remiss to act based on inadmissible representations or explanations
>> of a contract from /the other party to the actual agreement/. That's
>> the sort of thing lawyers warn you not to do.
>> On 9/04/2010 3:32 PM, Joe Linden wrote:
>>> Of course you can.  The ToS presented at login clearly states it
>>> becomes effective on 4/30.  In the meantime, you continue to use the
>>> service under the terms of the prior ToS which doesn't contain the
>>> TPV provisions.  If one has issues with the prior ToS agreement, and
>>> hasn't previously accepted those terms, then I agree, this meeting
>>> isn't for you.
>>> -- joe
>>> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Boy Lane <boy.lane at yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:boy.lane at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>     Thanks Joe.
>>>     Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting
>>>     ToS/TPV in the first place.
>>>         ----- Original Message ----- Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57
>>>         -0700
>>>         From: Joe Linden <joe at lindenlab.com <mailto:joe at lindenlab.com>>
>>>         Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue
>>>         dialog on TVPV
>>>         next Tuesday (4/13)
>>>         To: OpenSource-Dev <opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com
>>>         <mailto:opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com>>
>>>         Message-ID:
>>>         <v2k6b9495c41004081324ibd5ec762zb8d098a09c7f010f at mail.gmail.com
>>>         <mailto:v2k6b9495c41004081324ibd5ec762zb8d098a09c7f010f at mail.gmail.com>>
>>>         Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>         Hello, all.  I've been reading the ongoing commentary here,
>>>         on various
>>>         blogs, irc, and in-world groups about the recently
>>>         introduced Third Party
>>>         Viewer Policy and Directory and I'd like to host an "office
>>>         hour" or
>>>         informal brown bag to make the conversation a little more
>>>         synchronous for
>>>         those who are interested.  I plan to hold three of these
>>>         over the next
>>>         couple of weeks, at times that might be friendlier for some
>>>         than others, but
>>>         the first one will happen next Tuesday, 4/13 at noon PDT.
>>>          I'd like to
>>>         address questions about the intent of the policy, how we
>>>         will be using the
>>>         Directory going forward, and see if I can gather the
>>>         specific concerns that
>>>         have been raised by the community over the past several
>>>         weeks.  It'll be an
>>>         informal Q&A session, held in voice, at this location:
>>>         http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/229/230/29
>>>         No RSVP needed, and feel free to rebroadcast the invite to
>>>         others you think
>>>         would benefit from open dialog around the subject.
>>>         I hope to see many of you there next week.
>>>         -- Joe
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
>> -- 
>> Tateru Nino
>> http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Tateru Nino

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