[opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV

Brandon Husbands xotmid at gmail.com
Fri Apr 30 01:29:06 PDT 2010

My credentials are not up for discussion. Most in Second Life are well aware
of who I am and what I stand for. Additionally most creditable and active
community members know my contributions and projects. Though i could be
mistaken in the extent to which this information travels. If I am wrong in
my assumption then perhaps we can use a different forum or venue to discuss
these things.

Now on to your questions let us take a look at what you are saying and

1 The company.
Please show me what Government databases you looked in that also covers DBAs
and assumed operating names, You place accusations here without proper proof
nor justification.

2. The bans you mention.
As far as I know, Linden Labs does not discuss with anyone outside of its
company and the people which they take action upon the conditions relevant
information regarding disciplinary actions and bans. So unless you are a
Linden or have been one in the past i Highly doubt that the information is
truly factual.

3. Are you accusing Linden Labs of pandering to the almighty dollar instead
of standing up for the company integrity on their own list? Sir, that is a
huge accusation. I ask again where is your factual information that has
brought you to this conclusion? I would honestly say that this is indeed not
a true thing you state and is borderline slander against the very company
which you supposedly are a third party contribute for.

4. The toxic viewer source is posted. If you care to look at it here is the
https://dcs.sourcerepo.com/dcs/tox_view/ feel free to look at it and take
what ever changes you see that you like. Be warry as its just a general repo
for my dir i work in.  The Voice component is not included in the installer
btw. Furthermore the Toxic Viewer is no longer in active development as it
was something that was asked of me to do by my wife. And trust me you do not
wanna go there. Youll just have to trust me on that. So in all honesty its a
null point.

Now on to my own conclusions regarding your communications.
I really do not have much more to say to you in this subject. But I will
offer some advice in regards to point 3. As I tell my kids. "You do not ***
where you eat and you do not bite the hand which feeds you. Now its not my
place to parent you nor is it my place to tell you what to do.. I only offer
this advice as a human being that is concerned with the direction this
discussion is going.

So in a nutshell I do not believe and will safely assume that no one on this
list thinks that this is a proper forum for this type of
accusation/discussion. May i give you one more piece of advise. Have you
tried the proper channels for this type of inquisition? If I am not mistaken
the url is support.secondlife.com. Once your on that page you can select new
ticket/issue. That would probably be the best avanue to question these
things. On a side note if you need assistance filing a ticket I would be
more than happy to assist.


On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:12 AM, Boy Lane <boy.lane at yahoo.com> wrote:

>  Sorry, seems I have to correct myself. Mr. Brandon Husbands seems to be
> Dimentox Travanti. Creator of the "Toxic Viewer". A project that violates
> GPL by not providing sources as well as distributing non-redistributable
> components such as the Vivox voice packages.
> This adds very well to your credibility Mr. Brandon Husbands :).
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Boy Lane <boy.lane at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> ; Discrete Dreamscape<discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com
> *Sent:* Friday, April 30, 2010 3:57 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
> I don't know who you are Mr. Brandon Husbands, you are certainly not a
> viewer developer but a fly-by-night who want's to add some oil to the drama
> fire. It does not really matter.
> I stated facts here, not flames.
> Modularsytems is a "company" with a legal status we dont't know, created
> and owned by a person with permanently banned accounts due to ToS
> violations.
> Modularsystems is registered as this entity in the viewer directory.
> Modularsystems develops and uses malicious viewers, namely "Onyx", with
> several other malicious projects done by key developers such as Fractured,
> Phox, Skills or Cryo. All who had their accounts permanently banned for ToS
> violations.
> I asked a legitimate question to LL, to repeat it once again: How can for
> repeated ToS violations permanently banned people just circumvent that ban
> by creating new accounts as many of the Emerald developers did? Is it money
> spent for SL that counts rather than ToS?
> As you haven't read my posting, rather add irrelevant accusations in your
> own posting, Mr. Brandon Husband, that are supposedly to confuse the reader
> and discredit legitimate questions, lI can only conclude you are the troll
> here.
> Boy
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com>
> *To:* Discrete Dreamscape <discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Boy Lane <boy.lane at yahoo.com> ; opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com
> *Sent:* Friday, April 30, 2010 3:55 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
> I do not add much to the list.. But I will say... Mr lane, what ever your
> problem is with Emerald... You should probably let it go.  This blatant
> flaming and trolling does not help the open source community. Your actions
> and flames are actually a hindrance to the community as a whole. You see i
> say community as we typically work together to make things better etc.
> It Seems you mostly wish to sabotage and wreck havoc. It is counter
> productive and plain rude.
> SO i must request... Either take this offline directloy with the people you
> have a problem with or quit posting this crap as I do not want to have to
> read it. So as they say either *** or get off the pot.... So either become a
> active positive contributing member of this community or go away. I am quite
> fed up with the Trolls and will no longer personally tolerate it. So please
> go stroke your ego else where and lets get back to discussing code and
> things that actually matter to us besides your grievance against emerald.
> Dim.
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Discrete Dreamscape <
> discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd like to remark that the information you found is just the data of the
>> ModularSystems website, and all of the other viewer directory listings look
>> about the same as Emerald's. The actual real-life name(s) of people involved
>> aren't required to be publicly viewable, but Linden Lab does have them.
>> Also, consider the possibility that .sl was chosen as a domain because it
>> could be an abbreviation for SecondLife. Cute, eh?
>> I seriously doubt anyone with malicious intent is going to bother trying
>> to register their viewer in the directory.
>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Boy Lane <boy.lane at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> We certainly should follow the bright example of Emerald /
>>> Modularsystems,
>>> where you Discrete are a member of. A pseudo company set up and owned
>>> by known banned griefer JCool aka who revived his banned account(s) under
>>> the names of Fractured Crystal/Fractured Modularsystems.
>>> Back to their registration. JCool set up Modularsystems. A mailbox
>>> company
>>> with the following contact details:
>>> http://modularsystems.sl/
>>> P.O. Box 5702
>>> West Columbia, South Carolina 29171-5702
>>> United States
>>> administrator at modularsystems.sl
>>> That is an untraceable anonymized entity without any name attached to it
>>> and
>>> unknown legal status, registered with a domain name in Sierra Leone, a
>>> country
>>> that does not even have a WHOIS.
>>> This information was used to register and self-certify Emerald in the
>>> Viewer
>>> Directory.
>>> As I as a legally uniformed hobby programmer without commercial interest
>>> can
>>> evaluate this situation and validity of the Emerald listing, it is meant
>>> to
>>> circumvent
>>> any means of the viewer directory to hold a developer accountable for
>>> their
>>> viewers. It is also meant to avoid any possible litigation from LL in
>>> case
>>> indeed
>>> some malicious code may be found in their viewer(s). Besides Emerald,
>>> Modularsystems
>>> also develops and uses a malicious viewer named "Onyx" that is in clear
>>> violation of
>>> ToS/TPV.
>>> So no, Discrete, all these things completely contradict your argument. As
>>> shown a
>>> listing in Lindens viewer directory doesn't add a single piece of safety
>>> or
>>> security. To
>>> look for a legitimate viewer the Alternate Viewer list in the community
>>> edited SL Wiki
>>> is a better place to, for the simple reason malicious clients may not
>>> easily
>>> slip in as
>>> this is possible with self-certification. A blacklist is a good thing and
>>> could at least
>>> complement Viewer Directory and Alternate Viewers list. But of course it
>>> would
>>> include most of the malicious viewer from the key developers behind
>>> Modularsystems
>>> which obviously you try to avoid.
>>> Additional question to Linden Lab: How can for repeated ToS violations
>>> permanently
>>> banned people just circumvent that ban by creating new accounts as many
>>> of
>>> the
>>> Emerald developers did? Is it money spent for SL that counts rather than
>>> ToS?
>>> Boy
>>> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:39:16 -0400
>>> > From: Discrete Dreamscape <discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com>
>>> > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Viewer blacklist to replace the TPV
>>> > directory ?
>>> > To: Tigro Spottystripes <TigroSpottystripes at gmail.com>
>>> > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> > <g2nc38195a91004291339p41f404edgfe05a593c813c6c1 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > This discussion seems to have been created with misleading intentions.
>>> >
>>> > Because some TPV creators don't want to reveal any personal information
>>> > about themselves, they can't be posted on the TPV directory, and
>>> because
>>> > of
>>> > this, it's understandable they might view the directory as unfair. But,
>>> > this
>>> > doesn't strike me as a valid reason to criticize the list.
>>> >
>>> > It's certainly valid to say that the viewers on the list are not
>>> > absolutely
>>> > trustworthy unless a full code audit is done, but even then, do you
>>> really
>>> > know that what's in the code is the same as what's in the binary? Isn't
>>> > there a limit to what LL can do, given a lack of resources to perform
>>> such
>>> > audits, especially when what you download requires trust that it's the
>>> > same
>>> > as what they've audited?
>>> >
>>> > But really, trust is supposed to be provided by the fact that the
>>> viewer
>>> > has
>>> > indeed registered using real-life contact information, because who
>>> would
>>> > give such a thing knowing they could be held liable if they indeed
>>> decided
>>> > to include malicious code? In general, there is no way to certify
>>> purity
>>> > here, you can only provide a level of trust as a guideline. You can't
>>> rely
>>> > on babysitting the users, because LL isn't going to compile every third
>>> > party's code and release the binaries themselves.
>>> >
>>> > In this regard, you may begin to argue that indeed, a blacklist would
>>> > better
>>> > serve users. I argue that this is exactly the opposite. You may be able
>>> to
>>> > pick out which viewers are explicitly untrusted, but you make no
>>> > statements
>>> > about the trustworthiness of any others. In this situation, a user is
>>> left
>>> > to choose between either a viewer which is in the grey about its
>>> status,
>>> > or
>>> > an official Linden viewer. This point is key, as far less warranty is
>>> > provided for users that they won't be banned for using a third party
>>> > viewer.
>>> > I suspect that in this case, many would simply give up and use the
>>> > official
>>> > client rather than risk their business, etc.
>>> >
>>> > If you want to provide a system where users can trust the clients they
>>> > use,
>>> > it seems like our current one is decent enough. In any case, a
>>> blacklist
>>> > doesn't appear to be any safer.
>>> >
>>> > Discrete
>>> >
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