From oz at lindenlab.com Sun Aug 1 04:35:40 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 07:35:40 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Change of office hours for Oz Linden Message-ID: <4C555C0C.6090306@lindenlab.com> Effective immediately, I'm moving my early office hours slot from Tuesdays to Mondays at the same time (7:30 SLT), see https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Oz_Linden/Office_Hours From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 05:45:02 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:45:02 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1.4 Showstopper: Reopened: VWR-9475 Message-ID: Cursors are missing from the artwork... This was assigned to Soft Linden who closed it as 'resolved', but it is NOT resolved. Should I be confused? Perhaps it should be assigned to Merov? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100802/da445c7b/attachment.htm From dzonatas at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 06:42:44 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 06:42:44 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Image Recognition Message-ID: <4C56CB54.7030309@gmail.com> Hi, I caught the tweet from Pamela Fox @ Google, and she linked a development for image recognization: http://developer.iqengines.com/ What stood out was how a UUID was included and some sort of description present. It's not gesture recognition through motion, yet even I can think of how this could apply well in Second Life at different levels. I'm thinking of ideas from authentication to... returning an "abstract" texture UUID for an object's face detected by a ray-cast, see my blog: http://icyspherical.blogspot.com/2010/07/optimizing-simulations-with-basic.html Any questions? =) =) =) -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From soft at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 2 09:59:11 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 09:59:11 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1.4 Showstopper: Reopened: VWR-9475 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > Cursors are missing from the artwork... > > This was assigned to Soft Linden who closed it as 'resolved', but it is NOT > resolved. > Should I be confused? Perhaps it should be assigned to Merov? I'm not sure what's up here. I sent Merov a link to the commit that fixed this part of the export ~14 months ago, and have asked him to make sure that change exists in whatever branch Snowglobe 1.14 is exported from. -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 16:24:48 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 01:24:48 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1.4 Showstopper: Reopened: VWR-9475 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brian, doc/asset_urls.txt contains the line SLASSET_ART= http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/oss-viewer/export/slviewer-artwork-oss-viewer-1.23.4.0.zip Downloading that and checking it with unzip -l shows that there is no res-sdl in it. Is that url not correct? Or did you expect this zip file to contain the cursor bit maps? On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Brian McGroarty wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Aleric Inglewood > wrote: > > Cursors are missing from the artwork... > > > > This was assigned to Soft Linden who closed it as 'resolved', but it is > NOT > > resolved. > > Should I be confused? Perhaps it should be assigned to Merov? > > I'm not sure what's up here. I sent Merov a link to the commit that > fixed this part of the export ~14 months ago, and have asked him to > make sure that change exists in whatever branch Snowglobe 1.14 is > exported from. > > -- > Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100803/34745d8f/attachment.htm From suezanne at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 21:31:23 2010 From: suezanne at gmail.com (SuezanneC Baskerville) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:31:23 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] The avatar name on the login screen in Viewer 2. Message-ID: Where is the remembered username stored, where is read and written in the source code, and how do you make it not appear on your login screen? By "remembered username" I mean the username that appears pre-filled on the login screen in Viewer 2. Someone asked in the forums how you make the username be blank when you launch Viewer 2. That drove me to looking at the source code to find where the name is fetched from and I haven't been able to find it so far. I'm asking here because I don't know any better place to find people that are familiar with SL source code. Thanks, Sue Baskerville -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100802/86a18495/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Tue Aug 3 00:57:13 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:57:13 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1.4 Showstopper: Reopened: VWR-9475 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100803095713.cce7b1cc.sldev@free.fr> On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 01:24:48 +0200, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > Hi Brian, > > doc/asset_urls.txt contains the line > > SLASSET_ART= > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/oss-viewer/export/slviewer-artwork-oss-viewer-1.23.4.0.zip > > Downloading that and checking it with unzip -l shows that there is no > res-sdl in it. > > Is that url not correct? Or did you expect this zip file to contain the > cursor bit maps? The cursors (*.cur files) are in there, in the res/ directory... But the bitmaps are part of the SDL pre-built library, which means that when doing a standalone build (that doesn't fetch the pre-built libararies), you don't get the bitmaps installed... Not sure why the bitmaps have been moved to the pre-built SDL library package, but it's definitely a wrong move ! Henri. From sldev at free.fr Tue Aug 3 01:21:22 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:21:22 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Missing artwork and library files. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100803102122.8f28dc86.sldev@free.fr> On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 16:57:47 +0200, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I'm trying to update the wiki on how to build the viewer (on linux). > I noted that it requires you to download files that don't exist. > This was reported before on SNOW-604 but still not restored by Linden Lab. > > The only right way would be if Linden Lab adds them back, but... Any news on this ? The files for v1.13.5 are still missing while I gave to Merov the pointers to at least the Linux tarballs about one month ago at an Hippo meeting... Here there are again: http://sldev.free.fr/sources/slviewer-artwork-viewer-rc-frozen-1.23.5.136274.zip http://sldev.free.fr/sources/slviewer-linux-libs-viewer-rc-frozen-1.23.5.136274.tar.gz http://sldev.free.fr/sources/slviewer-src-viewer-rc-frozen-1.23.5.136274.tar.gz Henri. From dzonatas at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 06:25:35 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 06:25:35 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Performance: 100%-150% increase in rendering Message-ID: <4C5818CF.6010507@gmail.com> Hi, I believe I found another solution. In my research as I optimized graphics routines in the viewer, I achieved between 100% to 150% increase in rendering performance. To be fair, I reported as "up to 100%". There overall frame loop has many tasks, so keep that in mind that overall performance increase noted are of tasks that directly related to rendering itself. I was blackboxed from the results when deployed. I admit, it pissed me off how that was done, even if I had a right to be pissed, ... meh. However, I found out that "shown" results were actually not even my fault. I even realize they aren't of the of fault of those who immediately worked around with me on it. Of what little I had to work with, it didn't make sense, and the obvious thing was to "fix" it as a bug. I think some of us realize it was no software bug. I can understand while the market plays to GPUs, that such any performance increase that would generally help everybody would be held back because of.... "overclockers". I don't think it matters anymore, and no need to keep something that isn't a secret as a secret anymore. Let's just say that I was visualizing how the "streaming media extensions" work through the hardware. Then I realized that the obvious answer was that "overclockers" were reporting problems yet they weren't telling they overclocked. The visualization I had led me to decide that is the logical explanation. "Overclocking"... don't do that! We have proven that the overall performance in rendering "sucks" for the larger general audience due to the "few" that report "knowledge" of their "crashes" from "overclocking" yet.... those details aren't even being recorded even when fully not blackboxed. Even where there is no crashes... it is only a demostrations of where the GPU actuall fails... and not the CPU... of course there is no crash. The GPU is preventing itself... it only overheats... hides itself and "BURN". Enjoy! -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From dzonatas at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 08:44:21 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 08:44:21 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Performance: 100%-150% increase in rendering In-Reply-To: <4C5818CF.6010507@gmail.com> References: <4C5818CF.6010507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C583955.4060209@gmail.com> Was just thinking of a secondary proof to this. This should be helpful to traditional physicist: Dark Liquid Crystal. The significant thing to note is how light "slows" or "refracts" as noted by dark matter... when taken to a substate. On that note... it's not for me to "doctor" the Rx, and I know someone that wants... heh... "BURN"... love it! Oh let's "share" this one... LMAO!!!! P.S. Working On It 2.0... Dzonatas Sol wrote: > Hi, > > I believe I found another solution. > > In my research as I optimized graphics routines in the viewer, I > achieved between 100% to 150% increase in rendering performance. To be > fair, I reported as "up to 100%". > > There overall frame loop has many tasks, so keep that in mind that > overall performance increase noted are of tasks that directly related > to rendering itself. > > I was blackboxed from the results when deployed. I admit, it pissed me > off how that was done, even if I had a right to be pissed, ... meh. > > However, I found out that "shown" results were actually not even my > fault. I even realize they aren't of the of fault of those who > immediately worked around with me on it. Of what little I had to work > with, it didn't make sense, and the obvious thing was to "fix" it as a > bug. > > I think some of us realize it was no software bug. I can understand > while the market plays to GPUs, that such any performance increase > that would generally help everybody would be held back because of.... > "overclockers". > > I don't think it matters anymore, and no need to keep something that > isn't a secret as a secret anymore. > > Let's just say that I was visualizing how the "streaming media > extensions" work through the hardware. Then I realized that the > obvious answer was that "overclockers" were reporting problems yet > they weren't telling they overclocked. The visualization I had led me > to decide that is the logical explanation. > > "Overclocking"... don't do that! We have proven that the overall > performance in rendering "sucks" for the larger general audience due > to the "few" that report "knowledge" of their "crashes" from > "overclocking" yet.... those details aren't even being recorded even > when fully not blackboxed. > > Even where there is no crashes... it is only a demostrations of where > the GPU actuall fails... and not the CPU... of course there is no > crash. The GPU is preventing itself... it only overheats... hides > itself and "BURN". > > Enjoy! > > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From marinekelley at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 09:32:32 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:32:32 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] The avatar name on the login screen in Viewer 2. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Suezanne, you may want to look at the method LLPanelLogin::setFields() in newview/llpanellogin.cpp Marine On 3 August 2010 06:31, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote: > Where is the remembered username stored, where is read and written in the > source code, and how do you make it not appear on your login screen? > > By "remembered username" I mean the username that appears pre-filled on > the login screen in Viewer 2. > > Someone asked in the forums how you make the username be blank when you > launch Viewer 2. That drove me to looking at the source code to find where > the name is fetched from and I haven't been able to find it so far. > > I'm asking here because I don't know any better place to find people that > are familiar with SL source code. > > Thanks, > > Sue Baskerville > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100803/5ba885d3/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 3 10:53:42 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:53:42 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Source meeting 08-03 Message-ID: <4C5857A6.7040408@lindenlab.com> Merov is on vacation this week and next, and I am unfortunately tied up this afternoon so neither of us will be available to host the Hippotropolis meeting today. By all means feel free to hold it without us. From dzonatas at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 12:12:35 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 12:12:35 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Performance: 100%-150% increase in rendering In-Reply-To: References: <4C5818CF.6010507@gmail.com> <4C583955.4060209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C586A23.7070804@gmail.com> Hi, I understand your leading question. It leads me to the conclusion that we should allow public Second Life Groups to automatically allow or disallow features within the client viewer architecture. That probably doesn't make sense unless you read the source, yet there are so many people that don't read the source. I started to think about a "Doctor" group, as in Science-of-the-Arts Doctor. I think universities may need such funding^B^B^B^B, especially if they own the group as a piece of content they create. It's not obvious, yet between Second Life land and a Second Life group the features already exist to create a certain desired flow. It's like... i have a set of minimal features needed... here is a larger set that provides them. It doesn't make sense to you unless you understand the minimal features needed. Chat in those groups are optional, yet I think SL may want to consider group-chat-rates for real institutions and commercial businesses that reach a certain threshold. Note that the significant feature here is the group acts as "flags" internally and externally to the source code... if you strip out what you know about chat and some other features. Start with that idea and catch-up... because we didn't have to change it. Nexii Malthus wrote: > ..What? > > - Nexii > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Dzonatas Sol > wrote: > > Was just thinking of a secondary proof to this. This should be helpful > to traditional physicist: Dark Liquid Crystal. > > The significant thing to note is how light "slows" or "refracts" as > noted by dark matter... when taken to a substate. > > On that note... it's not for me to "doctor" the Rx, and I know someone > that wants... > > > > heh... "BURN"... ?love it! > > Oh let's "share" this one... LMAO!!!! > > > > P.S. Working On It 2.0... > > > > Dzonatas Sol wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I believe I found another solution. > > > > In my research as I optimized graphics routines in the viewer, I > > achieved between 100% to 150% increase in rendering performance. > To be > > fair, I reported as "up to 100%". > > > > There overall frame loop has many tasks, so keep that in mind that > > overall performance increase noted are of tasks that directly > related > > to rendering itself. > > > > I was blackboxed from the results when deployed. I admit, it > pissed me > > off how that was done, even if I had a right to be pissed, ... meh. > > > > However, I found out that "shown" results were actually not even my > > fault. I even realize they aren't of the of fault of those who > > immediately ?worked around with me on it. Of what little I had > to work > > with, it didn't make sense, and the obvious thing was to "fix" > it as a > > bug. > > > > I think some of us realize it was no software bug. I can understand > > while the market plays to GPUs, that such any performance increase > > that would generally help everybody would be held back because > of.... > > "overclockers". > > > > I don't think it matters anymore, and no need to keep something that > > isn't a secret as a secret anymore. > > > > Let's just say that I was visualizing how the "streaming media > > extensions" work through the hardware. Then I realized that the > > obvious answer was that "overclockers" were reporting problems yet > > they weren't telling they overclocked. The visualization I had > led me > > to decide that is the logical explanation. > > > > "Overclocking"... don't do that! ?We have proven that the overall > > performance in rendering "sucks" for the larger general audience due > > to the "few" that report "knowledge" of their "crashes" from > > "overclocking" yet.... ?those details aren't even being recorded > even > > when fully not blackboxed. > > > > Even where there is no crashes... ?it is only a demostrations of > where > > the GPU actuall fails... and not the CPU... ?of course there is no > > crash. The GPU is preventing itself... it only overheats... hides > > itself and "BURN". > > > > Enjoy! > > > > > > > -- > --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- > Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Wed Aug 4 00:58:03 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 09:58:03 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] projects/2009/snowglobe/1.4 versus projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk Message-ID: <201008040958.04117.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Hi all, right now it seems that some critical fixes go into trunk, and some go into 1.4... what's the policy about syncing / merging / fixing / backporting? bye, LC From dzonatas at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 08:12:58 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 08:12:58 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine Message-ID: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> I can't keep secrets, so I get blackboxed. It bugs me there are perfect, or almost perfect, programs that just need to be turned around in a way. Too many people are stuck in a paradigm that to even think about it would create a paradox to them. Is that the meaning of paradyme in motion? I think that means people are soon gonna realize that the spam has already started to be a problem where smarter filters don't work anymore. Just observing an email has already been a problem to spam others. They can't even tell the difference between a save button and a button that saves itself... adware. We don't need smart filters. We need a dumb filter... with love! On that note, I doubt support for MOAP as it exists now is going to last, yet there was an obvious other purpose if you read the source. I know various solutions to this, and they all have the answer, yet I know people will want to walk their own path. My question is, should we collect a few more solutions? As a kid, I loved playing go fish, and then gin, and then gin rummy, and rummy, and then rummykub. =) Poker probably fits right between gin and gin rummy. MOAP is like gin rummykub with a pun. There is an opportunity here with MOAP while it lasts, yet don't expect specific external protocol to last. I'm listening to many ideas everyone wants that it makes me feel not to change it at all, step on a few toes, and rip this from that, and put this big hated thing right there, and maybe sometime state there is only backword compatibility based on the libraries now compiled. What's the difference? How about: 1) Running both code bases on the same machine 2) Running precompiled linux binaries on windows machines "right there" 3) Apple? I only hear about iPhones from them and not... Do I really want to do the hard work by myself? Do I have to explain... How about... do you want it right there... or somewhere else? How about turning around without even turning around? My secret... -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From bunny at bunnynet.org Thu Aug 5 17:43:55 2010 From: bunny at bunnynet.org (Bunny Halberd) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 19:43:55 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > As a kid, I loved playing go fish, and then gin, and then gin rummy, and > rummy, and then rummykub. =) Am I accidently filtering part of this list? This is not the first message I've gotten that seems completely out of context... - Bunny From marc at inworlddesigns.com Thu Aug 5 17:57:54 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 20:57:54 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Bunny Halberd wrote: > On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > >> As a kid, I loved playing go fish, and then gin, and then gin rummy, and >> rummy, and then rummykub. =) > > Am I accidently filtering part of this list? This is not the first > message I've gotten that seems completely out of context... > > - Bunny I'm with you Bunny the last few messages haven't made hardly any sense at all. I know it has something to do with some card games, MOAP and apple but what do they all have in common and is it relevant to opensource-dev? From dzonatas at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 19:16:46 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:16:46 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C5B708E.9010509@gmail.com> Marc Adored wrote: > I'm with you Bunny the last few messages haven't made hardly any sense > at all. I know it has something to do with some card games, MOAP and > apple but what do they all have in common and is it relevant to > opensource-dev? > > For accessibility needs. Actually, we did something the "server only" devs wanted. Imagine VX.X source uploaded a texture to opensim. Then imagine that being downloaded to Radegast. Then imagine it telling users the description of the texture. If there is any problems, I'll be sure to show the timeslice coLinux takes in between VX.X and webkit just to let them think thereafter what that meant. If that doesn't mean anything, then I've done what I have to do to protect your context. However, google might translate that texture to GPL code.... with image recognition. They are concerned this is viral. I think that got that backwards. BSD is for students only. -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From open at autistici.org Fri Aug 6 00:23:27 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 09:23:27 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08d48aafbd8b158c0f4c354ac580b48e@localhost> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 20:57:54 -0400, Marc Adored wrote: > On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Bunny Halberd wrote: >> Am I accidently filtering part of this list? This is not the first >> message I've gotten that seems completely out of context... >> >> - Bunny > > I'm with you Bunny the last few messages haven't made hardly any sense > at all. I know it has something to do with some card games, MOAP and > apple but what do they all have in common and is it relevant to > opensource-dev? (not a personal reply to you: just my feelings on this) I'm fine with them. In the past months this mailing list has been filled with lots of messages that were much more off-topic (I argue these ones are actually in-topic, if a bit cryptic), AND those were full of hate. These ones seem full of passion, instead, and the list is not being overloaded. Have a look to Dzonatas'work. If you can, read sources as he suggested (I can't, unfortunately). By the way, one can check if she got all list messages through the archives, that can be found by following the links in the footer. Opensource Obscure From jhwelch at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 12:05:18 2010 From: jhwelch at gmail.com (Jonathan Welch) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 15:05:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Testers requested for V2 patch Message-ID: I've written a very simple patch and would like a few people to test and/or comment on it: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17801 This fixes a minor menu error in Viewer 2. Thanks, -jonathan From dzonatas at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 13:02:20 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:02:20 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: <08d48aafbd8b158c0f4c354ac580b48e@localhost> References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> <08d48aafbd8b158c0f4c354ac580b48e@localhost> Message-ID: <4C5C6A4C.7090008@gmail.com> Opensource Obscure wrote: > By the way, one can check if she got all list messages > through the archives, that can be found by following > the links in the footer. > > Opensource Obscure > I would also suggest to read Google's policy and term and conditions very carefully. If anybody can disagree, then I ask for your reply, but I think LL screwed over by themselves (not important to use who made who)... it is important to fix the issue. They've had an adult grid that is suppose to be fast, easy,... and fun. They've had an teen grid that is suppose to be ... easy... fast... clean? Where is the family grid? I wouldn't doubt Google had on their minds to someone increase LL's revenue by a billion US$ over time, yet I can see that doesn't even match their protocol right now. They could bring back gambling, banks, stock market, and so on... and just get rid of one idea that makes almost next dumbest nominate idea ever next to disposable baby plastic water bottles. Sincerely, ___________________ Life -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From dzonatas at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 14:28:21 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 14:28:21 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets Message-ID: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> Here is the proposal, as a routine. The written logical explanation in English with normalized words defeats the purpose of the routine for every reason that supports it. "Got to put a face on it:" Store timestamp by UUID. Keep secondary UUID to XOR with every second. Doesn't matter if timestamp of UUID changes within that second, as long as one of the two changes. That's a new "second". Do that again for the new "minute" based on 60 new seconds. The hour is optional, as there are several more value to consider to make a new "hour". And so on, until you have decided on a new "timestamped UUID". Store the original assets by Asset UUID or new timestamped UUID. Don't transmit the original timestamp of the asset... only transmit the the newer created unique value. The client-side can then create assets by that newer value, which would then create its own timestamp on the client side. I think LL can figure out the rest... Save yourself! -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From dzonatas at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 15:10:38 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 15:10:38 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets In-Reply-To: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> References: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C5C885E.2030804@gmail.com> If Linden Labs implements this much and Google thinks it is "clean", then maybe I'll smile again and show how to do folded execution... and how to earn the money. US open source "no-engine"ers aren't fools. We love magic, however. Dzonatas Sol wrote: > Here is the proposal, as a routine. The written logical explanation in > English with normalized words defeats the purpose of the routine for > every reason that supports it. > > "Got to put a face on it:" > > Store timestamp by UUID. > Keep secondary UUID to XOR with every second. > Doesn't matter if timestamp of UUID changes within that second, as > long as one of the two changes. > > That's a new "second". > > Do that again for the new "minute" based on 60 new seconds. > > The hour is optional, as there are several more value to consider to > make a new "hour". > > And so on, until you have decided on a new "timestamped UUID". > > Store the original assets by Asset UUID or new timestamped UUID. > > Don't transmit the original timestamp of the asset... only transmit > the the newer created unique value. > > The client-side can then create assets by that newer value, which > would then create its own timestamp on the client side. > > I think LL can figure out the rest... > > Save yourself! > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 7 07:01:58 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 10:01:58 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets In-Reply-To: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> References: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C5D6756.6020607@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-06 17:28, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > Here is the proposal, as a routine. The written logical explanation in > English with normalized words defeats the purpose of the routine for > every reason that supports it. Clarity is never wasted. You have not given any hint at all as to what problem you are trying to solve - without at least that, there is no way to even start thinking about what you've written. From dzonatas at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 08:34:36 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 08:34:36 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets In-Reply-To: <4C5D6756.6020607@lindenlab.com> References: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> <4C5D6756.6020607@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C5D7D0C.2060806@gmail.com> Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-08-06 17:28, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > >> Here is the proposal, as a routine. The written logical explanation in >> English with normalized words defeats the purpose of the routine for >> every reason that supports it. >> > Clarity is never wasted. > > You have not given any hint at all as to what problem you are trying to > solve - without at least that, there is no way to even start thinking > about what you've written. > Thanks! Sometimes the concept is never understood when the meaning to the word concept is not understood. If the content is money, it means nothing, to We, who appreciate the honey. We use use the spoon to eat the honey. Bend the spoon? Easy. -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From marinekelley at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 09:10:19 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 18:10:19 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets In-Reply-To: <4C5D7D0C.2060806@gmail.com> References: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> <4C5D6756.6020607@lindenlab.com> <4C5D7D0C.2060806@gmail.com> Message-ID: lol I knew it ! This text IS actually a Markov chain ! That or it is aimed at a subset of the members of this list who actually know the encryption key to extract the hidden message. But to the rest of us, this is just nonsense. On 7 August 2010 17:34, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > On 2010-08-06 17:28, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > > > >> Here is the proposal, as a routine. The written logical explanation in > >> English with normalized words defeats the purpose of the routine for > >> every reason that supports it. > >> > > Clarity is never wasted. > > > > You have not given any hint at all as to what problem you are trying to > > solve - without at least that, there is no way to even start thinking > > about what you've written. > > > > Thanks! > > Sometimes the concept is never understood when the meaning to the word > concept is not understood. If the content is money, it means nothing, to > We, who appreciate the honey. > > We use use the spoon to eat the honey. > > Bend the spoon? > > Easy. > > -- > --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- > Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100807/526f3682/attachment.htm From gwynn.gunawan at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 10:21:41 2010 From: gwynn.gunawan at gmail.com (Gwynn Gunawan) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 18:21:41 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets In-Reply-To: References: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> <4C5D6756.6020607@lindenlab.com> <4C5D7D0C.2060806@gmail.com> Message-ID: :) > lol I knew it ! This text IS actually a Markov chain ! > > That or it is aimed at a subset of the members of this list who actually > know the encryption key to extract the hidden message. But to the rest of > us, this is just nonsense. Count me in with the latter gang plx, k, thnx, bye But I thought it entertaining, of perhaps in the wrong place, but I aint gonna be naggin' about it :-D ~gg > > > > On 7 August 2010 17:34, Dzonatas Sol wrote: >> >> Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> > ? On 2010-08-06 17:28, Dzonatas Sol wrote: >> > >> >> Here is the proposal, as a routine. The written logical explanation in >> >> English with normalized words defeats the purpose of the routine for >> >> every reason that supports it. >> >> >> > Clarity is never wasted. >> > >> > You have not given any hint at all as to what problem you are trying to >> > solve - without at least that, there is no way to even start thinking >> > about what you've written. >> > >> >> Thanks! >> >> Sometimes the concept is never understood when the meaning to the word >> concept is not understood. If the content is money, it means nothing, to >> We, who appreciate the honey. >> >> We use use the spoon to eat the honey. >> >> Bend the spoon? >> >> Easy. >> >> -- >> --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- >> Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Don't fight back. Fight forward. From garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com Sat Aug 7 13:23:13 2010 From: garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com (Garmin Kawaguichi) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 22:23:13 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets References: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0747C8D8333C4172B20C85966E11F53E@Deimos> I suppose Dzonatas is taking a holiday and somebody is using her computer! GCI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dzonatas Sol" To: Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 11:28 PM Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets > Here is the proposal, as a routine. The written logical explanation in > English with normalized words defeats the purpose of the routine for > every reason that supports it.etc etc From fractured at modularsystems.sl Sat Aug 7 13:26:45 2010 From: fractured at modularsystems.sl (Fractured Crystal) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 16:26:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fixing the Assets In-Reply-To: <0747C8D8333C4172B20C85966E11F53E@Deimos> References: <4C5C7E75.2080708@gmail.com> <0747C8D8333C4172B20C85966E11F53E@Deimos> Message-ID: <4C5DC185.10908@modularsystems.sl> Drugs are bad. From dzonatas at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 13:42:43 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 13:42:43 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: <4C5C6A4C.7090008@gmail.com> References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> <08d48aafbd8b158c0f4c354ac580b48e@localhost> <4C5C6A4C.7090008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C5DC543.9070201@gmail.com> Dzonatas Sol wrote: > They've had an adult grid that is suppose to be fast, easy,... and fun. > > They've had an teen grid that is suppose to be ... easy... fast... clean? > > Sincerely, > > ___________________ Life > I believe I found a solution. The svn code should be for only "kids"... even people who decide to make their avatars like "kids"... so a split code base "right there" where the more known "adult" possibility can be found in the hg repository. I think that provides several options to get LL out of its corner. We know there is confusion between "shared" code base and "split" code base... yet we understand this. It's the same feel... they need to earn it to grow up... but its got to be their choice to know what they lost. Some have already taken that choice... .. they just haven't quite... you know. -- "........." [Fixt.] -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From marinekelley at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 13:42:51 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 22:42:51 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: <4C5DC543.9070201@gmail.com> References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> <08d48aafbd8b158c0f4c354ac580b48e@localhost> <4C5C6A4C.7090008@gmail.com> <4C5DC543.9070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: I check out the code of the viewer from svn and not hg... Does that make me a kid now ? On 7 August 2010 22:42, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > Dzonatas Sol wrote: > > They've had an adult grid that is suppose to be fast, easy,... and fun. > > > > They've had an teen grid that is suppose to be ... easy... fast... clean? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > ___________________ Life > > > > I believe I found a solution. > > The svn code should be for only "kids"... even people who decide to make > their avatars like "kids"... so a split code base "right there" where > the more known "adult" possibility can be found in the hg repository. > > I think that provides several options to get LL out of its corner. > > We know there is confusion between "shared" code base and "split" code > base... yet we understand this. > > It's the same feel... they need to earn it to grow up... but its got to > be their choice to know what they lost. Some have already taken that > choice... > > .. they just haven't quite... you know. > > -- "........." [Fixt.] > > > > > > -- > --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- > Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100807/a3ddda53/attachment.htm From aklo at skyhighway.com Sat Aug 7 14:03:17 2010 From: aklo at skyhighway.com (aklo at skyhighway.com) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 14:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine Message-ID: <9472ac84f4d0f107dc63d9caa895860f.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> i like what Dzon has to say more every time she has something new to contribute. Just sayin'. And to Fractured Crystal re: "Drugs are bad." In SL the usual psychoactive options (even alcohol) are obviously not an option. But, if you look at it like that SL is sorta like a drug. Is it bad? It is an altered state, and that's like the problem i have with Viewer 2 - it lessens the "immersion" that's important to me in SL. i know i'm all wierd & stuff, but SL isn't a "game" for me. It's an altered state of reality. It's taught me a lot about myself i never guessed at b4 and in some ways is better than acid or whatever - and trust me, that's something i *do* know about. Sorry for what lots will call off-topic input, but i think the pysche implications of what we're doing with SL are as important as the pure CS tech stuff, and deserve to be discussed in the same sort of context. Treating SL like nothing more than a "game" is trashing a lot of potential for the sake of a cheap thrill. So American, y'know? Once again, just sayin'. bye, AK Dzonatas Sol wrote: > > They've had an adult grid that is suppose to be fast, easy,... and fun. > > > > They've had an teen grid that is suppose to be ... easy... fast... clean? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > ___________________ Life > > I believe I found a solution. The svn code should be for only "kids"... even people who decide to make their avatars like "kids"... so a split code base "right there" where the more known "adult" possibility can be found in the hg repository. I think that provides several options to get LL out of its corner. We know there is confusion between "shared" code base and "split" code base... yet we understand this. It's the same feel... they need to earn it to grow up... but its got to be their choice to know what they lost. Some have already taken that choice... .. they just haven't quite... you know. -- "........." [Fixt.] From mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com Sat Aug 7 15:12:09 2010 From: mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com (mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 18:12:09 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: <4C5DC543.9070201@gmail.com> References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> <08d48aafbd8b158c0f4c354ac580b48e@localhost><4C5C6A4C.7090008@gmail.com> <4C5DC543.9070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <68C5A55DA1F342A7BEDC43D95E0D3E34@TWEEDY64> I guess it is time to unsubscribe from this group. I don't have time to read the constant flow of emails like this. -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Dzonatas Sol Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 4:43 PM To: Dzonatas Sol; opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com; Philip Rosedale Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine Dzonatas Sol wrote: > They've had an adult grid that is suppose to be fast, easy,... and fun. > > They've had an teen grid that is suppose to be ... easy... fast... clean? > > Sincerely, > > ___________________ Life > I believe I found a solution. The svn code should be for only "kids"... even people who decide to make their avatars like "kids"... so a split code base "right there" where the more known "adult" possibility can be found in the hg repository. I think that provides several options to get LL out of its corner. We know there is confusion between "shared" code base and "split" code base... yet we understand this. It's the same feel... they need to earn it to grow up... but its got to be their choice to know what they lost. Some have already taken that choice... .. they just haven't quite... you know. -- "........." [Fixt.] -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 16:43:13 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 01:43:13 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1.4 Showstopper: SNOW-799 Message-ID: Please your attention for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-799 The only reason I can currently think of that this might not be a showstopper is when it is caused by having 'Use HTTP textures' turned on... but shouldn't that be working with 1.4? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100808/a3735c19/attachment.htm From dzonatas at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 21:40:13 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:40:13 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1.4 Showstopper: SNOW-799 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5E352D.5030003@gmail.com> Hi, I had to think about what what untamed HTTP textures could do on the teen. /. had this article to say today: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/08/06/150216/Child-Porn-As-a-Weapon /"Want to get rid of your boss and move up to his position? Put kiddie porn on his computer then call the cops! This was the cunning plan envisaged by handyman Neil Weiner of east London after falling out with school caretaker Edward Thompson too many times. Thankfully, Weiner didn't cover his tracks quite well enough to avoid being found out ? earlier boasts about his plan to friends at a BBQ provided the police with enough evidence to arrest him for trying to pervert the course of justice. Frighteningly, however, between being charged with possession of indecent images and being exonerated, innocent (if 'grumpy') Thompson was abused and ostracized for eight months by neighbors and colleagues. With computer forensics for police work often being performed by 'point 'n click'-trained, nearly-retired cops, or languishing in a 6-month queue for private sector firms to attend to it, the uncomfortable question is raised: how easily might this trick have succeeded if Weiner had been a little more intelligent about it?" /Consider that I have known the internet completely untamed since a young age ... where does it begin to start to be accepted as "virgin"? Was it a contrite decision? Or, a luxury? I look at the world as if I'm looking into a vanity mirror... you decide. Aleric Inglewood wrote: > Please your attention for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-799 > > The only reason I can currently think of that this might not be a > showstopper is when > it is caused by having 'Use HTTP textures' turned on... but shouldn't > that be working with 1.4? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From chaosstar at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 03:32:43 2010 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 12:32:43 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: <68C5A55DA1F342A7BEDC43D95E0D3E34@TWEEDY64> References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> <08d48aafbd8b158c0f4c354ac580b48e@localhost> <4C5C6A4C.7090008@gmail.com> <4C5DC543.9070201@gmail.com> <68C5A55DA1F342A7BEDC43D95E0D3E34@TWEEDY64> Message-ID: Dzontas, Please do not post to this list intoxicated or on heavy medication, which you've seemed to be on for the last several days judging by the rather random and rather confusing (And quite confused sounding) content of your messages in several OSDEV topics. Thank you. On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 00:12, wrote: > I guess it is time to unsubscribe from this group. I don't have time to read > the constant flow of emails like this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com > [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Dzonatas > Sol > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 4:43 PM > To: Dzonatas Sol; opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com; Philip Rosedale > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine > > Dzonatas Sol wrote: >> They've had an adult grid that is suppose to be fast, easy,... and fun. >> >> They've had an teen grid that is suppose to be ... easy... fast... clean? >> >> Sincerely, >> >> ___________________ ?Life >> > > I believe I found a solution. > > The svn code should be for only "kids"... even people who decide to make > their avatars like "kids"... so a split code base "right there" where > the more known "adult" possibility can be found in the hg repository. > > I think that provides several options to get LL out of its corner. > > We know there is confusion between "shared" code base and "split" code > base... yet we understand this. > > It's the same feel... they need to earn it to grow up... but its got to > be their choice to know what they lost. Some have already taken that > choice... > > .. they just haven't quite... you know. > > -- "........." ?[Fixt.] > > > > > > -- > --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- > Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From open at autistici.org Sun Aug 8 03:46:26 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 12:46:26 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Offlist replies + Posting Policies and Guidelines Message-ID: * If someone else is violating mailing list policy, do not reply to them on the list. Reply to them offlist if you feel you need to engage them. * If you feel disciplinary action is required, send mail to the list administrator (). Engaging with them on-list may result in the moderation bit being set on your account. * Please remember the old mantra "praise in public, criticize in private". On-list reprimands are rarely of interest to the general mailing list. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Opensource Obscure From dzonatas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 07:52:14 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 07:52:14 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] V2.X & V1.X support on the same machine In-Reply-To: References: <4C5AD4FA.6050509@gmail.com> <08d48aafbd8b158c0f4c354ac580b48e@localhost> <4C5C6A4C.7090008@gmail.com> <4C5DC543.9070201@gmail.com> <68C5A55DA1F342A7BEDC43D95E0D3E34@TWEEDY64> Message-ID: <4C5EC49E.4000408@gmail.com> We already have scientific proof that I'm not the problem. If there is a problem, then help us work a solution. Blaming people doesn't help... it's unprofessional. This is on-topic because it directly involves the ability for Linden Labs to gain any income, which the affects the ability of related employees to earn their income, and which then affects your ability and other's ability to make any related income. "Someone is on drugs" is what I'll note about this... but I'm not the judge. Thanks for the concern. Ambrosia wrote: > Dzontas, > > Please do not post to this list intoxicated or on heavy medication, > which you've seemed to be on for the last several days judging by the > rather random and rather confusing (And quite confused sounding) > content of your messages in several OSDEV topics. > > Thank you. > > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From dzonatas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 10:22:12 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 10:22:12 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Offlist replies + Posting Policies and Guidelines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5EE7C4.3090909@gmail.com> Opensource, I understand what you mean, yet also take in account the angle of open source intelligence. It's almost exponential the amount of time people approach the same desired change to what has been made open source over and over. It's bankable. That's where I forced to schedule my time... it's no secret... It's open source! There is a difference between open source and open source software. One is obviously the precursor to the other. Sounds object oriented? Let's see how this sounds... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-800 "Massively duplicated objects" Didn't there used to be have a main grid problem with something.. that was the purpose for lag... how does that feel? http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/changeset/3614 "SNOW-800: Oops -- forgot to add sound_ids.cpp to SVN." Few universities decided to split up, and split up internally again. Those that teach a high degree of ag-biotech get hard lesson that you eventually find out they never expect anybody to complete. "Maybe you should go see a doctor about your problem..." That sounds like the answer... but I'm not thinking in sound. I admit, I'm visual... result? Bankable. What did they try to do... create a problem and then tell you the answer. "Let's make 1.4 the new teen grid... and bank on goo!" Done did for you. I think some others already know this style started to bank on it. I know that just minimized their ability to speak about it, yet they still threaten like above because they expect nobody to get it. Duh! Sounds like BSD style now... they (as in BSD they) got it! It's obvious... can't be patented. We learn what patents will never expire! I try to tell people and every thread I've ever posted how this cause connects to that effect gets taken down. Finally, they learn not to do that and bank on it. I can't bank on like they do, so... I know some at LL understand at least this much. Some for me, some for you! "Freakibility!" This sounds backwords, yet? Just don't even think about being able to find a reason not to leave this in public: Part of my Ag-Biotech explanations... it's like we bank on the dead. 6 feet under... eventually root of plants get there. Learn the "leylines"... They grow... And grow... And bloom... And you know... This is the critical part: And they grow again I beat you like pizza! I like hummus! They told me not to say, yet I got a solution, and they (here... like heh... LL knows...) already have had the question. "Bigger sphere?" I'm open minded to an answer... it all relates to this open source, now. It's legit even before official vote. I've already started to map... years ahead... wish you were hear! Opensource Obscure wrote: > * If someone else is violating mailing list policy, do not reply to them > on the list. Reply to them offlist if you feel you need to engage them. > > * If you feel disciplinary action is required, send mail to the list > administrator (). > Engaging with them on-list may result in the moderation bit being set on > your account. > > * Please remember the old mantra "praise in public, criticize in private". > On-list reprimands are rarely of interest to the general mailing list. > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > Opensource Obscure > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From sldev at free.fr Sun Aug 8 15:58:00 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 00:58:00 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Offlist replies + Posting Policies and Guidelines In-Reply-To: <4C5EE7C4.3090909@gmail.com> References: <4C5EE7C4.3090909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100809005800.bcf79b6f.sldev@free.fr> All this non-sense looks and sounds furiously like the gibberish that some so called "A.I." bots produce... If I were you, guys, I'd just stop feeding the bot, lol ! As for me, the bot's email is now part of my spam filter... On Sun, 08 Aug 2010 10:22:12 -0700, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > Opensource, I understand what you mean, yet also take in account the > angle of open source intelligence. > > It's almost exponential the amount of time people approach the same > desired change to what has been made open source over and over. It's > bankable. > > That's where I forced to schedule my time... it's no secret... It's open > source! There is a difference between open source and open source > software. One is obviously the precursor to the other. > > Sounds object oriented? > > Let's see how this sounds... > > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-800 > "Massively duplicated objects" > > Didn't there used to be have a main grid problem with something.. that > was the purpose for lag... how does that feel? > > http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/changeset/3614 > "SNOW-800: Oops -- forgot to add sound_ids.cpp to SVN." > > Few universities decided to split up, and split up internally again. > Those that teach a high degree of ag-biotech get hard lesson that you > eventually find out they never expect anybody to complete. > > "Maybe you should go see a doctor about your problem..." > > That sounds like the answer... but I'm not thinking in sound. I admit, > I'm visual... result? Bankable. > > What did they try to do... create a problem and then tell you the answer. > > "Let's make 1.4 the new teen grid... and bank on goo!" > > Done did for you. I think some others already know this style started to > bank on it. > > I know that just minimized their ability to speak about it, yet they > still threaten like above because they expect nobody to get it. > > Duh! Sounds like BSD style now... they (as in BSD they) got it! It's > obvious... can't be patented. > > We learn what patents will never expire! > > I try to tell people and every thread I've ever posted how this cause > connects to that effect gets taken down. Finally, they learn not to do > that and bank on it. I can't bank on like they do, so... I know some at > LL understand at least this much. > > Some for me, some for you! "Freakibility!" > > This sounds backwords, yet? > > Just don't even think about being able to find a reason not to leave > this in public: > Part of my Ag-Biotech explanations... it's like we bank on the dead. > 6 feet under... eventually root of plants get there. > Learn the "leylines"... > They grow... > And grow... > And bloom... > And you know... > > > This is the critical part: And they grow again > > I beat you like pizza! > > I like hummus! > > They told me not to say, yet I got a solution, and they (here... like > heh... LL knows...) already have had the question. "Bigger sphere?" > > I'm open minded to an answer... it all relates to this open source, > now. It's legit even before official vote. I've already started to > map... years ahead... wish you were hear! > > > Opensource Obscure wrote: > > * If someone else is violating mailing list policy, do not reply to them > > on the list. Reply to them offlist if you feel you need to engage them. > > > > * If you feel disciplinary action is required, send mail to the list > > administrator (). > > Engaging with them on-list may result in the moderation bit being set on > > your account. > > > > * Please remember the old mantra "praise in public, criticize in private". > > On-list reprimands are rarely of interest to the general mailing list. > > > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > > > > Opensource Obscure > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > > > > > From dzonatas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 17:35:43 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 17:35:43 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Offlist replies + Posting Policies and Guidelines In-Reply-To: <20100809005800.bcf79b6f.sldev@free.fr> References: <4C5EE7C4.3090909@gmail.com> <20100809005800.bcf79b6f.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C5F4D5F.5040702@gmail.com> It is a bot, now. The outcome of Project X was already known. It was a matter of time who would become the first for the last. Read the news today, they noticed a difference... It was that... or another grain of sand, lost. Henri Beauchamp wrote: > All this non-sense looks and sounds furiously like the gibberish that some > so called "A.I." bots produce... > If I were you, guys, I'd just stop feeding the bot, lol ! > As for me, the bot's email is now part of my spam filter... > > On Sun, 08 Aug 2010 10:22:12 -0700, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > > >> Opensource, I understand what you mean, yet also take in account the >> angle of open source intelligence. >> >> It's almost exponential the amount of time people approach the same >> desired change to what has been made open source over and over. It's >> bankable. >> >> That's where I forced to schedule my time... it's no secret... It's open >> source! There is a difference between open source and open source >> software. One is obviously the precursor to the other. >> >> Sounds object oriented? >> >> Let's see how this sounds... >> >> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-800 >> "Massively duplicated objects" >> >> Didn't there used to be have a main grid problem with something.. that >> was the purpose for lag... how does that feel? >> >> http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/changeset/3614 >> "SNOW-800: Oops -- forgot to add sound_ids.cpp to SVN." >> >> Few universities decided to split up, and split up internally again. >> Those that teach a high degree of ag-biotech get hard lesson that you >> eventually find out they never expect anybody to complete. >> >> "Maybe you should go see a doctor about your problem..." >> >> That sounds like the answer... but I'm not thinking in sound. I admit, >> I'm visual... result? Bankable. >> >> What did they try to do... create a problem and then tell you the answer. >> >> "Let's make 1.4 the new teen grid... and bank on goo!" >> >> Done did for you. I think some others already know this style started to >> bank on it. >> >> I know that just minimized their ability to speak about it, yet they >> still threaten like above because they expect nobody to get it. >> >> Duh! Sounds like BSD style now... they (as in BSD they) got it! It's >> obvious... can't be patented. >> >> We learn what patents will never expire! >> >> I try to tell people and every thread I've ever posted how this cause >> connects to that effect gets taken down. Finally, they learn not to do >> that and bank on it. I can't bank on like they do, so... I know some at >> LL understand at least this much. >> >> Some for me, some for you! "Freakibility!" >> >> This sounds backwords, yet? >> >> Just don't even think about being able to find a reason not to leave >> this in public: >> Part of my Ag-Biotech explanations... it's like we bank on the dead. >> 6 feet under... eventually root of plants get there. >> Learn the "leylines"... >> They grow... >> And grow... >> And bloom... >> And you know... >> >> >> This is the critical part: And they grow again >> >> I beat you like pizza! >> >> I like hummus! >> >> They told me not to say, yet I got a solution, and they (here... like >> heh... LL knows...) already have had the question. "Bigger sphere?" >> >> I'm open minded to an answer... it all relates to this open source, >> now. It's legit even before official vote. I've already started to >> map... years ahead... wish you were hear! >> >> >> Opensource Obscure wrote: >> >>> * If someone else is violating mailing list policy, do not reply to them >>> on the list. Reply to them offlist if you feel you need to engage them. >>> >>> * If you feel disciplinary action is required, send mail to the list >>> administrator (). >>> Engaging with them on-list may result in the moderation bit being set on >>> your account. >>> >>> * Please remember the old mantra "praise in public, criticize in private". >>> On-list reprimands are rarely of interest to the general mailing list. >>> >>> https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> >>> >>> Opensource Obscure >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >>> >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From jessesa at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 17:56:46 2010 From: jessesa at gmail.com (Jesse Barnett) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 20:56:46 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Offlist replies + Posting Policies and Guidelines In-Reply-To: <20100809005800.bcf79b6f.sldev@free.fr> References: <4C5EE7C4.3090909@gmail.com> <20100809005800.bcf79b6f.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: I think you hit the nail on the head. Dzontas experiment gone wrong? Jesse Barnett On Sunday, August 8, 2010, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > All this non-sense looks and sounds furiously like the gibberish that some > so called "A.I." bots produce... > If I were you, guys, I'd just stop feeding the bot, lol ! > As for me, the bot's email is now part of my spam filter. From dzonatas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 18:26:16 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 18:26:16 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Offlist replies + Posting Policies and Guidelines In-Reply-To: References: <4C5EE7C4.3090909@gmail.com> <20100809005800.bcf79b6f.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C5F5938.6060301@gmail.com> More like, as all the physicist at CERN in the loop, it was asked "What could possible go wrong?" Their problem, they never thought in the reciprocal of the finite, so they assume the infinite didn't exist. Some wondered, even if someone finds the impossible dream, what more could you ask for? How about the impossibility to for not knowing everything about the infinite... then figure out how you solved that. Hint: virginity! Easy. What's hard about this? That's your problem. Next (in the loop).... Jesse Barnett wrote: > I think you hit the nail on the head. Dzontas experiment gone wrong? > > Jesse Barnett > > On Sunday, August 8, 2010, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > >> All this non-sense looks and sounds furiously like the gibberish that some >> so called "A.I." bots produce... >> If I were you, guys, I'd just stop feeding the bot, lol ! >> As for me, the bot's email is now part of my spam filter. >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 19:30:07 2010 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 23:30:07 -0300 Subject: [opensource-dev] Offlist replies + Posting Policies and Guidelines In-Reply-To: <4C5F5938.6060301@gmail.com> References: <4C5EE7C4.3090909@gmail.com> <20100809005800.bcf79b6f.sldev@free.fr> <4C5F5938.6060301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C5F682F.20204@Gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 It seems indeed it is a bot, didn't even question when you accused it of not being human. On 8/8/2010 22:26, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > More like, as all the physicist at CERN in the loop, it was asked "What > could possible go wrong?" > > Their problem, they never thought in the reciprocal of the finite, so > they assume the infinite didn't exist. > > Some wondered, even if someone finds the impossible dream, what more > could you ask for? > > How about the impossibility to for not knowing everything about the > infinite... then figure out how you solved that. Hint: virginity! > > Easy. > > What's hard about this? > > That's your problem. > > Next (in the loop).... > > > Jesse Barnett wrote: >> I think you hit the nail on the head. Dzontas experiment gone wrong? >> >> Jesse Barnett >> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2010, Henri Beauchamp wrote: >> >>> All this non-sense looks and sounds furiously like the gibberish that some >>> so called "A.I." bots produce... >>> If I were you, guys, I'd just stop feeding the bot, lol ! >>> As for me, the bot's email is now part of my spam filter. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAkxfZ7cACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmUsuwCfZumcLT6p2b7utFAJznN29h3q K7EAn1aDCpKC5rInwNRDp73Qv8yVSDnw =bdjR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Aug 13 11:49:39 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:49:39 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Viewer Development Announcements Message-ID: <4C6593C3.3070507@lindenlab.com> As most of you probably know by now, from all the hint-dropping we've been doing, we've got some announcements to make. Here's how it's going to go - on Sunday, the viewer development leads will be the noon (EDT) keynote address at SLCC. You can watch and listen at any of the following in-world locations: *Imperial Ballroom / The Hatch* - http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/245/8/23 *The Whitehall Room* - http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%203/136/161/31 *Stuart Room* - http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/158/149/31 *Thoreau Room* - http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/158/149/31 *St. James Room* - http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%202/176/42/24 *Whittier Room* - http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%204/183/239/25 You will need to be running a viewer that supports media on a prim. It's possible that we'll be able to take questions from in-world as well - I'm not sure. I will also be posting an announcement to this list some time shortly before that presentation, and at that time there will also be documentation and other resources publicly available. My normal office hours for Monday are being replaced with a two hour open in-world meeting in the nearby Open Source Park from Noon to 2PM SLT: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/37/233/22 I hope that as many of you as possible will join us. We're confident that the changes we've made are the beginning of a new and much better way of doing things both for Linden Lab and for the open source community. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100813/3f7dec42/attachment.htm From kadah.coba at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 09:11:22 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah Coba) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:11:22 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Viewer Development Announcements In-Reply-To: <4C6593C3.3070507@lindenlab.com> References: <4C6593C3.3070507@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C6811AA.2020306@gmail.com> Looks like the time and location was changed to 1PM EDT, which is 10AM SLT. Wish I had checked this before hand, I could have used the extra sleep ;P St James Room - http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%202/176/64/24 On 8/13/2010 11:49 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > As most of you probably know by now, from all the hint-dropping we've > been doing, we've got some announcements to make. Here's how it's > going to go - on Sunday, the viewer development leads will be the noon > (EDT) keynote address at SLCC. You can watch and listen at any of the > following in-world locations: > > *Imperial Ballroom / The Hatch* - > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/245/8/23 > > *The Whitehall Room* - > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%203/136/161/31 > > *Stuart Room* - > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/158/149/31 > > *Thoreau Room* - > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/158/149/31 > > *St. James Room* - > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%202/176/42/24 > > *Whittier Room* - > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%204/183/239/25 > > You will need to be running a viewer that supports media on a prim. > It's possible that we'll be able to take questions from in-world as > well - I'm not sure. > > I will also be posting an announcement to this list some time shortly > before that presentation, and at that time there will also be > documentation and other resources publicly available. > > My normal office hours for Monday are being replaced with a two hour > open in-world meeting in the nearby Open Source Park from Noon to 2PM SLT: > > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/37/233/22 > > I hope that as many of you as possible will join us. We're confident > that the changes we've made are the beginning of a new and much better > way of doing things both for Linden Lab and for the open source community. > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100815/6e94e6b8/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Sun Aug 15 09:25:21 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:25:21 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement Message-ID: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> What?s Next For The Second Life Viewer? Linden Lab spent the better part of the last two years revamping the Second Life Viewer to create Viewer 2. Some of the changes were important new features, and some were controversial - some were both. The bulk of the design and engineering work was done with only limited, indirect participation from the open source and resident communities, which has left many in those communities feeling alienated and disenfranchised. In recent months we have released both Viewer 2 and a 2.1 update; Linden Lab has also been through a major reorganization. We are now evaluating the results of all of this work, and we are making significant changes to the way we design and build the viewer. Introducing Snowstorm Linden Lab has created a new team whose goal is to develop the Second Life Viewer in the open and in response to the needs of our Residents. Here are our goals: Show Residents continuous visible progress Work in the open by sharing not only our code, but our process publicly -- this includes our backlog and our discussion about it. Engage with the open source community and aggressively accept good work the community does into our product. Release new ?Development? Viewers frequently -- our initial target is bi-weekly. All builds from the ?Development? branch are visible and available for testing. Improve the user experience Make continuous improvements to the design and implementation of the Viewer?s user interface. Import desirable patches and features from Snowglobe and other Third Party Viewers. Add small features and fixes that have high value and low cost, while still remaining consistent with an overall product vision. Renew and deepen our relationship with the community Integrate community work directly into our main line Viewer rather than routing it through Snowglobe first. Demonstrate rapid responsiveness to feedback and patches from community. Engage continuously with the community to develop new project proposals and provide resources that open source developers need to be effective. How Snowstorm Works Viewer development has moved to a single open source model There are no longer internal ?private? and external ?public? versions. Viewer source (with the exception of one wrapper library we cannot legally release), is now in public Mercurial source repositories. All viewer integration is happening in the Development repository at ?http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development?. It is used by all Linden Lab viewer development teams, and open source developers are encouraged to pull from that repository and submit changes for integration to it. Code in the Development repository is now released under version 2 of the GNU LGPL This allows community developers greater freedom to use the viewer code, including incorporating it into products that also include closed source. Accepted contributions go directly into the official Second Life Viewer There is no longer a two-step process of contributing to Snowglobe and then hoping that the contribution is imported to the Linden viewer. Viewer development efforts within Linden Lab go through the same integration queue and into the same repository that open source contributions use. Innovations from Snowglobe are being imported to this new viewer Some changes may be left behind or modified in order to fit into Viewer 2; Linden Lab will work with open source contributors to harmonize contributions with the product goals of the Linden viewer. The plan is to import as much as possible of the excellent work that has been done in Snowglobe as quickly as possible (this rate does depend on help from you). Snowstorm team plans and priorities are open We publish both what we?re working on (in public Jira issues and on our Sprint Backlog) and the projects we?d like to do (our Product Backlog). These projects are available for open source contributors to take on, and the Snowstorm team coordinates getting access to any Linden review and collaboration resources that are needed. Community members are encouraged to propose additions to the Product Backlog. Who Is Building The Viewer? Within Linden Lab, many different groups are doing Viewer development; the Snowstorm team manages the Development branch, coordinates contributions from open source, and does rapid small feature development itself. Snowstorm is: Q Linden - Tech Lead, Team Lead Esbee Linden - Product/Business Lead Oz Linden - Open Source Lead Merov, Aimee, Tofu, and three external contract developers and, crucially, the open source community. Where Are The Details? Snowstorm operates in the open; the home page of the Snowstorm team is on the public wiki at https://wiki.secondlife.com/Snowstorm_Team it has pointers to our various communications channels, processes, and contact information. The Snowstorm Team leads will be at the Second Life Community Convention on Aug 15, and will hold an open in-world meeting Aug 16 at the Hippotropolis Theater from Noon to 2PM SLT: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/239/28/24 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100815/35ee52dd/attachment-0001.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Sun Aug 15 09:36:34 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:36:34 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fwd: Successful Build Nr. 208114 for oz_viewer-development (39db065f8899) on Darwin References: <20100815161839.BEA1BE2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> Message-ID: The first build of the new open Development repo is available now. Begin forwarded message: > From: buildadmin at lindenlab.com > Date: August 15, 2010 12:18:39 EDT > To: oz at lindenlab.com > Subject: Successful Build Nr. 208114 for oz_viewer-development (39db065f8899) on Darwin > > > > urls: > installer_Darwin(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/installer/SecondLife_2_1_1_208114_DEVELOPMENT.dmg > installer_Darwin(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/installer/SecondLife_2_1_1_208114_DEVELOPMENT.dmg > status_Darwin(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/status/true > status_Darwin(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/status/true > log_Darwin(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/log/build_log.13.txt > log_Darwin(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/log/build_log.13.txt > buildparams_Darwin(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > buildparams_Darwin(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > > urls: > installer_Linux(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/installer/SecondLife-i686-2.1.1.208114.tar.bz2 > installer_Linux(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/installer/SecondLife-i686-2.1.1.208114.tar.bz2 > status_Linux(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/status/true > status_Linux(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/status/true > log_Linux(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/log/build_log.11.txt > log_Linux(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/log/build_log.11.txt > buildparams_Linux(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > buildparams_Linux(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > > urls: > installer_CYGWIN(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/installer/Second_Life_2-1-1-208114_Development_Setup.exe > installer_CYGWIN(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/installer/Second_Life_2-1-1-208114_Development_Setup.exe > status_CYGWIN(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/status/true > status_CYGWIN(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/status/true > log_CYGWIN(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/log/build_log.8.txt > log_CYGWIN(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/log/build_log.8.txt > buildparams_CYGWIN(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > buildparams_CYGWIN(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > > > All Build Products: > Proxy: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/index.html > S3: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100815/18730080/attachment.htm From gwynn.gunawan at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 09:43:21 2010 From: gwynn.gunawan at gmail.com (Gwynn Gunawan) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:43:21 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Gang, ok, sorry, cool, but I still feel uncomfortable. Viewer 2 was for users, less so for creators. Creating got harder. I might be cursing in church but 'd like to see a Viewer, for Joe Random Sixpack crossing the street, and a Creator. You don't create web pages in a browser. You don't create video's in youtube. "If you would also like to create content for Second Life, click here to download the additional tools" I don't, in general, like to fork. I like the way LL is heading with this, and it's OS commitment but I'm starting to think we try to kill too many birds with not enough stones. Also, I'm now in a pub (in Glasgow) and respond a bit impulsively. regards ~gg On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 5:25 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > What?s Next For The Second Life Viewer? > > Linden Lab spent the better part of the last two years revamping the Second > Life Viewer to create Viewer 2. Some of the changes were important new > features, and some were controversial - some were both. The bulk of the > design and engineering work was done with only limited, indirect > participation from the open source and resident communities, which has left > many in those communities feeling alienated and disenfranchised. > In recent months we have released both Viewer 2 and a 2.1 update; Linden Lab > has also been through a major reorganization. We are now evaluating the > results of all of this work, and we are making significant changes to the > way we design and build the viewer. > > Introducing Snowstorm > > Linden Lab has created a new team whose goal is to develop the Second Life > Viewer in the open and in response to the needs of our Residents. Here are > our goals: > > Show Residents continuous visible progress > > Work in the open by sharing not only our code, but our process publicly -- > this includes our backlog and our discussion about it. > Engage with the open source community and aggressively accept good work the > community does into our product. > Release new ?Development? Viewers frequently -- our initial target is > bi-weekly. ?All builds from the ?Development? branch are visible and > available for testing. > > Improve the user experience > > Make continuous improvements to the design and implementation of the > Viewer?s user interface. > Import desirable patches and features from Snowglobe and other Third Party > Viewers. > Add small features and fixes that have high value and low cost, while still > remaining consistent with an overall product vision. > > Renew and deepen our relationship with the community > > Integrate community work directly into our main line Viewer rather than > routing it through Snowglobe first. > Demonstrate rapid responsiveness to feedback and patches from community. > Engage continuously with the community to develop new project proposals and > provide resources that open source developers need to be effective. > > How Snowstorm Works > > Viewer development has moved to a single open source model > > There are no longer internal ?private? and external ?public? versions. > Viewer source (with the exception of one wrapper library we cannot legally > release), is now in public Mercurial source repositories. All viewer > integration is happening in the Development repository at > ?http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development?. It is used by all Linden Lab > viewer development teams, and open source developers are encouraged to pull > from that repository and submit changes for integration to it. > > Code in the Development repository is now released under version 2 of the > GNU LGPL > > This allows community developers greater freedom to use the viewer code, > including incorporating it into products that also include closed source. > > Accepted contributions go directly into the official Second Life Viewer > > There is no longer a two-step process of contributing to Snowglobe and then > hoping that the contribution is imported to the Linden viewer. Viewer > development efforts within Linden Lab go through the same integration queue > and into the same repository that open source contributions use. > > Innovations from Snowglobe are being imported to this new viewer > > Some changes may be left behind or modified in order to fit into Viewer 2; > Linden Lab will work with open source contributors to harmonize > contributions with the product goals of the Linden viewer. The plan is to > import as much as possible of the excellent work that has been done in > Snowglobe as quickly as possible (this rate does depend on help from you). > > Snowstorm team plans and priorities are open > > We publish both what we?re working on (in public Jira issues and on our > Sprint Backlog) and the projects we?d like to do (our Product Backlog). > These projects are available for open source contributors to take on, and > the Snowstorm team coordinates getting access to any Linden review and > collaboration resources that are needed. Community members are encouraged to > propose additions to the Product Backlog. > > Who Is Building The Viewer? > > Within Linden Lab, many different groups are doing Viewer development; the > Snowstorm team manages the Development branch, coordinates contributions > from open source, and does rapid small feature development itself. > Snowstorm is: > > Q Linden - Tech Lead, Team Lead > Esbee Linden - Product/Business Lead > Oz Linden - Open Source Lead > Merov, Aimee, Tofu, and three external contract developers > and, crucially, the open source community. > > Where Are The Details? > > Snowstorm operates in the open; the home page of the Snowstorm team is on > the public wiki at > https://wiki.secondlife.com/Snowstorm_Team > it has pointers to our various communications channels, processes, and > contact information. > > The Snowstorm Team leads will be at the Second Life Community Convention on > Aug 15, and will hold an open in-world meeting Aug 16 at the Hippotropolis > Theater from Noon to 2PM SLT: > http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/239/28/24 > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Don't fight back. Fight forward. From kadah.coba at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 10:04:36 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah Coba) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:04:36 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Viewer Development Announcements In-Reply-To: <4C6811AA.2020306@gmail.com> References: <4C6593C3.3070507@lindenlab.com> <4C6811AA.2020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C681E24.40806@gmail.com> Nevermind, looks like the first board at the landing spot had times in some other timezone and it was at 7am SLT so I missed it. Any recordings, transcriptions of the this? On 8/15/2010 9:11 AM, Kadah Coba wrote: > Looks like the time and location was changed to 1PM EDT, which is 10AM > SLT. Wish I had checked this before hand, I could have used the extra > sleep ;P > > St James Room - http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%202/176/64/24 > > > On 8/13/2010 11:49 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> As most of you probably know by now, from all the hint-dropping we've >> been doing, we've got some announcements to make. Here's how it's >> going to go - on Sunday, the viewer development leads will be the >> noon (EDT) keynote address at SLCC. You can watch and listen at any >> of the following in-world locations: >> >> *Imperial Ballroom / The Hatch* - >> http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/245/8/23 >> >> *The Whitehall Room* - >> http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%203/136/161/31 >> >> *Stuart Room* - >> http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/158/149/31 >> >> *Thoreau Room* - >> http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%201/158/149/31 >> >> *St. James Room* - >> http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%202/176/42/24 >> >> *Whittier Room* - >> http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SLCC%204/183/239/25 >> >> You will need to be running a viewer that supports media on a prim. >> It's possible that we'll be able to take questions from in-world as >> well - I'm not sure. >> >> I will also be posting an announcement to this list some time shortly >> before that presentation, and at that time there will also be >> documentation and other resources publicly available. >> >> My normal office hours for Monday are being replaced with a two hour >> open in-world meeting in the nearby Open Source Park from Noon to 2PM >> SLT: >> >> http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/37/233/22 >> >> I hope that as many of you as possible will join us. We're confident >> that the changes we've made are the beginning of a new and much >> better way of doing things both for Linden Lab and for the open >> source community. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100815/456c09e1/attachment-0001.htm From max at maxmarch.com Sun Aug 15 10:29:06 2010 From: max at maxmarch.com (Maximilian March) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:29:06 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: *"Snowstorm operates in the open; the home page of the Snowstorm team is on the public wiki at" A BROKEN LINK!** * NOT a very reassuring feeling that the very first call-to-action link in such an important communication leads us to... a broken link. Thank you, LL QA people, for being asleep at the wheel as usual. Well, at least you're consistent. ~The Original M~ On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > > What?s Next For The Second Life Viewer? Linden Lab spent the better part > of the last two years revamping the Second Life Viewer to create Viewer 2. > Some of the changes were important new features, and some were controversial > - some were both. The bulk of the design and engineering work was done with > only limited, indirect participation from the open source and resident > communities, which has left many in those communities feeling alienated and > disenfranchised. > In recent months we have released both Viewer 2 and a 2.1 update; Linden > Lab has also been through a major reorganization. We are now evaluating the > results of all of this work, and we are making significant changes to the > way we design and build the viewer. > Introducing Snowstorm Linden Lab has created a new team whose goal is to > develop the Second Life Viewer in the open and in response to the needs of > our Residents. Here are our goals: > > - Show Residents continuous visible progress > - Work in the open by sharing not only our code, but our process > publicly -- this includes our backlog and our discussion about it. > - Engage with the open source community and aggressively accept good > work the community does into our product. > - Release new ?Development? Viewers frequently -- our initial target > is bi-weekly. All builds from the ?Development? branch are visible and > available for testing. > > > - Improve the user experience > - Make continuous improvements to the design and implementation of > the Viewer?s user interface. > - Import desirable patches and features from Snowglobe and other > Third Party Viewers. > - Add small features and fixes that have high value and low cost, > while still remaining consistent with an overall product vision. > - Renew and deepen our relationship with the community > - Integrate community work directly into our main line Viewer rather > than routing it through Snowglobe first. > - Demonstrate rapid responsiveness to feedback and patches from > community. > - Engage continuously with the community to develop new project > proposals and provide resources that open source developers need to be > effective. > > > How Snowstorm Works > > - Viewer development has moved to a single open source model > > > - There are no longer internal ?private? and external ?public? > versions. Viewer source (with the exception of one wrapper library we cannot > legally release), is now in public Mercurial source repositories. All viewer > integration is happening in the Development repository at ? > http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development?. It is used by all > Linden Lab viewer development teams, and open source developers are > encouraged to pull from that repository and submit changes for integration > to it. > > > - Code in the Development repository is now released under version 2 of > the GNU LGPL > > This allows community developers greater freedom to use the viewer code, > including incorporating it into products that also include closed source. > > - Accepted contributions go directly into the official Second Life > Viewer > > There is no longer a two-step process of contributing to Snowglobe and then > hoping that the contribution is imported to the Linden viewer. Viewer > development efforts within Linden Lab go through the same integration queue > and into the same repository that open source contributions use. > > - Innovations from Snowglobe are being imported to this new viewer > > > - Some changes may be left behind or modified in order to fit into > Viewer 2; Linden Lab will work with open source contributors to harmonize > contributions with the product goals of the Linden viewer. The plan is to > import as much as possible of the excellent work that has been done in > Snowglobe as quickly as possible (this rate does depend on help from > you). > > > - Snowstorm team plans and priorities are open > > We publish both what we?re working on (in public Jira issues and on our > Sprint Backlog) and the projects we?d like to do (our Product Backlog). > These projects are available for open source contributors to take on, and > the Snowstorm team coordinates getting access to any Linden review and > collaboration resources that are needed. Community members are encouraged to > propose additions to the Product Backlog. > Who Is Building The Viewer? Within Linden Lab, many different groups are > doing Viewer development; the Snowstorm team manages the Development branch, > coordinates contributions from open source, and does rapid small feature > development itself. > Snowstorm is: > > - Q Linden - Tech Lead, Team Lead > - Esbee Linden - Product/Business Lead > - Oz Linden - Open Source Lead > - Merov, Aimee, Tofu, and three external contract developers > - and, crucially, the open source community. > > > Where Are The Details? Snowstorm operates in the open; the home page of > the Snowstorm team is on the public wiki at > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/Snowstorm_Team > it has pointers to our various communications channels, processes, and > contact information. > > The Snowstorm Team leads will be at the Second Life Community Convention on > Aug 15, and will hold an open in-world meeting Aug 16 at the Hippotropolis > Theater from Noon to 2PM SLT: > > http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/239/28/24 > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100815/3ef889e3/attachment-0001.htm From kadah.coba at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 10:31:48 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah Coba) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:31:48 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C682484.5060207@gmail.com> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Team http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Project It was just malformed formed, the document is easily enough to find. On 8/15/2010 10:29 AM, Maximilian March wrote: > /*"Snowstorm operates in the open; the home page of the Snowstorm team > is on the public wiki at" A BROKEN LINK!*/* > * > NOT a very reassuring feeling that the very first call-to-action link > in such an important communication leads us to... a broken link. > > Thank you, LL QA people, for being asleep at the wheel as usual. Well, > at least you're consistent. > > ~The Original M~ > > > On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) > > wrote: > > > What?s Next For The Second Life Viewer? > > Linden Lab spent the better part of the last two years revamping > the Second Life Viewer to create Viewer 2. Some of the changes > were important new features, and some were controversial - some > were both. The bulk of the design and engineering work was done > with only limited, indirect participation from the open source and > resident communities, which has left many in those communities > feeling alienated and disenfranchised. > In recent months we have released both Viewer 2 and a 2.1 update; > Linden Lab has also been through a major reorganization. We are > now evaluating the results of all of this work, and we are making > significant changes to the way we design and build the viewer. > > > Introducing Snowstorm > > Linden Lab has created a new team whose goal is to develop the > Second Life Viewer in the open and in response to the needs of our > Residents. Here are our goals: > > * Show Residents continuous visible progress > o Work in the open by sharing not only our code, but our > process publicly -- this includes our backlog and our > discussion about it. > o Engage with the open source community and aggressively > accept good work the community does into our product. > o Release new ?Development? Viewers frequently -- our > initial target is bi-weekly. All builds from the > ?Development? branch are visible and available for > testing. > > * Improve the user experience > o Make continuous improvements to the design and > implementation of the Viewer?s user interface. > o Import desirable patches and features from Snowglobe > and other Third Party Viewers. > o Add small features and fixes that have high value and > low cost, while still remaining consistent with an > overall product vision. > * Renew and deepen our relationship with the community > o Integrate community work directly into our main line > Viewer rather than routing it through Snowglobe first. > o Demonstrate rapid responsiveness to feedback and > patches from community. > o Engage continuously with the community to develop new > project proposals and provide resources that open > source developers need to be effective. > > > How Snowstorm Works > > * Viewer development has moved to a single open source model > > o There are no longer internal ?private? and external > ?public? versions. Viewer source (with the exception > of one wrapper library we cannot legally release), is > now in public Mercurial source repositories. All > viewer integration is happening in the Development > repository at > ?http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development?. It is > used by all Linden Lab viewer development teams, and > open source developers are encouraged to pull from > that repository and submit changes for integration to it. > > * Code in the Development repository is now released under > version 2 of the GNU LGPL > > This allows community developers greater freedom to use the viewer > code, including incorporating it into products that also include > closed source. > > * Accepted contributions go directly into the official Second > Life Viewer > > There is no longer a two-step process of contributing to Snowglobe > and then hoping that the contribution is imported to the Linden > viewer. Viewer development efforts within Linden Lab go through > the same integration queue and into the same repository that open > source contributions use. > > * Innovations from Snowglobe are being imported to this new viewer > > o Some changes may be left behind or modified in order > to fit into Viewer 2; Linden Lab will work with open > source contributors to harmonize contributions with > the product goals of the Linden viewer. The plan is to > import as much as possible of the excellent work that > has been done in Snowglobe as quickly as possible > (this rate does depend on help from you). > > * Snowstorm team plans and priorities are open > > We publish both what we?re working on (in public Jira issues and > on our Sprint Backlog) and the projects we?d like to do (our > Product Backlog). These projects are available for open source > contributors to take on, and the Snowstorm team coordinates > getting access to any Linden review and collaboration resources > that are needed. Community members are encouraged to propose > additions to the Product Backlog. > > > Who Is Building The Viewer? > > Within Linden Lab, many different groups are doing Viewer > development; the Snowstorm team manages the Development branch, > coordinates contributions from open source, and does rapid small > feature development itself. > Snowstorm is: > > * Q Linden - Tech Lead, Team Lead > * Esbee Linden - Product/Business Lead > * Oz Linden - Open Source Lead > * Merov, Aimee, Tofu, and three external contract developers > * and, crucially, the open source community. > > > Where Are The Details? > > Snowstorm operates in the open; the home page of the Snowstorm > team is on the public wiki at > https://wiki.secondlife.com/Snowstorm_Team > it has pointers to our various communications channels, processes, > and contact information. > > The Snowstorm Team leads will be at the Second Life Community > Convention on Aug 15, and will hold an open in-world meeting Aug > 16 at the Hippotropolis Theater from Noon to 2PM SLT: > http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/239/28/24 > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100815/70f8bff3/attachment-0001.htm From gcanaday at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 11:01:35 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 14:01:35 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <1281895295.2030.5.camel@glen-desktop> This does sound much better than the previous way of doing things - more open and closer to the Bazaar, etc., but I want to ask how it came about. What was the impetus? Is this a direct result of Phil's return to more active involvement with LL in general? Is it simply the desire of the devs added to opportunity and freedom thus made into reality? --GC On Sun, 2010-08-15 at 12:25 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > What?s Next For The Second Life Viewer? > Linden Lab spent the better part of the last two years revamping the > Second Life Viewer to create Viewer 2. Some of the changes were > important new features, and some were controversial - some were both. > The bulk of the design and engineering work was done with only > limited, indirect participation from the open source and resident > communities, which has left many in those communities feeling > alienated and disenfranchised. > In recent months we have released both Viewer 2 and a 2.1 update; > Linden Lab has also been through a major reorganization. We are now > evaluating the results of all of this work, and we are making > significant changes to the way we design and build the viewer. > > Introducing Snowstorm > Linden Lab has created a new team whose goal is to develop the Second > Life Viewer in the open and in response to the needs of our Residents. > Here are our goals: > * Show Residents continuous visible progress > * Work in the open by sharing not only our code, but our > process publicly -- this includes our backlog and our > discussion about it. > * Engage with the open source community and aggressively > accept good work the community does into our product. > * Release new ?Development? Viewers frequently -- our > initial target is bi-weekly. All builds from the > ?Development? branch are visible and available for > testing. > * Improve the user experience > * Make continuous improvements to the design and > implementation of the Viewer?s user interface. > * Import desirable patches and features from Snowglobe > and other Third Party Viewers. > * Add small features and fixes that have high value and > low cost, while still remaining consistent with an > overall product vision. > * Renew and deepen our relationship with the community > * Integrate community work directly into our main line > Viewer rather than routing it through Snowglobe > first. > * Demonstrate rapid responsiveness to feedback and > patches from community. > * Engage continuously with the community to develop new > project proposals and provide resources that open > source developers need to be effective. > > > How Snowstorm Works > * Viewer development has moved to a single open source model > * There are no longer internal ?private? and external > ?public? versions. Viewer source (with the exception > of one wrapper library we cannot legally release), is > now in public Mercurial source repositories. All > viewer integration is happening in the Development > repository at > ?http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development?. It is > used by all Linden Lab viewer development teams, and > open source developers are encouraged to pull from > that repository and submit changes for integration to > it. > * Code in the Development repository is now released under > version 2 of the GNU LGPL > > This allows community developers greater freedom to use the viewer > code, including incorporating it into products that also include > closed source. > > * Accepted contributions go directly into the official Second > Life Viewer > > There is no longer a two-step process of contributing to Snowglobe and > then hoping that the contribution is imported to the Linden viewer. > Viewer development efforts within Linden Lab go through the same > integration queue and into the same repository that open source > contributions use. > > * Innovations from Snowglobe are being imported to this new > viewer > * Some changes may be left behind or modified in order > to fit into Viewer 2; Linden Lab will work with open > source contributors to harmonize contributions with > the product goals of the Linden viewer. The plan is to > import as much as possible of the excellent work that > has been done in Snowglobe as quickly as possible > (this rate does depend on help from you). > * Snowstorm team plans and priorities are open > > We publish both what we?re working on (in public Jira issues and on > our Sprint Backlog) and the projects we?d like to do (our Product > Backlog). These projects are available for open source contributors to > take on, and the Snowstorm team coordinates getting access to any > Linden review and collaboration resources that are needed. Community > members are encouraged to propose additions to the Product Backlog. > > > Who Is Building The Viewer? > Within Linden Lab, many different groups are doing Viewer development; > the Snowstorm team manages the Development branch, coordinates > contributions from open source, and does rapid small feature > development itself. > Snowstorm is: > * Q Linden - Tech Lead, Team Lead > * Esbee Linden - Product/Business Lead > * Oz Linden - Open Source Lead > * Merov, Aimee, Tofu, and three external contract developers > * and, crucially, the open source community. > > > Where Are The Details? > Snowstorm operates in the open; the home page of the Snowstorm team is > on the public wiki at > https://wiki.secondlife.com/Snowstorm_Team > it has pointers to our various communications channels, processes, and > contact information. > > The Snowstorm Team leads will be at the Second Life Community > Convention on Aug 15, and will hold an open in-world meeting Aug 16 at > the Hippotropolis Theater from Noon to 2PM SLT: > http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/239/28/24 > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From javajoint at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 15:26:40 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:26:40 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snow Storm / Mac, missing file? Message-ID: Hello, thought I would try building the newest source... not seeing directions.. Did this: hg clone http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development bucky:linden dls$ pwd /usr/local/src/slviewer/linden bucky:linden dls$ ls BuildParams indra build.sh install.xml doc scripts etc viewer-hg-convert.shamap poked around.. ok, this looks like the one: bucky:linden dls$ ./scripts/automated_build_scripts/opensrc-build.sh + export PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/Users/dls/.nvm/v0.1.96/bin:/opt/local/bin:/opt/local/sbin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/X11/bin [..... etc.....] + cd ./scripts/automated_build_scripts/./../.. + test -x ../linden/scripts/automated_build_scripts/opensrc-build.sh + . doc/asset_urls.txt ./scripts/automated_build_scripts/opensrc-build.sh: line 139: doc/asset_urls.txt: No such file or directory I dont see asset_urls.txt anywhere in the tree. I also saw reference to parabuild.. and: bucky:linden dls$ hg clone http://hg.lindenlab.com/parabuild/buildscripts abort: error: Operation timed out So, am I just trying to build this too early, or are there some missing files/components? cheers, Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100815/4fa4395b/attachment.htm From aimee at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 05:36:03 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:36:03 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snow Storm / Mac, missing file? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21848424-6C0C-4FC7-A732-D8D794C2D08F@lindenlab.com> assets.txt is no longer required, as the contents of the bundles it downloads are now present in the source repo. Assuming you're on 32-bit LInux, try just doing: cd indra ./develop.py configure ./develop.py build There are still a number of issues you may run into as yet, the most probable being a few with GCC versions > 4.1. I'm intending to bring the fixes for those in from Snowglobe as soon as possible. Aimee. On 15 Aug 2010, at 23:26, Daniel Smith wrote: > > Hello, thought I would try building the newest source... not seeing directions.. > > Did this: From zak.escher at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 05:39:08 2010 From: zak.escher at gmail.com (Zak Escher) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:39:08 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fwd: Successful Build Nr. 208114 for oz_viewer-development (39db065f8899) on Darwin In-Reply-To: References: <20100815161839.BEA1BE2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Thanks for these links. However, when I try to run the Windows build, it crashes when the main viewer window should appear. Zak On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Oz Linden wrote: > > The first build of the new open Development repo is available now. > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From:* buildadmin at lindenlab.com > *Date:* August 15, 2010 12:18:39 EDT > *To:* oz at lindenlab.com > *Subject:* *Successful Build Nr. 208114 for oz_viewer-development > (39db065f8899) on Darwin* > > > > urls: > installer_Darwin(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/installer/SecondLife_2_1_1_208114_DEVELOPMENT.dmg > installer_Darwin(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/installer/SecondLife_2_1_1_208114_DEVELOPMENT.dmg > status_Darwin(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/status/true > status_Darwin(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/status/true > log_Darwin(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/log/build_log.13.txt > log_Darwin(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/log/build_log.13.txt > buildparams_Darwin(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > buildparams_Darwin(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > > urls: > installer_Linux(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/installer/SecondLife-i686-2.1.1.208114.tar.bz2 > installer_Linux(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/installer/SecondLife-i686-2.1.1.208114.tar.bz2 > status_Linux(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/status/true > status_Linux(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/status/true > log_Linux(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/log/build_log.11.txt > log_Linux(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/log/build_log.11.txt > buildparams_Linux(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > buildparams_Linux(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > > urls: > installer_CYGWIN(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/installer/Second_Life_2-1-1-208114_Development_Setup.exe > installer_CYGWIN(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/installer/Second_Life_2-1-1-208114_Development_Setup.exe > status_CYGWIN(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/status/true > status_CYGWIN(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/status/true > log_CYGWIN(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/log/build_log.8.txt > log_CYGWIN(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/log/build_log.8.txt > buildparams_CYGWIN(proxy): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > buildparams_CYGWIN(s3): > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/buildparams/BuildScript.sh > > > All Build Products: > Proxy: > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/index.html > S3: > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ----- Zak Escher email: zak.escher at gmail.com Join me in Second Life http://secondlife.com/ss/?u=f76730f9dee0d54e3cc51e29da87373a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/0e291d5f/attachment-0001.htm From aimee.trescothick at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 05:40:41 2010 From: aimee.trescothick at gmail.com (Aimee Trescothick) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:40:41 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snow Storm / Mac, missing file? In-Reply-To: <21848424-6C0C-4FC7-A732-D8D794C2D08F@lindenlab.com> References: <21848424-6C0C-4FC7-A732-D8D794C2D08F@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On 16 Aug 2010, at 13:36, Aimee Linden wrote: > assets.txt is no longer required, as the contents of the bundles it downloads are now present in the source repo. Assuming you're on 32-bit LInux, try just doing: doc/asset_urls.txt I mean, doh. Aimee. From djshag at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 05:54:28 2010 From: djshag at hotmail.com (Patnad Babii) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:54:28 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fwd: Successful Build Nr. 208114 for oz_viewer-development (39db065f8899) on Darwin In-Reply-To: References: <20100815161839.BEA1BE2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> Message-ID: The CYGWIN (?!!!) build not working on Windows 7 ? 64 Bits, using latest Nvidia drivers on a X260 graphic card. Also I would like to mention the Crash logger did not send the report, it failed. On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Oz Linden wrote: The first build of the new open Development repo is available now. Begin forwarded message: From: buildadmin at lindenlab.com Date: August 15, 2010 12:18:39 EDT To: oz at lindenlab.com Subject: Successful Build Nr. 208114 for oz_viewer-development (39db065f8899) on Darwin urls: installer_Darwin(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/installer/SecondLife_2_1_1_208114_DEVELOPMENT.dmg installer_Darwin(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/installer/SecondLife_2_1_1_208114_DEVELOPMENT.dmg status_Darwin(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/status/true status_Darwin(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/status/true log_Darwin(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/log/build_log.13.txt log_Darwin(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/log/build_log.13.txt buildparams_Darwin(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/buildparams/BuildScript.sh buildparams_Darwin(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Darwin/buildparams/BuildScript.sh urls: installer_Linux(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/installer/SecondLife-i686-2.1.1.208114.tar.bz2 installer_Linux(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/installer/SecondLife-i686-2.1.1.208114.tar.bz2 status_Linux(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/status/true status_Linux(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/status/true log_Linux(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/log/build_log.11.txt log_Linux(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/log/build_log.11.txt buildparams_Linux(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/buildparams/BuildScript.sh buildparams_Linux(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/Linux/buildparams/BuildScript.sh urls: installer_CYGWIN(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/installer/Second_Life_2-1-1-208114_Development_Setup.exe installer_CYGWIN(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/installer/Second_Life_2-1-1-208114_Development_Setup.exe status_CYGWIN(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/status/true status_CYGWIN(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/status/true log_CYGWIN(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/log/build_log.8.txt log_CYGWIN(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/log/build_log.8.txt buildparams_CYGWIN(proxy): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/buildparams/BuildScript.sh buildparams_CYGWIN(s3): http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/arch/CYGWIN/buildparams/BuildScript.sh All Build Products: Proxy: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/index.html S3: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/oz_viewer-development/rev/208114/index.html _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- ----- Zak Escher email: zak.escher at gmail.com Join me in Second Life http://secondlife.com/ss/?u=f76730f9dee0d54e3cc51e29da87373a -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/94300e92/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Mon Aug 16 06:58:00 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:58:00 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] food for thought: multiple attachment support versus server-side lag Message-ID: <4C6943E8.6040008@eregion.de> Hi, I just had this thought... In recent versions there's support for multiple attachments per attachment slot. In recent SERVER versions, there's a nasty bug that freezes whole sims when an avatar who wears lots of scripted attachments enters or leaves the sim... (SVC4196) Now, with multiple attachments per slot, how likely is it that john the mindless noobie will end up wearing lots of invisible, scripted attachments that are not that obvious, but contain a LOT of scripts...? Isn't there an obvious conflict of interests here? bye, LC From marinekelley at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 07:13:49 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:13:49 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] food for thought: multiple attachment support versus server-side lag In-Reply-To: <4C6943E8.6040008@eregion.de> References: <4C6943E8.6040008@eregion.de> Message-ID: I think that's precisely why LL wanted to keep control of this feature server side by deciding how many objects can be worn (possibly according to the script memory limits to come), instead of going the avatar_lad.txt fake attachments route. On 16 August 2010 15:58, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Hi, > > > I just had this thought... > > In recent versions there's support for multiple attachments per > attachment slot. > > In recent SERVER versions, there's a nasty bug that freezes whole sims > when an avatar who wears lots of scripted attachments enters or leaves > the sim... (SVC4196) > > Now, with multiple attachments per slot, how likely is it that john the > mindless noobie will end up wearing lots of invisible, scripted > attachments that are not that obvious, but contain a LOT of scripts...? > > Isn't there an obvious conflict of interests here? > > > bye, > LC > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/bfc05d50/attachment-0001.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Mon Aug 16 07:19:01 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:19:01 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] food for thought: multiple attachment support versus server-side lag In-Reply-To: References: <4C6943E8.6040008@eregion.de> Message-ID: <201008161619.01623.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> hi, that's a bit better. more thought about multiwearables: let's say i have a tattoo, and a tank top, both on undershirt... with viewer 2.1 i can wear them both. How do i define what goes on top? by which order i put them on? and what about when i relog? bye, LC On Monday 16 August 2010 16:13:49 Marine Kelley wrote: > I think that's precisely why LL wanted to keep control of this feature > server side by deciding how many objects can be worn (possibly according to > the script memory limits to come), instead of going the avatar_lad.txt fake > attachments route. > > On 16 August 2010 15:58, Lance Corrimal wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I just had this thought... > > > > In recent versions there's support for multiple attachments per > > attachment slot. > > > > In recent SERVER versions, there's a nasty bug that freezes whole sims > > when an avatar who wears lots of scripted attachments enters or leaves > > the sim... (SVC4196) > > > > Now, with multiple attachments per slot, how likely is it that john the > > mindless noobie will end up wearing lots of invisible, scripted > > attachments that are not that obvious, but contain a LOT of scripts...? > > > > Isn't there an obvious conflict of interests here? > > > > > > bye, > > LC > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges From marinekelley at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 07:23:57 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:23:57 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] food for thought: multiple attachment support versus server-side lag In-Reply-To: <201008161619.01623.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <4C6943E8.6040008@eregion.de> <201008161619.01623.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: Oh you cannot decide on which slot you want to wear a piece of clothing (say, a shirt), you can only "Add" it to what you are wearing and it will go on top. But you can reorder it later by going to the My Outfit tab, and click on the tools button to edit your appearance. Then you will see up and down arrows next to the name of each piece of clothing if you are wearing more than one layer of the same type. For example, you can move a shirt over or below a t-shirt that way. (PS : sorry for the double mail Lance, I only replied to you the first time) On 16 August 2010 16:19, Lance Corrimal wrote: > hi, > > > that's a bit better. > > more thought about multiwearables: > > let's say i have a tattoo, and a tank top, both on undershirt... with > viewer > 2.1 i can wear them both. > How do i define what goes on top? > > by which order i put them on? and what about when i relog? > > > bye, > LC > > > On Monday 16 August 2010 16:13:49 Marine Kelley wrote: > > I think that's precisely why LL wanted to keep control of this feature > > server side by deciding how many objects can be worn (possibly according > to > > the script memory limits to come), instead of going the avatar_lad.txt > fake > > attachments route. > > > > On 16 August 2010 15:58, Lance Corrimal > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I just had this thought... > > > > > > In recent versions there's support for multiple attachments per > > > attachment slot. > > > > > > In recent SERVER versions, there's a nasty bug that freezes whole sims > > > when an avatar who wears lots of scripted attachments enters or leaves > > > the sim... (SVC4196) > > > > > > Now, with multiple attachments per slot, how likely is it that john the > > > mindless noobie will end up wearing lots of invisible, scripted > > > attachments that are not that obvious, but contain a LOT of scripts...? > > > > > > Isn't there an obvious conflict of interests here? > > > > > > > > > bye, > > > LC > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > > privileges > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/9f9fc9a5/attachment.htm From nyx at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 07:44:06 2010 From: nyx at lindenlab.com (Nyx Linden) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:44:06 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] food for thought: multiple attachment support versus server-side lag In-Reply-To: References: <4C6943E8.6040008@eregion.de> <201008161619.01623.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C694EB6.30602@lindenlab.com> Whichever one you "add" last will go on top, then you can reorder the clothing you are wearing from the outfit editor. The order you choose should persist when you save your outfit or across logins, as it is saved as part of the inventory link created in the "current outfit" folder or the saved outfit folder. As for multi-attachments, the total number of attachments you can wear at a given time is capped server-side, as stated earlier in the thread to ensure that the feature does not increase avatar complexity. -Nyx Marine Kelley wrote: > Oh you cannot decide on which slot you want to wear a piece of > clothing (say, a shirt), you can only "Add" it to what you are wearing > and it will go on top. But you can reorder it later by going to the My > Outfit tab, and click on the tools button to edit your appearance. > Then you will see up and down arrows next to the name of each piece of > clothing if you are wearing more than one layer of the same type. For > example, you can move a shirt over or below a t-shirt that way. > > (PS : sorry for the double mail Lance, I only replied to you the first > time) > > > On 16 August 2010 16:19, Lance Corrimal > wrote: > > hi, > > > that's a bit better. > > more thought about multiwearables: > > let's say i have a tattoo, and a tank top, both on undershirt... > with viewer > 2.1 i can wear them both. > How do i define what goes on top? > > by which order i put them on? and what about when i relog? > > > bye, > LC > > > On Monday 16 August 2010 16:13:49 Marine Kelley wrote: > > I think that's precisely why LL wanted to keep control of this > feature > > server side by deciding how many objects can be worn (possibly > according to > > the script memory limits to come), instead of going the > avatar_lad.txt fake > > attachments route. > > > > On 16 August 2010 15:58, Lance Corrimal > > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I just had this thought... > > > > > > In recent versions there's support for multiple attachments per > > > attachment slot. > > > > > > In recent SERVER versions, there's a nasty bug that freezes > whole sims > > > when an avatar who wears lots of scripted attachments enters > or leaves > > > the sim... (SVC4196) > > > > > > Now, with multiple attachments per slot, how likely is it that > john the > > > mindless noobie will end up wearing lots of invisible, scripted > > > attachments that are not that obvious, but contain a LOT of > scripts...? > > > > > > Isn't there an obvious conflict of interests here? > > > > > > > > > bye, > > > LC > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting > > > privileges > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 07:52:31 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:52:31 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <1281895295.2030.5.camel@glen-desktop> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <1281895295.2030.5.camel@glen-desktop> Message-ID: <4C6950AF.2030508@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-15 14:01, Glen Canaday wrote: > This does sound much better than the previous way of doing things - more > open and closer to the Bazaar, etc., but I want to ask how it came > about. What was the impetus? Is this a direct result of Phil's return to > more active involvement with LL in general? Is it simply the desire of > the devs added to opportunity and freedom thus made into reality? As a general rule I don't want to spend list time/space discussing internal LL decision making processes, but for this one I'll be happy to make a limited exception. This change in how we do viewer development is a result of taking a good hard self-critical look at what was working and what wasn't, and trying to find a better way. It was clear that: * Viewer 2 would have benefited from earlier exposure to residents so that we got feedback. * We were not able to import as much good work from open source as we want using the two-viewer model. * Having multiple large features all trying to get into one integration stream to create 'big bang' releases creates delays. * Doing short cycle scrum-driven development worked well. * Distributed version control (hg vs svn) worked well. The leaders of the new Snowstorm team collectively took those and other factors and proposed the new structure. Obviously, that proposal was adopted. Details of how the discussions went are not really important. You've all seen the one-slide strategic imperatives that we've adopted, and Snowstorm is designed to fit them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/93b9c5be/attachment.htm From robertltux at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 08:08:18 2010 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:08:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6950AF.2030508@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <1281895295.2030.5.camel@glen-desktop> <4C6950AF.2030508@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: .. > This change in how we do viewer development is a result of taking a good > hard self-critical look at what was working and what wasn't, and trying to > find a better way.? It was clear that: > > Viewer 2 would have benefited from earlier exposure to residents so that we > got feedback. > We were not able to import as much good work from open source as we want > using the two-viewer model. > Having multiple large features all trying to get into one integration stream > to create 'big bang' releases creates delays. > Doing short cycle scrum-driven development worked well. > Distributed version control (hg vs svn) worked well. > Is there any thoughts of looking at features of the 3PVs and seeing how possible it would be to grab those features in a "fast track process"? perhaps have a poll or something to sort this out?? -- Robert L Martin From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 08:10:52 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:10:52 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] viewer-development vs release 2.1.1 Message-ID: <4C6954FC.80304@lindenlab.com> The new viewer-development repository was created by forking off of a LL-internal repository and then stripping from it everything that was not needed to build a viewer or that we could not legally release as open source. (Incidentally, the efforts to get this done in the very short time we had were amazing - you should all thank Brad, Merov, Aimee, Nat, and CG especially, but many others contributed). This was happening in parallel with the final integration for the 2.1.1 release, but we didn't start with a repo that was exactly the one that was being used for 2.1.1 final builds. As a result, I don't think that there will ever actually be a changeset we can point to on viewer-development that exactly matches the 2.1.1 release. One of the items that will have to be done in the next week or so will be to double check that we've sync'ed up all the late-breaking changes that went into 2.1.1 and get them into viewer-development. I'm not sure who the right people will be to do that. From kf6kjg at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 10:25:04 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:25:04 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] viewer-development vs release 2.1.1 In-Reply-To: <4C6954FC.80304@lindenlab.com> References: <4C6954FC.80304@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Yes, much thanks to those who got this working. I'm compiling now on my new Mac mini! Ricky Cron Stardust On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > ?The new viewer-development repository was created by forking off of a > LL-internal repository and then stripping from it everything that was > not needed to build a viewer or that we could not legally release as > open source. ?(Incidentally, the efforts to get this done in the very > short time we had were amazing - you should all thank Brad, Merov, > Aimee, Nat, and CG especially, but many others contributed). ?This was > happening in parallel with the final integration for the 2.1.1 release, > but we didn't start with a repo that was exactly the one that was being > used for 2.1.1 final builds. > > As a result, I don't think that there will ever actually be a changeset > we can point to on viewer-development that exactly matches the 2.1.1 > release. > > One of the items that will have to be done in the next week or so will > be to double check that we've sync'ed up all the late-breaking changes > that went into 2.1.1 and get them into viewer-development. ?I'm not sure > who the right people will be to do that. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Mon Aug 16 10:29:11 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:29:11 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C697567.6010002@fishkill.ibm.com> Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > * Improve the user experience > o Make continuous improvements to the design and > implementation of the Viewer?s user interface. Will the User Experience office hours be resurrected? Will anyone go back and look at the archives of past meetings that Lindens did not attend? > o There are no longer internal ?private? and external ?public? > versions. Viewer source (with the exception of one wrapper > library we cannot legally release), is now in public > Mercurial source repositories. All viewer integration is > happening in the Development repository at > ?http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development?. It is used by > all Linden Lab viewer development teams, and open source > developers are encouraged to pull from that repository and > submit changes for integration to it. Will the SLVoice source code be made available? > We publish both what we?re working on (in public Jira issues and on our > Sprint Backlog) and the projects we?d like to do (our Product Backlog). Does that mean more than a few Lindens will read and comment on the PJIRA or will this just be excerpts copied from the internal JIRA? > Within Linden Lab, many different groups are doing Viewer development; > the Snowstorm team manages the Development branch, coordinates > contributions from open source, and does rapid small feature development > itself. > Snowstorm is: > > * Q Linden - Tech Lead, Team Lead > * Esbee Linden - Product/Business Lead > * Oz Linden - Open Source Lead > * Merov, Aimee, Tofu, and three external contract developers > * and, crucially, the open source community. Wait a minute. Does that mean that Linden will still be doing most of its "development" in private while a few Lindens will be participating in "Development"? That sounds like Snowglobe. Mike From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 10:54:38 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:54:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= Message-ID: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for announcements of build results for the new viewer-development repository? How does the name viewer-development-builds at lists.secondlife.com sound? Given that we're now hosting the repo itself on bitbucket, and they provide rss feeds for repos, is there any need for also having an email list for commits to it? It's possible to set it up - I just don't know if we need it. From robertltux at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 11:02:46 2010 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:02:46 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > ?Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for > announcements of build results for the new viewer-development repository? > > How does the name ?viewer-development-builds at lists.secondlife.com sound? > > Given that we're now hosting the repo itself on bitbucket, and they > provide rss feeds for repos, is there any need for also having an email > list for commits to it? ? It's possible to set it up - I just don't know > if we need it. > if you go the RSS route please make sure that the feed has a functional title for the entries (say %build number% Platform) -- Robert L Martin From sldev at free.fr Mon Aug 16 11:23:03 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:23:03 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:25:21 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > What?s Next For The Second Life Viewer? > > Linden Lab spent the better part of the last two years revamping the > Second Life Viewer to create Viewer 2. Some of the changes were > important new features, and some were controversial - > some were both. ^^^^ "Some" ?... You are modest... :-P > The bulk of the design and engineering work was done with only limited, > indirect participation from the open source and resident communities, > which has left many in those communities feeling alienated and > disenfranchised. Indeed ! > In recent months we have released both Viewer 2 and a 2.1 update; > Linden Lab has also been through a major reorganization. We are now > evaluating the results of all of this work, and we are making > significant changes to the way we design and build the viewer. > Introducing Snowstorm > > Linden Lab has created a new team whose goal is to develop the Second > Life Viewer in the open and in response to the needs of our Residents. > Here are our goals: > Show Residents continuous visible progress > Work in the open by sharing not only our code, but our process publicly > -- this includes our backlog and our discussion about it. > Engage with the open source community and aggressively accept good work > the community does into our product. > Release new ?Development? Viewers frequently -- our initial target is > bi-weekly. All builds from the ?Development? branch are visible and > available for testing. > Improve the user experience > Make continuous improvements to the design and implementation of the > Viewer?s user interface. Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) UI-wise ?... > Import desirable patches and features from Snowglobe and other Third > Party Viewers. > Add small features and fixes that have high value and low cost, while > still remaining consistent with an overall product vision. > Renew and deepen our relationship with the community > Integrate community work directly into our main line Viewer rather than > routing it through Snowglobe first. > Demonstrate rapid responsiveness to feedback and patches from community. > Engage continuously with the community to develop new project proposals > and provide resources that open source developers need to be effective. This is all good provided it does translate into actions and facts. > How Snowstorm Works > > Viewer development has moved to a single open source model > There are no longer internal ?private? and external ?public? versions. > Viewer source (with the exception of one wrapper library we cannot > legally release), is now in public Mercurial source repositories. All > viewer integration is happening in the Development repository at > ?http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development?. It is used by all Linden > Lab viewer development teams, and open source developers are encouraged > to pull from that repository and submit changes for integration to it. How the submission will be done ? Commits to the repository, or some filtering process where LL will have the final word about what goes in or stays out ?... > Code in the Development repository is now released under version 2 of > the GNU LGPL. This allows community developers greater freedom to use > the viewer code, including incorporating it into products that also > include closed source. Does it mean we don't need anymore the privacy-threatening "contribution agreement" form ?... I do hope so, unless you want to keep segregating developers like myself, who value more their privacy than helping LL to make a better viewer. > Accepted contributions go directly into the official Second Life Viewer Again, how contributions will be accepted, will there be votes from the Open Source community, or will only Lindens decide ? > There is no longer a two-step process of contributing to Snowglobe > and then hoping that the contribution is imported to the Linden viewer. > Viewer development efforts within Linden Lab go through the same > integration queue and into the same repository that open source > contributions use. > Innovations from Snowglobe are being imported to this new viewer > Some changes may be left behind or modified in order to fit into > Viewer 2; Linden Lab will work with open source contributors to > harmonize contributions with the product goals of the Linden viewer. More details on this, please. > The plan is to import as much as possible of the excellent work that has > been done in Snowglobe as quickly as possible (this rate does depend on > help from you). > Snowstorm team plans and priorities are open > We publish both what we?re working on (in public Jira issues and on our > Sprint Backlog) and the projects we?d like to do (our Product Backlog). > These projects are available for open source contributors to take on, > and the Snowstorm team coordinates getting access to any Linden review > and collaboration resources that are needed. Community members are > encouraged to propose additions to the Product Backlog. > Who Is Building The Viewer? > > Within Linden Lab, many different groups are doing Viewer development; > the Snowstorm team manages the Development branch, coordinates > contributions from open source, and does rapid small feature development > itself. > Snowstorm is: > Q Linden - Tech Lead, Team Lead > Esbee Linden - Product/Business Lead > Oz Linden - Open Source Lead > Merov, Aimee, Tofu, and three external contract developers > and, crucially, the open source community. > > Where Are The Details? > > Snowstorm operates in the open; the home page of the Snowstorm team is on the public wiki at > https://wiki.secondlife.com/Snowstorm_Team Broken link. > it has pointers to our various communications channels, processes, and contact > information. > > The Snowstorm Team leads will be at the Second Life Community Convention on > Aug 15, and will hold an open in-world meeting Aug 16 at the Hippotropolis > Theater from Noon to 2PM SLT: > http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/239/28/24 Will try to come, hoping it's not going to be one of those voice meetings where non-English people like me can't speak well enough neither understand what is being said... Regards, Henri. From robertltux at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 11:30:03 2010 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:30:03 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: my thoughts are 1 the 2.* BACKEND is great (but needs to have some sort of SDK) 2 meetings should have Voice turned off just for performance reasons (plus the problem of getting a good record of what was actually said using voice) 3 SnowStorm is findable in the wiki but that link is a bit "off" 4 on the 2.* UI backend there needs to be a way to convert all the sidebar tabs to floaters (and some sort of setting to disable the sidebar) -- Robert L Martin From kadah.coba at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 11:38:44 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:38:44 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Why not use the existing one, sldev-commits at lists.secondlife.com? On 8/16/2010 10:54 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for > announcements of build results for the new viewer-development repository? > > How does the name viewer-development-builds at lists.secondlife.com sound? > > Given that we're now hosting the repo itself on bitbucket, and they > provide rss feeds for repos, is there any need for also having an email > list for commits to it? It's possible to set it up - I just don't know > if we need it. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMaYWzAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE28N4H/RQO/EUOH3JnVEBM2XW0PLEn pob5VQiZCwS2Xm6We4dvGMjT6tmZH7nYLr8rArDjbIH5OVNI1X6GLj4j1QcPayQy fl/jLoHPffKxD9ODaqFCYfEOFZ9EYrCnJNK04s4iM4fW4Irv8maH6emazy/9v/d/ KcvvnOgmiEhCEkZ3lmln651KzTFZJBrXgz7CJgzex9sdJxIq8p4Xoth8icrYA+Ly MfUkn6iOcWfsf0k8RSz7Rbz1HiG17F7iJDb32Uewm7qd6hJJ7YP1rQ7JDZCOolnh IZE0AHg/W8bwWBN20xFRU+k1hWNY70UEgv398Cxf1LhgJSNNCZwEtSN37wMOnyo= =qg9o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sldev at free.fr Mon Aug 16 11:44:24 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:44:24 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100816204424.ba2f9bb3.sldev@free.fr> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:38:44 -0700, Kadah wrote: >> Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for >> announcements of build results for the new viewer-development >> repository? > > Why not use the existing one, sldev-commits at lists.secondlife.com? Seconded. Henri. From soft at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 11:47:13 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:47:13 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> Message-ID: sldev is an overloaded name, and it will be builds rather than commits. The name would be doubly wrong. :) On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Kadah wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Why not use the existing one, sldev-commits at lists.secondlife.com? > > On 8/16/2010 10:54 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> ? Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for >> announcements of build results for the new viewer-development repository? >> >> How does the name ?viewer-development-builds at lists.secondlife.com sound? >> >> Given that we're now hosting the repo itself on bitbucket, and they >> provide rss feeds for repos, is there any need for also having an email >> list for commits to it? ? It's possible to set it up - I just don't know >> if we need it. -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 11:56:25 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:56:25 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-16 14:23, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI > to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that > moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and > user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the > viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user > base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) > UI-wise ?... I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or that we revert the UI to Viewer 1. It is absolutely not going to happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored. That does not mean that we don't recognize that some choices in V2 were not optimal, and that some probably need to be revisited, and we're open to doing that. But we will do it in the context of calm discussions of what problems exist and creative ideas for how to solve them. We are not moving backwards, we are moving forwards. Think about it for a minute - there are an infinite number of possible solutions for how to build a UI for a virtual world viewer - what are the odds that the first or second attempt produced the best possible UI? We need new and creative ideas focused on specific problem descriptions. >> How Snowstorm Works >> >> Viewer development has moved to a single open source model >> There are no longer internal ?private? and external ?public? versions. >> Viewer source (with the exception of one wrapper library we cannot >> legally release), is now in public Mercurial source repositories. All >> viewer integration is happening in the Development repository at >> ?http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development?. It is used by all Linden >> Lab viewer development teams, and open source developers are encouraged >> to pull from that repository and submit changes for integration to it. > How the submission will be done ? Commits to the repository, or some > filtering process where LL will have the final word about what goes in > or stays out ?... That is all described on our process documentation pages on the wiki, but I'll hit the high points here: * Submissions are done by creating a public repo base on and synced to viewer-development, and requesting that a change be pulled from it to viewer-development * Linden Lab will absolutely have the final word about what goes into the viewer. We're a multi-million dollar business with hundreds of thousands of customers, and we need to deploy a coherent and reliable software product to them. If anyone thinks they can do that without some kind of product management and quality control, they are welcome to go build a business the size and complexity of ours and demonstrate it. >> Code in the Development repository is now released under version 2 of >> the GNU LGPL. This allows community developers greater freedom to use >> the viewer code, including incorporating it into products that also >> include closed source. > Does it mean we don't need anymore the privacy-threatening "contribution > agreement" form ?... I do hope so, unless you want to keep segregating > developers like myself, who value more their privacy than helping LL to > make a better viewer. Again, this is described in the public documentation... The Contribution Agreement is unchanged and still required. Note: if we did not have the CA, we would not have been able to make this license change. > Will try to come, hoping it's not going to be one of those voice meetings > where non-English people like me can't speak well enough neither understand > what is being said... This meeting will include voice because it's so time consuming to do everything in chat. We will have someone putting the important points into chat as much as possible, and will certainly respond to questions in chat. For anyone who wants to have a separate chat-only meeting at another time, I'll be glad to set that up. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/0ebf8481/attachment-0001.htm From javajoint at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 12:05:17 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:05:17 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-08-16 14:23, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI > to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that > moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and > user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the > viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user > base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) > UI-wise ?... > > > I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: > > Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or that > we revert the UI to Viewer 1. It is absolutely not going to happen, and > any suggestion to that effect will be ignored. > > There is a brief honeymoon period where the community will try to work with you. If you show that you are not listening, then the community will collectively throw their hands up in the air, and go the OpenSim + 3rd party viewer route. The SL Viewer is not the only game in town. Your own statistics as to which viewers are being used certainly should bear that out. Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/36ef98ee/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Mon Aug 16 12:32:18 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:32:18 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: <20100816204424.ba2f9bb3.sldev@free.fr> References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> <20100816204424.ba2f9bb3.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <201008162132.19096.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Monday 16 August 2010 schrieb Henri Beauchamp: > On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:38:44 -0700, Kadah wrote: > >> Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for > >> announcements of build results for the new viewer-development > >> repository? > > > > Why not use the existing one, sldev-commits at lists.secondlife.com? > > Seconded. thirded (is there such a word?) LC From kf6kjg at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 12:35:13 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:35:13 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Excepting the minorest detail: There is no "community" to collectively throw anything anywhere. There is only a collection of independent developers, each of which makes up their own mind, and may or may not agree with the vocal minority. Personally, I have a few problems with viewer 2, but most are fixable with some (relatively) simple changes that would make the entire thing more consistent and dynamic. It is not a complete loss, and several things I actually like, and the rest I'm ambivalent as I see those as just refactorings of the same thing. Remember, nobody here is representative, nor can speak for, anyone else but themselves. Barring LL employees using their work email addresses, of course. Now, let's get onto making sure this repository builds... Ricky Cron Stardust (Just making sure that I'm not counted among the minority majority...) On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Daniel Smith wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) > wrote: >> >> On 2010-08-16 14:23, Henri Beauchamp wrote: >> >> Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI >> to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that >> moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and >> user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the >> viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user >> base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) >> UI-wise ?... >> >> I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: >> >> Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or that >> we revert the UI to Viewer 1.?? It is absolutely not going to happen, and >> any suggestion to that effect will be ignored. >> > There is a brief honeymoon period where the community will try to work with > you. > If you show that you are not listening, then the community will collectively > throw > their hands up in the air, and go the OpenSim + 3rd party viewer route. > > The SL Viewer is not the only game in town.? Your own statistics as to which > viewers are being used certainly should bear that out. > > Daniel > > -- > Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California > http://daniel.org/resume > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From arrehn at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 12:42:52 2010 From: arrehn at gmail.com (Arrehn Oberlander) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:42:52 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: > > Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or > that > we revert the UI to Viewer 1. It is absolutely not going to happen, and > any suggestion to that effect will be ignored.> Casting the debate as whether or not 1.0 is better may not be productive, but recognizing that 2.0's UI is major barrier to adoption is essential. Perhaps a transparent task group could be formed to propose, map level of effort, and prioritize UI improvements. It might be a test of LL's stated community commitment. From zabb65 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 12:42:11 2010 From: zabb65 at gmail.com (Zabb65) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:42:11 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: <201008162132.19096.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> <20100816204424.ba2f9bb3.sldev@free.fr> <201008162132.19096.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: I'll stop in and say that it would be useful if you used the existing mailing list address as well. And would appreciate emails on commits. On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 15:32, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Monday 16 August 2010 schrieb Henri Beauchamp: >> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:38:44 -0700, Kadah wrote: >> >> Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for >> >> announcements of build results for the new viewer-development >> >> repository? >> > >> > Why not use the existing one, sldev-commits at lists.secondlife.com? >> >> Seconded. > > thirded (is there such a word?) > > LC > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From bryon at slearth.com Mon Aug 16 13:30:42 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:30:42 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Oz, Henri does not seem to suggest going back to 1.23 code as much as the UI behavior ought to go back to the way 1.23 functioned. And rightfully so when it comes to ?That moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and user-friendliness...? As bluntly put as it is. This is a problem description. I?ve seen that harsh criticism a dozen times in blogs and forums as well. If that requires us to do a wire frame for you to get that idea, please tell us so, but frankly we are talking about a global oop behavior for all panels as far I am concerned, and it shouldn?t require you a complete description for that... Kirsten Lee Cinquetti is one who completely gets is when it comes to such modification of the v2 U, back to a more fluid 1.23 way. And there is a lot more to do, but she?s headed in the right direction. I understand blunt comments rubs you the wrong way, but the sidebar rubs us the wrong way in equal measures. It?s the 1st major problem preventing me from even beginning to use viewer 2... as much as I?d like to. I think addressing the hurdles that prevents people still on 1.23 to move to 2.0 before you get into ?Rapid, effective deployment of new features and functionality.? is the most urgent priority in my opinion. PS: Henri, Q acknowledged and explained what happened with V2 here http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8948405. That failure has little to do with developers as much a LL leaders who had a poor understanding when it comes to the SL interface as week as misdirected or flawed overall goals. Don?t expect a: ?We fucked up? from them it?s not going to happen. Some of those probably left LL anyway... But Q. Oz and Philip acknowledged it multiple times in their own measured comments. So let?s put that criticism to rest, it only add to the fire. On 8/16/10 11:56 AM, "Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)" wrote: > On 2010-08-16 14:23, Henri Beauchamp wrote: >> >> Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI >> to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that >> moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and >> user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the >> viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user >> base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) >> UI-wise ?... > > I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: > > Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or that we > revert the UI to Viewer 1.?? It is absolutely not going to happen, and any > suggestion to that effect will be ignored. > > That does not mean that we don't recognize that some choices in V2 were not > optimal, and that some probably need to be revisited, and we're open to doing > that.? But we will do it in the context of calm discussions of what problems > exist and creative ideas for how to solve them.? We are not moving backwards, > we are moving forwards. > > Think about it for a minute - there are an infinite number of possible > solutions for how to build a UI for a virtual world viewer - what are the odds > that the first or second attempt produced the best possible UI?? We need new > and creative ideas focused on specific problem descriptions.?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/d177da24/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 14:08:20 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:08:20 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C69A8C4.9070800@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-16 13:54, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for > announcements of build results for the new viewer-development repository? > > How does the name viewer-development-builds at lists.secondlife.com sound? > > Given that we're now hosting the repo itself on bitbucket, and they > provide rss feeds for repos, is there any need for also having an > email list for commits to it? It's possible to set it up - I just > don't know if we need it. > I don't want to use any existing list for build notifications because I don't want to receive any of the other traffic that might be on an existing list. I have no use for commit emails even in the new repo, much less commit emails or build emails for snowglobe or anything else. From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Mon Aug 16 15:39:53 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:39:53 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> Bryon Ruxton wrote: > I think addressing the hurdles that prevent people still on 1.23 to > move to 2.0 before you get into > ?Rapid, effective deployment of new features and functionality.? is the > most urgent priority in my opinion. Seconded. From jhwelch at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 16:47:18 2010 From: jhwelch at gmail.com (Jonathan Welch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:47:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm meeting recording Message-ID: For those of you who were unable to attend or listen here is the 1hr 45m recording of the Snowstorm meeting run by Oz and Esbee today (Monday 16 August 2010): http://www.fileswap.com/share/224daa690312537717714bd3e8b81fe8/ss2hr-2010-08-16.mp3.html From mike.dickson at hp.com Mon Aug 16 16:50:49 2010 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:50:49 +0000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2E76112@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> As another poster has already pointed out, there is no *us* in a argument like this. Stop trying to attribute your personal feelings as the will of everyone else. I'm sure there are people that don't like the current viewer. Personally *I DO*. There is room for improvement (I host at clubs for instance and sending notices in viewer2 is many more mouse clicks) but overall I like the new interface and features. So if you *don't* then please find a constructive way to suggest improvements or work on a 3rd party viewer with the old interface. But don't attribute your opinions to some global "us" as that doesn't exist. Mike From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Bryon Ruxton Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 4:31 PM To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); Henri Beauchamp Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement Oz, Henri does not seem to suggest going back to 1.23 code as much as the UI behavior ought to go back to the way 1.23 functioned. And rightfully so when it comes to "That moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and user-friendliness..." As bluntly put as it is. This is a problem description. I've seen that harsh criticism a dozen times in blogs and forums as well. If that requires us to do a wire frame for you to get that idea, please tell us so, but frankly we are talking about a global oop behavior for all panels as far I am concerned, and it shouldn't require you a complete description for that... Kirsten Lee Cinquetti is one who completely gets is when it comes to such modification of the v2 U, back to a more fluid 1.23 way. And there is a lot more to do, but she's headed in the right direction. I understand blunt comments rubs you the wrong way, but the sidebar rubs us the wrong way in equal measures. It's the 1st major problem preventing me from even beginning to use viewer 2... as much as I'd like to. I think addressing the hurdles that prevents people still on 1.23 to move to 2.0 before you get into "Rapid, effective deployment of new features and functionality." is the most urgent priority in my opinion. PS: Henri, Q acknowledged and explained what happened with V2 here http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8948405. That failure has little to do with developers as much a LL leaders who had a poor understanding when it comes to the SL interface as week as misdirected or flawed overall goals. Don't expect a: "We fucked up" from them it's not going to happen. Some of those probably left LL anyway... But Q. Oz and Philip acknowledged it multiple times in their own measured comments. So let's put that criticism to rest, it only add to the fire. On 8/16/10 11:56 AM, "Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)" wrote: On 2010-08-16 14:23, Henri Beauchamp wrote: Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) UI-wise ?... I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or that we revert the UI to Viewer 1. It is absolutely not going to happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored. That does not mean that we don't recognize that some choices in V2 were not optimal, and that some probably need to be revisited, and we're open to doing that. But we will do it in the context of calm discussions of what problems exist and creative ideas for how to solve them. We are not moving backwards, we are moving forwards. Think about it for a minute - there are an infinite number of possible solutions for how to build a UI for a virtual world viewer - what are the odds that the first or second attempt produced the best possible UI? We need new and creative ideas focused on specific problem descriptions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/56b1ba38/attachment.htm From kadah.coba at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 17:24:22 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:24:22 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> <20100816204424.ba2f9bb3.sldev@free.fr> <201008162132.19096.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C69D6B6.70001@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I like getting the commit notices as well, and I can filter them how I prefer. Though as Oz stated at the meeting, 2 separate lists for builds and commits would not be a bad idea giving that the number of publicly visiable commits per day should be increasing soon. On 8/16/2010 12:42 PM, Zabb65 wrote: > I'll stop in and say that it would be useful if you used the existing > mailing list address as well. And would appreciate emails on commits. > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 15:32, Lance Corrimal wrote: >> Am Monday 16 August 2010 schrieb Henri Beauchamp: >>> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:38:44 -0700, Kadah wrote: >>>>> Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for >>>>> announcements of build results for the new viewer-development >>>>> repository? >>>> >>>> Why not use the existing one, sldev-commits at lists.secondlife.com? >>> >>> Seconded. >> >> thirded (is there such a word?) >> >> LC >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMada2AAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2VvUH/iHnehr7O7NrN1++qzbdUVVS cTyzKoi8cbWqHz5/wKFD17HVBIriYlg61ECW4z+0o6y0Jdu/Cam/0ArWhFyuxrYx pJmHA51TdjqmkPXEkwBZj0UZbYWfjUGGBCa94UEU14YJxsAHiHhnDRknZFz0sNnr liKQpZBetuEUJLzL6JUpXX8lMRHGrNV8jnzAe1T+ZXbuzMGQ8mSGOqhjSwn0iHui YF1Q6s2OY9X9Lcd2EYnarUsQ1UQ1aWv4p1p2r/3CbRnaCmcmVsJLai9UDBTbGb6Y sWujbrdrCDeXeE0BU8OfOJleIDIEY7y3w7RxOGPaO/lJYvG3fmi9iFsnnbpU+a0= =gqLE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sythos at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 17:32:44 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 02:32:44 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2E76112@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2E76112@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <20100817023244.57e7e278.sythos@gmail.com> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:50:49 +0000 "Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)" wrote: > As another poster has already pointed out, there is no *us* in a > argument like this. Stop trying to attribute your personal feelings > as the will of everyone else. I'm sure there are people that don't > like the current viewer. Personally *I DO*. There is room for > improvement (I host at clubs for instance and sending notices in > viewer2 is many more mouse clicks) but overall I like the new > interface and features. So if you *don't* then please find a > constructive way to suggest improvements or work on a 3rd party > viewer with the old interface. But don't attribute your opinions to > some global "us" as that doesn't exist. > > Mike +1 not only, sl2 interface (and derived like snowglobe2 or kirsten) are a lot more usefull and speedy for outfit composing and cleariness on display (maybe just fit chat in a tab like IMs) i admit after some years with 1.x interface is a bit hard understand how 2.x interface work, and maybe something should be still fixed, but if you talk with a new user now is mroe happy than "new users" of 1.x style interface. it is only lazyness about learning something new... :) From andromedaquonset at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 17:58:46 2010 From: andromedaquonset at gmail.com (Andromeda Quonset) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:58:46 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> At 12:56 PM 8/16/2010, you wrote: >On 2010-08-16 14:23, Henri Beauchamp wrote: >> >> >>Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI >>to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that >>moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and >>user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the >>viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user >>base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) >>UI-wise ?... > >I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: > >Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we >throw away Viewer 2, or that we revert the UI to >Viewer 1.? ? It is absolutely not going to >happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored. > >That does not mean that we don't recognize that >some choices in V2 were not optimal, and that >some probably need to be revisited, and we're >open to doing that.? But we will do it in the >context of calm discussions of what problems >exist and creative ideas for how to solve >them.? We are not moving backwards, we are moving forwards. > >Think about it for a minute - there are an >infinite number of possible solutions for how to >build a UI for a virtual world viewer - what are >the odds that the first or second attempt >produced the best possible UI?? We need new and >creative ideas focused on specific problem descriptions.? ? At the risk of upsetting the decorum here, I just can't let this go by. Mr. Oz Linden, perhaps YOU should depart from ALL viewer development. Statements of "It is absolutely not going to happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored." are not going to endear yourself with the community. Not that I can speak for anyone but myself, but your statement is extremely Draconian in nature and is only going to stir up trouble in the long run. You should recognize that it is occasionally helpful to simply throw out the baby with the bath water, and start fresh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/48180c12/attachment-0001.htm From bryon at slearth.com Mon Aug 16 18:25:45 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:25:45 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2E76112@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> Message-ID: Mike, First of all, I said ?us? in the context of those, like Henri, who hate the sidebar. As for ?we? in general, it is the majority who says they hate or dislike viewer 2.0 as indicated by multiple polls or articles like the following, justifying the word ?we? (i.e. the overall majority of Residents who gave their opinion): http://www.questionpro.com/akira/ShowResults?id=1604314&mode=data (75% disliking or hating the sidebar here.) http://blogs.secondlife.com/poll.jspa?poll=1017 http://blogs.secondlife.com/poll.jspa?poll=1018 http://polldaddy.com/poll/3048677/?view=results http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/03/20-not-increasing-growth.html Thus it?s not my personal feelings. I check my facts before I say something. When there is that much ?hate?(and not just dislike) for a product by such significant measure, deploying a task force to find out why, and how to fix it in emergency mode is required. That also includes listening to people like you who like the interface, and see exactly what they like, to assess the changes necessary, and what ought to be kept in consideration for the 10-20% who like it. On 8/16/10 4:50 PM, "Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)" wrote: > As another poster has already pointed out, there is no *us* in a argument like > this. Stop trying to attribute your personal feelings as the will of everyone > else. I'm sure there are people that don't like the current viewer. > Personally *I DO*. There is room for improvement (I host at clubs for > instance and sending notices in viewer2 is many more mouse clicks) but overall > I like the new interface and features. So if you *don't* then please find a > constructive way to suggest improvements or work on a 3rd party viewer with > the old interface. But don't attribute your opinions to some global "us" as > that doesn't exist. > > Mike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/8c8b6658/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 19:15:46 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson)) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:15:46 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 08/16/2010 Message-ID: <1D0D3FFB-1BB3-43BB-A4DB-39AEF13D0665@lindenlab.com> Date: 08/16/2010 Wiki version of the Daily Scrum summary can be found here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive == GENERAL NOTES == Q OOO until further notice. == DAILY SCRUM == === Aimee === PAST Added build.sh and BuildParams to the exported repo and got TeamCity builds working. Looking into EXT-8645 Incoming IM voice call notification doesn't appear if disable/enable voice chat FUTURE Continue with EXT-8645 Set myself up a work repo from viewer-development. Make a start on importing GCC > 4.1 build issues from Snowglobe? Be available to the Open Sourcers to help them adjust to the new structure (while I adjust myself too! :) IMPEDIMENTS None. === Tofu === OOO === Oz === PAST Sent pre-announcement emails to opensource-dev and tpvd-announce lists Set up IW SLCC Invitation to IW meeting on Monday Drafted "How To Propose A Viewer Change" wiki page Got a TeamCity build of oz/viewer-development Checked in license change for oz/viewer-development (ready to go) FUTURE Do a wiki page on hg workflow In-World developer meeting Clean up wiki documentation of Snowstorm IMPEDIMENTS None === Q === OOO === Esbee === PAST Finished deck for SLCC Presented with Oz & Q at SLCC FUTURE Final prep on Snowstorm community announcement blog post (posting today) Finish work on public backlog format & prepare to publish Follow up on SLCC feedback Attend inworld developer meeting Prepare for Sprint planning tomorrow Work on Wiki pages with Oz Bring Scrum platform to the meeting spot to Hippotropolis IMPEDIMENTS None === Paul === PAST BUG EXT-8588 (URL-like name of group is shown as hyperlink in group mini-inspector) In progress. BUG EXT-8372 ([TRUNCATION] ALL LANGS Untranslated dropdown list items in Preferences > Sound & Media (French viewer) "Default system device", "No device", "Microphone (...)" etc.) Discussing with Eli, waiting for response. Bug was reopened but I cannot repro. Attached screenshots. FUTURE BUG EXT-8588 (URL-like name of group is shown as hyperlink in group mini-inspector) IMPEDIMENTS none === Andrew === PAST Bug EXT-8658 (Offline participants of Add hoc chat are shown in Recent Tab). Fixed and sent for review EXT-6527 (IM chat history log in plain text mode looks ugly when displays avatar SLURLs). Investigated. Will fix tomorrow EXT-8635 (Replace "no matches found" with "loading" in the My Outfits tab). Consulted with Sergey. Probably fixed. Will test and submit for review tomorrow Task EXT-8425 [HARD CODED] ALL LANGS: Unlocalized keyboard keys under Advanced menu > Shortcuts (French viewer). Found a problem I introduced. Fixed and sent for review FUTURE Fix debugger EXT-6527 (IM chat history log in plain text mode looks ugly when displays avatar SLURLs). IMPEDIMENTS None. === Vadim === PAST Task EXT-8564 (Add option fo take off wearables via "Wearing" Tab): Implemented. Major bug EXT-6766 (The number of characters allowed in the Chat Edit Window in Vewer 2 does not match 1024 as required): Investigated, set back to fixed. Bug EXT-8357 (ESC will not de-focus the sidebar): Fixed. Bug EXT-8630 (Ctrl-Shift-W hides all chat until a viewer restart): Investigated, need to discuss with AA tomorrow. FUTURE other bugs IMPEDIMENTS none === Sergey === PAST Critical bug (EXT-8636) There is no 'worn' prefix for COF items from 'My Outfits' tab if change outfit few times Fixed. Uploaded for review. Bug (EXT-8421) [HARD CODED] ALL LANGS Several strings are untranslated under Group Profile Land/Assets (French viewer) WIP. Not sure if we can translate the date string received from server. FUTURE: Bug (EXT-8421) [HARD CODED] ALL LANGS Several strings are untranslated under Group Profile Land/Assets (French viewer) IMPEDIMENTS none === Anya === PAST mostly QA coordination issues appearance ownership FUTURE crashhunters discus future of PE's current backlog, other bugfixing within the big picture. IMPEDIMENTS none -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/a68e7766/attachment.htm From yoz at lindenlab.com Mon Aug 16 19:27:34 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:27:34 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 16 August 2010 17:58, Andromeda Quonset wrote: > > At the risk of upsetting the decorum here, I just can't let this go by. > Mr. Oz Linden, perhaps YOU should depart from ALL viewer development. > Statements of "It is absolutely not going to happen, and any suggestion to > that effect will be ignored." are not going to endear yourself with the > community. Not that I can speak for anyone but myself, but your statement > is extremely Draconian in nature and is only going to stir up trouble in the > long run. You should recognize that it is occasionally helpful to simply > throw out the baby with the bath water, and start fresh. > The Snowstorm project is aimed at dramatically increasing community involvement in Viewer development and improving communications around it. Part of that improvement involves increasing the depth and clarity of those communications; being definitive about our future plans and managing expectations so that everyone knows what's coming to the platform. When we can be definitive about what's open for consideration in a particular area, we can save a lot of fruitless arguing. We are open to being guided by constructive arguments, requests and code contributions; that's what Snowstorm is all about. Contributors may guide us in directions we'd never expected, which would be fantastic, or just help us prioritise and fix existing problems. "Make the sidebar undockable" or "Reduce the vertical area taken by chat messages" are requests that can go onto the backlog for discussion, triage and implementation. "Ditch everything new and go back to what it was before" is neither a constructive argument nor a well-specified request. It tells us nothing about what you believe to be wrong with the new UI, why you believe it, and what we can do to fix it. Once we are able to discuss specifics, then we can start working on them. Linden Lab has the final say in what goes into the Linden Lab viewer. A third-party viewer team has the final say in what goes into their viewer. Linus Torvalds has the final say in what goes into the Linux kernel. If you want something in the kernel that Linus doesn't, you can just clone the main source tree and pull in updates while you make your own changes, then distribute your own kernel. Distributed version control's great like that, and it's why we moved to Mercurial. It makes it much easier for third-party viewers to maintain their own UI features, or contribute them back to us, while regularly pulling in the improvements we make to the underlying platform so as to make Second Life better for everyone. -- Yoz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/451de696/attachment-0001.htm From wdemauro at verizon.net Mon Aug 16 19:35:33 2010 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:35:33 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 08/16/2010 In-Reply-To: <1D0D3FFB-1BB3-43BB-A4DB-39AEF13D0665@lindenlab.com> References: <1D0D3FFB-1BB3-43BB-A4DB-39AEF13D0665@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: No amount of rationalizing will make acceptable a bad implementation of a design feature- it's better to accept there are serious design flaws and address it quickly. Will From: Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson) Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:15 PM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 08/16/2010 Date: 08/16/2010 Wiki version of the Daily Scrum summary can be found here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive == GENERAL NOTES == Q OOO until further notice. == DAILY SCRUM == === Aimee === PAST a.. Added build.sh and BuildParams to the exported repo and got TeamCity builds working. b.. Looking into EXT-8645 Incoming IM voice call notification doesn't appear if disable/enable voice chat FUTURE a.. Continue with EXT-8645 b.. Set myself up a work repo from viewer-development. c.. Make a start on importing GCC > 4.1 build issues from Snowglobe? d.. Be available to the Open Sourcers to help them adjust to the new structure (while I adjust myself too! :) IMPEDIMENTS a.. None. === Tofu === OOO === Oz === PAST a.. Sent pre-announcement emails to opensource-dev and tpvd-announce lists a.. Set up IW SLCC b.. Invitation to IW meeting on Monday b.. Drafted "How To Propose A Viewer Change" wiki page c.. Got a TeamCity build of oz/viewer-development a.. Checked in license change for oz/viewer-development (ready to go) FUTURE a.. Do a wiki page on hg workflow b.. In-World developer meeting c.. Clean up wiki documentation of Snowstorm IMPEDIMENTS a.. None === Q === OOO === Esbee === PAST a.. Finished deck for SLCC b.. Presented with Oz & Q at SLCC FUTURE a.. Final prep on Snowstorm community announcement blog post (posting today) b.. Finish work on public backlog format & prepare to publish c.. Follow up on SLCC feedback d.. Attend inworld developer meeting e.. Prepare for Sprint planning tomorrow f.. Work on Wiki pages with Oz g.. Bring Scrum platform to the meeting spot to Hippotropolis IMPEDIMENTS a.. None === Paul === PAST a.. BUG EXT-8588 (URL-like name of group is shown as hyperlink in group mini-inspector) a.. In progress. b.. BUG EXT-8372 ([TRUNCATION] ALL LANGS Untranslated dropdown list items in Preferences > Sound & Media (French viewer) "Default system device", "No device", "Microphone (...)" etc.) a.. Discussing with Eli, waiting for response. Bug was reopened but I cannot repro. Attached screenshots. FUTURE a.. BUG EXT-8588 (URL-like name of group is shown as hyperlink in group mini-inspector) IMPEDIMENTS a.. none === Andrew === PAST a.. Bug EXT-8658 (Offline participants of Add hoc chat are shown in Recent Tab). a.. Fixed and sent for review b.. EXT-6527 (IM chat history log in plain text mode looks ugly when displays avatar SLURLs). a.. Investigated. Will fix tomorrow c.. EXT-8635 (Replace "no matches found" with "loading" in the My Outfits tab). a.. Consulted with Sergey. Probably fixed. Will test and submit for review tomorrow d.. Task EXT-8425 [HARD CODED] ALL LANGS: Unlocalized keyboard keys under Advanced menu > Shortcuts (French viewer). a.. Found a problem I introduced. Fixed and sent for review FUTURE a.. Fix debugger b.. EXT-6527 (IM chat history log in plain text mode looks ugly when displays avatar SLURLs). IMPEDIMENTS a.. None. === Vadim === PAST a.. Task EXT-8564 (Add option fo take off wearables via "Wearing" Tab): a.. Implemented. b.. Major bug EXT-6766 (The number of characters allowed in the Chat Edit Window in Vewer 2 does not match 1024 as required): a.. Investigated, set back to fixed. c.. Bug EXT-8357 (ESC will not de-focus the sidebar): a.. Fixed. d.. Bug EXT-8630 (Ctrl-Shift-W hides all chat until a viewer restart): a.. Investigated, need to discuss with AA tomorrow. FUTURE a.. other bugs IMPEDIMENTS a.. none === Sergey === PAST a.. Critical bug (EXT-8636) There is no 'worn' prefix for COF items from 'My Outfits' tab if change outfit few times a.. Fixed. Uploaded for review. b.. Bug (EXT-8421) [HARD CODED] ALL LANGS Several strings are untranslated under Group Profile Land/Assets (French viewer) a.. WIP. Not sure if we can translate the date string received from server. FUTURE: a.. Bug (EXT-8421) [HARD CODED] ALL LANGS Several strings are untranslated under Group Profile Land/Assets (French viewer) IMPEDIMENTS a.. none === Anya === PAST a.. mostly QA coordination issues b.. appearance ownership FUTURE a.. crashhunters b.. discus future of PE's current backlog, other bugfixing within the big picture. IMPEDIMENTS a.. none -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/931474cf/attachment.htm From tateru.nino at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 19:35:45 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:35:45 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C69F581.6070803@gmail.com> On 17/08/2010 4:56 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > >> Will try to come, hoping it's not going to be one of those voice meetings >> where non-English people like me can't speak well enough neither understand >> what is being said... > > This meeting will include voice because it's so time consuming to do > everything in chat. We will have someone putting the important points > into chat as much as possible, and will certainly respond to questions > in chat. > > For anyone who wants to have a separate chat-only meeting at another > time, I'll be glad to set that up. > Actually, I was thinking about the Americans With Disabilities Act, personally. Especially as the anniversary of the Act has just been by. Unless text, you know, clearly represents an "unreasonable burden". -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/5dd0b819/attachment-0001.htm From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 20:08:26 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:08:26 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C69F581.6070803@gmail.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C69F581.6070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you conduct the meetings in voice, you also limit the ability of non-english speakers. If it's done in chat, machine translation is a viable option. Chat may take more time, but isn't it worth the time and effort to do things right? On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > > > On 17/08/2010 4:56 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> >> >> >>> Will try to come, hoping it's not going to be one of those voice meetings >>> where non-English people like me can't speak well enough neither understand >>> what is being said... >> >> This meeting will include voice because it's so time consuming to do everything in chat. We will have someone putting the important points into chat as much as possible, and will certainly respond to questions in chat. >> >> For anyone who wants to have a separate chat-only meeting at another time, I'll be glad to set that up. >> > Actually, I was thinking about the Americans With Disabilities Act, personally. Especially as the anniversary of the Act has just been by. Unless text, you know, clearly represents an "unreasonable burden". > -- > Tateru Nino > http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100816/72b4396b/attachment.htm From joel.foner at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 21:16:41 2010 From: joel.foner at gmail.com (Joel Foner) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:16:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C69F581.6070803@gmail.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C69F581.6070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: Providing text transcription of voice speakers for the disabled, as well as those who for various reasons cannot enable voice at the time, and for capture of a text searchable archive of the whole event, is a solved problem. Totally solved. It needs no figuring out or experimentation. Real-time voice to text transcription by a person during the event, as well as an after-the-fact voice recording to transcription can be done, and is often done, in Second Life, in various presentation, discussion and meeting contexts. It costs some real money, but not an outrageous amount for the service provided, and this has been done inworld for years in various settings, providing ample precedent for the fact that this approach "just works" just fine in Second Life. The only reason not to provide text transcription is cost. The ability to do so is not new technology, and it does not slow down voice speakers, while resulting in a comprehensive after the fact text transcript and a real-time transcription of voice-only speakers for those with disabilities or those who are not disabled and cannot enable voice in their current environment (for instance some at work cannot enable speakers or wear headphones for various reasons). There are inworld transcriptionists who are skilled at capturing real-time conversation to text. They do a fine job of capturing the concepts - leaving the detailed high accuracy transcription for after the fact transcription services. There are a variety (hundreds, perhaps thousands) of companies found on the web that specialize in recorded voice to text transcription services, some of whom already work in Second Life. The after-the-fact transcriptionist firms do not need to have Second Life experience, as they are working from a voice recording, although it is helpful if they have some domain understanding of the discussion content. If this is a priority item such that paying the going rates for said services is agreed, the issue can be solved in the immediate time frame to everyone's satisfaction. Regards, Joel (with an attempt at a constructive and solution-directed comment) On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 10:35 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > > > On 17/08/2010 4:56 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > > Will try to come, hoping it's not going to be one of those voice meetings > where non-English people like me can't speak well enough neither understand > what is being said... > > > This meeting will include voice because it's so time consuming to do > everything in chat. We will have someone putting the important points into > chat as much as possible, and will certainly respond to questions in chat. > > For anyone who wants to have a separate chat-only meeting at another time, > I'll be glad to set that up. > > Actually, I was thinking about the Americans With Disabilities Act, > personally. Especially as the anniversary of the Act has just been by. > Unless text, you know, clearly represents an "unreasonable burden". > > -- > Tateru Ninohttp://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/669771da/attachment.htm From joel.foner at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 21:19:03 2010 From: joel.foner at gmail.com (Joel Foner) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:19:03 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C69F581.6070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: In a previous email I said: "The ability to do so is not new technology" To clarify, I am *not* suggesting that some software program be run to provide text transcription, as that is not totally solved in a speaker independent way. Using actual people, however, to provide real-time and after the fact transcription services is well proven, both outside and inside Second Life. Joel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/001499c3/attachment.htm From laurent.bechir at madonie.org Mon Aug 16 22:19:15 2010 From: laurent.bechir at madonie.org (Laurent Bechir) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:19:15 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C6A1BD3.2070804@madonie.org> Bryon Ruxton a ?crit : > Mike, > > First of all, I said "us" in the context of those, like Henri, who > hate the sidebar. As for "we" in general, > it is the majority who says they hate or dislike viewer 2.0 as > indicated by multiple polls > or articles like the following, justifying the word "we" (i.e. the > overall majority of Residents who gave their opinion): > > http://www.questionpro.com/akira/ShowResults?id=1604314&mode=data > > (75% disliking or hating the sidebar here.) > http://blogs.secondlife.com/poll.jspa?poll=1017 > http://blogs.secondlife.com/poll.jspa?poll=1018 > http://polldaddy.com/poll/3048677/?view=results > http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/03/20-not-increasing-growth.html > > Thus it's not my personal feelings. I check my facts before I say > something. > When I look at the polls and I see figures like 1489 (max), 508, 367 or 75 participants, and that I compare those figures to the number of people connecting to SecondLife every day, I think that those polls represent more a little community in SL than the majority and that since it is the only one who talk, they make a lot of noise (in forum on other matters I also see more unhappy people talking than happy ones who generally remain silent, which make that they are not really representative for me). Also,it should be interesting to deepen the arguments of the voters against viewer 2 in those polls. The first one I read concerns the inventory which load slowly. I think that this kind of problem concern optimizing the code more than the whole viewer in itself. Problems like "I would like such or such feature", "This button is not at the good place", ... are more relevant. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/2f8fc20c/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Tue Aug 17 00:24:49 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:24:49 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Tuesday 17 August 2010 00:39:53 Mike Monkowski wrote: > Bryon Ruxton wrote: > > I think addressing the hurdles that prevent people still on 1.23 to > > move to 2.0 before you get into > > > > ?Rapid, effective deployment of new features and functionality.? is the > > > > most urgent priority in my opinion. > > Seconded. Thirded. The "Top Priority" should NOT be getting new users (while it of course should be high on the list), but it should be keeping the old, established users from leaving in disgust... you know, the ones that are already spending money, own sims, have a Second Life. How many big shops / brands have closed lately with statements like "I dont like SL anymore"...? Here's my personal "Like/Dislike" list about 2.x, with my own personal suggestions for improvements or what to port from 1.x: Like: the general feel of the new UI and the more streamlined menu Dislike: The color scheme (makes a lot of stuff hard to read); Suggestion: port the color scheme from 1.x (old one, not the lightblue one), or maybe the orageisch scheme from the starlight skin Dislike: the sidebar, and all that comes with it (Strong) Suggestion: make all UI elements that are not part of the menu, the toolbar or the chat bar non-modal dialogs where possible, modal dialogs only where necessary. Dislike: the fact that a lot of textures for profiles and such have changed size, forcing people to redo their profiles and "About Land", breaking them for 1.23 users by doing so Suggestion: get the old sizes back (see http://is.gd/elgvO) (Totally) Dislike: The way the profile shows first life and second life tab at the same time. If I wanted to flaunt my RL I would be on facebook. Facebook, by the way, still does not allow "Fake Personalities" and thusly is NO place for SecondLife avatars. Suggestion: Put Secondlife Tab and First Life Tab back on separated tabs, or at least use the "collapsible" firstlife section from starlight hope this list helps a bit. bye, LC From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Tue Aug 17 00:38:23 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:38:23 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <201008170938.23224.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Totally forgot to mention: HATE: the new IM / notification / local chat interface. I have yet to see a communications interface that is THAT cumbersome and badly designed. Suggestions: - make notifications (inventory offers, group notices) stay on screen like they used to be - put chat and IM back into a non-modal tabbed floater, with the option of chat being detached into its own "chat history" floater - get rid of all unnecessary spacing in chat and IM - IM's don't need a whole third of the window wasted for showing the other person's profile. Just put a "profile" button there. That profile FLOATER then can have all the other buttons that the old one has: "pay", "add friend", "teleport", and so on. If you really think those buttons should be right in the IM floater, put them in a toolbar along the top. Overall suggestions: all non-modal floaters should turn partially transparent as soon as the user clicks outside of them. bye, LC From marinekelley at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 01:10:01 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:10:01 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <201008170938.23224.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008170938.23224.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: > Suggestions: > - make notifications (inventory offers, group notices) stay on screen like > they used to be > I'm sure there is a debug setting or an XML option to do that, I'll look when I have time. But they would pile up pretty quickly, unlike 1.x the notification do not hide each other (which is good) but stack up to the top of the screen, cluttering it rather quickly when you're in group chat. My own biggest gripe about the notification system is silly but very annoying : when you receive an object or a notecard you get a "Keep/Discard/Block" window, then once you click "Keep" you get another notification telling you you've accepted the offer. Not only this notification is rather useless (I know I have accepted the offer or joined the group or whatnot, I've just done it), but the "OK" button to get rid of this confirmation is exactly where the "Discard" button of the next notification will be ! More than once I have hit "Discard" by mistake on the second notification of, say, my mailbox that sends me the notecards of my customers. And since it comes from an object, "Discard" will simply destroy the transferred item, not put it in trash. Because of this, one more customer believes I do not respond when someone buys something from a vendor of mine and my server does not deliver. > - put chat and IM back into a non-modal tabbed floater, with the option of > chat being detached into its own "chat history" floater > Chat is not part of the IM window anymore but you can make it tabbed by checking Preferences > Chat > Show IMs in > Tabs, and relogging. > - get rid of all unnecessary spacing in chat and IM > Agreed. But you can do it yourself by checking Preferences > Chat > Enable plain text IM and chat history > - IM's don't need a whole third of the window wasted for showing the other > person's profile. Just put a "profile" button there. That profile FLOATER > then > can have all the other buttons that the old one has: "pay", "add friend", > "teleport", and so on. If you really think those buttons should be right in > the IM floater, put them in a toolbar along the top. > Well these buttons are hidden with the arrow button, but there is a lot of wasted space on the top of the window indeed. > > > Overall suggestions: > all non-modal floaters should turn partially transparent as soon as the > user > clicks outside of them. > > I believe that's what 2.1 does. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/93c84ac7/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Tue Aug 17 01:29:55 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:29:55 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <201008170938.23224.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <201008171029.55494.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Tuesday 17 August 2010 10:10:01 Marine Kelley wrote: > > Suggestions: > > - make notifications (inventory offers, group notices) stay on screen > > like they used to be > > I'm sure there is a debug setting or an XML option to do that, I'll look > when I have time. But they would pile up pretty quickly, unlike 1.x the > notification do not hide each other (which is good) but stack up to the top > of the screen, cluttering it rather quickly when you're in group chat. I meant "make them stack like in 1.23 / snowglobe 1"... > My own biggest gripe about the notification system is silly but very > annoying : when you receive an object or a notecard you get a > "Keep/Discard/Block" window, then once you click "Keep" you get another > notification telling you you've accepted the offer. Not only this > notification is rather useless (I know I have accepted the offer or joined > the group or whatnot, I've just done it), but the "OK" button to get rid of > this confirmation is exactly where the "Discard" button of the next > notification will be ! More than once I have hit "Discard" by mistake on > the second notification of, say, my mailbox that sends me the notecards of > my customers. And since it comes from an object, "Discard" will simply > destroy the transferred item, not put it in trash. Because of this, one > more customer believes I do not respond when someone buys something from a > vendor of mine and my server does not deliver. I havent endured 2.x for long enough to notice that, but i can see how painful that would be. bye, LC From sldev at free.fr Tue Aug 17 01:30:58 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:30:58 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100817103058.0f8d193a.sldev@free.fr> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:56:25 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-08-16 14:23, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI > > to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that > > moronic side bar and its modal tools which impair productivity and > > user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the > > viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user > > base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) > > UI-wise ?... > > I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: > > Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or > that we revert the UI to Viewer 1. It is absolutely not going to > happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored. > > That does not mean that we don't recognize that some choices in V2 were > not optimal, and that some probably need to be revisited, and we're open > to doing that. But we will do it in the context of calm discussions of > what problems exist and creative ideas for how to solve them. We are > not moving backwards, we are moving forwards. > > Think about it for a minute - there are an infinite number of possible > solutions for how to build a UI for a virtual world viewer - what are > the odds that the first or second attempt produced the best possible > UI? We need new and creative ideas focused on specific problem > descriptions. This is this kind of extremely arrogant arguments that LL keeps showing up year after year, and that discourage people from helping and encourage then to search elsewhere for greener pastures... You (LL) are lucky that you do not yet have direct competitors, since the fact there is (for now), no other "pasture" preserves you from a massive mass emigration. But things might change, and quicker than you might expect... The move to an Open Source model is a good move, and I applaud to it. You (LL) recognized that you made a mistake by not developping viewer 2 in the open, and for this I (and all Open Source developpers and also all dedicated residents who want to see SL survive and even thrive and grow) acknowledge that you did a great step in the right direction. Alas, if you build a brick wall on the road, you'll crash your face into that wall at the next step !... You now need to remember what was SL's initial motto "Your World, Your Imagination" and restore this spirit, extending it from in-world contents to the viewer and services: yes, the residents (most of whom are actually paying customers) CAN help you improving SL further. The question is WILL they do it ?... Well, not if you are to discourage them and act stubbornely. The viewer 2 has been countless times proven to be a huge failure and is widely rejected by SL's regular users (and the fact 20% of them more or less like it won't change this fact). The Open Source developpers involved with SL are, for most of them already contributing in one way or another to TPVs: just look at the latter. But for Marine's viewer (Marine restricts herself on purpose to provide RestrainedLove support to the official LL viewer), ALL the TPV viewers are based off v1 codebase or already have gotten rid of the most annoying and actually impairing "features" of viewer 2 (namely, Kirsten's viewer and the removed sidebar, since this is the only other TPV based on viewer 2 around). Now, ask yourself this question: "How much these developers who constitute the actual task force in the OS viewer develoment and are cranking up the patches to bring useful new features) will be ready to work for you, Linden Lab, and contribute to SnowStorm, if you are so inflexible about the changes to the UI that they think are MANDATORY to render the viewer USABLE ?... Personally, I won't contribute and I bet many other developers will do the same. I never said that we should go back to the v1.23 code base, but I did say, and will keep saying, that the UI of viewer 2 *MUST* be changed, and yes, most of the time to make things work more or less like they used to work in v1.23 (such as the modal tools that *MUST* be made non-modal again). If nothing changes on the viewer 2 UI front, I can already tell you what will happen (since it is happening already): the Open Source developers will simply work to improve Snowglobe v1 and the TPVs, backporting the usefull features of viewer 2 to the v1 codebase (I personally already backported the Alpha and Tattoo wearable support months ago, and recently the inventory links support; I'll work next on multiple attachments per point support). This is a WASTE in valuable programing power for both YOU and US, since our skills would be better spent IMPROVING viewer 2 ! > > How the submission will be done ? Commits to the repository, or some > > filtering process where LL will have the final word about what goes in > > or stays out ?... > > .../... > > We're a multi-million dollar business with hundreds of thousands of > customers, and we need to deploy a coherent and reliable software > product to them. If anyone thinks they can do that without some > kind of product management and quality control, they are welcome to > go build a business the size and complexity of ours and demonstrate it. Again, this is utterly ARROGANT a stance, and won't buy you anyone's sympathy. Do you think we (the developers) are just a bunch of script kiddies ?... Most of us do work for multi-million dollar (or euro) businesses or even for government agencies, with a staff sometimes 10 or 100 times what LL's staff is, many of us with decades of experiences in programing (3 decades, personally). LL doesn't impress me... We, however, have an HUGE advantage on you, Lindens: we are *using* SL, be it for building, scripting, roleplaying (either freeform RP or combat RP, which are two different matters), running businesses, exploring, communicating, etc... And by USING SL, we KNOW what we NEED in the viewer. I doubt very much the people behind the viewer 2 UI desing ever actually used SL like we do ! > >> Code in the Development repository is now released under version 2 of > >> the GNU LGPL. This allows community developers greater freedom to use > >> the viewer code, including incorporating it into products that also > >> include closed source. > > Does it mean we don't need anymore the privacy-threatening "contribution > > agreement" form ?... I do hope so, unless you want to keep segregating > > developers like myself, who value more their privacy than helping LL to > > make a better viewer. > > Again, this is described in the public documentation... > > The Contribution Agreement is unchanged and still required. > > Note: if we did not have the CA, we would not have been able to make > this license change. I don't understand the need for the CA anymore since LGPL basically allows LL to take any snapshot of the Open Sourced viewer and use the code in their own, closed source viewer if they so wish... Wasn't it the very spirit of the FLOSS exception and the resulting CA ?... > > Will try to come, hoping it's not going to be one of those voice meetings > > where non-English people like me can't speak well enough neither understand > > what is being said... > > This meeting will include voice because it's so time consuming to do > everything in chat. We will have someone putting the important points > into chat as much as possible, and will certainly respond to questions > in chat. > > For anyone who wants to have a separate chat-only meeting at another > time, I'll be glad to set that up. Look at it this way: people who, like me, do the effort to write in proper english to communicate with you, while english is just a second language for us, could expect from Linden's part that they'd do the little effort to type their words in chat, so that non-native english speakers have a chance to understand what is being said... Voice is a communication killer and segregation tool for us, non-native english speakers. Offering a separate meeting is very kind of you, but then, we still loose what has been said at the main meeting and cannot exchange our ideas and arguments with people who attended it, plus, it consumes more time for you, a time that you could have spent typing the text in the chat at the main meeting... Regards, Henri. From sldev at free.fr Tue Aug 17 02:44:51 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:44:51 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:27:34 -0700, Yoz Grahame wrote: > Linden Lab has the final say in what goes into the Linden Lab viewer. A > third-party viewer team has the final say in what goes into their viewer. Indeed, but if LL is so close-minded as to reject any change to the UI that would allow v1 lovers to adopt v2, then there is no chance that any v1 developer will migrate to the v2 code base... > Linus Torvalds has the final say in what goes into the Linux kernel. Excepted that: 1.- Linus Torvalds proved over many years to be extremely open minded, something we still have to see happening from Linden Lab's part, I'm afraid. 2.- Comparing an OS such as Linux with a client software is like comparing apples with nuts (and I'm not saying the viewer is nut... although... ;-). The controversial issues with a client are usually dealing with it's UI (which is exactly the case for the SL veiwer) rather than with its core features and algorithms. If you want to compare some other Open Source software with the viewer, then take, for example, Firefox and see how the lead developers of Firefox already said that the UI for v4 will have an option to revert it back to v3 look and feel. If you really want to compare the viewer with an OS, you should have choosen Windows: in Windows XP, I can still configure the OS so that its UI is reverted to Windows95 look and feel... Mozilla and Microsoft know for a fact that the UI is a very touchy matter, and that "old timers" hate it when you remove functionalities that they used hundreds of times a day, making them loose their productivity in the process, thus why Mozilla and Microsoft (among many others) provide full backward pathes to their users, UI-wise. > If you want something in the kernel that Linus doesn't, you can just clone > the main source tree and pull in updates while you make your own changes, > then distribute your own kernel. Distributed version control's great like that, > and it's why we moved to Mercurial. It makes it much easier for third-party > viewers to maintain their own UI features, or contribute them back to us, > while regularly pulling in the improvements we make to the underlying > platform so as to make Second Life better for everyone. Excepted that, for now, it's easier for TPV developers to backport the few useful features from v2 (I did it already for Alpha and Tattoo wearables, as well as for inventory item links), than to build their TPV on the v2 code base and have to redo the whole UI to match their user base needs and wants. If their is no hope for convergence (even as optional, configurable UI switches), there is no hope to see the TPV developers contributing to Snowstorm and isntead of developing new useful features that LL could incorporate in Snowstorm, the TPV developers will waste their time redoing the UI in a way that, obviously, LL will never accept for inclusion in Snowstorm. This is a HUGE waste of coding efforts and power. Regards, Henri. From missannotoole at yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 02:48:57 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <540528.24604.qm@web59107.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I use SLv2 code base viewers unless I need to go into complex build environments. The SLv2 code has a lot of performance issues that don't exist in the 1.x code. And it has nothing to do with avatar attachments since the crashes occur in regions with only me in them. When I need to go to those "fabulous builds" (with ktris/fr measurements in the range of 3 million polys or more) I am forced to use snowglobe 1.4. I think there is a lot of efficiency to be gained from revisiting the menus/commands and considering a multi row user configurable hot bar for people to customize for the modes they operate in. So anyway... How about soliciting requirements from us customers and then letting us customers prioritize them and then you go through the process of explaining why you will or will not implement. Maybe there is a bastion of software methodology expertise amongst us customers and we could organize a requirements system for you. Then the OS developers can choose if they want to continue with the high demand features in a TPV for SL or just take what the customers are asking for to open sim. Oh and metrics accessible to in world devs to back up decisions regarding establishing limits would be good so we can run the tests ourselves and see if we come up with different results. Like how scriptless attachments don't slow me down on tp or crossings so to me the issue people have, as proven by having them get rid of the lousy scripts infesting hair and shoes and then them wearing the scriptless attachments while teleporting and they stop having issues is important. Just making assumptions all attachments are the cause of all issues is an error since the issue appears to solidly be associated with the scripts. >> Linden Lab will absolutely have the final word about what goes into the >>viewer. >> Sure. Of course. I for one have no expectation of LL putting in the jiggle feature. I don't even care because I don't use it nor any viewer with it. But I am one person. From my technical perspective opinion it is a hack and does not take into account chest/neck/pectoral attachments that may be part of an expensive oufit. Therefore it is not what I would call a professional feature because it interferes with or fails dominant use cases and requirements even though it is a very much in demand capability that keeps vast numbers of people from using your viewer as they openly state jiggle is why they do not use LL viewers. >> We're a multi-million dollar business with hundreds of thousands of >>customers, Yes. As long as we customers, as an aggregate group, decide to keep giving you all those millions of dollars. >> some kind of product management and quality control Really? Why do previously fixed defects keep coming back? There is one I have always wondered about. How many times has an LL dev fixed the broken high resolution snapshot feature the majority of businesses rely upon, or rather once upon a time relied upon, for product imagery to create effective marketing? That is just one defect I recall having been fixed 3 times and then obviously overwritten by someone's obsolete code from their hard drive. SQA, or apparent lack of it, is a frequent theme amongst LL bashing festivals in various forums I have seen. Since I am not in your building and privy to your actual processes I can only go by what is observed in your deliverables. As for product management? I can't really go into this topic without getting personal so I won't. BTW large groups of customers screaming at you is a serious symptom the board needs to concern themselves with. IMHO anyway. I suppose you can stop holding office hours and eliminate that issue if people won't maintain their professional bearing and sense of self control in meetings. Is LL even open to constructive feedback about all aspects of LL's product delivery? Or is this restricted only to what LL exposes for feedback? Since this list is OS dev then I am curious about where the feedback mechanisms will be for the other aspects of LL's service delivery. Thank you for the opportunity of having a dialog. ----------------------------- From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: Henri Beauchamp Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 2:56:25 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement I've said this before, and I'll repeat it again here: Don't waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or that we revert the UI to Viewer 1. It is absolutely not going to happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored. That does not mean that we don't recognize that some choices in V2 were not optimal, and that some probably need to be revisited, and we're open to doing that. But we will do it in the context of calm discussions of what problems exist and creative ideas for how to solve them. We are not moving backwards, we are moving forwards. Think about it for a minute - there are an infinite number of possible solutions for how to build a UI for a virtual world viewer - what are the odds that the first or second attempt produced the best possible UI? We need new and creative ideas focused on specific problem descriptions. That is all described on our process documentation pages on the wiki, but I'll hit the high points here: ----------------- * Linden Lab will absolutely have the final word about what goes into the viewer. >We're a multi-million dollar business with hundreds of thousands of >customers, and we need to deploy a coherent and reliable software product >to them. If anyone thinks they can do that without some kind of product >management and quality control, they are welcome to go build a business >the size and complexity of ours and demonstrate it. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/0b884aa5/attachment-0001.htm From latifer at streamgrid.net Tue Aug 17 03:01:16 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:01:16 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:27 AM, Yoz Grahame wrote: > > The Snowstorm project is aimed at dramatically increasing community > involvement in Viewer development and improving communications around it. Very nice words indeed. But not new. Shall we look into what happens when user experience clashes with, in my view, a very short sighted decision by one of the "product owners". Is it "our JIRA, you lose", or does improving user experience really matters. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1819 Patch is attached and tested. Latif From mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com Tue Aug 17 04:52:37 2010 From: mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com (mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:52:37 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: I have to say, making new users a top priority was one of the most disappointing things I have heard LL say. Usually paying customers get top priority. What about people that have been with them for years and supported them. What about all these designers that sweat hours to make products. I think this gets to the core of V2, most of us weren't asking for a new viewer, we were asking for many other things. And when I see press releases that say how V2 will be the new state of the art viewer and we get something that shows such little understanding of the communities needs, it shows that this is not a technical problem, but something much deeper in how LL develops products. So much of the user interface, V1.23 as well, makes designing take much longer than it should. Like having to rezz objects to edit their contents. Ever have to rezz hundreds of boxes to update something? Or correct the permissions. Have to rezz a box to get to its contents I think is one of the most difficult things for new people. Having to rezz objects to get to stuff, then copy to inventory, then find it in inventory, etc. All this time on making a new viewer could have been used to make inventory better. I think the whole conversation on V1.23 UI compared to V2 UI I find totally sad. Architecturally it seems to me the goal should be a UI layer that can be implemented many different ways because with this many people one viewer is not the solution for everyone. I personally see at least 4 UI implementations that are needed, 1) web based light weight. 2) Mobile, maybe no 3D. 3. Typical user. 4. Power user or designer. Most other companies are able to do this from one code base. Additionally I can see some other tools that could exist for developers, script debuggers, terrain editors, offline clothes editors, lots of stuff. Trying to make power users and designers use the same edit tools that new users use I think will limit your content creation. On a side note, I often have to logged out of SL because it is consuming to much resources on my computer, but I would prefer to stay logged in to support my customers and be involved in the groups I am in. Why can't I have an option to turn off rendering? Maybe it exist and I don't know it? What also gets left out of all these conversations is why I have to go to an external open source community, and thank god they exist, to use a network layer. Why doesn't LL take this layer more seriously and have supported network layer, developer API's etc. to write bots and other applications that can use the SL platform. As much as bots get a bad name there are real applications that need them. What about a scripting language on the client side so I can create commands to reduce repetitive things? So I really have to ask myself has anything really changed. And I would have to say from what I have seen so far I don't hear anything that really helps me be creating content faster, cheaper, better. -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Lance Corrimal Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:25 AM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement On Tuesday 17 August 2010 00:39:53 Mike Monkowski wrote: > Bryon Ruxton wrote: > > I think addressing the hurdles that prevent people still on 1.23 to > > move to 2.0 before you get into > > > > "Rapid, effective deployment of new features and functionality." is the > > > > most urgent priority in my opinion. > > Seconded. Thirded. The "Top Priority" should NOT be getting new users (while it of course should be high on the list), but it should be keeping the old, established users from leaving in disgust... you know, the ones that are already spending money, own sims, have a Second Life. How many big shops / brands have closed lately with statements like "I dont like SL anymore"...? Here's my personal "Like/Dislike" list about 2.x, with my own personal suggestions for improvements or what to port from 1.x: Like: the general feel of the new UI and the more streamlined menu Dislike: The color scheme (makes a lot of stuff hard to read); Suggestion: port the color scheme from 1.x (old one, not the lightblue one), or maybe the orageisch scheme from the starlight skin Dislike: the sidebar, and all that comes with it (Strong) Suggestion: make all UI elements that are not part of the menu, the toolbar or the chat bar non-modal dialogs where possible, modal dialogs only where necessary. Dislike: the fact that a lot of textures for profiles and such have changed size, forcing people to redo their profiles and "About Land", breaking them for 1.23 users by doing so Suggestion: get the old sizes back (see http://is.gd/elgvO) (Totally) Dislike: The way the profile shows first life and second life tab at the same time. If I wanted to flaunt my RL I would be on facebook. Facebook, by the way, still does not allow "Fake Personalities" and thusly is NO place for SecondLife avatars. Suggestion: Put Secondlife Tab and First Life Tab back on separated tabs, or at least use the "collapsible" firstlife section from starlight hope this list helps a bit. bye, LC _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From aimee at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 05:03:51 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:03:51 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fwd: Successful Build Nr. 208114 for oz_viewer-development (39db065f8899) on Darwin In-Reply-To: References: <20100815161839.BEA1BE2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <6AC0FEDA-B921-4F7C-A09C-7A8AA369C98E@lindenlab.com> There's a problem with the Windows build at the moment in that it's using an old version of llkdu.dll, sorry about that my fault completely for not noticing, we'll get it fixed ASAP. In the mean time you should be able to drop in llkdu.dll in from a recent Release or Snowglobe build to get it going as a work around. Aimee. On 16 Aug 2010, at 13:54, Patnad Babii wrote: > The CYGWIN (?!!!) build not working on Windows 7 ? 64 Bits, using latest Nvidia drivers on a X260 graphic card. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/1d81855f/attachment.htm From makosoft at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 05:14:25 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:14:25 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On 8/16/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > Think about it for a minute - there are an infinite number of possible > solutions for how to build a UI for a virtual world viewer - what are > the odds that the first or second attempt produced the best possible > UI? We need new and creative ideas focused on specific problem > descriptions. The trouble is - and I've said this before - that whoever designed the New, Shiny and Improved Viewer 2.0 interface clearly didn't think too much about why the Viewer 1.0 UI was designed the way it was, what advantages this has, or how it was actually used. For example, this shows up in the replacement of pie menus with standard right-click menus. The big advantage of pie menus is that they're fast to use - all the entries are large and easy to hit with the mouse. The new right-click menu, on the other hand, has really tiny entries that make you hunt with the mouse. Unlike in Second Life, in most applications the right-click menu is not intended as the main way to interact with the application - anything commonly-used can be accessed in another faster way. Then there's the sidebar and the impossibility of opening more than one person's profile at once, or of getting back to someone's profile once you've clicked on one of the groups listed therein... Oh, and Viewer 2 is still a bit hit and miss about making keyboard shortcuts for commonly-used functionality discoverable in some places. For example, I'm not sure if the shortcuts for Always Run or Fly/Stop Flying are displayed anywhere. From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 17 05:53:51 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:53:51 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= In-Reply-To: <4C69D6B6.70001@gmail.com> References: <4C697B5E.80806@lindenlab.com> <4C6985B4.8070401@gmail.com> <20100816204424.ba2f9bb3.sldev@free.fr> <201008162132.19096.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C69D6B6.70001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009001cb3e0b$3e99a490$bbccedb0$@net> I have been looking @ the hg interface for TortiosHG and from what I can tell it dose alloy you to view the commits and all notes concerning that commit. -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Kadah Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] list for builds from the new snowstorm viewer-development repository?= -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I like getting the commit notices as well, and I can filter them how I prefer. Though as Oz stated at the meeting, 2 separate lists for builds and commits would not be a bad idea giving that the number of publicly visiable commits per day should be increasing soon. On 8/16/2010 12:42 PM, Zabb65 wrote: > I'll stop in and say that it would be useful if you used the existing > mailing list address as well. And would appreciate emails on commits. > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 15:32, Lance Corrimal wrote: >> Am Monday 16 August 2010 schrieb Henri Beauchamp: >>> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:38:44 -0700, Kadah wrote: >>>>> Would it be useful if I set up a one-way mailing list for >>>>> announcements of build results for the new viewer-development >>>>> repository? >>>> >>>> Why not use the existing one, sldev-commits at lists.secondlife.com? >>> >>> Seconded. >> >> thirded (is there such a word?) >> >> LC >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMada2AAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2VvUH/iHnehr7O7NrN1++qzbdUVVS cTyzKoi8cbWqHz5/wKFD17HVBIriYlg61ECW4z+0o6y0Jdu/Cam/0ArWhFyuxrYx pJmHA51TdjqmkPXEkwBZj0UZbYWfjUGGBCa94UEU14YJxsAHiHhnDRknZFz0sNnr liKQpZBetuEUJLzL6JUpXX8lMRHGrNV8jnzAe1T+ZXbuzMGQ8mSGOqhjSwn0iHui YF1Q6s2OY9X9Lcd2EYnarUsQ1UQ1aWv4p1p2r/3CbRnaCmcmVsJLai9UDBTbGb6Y sWujbrdrCDeXeE0BU8OfOJleIDIEY7y3w7RxOGPaO/lJYvG3fmi9iFsnnbpU+a0= =gqLE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3077 - Release Date: 08/17/10 02:35:00 From wdemauro at verizon.net Tue Aug 17 05:58:36 2010 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:58:36 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5D75B6764F6A4268B6E8AA30E859F125@WillPC> "It is absolutely not going to happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored." So much for "It's your world your imagination" This has been apparent for some time now. Thanks for being 100% clear and now I think we have found the issue that keeps LL firmly planted in "It's our world our imagination" enjoy the decline, blame it on metrics, the economy your next door neighbor and his little dog too. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Latif Khalifa" Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 6:01 AM To: "Yoz Grahame" Cc: Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:27 AM, Yoz Grahame wrote: >> >> The Snowstorm project is aimed at dramatically increasing community >> involvement in Viewer development and improving communications around it. > > Very nice words indeed. But not new. Shall we look into what happens > when user experience clashes with, in my view, a very short sighted > decision by one of the "product owners". Is it "our JIRA, you lose", > or does improving user experience really matters. > > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-1819 > > Patch is attached and tested. > > Latif > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/6b794f6a/attachment.htm From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 17 06:21:19 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:21:19 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <009701cb3e0f$146b50c0$3d41f240$@net> 1. LL had added some nice features to the viewer that make the NEW user experience good. 2. If some one wants to make a 'skin' that gives the 'apperance' of the old UI while maintain the functionality of the new UI I think that would be the best path to take. -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Henri Beauchamp Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:45 AM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:27:34 -0700, Yoz Grahame wrote: > Linden Lab has the final say in what goes into the Linden Lab viewer. A > third-party viewer team has the final say in what goes into their viewer. Indeed, but if LL is so close-minded as to reject any change to the UI that would allow v1 lovers to adopt v2, then there is no chance that any v1 developer will migrate to the v2 code base... > Linus Torvalds has the final say in what goes into the Linux kernel. Excepted that: 1.- Linus Torvalds proved over many years to be extremely open minded, something we still have to see happening from Linden Lab's part, I'm afraid. 2.- Comparing an OS such as Linux with a client software is like comparing apples with nuts (and I'm not saying the viewer is nut... although... ;-). The controversial issues with a client are usually dealing with it's UI (which is exactly the case for the SL veiwer) rather than with its core features and algorithms. If you want to compare some other Open Source software with the viewer, then take, for example, Firefox and see how the lead developers of Firefox already said that the UI for v4 will have an option to revert it back to v3 look and feel. If you really want to compare the viewer with an OS, you should have choosen Windows: in Windows XP, I can still configure the OS so that its UI is reverted to Windows95 look and feel... Mozilla and Microsoft know for a fact that the UI is a very touchy matter, and that "old timers" hate it when you remove functionalities that they used hundreds of times a day, making them loose their productivity in the process, thus why Mozilla and Microsoft (among many others) provide full backward pathes to their users, UI-wise. > If you want something in the kernel that Linus doesn't, you can just clone > the main source tree and pull in updates while you make your own changes, > then distribute your own kernel. Distributed version control's great like that, > and it's why we moved to Mercurial. It makes it much easier for third-party > viewers to maintain their own UI features, or contribute them back to us, > while regularly pulling in the improvements we make to the underlying > platform so as to make Second Life better for everyone. Excepted that, for now, it's easier for TPV developers to backport the few useful features from v2 (I did it already for Alpha and Tattoo wearables, as well as for inventory item links), than to build their TPV on the v2 code base and have to redo the whole UI to match their user base needs and wants. If their is no hope for convergence (even as optional, configurable UI switches), there is no hope to see the TPV developers contributing to Snowstorm and isntead of developing new useful features that LL could incorporate in Snowstorm, the TPV developers will waste their time redoing the UI in a way that, obviously, LL will never accept for inclusion in Snowstorm. This is a HUGE waste of coding efforts and power. Regards, Henri. _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3077 - Release Date: 08/17/10 02:35:00 From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 06:37:47 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:37:47 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where are the auto builds? Message-ID: The auto builds (at least for 1.5) seem to have stopped. Can this please be fixed asap? Aleric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/5bf638f8/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Tue Aug 17 06:48:39 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:48:39 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where are the auto builds? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008171548.39582.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Tuesday 17 August 2010 15:37:47 Aleric Inglewood wrote: > The auto builds (at least for 1.5) seem to have stopped. > Can this please be fixed asap? seconded. bye, LC From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Tue Aug 17 07:31:09 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:31:09 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] [IDEA] Access to Object content without rezzing. (was: Open Viewer Development Announcement) In-Reply-To: References: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C6A9D2D.2090801@boroon.dasgupta.ch> [I'm cross posting this to several mailing lists to solicit feedback. To avoid clutter, please *do not reply to all of them* when answering, unless there's a valid reason to do so. To avoid scattering the discussion, please *do reply to sl-ux at lists.secondlife.com * when answering. Thanks!] On 08/17/2010 01:52 PM, mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com wrote : > [...] V1.23 as well, makes designing take much > longer than it should. Like having to rezz objects to edit their contents. > Ever have to rezz hundreds of boxes to update something? Or correct the > permissions. Have to rezz a box to get to its contents I think is one of > the most difficult things for new people. Having to rezz objects to get to > stuff, then copy to inventory, then find it in inventory, etc. I have made a suggestion on how to solve this UI-wise at VWR-2427 Allow objects containing other items to be expanded within the Inventory . I'd like to hear about other approaches, too! The main problem when coming up with complete solution for these use cases is, though, that they'll probably require some fundamental changes on the (non-opensource) server side: As far as I know, currently, Object Inventory is served by the Region, and the Region only knows about rezzed Objects. So either a way would have to be added for the Region to proxy non-rezzed Objects to the client or clients would have to be granted direct (or other indirect) access to the asset storage system. I think the same goes for the Object assets themselves, so these restrictions not only apply to manipulating an Object's content, but also to editing the Object itself without rezzing it (e.g. changing it's size, shape or color). I don't know if the AD /RD separation of OGP/AWG/VWRAP will help here, thus CCing their mailing list. Maybe someone from there can shed some light on this. cheers Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/0c747188/attachment.htm From marinekelley at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 07:45:46 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:45:46 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] [IDEA] Access to Object content without rezzing. (was: Open Viewer Development Announcement) In-Reply-To: <4C6A9D2D.2090801@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6A9D2D.2090801@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: Eep ! I hope it won't bring its own share of permission defects ! This is VERY sensitive matter that is being fiddled with here ! On 17 August 2010 16:31, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > [I'm cross posting this to several mailing lists to solicit feedback. To > avoid clutter, please *do not reply to all of them* when answering, unless > there's a valid reason to do so. To avoid scattering the discussion, please > *do reply to sl-ux at lists.secondlife.com > * when answering. Thanks!] > > On 08/17/2010 01:52 PM, mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com wrote: > > > [...] V1.23 as well, makes designing take much > longer than it should. Like having to rezz objects to edit their contents. > Ever have to rezz hundreds of boxes to update something? Or correct the > permissions. Have to rezz a box to get to its contents I think is one of > the most difficult things for new people. Having to rezz objects to get to > stuff, then copy to inventory, then find it in inventory, etc. > > I have made a suggestion on how to solve this UI-wise at VWR-2427 Allow > objects containing other items to be expanded within the Inventory. > I'd like to hear about other approaches, too! > > The main problem when coming up with complete solution for these use cases > is, though, that they'll probably require some fundamental changes on the > (non-opensource) server side: > > As far as I know, currently, Object Inventory is served by the Region, and > the Region only knows about rezzed Objects. So either a way would have to be > added for the Region to proxy non-rezzed Objects to the client or clients > would have to be granted direct (or other indirect) access to the asset > storage system. > > I think the same goes for the Object assets themselves, so these > restrictions not only apply to manipulating an Object's content, but also to > editing the Object itself without rezzing it (e.g. changing it's size, shape > or color). > > I don't know if the AD /RDseparation of OGP/AWG/VWRAP will help here, thus CCing their mailing list. > Maybe someone from there can shed some light on this. > > cheers > Boroondas > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/48faf881/attachment.htm From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Tue Aug 17 08:21:41 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:21:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] no 3D; was: Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <4C69BE39.1090106@fishkill.ibm.com> <201008170924.50215.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C6AA905.4090706@fishkill.ibm.com> mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com wrote: > ... I personally see at least 4 UI > implementations that are needed, 1) web based light weight. 2) Mobile, > maybe no 3D. 3. Typical user. 4. Power user or designer. "no 3D" That's an interesting idea. At first it seems that having 3D would be essential, but if the server were to render a 2-1/2 D image from a fixed angle, then that image could easily be streamed to a web browser or mobile device for all avatars on the sim. The client could center the image on its avatar to give the proper viewpoint or the server could do the clipping before sending to each client. You'd still have to worry about occlusion of avatars by objects (I can't see myself!), so perhaps four streams could be generated from the four compass directions so that the user could choose among the four viewpoints. This wouldn't be a complete solution because it wouldn't handle avatars inside buildings, but with a bit of thought, something could be worked out. Obviously, you wouldn't get the same experience as with 3D, but that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be collaboration and social interaction. Facebook doesn't have 3D, but it does alright in that respect. Mike From open at autistici.org Tue Aug 17 08:33:06 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:33:06 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6A1BD3.2070804@madonie.org> References: <4C6A1BD3.2070804@madonie.org> Message-ID: <2c44f7511a638a5dd8482648b2aa3027@localhost> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:19:15 +0200, Laurent Bechir wrote: > Bryon Ruxton a ?crit : >> Mike, >> >> First of all, I said "us" in the context of those, like Henri, who >> hate the sidebar. As for "we" in general, "us" and "we" still don't work. "hating a sidebar" is not a serious approach to UI. don't hate, fix & improve it or desist. >> it is the majority who says they hate or dislike viewer 2.0 as >> indicated by multiple polls >> or articles like the following, justifying the word "we" (i.e. the >> overall majority of Residents who gave their opinion) No, these aren't really justifications. >> http://www.questionpro.com/akira/ShowResults?id=1604314&mode=data >> >> (75% disliking or hating the sidebar here.) >> http://blogs.secondlife.com/poll.jspa?poll=1017 >> http://blogs.secondlife.com/poll.jspa?poll=1018 >> http://polldaddy.com/poll/3048677/?view=results >> http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/03/20-not-increasing-growth.html >> >> Thus it's not my personal feelings. I check my facts before I say >> something. >> > > When I look at the polls and I see figures like 1489 (max), 508, 367 or > 75 participants, and that I compare those figures to the number of > people connecting to SecondLife every day, I think that those polls > represent more a little community in SL than the majority and that since > it is the only one who talk, they make a lot of noise (in forum on other > matters I also see more unhappy people talking than happy ones who > generally remain silent, which make that they are not really > representative for me). Also,it should be interesting to deepen the > arguments of the voters against viewer 2 in those polls. "Seconded". I find all claims of knowing what "SL users want" to be irrelevant; I assume & I hope LL shares this approach. It's not a secret that SL users have quite different needs and every user feedback should be supposed to be partial and specific to a particular subset of userbase. Opensource Obscure From danielravennest at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 09:12:36 2010 From: danielravennest at gmail.com (Daniel) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:12:36 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C6AB4F4.6040804@gmail.com> @ Henri - Indeed, it was the lack of interest in completing a User's Manual for the viewer that caused me to look to other pastures. This is after 6 years of development, you still had not documented your product. Myself and several other people wrote most of a manual (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User%27s_Manual), and to date no Linden has contributed in any significant way to filling in the holes. I got discouraged and looked elsewhere, and found a company that actually listens to it's users, content creators, and landowners. Their user client may reach what I consider beta status in the next release in the next few weeks, or if not then, the one after that, so yes, things might change soon. On the subject of users knowledge, the average number of residents online outnumbers the average number of Lindens online by 1000 to 1. There is a vast repository of experience there, which should be leveraged. Someone commented that polls of hundreds to about 1000 users is not the majority of SL population. Polls are valid to within a few percent at that scale if they are a representative sample of the population. Self-selected polls like the ones mentioned don't generate a random sample, but a login poll can do that: Ask residents regularly on login "What viewer are you using, what do you like most, what do you like least, what would you add or change?" Then adjust the response numbers to match the total resident population demographics. Getting constant feedback in this way will do two things. Get you the actual data on what residents want, and also give them the feeling that you are listening. Getting the results back to OS Devs will help point us at what needs doing. The only specific technical recommendation I can make is to have a "basic" default UI with the most commonly used menus and buttons, and then a Preferences tab to activate sets of added menus/buttons/windows for various uses: building, land management, etc. That way you have a single code base, but "versions" that are optimized for different purposes. Oh, and finish the damn User's Manual and put a link to it in the registration email. Maybe you will retain more new players that way now that you are doing away with the Orientation Islands. Writing the code is only part of the job. Telling people how to use it is just as important. > From: Henri Beauchamp > This is this kind of extremely arrogant arguments that LL keeps showing > up year after year, and that discourage people from helping and encourage > then to search elsewhere for greener pastures... > > You (LL) are lucky that you do not yet have direct competitors, since > the fact there is (for now), no other "pasture" preserves you from a > massive mass emigration. But things might change, and quicker than you > might expect... > We, however, have an HUGE advantage on you, Lindens: we are *using* SL,be it for building, scripting, roleplaying (either freeform RP or combat RP, which are two different matters), running businesses, exploring, communicating, etc... And by USING SL, we KNOW what we NEED in the viewer. > I doubt very much the people behind the viewer 2 UI desing ever actually used SL like we do ! > > > From: Ann Otoole > > How about soliciting requirements from us customers and then letting us > customers prioritize them and then you go through the process of explaining why > you will or will not implement. Maybe there is a bastion of software methodology > expertise amongst us customers and we could organize a requirements system for > you. From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Tue Aug 17 14:34:36 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:34:36 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? Message-ID: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> ... http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, does it? or could the whole login panel + auth code in 1.5 adapted to a username that consists of ONE string and no last name? bye, LC From soft at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 14:41:44 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:41:44 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > ... > http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- > names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life > > ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, > does it? Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of the blog post). Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace usernames in any location within an old viewer. -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From andromedaquonset at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 14:44:31 2010 From: andromedaquonset at gmail.com (Andromeda Quonset) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:44:31 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> Andromeda Quonset groans very loudly. How can we get this new "feature" cancelled before it ever gets implemented? Seriously. Very bad idea. At 03:34 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >... >http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- >names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life > > >... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, >does it? > > >or could the whole login panel + auth code in 1.5 adapted to a >username that consists of ONE string and no last name? > > >bye, >LC >_______________________________________________ >Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From soft at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 14:54:20 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:54:20 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Andromeda Quonset wrote: > Andromeda Quonset groans very loudly. > > How can we get this new "feature" cancelled before it ever gets > implemented? ?Seriously. ?Very bad idea. In the comments on that blog post, they say there will be a public beta. I would: 1) Come up with insurmountable problems during open beta or provide other convincing feedback on why you think it's a bad idea, and 2) get it in a JIRA that's linked to that project's meta JIRA (make that if it doesn't exist yet - before open beta it may not) or get it in the blog feedback from posts like today's announcement -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From bryon at slearth.com Tue Aug 17 15:13:53 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:13:53 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As you are implementing this, you may to consider forcing capitalization via JavaScript or else on the first name (from the official actual username) e.g. "first Linden" look bad as if there is a typo in there and such proper nouns are normally capitalized. I have always found it annoying to see lowercase first names. It is probably mostly a result of omissions, but also tends to happen more frequently with younger users. And as we "officially" will get 16 and 17 years old it is much more likely to happen. It happens a lot in shopping carts or any web user database if you don't automatically capitalize first and last names or addresses by code, which I now tend to do to prevent such inconsistence in postage labels, etc... It would make for a more consistent database too. On 8/17/10 2:41 PM, "Brian McGroarty" wrote: > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal > wrote: >> ... >> http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- >> names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life >> >> ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, >> does it? > > Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log > in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their > first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference > between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of > the blog post). > > Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real > change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever > have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace > usernames in any location within an old viewer. From serra.anansi at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 15:23:54 2010 From: serra.anansi at gmail.com (Serra Anansi) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:23:54 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The fact that people have lower case first names isn't always a typo, in many cases it is intended. Please do not force capitalization on names. On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton wrote: > As you are implementing this, you may to consider forcing capitalization > via > JavaScript or else on the first name (from the official actual username) > e.g. "first Linden" look bad as if there is a typo in there and such proper > nouns are normally capitalized. > > I have always found it annoying to see lowercase first names. It is > probably > mostly a result of omissions, but also tends to happen more frequently with > younger users. And as we "officially" will get 16 and 17 years old it is > much more likely to happen. > > It happens a lot in shopping carts or any web user database if you don't > automatically capitalize first and last names or addresses by code, which I > now tend to do to prevent such inconsistence in postage labels, etc... > It would make for a more consistent database too. > > On 8/17/10 2:41 PM, "Brian McGroarty" wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal > > wrote: > >> ... > >> http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- > >> names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life > >> > >> ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, > >> does it? > > > > Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log > > in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their > > first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference > > between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of > > the blog post). > > > > Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real > > change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever > > have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace > > usernames in any location within an old viewer. > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/9a4b1314/attachment.htm From andromedaquonset at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 15:45:40 2010 From: andromedaquonset at gmail.com (Andromeda Quonset) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:45:40 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> Brian, Thank you for responding. I have already left a post in the blog feedback, but I don't expect anything I post there to be taken seriously. Most of what I work on in-world are scripts. I am concerned about such things as llDetectedName and llKey2name getting confused and making scripts malfunction. I assume that llDetectedKey would return the correct key regardless. It appears to me that if I create a script using viewer 1.X, it will show as being created by Andromeda Quonset. It also appears to me that if I create the same script using a 2.X viewer, that it will say it was created by Andromeda Resident. In some of my products, I have access controls based on the name of the AV that touched the product. The script in that product will have a notecard containing the avatar names of those AV's that are permitted to use the product. Names being easier to work with than keys for some people. The notecard presumably gets read into a list within the script. The list is checked against the name that is returned by llDetectedName to determine access. If llDetectedName should return Andromeda Resident instead of Andromeda Quonset, and the list only has Andromeda Quonset in it, then access won't be permitted. list accessList; //assume names of av's that were entered into a notecard, and subsequently read into this list string userName; touch_start(integer num_detected) { userName = llDetectedName(0); if(llListFindList(accessList,[userName]) == -1) { llWhisper(0,"You are not on the access list, " + username); //tell AV he isn't allowed to use this } else { userFunction(); //do whatever function the AV is allowed to do } } It seems to me that there is going to need to be a distinctive set of LSL functions to accompany the display names. These might include llDetectedDisplayName, llKey2DisplayName, and llDisplayName2Key. It also seems likely that such new functions would only get implemented in a 2.X compiler, which is going to create an inter operability issue, which I think would be obvious. Do you need some examples of these? Andromeda At 03:54 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Andromeda Quonset > wrote: > > Andromeda Quonset groans very loudly. > > > > How can we get this new "feature" cancelled before it ever gets > > implemented? Seriously. Very bad idea. > >In the comments on that blog post, they say there will be a public >beta. I would: > >1) Come up with insurmountable problems during open beta or provide >other convincing feedback on why you think it's a bad idea, and >2) get it in a JIRA that's linked to that project's meta JIRA (make >that if it doesn't exist yet - before open beta it may not) or get it >in the blog feedback from posts like today's announcement > >-- >Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab >Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From erikba at odysseus.anderson.name Tue Aug 17 15:47:50 2010 From: erikba at odysseus.anderson.name (Erik Anderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:47:50 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: My interpretation of what was said is that the script using a 2.X viewer would NOT say "Andromeda Resident", SL is just stating that users in the future will not be asked for a last name when they sign up, all new users after that point would have a last name of "Resident", which the 2.X viewers would likely hide. On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Andromeda Quonset < andromedaquonset at gmail.com> wrote: > It appears to me that if I create a script using viewer 1.X, it will > show as being created by Andromeda Quonset. It also appears to me > that if I create the same script using a 2.X viewer, that it will say > it was created by Andromeda Resident. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/4d6d4a09/attachment-0001.htm From andromedaquonset at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 15:51:20 2010 From: andromedaquonset at gmail.com (Andromeda Quonset) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:51:20 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Indeed. Wasn't there an issue in recent weeks/month with regard to the forum software and the case of the first letter of a name? At 04:23 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >The fact that people have lower case first names isn't always a >typo, in many cases it is intended. Please do not force >capitalization on names. > > > >On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton ><bryon at slearth.com> wrote: >As you are implementing this, you may to consider forcing capitalization via >JavaScript or else on the first name (from the official actual username) >e.g. "first Linden" look bad as if there is a typo in there and such proper >nouns are normally capitalized. > >I have always found it annoying to see lowercase first names. It is probably >mostly a result of omissions, but also tends to happen more frequently with >younger users. And as we "officially" will get 16 and 17 years old it is >much more likely to happen. > >It happens a lot in shopping carts or any web user database if you don't >automatically capitalize first and last names or addresses by code, which I >now tend to do to prevent such inconsistence in postage labels, etc... >It would make for a more consistent database too. > >On 8/17/10 2:41 PM, "Brian McGroarty" ><soft at lindenlab.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal > > <Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de> wrote: > >> ... > >> > http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- > >> names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life > >> > >> ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, > >> does it? > > > > Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log > > in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their > > first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference > > between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of > > the blog post). > > > > Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real > > change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever > > have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace > > usernames in any location within an old viewer. > > >_______________________________________________ >Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > >_______________________________________________ >Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/af22129e/attachment.htm From soft at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 15:54:44 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:54:44 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: This is correct. Andromeda Quonset will be Andromeda Quonset forever. At some point, new residents won't be able to choose a last name - only these will be "Resident" No existing script function will return different results than it does today. New script functions are added for fetching/referencing Display Names. On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Erik Anderson wrote: > My interpretation of what was said is that the script using a 2.X viewer > would NOT say "Andromeda Resident", SL is just stating that users in the > future will not be asked for a last name when they sign up, all new users > after that point would have a last name of "Resident", which the 2.X viewers > would likely hide. > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Andromeda Quonset > wrote: >> >> It appears to me that if I create a script using viewer 1.X, it will >> show as being created by Andromeda Quonset. ?It also appears to me >> that if I create the same script using a 2.X viewer, that it will say >> it was created by Andromeda Resident. > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From erikba at odysseus.anderson.name Tue Aug 17 15:57:31 2010 From: erikba at odysseus.anderson.name (Erik Anderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:57:31 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I wouldn't say "forever", I suspect a few years down the line it would be transitioned to "Andromeda.Quonset Resident" and then permanently drop the last name... On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Brian McGroarty wrote: > This is correct. Andromeda Quonset will be Andromeda Quonset forever. > At some point, new residents won't be able to choose a last name - > only these will be "Resident" > > No existing script function will return different results than it does > today. New script functions are added for fetching/referencing Display > Names. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/fdb53090/attachment.htm From dahliatrimble at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:01:01 2010 From: dahliatrimble at gmail.com (Dahlia Trimble) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:01:01 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Great. Now I can look forward to "Dahlia9993482 Resident" -dahlia (case intentional) On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Erik Anderson < erikba at odysseus.anderson.name> wrote: > I wouldn't say "forever", I suspect a few years down the line it would be > transitioned to "Andromeda.Quonset Resident" and then permanently drop the > last name... > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Brian McGroarty wrote: > >> This is correct. Andromeda Quonset will be Andromeda Quonset forever. >> At some point, new residents won't be able to choose a last name - >> only these will be "Resident" >> >> No existing script function will return different results than it does >> today. New script functions are added for fetching/referencing Display >> Names. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/a10c6c2a/attachment.htm From kelly at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 16:04:19 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:04:19 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: You will be Andromeda Quonset across all viewers and all scripts. All existing scripts and new scripts using the existing functions will continue to get Andromeda Quonset. You will *never* be Andromeda Resident (unless you make another account after the change takes effect). Andromeda Resident would be a completely separate account from Andromeda Quonset, just as Andromeda Omega would be today. 'Resident' is just the final last name, and is treated specially on new viewers to be hidden from view when displayed. Your account will NOT change to Andromeda Resident. It will NOT change to Andromeda.Quonset Resident. Resident will not be tacked onto the end of any existing avatar's name. All existing script library calls will forever more continue to return the 'full name'. Existing lists of avatars will continue to match their list of avatars. There will be some potential confusion for new residents who will identify as "John12345" or "John Smith" but not "John12345 Resident". There will be entirely new LSL function calls to handle display names. - Kelly On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Andromeda Quonset < andromedaquonset at gmail.com> wrote: > Indeed. Wasn't there an issue in recent weeks/month with regard to the > forum software and the case of the first letter of a name? > > > At 04:23 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: > > The fact that people have lower case first names isn't always a typo, in > many cases it is intended. Please do not force capitalization on names. > > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton wrote: > As you are implementing this, you may to consider forcing capitalization > via > JavaScript or else on the first name (from the official actual username) > e.g. "first Linden" look bad as if there is a typo in there and such proper > nouns are normally capitalized. > > I have always found it annoying to see lowercase first names. It is > probably > mostly a result of omissions, but also tends to happen more frequently with > younger users. And as we "officially" will get 16 and 17 years old it is > much more likely to happen. > > It happens a lot in shopping carts or any web user database if you don't > automatically capitalize first and last names or addresses by code, which I > now tend to do to prevent such inconsistence in postage labels, etc... > It would make for a more consistent database too. > > On 8/17/10 2:41 PM, "Brian McGroarty" wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal > > < Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de> wrote: > >> ... > >> http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- > >> names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life > >> > >> ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, > >> does it? > > > > Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log > > in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their > > first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference > > between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of > > the blog post). > > > > Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real > > change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever > > have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace > > usernames in any location within an old viewer. > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/9a8a611e/attachment-0001.htm From andromedaquonset at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:13:26 2010 From: andromedaquonset at gmail.com (Andromeda Quonset) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:13:26 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> Sighs. I see you misunderstood. Perhaps I have, too, in usage of the word "Resident". In my post, where I referenced "Andromeda Resident", change that to "Andromeda DisplayName" In a script that has been compiled to use a new function, presumably compiled under a 2.X viewer, when an AV that is logged-in under a 1.X viewer, and activates the script compiled under 2.X, will need to have results returned to him based on a 1.X compilation, and not a 2.X compilation in order to not cause a runtime error. I doubt I will be doing any scripting anytime soon in a Client 2 environment, given the major issues I have with viewer, like the entire world being a 4 x 4 inch area to work from in the middle of my 22" widescreen with great big blacked-out edges to fill-in around that 4 x 4 inch area. And there is the issue of the script editor being seriously broken. Can't edit scripts without a script editor. And there is the issue of doing an uninstall of the 2.X client, and having it delete 5 years of chat dialog as it tidies up after itself. Best thing as I see it is to not implement it. Maybe in 2012 we can look revisit it. At 04:54 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >This is correct. Andromeda Quonset will be Andromeda Quonset forever. >At some point, new residents won't be able to choose a last name - >only these will be "Resident" > >No existing script function will return different results than it does >today. New script functions are added for fetching/referencing Display >Names. > >On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Erik Anderson > wrote: > > My interpretation of what was said is that the script using a 2.X viewer > > would NOT say "Andromeda Resident", SL is just stating that users in the > > future will not be asked for a last name when they sign up, all new users > > after that point would have a last name of "Resident", which the > 2.X viewers > > would likely hide. > > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Andromeda Quonset > > wrote: > >> > >> It appears to me that if I create a script using viewer 1.X, it will > >> show as being created by Andromeda Quonset. It also appears to me > >> that if I create the same script using a 2.X viewer, that it will say > >> it was created by Andromeda Resident. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > > > >-- >Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab >Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From jacek.antonelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:14:49 2010 From: jacek.antonelli at gmail.com (Jacek Antonelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:14:49 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > > ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, > does it? I'm sure third party viewer developers are capable of backporting something as simple as display names. ;-) (Besides all the points mentioned above about how you will still be able to log in with old viewers even if they don't support display names.) - Jacek From bryon at slearth.com Tue Aug 17 16:16:25 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:16:25 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry if lacked clarification, I was referring to the "current" residents names (as capitalized), NOT the new display name which will become the person's username as I understand it. Because of the added flexibility with Display Names, I see it a good opportunity to enforce the official First and Last name both capitalized when shown and possibly clean up the legacy database of "First & Last" names. i.e. Someone named currently named "iama Linden" would be changed automatically to Iama Linden as his display name which he can change to lower case via his display name box he chooses so, like dahlia here does. Even if that was to apply to future usernames "when first chosen". You could very well enforce a first capital and still allow for lowercase display names after that, or even have a checkbox to prevent the automatic JavaScript capitalization at registration. But it would fair to say that lack of fist name capitalization due to users omission is much more common than a deliberate intent coming from the user. So I view "initial capitalization" as a default setting for that reason. And 2. you should also prevent anyone to use a display name baring the name of an existing username in my opinion. As per the FAQs: >Will you limit the number of people who use a particular Display Name? >No, because you can use username to uniquely identify individual avatars. There can be many Residents using John Smith as their Display Name, but you can discover which is which by looking at their username ? for example, in their profile. That's prone to problems of deceptive impersonations of existing avatar names and misunderstandings. Any display name should check against the username db. On 8/17/10 3:20 PM, "Marc Adored" wrote: > The purpose of this is to give people more freedom to express > themselves in their name. Therefore enforcing capitalization would > hinder that idea. A lot of people have usernames that are not > capitalized for a reason either for expression or because its to mimic > the proper name of something they like. like someone using iMonster or > something is a spoof of apples uses of lowercase i in front of their > products and people use it to mimic or mock apple. > > hope you understand what im trying to get to > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton wrote: >> As you are implementing this, you may to consider forcing capitalization via >> JavaScript or else on the first name (from the official actual username) >> e.g. "first Linden" look bad as if there is a typo in there and such proper >> nouns are normally capitalized. >> >> I have always found it annoying to see lowercase first names. It is probably >> mostly a result of omissions, but also tends to happen more frequently with >> younger users. And as we "officially" will get 16 and 17 years old it is >> much more likely to happen. >> >> It happens a lot in shopping carts or any web user database if you don't >> automatically capitalize first and last names or addresses by code, which I >> now tend to do to prevent such inconsistence in postage labels, etc... >> It would make for a more consistent database too. >> >> On 8/17/10 2:41 PM, "Brian McGroarty" wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal >>> wrote: >>>> ... >>>> http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- >>>> names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life >>>> >>>> ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, >>>> does it? >>> >>> Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log >>> in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their >>> first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference >>> between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of >>> the blog post). >>> >>> Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real >>> change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever >>> have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace >>> usernames in any location within an old viewer. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:26:56 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:26:56 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <22F2BA96-2F09-44E4-B8E7-E32E4F336E12@gmail.com> The main area I can foresee there being a problem is fraud. Someone changes their name to "BlakOpal Customer Service" and then hangs out at one of our in-world store locations when we're not around scamming customers ("give me lindens, and I'll send you stuff cheap") or griefing. I'm also concerned about someone simply changing to my name or my partner's name for similar purposes. While any L$ or item transaction should show the user name as well as the display name, I can see unsuspecting people getting taken for a ride. But that's just conjecture, there may end up being some controls to limit that as a potential problem. As for forcing capitals, either on new residents or on existing accounts, no thanks. TriloByte Zanzibar On Aug 17, 2010, at 4:04 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > You will be Andromeda Quonset across all viewers and all scripts. All existing scripts and new scripts using the existing functions will continue to get Andromeda Quonset. You will *never* be Andromeda Resident (unless you make another account after the change takes effect). Andromeda Resident would be a completely separate account from Andromeda Quonset, just as Andromeda Omega would be today. 'Resident' is just the final last name, and is treated specially on new viewers to be hidden from view when displayed. > > Your account will NOT change to Andromeda Resident. It will NOT change to Andromeda.Quonset Resident. Resident will not be tacked onto the end of any existing avatar's name. > > All existing script library calls will forever more continue to return the 'full name'. Existing lists of avatars will continue to match their list of avatars. There will be some potential confusion for new residents who will identify as "John12345" or "John Smith" but not "John12345 Resident". > > There will be entirely new LSL function calls to handle display names. > > - Kelly > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Andromeda Quonset wrote: > Indeed. Wasn't there an issue in recent weeks/month with regard to the forum software and the case of the first letter of a name? > > > At 04:23 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >> The fact that people have lower case first names isn't always a typo, in many cases it is intended. Please do not force capitalization on names. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton wrote: >> As you are implementing this, you may to consider forcing capitalization via >> JavaScript or else on the first name (from the official actual username) >> e.g. "first Linden" look bad as if there is a typo in there and such proper >> nouns are normally capitalized. >> >> I have always found it annoying to see lowercase first names. It is probably >> mostly a result of omissions, but also tends to happen more frequently with >> younger users. And as we "officially" will get 16 and 17 years old it is >> much more likely to happen. >> >> It happens a lot in shopping carts or any web user database if you don't >> automatically capitalize first and last names or addresses by code, which I >> now tend to do to prevent such inconsistence in postage labels, etc... >> It would make for a more consistent database too. >> >> On 8/17/10 2:41 PM, "Brian McGroarty" wrote: >> >> > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal >> > < Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de> wrote: >> >> ... >> >> http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- >> >> names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life >> >> >> >> ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, >> >> does it? >> > >> > Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log >> > in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their >> > first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference >> > between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of >> > the blog post). >> > >> > Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real >> > change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever >> > have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace >> > usernames in any location within an old viewer. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/1166ea79/attachment.htm From kelly at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 16:30:22 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:30:22 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: * Scripts will work the same across all viewer versions. Scripts are server side. It does not matter which viewer you use. * You will never be Andromeda DisplayName. * You will never be Andromeda Resident * You will never be Andromeda.Quonset Resident * You will always be Andromeda Quonset to all existing scripts and all scripts that do not use new DisplayName functions. * If you never use a new viewer and do not set a display name you will always be Andromeda Quonset to everyone else, no matter what viewer they use. New llGetDisplayName function will still return Andromeda Quonset. New llGetUserName function may return Andromeda.Quonset. * IF (and only IF) you use a new viewer AND set a display name (lets say to "Andromeda") then other people may see you as Andromeda. Any scripts that do llGetDisplayName will get Andromeda. If they do llKey2Name they will get Andromeda Quonset. If they do llGetUserName they will get Andromeda.Quanset. * For a new user that registers as Joe1234 and sets their display name to Joe: llKey2Name will return Joe1234 Resident llGetUserName will return Joe1234 llGetDisplayName will return Joe There is a big caveat here: It is possible the LSL functions available that I see are not the final versions or what will be released. But they should be very close. - Kelly On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Andromeda Quonset < andromedaquonset at gmail.com> wrote: > Sighs. I see you misunderstood. Perhaps I have, too, in usage of > the word "Resident". > > In my post, where I referenced "Andromeda Resident", change that to > "Andromeda DisplayName" > > In a script that has been compiled to use a new function, presumably > compiled under a 2.X viewer, when an AV that is logged-in under a 1.X > viewer, and activates the script compiled under 2.X, will need to > have results returned to him based on a 1.X compilation, and not a > 2.X compilation in order to not cause a runtime error. > > I doubt I will be doing any scripting anytime soon in a Client 2 > environment, given the major issues I have with viewer, like the > entire world being a 4 x 4 inch area to work from in the middle of my > 22" widescreen with great big blacked-out edges to fill-in around > that 4 x 4 inch area. And there is the issue of the script editor > being seriously broken. Can't edit scripts without a script > editor. And there is the issue of doing an uninstall of the 2.X > client, and having it delete 5 years of chat dialog as it tidies up > after itself. > > Best thing as I see it is to not implement it. Maybe in 2012 we can > look revisit it. > > At 04:54 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: > >This is correct. Andromeda Quonset will be Andromeda Quonset forever. > >At some point, new residents won't be able to choose a last name - > >only these will be "Resident" > > > >No existing script function will return different results than it does > >today. New script functions are added for fetching/referencing Display > >Names. > > > >On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Erik Anderson > > wrote: > > > My interpretation of what was said is that the script using a 2.X > viewer > > > would NOT say "Andromeda Resident", SL is just stating that users in > the > > > future will not be asked for a last name when they sign up, all new > users > > > after that point would have a last name of "Resident", which the > > 2.X viewers > > > would likely hide. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Andromeda Quonset > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> It appears to me that if I create a script using viewer 1.X, it will > > >> show as being created by Andromeda Quonset. It also appears to me > > >> that if I create the same script using a 2.X viewer, that it will say > > >> it was created by Andromeda Resident. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > > privileges > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > >Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/a9b4b539/attachment-0001.htm From dillydobbs at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:39:18 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:39:18 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: *'like the entire world being a 4 x 4 inch area to work from in the middle of my 22" widescreen with great big blacked-out edges to fill-in around that 4 x 4 inch area.'* * * The issue above is most likely a display driver issue with your current configuration. I wouldn't think that this is an issue with the 2.X platform. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Andromeda Quonset < andromedaquonset at gmail.com> wrote: > Sighs. I see you misunderstood. Perhaps I have, too, in usage of > the word "Resident". > > In my post, where I referenced "Andromeda Resident", change that to > "Andromeda DisplayName" > > In a script that has been compiled to use a new function, presumably > compiled under a 2.X viewer, when an AV that is logged-in under a 1.X > viewer, and activates the script compiled under 2.X, will need to > have results returned to him based on a 1.X compilation, and not a > 2.X compilation in order to not cause a runtime error. > > I doubt I will be doing any scripting anytime soon in a Client 2 > environment, given the major issues I have with viewer, like the > entire world being a 4 x 4 inch area to work from in the middle of my > 22" widescreen with great big blacked-out edges to fill-in around > that 4 x 4 inch area. And there is the issue of the script editor > being seriously broken. Can't edit scripts without a script > editor. And there is the issue of doing an uninstall of the 2.X > client, and having it delete 5 years of chat dialog as it tidies up > after itself. > > Best thing as I see it is to not implement it. Maybe in 2012 we can > look revisit it. > > At 04:54 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: > >This is correct. Andromeda Quonset will be Andromeda Quonset forever. > >At some point, new residents won't be able to choose a last name - > >only these will be "Resident" > > > >No existing script function will return different results than it does > >today. New script functions are added for fetching/referencing Display > >Names. > > > >On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Erik Anderson > > wrote: > > > My interpretation of what was said is that the script using a 2.X > viewer > > > would NOT say "Andromeda Resident", SL is just stating that users in > the > > > future will not be asked for a last name when they sign up, all new > users > > > after that point would have a last name of "Resident", which the > > 2.X viewers > > > would likely hide. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Andromeda Quonset > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> It appears to me that if I create a script using viewer 1.X, it will > > >> show as being created by Andromeda Quonset. It also appears to me > > >> that if I create the same script using a 2.X viewer, that it will say > > >> it was created by Andromeda Resident. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > > privileges > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > >Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/db03fec6/attachment.htm From aimee at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 16:42:15 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:42:15 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <09EC3492-684C-4E4B-9982-57AB5C9A866B@lindenlab.com> No, that's not the case, display names are not returned to the existing LSL functions. Your existing account will always be seen as Andromeda Quonset to existing scripts no matter what you change your display name to. New LSL calls used to return display names to new scripts equally will not be a problem for older viewers either, what viewer you are running makes no difference to a script which is running on the server. Aimee. On 18 Aug 2010, at 00:13, Andromeda Quonset wrote: > Sighs. I see you misunderstood. Perhaps I have, too, in usage of > the word "Resident". > > In my post, where I referenced "Andromeda Resident", change that to > "Andromeda DisplayName" > > In a script that has been compiled to use a new function, presumably > compiled under a 2.X viewer, when an AV that is logged-in under a 1.X > viewer, and activates the script compiled under 2.X, will need to > have results returned to him based on a 1.X compilation, and not a > 2.X compilation in order to not cause a runtime error. From kadah.coba at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:42:39 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:42:39 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4C6B1E6F.2000506@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/17/2010 4:30 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > * IF (and only IF) you use a new viewer AND set a display name (lets say > to "Andromeda") then other people may see you as Andromeda. Any scripts > that do llGetDisplayName will get Andromeda. If they do llKey2Name they > will get Andromeda Quonset. If they do llGetUserName they will get > Andromeda.Quanset. The FAQ (https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Display_Names#Will_Display_Names_affect_scripts_I_have_created_or_bought.3F) seems to say different. It should be corrected/clarified. I'm confused, will out usernames keep our existing case, be all over case, or Have First Letters Capped? Each thing I read seems to state something different. ie. myfirstnameisalllowerBUTFORTHIS Lastname This: myfirstnameisalllowerBUTFORTHIS.Lastname? Or: myfirstnameisalllowerbutforthis.lastname? Or this: Myfirstnameisalllowerbutforthis.Lastname? o.O -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMax5vAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2zk0IAIwAMeUd92yEnusKxE01BQre mI2rkwyi2iZ1wqNygySn/R20fZSzranrBE2lnmWmFlZ9io6dYBvG5cf89uVWRoHn 3RryTWrv4ei3kZsBU1hDD+roi2PKNHJvxe7JedgiwkVTvM+aqHtNUuKsLHdsQg9W uPWQkmTEjU5/nvTa0mAL6YJysQ3Zfo0TxW6HF5p9Ic8UpI11P9MRlejN8Vt/AlB4 GgjTSzuF8bsaKQ41dq3JvIwyz5J1rya9CKK9kuBOQSMN5GOaEwOSyn/opDI3SIPo W/odd1XtiM8Vk0aqwAHDB0G6wEssufdzA8dlfFgD3CLWypxIeob0bHgQdhOL/QA= =vHXx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chess at us.ibm.com Tue Aug 17 16:43:22 2010 From: chess at us.ibm.com (David M Chess) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:43:22 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <09EC3492-684C-4E4B-9982-57AB5C9A866B@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Darn you Lindens, always clouding the issue with facts!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/7f34168f/attachment.htm From schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de Tue Aug 17 16:47:36 2010 From: schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de (Michael Schlenker) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 01:47:36 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> Am 18.08.2010 um 01:16 schrieb Bryon Ruxton: > Sorry if lacked clarification, > I was referring to the "current" residents names (as capitalized), NOT the > new display name which will become the person's username as I understand it. > > Because of the added flexibility with Display Names, I see it a good > opportunity to enforce the official First and Last name both capitalized > when shown and possibly clean up the legacy database of "First & Last" > names. This will break content if it hits the scripting layer. E.g. i have some scripts that derive things from the current username (including upper/lowercase distinction), and if you simply capitalized names it would break. Same with the aformentioned scripted access control lists. > > i.e. Someone named currently named "iama Linden" would be changed > automatically to Iama Linden as his display name which he can change to > lower case via his display name box he chooses so, like dahlia here does. > > Even if that was to apply to future usernames "when first chosen". > You could very well enforce a first capital and still allow for lowercase > display names after that, or even have a checkbox to prevent the automatic > JavaScript capitalization at registration. But it would fair to say that > lack of fist name capitalization due to users omission is much more common > than a deliberate intent coming from the user. So I view "initial > capitalization" as a default setting for that reason. > > And 2. you should also prevent anyone to use a display name baring the name > of an existing username in my opinion. NO. That would limit the usefulness for some kind of RP for sure. Might be okay if it was not allowed for IM or if IM always showed the old style name too. And maybe you noticed that lowercase/uppercase transformation is not a lossless operation (okay, might be due to the restrictions on SL firstnames, but in general its a lossy operation). Michael From merov at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 17:00:37 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:00:37 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm, JIRA and versions Message-ID: Hi, I'm looking at my backlog of SNOW bugs and I'm really missing right now a "Snowstorm x.x" version in the "Fixed revision(s)" field. Especially after this afternoon meeting where everyone agreed to work off Snowstorm only and let SG2.x dies. For instance, there a JIRA issue ( http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-646) that we discussed with WolfPup on IRC that would be great to add to the Snowstorm backlog. Anyway, it's easy enough to add but we need to agree on what to add and a couple of other things: * SNOW product: I think I read somewhere that we will be using VWR and not SNOW for Snowstorm bugs. Correct? (I'm fine with it... just asking for clarification...). If correct, I'll start moving JIRAs from SNOW to VWR when I see fit. * Affect versions: either way, how do we identify versions now? For instance, issues in the current lindenlab/viewer-development repo should be marked as what? I suppose "Viewer 2.1.1"... * Fixed versions: this is trickier, as we're moving with a bi monthly release schedule, we're going to increment that number quite fast. Again, fine with me but we need to create "Viewer 2.1.2" and a couple of others as well as a "Viewer 2.x" to park issues that are not on the backlog at all. Apologies if this is described already somewhere and I missed it. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/964bb561/attachment-0001.htm From andromedaquonset at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:46:37 2010 From: andromedaquonset at gmail.com (Andromeda Quonset) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:46:37 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4c6b2d65.2948960a.2a76.1c47@mx.google.com> I shall attempt to clarify my clarification. I realize in point of fact that you are not saying that my current, login name, of Andromeda Quonset was going to change to something else. What I was attempting to do was post what amounts to pseudocode. My mistake. What I said was if I set my DISPLAY NAME to "Andromeda DisplayName". But, essentially, you are saying that if I set my display name to "Andromeda DisplayName", a script call to something like llDetectedName() is going to return "Andromeda Quonset" every time. If I want something to return "Andromeda DisplayName", then it is going to have to be by using some new function we haven't seen such as llDetectedDisplayName(). You said that "* Scripts will work the same across all viewer versions. Scripts are server side. It does not matter which viewer you use." I'm sure you are more aware of how the internals work than I do, but if scripts are server-side, and I am logged-in and interacting with a script that uses llDetectedDisplayName() (or llGetDisplayName), then it seems to me that what is returned to me would be whatever the server-side thinks my display name is, regardless of my being logged-in with viewer 1 or viewer 2, and regardless of which viewer the script writer was logged in with when compiled. At 05:30 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >* Scripts will work the same across all viewer >versions. Scripts are server side. It does not matter which viewer you use. > >* You will never be Andromeda DisplayName. I was trying to use this as an example display name. >* You will never be Andromeda Resident I was also trying to use this as an example display name. >* You will never be Andromeda.Quonset Resident Well, that's good, because that looks ugly. >* You will always be Andromeda Quonset to all >existing scripts and all scripts that do not use new DisplayName functions. What I am concerned about is how scripts that use the new functions are going to work. >* If you never use a new viewer and do not set a >display name you will always be Andromeda >Quonset to everyone else, no matter what viewer >they use. New llGetDisplayName function will >still return Andromeda Quonset. New >llGetUserName function may return? Andromeda.Quonset. You are certain of this? It was my understanding from the faq that if I don't set a display name, that the default will be "andromeda.quonset" (Existing first name in all lower-case followed by a dot followed by existing last name all in lower-case) My question about the functionality of scripts based on the viewer version is based on the history of some new functions that became available quite some time ago, and which functioned differently at runtime depending on which viewer one was logged in with, such as llDetectedTouchFace, which did require some viewer support to function correctly. >* IF (and only IF) you use a new viewer AND set >a display name (lets say to "Andromeda") then >other people may see you as Andromeda. Any >scripts that do llGetDisplayName will get >Andromeda. If they do llKey2Name they will get >Andromeda Quonset. If they do llGetUserName they will get Andromeda.Quanset. > >* For a new user that registers as Joe1234 and sets their display name to Joe: >llKey2Name will return Joe1234 Resident >llGetUserName will return Joe1234 >llGetDisplayName will return Joe > >There is a big caveat here: It is possible the >LSL functions available that I see are not the >final versions or what will be released. But they should be very close. > >? - Kelly From kadah.coba at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 18:23:47 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:23:47 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/17/2010 5:14 AM, Aidan Thornton wrote: > For example, this shows up in the replacement of pie menus with > standard right-click menus. The big advantage of pie menus is that > they're fast to use - all the entries are large and easy to hit with > the mouse. The new right-click menu, on the other hand, has really > tiny entries that make you hunt with the mouse. Unlike in Second Life, > in most applications the right-click menu is not intended as the main > way to interact with the application - anything commonly-used can be > accessed in another faster way. +1 I cannot count the number of times I've accidentally clicked the wrong option on the right-click menu cause my cursor slipped off the tiny 16px tall area. Pie menus are really good for quick, repeatable actions. The only problem I had with pies was a small one, the layout was different if I clicked on my avatar or one of my attachment, make it kinda hard to take off cloths quickly when attachments were in the way :P -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMazYjAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2+cgIANk9Ft+SE5y1tQVOT+5+PK45 CM+SwBbgq5D7JCxFueVnMFakXa7nyDcIWLSPObR6V/lDrutil3TcVoJsp2UBCCkS X+eT/h5DuSKk3ssVY9b4E8JIymfCZGHrrqGGSLeMzrzAAIq4S6G6IjczeLaeEXRG FuukILIBxf4utvLCmuamKO0f4j/jUWERmhBKQdfim/Yczaw/tBZj9aRE99fuoeME w4Anlu24HbzhGmRgM0UUJmhBmvUfVu6phz6egZGbUY6HouAMQP2N63cn75NGsRnD K4dgV+wx2zxb3TqqznQIfEaq1+DQAdesldsEJHZCfSMHVFefZriry8Y2kzj4HPw= =1hv/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bryon at slearth.com Tue Aug 17 18:35:30 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:35:30 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> Message-ID: On 8/17/10 4:47 PM, "Michael Schlenker" wrote: > Am 18.08.2010 um 01:16 schrieb Bryon Ruxton: > >> Sorry if lacked clarification, >> I was referring to the "current" residents names (as capitalized), NOT the >> new display name which will become the person's username as I understand it. >> >> Because of the added flexibility with Display Names, I see it a good >> opportunity to enforce the official First and Last name both capitalized >> when shown and possibly clean up the legacy database of "First & Last" >> names. > > This will break content if it hits the scripting layer. E.g. i have some > scripts > that derive things from the current username (including upper/lowercase > distinction), > and if you simply capitalized names it would break. Same with the > aformentioned scripted access control lists. First and Last being unique I'd advise you lowercase them anyway before processing as a general practice. It allows for partial names, typos, better search etc... >> >> i.e. Someone named currently named "iama Linden" would be changed >> automatically to Iama Linden as his display name which he can change to >> lower case via his display name box he chooses so, like dahlia here does. >> >> Even if that was to apply to future usernames "when first chosen". >> You could very well enforce a first capital and still allow for lowercase >> display names after that, or even have a checkbox to prevent the automatic >> JavaScript capitalization at registration. But it would fair to say that >> lack of fist name capitalization due to users omission is much more common >> than a deliberate intent coming from the user. So I view "initial >> capitalization" as a default setting for that reason. >> >> And 2. you should also prevent anyone to use a display name baring the name >> of an existing username in my opinion. > > NO. That would limit the usefulness for some kind of RP for sure. Might be > okay if it was > not allowed for IM or if IM always showed the old style name too. It surely needs to be clearly identified if there are no restrictions at all. E.g. I don't mind if you use: "Philip Linden's Baby", "Philip Linden 1", "Philip Linden?" or "?Philip Linden?" etc.. but not "Philip Linden". A 100% match of the name (case insensitive) and even perhaps groups name should be prevented for the best. As I interpret it you cannot use "Georges Clooney" as display name unless perhaps you real name is indeed Georges Clooney, that would be in breach of the rules. So is "Coca Cola" ("Cola Cola Fan" being acceptable) Rules being: When selecting a name, do not choose one that: * violates a celebrity?s right in their name, a trademarked brand name, or any copyright or intellectual property right. * deceives others regarding your identity or affiliation; or * is vulgar, offensive, hateful or harassing. I already see a lot of abuse reports claiming breach of the Display Name rules should there be no preemptive enforcement. I think the one I am suggesting is a minimum prevention and fits along those principles. At LL's discretion to assess its merits against the projected caveats and name confusions issues they'll have to deal with. > And maybe you noticed that lowercase/uppercase transformation is not a > lossless operation > (okay, might be due to the restrictions on SL firstnames, but in general its a > lossy operation). > Michael > From rusyasoft at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 18:39:36 2010 From: rusyasoft at gmail.com (Rustam Rakhimov) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:39:36 +0900 Subject: [opensource-dev] vehicles got some problem ? Message-ID: Hi VW developers [developers are future] I want to ask you question about vehicles As I know vehicles got some problem in OpenSim isn't it ? so is there any news about Vehicles in Opensim. I want it to run some car script on OpenSim please help anyone thanks in advance !!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/de1ecbcf/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 18:45:14 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:45:14 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm, JIRA and versions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C6B3B2A.2080905@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-17 20:00, Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > Hi, > > I'm looking at my backlog of SNOW bugs and I'm really missing right > now a "Snowstorm x.x" version in the "Fixed revision(s)" field. > Especially after this afternoon meeting where everyone agreed to work > off Snowstorm only and let SG2.x dies. For instance, there a JIRA > issue (http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-646) that we discussed > with WolfPup on IRC that would be great to add to the Snowstorm backlog. > > Anyway, it's easy enough to add but we need to agree on what to add > and a couple of other things: > * SNOW product: I think I read somewhere that we will be using VWR and > not SNOW for Snowstorm bugs. Correct? (I'm fine with it... just asking > for clarification...). If correct, I'll start moving JIRAs from SNOW > to VWR when I see fit. That's correct. > * Affect versions: either way, how do we identify versions now? For > instance, issues in the current lindenlab/viewer-development repo > should be marked as what? I suppose "Viewer 2.1.1"... good question... Esbee is owns version numbering, I suspect we should change to either 2.1.2 or 2.2.0 but let's let her weigh in. > * Fixed versions: this is trickier, as we're moving with a bi monthly > release schedule, we're going to increment that number quite fast. > Again, fine with me but we need to create "Viewer 2.1.2" and a couple > of others as well as a "Viewer 2.x" to park issues that are not on the > backlog at all. Well, if I'm not mistaken, viewers built from the viewer-development branch will also have the _DEVELOPMENT at the end of the version string - do we really need to increment any of the first three until they go to Beta and Release? From malachi at tamzap.com Tue Aug 17 18:45:54 2010 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:45:54 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I understand this is all coming about to make it easier for people. Fine and dandy there. But isn't this just limiting the overall number of users that will be allowed to create accounts? I mean there are only so many combinations of characters that could be created with the last name Resident. I think if you are worried about residents walking away from the registration page because of a 'limited' list of last names, perhaps the official second life page could be a bit more like the regapi's that are out there. like it used to be in the good old days. when one could just select their last name from the entire list of last names, and not from a randomized pick of 12. just my 2 cents sorry to bother anyone. malachi On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:04:19 -0400, Kelly Linden wrote: > You will be Andromeda Quonset across all viewers and all scripts. All > existing scripts and new scripts using the existing functions will > continue > to get Andromeda Quonset. You will *never* be Andromeda Resident (unless > you > make another account after the change takes effect). Andromeda Resident > would be a completely separate account from Andromeda Quonset, just as > Andromeda Omega would be today. 'Resident' is just the final last name, > and > is treated specially on new viewers to be hidden from view when > displayed. > > Your account will NOT change to Andromeda Resident. It will NOT change to > Andromeda.Quonset Resident. Resident will not be tacked onto the end of > any > existing avatar's name. > > All existing script library calls will forever more continue to return > the > 'full name'. Existing lists of avatars will continue to match their list > of > avatars. There will be some potential confusion for new residents who > will > identify as "John12345" or "John Smith" but not "John12345 Resident". > > There will be entirely new LSL function calls to handle display names. > > - Kelly > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Andromeda Quonset < > andromedaquonset at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Indeed. Wasn't there an issue in recent weeks/month with regard to the >> forum software and the case of the first letter of a name? >> >> >> At 04:23 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >> >> The fact that people have lower case first names isn't always a typo, in >> many cases it is intended. Please do not force capitalization on names. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton wrote: >> As you are implementing this, you may to consider forcing >> capitalization >> via >> JavaScript or else on the first name (from the official actual username) >> e.g. "first Linden" look bad as if there is a typo in there and such >> proper >> nouns are normally capitalized. >> >> I have always found it annoying to see lowercase first names. It is >> probably >> mostly a result of omissions, but also tends to happen more frequently >> with >> younger users. And as we "officially" will get 16 and 17 years old it is >> much more likely to happen. >> >> It happens a lot in shopping carts or any web user database if you don't >> automatically capitalize first and last names or addresses by code, >> which I >> now tend to do to prevent such inconsistence in postage labels, etc... >> It would make for a more consistent database too. >> >> On 8/17/10 2:41 PM, "Brian McGroarty" wrote: >> >> > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal >> > < Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de> wrote: >> >> ... >> >> >> http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- >> >> names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life >> >> >> >> ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, >> >> does it? >> > >> > Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log >> > in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their >> > first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference >> > between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of >> > the blog post). >> > >> > Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real >> > change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever >> > have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace >> > usernames in any location within an old viewer. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From latifer at streamgrid.net Tue Aug 17 19:21:42 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 04:21:42 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: The big source of confusion regarding scripts is the following line from the FAQ: "Your username will automatically be formed from your existing avatar name in the form of your current Second Life firstname.lastname." Since existing functions will return username, does that mean they will return "latif.khalifa". Which is my username, "Latif Khalifa" or "latif.khalifa"? From yoz at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 19:24:48 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:24:48 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: On 17 August 2010 02:44, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:27:34 -0700, Yoz Grahame wrote: > > > Linden Lab has the final say in what goes into the Linden Lab viewer. A > > third-party viewer team has the final say in what goes into their viewer. > > Indeed, but if LL is so close-minded as to reject any change to the UI > that would allow v1 lovers to adopt v2, then there is no chance that > any v1 developer will migrate to the v2 code base... > That's not what I meant, and if I gave that impression, I apologise. Requests for well-specified elements of the v1.x UI, backed up by reasoned arguments, are something we can put in the backlog for discussion. Requests for either reverting the entire v2.x UI to that of v1.x, or keeping both running in parallel, will not make it into the backlog; firstly because neither is feasible for us, and secondly because such a request in no way helps us to focus on what the specific UI problems are. There have been several hundred UI changes between 1.23 and 2.1.1, ranging from the creation of the sidebar to individual checkbox relocation. Many of those came from resident feedback, or from many hours of user experience testing. If you want any of them reversed or changed, it's not unreasonable that we require specifics and reasoning before we commit to the work. Once you supply that, we can weigh up the pros and cons, maybe open the question up to more feedback, and then make a decision. We may, after consideration, ultimately decide against your suggestion. It's our right as the project owners. Some seem to interpret disagreement as ignoring feedback. This is not the case, and our push for a more open development process relies on participants being open to occasionally losing arguments. We have far better things to do than spend weeks on a project that's all about opening ourselves to more feedback purely so we can ignore it. (Some might see it as a demented kind of fun for the first few hours until the beer runs out, but we're not into those kinds of parties.) Certainly, we've already had a large amount of feedback about what users like and dislike. Much of the negative feedback, when reduced to actionable specifics, focuses on a small number of high-profile changes; for example, the sidebar. When examined further, many of the problems are around certain aspects of those changes rather than the changes themselves; for example, the sidebar's modality and non-detachability rather than its entire existence. When focused in this way, the work required to give our mainline viewer far wider approval becomes much more manageable than reverting the entire UI. Some of it may involve bringing back aspects of v1, or coming up with something new, or making certain elements more configurable, or simply choosing better defaults. There's no single answer, but there is a single goal: we want to make something that's better for everyone than anything we've made before. On a related note, Esbee's put up the backlog: https://spreadsheets2.google.com/ccc?key=tCVGlO5ndR_oyrfKEC9CxKA&hl=en#gid=5 If you think we've been ignoring negative feedback, please take a look. And gosh, what's that at the very top? -- Yoz Linden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/4ca4b6ec/attachment.htm From kelly at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 19:55:53 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:55:53 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: (lets move this to the scripters list?) I need to refresh myself on this. There should be 3 names: user name: latif.khalifa full name: Latif Khalifa display name: The Awesome Latif Most (all?) the existing LSL functions will return the 'full name'. I also find it confusing to use Kelly DifferentLastName as an example display name. This isn't about picking a new last name. It is about being just 'Kelly' or 'Teh Kellz'. Sorry, it was just part of what was confusing me about the previous examples. A new user is: user name: john1234 full name: john1234 Resident display name: john The full name is pretty much only relevant for LSL for legacy purposes. We spent quite a bit of time trying to find the right way to handle LSL to cause the least amount of breakage. Scripts that parse for a space to get a first name should still work, scripts that require a unique name should still work, scripts that require names to match those stored in a notecard or otherwise stored should still work. These seemed the most common cases. Scripts that ask the user to enter their name and then check that against a sensor event may "break" because what people think of when you ask them for their name will change, especially for new users. These scripts will need to be updated. This is probably a good topic for my OH next week, at least the LSL specific portion. - Kelly On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Latif Khalifa wrote: > The big source of confusion regarding scripts is the following line > from the FAQ: > > "Your username will automatically be formed from your existing avatar > name in the form of your current Second Life firstname.lastname." > > Since existing functions will return username, does that mean they > will return "latif.khalifa". Which is my username, "Latif Khalifa" or > "latif.khalifa"? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/68526874/attachment.htm From kelly at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 19:57:28 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:57:28 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I wanted to amend this that I also think 'Full Name' is what is shown in old viewers as well as for legacy LSL. But I need to triple verify that. - Kelly On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > (lets move this to the scripters list?) > > I need to refresh myself on this. There should be 3 names: > user name: latif.khalifa > full name: Latif Khalifa > display name: The Awesome Latif > > Most (all?) the existing LSL functions will return the 'full name'. I also > find it confusing to use Kelly DifferentLastName as an example display name. > This isn't about picking a new last name. It is about being just 'Kelly' or > 'Teh Kellz'. Sorry, it was just part of what was confusing me about the > previous examples. > > A new user is: > user name: john1234 > full name: john1234 Resident > display name: john > > The full name is pretty much only relevant for LSL for legacy purposes. We > spent quite a bit of time trying to find the right way to handle LSL to > cause the least amount of breakage. Scripts that parse for a space to get a > first name should still work, scripts that require a unique name should > still work, scripts that require names to match those stored in a notecard > or otherwise stored should still work. These seemed the most common cases. > Scripts that ask the user to enter their name and then check that against a > sensor event may "break" because what people think of when you ask them for > their name will change, especially for new users. These scripts will need to > be updated. > > This is probably a good topic for my OH next week, at least the LSL > specific portion. > > - Kelly > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Latif Khalifa wrote: > >> The big source of confusion regarding scripts is the following line >> from the FAQ: >> >> "Your username will automatically be formed from your existing avatar >> name in the form of your current Second Life firstname.lastname." >> >> Since existing functions will return username, does that mean they >> will return "latif.khalifa". Which is my username, "Latif Khalifa" or >> "latif.khalifa"? >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/cfee03b1/attachment.htm From javajoint at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 20:20:49 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:20:49 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: What if I dont want someone to use my username as their display name? This seems like a reasonable request. I shouldn't have to be a celebrity, etc. I just want to avoid confusion. Not to make a pun, but it's my namespace. I would propose that we get an account setting: AllowMyNameForDisplay Have it set to "no" by default. If I feel like turning it on so that others can use my name, then fine, that would be me "opting in". cheers, Daniel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/1a8a29ec/attachment.htm From tateru at taterunino.net Tue Aug 17 20:34:22 2010 From: tateru at taterunino.net (Tateru Nino) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:34:22 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4C6B54BE.4080908@taterunino.net> What I'm wondering is if it is too late to drop the dot and the lower-casing from the user name as used or displayed. On 18/08/2010 12:55 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > (lets move this to the scripters list?) > > I need to refresh myself on this. There should be 3 names: > user name: latif.khalifa > full name: Latif Khalifa > display name: The Awesome Latif > > Most (all?) the existing LSL functions will return the 'full name'. I > also find it confusing to use Kelly DifferentLastName as an example > display name. This isn't about picking a new last name. It is about > being just 'Kelly' or 'Teh Kellz'. Sorry, it was just part of what was > confusing me about the previous examples. > > A new user is: > user name: john1234 > full name: john1234 Resident > display name: john > > The full name is pretty much only relevant for LSL for legacy > purposes. We spent quite a bit of time trying to find the right way to > handle LSL to cause the least amount of breakage. Scripts that parse > for a space to get a first name should still work, scripts that > require a unique name should still work, scripts that require names to > match those stored in a notecard or otherwise stored should still > work. These seemed the most common cases. Scripts that ask the user to > enter their name and then check that against a sensor event may > "break" because what people think of when you ask them for their name > will change, especially for new users. These scripts will need to be > updated. > > This is probably a good topic for my OH next week, at least the LSL > specific portion. > > - Kelly > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Latif Khalifa > wrote: > > The big source of confusion regarding scripts is the following line > from the FAQ: > > "Your username will automatically be formed from your existing avatar > name in the form of your current Second Life firstname.lastname." > > Since existing functions will return username, does that mean they > will return "latif.khalifa". Which is my username, "Latif Khalifa" or > "latif.khalifa"? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/5c322752/attachment-0001.htm From yoz at lindenlab.com Tue Aug 17 20:38:11 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:38:11 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Folks, neither the Scripters list nor opensource-dev are suitable places for discussing aspects of Display Names that don't directly relate to the lists' purposes. Not only is it off-topic, but there are far better venues for providing feedback to the project owners, such as in the blog post comments. Trust me, taking this discussion elsewhere will have a better result for all concerned. On 17 August 2010 20:20, Daniel Smith wrote: > [ high-level stuff about Display Names ] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100817/69757ca7/attachment.htm From andromedaquonset at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 20:45:32 2010 From: andromedaquonset at gmail.com (Andromeda Quonset) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:45:32 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4c6b574f.16e9640a.3d87.6e1f@mx.google.com> Sounds reasonable to me. I would like to extend this a little bit: Suppose I can't login to the grid for some reason using my main AV. And I need to login to take care of some things. So, I login with an alt. I would like a checkbox that says AllowOnlyMyAlts ToUseMyNameForDisplay. Maybe have some blank spaces where I can list my alts, and have the permissions granted ahead of time, because when I can't log in with my main AV, I'm certain I won't be able to grant the permission then. At 09:20 PM 8/17/2010, Daniel Smith wrote: >What if I dont want someone to use my username as their display name? > >This seems like a reasonable request. I shouldn't have to be a >celebrity, etc. >I just want to avoid confusion. Not to make a pun, but it's my namespace. > >I would propose that we get an account setting: AllowMyNameForDisplay >Have it set to "no" by default. If I feel like turning it on so that others >can use my name, then fine, that would be me "opting in". > >cheers, > >Daniel From mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com Tue Aug 17 20:59:08 2010 From: mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com (mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:59:08 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8E9ABB53A95E4055B19D23A7CE37A53B@TWEEDY64> Gosh, couldn't we have simple meshes instead of display names? C# scripting, shared libraries, there are 100 features I think I could list that are to me are more important than this. Slim client back so I can talk to people when I can't be logged into the full client. -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of malachi Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:46 PM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? I understand this is all coming about to make it easier for people. Fine and dandy there. But isn't this just limiting the overall number of users that will be allowed to create accounts? I mean there are only so many combinations of characters that could be created with the last name Resident. I think if you are worried about residents walking away from the registration page because of a 'limited' list of last names, perhaps the official second life page could be a bit more like the regapi's that are out there. like it used to be in the good old days. when one could just select their last name from the entire list of last names, and not from a randomized pick of 12. just my 2 cents sorry to bother anyone. malachi On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:04:19 -0400, Kelly Linden wrote: > You will be Andromeda Quonset across all viewers and all scripts. All > existing scripts and new scripts using the existing functions will > continue > to get Andromeda Quonset. You will *never* be Andromeda Resident (unless > you > make another account after the change takes effect). Andromeda Resident > would be a completely separate account from Andromeda Quonset, just as > Andromeda Omega would be today. 'Resident' is just the final last name, > and > is treated specially on new viewers to be hidden from view when > displayed. > > Your account will NOT change to Andromeda Resident. It will NOT change to > Andromeda.Quonset Resident. Resident will not be tacked onto the end of > any > existing avatar's name. > > All existing script library calls will forever more continue to return > the > 'full name'. Existing lists of avatars will continue to match their list > of > avatars. There will be some potential confusion for new residents who > will > identify as "John12345" or "John Smith" but not "John12345 Resident". > > There will be entirely new LSL function calls to handle display names. > > - Kelly > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Andromeda Quonset < > andromedaquonset at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Indeed. Wasn't there an issue in recent weeks/month with regard to the >> forum software and the case of the first letter of a name? >> >> >> At 04:23 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote: >> >> The fact that people have lower case first names isn't always a typo, in >> many cases it is intended. Please do not force capitalization on names. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton wrote: >> As you are implementing this, you may to consider forcing >> capitalization >> via >> JavaScript or else on the first name (from the official actual username) >> e.g. "first Linden" look bad as if there is a typo in there and such >> proper >> nouns are normally capitalized. >> >> I have always found it annoying to see lowercase first names. It is >> probably >> mostly a result of omissions, but also tends to happen more frequently >> with >> younger users. And as we "officially" will get 16 and 17 years old it is >> much more likely to happen. >> >> It happens a lot in shopping carts or any web user database if you don't >> automatically capitalize first and last names or addresses by code, >> which I >> now tend to do to prevent such inconsistence in postage labels, etc... >> It would make for a more consistent database too. >> >> On 8/17/10 2:41 PM, "Brian McGroarty" wrote: >> >> > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Lance Corrimal >> > < Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de> wrote: >> >> ... >> >> >> http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2010/08/17/display- >> >> names-bringing-greater-self-expression-to-second-life >> >> >> >> ... I guess that means the end for logging in with 1.x based viewers, >> >> does it? >> > >> > Old viewers will continue to work. Old accounts would continue to log >> > in as they do today. New accounts log in with their username as their >> > first name and "Resident" as the last name. (For the difference >> > between username and Display Name, see the FAQ linked at the end of >> > the blog post). >> > >> > Under the hood, for all legacy viewers and scripts, the only real >> > change is that new accounts created after some point will only ever >> > have "Resident" as a last name. The new Display Names won't replace >> > usernames in any location within an old viewer. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Tue Aug 17 23:34:32 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:34:32 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] the snowstorm backlog Message-ID: <201008180834.33023.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> ...what's with that google spreadsheet, I thought there's the jira? From yoz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 00:27:34 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:27:34 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] the snowstorm backlog In-Reply-To: <201008180834.33023.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008180834.33023.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: On 17 August 2010 23:34, Lance Corrimal wrote: > ...what's with that google spreadsheet, I thought there's the jira? > Good point! But the JIRA interface isn't great at backlog organisation with Scrum. Now if only there was some kind of Scrum-focused add-on that we could use for managing scrums and the backlog in a nice JIRA-integrated and publicly-visible way... http://www.atlassian.com/software/greenhopper/ I guess we'd better do that, then. (I was actually in the middle of drafting the blog post about it when I saw this. I should probably stop reading mail and get back to it.) -- Yoz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/4bb5130b/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Wed Aug 18 01:20:03 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:20:03 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20100818102003.a48be1af.sldev@free.fr> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:55:53 -0700, Kelly Linden wrote: > (lets move this to the scripters list?) > > I need to refresh myself on this. There should be 3 names: > user name: latif.khalifa > full name: Latif Khalifa > display name: The Awesome Latif > > Most (all?) the existing LSL functions will return the 'full name'. I also > find it confusing to use Kelly DifferentLastName as an example display name. > This isn't about picking a new last name. It is about being just 'Kelly' or > 'Teh Kellz'. Sorry, it was just part of what was confusing me about the > previous examples. > > A new user is: > user name: john1234 > full name: john1234 Resident > display name: john Why restricting new user names to "Resident" ? It will only make the choice for the first name more dificult, since "John" will be taken by the first new resident registering it, and then others will have no other choice than to use numbers or weird characters to register and we will end up with IRC-like names like John12345 and John54321, which will make it only more difficult to distinguish all the Johns from each others in-world (for identification purpose, such as objects ownership, anti-griefing and stuff). Why not, instead, letting the new user choose their full name (first and second name) as they wish (provided it doesn't collide with an existing one, of course), just like what happens in almost all OpenSim grids ? Henri. From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Wed Aug 18 01:50:07 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:50:07 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <20100818102003.a48be1af.sldev@free.fr> References: <20100818102003.a48be1af.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <201008181050.07882.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Wednesday 18 August 2010 10:20:03 Henri Beauchamp wrote: > Why restricting new user names to "Resident" ? It's not a restriction. the whole thing, as far as i can see, boils down to this: there's the login, and the display name. the login is _one_ word, chosen at account creation, and will stay the same forever. For example, it could be something like andromeda02 or whatever. the display name can be anything, and can be changed once a week. So if you would create a new account for whatever reasons, you could choose feedledumthebard as your login, and set your display name to "Henri Beauchamp the 2nd." What will happen to old accounts is that their login will be constructed by using their avatar name, lowercase, and connecting the two pieces with a dot, and by default their Display name will be the original avatar name. So, in my case, my login will be lance.corrimal and my dosplay name will be Lance Corrimal. and in an old viewer with no display name support it will stay that way. Now what about the fictive new account that you created? the login name is feedledumthebard. the display name is "Henri Beauchamp the 2nd" and in an old viewer with no support for display names it'll show as: "feedledumthebard Resident". > > It will only make the choice for the first name more dificult, since > "John" will be taken by the first new resident registering it, and then > others will have no other choice than to use numbers or weird characters > to register and we will end up with IRC-like names like John12345 and > John54321, which will make it only more difficult to distinguish all the > Johns from each others in-world (for identification purpose, such as > objects ownership, anti-griefing and stuff). only for their LOGIN, which will not be the Display Name. Display names do NOT have to be unique. Think of display names as "group titles that don't need a group to be in", and it becomes more clear. The fact that display names don't have to be unique opens the biggest can of worms though. What keeps me from, lets say, creating a throwaway alt, setting its Display Name to "Stiletto Moody", and hanging out at that famous shoe shop telling people that the place will close down and that all rights to the designs have been sold to (whatever the place is that will sell copybotted versions). Other than the fear of having that throwaway alt getting permanently banned in maybe a year or two when the g-team gets around to doing it. What keeps me from setting the display name to the name of a well-known land baron, hanging out at their hub, telling prospective tenants that there's no free land but "so and so that we're cooperating with still has a few free homesteads"...? The fact that the login name can be seen in the profile does NOT mean that people will understand the difference, or pay attention to it. Keep in mind that there are LONG TIME RESIDENTS who still don't know how to read a notecard. That paints a pretty black prospect of the mental capacities of the generic noobie... IF those display names arenot shot down before rollout (hopefully they are) there needs a BIG section on discovery island covering them, and how to avoid being scammed. bye, LC From tateru at taterunino.net Wed Aug 18 02:07:44 2010 From: tateru at taterunino.net (Tateru Nino) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:07:44 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <201008181050.07882.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <20100818102003.a48be1af.sldev@free.fr> <201008181050.07882.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C6BA2E0.10703@taterunino.net> On 18/08/2010 6:50 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > On Wednesday 18 August 2010 10:20:03 Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > >> Why restricting new user names to "Resident" ? > It's not a restriction. > > the whole thing, as far as i can see, boils down to this: > > there's the login, and the display name. > > the login is _one_ word, chosen at account creation, and will stay the same > forever. For example, it could be something like andromeda02 or whatever. > the display name can be anything, and can be changed once a week. > So if you would create a new account for whatever reasons, you could choose > feedledumthebard as your login, and set your display name to "Henri Beauchamp > the 2nd." > > What will happen to old accounts is that their login will be constructed by > using their avatar name, lowercase, and connecting the two pieces with a dot, > and by default their Display name will be the original avatar name. That's where we connect with the viewer. Input and presentation. I can't say as I'm thrilled by the account name being shown as 'tateru.nino' in every place that the account name is displayed (or expected) by the viewer. I've got capital letters and a space in my original name, after all - and my expectation would be for the account-name to preserve that (or if it is transforming it because the schema can't handle an 0x20, to conceal that transformation from the viewer presentation layers insofar as is possible to do so). Heck, make my account/login '93ede1c5e1363385eb577efc312ae11d' and I'm still just as happy - so long as what is /displayed /and /typed /as my account name is still "Tateru Nino" Having my account name visibly changed as a part of the process (regardless of what is or is not done with display names) seems unnecessary and lazy. > So, in my case, my login will be lance.corrimal and my dosplay name will be > Lance Corrimal. > > and in an old viewer with no display name support it will stay that way. > > Now what about the fictive new account that you created? > the login name is feedledumthebard. > the display name is "Henri Beauchamp the 2nd" > and in an old viewer with no support for display names it'll show as: > "feedledumthebard Resident". > > >> It will only make the choice for the first name more dificult, since >> "John" will be taken by the first new resident registering it, and then >> others will have no other choice than to use numbers or weird characters >> to register and we will end up with IRC-like names like John12345 and >> John54321, which will make it only more difficult to distinguish all the >> Johns from each others in-world (for identification purpose, such as >> objects ownership, anti-griefing and stuff). > > only for their LOGIN, which will not be the Display Name. > > Display names do NOT have to be unique. > > Think of display names as "group titles that don't need a group to be in", and > it becomes more clear. > > The fact that display names don't have to be unique opens the biggest can of > worms though. > > What keeps me from, lets say, creating a throwaway alt, setting its Display > Name to "Stiletto Moody", and hanging out at that famous shoe shop telling > people that the place will close down and that all rights to the designs have > been sold to (whatever the place is that will sell copybotted versions). > Other than the fear of having that throwaway alt getting permanently banned in > maybe a year or two when the g-team gets around to doing it. > > What keeps me from setting the display name to the name of a well-known land > baron, hanging out at their hub, telling prospective tenants that there's no > free land but "so and so that we're cooperating with still has a few free > homesteads"...? > > The fact that the login name can be seen in the profile does NOT mean that > people will understand the difference, or pay attention to it. > > Keep in mind that there are LONG TIME RESIDENTS who still don't know how to > read a notecard. That paints a pretty black prospect of the mental capacities > of the generic noobie... > > > > IF those display names arenot shot down before rollout (hopefully they are) > there needs a BIG section on discovery island covering them, and how to avoid > being scammed. > > > bye, > LC > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/7398460c/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Wed Aug 18 03:38:04 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:38:04 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:24:48 -0700, Yoz Grahame wrote: > On 17 August 2010 02:44, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > > On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:27:34 -0700, Yoz Grahame wrote: > > > > > Linden Lab has the final say in what goes into the Linden Lab viewer. A > > > third-party viewer team has the final say in what goes into their viewer. > > > > Indeed, but if LL is so close-minded as to reject any change to the UI > > that would allow v1 lovers to adopt v2, then there is no chance that > > any v1 developer will migrate to the v2 code base... > > > > That's not what I meant, and if I gave that impression, I apologise. > > Requests for well-specified elements of the v1.x UI, backed up by reasoned > arguments, are something we can put in the backlog for discussion. Requests > for either reverting the entire v2.x UI to that of v1.x, or keeping both > running in parallel, will not make it into the backlog; firstly because > neither is feasible for us, and secondly because such a request in no way > helps us to focus on what the specific UI problems are. I tend to disagree strongly with the "non-feasability" of a dual-fold UI, especially when taken, element per element. As an example, I could take the pie menu: someone in this list (Aidan Thornton) gave damned good reasons for reverting the v2 UI context menus on avatars and objects to pie menus, which I would fully second. It is *perfectly* possible to let the user choose between both via an UI setting that when changed would take effect after a viewer restart (I implemented such settings for other UI elements in the Cool VL Viewer, so I know first hand what I'm speaking about here): this would make everyone happy and could be contributed to Snowtorm code base by open source developers. Now, think about your stance: if you keep refusing such changes on the pretext it's "not feasible", here is what will happen: - TPV developers will first stay with the v1.23/SG v1 viewer code base and will keep producing backport patches for the few new features of v2 that are necessary or useful to keep up using SL. To give you a little idea of how long this statu quo could last, I'll simply cite my own experience with the v1.19 code base: I could maintain it from november 2007 to this year, and only decided this year that I'll stop maintaining it (for the backports become more and more difficult and time consuming). QUESTION: Do you want to delay the contributions to Snowstorm by TPV developers by 2 years ? Sure, you might still be able to incorporate some of the new features developed in TPVs, but you will have to do it *yourself*, because no TPV developer will bother submiting patches for Snowstorm during this period ! - TPV developers will then finally (and reluctantly) migrate to the v2 code base and will concentrate their efforts on reverting all UI elements they know their users dislike (or simply can't accept !), which will hamper their ability to produce new useful features by consuming their time on things that could have been changed earlier (by spending the time they "lost" producing backports to implement the UI switches in Snowstorm instead). Also, they will change the UI in a way that doesn't preserve the v2 way of doing things, since I don't see anyone (but for Lindens...) bothering with something that 80% of the SL user base rejects. Instead of having the UI changes implemented as options in Snowstorm, you will then end up with radical and incompatible changes implemented in TPVs and as many forked v2 viewers that will keep attracting like magnets SL users, making Snowstorm look like the ugly duck. QUESTION: do you think it is at all producive ? For LL ? For us, OS developers ? The answer to the latter is "no, but we won't have a choice, it's LL's fault !". > There have been several hundred UI changes between 1.23 and 2.1.1, ranging > from the creation of the sidebar to individual checkbox relocation. Many of > those came from resident feedback, Oh ?... Where are the polls about the changes you made, behind the scene ? In fact this "resident feedback" is simply the result of a ridiculous minority of very vocal residents who took the time to give you *their* feedback. Don't you see the *REAL* feedback of your *CUTSOMERS BASE* as a *WHOLE* ?... just LOOK at the v2 usage stats on the grid, damned it, and stop the corporate lies, *pretty* please ! I can understand that LL is pissed off that the amount of money and time they spent in viewer 2 results in the end in 80% of their customers rejecting it, but I (and with me, 80% of the residents) *can't* understand your suicidal stance which consists on trying to force the new UI of viewer 2 down everyone's throat ! > or from many hours of user experience testing. Are you speaking about the closed beta testers who now complain that their feedback wasn't listened to and even less taken into account ? And how did you choose these few beta-testers ?... How would they represent the wide range of the SL user base anyway ? > If you want any of them reversed or changed, it's not unreasonable > that we require specifics and reasoning before we commit to the work. > Once you supply that, we can weigh up the pros and cons, maybe open > the question up to more feedback, and then make a decision. Such specifics were supplied COUNTLESS times via numerous channels, but LL keeps having the autistic behaviour it showed for now over 3 years... This is hopeless. :-( > We may, after consideration, ultimately decide against your suggestion. Yes, this is in fact what you are planing to do anyway. It's easier to sing "viewer 2 is marvellous" loud enough not to hear the complaints than to fix what was broken. I sincerely hope for you that you will not be part of the next 30% of the Lindens that will be fired in 2011 because of LL's decline... At least you seem ready to discuss about serious matters, so I'd prefer still having you around in 2011... > It's our right as the project owners. Some seem to interpret disagreement > as ignoring feedback. This is not the case, and our push for a more open > development process relies on participants being open to occasionally losing > arguments. We have far better things to do than spend weeks on a project > that's all about opening ourselves to more feedback purely so we can ignore > it. (Some might see it as a demented kind of fun for the first few hours > until the beer runs out, but we're not into those kinds of parties.) Frankly, I'd hope that you *will* finally turn those words into actual actions, because I (and many others with me) start feeling desesperate will LL's stubborness. In your turn, ask yourself why people such as myself are posting such desperate (and yes, vehement) calls for LL's attention on such primordial subjects as the viewer UI, the policies, the coming changes (teens on the grid, oh please, mercy ! Noooooooo !), etc... We spend significant part of our free time to produce code, to give feedback, to try and make SL better for *us all*, and we would LOVE to do it in harmony with LL. But instead, we have to quite literaly *fight* and *scream* to try and make ourselves heard, while the facts and statistics prove *we* are right and LL is wrong. SL has been on the down slope since the last quarter of 2007 (the "last logged in 60 days" figure on the login screen peaked at around 1 800 000 in 2007 and stayed below 1 500 000 ever since the end of 2007, under 1 400 000 right now, and as a merchant in SL, the end of 2007 was also the start of the correlated decline of my own incomes, and accelerated further by the adoption of the broken search engine, by the adult segregation policy, etc, to become what it is now: a quarter of the revenues I had in 2007 while I got 4 times more products for sale !), and this largely because of HUGE strategic mistakes, that MANY residents warned LL upon, just to be superbly ignored, their valid arguments wiped off disdainfully with the back of LL's hand with a "we, LL, know better because we are a multi-million dollar business". Know, I could sing in my turn "I told you the new groups architecture is broken and should be reverted back to what it was till you find a solution", "I told you the new search engine is broken and ruining many SL businesses", "I told you the adult segregation would make the user base and businesses go further down", because, you know... yes, I *did* tell you... But I don't want to tell you in a year or so, "I told you Snowstorm would be a failure" ! PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, do NOT commit yet another mistake when you are SO CLOSE to doing "THE RIGHT THING" ! YES, Snowstorm is a GREAT opportunity, but please, don't stop in the middle of the river and let yourself swept by the stream: you NEED to go just a couple LITTLE steps farther to reach the bank of the Open Source Paradise. These steps are simply: - DO NOT HOLD PREJUDICE ABOUT PROPOSED UI CHANGES, even if it means "going backwards": you, LL do know better than us about the grid architecture and protocols, but we know better than you when it comes to the UI, because unlike you, WE ARE your user base, WE ARE the ones ACTUALLY using the viewer !!! - DO NOT SEGREGATE SUBMISSIONS: since you made Snowstorm LGPL, there is now *no more need* for the FLOSS exception and for contribution agreements (since you can take a snapshot of the Open Source viewer at anytime and incorporate them to your own closed source viewer, and this without any LGPL contributor additional permission). This will bring you a whole wealth of really useful patches (and I'm not speaking about the UI, here, but about many new features that were developed for TPVs) without forcing the OS developers to choose between endangering their real life by giving up privacy threatening details in a CA or not being able to contribute to Snowstorm. > Certainly, we've already had a large amount of feedback about what users > like and dislike. Much of the negative feedback, when reduced to actionable > specifics, focuses on a small number of high-profile changes; for example, > the sidebar. When examined further, many of the problems are around certain > aspects of those changes rather than the changes themselves; for example, > the sidebar's modality and non-detachability rather than its entire > existence. In all honesty, take every reproach done to the side bar, such as (non- exhaustive list): - The tools in the side bar are modal. - The tools in the side bar don't have a floater equivalent any more that I can move on the screen and resize like I want. - The tools in the side bar contain less info than what was available with the old floaters at a singe glance (the friends list, for example) - It eats up half of the window. - It prevents keeping some floater open on the surface that it eats up when open (the camera and movement controls, for example) since the floater are kept over it. - The side bar icons would be better replaced by text to be made more explicit... In fact, all icons in the side bar would be better replaced by buttons in the tool bar. - It shrinks down the chat input line when opened. - Add your own here... Now, take the solutions to address each of these reproachs. What do you think is the smallest common multiplier ? It's: get rid of the side bar altogether (or make it optional) ! > When focused in this way, the work required to give our mainline viewer far > wider approval becomes much more manageable than reverting the entire UI. > Some of it may involve bringing back aspects of v1, or coming up with > something new, or making certain elements more configurable, or simply > choosing better defaults. There's no single answer, but there is a single > goal: we want to make something that's better for everyone than anything > we've made before. The problem being (seconded by the very fact 80% of SL users don't want to use viewer v2): for now, the viewer 2 UI is about the worst thing LL ever produced... Facts do sound blunt, by they are facts and even LL cannot deny them. But as long as you will accept ammending (and yes, it might well mean reverting in some cases) the UI, there is still some hope we can end up with a consensual (if not perfect) viewer. > On a related note, Esbee's put up the backlog: > https://spreadsheets2.google.com/ccc?key=tCVGlO5ndR_oyrfKEC9CxKA&hl=en#gid=5 > If you think we've been ignoring negative feedback, please take a look. And > gosh, what's that at the very top? Question being: how can I (or any other resident) add my own feedback to this ????? Regards, Henri. From secret.argent at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 04:54:20 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:54:20 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <5525628C-82A3-43C3-B15D-F55AC6651F96@gmail.com> On 2010-08-16, at 13:23, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > Well, the first improvement to do is to actually revert 80% of the UI > to the way v1.23's one was working, especially getting rid of that > moronic side bar is its modal tools which impair productivity and > user-friendliness... The question is: will LL finally admit that the > viewer 2 UI is a failure and widely rejected by 80% of its regular user > base, and accept a move in the way of "going back" (actually repairing) > UI-wise ?... At this point I just want to see them fix the focus in Viewer 2, so that the chat bar is part of the world (and stays focussed when you interact with in-world objects), at least as an option. From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 05:02:49 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:02:49 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Mailing lists for viewer-development commits & builds Message-ID: <4C6BCBE9.3000202@lindenlab.com> Commits to the http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development repository now generate email notices to the mailing list viewer-development-commits at lists.secondlife.com You can subscribe with the usual mailman mechanisms - the URL for the lists info page is: https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/viewer-development-commits I've got a list set up for build notices (same addresses as above, but 'viewer-development-builds'), but actually sending the notices to it from TeamCity is not working yet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/e5839ef8/attachment-0001.htm From jessesa at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 05:08:25 2010 From: jessesa at gmail.com (Jesse Barnett) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:08:25 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <5525628C-82A3-43C3-B15D-F55AC6651F96@gmail.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <5525628C-82A3-43C3-B15D-F55AC6651F96@gmail.com> Message-ID: (Illustrative example) I am so relieved that Linden Lab does actually listen to feedback from the residents that have supported it for so long. This should guarantee that the proposed user name/display name never goes into affect then. Back to OP subject thou; the spreadsheet does look pretty good and gives more hope then any of the discussions so far. Jesse Barnett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/12777453/attachment.htm From chess at us.ibm.com Wed Aug 18 05:51:23 2010 From: chess at us.ibm.com (David M Chess) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:51:23 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <201008181050.07882.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: Lance wrote: > What keeps me from, lets say, creating a throwaway alt, setting its Display > Name to "Stiletto Moody", and hanging out at that famous shoe shop telling > people that the place will close down and that all rights to the designs have > been sold to (whatever the place is that will sell copybotted versions). > Other than the fear of having that throwaway alt getting permanently banned in > maybe a year or two when the g-team gets around to doing it. This isn't much different from what you can do today, by creating a throwaway group with the tag "Moody Customer Service" and doing the same thing. Is it a huge problem? I don't see any evidence that it is. It does happen occasionally, but y'know: welcome to Earth. Will it become a huge problem with it can be the display name, rather than the group tag, that can be anything? I don't see any reason to think so, myself. Certainly it *will* be a good idea to stress to people that display names can be anything. But of course since everyone will have chosen their own, and known that they could choose anything, they will sort of know that! :) DC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/df599eda/attachment.htm From chess at us.ibm.com Wed Aug 18 05:56:14 2010 From: chess at us.ibm.com (David M Chess) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:56:14 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jesse wrote: > I am so relieved that Linden Lab does actually listen to feedback from the residents that have supported it for so long. This should guarantee that the proposed user name/display name never goes into affect then. I don't think that what you're implying there is true at all. I know the Lab has heard from *many* folks that they'd like to be able to choose their names, rather than having to pick a first name and one of a list of set last names. On the other hand, there have been less than a dozen people here complaining about it, and something like half of the complaints have been due to misunderstanding the impact it will have on scripts etc. (That page in the Wiki really needs work!) This is one issue where I think the Resi (and potential Resi) feedback would be overwhelmingly in favor of the change. So not a good one to choose for the inevitable "they aren't listening!!" message. :) DC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/6f45ebb9/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 05:58:07 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:58:07 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <5525628C-82A3-43C3-B15D-F55AC6651F96@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, look there, the ability to type in chat while interacting with objects in the world isn't on the spreadsheet anywhere. This is a complete show-stopper for viewer 2 for me, and for many of my friends who interact primarily in text and do not use voice chat. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/9d667260/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 06:05:48 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:05:48 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Michael Schlenker wrote: > Am 18.08.2010 um 01:16 schrieb Bryon Ruxton: > > And 2. you should also prevent anyone to use a display name baring the > name > > of an existing username in my opinion. > > NO. That would limit the usefulness for some kind of RP for sure. Can you elaborate on what kind of RP would require you to be able to set your display name to "Argent Stonecutter"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/f4ac70ab/attachment.htm From timothyhorrigan at mac.com Wed Aug 18 06:11:26 2010 From: timothyhorrigan at mac.com (Timothy Horrigan) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:11:26 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C6BDBFE.30902@mac.com> Scripters have already had to deal with the case where an avi's name changes. The Lindens have always had the option to rename avis (e.g., if an offensive name falls through the filters during registration, if an innoucuous name becomes offensive due to news events, if a Linden loses his or her job, etc.) That's why most scripts specify the identity of a user through his or her UUID rather than his or her name. In fact the only way to use the avi name in a script is to have it first look up the UUID. --Tammy Nowotny (I forget what my UUID is) David M Chess wrote: > > Jesse wrote: > > > I am so relieved that Linden Lab does actually listen to feedback > from the residents that have supported it for so long. This should > guarantee that the proposed user name/display name never goes into > affect then. > > I don't think that what you're implying there is true at all. I know > the Lab has heard from *many* folks that they'd like to be able to > choose their names, rather than having to pick a first name and one of > a list of set last names. > > On the other hand, there have been less than a dozen people here > complaining about it, and something like half of the complaints have > been due to misunderstanding the impact it will have on scripts etc. > (That page in the Wiki really needs work!) > > This is one issue where I think the Resi (and potential Resi) feedback > would be overwhelmingly in favor of the change. So not a good one to > choose for the inevitable "they aren't listening!!" message. :) > > DC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/155c5700/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Wed Aug 18 06:20:40 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:20:40 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201008181520.40801.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Wednesday 18 August 2010 14:58:07 Argent wrote: > Well, look there, the ability to type in chat while interacting with > objects in the world isn't on the spreadsheet anywhere. why would you need to type anyways when you can use voice... and if you don't want others to hear your voice you can simply buy a morph! From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 07:17:56 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:17:56 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C69F581.6070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6BEB94.2070300@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-17 0:16, Joel Foner wrote: > Providing text transcription of voice speakers for the disabled, as > well as those who for various reasons cannot enable voice at the time, > and for capture of a text searchable archive of the whole event, is a > solved problem. Totally solved. It needs no figuring out or > experimentation. > > Real-time voice to text transcription by a person during the event, as > well as an after-the-fact voice recording to transcription can be > done, and is often done, in Second Life, in various presentation, > discussion and meeting contexts. It costs some real money, but not an > outrageous amount for the service provided, and this has been done > inworld for years in various settings, providing ample precedent for > the fact that this approach "just works" just fine in Second Life. We'll be doing most of our meetings in chat (or at least with as much substantive information as possible in chat). If you are at one of our regular meetings and feel you're unable to follow what's happening, please let us know and we'll do our best to do better. We don't have a budget to pay for transcribers, but we'll do what we can to make what we do accessible short of that. From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 08:41:38 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:41:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-18 6:38, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > - DO NOT SEGREGATE SUBMISSIONS: since you made Snowstorm LGPL, there > is now*no more need* for the FLOSS exception and for contribution > agreements (since you can take a snapshot of the Open Source viewer > at anytime and incorporate them to your own closed source viewer, > and this without any LGPL contributor additional permission). There is no longer any FLOSS exception; as you point out, it would be redundant with the LGPL. We still do require a Contribution Agreement, for good and valid reasons I've explained many times - most notably that it allows us to improve our license in the future. Had we not required the CA in the past, we would not have been able to change from GPL to LGPL. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/5a9f3319/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 08:52:11 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:52:11 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <5525628C-82A3-43C3-B15D-F55AC6651F96@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C01AB.4000600@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-18 8:58, Argent wrote: > Well, look there, the ability to type in chat while interacting with > objects in the world isn't on the spreadsheet anywhere. > > This is a complete show-stopper for viewer 2 for me, and for many of > my friends who interact primarily in text and do not use voice chat. > That list is not static. Feel free to suggest additions. It's also true that the Snowstorm Product backlog is not the complete list of what LL is doing in the viewer - there are other teams (which may vary in how visible they make their own lists). From arrehn at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 08:54:53 2010 From: arrehn at gmail.com (Arrehn Oberlander) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:54:53 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> Message-ID: I realize that there's pros and cons to this UI selection vs box popups. However I don't believe the choice is at all cut and dry. When I stopped using the pie menu (because it doesn't exist in viewer 2.x) I discovered all sorts of navigation difficulties that where previously unknown. - The box dropdown requires the user to have greater precision and care when making selections - The pie menu supported muscle-memory for choices better - The pie menu does a better job of hiding the rarely used options and conversely making the most popular options highly visible. - The pie menu obscured less of the screen when it was active - The pie menu as implemented does a better job of cloaking/disabling unusable choices, the box menu greys them out but they are still visually harder to navigate. - The pie menu always pops up directly under the cursor, the box menu pops up to an indeterminent side depending on position. This is more predictable behavior and requires less mouse movement. - There's a large number of users already familiar with the pie menu. - After using both methods for a while, the pie menu is my personal preference by a fair margin. I looked at the XUI API docs to see what would be involved in bringing them back. I was concerned to see that the pie menu status lists as "deprecated". I believe this should be re-examined and hopefully be in the backlog for debate. From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 09:53:17 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:53:17 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-18 11:54, Arrehn Oberlander wrote: > I looked at the XUI API docs to see what would be involved in bringing > them back. I was concerned to see that the pie menu status lists as > "deprecated". I believe this should be re-examined and hopefully be in > the backlog for debate. I'm going to channel comments I've heard Q make here because he's not able to do it himself at the moment. While there were some good things about the v1 implementation of pie menus, they also had some flaws - such as not opening a submenu centered on the mouse click. I think that if someone were to step up and do the work to create a better pie menu implementation that we could do good comparisons with (and especially if it allowed menu style to be a preference setting), then it would be a much more interesting discussion. Note: that in no way should be interpreted as "we would take it if it happened" - I can't make any such commitment on my own at this time. If someone wants to sign up for the work, I'm willing to sponsor the discussion. From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 10:21:00 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:21:00 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Adding open dev items to the Snowstorm sprint Message-ID: <4C6C167C.8050807@lindenlab.com> To be a candidate for integration during the current two-week Snowstorm sprint, a change should be on the Snowstorm Sprint list . If it is not, then we can't be sure that we'll have the review and integration resources ready in time (which at worst means it waits for the next sprint to be re-prioritized, so it's not as bad as all that). If you are or would like to be working on an item that is on that list now, or you have some item you'd like us to be considering for adding to it, the window is open, but not for long. Send mail to Esbee and I today, or come to my Office Hours today with what the issue is and what you'd like to do about it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/b9a4ee4f/attachment.htm From makosoft at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 11:14:25 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:14:25 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On 8/18/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > While there were some good things about the v1 implementation of pie > menus, they also had some flaws - such as not opening a submenu centered > on the mouse click. I actually puzzled over this a bit when I first realised that Second Life's pie menus worked this way. Originally, the pie menus worked well when you didn't click too close to the edge of the screen but didn't actually open under the mouse cursor if you did. Since the "More..." item is sensibly always the southmost one, opening new submenus centered on the mouse would cause the pie menu to drift down the screen until it hit the bottom and caused problems. Also, opening the submenu at the same location has the nice side-effect that the mouse remains over the "More..." option for the pie menus that are nested 3 or more levels deep. What I have been contemplating is how to make it possible to open the next layer of a pie menu without moving the mouse at all. Sadly, it'd probably break too much from normal UI conventions to be worth doing. From schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de Wed Aug 18 11:19:35 2010 From: schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de (Michael Schlenker) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:19:35 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> Message-ID: <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> Am 18.08.2010 um 15:05 schrieb Argent: > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Michael Schlenker wrote: > Am 18.08.2010 um 01:16 schrieb Bryon Ruxton: > > And 2. you should also prevent anyone to use a display name baring the name > > of an existing username in my opinion. > > NO. That would limit the usefulness for some kind of RP for sure. > > Can you elaborate on what kind of RP would require you to be able to set your display name to "Argent Stonecutter"? > Sure. Anywhere you wanna have uniform appearance, like having a bunch of 'Agent Smith' AVs in black suits to give the impression of identical twins or clones. And compare to reality, where you cannot totally prevent anyone to use your name either, unless its used as a corporate name. It would have loved to ban others to use the firstname 'Michael', but that wasn't possible in RL, and so 7 of 28 of my classmates in 1st school class were named Michael. Its just like that, names are not unique if your horizon in time and space gets large enough. BUT there you have of course a point when you fear imposters and other people that try to make your name look bad due to their actions under your 'name'. Same issue in RL, you can go to court over it, or file criminal charges, not nice. The limitation is kind of arbitrary. Maybe if 'Display Names' got some hinting (e.g. by using a different font or some other UI hint), to distinguish them from 'transplanted' usernames it would be good enough for the trivial imposter cases. Michael From sldev at free.fr Wed Aug 18 11:27:23 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:27:23 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:41:38 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-08-18 6:38, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > - DO NOT SEGREGATE SUBMISSIONS: since you made Snowstorm LGPL, there > > is now*no more need* for the FLOSS exception and for contribution > > agreements (since you can take a snapshot of the Open Source viewer > > at anytime and incorporate them to your own closed source viewer, > > and this without any LGPL contributor additional permission). > > There is no longer any FLOSS exception; as you point out, it would be > redundant with the LGPL. > > We still do require a Contribution Agreement, for good and valid reasons > I've explained many times - most notably that it allows us to improve > our license in the future. Had we not required the CA in the past, we > would not have been able to change from GPL to LGPL. Since the license is now LGPL, you do not need any more such an agreement, even to change the license later. Every new submission to the code falls under the LGPL License, which allows you to reuse the said code together with more code under another License (including closed source code). You'd need an agreement only after changing the license (for example if you want to go back to a mixed GPL+FLOSS License) for people who would submit patches *after* the License is changed from LGPL. SL is the ONLY so-called (but actually still not, obviously: a Canada-Dry LGPL, perhaps ?) LGPL Open Source project requiring a License agreement from its contributors !!! This makes strictly no sense and is a clear impairement. I'd also be curious to know any other of your "good and valid reasons"... Regards, Henri. From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 12:04:21 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:04:21 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-18 14:14, Aidan Thornton wrote: > On 8/18/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> While there were some good things about the v1 implementation of pie >> menus, they also had some flaws - such as not opening a submenu centered >> on the mouse click. > I actually puzzled over this a bit when I first realised that Second > Life's pie menus worked this way. Originally, the pie menus worked > well when you didn't click too close to the edge of the screen but > didn't actually open under the mouse cursor if you did. Since the > "More..." item is sensibly always the southmost one, opening new > submenus centered on the mouse would cause the pie menu to drift down > the screen until it hit the bottom and caused problems. > > Also, opening the submenu at the same location has the nice > side-effect that the mouse remains over the "More..." option for the > pie menus that are nested 3 or more levels deep. > > What I have been contemplating is how to make it possible to open the > next layer of a pie menu without moving the mouse at all. Sadly, it'd > probably break too much from normal UI conventions to be worth doing. If I understood him correctly, what Q seemed to think was the right behavior is: * The first mouse-down opens the pie centered on the mouse location, so no choice is under the mouse * If the choice is a submenu, each new menu is also centered on the mouse that way, you are never making a choice within the submenu if you accidentally double click, because the center is never a choice. this does mean that the nested menus 'creep', but that has the effect that each nested choice is a 'gesture-like' unique series of clicks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/ed9222dd/attachment.htm From tinacloud at gmx.de Wed Aug 18 12:15:36 2010 From: tinacloud at gmx.de (Zi Ree) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:15:36 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201008182115.36925.tinacloud@gmx.de> Am Mittwoch 18 August 2010 21:04:21 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > If I understood him correctly, what Q seemed to think was the right > behavior is: > > * The first mouse-down opens the pie centered on the mouse location, > so no choice is under the mouse > * If the choice is a submenu, each new menu is also centered on the > mouse In my opinion, the way it worked on 1.x was the best way to do it. You open the menu in one place on the screen of your choosing, and it stays there, not creeping over the screen and potentially blocking the view on something you wanted to watch while selecting an entry. I wouldn't change that behavior. It worked well for years, nobody ever complained about it. And we should not fix something that's not broken. ;) Zi From kadah.coba at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 12:33:56 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:33:56 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C6C35A4.1090204@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/18/2010 12:04 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > If I understood him correctly, what Q seemed to think was the right > behavior is: > > * The first mouse-down opens the pie centered on the mouse location, > so no choice is under the mouse > * If the choice is a submenu, each new menu is also centered on the > mouse > > that way, you are never making a choice within the submenu if you > accidentally double click, because the center is never a choice. this > does mean that the nested menus 'creep', but that has the effect that > each nested choice is a 'gesture-like' unique series of clicks. I think he thinks that the proper behavior should have been that the cursor recenters on the new sub pie menu. I liked how for something like inspect was down, click, right, and delete was down, up-right. As long as the item in the submenu in that spot was either blank or nonharmfull, which it mostly was, I'd have nearly no problems. Unlike with the context menus used now, I'm always hunting for the option and frequently hit the wrong one. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMbDWkAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2hRMH/RNLyOFVogQGaMfBnax20dbp D+vQ2b6ANu48R4vCZtPDidvlWXde6cGBYpZrCrzzUKK+HeF4+KrW9IcDH+hnOPq7 YGUz2Q1CuYjuVWz9gVxioFe8zTQHKD92F+Mm3mkB+2PaFjxclejGf8nE54dft8Yc 6jEQTJ/bZB17KMIjMMWf+9fjPej6eF0zFjN0+6UpFXvMDiQHpllfY2KlJodd677P NhDTVPIOZELC3pJ4ssMGfJUK3CdyYXyEhJiRTV99qs1gn3VKT/Tbc/QuLM4NdcFk kchWh03rYVXG41rPEGJjjunayK6Qn2BpAwPbHbZTY7MWJ4P6Te1M1ZccwpfdvSo= =C9qT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From yoz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 12:44:47 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:44:47 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On 18 August 2010 09:53, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > I think that if someone were to step up and do the work to create a > better pie menu implementation that we could do good comparisons with > (and especially if it allowed menu style to be a preference setting), > then it would be a much more interesting discussion. > Existing JIRA here, for further discussion and patch submission: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17388 If someone wants to argue for changing the sub-menu placement behaviour, that should probably go in a sub-task. Might be interesting to prototype both, though what those requesting this are primarily arguing for is "exactly how it used to be". There may be potential problems if new menu items have been added for particular contexts, requiring rearrangement. I have no idea how real this problem currently is, but it would need investigation before we can assume that pie menus are easily added back. -- Yoz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/7d51c403/attachment.htm From bryon at slearth.com Wed Aug 18 13:05:23 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:05:23 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: I am not sure if that's what you meant as "not opening a submenu centered on the mouse click". or whether my suggestion would resolves it but I think the pie menu repetition on sub level is prone to confusion indeed. I would envision a pie menu on the first root level. And more normal submenus on subsequent levels, or something like this can be evaluated and perhaps improved: http://usabilitynews.usernomics.com/2008/05/circular-menus-and-usability.htm l But I prefer the pie menu as well personally. It fits better in the context of a 3d interaction. Flat pull down menus kind of break that immersive charm of the pie menu to me. On 8/18/10 9:53 AM, "Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)" wrote: > I'm going to channel comments I've heard Q make here because he's not > able to do it himself at the moment. > > While there were some good things about the v1 implementation of pie > menus, they also had some flaws - such as not opening a submenu centered > on the mouse click. > > I think that if someone were to step up and do the work to create a > better pie menu implementation that we could do good comparisons with > (and especially if it allowed menu style to be a preference setting), > then it would be a much more interesting discussion. > > Note: that in no way should be interpreted as "we would take it if it > happened" - I can't make any such commitment on my own at this time. If > someone wants to sign up for the work, I'm willing to sponsor the > discussion. From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 13:15:45 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:15:45 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fwd: Snowstorm Request: Shadow Support for Mac References: <5A4EF049-FEC6-48A4-A8F6-093969963516@gmail.com> Message-ID: <711C1951-455C-4D29-9969-6D07D4117343@gmail.com> I would like to have support for shadows in the Mac client. I think it would present a more compelling and immersive experience for residents who use Mac, and help draw in new users. === I'm not sure if you're a Mac user or not, but the mac client/renderer does not actually work when it comes to shadows. On any Mac hardware configuration. I've spent dozens of hours testing on multiple machines, and talked to hundreds of Macintosh SL users (via the in-world Macintosh Users Group and other forums) and come to realize that shadow rendering does not work on any system. I've also done extensive cross-platform testing on my primary system, a Mac Pro dual processor Xeon workstation w/32GB RAM, an nVidia GTX 285 1GB driving my primary display, and an nVidia GT120 512MB driving my secondary display. This machine should be more than capable. Running Windows 7 Professional x64 bit, shadows work just fine using a number of clients, including the SL 2.1 viewer. Running Mac OS X 10.6, strange artifacts and glitching appears on the screen. I'm attaching a zip file with three screen shots, showing what the result is in each step while enabling Framebuffer objects, deferred rendering, and then global illumination. I'm told by Nyx Linden that there may be some tweaks and adjustments that can be made to get this working. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Mac-Shadow.zip Type: application/zip Size: 3187844 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/23eade03/attachment-0001.zip -------------- next part -------------- Hopefully this is an easy win. All of Apple's shipping hardware has been well above "class 0" hardware since early 2009, and all current systems should have the GPU muscle needed to make this work. Thanks! TriloByte Zanzibar From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 13:16:09 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:16:09 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fwd: Snowstorm Request: Draw Distance Slider (and other useful buttons) References: <3C7B538A-614A-46D1-981F-01D4CB05FA3C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0CC474BF-A426-40F4-86B1-C35E00E495A8@gmail.com> I wish it were possible to easily adjust my draw distance within the viewer. In some scenes it's desirable to turn draw distance way up, while in others I risk crashing if the number is not reduced. It's not convenient or easy for new residents to find. =============== As a follow-on, a button for 'About Land' would be very handy for landlords and merchants/residents who rent land (and frequently need access to parcel settings) and a button for 'Advanced Sky' would be extremely useful for SL photographers and machinima creators as a means to more easily access windlight settings. =============== If possible, I'd like to have (either by default or as an option, like with buttons on the bottom of the Viewer window). Several months ago, I cobbled together some XML code based on tips from Opensource Obscure and Hitomi Tiponi found on the Second Life Wiki. The result is a modified panel_navigation_bar.xml, I will attach that modified file in a zipfile below - if it can be of any use please feel free to use it. For the last several months, I've been manually dropping the file into each build of the SL viewer, Snowglobe, and Kirsten's S20 TPV on both Windows and Mac platforms, and it's worked without incident. File gets placed in skins\default\xui\en Cheers TriloByte Zanzibar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/d153631d/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: panel_navigation_bar.xml.zip Type: application/zip Size: 2229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/d153631d/attachment.zip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/d153631d/attachment-0001.htm From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Wed Aug 18 13:51:37 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:51:37 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C6C47D9.4040708@fishkill.ibm.com> Henri Beauchamp wrote: > SL is the ONLY so-called (but actually still not, obviously: a Canada-Dry > LGPL, perhaps ?) LGPL Open Source project requiring a License agreement > from its contributors !!! This makes strictly no sense and is a clear > impairement. > > I'd also be curious to know any other of your "good and valid reasons"... I, obviously, am not in a position to speak for Linden Lab, but let me offer my opinion. This project is somewhat different from most LGPL projects in that if there is no CA, it places Linden in the position of being sued for copyright infringement if someone contributes plagiarized code. Most LGPL projects don't have a corporate owner with money worth suing for. Mike From mike.dickson at hp.com Wed Aug 18 13:57:27 2010 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:57:27 +0000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C47D9.4040708@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> <4C6C47D9.4040708@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2EE3AD3@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> There are loads of open source projects that are LGPL (in whole or part) and that require a contributors agreement. Joomla, Alfresco, OpenChange, Evolution, etc. It's a very common practice when a legal entity is the corporate sponsor for the project. The only impairment here is the constant bickering over useless details. Either you want to contribute or you don't. If you do LL is the copyright holder and has every right to insist you sign a contributors agreement in order to make code contributions so that they can administer the project. Mike -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Mike Monkowski Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:52 PM To: Henri Beauchamp Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement Henri Beauchamp wrote: > SL is the ONLY so-called (but actually still not, obviously: a Canada-Dry > LGPL, perhaps ?) LGPL Open Source project requiring a License agreement > from its contributors !!! This makes strictly no sense and is a clear > impairement. > > I'd also be curious to know any other of your "good and valid reasons"... I, obviously, am not in a position to speak for Linden Lab, but let me offer my opinion. This project is somewhat different from most LGPL projects in that if there is no CA, it places Linden in the position of being sued for copyright infringement if someone contributes plagiarized code. Most LGPL projects don't have a corporate owner with money worth suing for. Mike _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From anders at arnholm.se Wed Aug 18 14:49:35 2010 From: anders at arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:49:35 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4C6C556F.7020300@arnholm.se> 2010-08-18 00:54, Brian McGroarty skrev: > This is correct. Andromeda Quonset will be Andromeda Quonset forever. > At some point, new residents won't be able to choose a last name - > only these will be "Resident" > > No existing script function will return different results than it does > today. New script functions are added for fetching/referencing Display > Names. > It will, the existsing functuons will give a name that users of the new viewers have no possibility to see, unless they use a script. Thats something totally different that the username today is. The name will have changed it definition. As by that the think the functions return have changed. It's no longer a unique name you can use to tell users around you who a person is. It's a hell of a change in use case. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From anders at arnholm.se Wed Aug 18 15:01:51 2010 From: anders at arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:01:51 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <09EC3492-684C-4E4B-9982-57AB5C9A866B@lindenlab.com> References: <201008172334.36872.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4c6b02b3.6482e50a.06da.1cc1@mx.google.com> <4c6b1112.c507e60a.71d3.ffffd90a@mx.google.com> <4c6b178a.5f83e60a.48e0.ffffdfca@mx.google.com> <09EC3492-684C-4E4B-9982-57AB5C9A866B@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C6C584F.5040509@arnholm.se> 2010-08-18 01:42, Aimee Linden skrev: > No, that's not the case, display names are not returned to the existing LSL functions. Your existing account will always be seen as Andromeda Quonset to existing scripts no matter what you change your display name to. > > New LSL calls used to return display names to new scripts equally will not be a problem for older viewers either, what viewer you are running makes no difference to a script which is running on the server. > > Aimee. > It will be, depenign on the use of the name returned. If you used the old LSL functions, users of the old viewers will understand the output of the scripts. But new users only having DispalyName-UserName will not have the connections and see chat as the old usernames, Using that for llSay() would be very confusing for the user. Script using the new interfaces will on the other hand be writing out DisplayNames, These displaynames will be impossible for users of the old viewers to connect to any person around. This makes the scripts not work for users of the old viewers. As scripter you Can't write a product that uses the name of the people around and get any good result. Any of the three names you choose will not work for one of the user groups. You are borked. Having unique names to be used for residents solved all the probems we have in like email systems with Joe.a.Doe at example.com ... Joe.z.Doe at example.com where no one knew who was a, b, z etc. The change will not only make working products fail for users of the new viewer, it will make it impossible to make a product that works for all users in the sim. / Balp -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From anders at arnholm.se Wed Aug 18 15:27:02 2010 From: anders at arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:27:02 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6BDBFE.30902@mac.com> References: <4C6BDBFE.30902@mac.com> Message-ID: <4C6C5E36.1090908@arnholm.se> 2010-08-18 15:11, Timothy Horrigan skrev: > Scripters have already had to deal with the case where an avi's name > changes. The Lindens have always had the option to rename avis (e.g., > if an offensive name falls through the filters during registration, if > an innoucuous name becomes offensive due to news events, if a Linden > loses his or her job, etc.) That's why most scripts specify the > identity of a user through his or her UUID rather than his or her > name. In fact the only way to use the avi name in a script is to have > it first look up the UUID. With the new change the crips can't male a simple llSay() with the name the users around expect to see, one of the usergroups will see a name they have no idea what it is or is super ugly. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/cefaebd1/attachment.htm From anders at arnholm.se Wed Aug 18 15:31:53 2010 From: anders at arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:31:53 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> Message-ID: <4C6C5F59.5040801@arnholm.se> 2010-08-18 20:19, Michael Schlenker skrev: > Am 18.08.2010 um 15:05 schrieb Argent: > > >> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Michael Schlenker wrote: >> Am 18.08.2010 um 01:16 schrieb Bryon Ruxton: >> >>> And 2. you should also prevent anyone to use a display name baring the name >>> of an existing username in my opinion. >>> >> >> NO. That would limit the usefulness for some kind of RP for sure. >> >> Can you elaborate on what kind of RP would require you to be able to set your display name to "Argent Stonecutter"? >> >> > Sure. Anywhere you wanna have uniform appearance, like having a bunch of 'Agent Smith' AVs in black suits to give the > impression of identical twins or clones. > On the other hand in RL yuou can usally hear fomr where the voice comes, in text chat you can't. FOr the people, not LL, handling the most of the abuse greifing an other stuff, and the most common problem in any roleplay group Drama, text logs where names aint unique will be a terrible mess to sort out. They wil case new drama's as well. All sl roleplayers I know think this is about the worst they heard off EVER. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From soft at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 15:54:13 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:54:13 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > SL is the ONLY so-called (but actually still not, obviously: a Canada-Dry > LGPL, perhaps ?) LGPL Open Source project requiring a License agreement > from its contributors !!! ?This makes strictly no sense and is a clear > impairement. Axiom, OpenOffice, NetBeans, Joomla!, Alfresco, ... -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From aklo at skyhighway.com Wed Aug 18 16:23:03 2010 From: aklo at skyhighway.com (aklo at skyhighway.com) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Display Name & Viewer 1.x vs. Viewer 2.x Message-ID: <10031604d4fe4061f6ad8f82213e6e30.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> Display Name: i don't want my name to *ever* appear in a login screen or anywhere else as something like "aklo.modan" If there's a reason to have that kind of construct as a name used by scripts or whatever, that's fine so long as it's kept "under the covers." But no simple user should ever see it. Same thing goes for "Resident". It's an awful last (or any other) name to *force* on people and shouldn't be something users have to *ever* look at even though it may be necessary or reasonable or whatever for development, administration & all that. If someone picks it, that's their deal, but there's other ways to solve development problems that don't have to be put in the faces of people who aren't doing dev or admin kinds of things. Appearances can be whatever and some people change them faster than they go through toilet paper. Display Names will make identity even less certain, but why not? i gotta say, though, if the name you see over an avi's head doesn't mean anything to someone just looking at a screen, then why not make any display of it at all an option? What i mean is, just have an option to turn off the entire ID bubble since it won't be very meaningful anyway. Basically, i think there's a really big diff between people liking the idea of being able to pick their entire name (even if it's all small letters or special characters or ...) and forcing them into a "Resident clan" bucket, garbaging up their favorite name with a bunch of numbers so it's unique, or making them look at some ugly string that's been computer friendlied for them. Viewer 1.x vs. Viewer 2.x: i tried really hard to not only use, but to actually *like* Viewer 2. i failed. i used it at least some every time i did SL for over 3 months and got to where i could do almost everything i do with Viewer 1.23 Somethings were easier, some were harder. i wrote out a long list of stuff that i'm not going to bother people with about what i did and didn't like. Most of it's been covered recently on this list, anyway. Basically, the improvements in what it can do are great, but the UI is *awful*. The most disappointing thing to me is the impact on immersion. i'm not going to bother people with my weird ideas about the potential for SL to expand reality for us, avatar compared to vihaya, and all the other esoteric stuff that goes through my mind. i think it's enough to say that i want more out of my SL experience than a browser class "game." i don't play games. The last straw for me was the second time a Viewer 2 auto-update disabled the viewer so it wouldn't even start. i gave up testing it after that. Please note that it was the *second* time. The original Viewer 2 installation i did during the beta had already died over the same type of problem and been replaced by a completely fresh installation of the current Viewer 2 about 2 months ago. Extra: i like the UI to be sort of a "Terminator" style HUD. That is, all virtual world with all the controls & chat stuff in windows or widgets that maybe stay on screen, but fade in and out from some variable degree of transparency as requested or whatever. And highly configurable, like being able to be put anywhere on the screen, resized, recolored, and so on. Just sayin'. i think i've been sorta asked for my opinion? The draw distance setting is a real problem. There are some sims (like the one where i live) where tp with it set much over 150 will cause a crash almost every time. It would be super cool if there were an onscreen widget like the movement & camera controls so it could be changed more easily. It makes sense several ways. And, if tp with high draw distance values is a problem for lots of people, then why not have it effectively detuned to 0 or whatever by tp just before the actual tp is executed, and then put back before tp completely exits? Am i the only one who has the problem? i see that some avis with some viewers & HUDs have awesome prescience. Like, super radar & stuff like that. Why can't all those tools be available as UI options in the standard viewers? i'm pitying the noob and casual user here. Or for that matter, just trying to even things out so we all have a chance to have a good time in SL. Except the griefers. They suck. Like Lance says, bye. - AK From Celierra at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 16:40:13 2010 From: Celierra at gmail.com (Celierra Darling) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:40:13 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Pie menu ideas (was: Re: Open Viewer Development Announcement) Message-ID: Seems like this should be in a different thread.... To get rid of creep, perhaps slide the pie instead of the mouse cursor while moving the mouse. As an example, if you move your mouse south to the "More..." option, the actual cursor can remain in the same position on the screen, but the pie can slide northward under the mouse cursor. On the submenus-extending-out-from-the-wedge mockup that someone linked to before [1], I think something like that is probably what users would expect. But I don't like the kludge that the article uses - it expands "View" at the edge of the menu to avoid making the submenu's wedges annoyingly thin. That suddenly eats into a lot of the space for the neighboring wedges (especially as SL's wedges expand infinitely out), so I can imagine a lot of unintentional actions like, say, if you accidentally hover over "View" on the way to "This Page" in the mockup. There could be some zoom going on instead. I am imagining the submenu's wedges widening and filling a semicircle, with the backwards direction indicating 'Back'. The Dasher text input system does something like what I mean, although Dasher's is linear (and it has way way too many options) [2]. It might be a little weird to have buttons growing as you approach them; Apple seems to like the visual effect (ex. the dock) but I can't think of any other examples. Celi [1] http://techknack.net/circular-menus-and-usability/ [2] http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/, Java demo at http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/TryJavaDasherNow.html On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-08-18 14:14, Aidan Thornton wrote: > > On 8/18/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > While there were some good things about the v1 implementation of pie > menus, they also had some flaws - such as not opening a submenu centered > on the mouse click. > > I actually puzzled over this a bit when I first realised that Second > Life's pie menus worked this way. Originally, the pie menus worked > well when you didn't click too close to the edge of the screen but > didn't actually open under the mouse cursor if you did. Since the > "More..." item is sensibly always the southmost one, opening new > submenus centered on the mouse would cause the pie menu to drift down > the screen until it hit the bottom and caused problems. > > Also, opening the submenu at the same location has the nice > side-effect that the mouse remains over the "More..." option for the > pie menus that are nested 3 or more levels deep. > > What I have been contemplating is how to make it possible to open the > next layer of a pie menu without moving the mouse at all. Sadly, it'd > probably break too much from normal UI conventions to be worth doing. > > > If I understood him correctly, what Q seemed to think was the right > behavior is: > > - The first mouse-down opens the pie centered on the mouse location, so > no choice is under the mouse > - If the choice is a submenu, each new menu is also centered on the > mouse > > that way, you are never making a choice within the submenu if you > accidentally double click, because the center is never a choice. this does > mean that the nested menus 'creep', but that has the effect that each nested > choice is a 'gesture-like' unique series of clicks. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/4cc0105f/attachment.htm From kf6kjg at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 17:23:37 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:23:37 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] To Pie or To List Message-ID: (Figured this topic needed it's own thread) I've had issues myself with the new list format menu... But they wind up being different issues than I had with the old pie menu. With the old pie menu I found myself accidentally deleting objects, or otherwise having problems, when I moved my mouse rapidly: I'm occasionally fumble-fingered with my mouse when I lift it for repositioning, especially when I'm tired and working fast. With the new menu, I've not had this issue. +1. With the new menu, I've almost reported abuse/returned/etc my own items. -1. It seems to me a little weird that those options show up when clicking on something you are both the creator and owner of. It's still a little weird even if not the creator, but still the owner! Since the only item in that sublist that makes any sense (to me) in this context is the delete option, I believe it should be the topmost, if not the only option. Furthermore, if I don't have the privileges to return an item the return option should be either removed or grayed out. The new menu has (almost) everything at the highest level, with less often (or long) sets grouped into hover menus. +1. The list format is also a more common, and thusly an easier to (re)learn, UI element than the pie, which took me months to get familiar with. I was used to the list in a day, so was the rest of my family. +1. However, there were items in the old pie that were really useful, and those weren't in the new list. -1. Some of those were listed in the mods on the wiki, and are being re-introduced. +1. Ricky Cron Stardust From kf6kjg at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 17:25:05 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:25:05 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Inventory Transfer Message-ID: My mom is relatively new to SL. (Meaning that she's had an account for a while, been doing things for a while, but still sees through the eyes of a new user. Unlike myself...) Well, she was recently instructed by my dad (an advanced user like myself) to send him a notecard she was editing. She asked how. My dad instructed her to "drag it to the IM window." This she knew how to find. She then complained that it didn't work. This brought me to look at what she was doing. She was trying to drag the notecard edit window onto the chat popup to send him the notecard. Because of this, I would like to put forth the suggestion for further study of allowing the user to drag asset windows (notecards, textures, etc.) onto the varied existing ways of sending content. (IMs, Profile pages, etc) The main counter I can think of for this is that sending inventory accidentally would become more prevalent. There are ways to solve that, but shows that the above solution may not be optimal. Suggestions? Ricky Cron Stardust From hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 18 17:27:25 2010 From: hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk (Hitomi Tiponi) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:27:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Request: Draw Distance Slider (and other useful buttons) Message-ID: <347832.17127.qm@web23904.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Trilobyte, I agree that those two, or many other features from StarLight (left-handed sidebar option, smaller camera controls, revised "Me" menu, "inventory" button etc.) may be useful additions to the Viewer - the Snowstorm team (well at least Esbee) are aware of it and may use what they want. StarLight is a true example of community co-operation - for example, the 'About Land' button came from Alexandrea Fride and the draw distance slider was a modification by me of work by Avi Arrow. None of them are particularly wonderful, but they do seem popular :). Hitomi Tiponi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/8474d25a/attachment.htm From kf6kjg at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 17:28:15 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:28:15 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Pie menu ideas (was: Re: Open Viewer Development Announcement) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, was writing my post, didn't see that you had already posted a topic! Ricky Cron Stardust On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Celierra Darling wrote: > Seems like this should be in a different thread.... > To get rid of creep, perhaps slide the pie instead of the mouse cursor while > moving the mouse. ?As an example, if you move your mouse south to the > "More..." option, the actual cursor can remain in the same position on the > screen, but the pie can slide northward under the mouse cursor. > On the submenus-extending-out-from-the-wedge mockup that someone linked to > before [1], I think something like that is probably what users would expect. > ?But?I don't like the?kludge?that the article uses - it expands "View" at > the edge?of the menu to avoid making the submenu's wedges annoyingly thin. > ?That suddenly eats?into a lot of the space for the neighboring wedges > (especially as SL's wedges expand infinitely out), so I can imagine a lot of > unintentional actions like, say, if you accidentally hover over "View" on > the way to "This Page" in the mockup. > There could be some zoom going on instead. ?I am imagining the submenu's > wedges widening and filling a semicircle, with the backwards direction > indicating 'Back'. ?The Dasher text input system does something like what I > mean, although Dasher's is linear (and it has way way too many options) [2]. > ?It might be a little weird to have buttons growing as you approach them; > Apple seems to like the visual effect (ex. the dock) but I can't think of > any other examples. > Celi > [1]?http://techknack.net/circular-menus-and-usability/ > [2]?http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/, Java demo > at?http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/TryJavaDasherNow.html > On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) > wrote: >> >> On 2010-08-18 14:14, Aidan Thornton wrote: >> >> On 8/18/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> >> While there were some good things about the v1 implementation of pie >> menus, they also had some flaws - such as not opening a submenu centered >> on the mouse click. >> >> I actually puzzled over this a bit when I first realised that Second >> Life's pie menus worked this way. Originally, the pie menus worked >> well when you didn't click too close to the edge of the screen but >> didn't actually open under the mouse cursor if you did. Since the >> "More..." item is sensibly always the southmost one, opening new >> submenus centered on the mouse would cause the pie menu to drift down >> the screen until it hit the bottom and caused problems. >> >> Also, opening the submenu at the same location has the nice >> side-effect that the mouse remains over the "More..." option for the >> pie menus that are nested 3 or more levels deep. >> >> What I have been contemplating is how to make it possible to open the >> next layer of a pie menu without moving the mouse at all. Sadly, it'd >> probably break too much from normal UI conventions to be worth doing. >> >> If I understood him correctly, what Q seemed to think was the right >> behavior is: >> >> The first mouse-down opens the pie centered on the mouse location, so no >> choice is under the mouse >> If the choice is a submenu, each new menu is also centered on the mouse >> >> that way, you are never making a choice within the submenu if you >> accidentally double click, because the center is never a choice.? this does >> mean that the nested menus 'creep', but that has the effect that each nested >> choice is a 'gesture-like' unique series of clicks. >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 17:36:13 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 02:36:13 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Backlog Request: SNOW-766 Message-ID: Status: reviewed by Merov, committed to snowglobe 1.4, 1.5 and 2.1. Background: When developing many viewers in parallel (and snowstorm with it's many clones that need to be checked out won't change that), it becomes necessary to automate certain things with scripts. One of the things those scripts need to know is the current build directory. However, the build directory is a function of the configuration of the viewer. In order to remove human maintenance (and possible errors therein) it is desirable to have an automated way to convert configuration to build directory name. I wrote such scripts and they "break down" with the current viewer-development: hikaru:/usr/src/secondlife/viewers/snowstorm/test-20100818>source env.source Error: unknown subcommand 'printbuilddirs' (run 'develop.py --help' for help) CONFIGURE_OPTS = "--type=Release -m64 --standalone" CMAKE_DEFS = "-DLL_TESTS:BOOL=ON -DPACKAGE:BOOL=ON -DCMAKE_VERBOSE_MAKEFILE:BOOL=ON" CMAKE_PREFIX_PATH = "/sl:/sl/usr" CMAKE_INCLUDE_PATH = "/usr/src/secondlife/llqtwebkit/install2/include:/usr/src/secondlife/viewers/snowstorm/test-20100818/include:/sl/usr/include" CMAKE_LIBRARY_PATH = "/usr/src/secondlife/llqtwebkit/install2/lib:" Sprint plan: Port this patch to viewer-development for the next sprint and test it. Before patch: hikaru:/usr/src/secondlife/viewers/snowstorm/test-20100818/linden/indra>./develop.py --type=Release -m64 --standalone printbuilddirs setting DISTCC_DIR to /usr/src/secondlife/viewers/snowstorm/test-20100818/linden/indra/.distcc Error: unknown subcommand 'printbuilddirs' (run 'develop.py --help' for help) After patch: This should print (on this box): viewer-linux-x86_64-release Please let me know if anything is wrong or missing in this post, Aleric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/3f6b56ce/attachment.htm From tapplek at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 19:36:32 2010 From: tapplek at gmail.com (Tapple Gao) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:36:32 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? Message-ID: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> I'm on Gentoo Linux, and the build instructions for Linux [1] have never worked for me (./develop.py cmake; ./develop.py build). I've talked with some people on IRC, and I'm now under the impression that develop.py is rather obsolete, which may be part of my problem. However, that doesn't really help me, as I have no idea how to use cmake. Also, the build instructions have a lot of caveats for standalone builders, which, as someone who has never even been able to complete a non-standalone build, I am rather confused by. So, I'd like it if someone could update the linux build documentation, and make it really easy for first-time (non-standalone) builders to follow: - Show how to use cmake rather than develop.py - seperate out standalone and non-standalone into seperate documents As an aside, the Imprudence viewer team has really overhauled the build process, and as a result, Imprudence is the only viewer that is actually able to find all my libraries and complete a build from an svn checkout. I would strongly suggest you integrate their build changes into the main viewer. If there is really going to be more focus on open source, it is really important to make sure new people like me are able to compile the viewer from source. [1] Linux build instructions: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) -- Matthew Fulmer (a.k.a. Tapple) From tateru at taterunino.net Wed Aug 18 19:42:02 2010 From: tateru at taterunino.net (Tateru Nino) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:42:02 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2EE3AD3@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> <4C6C47D9.4040708@fishkill.ibm.com> <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2EE3AD3@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <4C6C99FA.5010103@taterunino.net> You can also revoke the copyright assignment at (almost) any time. On 19/08/2010 6:57 AM, Dickson, Mike (ISS Software) wrote: > There are loads of open source projects that are LGPL (in whole or part) and that require a contributors agreement. Joomla, Alfresco, OpenChange, Evolution, etc. It's a very common practice when a legal entity is the corporate sponsor for the project. The only impairment here is the constant bickering over useless details. Either you want to contribute or you don't. If you do LL is the copyright holder and has every right to insist you sign a contributors agreement in order to make code contributions so that they can administer the project. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Mike Monkowski > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Henri Beauchamp > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement > > Henri Beauchamp wrote: >> SL is the ONLY so-called (but actually still not, obviously: a Canada-Dry >> LGPL, perhaps ?) LGPL Open Source project requiring a License agreement >> from its contributors !!! This makes strictly no sense and is a clear >> impairement. >> >> I'd also be curious to know any other of your "good and valid reasons"... > I, obviously, am not in a position to speak for Linden Lab, but let me > offer my opinion. This project is somewhat different from most LGPL > projects in that if there is no CA, it places Linden in the position of > being sued for copyright infringement if someone contributes plagiarized > code. Most LGPL projects don't have a corporate owner with money worth > suing for. > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 19:49:37 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:49:37 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C99FA.5010103@taterunino.net> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> <4C6C47D9.4040708@fishkill.ibm.com> <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2EE3AD3@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> <4C6C99FA.5010103@taterunino.net> Message-ID: <4C6C9BC1.60904@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-18 22:42, Tateru Nino wrote: > You can also revoke the copyright assignment at (almost) any time. No, you can not. There is no such provision in the Contribution Agreement. From esbee at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 19:57:31 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:57:31 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 08/18/2010 Message-ID: Date: Wed Aug 18 Also available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive == GENERAL NOTES == Q is OOO for the next few days Don't forget to update the time you spent on a task in the Sprint Backlog at the end of each day! == DAILY SCRUM == === Aimee === PAST Merged first batch of Snowglobe build fixes from aimee_linden/viewer-development-import to viewer-development Staged some more into aimee_linden/viewer-development-import FUTURE Merge from aimee_linden/viewer-development-import to viewer-development Pull in some more Snowglobe fixes Rinse and repeat IMPEDIMENTS None === Tofu === OOO === Oz === PAST Snowglobe meeting Set up mailing lists for commit and build notices (build notices not yet flowing - commits work) FUTURE Improve wiki page on hg workflow Get build notices from canonical build of viewer-development to list Office Hours IMPEDIMENTS (minor) Can't get ssh authentication to hg.secondlife.com/bitbucket.org working === Q === OOO === Merov ==== PAST Attended Snowstorm sprint planning meeting Snowstorm sync: cloned and built http://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development (Mac). Works like a charm except I can't get llkdu to load (loads openjpeg instead). This is germane to the next task. LLKDU in viewer-development: I realized that Snowstorm doesn't load libllkdu.dylib on Mac even if present in the bundle. The same is true for SG2.0 at least for the version built on my machine. I need to investigate all that in the context of solving this "building with llkdu" issue for Snowstorm but it might be more general than just a Windows issue. Snowglobe backlog: started a list and got it ready for the sprint meeting. Didn't get used eventually. Fielded lots of Snowglobe questions on #opensl and during a looong OH session Took care of my email backlog! Yes! FUTURE LLKDU in viewer-development: Snowstorm sync: do the Windows part IMPEDIMENTS Snowglobe building questions/requests on #opensl consumed === Esbee ==== PAST Posted public Snowstorm Backlog and Sprint Backlog Ran our first inworld Sprint Planning Meeting Created Jiras for each user story we've taken on for Sprint 2 Responded to some SLCC and Snowstorm blog feedback FUTURE Jira bug triage for Sprint 2 Assist team with Scrum tasks Continue to follow up on SLCC and Snowstorm blog feedback Overall Jira clean up Sync up with Oz IMPEDIMENTS None === Paul ==== PAST BUG EXT-8588 (URL-like name of group is shown as hyperlink in group mini-inspector) Almost finished, but ran into a problem. Reassigned to Anya with questions. BUG EXT-8672 ([HARD CODED] ALL LANGS The word "Saved" is hard coded, in the long timestamp displayed in IM when user is offline) In progress FUTURE BUG EXT-8672 ([HARD CODED] ALL LANGS The word "Saved" is hard coded, in the long timestamp displayed in IM when user is offline) IMPEDIMENTS EXT-8588 === Andrew ==== PAST Task EXT-8425 ([HARD CODED] ALL LANGS: Unlocalized keyboard keys under Advanced menu > Shortcuts (French viewer)) reopened Pushed. Bug EXT-8635 (Replace "no matches found" with "loading" in the My Outfits tab). Yesterdays attempt with background fetching didn't work. Consluted with Serget again, fixed, sent for review. Bug EXT-6527 (IM chat history log in plain text mode looks ugly when displays avatar SLURLs). WIP. FUTURE EXT-6527 (IM chat history log in plain text mode looks ugly when displays avatar SLURLs). IMPEDIMENTS Failed at resurrecting debug. Will clone repository again tomorrow. === Vadim ==== PAST Organizational issues, including Snowstorm Sprint Planning meeting. Task EXT-8564 (Add option fo take off wearables via "Wearing" Tab): Committed. Bug EXT-8357 (ESC will not de-focus the sidebar): Committed. Bug EXT-4977 (After teleporting, opening/closing the side panel causes the screen to turn black): Resolved as not reproducible. FUTURE Bug EXT-8630 (Ctrl-Shift-W hides all chat until a viewer restart). Find new tickets for our tasks in Snowstorm Sprint #2, and assign them. Start on new sprint tasks. IMPEDIMENTS none === Sergey ==== PAST Critical bug (EXT-7083) Initial preferences are "G" but allow me to enter Moderate regions. Pushed fix. Investigate if maturity rating can be removed from config. Perhaps not worth a separate task. Bug (EXT-7325) My Landmarks: "Show on Map" context menu item is enabled while "Map" button is disabled for selected landmark. Fixed. Uploaded for review. FUTURE Bug (EXT-8697) My Landmarks: 'Cut' item should be greyed out in folder's context menu Bug (EXT-8699) 'Item Profile' panel isn't udated if change name of that item from 'Object contents' floater IMPEDIMENTS none === Anya ==== PAST mostly QA coordination issues appearance ownership FUTURE crashhunters discus future of PE's current backlog, other bugfixing within the big picture. IMPEDIMENTS none -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/3d8346fb/attachment-0001.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Aug 18 20:12:25 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:12:25 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Please - enough about the CA In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C6CA119.2010406@lindenlab.com> > On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: >> SL is the ONLY so-called (but actually still not, obviously: a Canada-Dry >> LGPL, perhaps ?) LGPL Open Source project requiring a License agreement >> from its contributors !!! This makes strictly no sense and is a clear >> impairement. > > Axiom, OpenOffice, NetBeans, Joomla!, Alfresco, ... > > and all projects under the Apache Foundation. http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas and the Perl Foundation http://www.perlfoundation.org/contributor_license_agreement and the Python Foundation http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form-python/ none of which are in any way commercial, and all of whom embody the ideals to which other open source projects aspire. I know that some of you won't sign an agreement, and that you have reasons you think are good. I accept that whether I agree with those reasons or not, while deeply regreting not being able to share in your work. If any of you are unsure what the implications of the agreement are, I am happy to provide what assistance I can if you contact me _off_ of the list (but I am not a lawyer, and crucially I am not _your_ lawyer). There may come a time when Linden Lab will revisit the requirement for or the terms of the CA. If I'm still here, I'll let the community know when that is happening. For the time being, changing the CA is not on the table - we've got other things to spend our time and energy on at the moment - like making Second Life Fast, Easy, and Fun. If you feel the need to continue to rail against the CA, please take it somewhere else and leave this list to people who are trying to do the things that are possible now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100818/7138803f/attachment.htm From penny.patton.sl at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 23:46:39 2010 From: penny.patton.sl at gmail.com (Penny Patton) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 01:46:39 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Correcting Height Displayed in Appearance Editor / Improved Default Camera Position Message-ID: I'm proposing these two changes together because they are related to the larger issue of building/visual design and scale in SL. Correcting either will help a bit, correcting both will help content creators a lot. This is my first contribution to the dev list, and as per the wiki I've tried to keep the story for each issue nice and short. The Jira pages explain these problems, and how they affect content creation, in much more detail. Correcting Height Displayed in Appearance Editor - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19767 AgentHeight does not actually match the size of the avatar mesh so the avatar height that is displayed in the appearance editor is incorrect. This creates confusion and provides false information on which people base avatar design decisions. This leads to larger avatars which present problems to both environment designers and animators. Environment designers are forced to build larger to compensate. The disparity between "average" avatar sizes that this contributes to creates issues animators cannot work around. The confusion it creates regarding avatar size causes animators to present incorrect information to customers with regards to purchasing animations designed for specific avatar sizes. ============================================================================= Improving Default Camera Placement - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19238 The current default camera placement requires users to zoom out significantly to get a good view of their avatar and surroundings, the camera moves up as well as back creating conflicts between the camera and the environment unless the environment is substantially up-scaled to compensate Improving the camera placement used by the average resident would allow builders to create larger, more detailed environments by building at a reduced scale. - Penny Patton -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/eaae2368/attachment.htm From dahliatrimble at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 00:00:25 2010 From: dahliatrimble at gmail.com (Dahlia Trimble) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:00:25 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C35A4.1090204@gmail.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> <4C6C35A4.1090204@gmail.com> Message-ID: One thing I liked about the pie menu is the area where the mouse click needs to take place increases in width as you move away from the center, making it easy to make the desired pick. I often find when navigating nested rectangular menus that it's difficult to keep the mouse hovered in the desired area and it tends to open the wrong one unless the cursor is very precisely placed. This is especially troublesome when navigating thru several menu levels. On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Kadah wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On 8/18/2010 12:04 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > If I understood him correctly, what Q seemed to think was the right > > behavior is: > > > > * The first mouse-down opens the pie centered on the mouse location, > > so no choice is under the mouse > > * If the choice is a submenu, each new menu is also centered on the > > mouse > > > > that way, you are never making a choice within the submenu if you > > accidentally double click, because the center is never a choice. this > > does mean that the nested menus 'creep', but that has the effect that > > each nested choice is a 'gesture-like' unique series of clicks. > > I think he thinks that the proper behavior should have been that the > cursor recenters on the new sub pie menu. > > I liked how for something like inspect was down, click, right, and > delete was down, up-right. As long as the item in the submenu in that > spot was either blank or nonharmfull, which it mostly was, I'd have > nearly no problems. Unlike with the context menus used now, I'm always > hunting for the option and frequently hit the wrong one. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMbDWkAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2hRMH/RNLyOFVogQGaMfBnax20dbp > D+vQ2b6ANu48R4vCZtPDidvlWXde6cGBYpZrCrzzUKK+HeF4+KrW9IcDH+hnOPq7 > YGUz2Q1CuYjuVWz9gVxioFe8zTQHKD92F+Mm3mkB+2PaFjxclejGf8nE54dft8Yc > 6jEQTJ/bZB17KMIjMMWf+9fjPej6eF0zFjN0+6UpFXvMDiQHpllfY2KlJodd677P > NhDTVPIOZELC3pJ4ssMGfJUK3CdyYXyEhJiRTV99qs1gn3VKT/Tbc/QuLM4NdcFk > kchWh03rYVXG41rPEGJjjunayK6Qn2BpAwPbHbZTY7MWJ4P6Te1M1ZccwpfdvSo= > =C9qT > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/ce496c12/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Thu Aug 19 02:09:16 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:09:16 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Please - enough about the CA In-Reply-To: <4C6CA119.2010406@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> <4C6CA119.2010406@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: None of those projects have an agreement that allows proprietary versions On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:12 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > SL is the ONLY so-called (but actually still not, obviously: a Canada-Dry > LGPL, perhaps ?) LGPL Open Source project requiring a License agreement > from its contributors !!! ?This makes strictly no sense and is a clear > impairement. > > Axiom, OpenOffice, NetBeans, Joomla!, Alfresco, ... > > > and all projects under the Apache Foundation. > > http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas > > and the Perl Foundation > > http://www.perlfoundation.org/contributor_license_agreement > > and the Python Foundation > > http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form-python/ > > none of which are in any way commercial, and all of whom embody the ideals > to which other open source projects aspire. > > I know that some of you won't sign an agreement, and that you have reasons > you think are good. ?I accept that whether I agree with those reasons or > not, while deeply regreting not being able to share in your work. > > If any of you are unsure what the implications of the agreement are, I am > happy to provide what assistance I can if you contact me _off_ of the list > (but I am not a lawyer, and crucially I am not _your_ lawyer). > > There may come a time when Linden Lab will revisit the requirement for or > the terms of the CA. ?If I'm still here, I'll let the community know when > that is happening. > > For the time being, changing the CA is not on the table - we've got other > things to spend our time and energy on at the moment - like making Second > Life Fast, Easy, and Fun. > > If you feel the need to continue to rail against the CA, please take it > somewhere else and leave this list to people who are trying to do the things > that are possible now. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From secret.argent at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 02:51:44 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 04:51:44 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> Message-ID: <25716A75-CF7B-477C-87D5-4E72EA0912D7@gmail.com> On 2010-08-18, at 13:19, Michael Schlenker wrote: >> Can you elaborate on what kind of RP would require you to be able to set your display name to "Argent Stonecutter" > Sure. Anywhere you wanna have uniform appearance, like having a bunch of 'Agent Smith' AVs in black suits to give the > impression of identical twins or clones. That wouldn't be "having the same display name as a user name". That would be "having the same display name as another display name". I'm not talking about that. Is anyone talking about that? From secret.argent at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 02:56:37 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 04:56:37 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] To Pie or To List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010-08-18, at 19:23, Ricky wrote: > Furthermore, if I don't have the > privileges to return an item the return option should be either > removed or grayed out. This is actually a problem in 1.x as well. From secret.argent at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 03:03:23 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 05:03:23 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Please - enough about the CA In-Reply-To: References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> <4C6CA119.2010406@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <02359B9E-20E0-47D6-8DC8-FF3B001AA822@gmail.com> On 2010-08-19, at 04:09, Gareth Nelson wrote: > None of those projects have an agreement that allows proprietary versions I think Qt has LGPL and proprietary licensing now. From open at autistici.org Thu Aug 19 03:21:18 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:21:18 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] =?utf-8?q?Update_Linux_Build_Documentation=2C_pl?= =?utf-8?q?ease=3F?= In-Reply-To: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <9f66fe473f4a85bbb21ed791cf5ae03c@localhost> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:36:32 -0400, Tapple Gao wrote: > Also, the build instructions have a lot of caveats for > standalone builders, which, as someone who has never even been > able to complete a non-standalone build, I am rather confused > by. > > So, I'd like it if someone could update the linux build > documentation, and make it really easy for first-time > (non-standalone) builders to follow: [..] > - seperate out standalone and non-standalone into seperate > documents I have been almost ignoring the Linux-compiling docs for a while but I'd tend to agree with this specific request. Opensource Obscure From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Thu Aug 19 03:33:00 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:33:00 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Workaround for build issues on Gentoo Linux; Using CMake directly instead of develop.py (was: Update Linux Build Documentation, please?) In-Reply-To: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4C6D085C.6010402@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Hi Tapple Welcome to the opensource-dev and to Snowglobe and snowstorm development/testing! On 08/19/2010 04:36 AM, Tapple Gao wrote: > I'm on Gentoo Linux, and the build instructions for Linux [1] have > never worked for me (./develop.py cmake; ./develop.py build). For default (i.e. non-standalone) building on Gentoo, you might require the workaround at User:Michelle2 Zenovka/cmake#Gentoo . (Yes, it were the imprudence folks who documented it. Big thanks to them!) > I've talked with some people on IRC, and I'm now under the > impression that develop.py is rather obsolete, which may be part > of my problem. As far as I know, develop.py isn't required anymore on Linux (I'm not sure about other platforms), but it is still the default way of building, so I wouldn't call it obsolete just yet. (IMHO we should work towards making it obsolete, though.) > However, that doesn't really help me, as I have > no idea how to use cmake. I prefer to use CMake directly. If you want to try that, too, you can find some comprehensive (but maybe partially outdated) documentation at User:Michelle2 Zenovka/cmake and a quick step-by-step reference at Compiling and Patching Snowglobe (Linux) . > Also, the build instructions have a lot of caveats for > standalone builders, which, as someone who has never even been > able to complete a non-standalone build, I am rather confused > by. > > So, I'd like it if someone could update the linux build > documentation, and make it really easy for first-time > (non-standalone) builders to follow: > > - Show how to use cmake rather than develop.py Question to everyone: Are there cases (on Linux) where develop.py is still required? Otherwise I think we can deprecate it (on Linux) easily, by replacing it in the build documentation with the appropriate CMake commands. What about other platforms? Is it always needed, there? > - seperate out standalone and non-standalone into seperate > documents I think when Aleric and others recently revised Compiling the viewer (Linux) , there was a conscious decision to keep both, standalone and non-standalone in a single wiki article, but I'm not sure I remember that correctly. The main problem when separating them will be to keep them in sync when common requirements or common steps change. This could be solved by common transclusions, but those seem to confuse unaware editors. For the moment, the sections that are only relevant for standalone should be clearly marked as such in the section title, so it shouldn't be too difficult to skip over them when they do not apply to you. > As an aside, the Imprudence viewer team has really overhauled > the build process, and as a result, Imprudence is the only > viewer that is actually able to find all my libraries and > complete a build from an svn checkout. I would strongly suggest > you integrate their build changes into the main viewer. Are these changes documented somewhere? Which commits are part of this overhaul? If it isn't too difficult, I'd be willing to apply and test them on my hg repo . (I can only test standalone myself, though, due to 64bit OS.) Pulling them into lindenlab/viewer-development might not be possible due to CA requirements, though. > If there is really going to be more focus on open source, it is > really important to make sure new people like me are able to > compile the viewer from source. ACK cheers Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/1fc1bd0b/attachment.htm From open at autistici.org Thu Aug 19 03:40:31 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:40:31 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Pie menu ideas (was: Re: Open Viewer Development Announcement) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got used to the pie menu and got comfortable with it, but I still think the pie menu is a bit weird for new unexperienced users. The current menu resembles the menu you may find across many applications with large userbases. Overall, I think the current menu is a better solution. A rework of the current menu may improve it further but this should have low priority in relation to other UI issues. As always, providing users with the ability to choose a different system (that is, pie menu) may be ideal - but again, this shouldn't have an high priority. Opensource Obscure From baloo at ursamundi.org Wed Aug 18 12:22:08 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:22:08 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:04:19 -0700, Kelly Linden wrote: > 'Resident' is just the final last name, and is treated specially on new > viewers to be hidden from view when displayed. So new users won't have the choice of picking a last name anymore? Isn't that going to severely limit the number of names possible now? From jessesa at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 04:18:44 2010 From: jessesa at gmail.com (Jesse Barnett) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:18:44 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: baloo198731.resident Plenty of names available. This has absolutely nothing to do with "We listened to our users" as this is not what we asked for. Pyske figured it out in the SLU thread. This is a move to the openID format and this is confirmed when you look at the Display Name wiki page: "This feature is an important step on our social media strategy that will ultimately allow you to connect your inworld identity to other social networks, on an opt-in basis. Again, Display Names and eventually, the connection to social networks, is all about choice." Jesse Barnett On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 3:22 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: > On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:04:19 -0700, Kelly Linden wrote: > > > 'Resident' is just the final last name, and is treated specially on new > > viewers to be hidden from view when displayed. > > So new users won't have the choice of picking a last name anymore? Isn't > that going to severely limit the number of names possible now? > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/75957c8c/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Thu Aug 19 04:20:34 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:20:34 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: Is RegAPI still going to be available with last names or is that being updated too? On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 8:22 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: > On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:04:19 -0700, Kelly Linden wrote: > >> 'Resident' is just the final last name, and is treated specially on new >> viewers to be hidden from view when displayed. > > So new users won't have the choice of picking a last name anymore? ?Isn't > that going to severely limit the number of names possible now? > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From baloo at ursamundi.org Wed Aug 18 15:41:46 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:41:46 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] vehicles got some problem ? References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:39:36 +0900, Rustam Rakhimov wrote: > Hi VW developers [developers are future] > > > I want to ask you question about vehicles > > As I know vehicles got some problem in OpenSim isn't it ? > > so is there any news about Vehicles in Opensim. I want it to run some > car script on OpenSim You're probably better off asking this question over on the the mailing list or forums that are OpenSimulator related. I believe Nebadon Izumi on OSgrid might have some helpful input on the subject over on the OSgrid forums. From laurent.bechir at madonie.org Thu Aug 19 05:42:07 2010 From: laurent.bechir at madonie.org (Laurent Bechir) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:42:07 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Please - enough about the CA In-Reply-To: <02359B9E-20E0-47D6-8DC8-FF3B001AA822@gmail.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> <20100818202723.ea388d93.sldev@free.fr> <4C6CA119.2010406@lindenlab.com> <02359B9E-20E0-47D6-8DC8-FF3B001AA822@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6D269F.4060509@madonie.org> Argent Stonecutter a ?crit : > On 2010-08-19, at 04:09, Gareth Nelson wrote: > >> > None of those projects have an agreement that allows proprietary versions >> > > I think Qt has LGPL and proprietary licensing now. > You're right : http://qt.nokia.com/downloads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/0283c86d/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Thu Aug 19 05:55:30 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:55:30 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] SSH authentication (was: Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 08/18/2010) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C6D29C2.8010803@boroon.dasgupta.ch> [Oz, sorry for the duplicate. I've sent this from a wrong address originally, so the list rejected it.] Hi Oz On 08/19/2010 04:57 AM, Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson) wrote: > Date: Wed Aug 18 > Also available > here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive > > [...] > * > **** > > * > *=== Oz ===* > * > [...] > * > IMPEDIMENTS > > * * > **** > * > (minor) Can't get ssh authentication to > hg.secondlife.com/bitbucket.org > working > * > **** > * > > * > **** > * What exactly isn't working there? Have you followed the steps at http://bitbucket.org/help/UsingSSH ? I think it works fine for me (and others), so let us know if we can help in any way. cheers Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/e3047e57/attachment.htm From zak.escher at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 06:23:58 2010 From: zak.escher at gmail.com (Zak Escher) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:23:58 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Windows Build of Snowstorm (Viewer 2.1.1) Message-ID: I have tried every build of Viewer 2.1.1 since Sunday (8/19/2010) and all have crashed on launch. Is there a proper place to report these issues? -- ----- Zak Escher email: zak.escher at gmail.com Join me in Second Life http://secondlife.com/ss/?u=f76730f9dee0d54e3cc51e29da87373a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/f7c94bb9/attachment.htm From aimee at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 07:14:37 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:14:37 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Windows Build of Snowstorm (Viewer 2.1.1) (LLKDU) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74DA1F15-9540-461D-B7FC-0D45CA58388B@lindenlab.com> That's because of the LLKDU issue that Merov is currently working to fix. You can work around if for now by replacing the llkdu.dll that comes with the development viewer with one from the release viewer. Aimee. On 19 Aug 2010, at 14:23, Zak Escher wrote: > I have tried every build of Viewer 2.1.1 since Sunday (8/19/2010) and all have crashed on launch. Is there a proper place to report these issues? From nickyperian at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 07:48:03 2010 From: nickyperian at yahoo.com (Nicky Perian) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Windows Build of Snowstorm (Viewer 2.1.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <401269.14476.qm@web43508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I had a successful windows, C++ Express 2005, build and the patches are included here. https://NickyP at bitbucket.org/NickyP/viewer-development ________________________________ From: Zak Escher To: opensource-dev Mailing List Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 8:23:58 AM Subject: [opensource-dev] Windows Build of Snowstorm (Viewer 2.1.1) I have tried every build of Viewer 2.1.1 since Sunday (8/19/2010) and all have crashed on launch. Is there a proper place to report these issues? -- ----- Zak Escher email: zak.escher at gmail.com Join me in Second Life http://secondlife.com/ss/?u=f76730f9dee0d54e3cc51e29da87373a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/9f4231d9/attachment.htm From erikba at odysseus.anderson.name Thu Aug 19 08:14:27 2010 From: erikba at odysseus.anderson.name (Erik Anderson) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:14:27 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: Lol, another peanut thrown from the back rows, but doesn't "Compatibility with openID" that mean that we may start seeing "christa534 at facebook.comResident" in a few years? (Note: I am not saying that this has been stated or is acceptable to anyone any visible timeframe and am not trying to start another flamewar on something no one said is going to happen) On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Jesse Barnett wrote: > baloo198731.resident Plenty of names available. > > This has absolutely nothing to do with "We listened to our users" as this > is not what we asked for. Pyske figured it out in the SLU thread. This is a > move to the openID format and this is confirmed when you look at the Display > Name wiki page: > > "This feature is an important step on our social media strategy that will > ultimately allow you to connect your inworld identity to other social > networks, on an opt-in basis. Again, Display Names and eventually, the > connection to social networks, is all about choice." > > Jesse Barnett > > On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 3:22 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: > >> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:04:19 -0700, Kelly Linden wrote: >> >> > 'Resident' is just the final last name, and is treated specially on new >> > viewers to be hidden from view when displayed. >> >> So new users won't have the choice of picking a last name anymore? Isn't >> that going to severely limit the number of names possible now? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/aeff3b3e/attachment.htm From kelly at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 08:27:21 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:27:21 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Jesse Barnett wrote: > baloo198731.resident Plenty of names available. > I just wanted to point out that this theoretical new user's username would be baloo198731, it would not be baloo198731.resident. The 'Resident' isn't really a part of a new user's identity. It is only shown to viewers that do not support display names and legacy LSL script calls - in other words that last name is only there when required for backwards compatibility. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/cd319d78/attachment.htm From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 09:08:44 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:08:44 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Version numbering Message-ID: <97BE9A21-64B9-44F8-ACBD-C2A5C7CC44A5@gmail.com> Now that 2.1.1 has been released, shouldn't nightly builds be labeled 2.1.2? TriloByte Zanzibar From missannotoole at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 09:42:43 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: <634526.49171.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Do I understand you correctly that new accounts can make their name anything including existing account names? ________________________________ From: Kelly Linden To: Jesse Barnett Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com; Baloo Uriza Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 11:27:21 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Jesse Barnett wrote: baloo198731.resident Plenty of names available. > I just wanted to point out that this theoretical new user's username would be baloo198731, it would not be baloo198731.resident. The 'Resident' isn't really a part of a new user's identity. It is only shown to viewers that do not support display names and legacy LSL script calls - in other words that last name is only there when required for backwards compatibility. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/2e4e685a/attachment.htm From makosoft at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 09:43:39 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:43:39 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On 8/19/10, Kelly Linden wrote: > I just wanted to point out that this theoretical new user's username would > be baloo198731, it would not be baloo198731.resident. The 'Resident' isn't > really a part of a new user's identity. It is only shown to viewers that do > not support display names and legacy LSL script calls - in other words that > last name is only there when required for backwards compatibility. > Which has the interesting side-effect that you can't trivially convert from a username to a legacy full name since there are two different possible conversions and no way of telling which is correct without accessing the login database, right? From kelly at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 09:58:36 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:58:36 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <634526.49171.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> <634526.49171.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No. Account names must be unique. No new user can create ann.otoole OR annotoole as a username, that name is taken by you. - Kelly On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Ann Otoole wrote: > Do I understand you correctly that new accounts can make their name > anything including existing account names? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Kelly Linden > *To:* Jesse Barnett > *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com; Baloo Uriza < > baloo at ursamundi.org> > *Sent:* Thu, August 19, 2010 11:27:21 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Jesse Barnett wrote: > >> baloo198731.resident Plenty of names available. >> > > I just wanted to point out that this theoretical new user's username would > be baloo198731, it would not be baloo198731.resident. The 'Resident' isn't > really a part of a new user's identity. It is only shown to viewers that do > not support display names and legacy LSL script calls - in other words that > last name is only there when required for backwards compatibility. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/5795e4ef/attachment-0001.htm From kelly at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 10:03:07 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:03:07 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Aidan Thornton wrote: > On 8/19/10, Kelly Linden wrote: > > I just wanted to point out that this theoretical new user's username > would > > be baloo198731, it would not be baloo198731.resident. The 'Resident' > isn't > > really a part of a new user's identity. It is only shown to viewers that > do > > not support display names and legacy LSL script calls - in other words > that > > last name is only there when required for backwards compatibility. > > > > Which has the interesting side-effect that you can't trivially convert > from a username to a legacy full name since there are two different > possible conversions and no way of telling which is correct without > accessing the login database, right? > > There is no such thing as a legacy full name for non-legacy accounts. We tack on a 'Resident' last name when required for compatibility with viewers that do not understand display names and legacy LSL calls, but it is not a part of their name. But in essence you are correct. You can go from a 'full name' to a 'username' but not as easily the other way - though parsing for a '.' is likely to get you pretty good results. If you have the UUID (which you should in both viewer code and LSL) you can get whichever name you want - username, full name or display name. - Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/dddecb9c/attachment.htm From javajoint at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 10:15:14 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:15:14 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: I'll ask the Lindens a direct question: What will you do to prevent others from using my username as their displayname? I dont care what people do in group tags - that is different. I dont want to see my name (in any form, uppercase, lowercase, with or without dots or spaces, etc.) used as a displayname by anyone. And it's not just a display issue. What happens with chat and im logs? Are they going to only show the displayname? Daniel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/20253396/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Thu Aug 19 10:16:27 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:16:27 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100819191627.c53db7b1.sldev@free.fr> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:04:21 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-08-18 14:14, Aidan Thornton wrote: > > On 8/18/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > >> While there were some good things about the v1 implementation of pie > >> menus, they also had some flaws - such as not opening a submenu centered > >> on the mouse click. > > I actually puzzled over this a bit when I first realised that Second > > Life's pie menus worked this way. Originally, the pie menus worked > > well when you didn't click too close to the edge of the screen but > > didn't actually open under the mouse cursor if you did. Since the > > "More..." item is sensibly always the southmost one, opening new > > submenus centered on the mouse would cause the pie menu to drift down > > the screen until it hit the bottom and caused problems. > > > > Also, opening the submenu at the same location has the nice > > side-effect that the mouse remains over the "More..." option for the > > pie menus that are nested 3 or more levels deep. > > > > What I have been contemplating is how to make it possible to open the > > next layer of a pie menu without moving the mouse at all. Sadly, it'd > > probably break too much from normal UI conventions to be worth doing. > > If I understood him correctly, what Q seemed to think was the right > behavior is: > > * The first mouse-down opens the pie centered on the mouse location, > so no choice is under the mouse > * If the choice is a submenu, each new menu is also centered on the > mouse > > that way, you are never making a choice within the submenu if you > accidentally double click, because the center is never a choice. this > does mean that the nested menus 'creep', but that has the effect that > each nested choice is a 'gesture-like' unique series of clicks. A smarter approach would be to automatically move the cursor itself to the center of the pie menu (without moving the latter to avoid an annoying "drifting" effect) when you click on a sub-menu. However, I never found the fact that the pie menu was not centered on the cursor after a click on a sub-menu item to be an hinderance, since the whole idea about pie menus is that you quickly get your "muscle memory" trained and don't even have to look at the menu any more after you are trained. For example, my "muscles know" that to delete an in-world object I must right click on it, then move south, left click (for "More >"), and move north east and left click again (for Delete). With the new method, I'd simply have to replace "north east" with "east" in my muscle memory (which would make me miss quite a number of clicks at first, since this memory has been trained and used for almost 4 years now, so if you reimplement pie-menus in this new way, I'd appreciate a debug option to prevent the auto-recentering of the cursor)... Regards, Henri. From kelly at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 10:19:35 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:19:35 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Kelly Linden wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Aidan Thornton wrote: > >> On 8/19/10, Kelly Linden wrote: >> > I just wanted to point out that this theoretical new user's username >> would >> > be baloo198731, it would not be baloo198731.resident. The 'Resident' >> isn't >> > really a part of a new user's identity. It is only shown to viewers that >> do >> > not support display names and legacy LSL script calls - in other words >> that >> > last name is only there when required for backwards compatibility. >> > >> >> Which has the interesting side-effect that you can't trivially convert >> from a username to a legacy full name since there are two different >> possible conversions and no way of telling which is correct without >> accessing the login database, right? >> >> > There is no such thing as a legacy full name for non-legacy accounts. We > tack on a 'Resident' last name when required for compatibility with viewers > that do not understand display names and legacy LSL calls, but it is not a > part of their name. But in essence you are correct. You can go from a 'full > name' to a 'username' but not as easily the other way - though parsing for a > '.' is likely to get you pretty good results. If you have the UUID (which > you should in both viewer code and LSL) you can get whichever name you want > - username, full name or display name. > > - Kelly > > I have been corrected. Only 'legacy' names will have a '.'. I was not aware when I responded above that the period is not valid in new user names. So yes, you can parse for a '.' to know if it is a 'legacy' name or a new name. Sorry for the confusion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/7f33ef04/attachment.htm From kadah.coba at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 10:24:19 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:24:19 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100819191627.c53db7b1.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> <20100819191627.c53db7b1.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C6D68C3.9040604@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/19/2010 10:16 AM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > A smarter approach would be to automatically move the cursor itself to > the center of the pie menu (without moving the latter to avoid an > annoying "drifting" effect) when you click on a sub-menu. > > However, I never found the fact that the pie menu was not centered on > the cursor after a click on a sub-menu item to be an hinderance, since > the whole idea about pie menus is that you quickly get your "muscle > memory" trained and don't even have to look at the menu any more after > you are trained. For example, my "muscles know" that to delete an > in-world object I must right click on it, then move south, left click > (for "More >"), and move north east and left click again (for Delete). > With the new method, I'd simply have to replace "north east" with > "east" in my muscle memory (which would make me miss quite a number > of clicks at first, since this memory has been trained and used for > almost 4 years now, so if you reimplement pie-menus in this new way, > I'd appreciate a debug option to prevent the auto-recentering of the > cursor)... Same here. I would impliment pie menus as 2 debug settings, UseLegacyPieMenus and LegacyPieMenusDisableAutoCenter. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMbWjDAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2mucIAIViouN+zGtQJRqsZGdVqK7Z 6j3tIhepm0TTcVaMuBrqijuw0CFifMJwxV8T0uy0U8xEYbPzIyRqJCDsvHGhOUQw WN8PmGhnDKyOOQYSHEKGYEmTFvVlwqQ40SfH5hM3jMNF2zj/w/qPxl2pV2SMON9e 0sl8ew1Hu+DBM1u/+DJDe2dM1Jz3x1EnpjAJUFwLQ7MgZL4JuT4vD96y/Sl6s2eL LZeJieUi6fxW2dXDWABfBcIqyFpRx0Vh78XqC+ZyOn66RcGr3D9Yra8w+rCqLMc0 6owg9RHkzBZXsIpsG1DtZI+ytH0awLuXVv5zz4sGXIi9scQD64UCXxFf2xjdT08= =Iy9d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From marinekelley at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 10:30:39 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:30:39 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6D68C3.9040604@gmail.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> <20100819191627.c53db7b1.sldev@free.fr> <4C6D68C3.9040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: That would be awesome. I know there are reasons behind the removal of the pie menu and its replacement by a well known list menu, but PLEASE I am so much more productive and less frustrated with the old pie menu ! Muscle memory and size of the clickable areas and all that. Simply put with the list menu I have to look where I'm clicking, with the pie menu I don't. It is a huge gain of time. On 19 August 2010 19:24, Kadah wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On 8/19/2010 10:16 AM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > A smarter approach would be to automatically move the cursor itself to > > the center of the pie menu (without moving the latter to avoid an > > annoying "drifting" effect) when you click on a sub-menu. > > > > However, I never found the fact that the pie menu was not centered on > > the cursor after a click on a sub-menu item to be an hinderance, since > > the whole idea about pie menus is that you quickly get your "muscle > > memory" trained and don't even have to look at the menu any more after > > you are trained. For example, my "muscles know" that to delete an > > in-world object I must right click on it, then move south, left click > > (for "More >"), and move north east and left click again (for Delete). > > With the new method, I'd simply have to replace "north east" with > > "east" in my muscle memory (which would make me miss quite a number > > of clicks at first, since this memory has been trained and used for > > almost 4 years now, so if you reimplement pie-menus in this new way, > > I'd appreciate a debug option to prevent the auto-recentering of the > > cursor)... > > Same here. I would impliment pie menus as 2 debug settings, > UseLegacyPieMenus and LegacyPieMenusDisableAutoCenter. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMbWjDAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2mucIAIViouN+zGtQJRqsZGdVqK7Z > 6j3tIhepm0TTcVaMuBrqijuw0CFifMJwxV8T0uy0U8xEYbPzIyRqJCDsvHGhOUQw > WN8PmGhnDKyOOQYSHEKGYEmTFvVlwqQ40SfH5hM3jMNF2zj/w/qPxl2pV2SMON9e > 0sl8ew1Hu+DBM1u/+DJDe2dM1Jz3x1EnpjAJUFwLQ7MgZL4JuT4vD96y/Sl6s2eL > LZeJieUi6fxW2dXDWABfBcIqyFpRx0Vh78XqC+ZyOn66RcGr3D9Yra8w+rCqLMc0 > 6owg9RHkzBZXsIpsG1DtZI+ytH0awLuXVv5zz4sGXIi9scQD64UCXxFf2xjdT08= > =Iy9d > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/53889437/attachment-0001.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Thu Aug 19 10:36:26 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:36:26 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <634526.49171.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201008191936.26982.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Thursday 19 August 2010 schrieb Kelly Linden: > No. Account names must be unique. No new user can create ann.otoole > OR annotoole as a username, that name is taken by you. Can someone else set the DISPLAY NAME to "Lance Corrimal" ??? bye, LC From tateru at taterunino.net Thu Aug 19 10:35:04 2010 From: tateru at taterunino.net (Tateru Nino) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 03:35:04 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <20100819191627.c53db7b1.sldev@free.fr> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4C6B3623.8060409@gmail.com> <4C6C0FFD.7070809@lindenlab.com> <4C6C2EB5.9000903@lindenlab.com> <20100819191627.c53db7b1.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C6D6B48.6070003@taterunino.net> On 20/08/2010 3:16 AM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:04:21 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > >> On 2010-08-18 14:14, Aidan Thornton wrote: >>> On 8/18/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >>>> While there were some good things about the v1 implementation of pie >>>> menus, they also had some flaws - such as not opening a submenu centered >>>> on the mouse click. >>> I actually puzzled over this a bit when I first realised that Second >>> Life's pie menus worked this way. Originally, the pie menus worked >>> well when you didn't click too close to the edge of the screen but >>> didn't actually open under the mouse cursor if you did. Since the >>> "More..." item is sensibly always the southmost one, opening new >>> submenus centered on the mouse would cause the pie menu to drift down >>> the screen until it hit the bottom and caused problems. >>> >>> Also, opening the submenu at the same location has the nice >>> side-effect that the mouse remains over the "More..." option for the >>> pie menus that are nested 3 or more levels deep. >>> >>> What I have been contemplating is how to make it possible to open the >>> next layer of a pie menu without moving the mouse at all. Sadly, it'd >>> probably break too much from normal UI conventions to be worth doing. >> If I understood him correctly, what Q seemed to think was the right >> behavior is: >> >> * The first mouse-down opens the pie centered on the mouse location, >> so no choice is under the mouse >> * If the choice is a submenu, each new menu is also centered on the >> mouse >> >> that way, you are never making a choice within the submenu if you >> accidentally double click, because the center is never a choice. this >> does mean that the nested menus 'creep', but that has the effect that >> each nested choice is a 'gesture-like' unique series of clicks. > A smarter approach would be to automatically move the cursor itself to > the center of the pie menu (without moving the latter to avoid an > annoying "drifting" effect) when you click on a sub-menu. > > However, I never found the fact that the pie menu was not centered on > the cursor after a click on a sub-menu item to be an hinderance, since > the whole idea about pie menus is that you quickly get your "muscle > memory" trained and don't even have to look at the menu any more after > you are trained. For example, my "muscles know" that to delete an > in-world object I must right click on it, then move south, left click > (for "More>"), and move north east and left click again (for Delete). > With the new method, I'd simply have to replace "north east" with > "east" in my muscle memory (which would make me miss quite a number > of clicks at first, since this memory has been trained and used for > almost 4 years now, so if you reimplement pie-menus in this new way, > I'd appreciate a debug option to prevent the auto-recentering of the > cursor)... For a while, I was somewhat spoiled by colour-coded, multi-layered concentric radial menus. A chance to preview the whole menu tree with a little mouse-wiggling before selecting an option. A bit like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6C7jhrvrP14/SCIXQ0vvNFI/AAAAAAAAAJM/cCtvGNWR0co/s400/menu.png -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Thu Aug 19 10:37:27 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:37:27 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? Message-ID: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> is it just my failing eyesight, or is there no "allow create landmark" checkbox in "about land" in 2.1 (snowglobe 2.1.0 r3622) ??? bye, LC From kadah.coba at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 10:53:30 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:53:30 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: <4C6D6F9A.9080703@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/19/2010 10:15 AM, Daniel Smith wrote: > And it's not just a display issue. What happens with chat and im logs? Are > they going to only show the displayname? I have no idea what it will be, but I'm hoping for IMs it will continue to use the username as the filename for the log, and put both names in to the local and group chat logs. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMbW+aAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE26F4H/1bea5ZHVynvhqONBIpFQXKd P9vWqYoLbJD7ILdBPlY3yBcg4BErDiZFRwJAMidL6kEd00M/liOx7HXPLHAHOqQB 8OOtaIBOAuYqMsFzSQEwhJr4C3GqxKU8LTvXRZiSmX0hFBicb++sYYGHAyjulU90 5ozpKVcxl6BNJoLeIyk8IMpq8Ktl2j7vDYRAu6lP0CWR2s3CStQdJ0XkVT47IXhq E6vTLeEq6XM8283/Fraloa1USHQAh0B7wgSJrAkBdAgw1YFAdhT0GLFPIpsMeh2S 3MXrprKYfb7r/8aEglQFaPr4VvU4jIsqN++xYEbq/FwNKpLqIUCFHYa7z0t0I4Q= =n2QA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chess at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 19 10:55:53 2010 From: chess at us.ibm.com (David M Chess) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:55:53 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Marine Kelley : > That would be awesome. I know there are reasons behind the removal of the pie menu and its replacement by a well known list menu, but PLEASE I am so > much more productive and less frustrated with the old pie menu ! Muscle memory and size of the clickable areas and all that. Simply put with the list menu I > have to look where I'm clicking, with the pie menu I don't. It is a huge gain of time. Complete enthusiastic agreement! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/01e2d158/attachment.htm From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Aug 19 11:13:41 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:13:41 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Viewer Development Announcement In-Reply-To: <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> References: <165EA4C2-77E4-4852-8BFC-48DB28157C37@lindenlab.com> <20100816202303.500f4530.sldev@free.fr> <4C6989D9.3090306@lindenlab.com> <4c69debe.8b35dc0a.7864.ffff93b1@mx.google.com> <20100817114451.f310db6a.sldev@free.fr> <20100818123804.f908901c.sldev@free.fr> <4C6BFF32.7000502@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100819181341.GA27230@alinoe.com> On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:41:38AM -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > We still do require a Contribution Agreement, for good and valid reasons I've > explained many times - most notably that it allows us to improve our license in > the future. Had we not required the CA in the past, we would not have been > able to change from GPL to LGPL. A major disadvantage of the CA, however, is that you cannot use ANY of the improvements written by TPV developers. If it were possible to cherry pick the improvements of -say- emerald, then that would boost the usability of the viewer imho. In other cases you can almost speak of obstruction of progress: For example, I'd really like to see support of shared windlight settings. This has already been written and is in operation on certain opensim grids. However, we CANNOT use it! If we want this too (and we do) then we'll have to re-invent the wheel JUST because of this license problem. It's not just the extra time that that will cost, it's also necessarily going to using a different, incompatible format, which is going to be highly annoying for the currently existing implementors and their users. Without the CA, the source code would be TRUELY open in the sense that everyone would be able to use the code from everyone and improve on that. As it is, the Third Party Viewers will base their code on viewer-development and then add extensions that only they can exchange among themselves. Extensions that the users will need at some point, so that they HAVE to use a third party viewer. 'Viewer-development' in itself will no longer be used, except by total noobs who just learned about Second Life and were fooled into thinking that that viewer is usable by reading the "official" Linden Lab webpages (that no doubt will continue to advertise the "official viewer" and the Greatest) until a few weeks later one of their friends convinces them otherwise. -- Carlo Wood From sldev at catznip.com Thu Aug 19 11:15:05 2010 From: sldev at catznip.com (Kitty) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:15:05 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Viewer-external vs viewer-development Message-ID: <7A494C9618AA4C1F8EC8FE7A1DB45769@panther> Sorry if this has already come up, but is there any ETA on when all of viewer-external (*not* Snowglobe) will make it into viewer-development? I.e. the last SVN code drop from 2 days ago changes LLViewerObject::getItemID() to "getAttachedItemID()", and all "childXXX" calls on LLView are replaced with viewp->getChildView("...")->XXX (among other things, but those were easiest to try and look for). Those changes don't seem to exist in viewer-development yet so now we have two disjointed source trees for the main viewer with bits and pieces in one but not the other? *confuzzled* Kitty From kadah.coba at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 11:20:57 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:20:57 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C6D7609.2050207@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8/19/2010 10:37 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > is it just my failing eyesight, or is there no "allow create landmark" > checkbox in "about land" in 2.1 (snowglobe 2.1.0 r3622) ??? It's not there in 2.1.1.208114 either >_>; -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMbXYJAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2x5QH/3DoXA99PN/w0mpcael/ThjB uf3aLh1pw2ZfPh3Pv3P5nksclRRdRGLBZD9hN5BKQAeb3XdhndoAkiuIHD1mMm0f ocks5sWa8RPnsgCuoMs1ukjf3McmPXPROi+uXhlJa76ejEeFe46jnzlyF7CurVkb T39u7ihp66vQFbyDZGqtOqrjyqYVmOuV2JLwUV6g4JNsiWiia/mvB9d7ofLHyqfq 1ldUk6DtNfNAE/QbnuXdX+1bcG6N/5ky9iX3lNWPguyAcmipcL/iS3M2tE/cmQsI UleecWcFbh0CWt2kpXIdY2qc1+rOXe7frx0Iq1IF3zyV0HnOZZoyNsdefS8yKsk= =5LVT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de Thu Aug 19 12:09:07 2010 From: schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de (Michael Schlenker) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:09:07 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <25716A75-CF7B-477C-87D5-4E72EA0912D7@gmail.com> References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> <25716A75-CF7B-477C-87D5-4E72EA0912D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Am 19.08.2010 um 11:51 schrieb Argent Stonecutter: > > On 2010-08-18, at 13:19, Michael Schlenker wrote: >>> Can you elaborate on what kind of RP would require you to be able to set your display name to "Argent Stonecutter" > >> Sure. Anywhere you wanna have uniform appearance, like having a bunch of 'Agent Smith' AVs in black suits to give the >> impression of identical twins or clones. > > That wouldn't be "having the same display name as a user name". > > That would be "having the same display name as another display name". I'm not talking about that. Is anyone talking about that? > Its a special case of the general case, i didn't check but I'm pretty sure 'Agent Smith' is taken by someone. If it is and you had your way it would not be possible to use that name. But lets have another take at this, you want to ban people from using 'Argent Stonecutter' as a display name, fine. How about any homographs of your current SL name, should they also be banned? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack It opens a can of worms. How about a display option in the viewer that can 'highlight' the fact that your display name is the same as your username (different colour, font or an other UI hint). That would prevent many of the imposter issues, as it would be pretty obvious. Maybe an opt-out to deny the use of current usernames as display names would be appropriate, but a general ban to reuse a current username as a display name sounds a bit excessive. Michael From javajoint at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 12:30:03 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:30:03 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> <25716A75-CF7B-477C-87D5-4E72EA0912D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Michael Schlenker wrote: > > > How about a display option in the viewer that can 'highlight' the fact that your display name is the same as your username > (different colour, font or an other UI hint). > That would prevent many of the imposter issues, as it would be pretty obvious. > > Maybe an opt-out to deny the use of current usernames as display names would be appropriate, but a general ban to reuse a current username > as a display name sounds a bit excessive. > I had written earlier about the reverse, make it an opt-in to allow the use of a username as a displayname by others. ?Consider another opt-in feature that gets at privacy: ability to map someone. ?I have to grant that to individuals. ? That's the way it should be. The default situation should be "I have taken a moment to think about the implications of others using my username, and I trust them, and I am fine with that, so I will make the decision to turn it on". I still have not heard a definitive answer as to what gets logged in IM and Chat. Forget the "display" for a moment. ?What do you want to have logged as "Michael Schlenker" that you did not write? -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume From chess at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 19 12:37:38 2010 From: chess at us.ibm.com (David M Chess) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:37:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Daniel Smith : >I still have not heard a definitive answer as to what gets logged in >IM and Chat. >Forget the "display" for a moment. What do you want to have logged as >"Michael Schlenker" >that you did not write? Not to be a wet blanket, but anyone can sign their email "David Chess" right now, or create "David_Chess at foo.nom", or even (if their last name is "Chess" anyway) *name their children* "David Chess", and there's not a thing I can do about it. So the possibility of text with my name on it, that I did not in fact write, is already something that I live with constantly, that we all live with constantly, and that we seem to be able to cope with pretty well. I am also curious about what will get logged in IM and chatlogs, though. Maybe there will be an "include user name in chatlogs" option in Preferences, or something? (Just like there's a switch that includes timestamps now, for instance.) I can see that being useful (maybe as the default, even). Dave Chess / Dale Innis (but not the only person bearing either of those names!) __ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/d672cff2/attachment.htm From javajoint at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 12:43:52 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:43:52 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:37 PM, David M Chess wrote: > > Daniel Smith : > >>I still have not heard a definitive answer as to what gets logged in >>IM and Chat. >>Forget the "display" for a moment. ?What do you want to have logged as >>"Michael Schlenker" >>that you did not write? > > Not to be a wet blanket, but anyone can sign their email "David Chess" right > now, or create "David_Chess at foo.nom", or even (if their last name is "Chess" > anyway) *name their children* "David Chess", and there's not a thing I can > do about it. > Yep, I think we all know this. I sent my first email in 1981... The focus here is identity within SL. We work hard to craft our AVs and our reputations. If you want to use your analogy, you would be the only David_Chess at SomeSLUser.com. Now, do you want someone impersonating that? Because that's the sort of thing I am getting at with the displaynames functionality. cheers, Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume From schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de Thu Aug 19 12:55:27 2010 From: schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de (Michael Schlenker) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:55:27 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> <25716A75-CF7B-477C-87D5-4E72EA0912D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Am 19.08.2010 um 21:30 schrieb Daniel Smith: > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Michael Schlenker > wrote: >> >> >> How about a display option in the viewer that can 'highlight' the fact that your display name is the same as your username >> (different colour, font or an other UI hint). >> That would prevent many of the imposter issues, as it would be pretty obvious. >> >> Maybe an opt-out to deny the use of current usernames as display names would be appropriate, but a general ban to reuse a current username >> as a display name sounds a bit excessive. >> > > The default situation should be "I have taken a moment to think about > the implications > of others using my username, and I trust them, and I am fine with > that, so I will > make the decision to turn it on". > > I still have not heard a definitive answer as to what gets logged in > IM and Chat. > Forget the "display" for a moment. What do you want to have logged as > "Michael Schlenker" > that you did not write? Well 'Michael Schlenker' is common enough that i regularly have issues with the name (and even more so initials) being taken already and even getting emails and stuff because of that. So i do not worry about things getting logged with my name, as i know it happens, and does not create huge troubles, unless some malicious person actively exploits it (or some agency is incompetent like the social registry in germany which messed up my records with the ones of my twin for years). But you look from the wrong direction and construct unrealistic scenarios. 1. If you log things, use the UUID internally, store the display name with it (as it can change) and make it just a display option what is shown, ever other way to implement logging is simply wrong 2. For the UI either make an option so display names that match the legacy username of the AV are highlighted or the opposite, to provide an easy non script based option to verify a legacy username users identity via name alone. 3. Provide an explicit opt-out for those that are seriously worried (typically shop owners, or other 'public figures'). That would pretty much match the typical regulations in RL, at least in germany (don't know enough about US or other law). The fact that your current username is unique is just a coincidence of the LL decision to use that username as a key in their database. Its not a natural law to have a unique name. Michael From marinekelley at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 13:00:32 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:00:32 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> <25716A75-CF7B-477C-87D5-4E72EA0912D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well it must be obvious for any user that anyone they see or hear or receive an IM from is using either a user name or a display name. And by obvious I mean "validated by the server during the transaction", not "forged by another viewer which can pretend to use any user name". In other words, any token of information (visual or textual) is signed with the user name of the agent, and that signature is generated server side. Security must always be server side anyway. The way the receiving viewer interprets those signatures is not important. It could simply enclose a display name into brackets, for instance, or display it in green, or add "this is a display name" after it, or whatever. But the viewer must have a way to clearly distinguish the two names, and to clearly relay the information to the user. On 19 August 2010 21:55, Michael Schlenker wrote: > > Am 19.08.2010 um 21:30 schrieb Daniel Smith: > > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Michael Schlenker > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> How about a display option in the viewer that can 'highlight' the fact > that your display name is the same as your username > >> (different colour, font or an other UI hint). > >> That would prevent many of the imposter issues, as it would be pretty > obvious. > >> > >> Maybe an opt-out to deny the use of current usernames as display names > would be appropriate, but a general ban to reuse a current username > >> as a display name sounds a bit excessive. > >> > > > > > The default situation should be "I have taken a moment to think about > > the implications > > of others using my username, and I trust them, and I am fine with > > that, so I will > > make the decision to turn it on". > > > > I still have not heard a definitive answer as to what gets logged in > > IM and Chat. > > Forget the "display" for a moment. What do you want to have logged as > > "Michael Schlenker" > > that you did not write? > > Well 'Michael Schlenker' is common enough that i regularly have issues with > the name (and even more so initials) being taken > already and even getting emails and stuff because of that. So i do not > worry about things getting logged with my name, > as i know it happens, and does not create huge troubles, unless some > malicious person actively exploits it (or some agency > is incompetent like the social registry in germany which messed up my > records with the ones of my twin for years). > > But you look from the wrong direction and construct unrealistic scenarios. > 1. If you log things, use the UUID internally, store the display name with > it (as it can change) and make it just a display option what is shown, ever > other way to implement > logging is simply wrong > 2. For the UI either make an option so display names that match the legacy > username of the AV are highlighted or the opposite, > to provide an easy non script based option to verify a legacy username > users identity via name alone. > 3. Provide an explicit opt-out for those that are seriously worried > (typically shop owners, or other 'public figures'). > > That would pretty much match the typical regulations in RL, at least in > germany (don't know enough about US or other law). > > The fact that your current username is unique is just a coincidence of the > LL decision to use that username as a key in their database. Its not a > natural law to have a unique name. > > Michael > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/5b9bdfd0/attachment-0001.htm From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Aug 19 13:04:56 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:04:56 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm, JIRA and versions In-Reply-To: <4C6B3B2A.2080905@lindenlab.com> References: <4C6B3B2A.2080905@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100819200456.GB27230@alinoe.com> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 09:45:14PM -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > for clarification...). If correct, I'll start moving JIRAs from SNOW > > to VWR when I see fit. > > That's correct. I can see some inconvenience arising from renaming SNOW's to VWR's. We use 'SNOW-xyz' a lot in (text) files to refer to the archive about it in the jira. I don't think that this link should be lost. In other words, a rename should not make it impossible to find it back under the original SNOW-xyz number. -- Carlo Wood From chess at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 19 13:07:19 2010 From: chess at us.ibm.com (David M Chess) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:07:19 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Daniel Smith : >The focus here is identity within SL. We work hard to craft our AVs >and our reputations. If you want to use your analogy, you would be >the only David_Chess at SomeSLUser.com. Now, do you want someone >impersonating that? Because that's the sort of thing I am getting at >with the displaynames functionality. Well put! I think the shift that is happening here is that we're used to all names in SL being like "user at host.com", which we assume to be relatively reliable. The additon of display names means that there will also be names in SL that are more like what someone puts in their email sig, which we know to be completely unreliable. While it does require a shift of thinking for us oldbies, I don't think that it's all that difficult a shift of thinking, and the advantages in flexibility are significant. Where we do want reliable identities, usernames (the equivalent of "user at host.com") will still be easily accessible. As I see Torley has been busily updating the Wiki page to assure us... :) DC/DI Emperor of Earth (See what I did there? :) ) ___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/adc0f596/attachment.htm From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Aug 19 13:27:34 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:27:34 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] To Pie or To List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100819202734.GC27230@alinoe.com> I think that "Report Abuse" should always be the top-most menu entry in every menu, so that it's easy to find and quick to access. Report first, ask questions later. Why mute or TP away, or HAHAHA just be mature about something, when you can Run to Daddy Linden Lab and Report the suckers!!! On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 05:23:37PM -0700, Ricky wrote: > With the new menu, I've almost reported abuse/returned/etc my own > items. -1. It seems to me a little weird that those options show up > when clicking on something you are both the creator and owner of. > It's still a little weird even if not the creator, but still the -- Carlo Wood From javajoint at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 13:34:46 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:34:46 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: Following up on myself.. On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Daniel Smith wrote: > What will you do to prevent others from using my username as their > displayname? ....> > And it's not just a display issue. What happens with chat and im logs? Are > they going to only show the displayname? From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 13:40:51 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:40:51 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: That document has been recently (pre-viewer-development and hg) updated by me, including adding all the caveats that exist for building standalone. Which part does give you problems? Building on standalone never was easy-- in fact, before my update it was impossible without being guided personally by some guru on IRC. I think it was improved GREATLY though and if you are still not able to compile it then that is certainly not caused by the document being out of date as you seem to suggest (and which you could have seen in the history of it). Aleric On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:36 AM, Tapple Gao wrote: > I'm on Gentoo Linux, and the build instructions for Linux [1] have > never worked for me (./develop.py cmake; ./develop.py build). > I've talked with some people on IRC, and I'm now under the > impression that develop.py is rather obsolete, which may be part > of my problem. However, that doesn't really help me, as I have > no idea how to use cmake. > > Also, the build instructions have a lot of caveats for > standalone builders, which, as someone who has never even been > able to complete a non-standalone build, I am rather confused > by. > > So, I'd like it if someone could update the linux build > documentation, and make it really easy for first-time > (non-standalone) builders to follow: > > - Show how to use cmake rather than develop.py > - seperate out standalone and non-standalone into seperate > documents > > As an aside, the Imprudence viewer team has really overhauled > the build process, and as a result, Imprudence is the only > viewer that is actually able to find all my libraries and > complete a build from an svn checkout. I would strongly suggest > you integrate their build changes into the main viewer. > > If there is really going to be more focus on open source, it is > really important to make sure new people like me are able to > compile the viewer from source. > > [1] Linux build instructions: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) > > -- > Matthew Fulmer (a.k.a. Tapple) > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/d54ce142/attachment.htm From bryon at slearth.com Thu Aug 19 14:30:56 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:30:56 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/19/10 12:09 PM, "Michael Schlenker" wrote: > Am 19.08.2010 um 11:51 schrieb Argent Stonecutter: > >> >> On 2010-08-18, at 13:19, Michael Schlenker wrote: >>>> Can you elaborate on what kind of RP would require you to be able to set >>>> your display name to "Argent Stonecutter" >> >>> Sure. Anywhere you wanna have uniform appearance, like having a bunch of >>> 'Agent Smith' AVs in black suits to give the >>> impression of identical twins or clones. >> >> That wouldn't be "having the same display name as a user name". >> >> That would be "having the same display name as another display name". I'm not >> talking about that. Is anyone talking about that? No one should be talking about that. Display Names checked against other Display Names would be compromising the reasons behind the feature itself. It should of course be allowed to choose existing Display Names. > Its a special case of the general case, i didn't check but I'm pretty sure > 'Agent Smith' is taken by someone. If it is and you > had your way it would not be possible to use that name. You have a point, although I would assume all current Last names were carefully chosen not to imitate that of a superhero, a brand or a famous movie character like "Agent Smith". In the context of CURRENT usernames that is, it shouldn't be an issue or only have a very few exceptions. Futures usernames being more open for such conflicts, with future usernames that would want to be chosen for Role Playing as Display Names. But not doing anything about it other that rely on Abuse Report remedies is not ideal either. The RESI Team is there to handle such issues appropriately. But that does not minimize the occurrence of such issue happening in the first place, making it unpleasant for everyone and possibly causing fraud etc.. and require additional work on our part to file the report... which is not really fast easy and fun. ;P As I conveyed in the blog, it could be just a warning rather than a complete restriction. Such as: "Please be aware that this is a resident's username. Any deceptive attempt using this resident's name is prohibited..." etc in the case of a match. Or simply a text warning always displayed below the Display Name box. While it maybe only an ounce of prevention, it's worth considering as a method of reminding people what the rules are, and that they should think twice about abusing someone's name for deceptive tricks, as well as ease that concern for everyone and minimize incidents (throw-away alt accounts excluded of course, not much to do about those). e.g. We have similar preemptive messages for detected weapon usage in PSG sandboxes which helps educate na?ve newbies about the rules before they get ejected and/or banned, and it is helpful in minimizing griefing cases... Or maybe just start with a log count as to how many times someone tried or used someone else's name, against the number of abuse reports to evaluate whether such concern is validated and supported by data or not. And then assess the need for such warning or restriction using meaningful data, instead of flat out accepting our early assumptions made that it will plague us with issues... CUSTOMER SERVICE TIPS to Lindens when you communicate: It would have been as simple as responding in the blog, that LL will take such concerns into consideration for further reassessment and study possible solutions for it welcoming ideas (as I am giving here), rather than saying that it's already been thought of with the arguments, yet giving the sentiment that it's a final decision, which is what has been perceived. Not by me necessarily, but by many others, which doesn't surprise me. Carefully customer service oriented responses can save you a lot of flaming posts... Just my 2 cents. Cheers Bryon > But lets have another take at this, you want to ban people from using 'Argent > Stonecutter' as a display name, fine. > How about any homographs of your current SL name, should they also be banned? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack > > It opens a can of worms. > > How about a display option in the viewer that can 'highlight' the fact that > your display name is the same as your username > (different colour, font or an other UI hint). > That would prevent many of the imposter issues, as it would be pretty obvious. > > Maybe an opt-out to deny the use of current usernames as display names would > be appropriate, but a general ban to reuse a current username > as a display name sounds a bit excessive. > > Michael From yoz at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 14:48:16 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:48:16 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm, JIRA and versions In-Reply-To: <20100819200456.GB27230@alinoe.com> References: <4C6B3B2A.2080905@lindenlab.com> <20100819200456.GB27230@alinoe.com> Message-ID: On 19 August 2010 13:04, Carlo Wood wrote: > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 09:45:14PM -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > for clarification...). If correct, I'll start moving JIRAs from SNOW > > > to VWR when I see fit. > > > > That's correct. > > I can see some inconvenience arising from renaming SNOW's to VWR's. > We use 'SNOW-xyz' a lot in (text) files to refer to the archive about > it in the jira. I don't think that this link should be lost. > > In other words, a rename should not make it impossible to find it > back under the original SNOW-xyz number. > Movement of a JIRA issue between projects *usually* leaves the old one automatically redirecting to the new one. In other words, all the old links and references should still take you to the right issue. If this isn't happening, let me know. -- Yoz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/5be31237/attachment.htm From baloo at ursamundi.org Thu Aug 19 13:51:21 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:51:21 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Inventory Transfer References: Message-ID: <93i0k7xla8.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:25:05 -0700, Ricky wrote: > Well, she was recently instructed by my dad (an advanced user like > myself) to send him a notecard she was editing. She asked how. My dad > instructed her to "drag it to the IM window." This she knew how to > find. She then complained that it didn't work. This brought me to look > at what she was doing. She was trying to drag the notecard edit window > onto the chat popup to send him the notecard. Sounds like your mom might also be relatively inexperienced with working with subwindows as well. However, the instructions given to her could have been slightly more clear as well; "drag it to the IM window from your inventory" might have worked better. > Because of this, I would like to put forth the suggestion for further > study of allowing the user to drag asset windows (notecards, textures, > etc.) onto the varied existing ways of sending content. (IMs, Profile > pages, etc) How would you differentiate someone trying to reorganize subwindows within a viewer with inventory transfer events, then? I think that problem makes this suggestion entirely unworkable in practice. From oz at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 15:12:15 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:12:15 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Backlog Request: SNOW-766 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C6DAC3F.7060204@lindenlab.com> Aleric - this seems like a perfectly reasonable improvement to include in our general build improvements task for this sprint. If you would please prepare a public clone of viewer-development in which this patch is successfully applied, I'll get it reviewed from there and pulled into viewer-development. Thanks for a very well formulated request. > Status: reviewed by Merov, committed to snowglobe 1.4, 1.5 and 2.1. > > Background: > > When developing many viewers in parallel (and snowstorm with it's many > clones that need to be checked out > won't change that), it becomes necessary to automate certain things > with scripts. One of the things those > scripts need to know is the current build directory. > > However, the build directory is a function of the configuration of the > viewer. In order to remove human > maintenance (and possible errors therein) it is desirable to have an > automated way to convert configuration > to build directory name. > > I wrote such scripts and they "break down" with the current > viewer-development: > > hikaru:/usr/src/secondlife/viewers/snowstorm/test-20100818>source > env.source > Error: unknown subcommand 'printbuilddirs' > (run 'develop.py --help' for help) > CONFIGURE_OPTS = "--type=Release -m64 --standalone" > CMAKE_DEFS = "-DLL_TESTS:BOOL=ON -DPACKAGE:BOOL=ON > -DCMAKE_VERBOSE_MAKEFILE:BOOL=ON" > CMAKE_PREFIX_PATH = "/sl:/sl/usr" > CMAKE_INCLUDE_PATH = > "/usr/src/secondlife/llqtwebkit/install2/include:/usr/src/secondlife/viewers/snowstorm/test-20100818/include:/sl/usr/include" > CMAKE_LIBRARY_PATH = "/usr/src/secondlife/llqtwebkit/install2/lib:" > > Sprint plan: > > Port this patch to viewer-development for the next sprint and test it. > > Before patch: > > hikaru:/usr/src/secondlife/viewers/snowstorm/test-20100818/linden/indra>./develop.py > --type=Release -m64 --standalone printbuilddirs > setting DISTCC_DIR to > /usr/src/secondlife/viewers/snowstorm/test-20100818/linden/indra/.distcc > Error: unknown subcommand 'printbuilddirs' > (run 'develop.py --help' for help) > > After patch: > > This should print (on this box): viewer-linux-x86_64-release > > > > Please let me know if anything is wrong or missing in this post, > Aleric > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/887c5b56/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Thu Aug 19 15:13:42 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 00:13:42 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008200013.42894.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Thursday 19 August 2010 schrieb Bryon Ruxton: > As I conveyed in the blog, it could be just a warning rather than a > complete restriction. Such as: "Please be aware that this is a > resident's username. Any deceptive attempt using this resident's > name is prohibited..." etc in the case of a match. Or simply a > text warning always displayed below the Display Name box. And of course anyone who would otherwise set the display name to the name of a well known creator for fraudulent reasons would be absolutely deterred by that. Besides, there's no point to checking against other people's display names, or even real login names, as long as unicode is allowed. Are you aware of the fact that there are unicode characters that look exactly the same but have different "numbers" and therefor are different as far as software comparison algorythms are concerned? > > Maybe an opt-out to deny the use of current usernames as display > > names would be appropriate, but a general ban to reuse a current > > username as a display name sounds a bit excessive. Totally not. It should even trigger an automated AR for impersonating, together with a warning message sent to the current holder of the login name... "johndoe1234567890 tried to set his display name to your login name. the resi team has been notified." I have a shop where I sell design sails for sailboats. What would keep someone from setting his display name to my name, and hang out there offering "custom, one of a kind design sails for your boat, for 2500L cash in advance" to people, and then run with the money? And I would be the one on the receiving end of the abuse reports. There would be a market for a totally new kind of security devices... "kick anyone out who has a display name that matches the following pattern(s) and NOT has a login name that matches one out of this list" like i said. worms. in cans. by the dozen. bye, LC From oz at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 15:13:57 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:13:57 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] SSH authentication In-Reply-To: <4C6D29C2.8010803@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C6D29C2.8010803@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <4C6DACA5.8040102@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-19 8:55, Boroondas Gupte wrote: >> * >> **** >> * >> IMPEDIMENTS >> >> * * >> **** >> * >> (minor) Can't get ssh authentication to >> hg.secondlife.com/bitbucket.org >> working >> * >> **** >> * >> >> * >> **** >> * > What exactly isn't working there? Have you followed the steps at > http://bitbucket.org/help/UsingSSH ? I think it works fine for me (and > others), so let us know if we can help in any way. I think it was actually some error in how I'd constructed the key I was using. Aimee walked me through what she was doing, and now I've got it working. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/64a10518/attachment-0001.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 15:14:45 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:14:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Version numbering In-Reply-To: <97BE9A21-64B9-44F8-ACBD-C2A5C7CC44A5@gmail.com> References: <97BE9A21-64B9-44F8-ACBD-C2A5C7CC44A5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6DACD5.5050307@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-19 12:08, Trilo Byte wrote: > Now that 2.1.1 has been released, shouldn't nightly builds be labeled 2.1.2? Yes, probably... still getting that sorted out. From oz at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 15:22:03 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:22:03 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Viewer-external vs viewer-development In-Reply-To: <7A494C9618AA4C1F8EC8FE7A1DB45769@panther> References: <7A494C9618AA4C1F8EC8FE7A1DB45769@panther> Message-ID: <4C6DAE8B.1030101@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-19 14:15, Kitty wrote: > Sorry if this has already come up, but is there any ETA on when all of > viewer-external (*not* Snowglobe) will make it into viewer-development? > > I.e. the last SVN code drop from 2 days ago changes > LLViewerObject::getItemID() to "getAttachedItemID()", and all "childXXX" > calls on LLView are replaced with viewp->getChildView("...")->XXX (among > other things, but those were easiest to try and look for). > > Those changes don't seem to exist in viewer-development yet so now we have > two disjointed source trees for the main viewer with bits and pieces in one > but not the other? *confuzzled* I don't have any more specific timetable than "by the end of this sprint" We're working to get all internal Linden repositories converted to the new structure, and as a side effect will pick up these discrepencies. From marc at inworlddesigns.com Thu Aug 19 15:42:48 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:42:48 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Pie menu ideas (was: Re: Open Viewer Development Announcement) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Opensource Obscure wrote: --snip-- > > As always, providing users with the ability to choose a different > system (that is, pie menu) may be ideal - but again, this shouldn't > have an high priority. I agree with that. Maybe a simple debug setting or a checkbox or dropdown box to choose Pie Menu or Standard Menu From open at autistici.org Thu Aug 19 16:05:47 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:05:47 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] =?utf-8?q?Update_Linux_Build_Documentation=2C_pl?= =?utf-8?q?ease=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: Aleric, you made a great job with your documention effort! https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) now this page is surely more useful than in the past. However, it's still a very long document (not your fault, there's very old stuff there) and I think we can make it even easier to read, to use, and to mantain as well. So I propose to split the docs: "building for standalone" vs. "building non-standalone". Just because otherwise it's too long. As a first step toward this I created this version of the page: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Opensource_Obscure/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) There I removed anything related to Standalone, plus paragraph #10 and following, as there is a note that says "Everything below is probably outdated" (we can add that stuff later if/when verified). Feel free to edit. If we think this is a good idea we can complete the work, then split the docs and create a separate page, for example https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_a_standalone_viewer_(Linux) Opensource Obscure From baloo at ursamundi.org Thu Aug 19 15:28:10 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:28:10 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:15:14 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: > I'll ask the Lindens a direct question: > > What will you do to prevent others from using my username as their > displayname? I'm going to hazard to guess the answer is "nothing." If anything, this brings SL into better parity with the real world, where many people might have the same name. From javajoint at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 16:53:18 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:53:18 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: > On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:15:14 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: > > > I'll ask the Lindens a direct question: > > > > What will you do to prevent others from using my username as their > > displayname? > > I'm going to hazard to guess the answer is "nothing." If anything, this > brings SL into better parity with the real world, where many people might > have the same name. > > Thanks for playing. Just sign up last week? Based on the feedback here and on the blog, so many people are upset about this very question that the Lindens will pretty much have to address the issue. The documentation trail on this is a mile long. If they do nothing, situations will occur that will end up in court. Bet on it. 4 year SL'er, Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/dff6292c/attachment.htm From cg at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 17:00:39 2010 From: cg at lindenlab.com (CG Linden) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:00:39 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: There is method to our madness... I put up a wiki page explaining our automated build process at: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Automated_Build_System Now I wouldn't mind ripping develop.py apart and spreading the guts into the top level build.sh script, but don't have time to do that right now... Instead, I'd rather publish a usable version of the shared build scripts so that everyone can repro our internal builds. -- cg On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Opensource Obscure wrote: > > Aleric, you made a great job with your documention effort! > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) > now this page is surely more useful than in the past. However, > it's still a very long document (not your fault, there's very old > stuff there) and I think we can make it even easier > to read, to use, and to mantain as well. > > So I propose to split the docs: "building for standalone" vs. > "building non-standalone". Just because otherwise it's too long. > > As a first step toward this I created this version of the page: > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Opensource_Obscure/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) > > There I removed anything related to Standalone, plus > paragraph #10 and following, as there is a note that says > "Everything below is probably outdated" (we can add that > stuff later if/when verified). Feel free to edit. > > If we think this is a good idea we can complete the work, > then split the docs and create a separate page, for example > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_a_standalone_viewer_(Linux) > > Opensource Obscure > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/fc23f016/attachment.htm From mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com Thu Aug 19 17:08:07 2010 From: mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com (mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:08:07 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com><0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> Seems like twitter has a pretty good solution. Display names are unique. And your login account isn't public so you have better security. Default your display name to your current SL name. After that people can request the name they want. As far as scripts, chat, everything else, that use your text version of your name, they all change on other systems and we get by. Mystical _____ From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Smith Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:53 PM To: Baloo Uriza; opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:15:14 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: > I'll ask the Lindens a direct question: > > What will you do to prevent others from using my username as their > displayname? I'm going to hazard to guess the answer is "nothing." If anything, this brings SL into better parity with the real world, where many people might have the same name. Thanks for playing. Just sign up last week? Based on the feedback here and on the blog, so many people are upset about this very question that the Lindens will pretty much have to address the issue. The documentation trail on this is a mile long. If they do nothing, situations will occur that will end up in court. Bet on it. 4 year SL'er, Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/c4b1742d/attachment-0001.htm From mike.dickson at hp.com Thu Aug 19 17:26:13 2010 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 00:26:13 +0000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2F4A799@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> CG, I get not found errors when trying to access the hg repository for the build system. Is this repository not operational yet or is the link incorrect in the doc. Thx! Mike From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of CG Linden Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:01 PM To: Opensource Obscure Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? There is method to our madness... I put up a wiki page explaining our automated build process at: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Automated_Build_System Now I wouldn't mind ripping develop.py apart and spreading the guts into the top level build.sh script, but don't have time to do that right now... Instead, I'd rather publish a usable version of the shared build scripts so that everyone can repro our internal builds. -- cg On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Opensource Obscure > wrote: Aleric, you made a great job with your documention effort! https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) now this page is surely more useful than in the past. However, it's still a very long document (not your fault, there's very old stuff there) and I think we can make it even easier to read, to use, and to mantain as well. So I propose to split the docs: "building for standalone" vs. "building non-standalone". Just because otherwise it's too long. As a first step toward this I created this version of the page: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Opensource_Obscure/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) There I removed anything related to Standalone, plus paragraph #10 and following, as there is a note that says "Everything below is probably outdated" (we can add that stuff later if/when verified). Feel free to edit. If we think this is a good idea we can complete the work, then split the docs and create a separate page, for example https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_a_standalone_viewer_(Linux) Opensource Obscure _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/06ef6d9a/attachment.htm From chess at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 19 17:38:57 2010 From: chess at us.ibm.com (David M Chess) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:38:57 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Daniel Smith : > Thanks for playing. Just sign up last week? That's rude, unnecessary, and arrogant. I joined in 2006, and I think Baloo is quite likely correct. There's no call to insult someone just because they dare to disagree with you. Let's try to keep it civil. DC/DL ___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/b7faa371/attachment.htm From kf6kjg at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 17:48:52 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:48:52 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] To Pie or To List In-Reply-To: <20100819202734.GC27230@alinoe.com> References: <20100819202734.GC27230@alinoe.com> Message-ID: Either way, I still see it as of little use with objects I own or am the creator of! As regards the order for objects for which I am neither creator nor owner I have no suggestion. The current order might make sense. Then again, Do I ever have permission to /Delete/ someone else's objects? Not so far as I know. /Return/ would be the only available option, and then only if I have edit privs on the owner's goods, am in a group that allows me to return other's goods on the given parcel, or am the landowner. This is starting to sound like it's time for a list: * I am Owner ** "Report Abuse" is deactivated (Doesn't make sense!) ** "Block" is active (I may want to mute my own objects after all!) ** "Return" is deactivated ** "Delete" is active * I am Creator but not Owner and I have no privileges granted ** "Report Abuse" is deactivated (NOTE) ** "Block" is active ** "Return" is deactivated ** "Delete" is deactivated * I have been either granted Edit on the Owner's goods, am a member of a group that the land is deeded to, the group I'm a part of has return privs, or I am the land owner: ** "Report Abuse" is active ** "Block" is active ** "Return" is active ** "Delete" is deactivated (Unless for some reason land owners can delete objects.... This I am unsure of. Typically I've seen them return items.) * Otherwise (Not Creator, Not Owner, No Privs) ** "Report Abuse" is active ** "Block" is active ** "Return" is deactivated ** "Delete" is deactivated (NOTE) There may be a use case here for "Report Abuse" to be active on an object I am the creator of, but not the owner: If the object is modifiable, it's parts may have been used to make something offensive. I'd rather keep the option open in this case. Order may be largely a preference, but I think that "Delete" should be topmost, if available as an option. However this may create another usability issue if the order of items in the menu follows a logical, but seemingly random to beginners, order depending on context: A first timer would have difficulty knowing beforehand which item will be in what position in the menu. So the order may need to be fixed, just having unusable elements grayed out and deactivated in certain contexts. Ricky Cron Stardust On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Carlo Wood wrote: > I think that "Report Abuse" should always be the top-most menu > entry in every menu, so that it's easy to find and quick to access. > > Report first, ask questions later. > > Why mute or TP away, or HAHAHA just be mature about something, > when you can Run to Daddy Linden Lab and Report the suckers!!! > > On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 05:23:37PM -0700, Ricky wrote: >> With the new menu, I've almost reported abuse/returned/etc my own >> items. -1. ?It seems to me a little weird that those options show up >> when clicking on something you are both the creator and owner of. >> It's still a little weird even if not the creator, but still the > > -- > Carlo Wood > From kf6kjg at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 17:56:29 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:56:29 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Inventory Transfer In-Reply-To: <93i0k7xla8.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> References: <93i0k7xla8.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: Very good question, and was the reason for my note bout accidental inventory transfers. The solution I alluded to was to pop up an "are you sure" style dialog box. However, I hate those with a passion. So I'm fishing for more optimal solutions. It is possible there may be no good solution to this difficulty, but at least it will have been discussed, and may spawn other improvements or be revisited later. Ricky Cron Stardust On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:25:05 -0700, Ricky wrote: > >> Well, she was recently instructed by my dad (an advanced user like >> myself) to send him a notecard she was editing. ?She asked how. ?My dad >> instructed her to "drag it to the IM window." ?This she knew how to >> find. ?She then complained that it didn't work. ?This brought me to look >> at what she was doing. ?She was trying to drag the notecard edit window >> onto the chat popup to send him the notecard. > > Sounds like your mom might also be relatively inexperienced with working > with subwindows as well. ?However, the instructions given to her could > have been slightly more clear as well; "drag it to the IM window from > your inventory" might have worked better. > >> Because of this, I would like to put forth the suggestion for further >> study of allowing the user to drag asset windows (notecards, textures, >> etc.) onto the varied existing ways of sending content. (IMs, Profile >> pages, etc) > > How would you differentiate someone trying to reorganize subwindows > within a viewer with inventory transfer events, then? ?I think that > problem makes this suggestion entirely unworkable in practice. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From esbee at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 18:13:11 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson)) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:13:11 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 08/19/2010 Message-ID: <5AE9A561-B898-4AF0-A7C6-649A0D29D072@lindenlab.com> Date: Thu Aug 19 Daily Scrum Summary also available online: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive == GENERAL NOTES == Q is OOO for the next few days Remember to update the Sprint Backlog! == DAILY SCRUM == === Aimee === PAST Staged some more build fixes from Snowglobe into aimee_linden/viewer-development-import Merged into to viewer-development Talked to open sourcers on #opensl some about working with Mercurial and bitbucket FUTURE Pull in some more Snowglobe fixes Merge from aimee_linden/viewer-development-import to viewer-development Rinse and repeat Get weird sense of deja-vu that I wrote this same update yesterday. IMPEDIMENTS None. === Tofu === OOO === Oz === PAST New wiki page on 'Developing Viewer Code' https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Develop_Viewer_Code Build notices from canonical build of viewer-development to list Office Hours FUTURE Process discussions with Esbee More wiki improvements Set up experimental repository Post archive of yesterdays OH Add transcriber to this scrum meeting space IMPEDIMENTS (minor) Can't get ssh authentication to hg.secondlife.com/bitbucket.org workin === Merov === PAST Snowstorm sync: done the Windows part (task completed) LLKDU in viewer-development: investigated the new build.sh and differences with opensrc-build.sh previously used in Snowglobe. Snowglobe 1.4 release: fixed llkdu issue with svn rev 3623 FUTURE LLKDU in viewer-development: current use of -DINSTALL_PROPRIETARY:BOOL=ON is a hack that needs to go as it's not available for non Lindens. Will work on modifying build.sh to use the kdu-binaries packages. IMPEDIMENTS None === Q === OOO === Esbee === PAST Didn't get to any bug triage today, will reserve afternoon for this today Sent out reminder to team about using the sprint backlog Responded to more SLCC and Snowstorm blog feedback Chatted with Oz and Dessie about versioning and development/project viewer bug reporting Talked to Howard and Q about ways to gather Resident feedback and ideas FUTURE Jira bug triage for Sprint 2 Assist team with Scrum tasks Continue to follow up on SLCC and Snowstorm blog feedback Continue Jira EXT cleanup Start adding Resident feedback/ideas/user stories to the Snowstorm Backlog on a new tab Document idea submission process and worm with those ideas Sketch undockable/dockable sidebar design and send to XD team for a quick review IMPEDIMENTS None === Paul === PAST BUG EXT-8405 (Clicking an attachment switches the Add More inventory to Flat view) In progress 95%. FUTURE BUG EXT-8405 (Clicking an attachment switches the Add More inventory to Flat view) IMPEDIMENTS none note: vacation request 09.13-09.24 === Andrew === PAST Pushed tickets that passed review Task VWR-20703(Research bottom bar code) Investigation more or less complete Started writing test code for moving buttons Cloned and built viewer-development FUTURE Task VWR-20702(Snowstorm Sprint 2: As a User who's customized the bottom bar of the Viewer UI, I also want to be able to control the order of the buttons as they appear in the UI.) IMPEDIMENTS none === Vadim === PAST Task VWR-20724 (Missing underlined shortcuts in some top-level menus): Implemented, committed. Task VWR-20734 (Changed parcel properties to default to "on" in the location bar): Implemented, committed. Helping web site developers to investigate a problem with viewer requiring user to upgrade to Premium account before buying a parcel on the mainland. FUTURE Discuss proposed commit process Proceed with Sprint #2 tasks. IMPEDIMENTS What to do with tickets we no longer work on? How to pass them to QA ? === Sergey === PAST Bug (EXT-7325) My Landmarks: "Show on Map" context menu item is enabled while "Map" button is disabled for selected landmark. Pushed fix. Bug (EXT-8697) My Landmarks: 'Cut' item should be greyed out in folder's context menu Pushed fix. Bug (VWR-20694) Snowstorm Sprint 2: As a User, I want to undock tabs from the Viewer sidebar so that I can control what tabs are displayed and organize them on my screen in any way I want like I could do in 1.23. WIP. Researching Side Bar, Dockable Floater code. FUTURE Bug (VWR-20694) Snowstorm Sprint 2: As a User, I want to undock tabs from the Viewer sidebar so that I can control what tabs are displayed and organize them on my screen in any way I want like I could do in 1.23. IMPEDIMENTS none Vacation Sept 6-9 === Anya === PAST QA coordination GH investigation review of sprint tasks FUTURE figure out new process for jira figure out process for Hg get answers to questions listed as impediments IMPEDIMENTS (actually, just questions) In Sprint 2 backlog, PE currently has: Undocking sidebar tabs (VWR-20694). Reordering bottom bar buttons via D&D (VWR-20702). Navigating menus with underlined shortcuts (VWR-20722). 1) was Vadim's understanding correct that these tasks are for PE? yes, that looks reasonable, however tasks should not be assigned until someone is ready to start work on them. 2) should we be taking on anything else? if we run out of tasks, we can take others off the backlog 3) we don't have access to change assignee for VWR tasks. Esbee will update VWR assignee until we get the new jira (est. Sept 7) 4) VWR uses a slightly different workflow - for example, unlike EXT, there's no "Revew completion" state, which means we'll have to come up with some new creative way to mark status for code reviews. August 23rd is a holiday in Odessa. marked in sprint backlog Anya has jury duty next week. Hopefully, checking in and not getting called in will take care of my civic duty. marked in sprint backlog -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/bdbffcc5/attachment-0001.htm From teravus at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 18:55:45 2010 From: teravus at gmail.com (Teravus Ovares) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:55:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Inventory Transfer In-Reply-To: References: <93i0k7xla8.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: One way to eliminate the possibility of accidental transfers is a mandatory confirmation window on the transfer when it's done via dragging an edit window. When the item is dragged, a confirmation box wouldn't be necessary.. just when dragging the window. On the other hand, I don't know of any other interface that creates actions upon dragging a window. Regards Teravus On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Ricky wrote: > Very good question, and was the reason for my note bout accidental > inventory transfers. > > The solution I alluded to was to pop up an "are you sure" style dialog > box. ?However, I hate those with a passion. ?So I'm fishing for more > optimal solutions. ?It is possible there may be no good solution to > this difficulty, but at least it will have been discussed, and may > spawn other improvements or be revisited later. > > Ricky > Cron Stardust > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: >> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:25:05 -0700, Ricky wrote: >> >>> Well, she was recently instructed by my dad (an advanced user like >>> myself) to send him a notecard she was editing. ?She asked how. ?My dad >>> instructed her to "drag it to the IM window." ?This she knew how to >>> find. ?She then complained that it didn't work. ?This brought me to look >>> at what she was doing. ?She was trying to drag the notecard edit window >>> onto the chat popup to send him the notecard. >> >> Sounds like your mom might also be relatively inexperienced with working >> with subwindows as well. ?However, the instructions given to her could >> have been slightly more clear as well; "drag it to the IM window from >> your inventory" might have worked better. >> >>> Because of this, I would like to put forth the suggestion for further >>> study of allowing the user to drag asset windows (notecards, textures, >>> etc.) onto the varied existing ways of sending content. (IMs, Profile >>> pages, etc) >> >> How would you differentiate someone trying to reorganize subwindows >> within a viewer with inventory transfer events, then? ?I think that >> problem makes this suggestion entirely unworkable in practice. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From kf6kjg at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 19:18:27 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:18:27 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Mac Build Failing Message-ID: I've pulled rev 11450 (tip at the moment), then cd'd into indra ran develop.py and the compile failed. More info on procedures I used after the system specs. Hardware Overview: Model Name: Mac mini aluminum Model Identifier: Macmini4,1 Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo Processor Speed: 2.66 GHz Number Of Processors: 1 Total Number Of Cores: 2 L2 Cache: 3 MB Memory: 8 GB Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz System Software Overview: System Version: Mac OS X 10.6.4 (10F2025) Kernel Version: Darwin 10.4.1 Boot Volume: System Drive Boot Mode: Normal Secure Virtual Memory: Not Enabled 64-bit Kernel and Extensions: No Procedure 1: (It defaulted to RelWithDebInfo) hg pull hg up cd indra ./develop.py configure ./develop.py build Error: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ** BUILD FAILED ** The following build commands failed: package: PhaseScriptExecution "CMake PostBuild Rules" /Users/ricky/Development/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/newview/SecondLife.build/RelWithDebInfo/package.build/Script-1C6E7B01C6E7B01C6E7B0000.sh (1 failure) Error: the command 'xcodebuild' exited with status 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Procedure 2: (Switching to Release. Took longer, failed anyway.) hg pull hg up cd indra ./develop.py -t Release configure ./develop.py -t Release build Error: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ** BUILD FAILED ** The following build commands failed: INTEGRATION_TEST_llsecapi: Ld /Users/ricky/Development/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/sharedlibs/Release/Release/INTEGRATION_TEST_llsecapi normal i386 PhaseScriptExecution "CMake PostBuild Rules" /Users/ricky/Development/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/newview/SecondLife.build/Release/INTEGRATION_TEST_llsecapi.build/Script-1BC14D01BC14D01BC14D0000.sh package: PhaseScriptExecution "CMake PostBuild Rules" /Users/ricky/Development/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/newview/SecondLife.build/Release/package.build/Script-1C6E9E01C6E9E01C6E9E0000.sh (3 failures) Error: the command 'xcodebuild' exited with status 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - What should I do? Is this a known issue? Ricky Cron Stardust From secret.argent at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 19:20:16 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:20:16 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <282192C3-FC4A-4B19-A047-CED2DF3A4134@uni-oldenburg.de> <1758A0FF-8E9D-41C1-B34D-5A692B1D6B83@uni-oldenburg.de> <25716A75-CF7B-477C-87D5-4E72EA0912D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2010-08-19, at 14:09, Michael Schlenker wrote: > Its a special case of the general case, i didn't check but I'm pretty sure 'Agent Smith' is taken by someone. If it is and you > had your way it would not be possible to use that name. Yes. So? The homograph issue needs to be addressed in any case, so I'm not going to try and solve it here. From bryon at slearth.com Thu Aug 19 19:42:37 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:42:37 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/19/10 7:20 PM, "Argent Stonecutter" wrote: > On 2010-08-19, at 14:09, Michael Schlenker wrote: >> Its a special case of the general case, i didn't check but I'm pretty sure >> 'Agent Smith' is taken by someone. If it is and you >> had your way it would not be possible to use that name. > > Yes. So? Argent, Keep in mind once the feature is implemented: One will be able to choose "Captain America" with captain.america becoming his unique username. And it wouldn't be fair to prevent anyone else to RP "Captain America" as his display name. So if there is a restriction it can only be on current/old "First.Last" usernames, which are unlikely to create such conflicts. From bryon at slearth.com Thu Aug 19 20:10:03 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:10:03 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? Correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/19/10 7:20 PM, "Argent Stonecutter" wrote: > On 2010-08-19, at 14:09, Michael Schlenker wrote: >> Its a special case of the general case, i didn't check but I'm pretty sure >> 'Agent Smith' is taken by someone. If it is and you >> had your way it would not be possible to use that name. > > Yes. So? Argent, Keep in mind once the feature is implemented: One will be able to choose "Captain America" with captain.america becoming his unique username. And it wouldn't be fair to prevent anyone else to RP "Captain America" as his display name. So if there is a restriction it can only be on current/old "First.Last" usernames, which are unlikely to create such conflicts. CORRECTION: Actually the username will be "captainamerica" not captain.america, my bad. Which makes it impossible to even know where the space was past the first Display Name change, since it won't be saved. You can't choose to restrict "Capt Ainamerica" or "Captaina Merica" on the basis of that username. It becomes completely impractical at that stage... That said it'd be nice if earlier residents get the benefit of having their "nromal" legacy name protected as a plus for the inconvenience caused... From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 20:45:48 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:45:48 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] newview should be a diff lisc Message-ID: if you really wanna help out the community and have advancement tale newview seperate it and allow it to contain changes that can be closed source. the rest of the projects/libs should be lgpl. just my two cents. Anyone wanting to have a closed source viewer has to basically rewrite newview at this time. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/d22635ae/attachment.htm From baloo at ursamundi.org Thu Aug 19 21:51:04 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:51:04 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:53:18 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Baloo Uriza > wrote: > >> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:15:14 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: >> >> > I'll ask the Lindens a direct question: >> > >> > What will you do to prevent others from using my username as their >> > displayname? >> >> I'm going to hazard to guess the answer is "nothing." If anything, >> this brings SL into better parity with the real world, where many >> people might have the same name. >> >> > Thanks for playing. Just sign up last week? Given that my last name is Uriza and Display Names aren't rolled out yet to my knowledge, I believe it's clear I did not. > If they do nothing, situations will occur that will end up in court. > Bet on it. Sure, but even if that's the case, I can't fathom a single situation (other than a Linden employee abusing Display Names) that would cause the Lindens to be named as a defendant (and not get laughed out of court by the judge). From baloo at ursamundi.org Thu Aug 19 21:53:02 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:53:02 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:42:37 -0700, Bryon Ruxton wrote: > On 8/19/10 7:20 PM, "Argent Stonecutter" > wrote: > >> On 2010-08-19, at 14:09, Michael Schlenker wrote: >>> Its a special case of the general case, i didn't check but I'm pretty >>> sure 'Agent Smith' is taken by someone. If it is and you had your way >>> it would not be possible to use that name. >> >> Yes. So? > Argent, Keep in mind once the feature is implemented: One will be able > to choose "Captain America" with captain.america becoming his unique > username. Actually, not quite, based on what I saw in Torley's video. I could change my display name to "Captain America," but my unique username would still be baloo.uriza. From tateru.nino at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 22:33:25 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:33:25 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: <4C6E13A5.2060407@gmail.com> On 20/08/2010 2:51 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: > On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:53:18 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Baloo Uriza >> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:15:14 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: >>> >>>> I'll ask the Lindens a direct question: >>>> >>>> What will you do to prevent others from using my username as their >>>> displayname? >>> I'm going to hazard to guess the answer is "nothing." If anything, >>> this brings SL into better parity with the real world, where many >>> people might have the same name. >>> >>> >> Thanks for playing. Just sign up last week? > Given that my last name is Uriza and Display Names aren't rolled out yet > to my knowledge, I believe it's clear I did not. > >> If they do nothing, situations will occur that will end up in court. >> Bet on it. > Sure, but even if that's the case, I can't fathom a single situation > (other than a Linden employee abusing Display Names) that would cause the > Lindens to be named as a defendant (and not get laughed out of court by > the judge). Ah, perhaps I can help there. /Marvel vs NCsoft/ (docket: CV 04-9253RGKPLAX, 9 March, 2005, California district court). Marvel (back before they had Disney's legion of undead lawyers) sued NCsoft over City of Heroes, because the character creator allowed users to create avatars that had similar likenesses to or similar names to Marvel trademarks. NCsoft eventually capitulated and settled. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/f288a435/attachment-0001.htm From baloo at ursamundi.org Thu Aug 19 22:16:36 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:16:36 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Open Inventory Transfer References: <93i0k7xla8.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:56:29 -0700, Ricky wrote: > Very good question, and was the reason for my note bout accidental > inventory transfers. > > The solution I alluded to was to pop up an "are you sure" style dialog > box. However, I hate those with a passion. So I'm fishing for more > optimal solutions. It is possible there may be no good solution to this > difficulty, but at least it will have been discussed, and may spawn > other improvements or be revisited later. Yeah, molly guards tend to be a stopgap for a bad design decision firmly engrained in the interface. A good example of too many molly guards would be Outlook, where people ignore them to the point of just clicking yes to a dialogue effectively asking them "Are you sure you want to send that obscene joke to all 2500 employees in the company?" (I have seen this happen, it caused Exchange to just about die under the pressure, and the resulting drama eventually became known long after the source was terminated for epic fail of schadenfreude proportions at that company.) If it /has/ to work in a way that could become a gun, then it's better to let the user shoot themselves in the foot than it is to become annoying ("rm" comes to mind as as a gun, and one that grows in size depending on the target and flags used; the GUI equivalent uses a trash folder as a safety in most environments). But, given that there's already several workable way to transfer items between avatars, I'm not sure we need to be turning subwindows into guns. ;o) From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Thu Aug 19 23:22:11 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:22:11 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <201008200822.11430.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Friday 20 August 2010 schrieb CG Linden: > There is method to our madness... > I put up a wiki page explaining our automated build process at: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Automated_Build_System > > Now I wouldn't mind ripping develop.py apart and spreading the guts > into the top level build.sh script, NOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo.... develop.py is a way to actually build... if i try the toplevel build.sh from the hg repo, all it does is complain about not having the top level build scripts which are in a hg repo that is not accessible from the outside world... 0.o bye, LC From cg at lindenlab.com Thu Aug 19 23:32:35 2010 From: cg at lindenlab.com (CG Linden) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 23:32:35 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: <201008200822.11430.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> <201008200822.11430.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: Of course I'd only do that -after- providing the shared build scripts. -- cg On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Friday 20 August 2010 schrieb CG Linden: > > There is method to our madness... > > I put up a wiki page explaining our automated build process at: > > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Automated_Build_System > > > > Now I wouldn't mind ripping develop.py apart and spreading the guts > > into the top level build.sh script, > > NOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo.... > > > develop.py is a way to actually build... > > if i try the toplevel build.sh from the hg repo, all it does is > complain about not having the top level build scripts which are in a > hg repo that is not accessible from the outside world... 0.o > > > > bye, > LC > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100819/9fbb8759/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Thu Aug 19 23:38:44 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:38:44 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. Message-ID: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Is it just me or did the lindens stop replying to this topic? ok, lets try this again. Here are some distict questions, and I would like to see distinct "yes" or "no" answers from linden labs employees, and I would like it a lot if, in case no one of the lindens on the list can answer my questions in such a disticnt manner, the questions be forwarded to someone who can. 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use my true avatar name as their display name? 2. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone from using a display name that might be different from my true avatar name but for all visual verification looks like it, given how there are unicode characters that have a different code but look like regular characters? 3. Will there be procedures in place to prevent the case where someone uses a copyrighted name of a fictional character (like, for example, "Mickey Mouse" or "Clark Kent") as their display name? 4. If the answer to any of the above is not a clear and loud yes: Will there be procedures in place to protect the original holder of any true avatar name from legal damages after someone used their name as their display name for fraudulent uses? bye, LC From tateru.nino at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 23:44:47 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:44:47 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> Forwarding your questions through the PR channels, Lance. Although, from the documentation provided by the Lab so far, the answer to question one is 'no'. On 20/08/2010 4:38 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Is it just me or did the lindens stop replying to this topic? > > > ok, lets try this again. > > Here are some distict questions, and I would like to see distinct > "yes" or "no" answers from linden labs employees, and I would like it > a lot if, in case no one of the lindens on the list can answer my > questions in such a disticnt manner, the questions be forwarded to > someone who can. > > > 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use my > true avatar name as their display name? > > 2. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone from using a > display name that might be different from my true avatar name but for > all visual verification looks like it, given how there are unicode > characters that have a different code but look like regular > characters? > > 3. Will there be procedures in place to prevent the case where someone > uses a copyrighted name of a fictional character (like, for example, > "Mickey Mouse" or "Clark Kent") as their display name? > > 4. If the answer to any of the above is not a clear and loud yes: Will > there be procedures in place to protect the original holder of any > true avatar name from legal damages after someone used their name as > their display name for fraudulent uses? > > bye, > LC > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- Tateru Nino Contributing Editor http://massively.com/ From baloo at ursamundi.org Thu Aug 19 23:52:20 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 23:52:20 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> <4C6E13A5.2060407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4al1k7xrvq.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:33:25 +1000, Tateru Nino wrote: > Marvel (back before they had Disney's legion of undead lawyers) sued > NCsoft over City of Heroes, because the character creator allowed users > to create avatars that had similar likenesses to or similar names to > Marvel trademarks. NCsoft eventually capitulated and settled. Sure, but that was NCsoft, not some fan of NCsoft. From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Aug 20 00:22:30 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:22:30 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> Message-ID: <201008200922.30441.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Friday 20 August 2010 08:44:47 Tateru Nino wrote: > Forwarding your questions through the PR channels, Lance. Although, > from the documentation provided by the Lab so far, the answer to > question one is 'no'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiding_and_abetting ??? > On 20/08/2010 4:38 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > > Is it just me or did the lindens stop replying to this topic? > > > > > > ok, lets try this again. > > > > Here are some distict questions, and I would like to see distinct > > "yes" or "no" answers from linden labs employees, and I would like it > > a lot if, in case no one of the lindens on the list can answer my > > questions in such a disticnt manner, the questions be forwarded to > > someone who can. > > > > > > 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use my > > true avatar name as their display name? > > > > 2. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone from using a > > display name that might be different from my true avatar name but for > > all visual verification looks like it, given how there are unicode > > characters that have a different code but look like regular > > characters? > > > > 3. Will there be procedures in place to prevent the case where someone > > uses a copyrighted name of a fictional character (like, for example, > > "Mickey Mouse" or "Clark Kent") as their display name? > > > > 4. If the answer to any of the above is not a clear and loud yes: Will > > there be procedures in place to protect the original holder of any > > true avatar name from legal damages after someone used their name as > > their display name for fraudulent uses? > > > > bye, > > LC > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges From open at autistici.org Fri Aug 20 01:08:13 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:08:13 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:44:47 +1000, Tateru Nino wrote: > Forwarding your questions through the PR channels, Lance. Although, > from the documentation provided by the Lab so far, the answer to > question one is 'no'. a few email messages ago, Kelly replied to Ann Otoole: "No new user can create ann.otoole OR annotoole as a username, that name is taken by you" Isn't this the point of question one? Questions 2-3 are not new. Not new are stories of users abusing account names by exploiting similarity between 'l' and "I" - or some other letters. The font choice is to blame in such a case, and this has been reported to PJIRA. Nothing new. Question 4 seems even naive if I get it right - Legal protections? Is this that's being asked? I'm not aware of other online service providers who put procedures in place to protect their users from fraudulent use. Can we name some? Thanks. If you're looking for legal protection try registering your avatar name as a trademark, as other SL users did. > On 20/08/2010 4:38 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: >> Is it just me or did the lindens stop replying to this topic? It is just you: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-August/002649.html (or maybe I'm missing some rule about how fast Lindens must reply) Opensource Obscure >> ok, lets try this again. >> >> Here are some distict questions, and I would like to see distinct >> "yes" or "no" answers from linden labs employees, and I would like it >> a lot if, in case no one of the lindens on the list can answer my >> questions in such a disticnt manner, the questions be forwarded to >> someone who can. >> >> >> 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use my >> true avatar name as their display name? >> >> 2. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone from using a >> display name that might be different from my true avatar name but for >> all visual verification looks like it, given how there are unicode >> characters that have a different code but look like regular >> characters? >> >> 3. Will there be procedures in place to prevent the case where someone >> uses a copyrighted name of a fictional character (like, for example, >> "Mickey Mouse" or "Clark Kent") as their display name? >> >> 4. If the answer to any of the above is not a clear and loud yes: Will >> there be procedures in place to protect the original holder of any >> true avatar name from legal damages after someone used their name as >> their display name for fraudulent uses? >> >> bye, >> LC >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> From open at autistici.org Fri Aug 20 01:11:49 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:11:49 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] =?utf-8?q?display_names_=3D_the_end_of_1=2Ex_vie?= =?utf-8?q?wers=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:53:18 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: > >> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:15:14 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: >> >> > I'll ask the Lindens a direct question: >> > >> > What will you do to prevent others from using my username as their >> > displayname? >> >> I'm going to hazard to guess the answer is "nothing." If anything, this >> brings SL into better parity with the real world, where many people might >> have the same name. >> >> > Thanks for playing. Just sign up last week? Based on the feedback here > and > on the blog, so many people are upset about this very question that the > Lindens will pretty much have to address the issue. The documentation > trail > on this is a mile long. If they do nothing, situations will occur that > will > end up in court. Bet on it. > > 4 year SL'er, Daniel Actually, questions SL users are upset about .. very rarely end up in court. 4 year SL'er, Opensource From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Aug 20 01:18:44 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:18:44 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> Message-ID: <201008201018.44615.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Friday 20 August 2010 10:08:13 Opensource Obscure wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:44:47 +1000, Tateru Nino > > wrote: > > Forwarding your questions through the PR channels, Lance. Although, > > from the documentation provided by the Lab so far, the answer to > > question one is 'no'. > > a few email messages ago, Kelly replied to Ann Otoole: > > "No new user can create ann.otoole OR annotoole as a username, > that name is taken by you" > > Isn't this the point of question one? NO. my point is this: my "true avatar name" is Lance Corrimal so will there be anything PREVENTING (not just putting something like "we ask you pretty please do not ..." in the FAQ) others from using that as theit DISPLAY NAME ??? bye, LC From open at autistici.org Fri Aug 20 01:23:00 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:23:00 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] =?utf-8?q?display_names_=3D_the_end_of_1=2Ex_vie?= =?utf-8?q?wers=3F?= In-Reply-To: <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com><0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> Message-ID: <14f4ba27e815d8d8c45e748de6df9934@localhost> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:08:07 -0400, wrote: > Seems like twitter has a pretty good solution. Display names are unique. > And your login account isn't public so you have better security. Are you sure? As far as I know, things are quite different: - login account (that Twitter calls "Username") is public - in my case, Username = "oobscure" - full name (properly "Name") in my case is "Opensource Obscure" - in your case, Name = Username = "MysticalDemina" - other people publicly use my Username to "mention" me ("@oobscure") - Twitter website and 3rd party apps show these names in various ways - you can change both Username and Name in any moment - by changing your Username, your Twitter URL changes too Twitter fake personalities indeed exist and that's why Twitter also implemented the "Verified name" thing, that implies an identity verification process. Opensource Obscure From open at autistici.org Fri Aug 20 01:31:28 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:31:28 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <201008201018.44615.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> <201008201018.44615.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:18:44 +0200, Lance Corrimal wrote: > On Friday 20 August 2010 10:08:13 Opensource Obscure wrote: >> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:44:47 +1000, Tateru Nino >> >> wrote: >> > Forwarding your questions through the PR channels, Lance. Although, >> > from the documentation provided by the Lab so far, the answer to >> > question one is 'no'. >> >> a few email messages ago, Kelly replied to Ann Otoole: >> >> "No new user can create ann.otoole OR annotoole as a username, >> that name is taken by you" >> >> Isn't this the point of question one? > > NO. > my point is this: > my "true avatar name" is Lance Corrimal so will there be anything > PREVENTING > (not just putting something like "we ask you pretty please do not ..." in > the > FAQ) others from using that as theit DISPLAY NAME ??? I think computer systems exist that are advanced enough to block such a request ;-) I guess they would work like the existing system, that blocks you if you try to register an account with an existing combination of First and Last name. Additionally, this system would also check for further combinations of existing First and Last name. That is, LanceCorrimal won't be accepted, Lance.Corrimal won't be accepted, Opensource.Obscure won't be accepted, etc In the current registration process you don't find a Linden kindly asking you not to use existing names. There's a system filter at work, that has been probably modified in order to support the new system. Opensource Obscure From stickman at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 01:37:38 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:37:38 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> <201008201018.44615.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: >> my "true avatar name" is Lance Corrimal so will there be anything >> PREVENTING others from using that as theit DISPLAY NAME ??? > LanceCorrimal won't be accepted, > Lance.Corrimal won't be accepted, > Opensource.Obscure won't be accepted, etc Yeah, but he said display name, not username. The "username" (what you register for) needs to be unique. But everything I'm seeing about the display name says it's gotta be 31 characters, and that's the only strict limitation it seems to have. For me, I'll turn on "show username" in preferences. That'll solve all my problems. And when someone comes to me after having been swindled, I'll tell them to do the same. After a time or two, they may decide it's worth turning on. Stickman From open at autistici.org Fri Aug 20 01:40:38 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:40:38 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] To Pie or To List In-Reply-To: References: <20100819202734.GC27230@alinoe.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:48:52 -0700, Ricky wrote: > Either way, I still see it as of little use with objects I own or am > the creator of! > > As regards the order for objects for which I am neither creator nor > owner I have no suggestion. The current order might make sense. Then > again, Do I ever have permission to /Delete/ someone else's objects? > Not so far as I know. /Return/ would be the only available option, > and then only if I have edit privs on the owner's goods, am in a group > that allows me to return other's goods on the given parcel, or am the > landowner. > > This is starting to sound like it's time for a list: > * I am Owner > ** "Report Abuse" is deactivated (Doesn't make sense!) > ** "Block" is active (I may want to mute my own objects after all!) > ** "Return" is deactivated > ** "Delete" is active > * I am Creator but not Owner and I have no privileges granted > ** "Report Abuse" is deactivated (NOTE) > ** "Block" is active > ** "Return" is deactivated > ** "Delete" is deactivated > * I have been either granted Edit on the Owner's goods, am a member of > a group that the land is deeded to, the group I'm a part of has return > privs, or I am the land owner: > ** "Report Abuse" is active > ** "Block" is active > ** "Return" is active > ** "Delete" is deactivated (Unless for some reason land owners can > delete objects.... This I am unsure of. Typically I've seen them > return items.) > * Otherwise (Not Creator, Not Owner, No Privs) > ** "Report Abuse" is active > ** "Block" is active > ** "Return" is deactivated > ** "Delete" is deactivated > > (NOTE) There may be a use case here for "Report Abuse" to be active on > an object I am the creator of, but not the owner: If the object is > modifiable, it's parts may have been used to make something offensive. > I'd rather keep the option open in this case. > > Order may be largely a preference, but I think that "Delete" should be > topmost, if available as an option. However this may create another > usability issue if the order of items in the menu follows a logical, > but seemingly random to beginners, order depending on context: A first > timer would have difficulty knowing beforehand which item will be in > what position in the menu. So the order may need to be fixed, just > having unusable elements grayed out and deactivated in certain > contexts. If our aim is to make the menu lighter, cleaner and simpler to read, especially for a newbie, I'd prefer to completely hide those entries from the menu. Grayed and deactivated entries are still being read and their meaning is processed by the brain, so it's only a partial semplification. If the problem is only that one risks to return or abuse-report her stuff, I find it to be a very small and low-priority problem, as both those features have a confirmation window. Personally, I think Delete should be in a submenu and it should NOT be easily available, as we want to avoid it being triggered by error. Opensource Obscure From bryon at slearth.com Fri Aug 20 01:43:07 2010 From: bryon at slearth.com (Bryon Ruxton) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:43:07 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/19/10 9:53 PM, "Baloo Uriza" wrote: > On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:42:37 -0700, Bryon Ruxton wrote: > >> On 8/19/10 7:20 PM, "Argent Stonecutter" >> wrote: >> >>> On 2010-08-19, at 14:09, Michael Schlenker wrote: >>>> Its a special case of the general case, i didn't check but I'm pretty >>>> sure 'Agent Smith' is taken by someone. If it is and you had your way >>>> it would not be possible to use that name. >>> >>> Yes. So? >> Argent, Keep in mind once the feature is implemented: One will be able >> to choose "Captain America" with captain.america becoming his unique >> username. > > Actually, not quite, based on what I saw in Torley's video. I could > change my display name to "Captain America," but my unique username would > still be baloo.uriza. Of course it will. Please read my second email (the correction). Your username won't change, I said new users, sigh. From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Aug 20 01:47:04 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:47:04 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201018.44615.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <201008201047.04098.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Friday 20 August 2010 10:31:28 Opensource Obscure wrote: > I think computer systems exist that are advanced enough to > > block such a request ;-) I guess they would work like the frankly, I am not asking what you think or guess. this thread was supposed to get a clear and distinct statement from the lindens. > In the current registration process you don't find a Linden this is NOT, i repeat NOT about the registration process. this is about preventing people from changing their DISPLAY NAME LATER to someone else's true avatar name. made myself clear? bye, LC From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Fri Aug 20 01:48:03 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:48:03 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] (was: To Pie or To List) In-Reply-To: References: <20100819202734.GC27230@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <4C6E4143.2060908@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 08/20/2010 02:48 AM, Ricky wrote: > This is starting to sound like it's time for a list: > [...] Overall, very reasonable list. (Though I'm not sure users with edit rights on the object's owner's objects should be the same category as users having return rights on the land. Aren't there some differences in what they can do?) > * I am Creator but not Owner and I have no privileges granted > ** "Report Abuse" is deactivated (NOTE) > ** "Block" is active > ** "Return" is deactivated > ** "Delete" is deactivated > [...] > > (NOTE) There may be a use case here for "Report Abuse" to be active on > an object I am the creator of, but not the owner: If the object is > modifiable, it's parts may have been used to make something offensive. > I'd rather keep the option open in this case. Actually, this even applies when the object was modifiable when the original creator gave it away but isn't anymore when he right-clicks it. (Later editors of the object might have disabled that permission.) > Order may be largely a preference, but I think that "Delete" should be > topmost, if available as an option. However this may create another > usability issue if the order of items in the menu follows a logical, > but seemingly random to beginners, order depending on context: A first > timer would have difficulty knowing beforehand which item will be in > what position in the menu. So the order may need to be fixed, just > having unusable elements grayed out and deactivated in certain > contexts. Order should definitely be fixed, just unavailable entries (and those that cannot make sense in the respective context) disabled. Even long time users might not always be aware of their creatorship/ownership/permission relation to an object they right-click, so changing menu entry order depending on that would indeed be very confusing. cheers Boroondas From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Aug 20 01:49:36 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:49:36 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Friday 20 August 2010 10:37:38 Stickman wrote: > For me, I'll turn on "show username" in preferences. That'll solve all > my problems. ditto, but i have doubts about the "solve all my problems" part.... unicode. 'nuff said. > And when someone comes to me after having been swindled, > I'll tell them to do the same. After a time or two, they may decide > it's worth turning on. IF they actually come to you and not just simply file AR against you... bye, LC From stickman at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 02:00:35 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 02:00:35 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: > ditto, but i have doubts about the "solve all my problems" part.... unicode. > 'nuff said. Well, periods can't be put into the new usernames (Kelly said so earlier). So it's a problem for new accounts where unicode is used to cheat them. But new accounts can't copy old accounts without a period. Stickman From baloo at ursamundi.org Fri Aug 20 01:35:19 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:35:19 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> <201008200922.30441.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <7br1k7x16u.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:22:30 +0200, Lance Corrimal wrote: > On Friday 20 August 2010 08:44:47 Tateru Nino wrote: >> Forwarding your questions through the PR channels, Lance. Although, >> from the documentation provided by the Lab so far, the answer to >> question one is 'no'. > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiding_and_abetting ??? Common carrier. From tateru.nino at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 02:11:26 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:11:26 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> Message-ID: <4C6E46BE.7030808@gmail.com> On 20/08/2010 6:08 PM, Opensource Obscure wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:44:47 +1000, Tateru Nino > wrote: >> Forwarding your questions through the PR channels, Lance. Although, >> from the documentation provided by the Lab so far, the answer to >> question one is 'no'. > > a few email messages ago, Kelly replied to Ann Otoole: > > "No new user can create ann.otoole OR annotoole as a username, > that name is taken by you" > > Isn't this the point of question one? No, Kelly's answer was about account names. Lance's question was about whether a Display Name could be the same (for varying values of the same) as an Account Name. > > Questions 2-3 are not new. > Not new are stories of users abusing account names by exploiting > similarity between 'l' and "I" - or some other letters. The font > choice is to blame in such a case, and this has been reported to > PJIRA. Nothing new. > > Question 4 seems even naive if I get it right - Legal > protections? Is this that's being asked? > I'm not aware of other online service providers who put > procedures in place to protect their users from fraudulent use. > Can we name some? Thanks. > > If you're looking for legal protection try registering your > avatar name as a trademark, as other SL users did. > > >> On 20/08/2010 4:38 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: >>> Is it just me or did the lindens stop replying to this topic? > It is just you: > https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-August/002649.html > > (or maybe I'm missing some rule about how fast Lindens must reply) > > Opensource Obscure > > >>> ok, lets try this again. >>> >>> Here are some distict questions, and I would like to see distinct >>> "yes" or "no" answers from linden labs employees, and I would like it >>> a lot if, in case no one of the lindens on the list can answer my >>> questions in such a disticnt manner, the questions be forwarded to >>> someone who can. >>> >>> >>> 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use my >>> true avatar name as their display name? >>> >>> 2. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone from using a >>> display name that might be different from my true avatar name but for >>> all visual verification looks like it, given how there are unicode >>> characters that have a different code but look like regular >>> characters? >>> >>> 3. Will there be procedures in place to prevent the case where someone >>> uses a copyrighted name of a fictional character (like, for example, >>> "Mickey Mouse" or "Clark Kent") as their display name? >>> >>> 4. If the answer to any of the above is not a clear and loud yes: Will >>> there be procedures in place to protect the original holder of any >>> true avatar name from legal damages after someone used their name as >>> their display name for fraudulent uses? >>> >>> bye, >>> LC >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From tateru.nino at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 02:13:54 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:13:54 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <7br1k7x16u.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6E245F.4030200@weblogsinc.com> <201008200922.30441.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <7br1k7x16u.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> Message-ID: <4C6E4752.4070002@gmail.com> On 20/08/2010 6:35 PM, Baloo Uriza wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:22:30 +0200, Lance Corrimal wrote: > >> On Friday 20 August 2010 08:44:47 Tateru Nino wrote: >>> Forwarding your questions through the PR channels, Lance. Although, >>> from the documentation provided by the Lab so far, the answer to >>> question one is 'no'. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiding_and_abetting ??? > Common carrier. There's a strong case that the Lab no longer has common carrier status, due to frequent, unprompted exercises of editorial control (though it might be seeking to regain it). Either way, though - not really a topic for this particular list. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Aug 20 02:53:44 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:53:44 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <201008201153.44382.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Friday 20 August 2010 11:00:35 Stickman wrote: > > ditto, but i have doubts about the "solve all my problems" part.... > > unicode. 'nuff said. > > Well, periods can't be put into the new usernames (Kelly said so > earlier). So it's a problem for new accounts where unicode is used to > cheat them. But new accounts can't copy old accounts without a period. > > Stickman I am not talking about usernames. I am talking about someone creating any random throwaway user account, then setting their DISPLAY NAME to "Stickman Ingman", trusting that enough people are stupid enough not to look at the real username and compare it with yours. bye LC From stickman at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 03:03:39 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 03:03:39 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <201008201153.44382.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201153.44382.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: > I am talking about someone creating any random throwaway user account, then > setting their DISPLAY NAME to "Stickman Ingman", trusting that enough people > are stupid enough not to look at the real username and compare it with yours. Yep. I believe this is totally possible for people to do. The FAQs says it's against TOS to do so for the sake of impersonating someone else. But as far as I know there is no technical limitation preventing someone from doing so. I'm willing to accept the possibility of troubles it will bring because of the freedom it offers in exchange. If you aren't, you'll have to make some pretty compelling arguments that convinces LL that the freedom isn't worth it, or can be preserved through some other method. Convincing me doesn't need to be on your todo list. As a side note, I see where you're coming from. In another world, one with a higher density of matchstick men, I'd agree with you. I think LL would, too. Stickman From marinekelley at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 03:15:12 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:15:12 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201153.44382.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: The damage done to the reputation of a well known resident can be immeasurable. It would be irresponsible of LL to let someone impersonate someone else without giving any way to let the other people around to see CLEARLY the difference between a user name and a display name. No amount of ToS waving and legal threatening is going to change that because once the damage is done, it is too late. It is CAPITAL that a display name CANNOT be mistaken with a user name, no matter how clever the owner of the display name is. On 20 August 2010 12:03, Stickman wrote: > > I am talking about someone creating any random throwaway user account, > then > > setting their DISPLAY NAME to "Stickman Ingman", trusting that enough > people > > are stupid enough not to look at the real username and compare it with > yours. > > Yep. I believe this is totally possible for people to do. The FAQs > says it's against TOS to do so for the sake of impersonating someone > else. But as far as I know there is no technical limitation preventing > someone from doing so. I'm willing to accept the possibility of > troubles it will bring because of the freedom it offers in exchange. > If you aren't, you'll have to make some pretty compelling arguments > that convinces LL that the freedom isn't worth it, or can be preserved > through some other method. Convincing me doesn't need to be on your > todo list. > > As a side note, I see where you're coming from. In another world, one > with a higher density of matchstick men, I'd agree with you. I think > LL would, too. > > Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/528fc8be/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 03:24:31 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 03:24:31 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201153.44382.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 3:15 AM, Marine Kelley wrote: > damage is done, it is too late. It is CAPITAL that a display name CANNOT be > mistaken with a user name, no matter how clever the owner of the display > name is. You make a good argument. How about a solution? Changing color is one. Might be easy enough. I don't know if LL would accept it. Changing another property of the name, be it font, size, position, etc, may be another solution. Font probably not. Feel free to come up with other solutions on how to avoid mistaking a display name with a username. I believe LL's purpose is to make display names seamless. So it needs to be as unobtrusive as possible. It also needs to be as simple to implement as possible. The easier the solution, the more likely LL can just drop it in and test it without losing time. Good luck! Stickman From marinekelley at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 03:42:00 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:42:00 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201153.44382.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: That's not my job, I am a customer in LL's standpoint, I don't work for them. I already talked about possible ways to distinguish a display name from a user name, for example by putting the display name into brackets in chatlogs and offline IMs (which are plain text and html respectively), while using a different color than for user names on the chat and IM while in world (which is comparable to rich text)/ There are just plenty of ways. What I insist on is that the information "this name is a display name" must come from the server, not from the sending viewer. That's the important part. On 20 August 2010 12:24, Stickman wrote: > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 3:15 AM, Marine Kelley > wrote: > > damage is done, it is too late. It is CAPITAL that a display name CANNOT > be > > mistaken with a user name, no matter how clever the owner of the display > > name is. > > You make a good argument. > > How about a solution? > > Changing color is one. Might be easy enough. I don't know if LL would > accept it. > > Changing another property of the name, be it font, size, position, > etc, may be another solution. Font probably not. > > Feel free to come up with other solutions on how to avoid mistaking a > display name with a username. I believe LL's purpose is to make > display names seamless. So it needs to be as unobtrusive as possible. > It also needs to be as simple to implement as possible. The easier the > solution, the more likely LL can just drop it in and test it without > losing time. > > Good luck! > > Stickman > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/7a4f5ecb/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 04:11:04 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:11:04 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010-08-19, at 21:42, Bryon Ruxton wrote: > Argent, Keep in mind once the feature is implemented: > One will be able to choose "Captain America" > with captain.america becoming his unique username. > And it wouldn't be fair to prevent anyone else to RP "Captain America" as > his display name. So pick a different name. It's not a great hardship. Legitimate writers and artists have had to deal with this problem since, like, Captain America was created (no, long before that). It's a trademarked name. I mean, technically, you'd need to get Marvel's permission to have Captain America as your username, or to have a role-play based on it. Seriously, I don't see the problem. "That name's taken" is something people have had to deal with since the Romans had to call THEIR war-god Mars instead of Ares. From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Aug 20 04:23:46 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:23:46 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008201323.46643.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> On Friday 20 August 2010 13:11:04 Argent Stonecutter wrote: > role-play the point about display names being great for RPers is failing anyways, because of the "one change per week" restriction... how many roleplayers do you know in SL that do not do ANYTHING else, and only play ONE rp? bye, LC From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 20 04:45:19 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:45:19 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Any Email Containing Disply Name in The Subjet Message-ID: <002101cb405d$2a504170$7ef0c450$@net> This morning I woke up to check my email to find there was a lot of OpenSource email and I thought kewl look like there are some discussions of either issues with building the viewer or maybe even about a new feture request/porting request, but NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I wake up to find people STILL arguing about the display name! TO me that is not a discussion that should be carried on in this list. There in the past 24-72 hours have been the following: 1. 80 emails with the subject - display names = the end of 1.x viewers? 2. 20 emails with the subject - Display names, again And frankly that discussion I think does not belong on this list! This list is for discussion of OpenSource SOFTWARE issues related to the VIEWER not the discussion of what is displayed in the viewer(unless it is a rendering issue). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/85f3fcda/attachment.htm From foxsanyosuke at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 04:51:21 2010 From: foxsanyosuke at gmail.com (GridView / FoxSan) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:51:21 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Any Email Containing Disply Name in The Subjet In-Reply-To: <002101cb405d$2a504170$7ef0c450$@net> References: <002101cb405d$2a504170$7ef0c450$@net> Message-ID: That's quite a large font you are using x.X 2010/8/20 WolfPup Lowenhar > This morning I woke up to check my email to find there was a lot of > OpenSource email and I thought kewl look like there are some discussions of > either issues with building the viewer or maybe even about a new feture > request/porting request, but > > NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO > > I wake up to find people STILL arguing about the display name! > > TO me that is not a discussion that should be carried on in this list. > > > > There in the past 24-72 hours have been the following: > > 1. 80 emails with the subject ? display names = the end of 1.x viewers? > > 2. 20 emails with the subject ? Display names, again > > > > And frankly that discussion I think does not belong on this list! > > > > This list is for discussion of OpenSource SOFTWARE issues related to the > VIEWER not the discussion of what is displayed in the viewer(unless it is a > rendering issue). > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/03949484/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 05:09:09 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 05:09:09 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Any Email Containing Disply Name in The Subjet In-Reply-To: References: <002101cb405d$2a504170$7ef0c450$@net> Message-ID: > That's quite a large font you are using x.X You're doing it wrong. WolfPup Lowenhar wrote: > NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO My, grandmother! That's such a large font you have! Stickman From mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com Fri Aug 20 06:02:20 2010 From: mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com (mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:02:20 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <14f4ba27e815d8d8c45e748de6df9934@localhost> References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com><0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> <14f4ba27e815d8d8c45e748de6df9934@localhost> Message-ID: <526D9AE04BCB45819DC3DA5B9369068A@TWEEDY64> I guess I am sure. Username is unique, you have to request it. No two people will have the same user name. Sure people can fake it, but no two people will have the same one at the same time. And it is possible one person will use a name for a while then someone else will use that name. With all the email regarding this not sure I am following what will be done but I suggest we assign our current SL name to the username and after that let people request a new one if it isn't being used. My name is available and can be changed any time, it is not unique. It is informational. My email is used to log into my twitter account and is not shared publicly which I think is a more secure way to do things because it is harder for people to figure out how I log into the account. In SL we tell everyone what your account name is. Sure people fake things, so thanks for the feedback but not sure what your point is. Seems SL could do a name verification process like Twitter. I think the main thing about twitter is I have never been confused between username and display name. This seems similar to the needs of SL, so was just sharing I thought it has worked well. M. -----Original Message----- From: Opensource Obscure [mailto:open at autistici.org] Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 4:23 AM To: mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com Cc: Daniel Smith; Baloo Uriza; opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:08:07 -0400, wrote: > Seems like twitter has a pretty good solution. Display names are unique. > And your login account isn't public so you have better security. Are you sure? As far as I know, things are quite different: - login account (that Twitter calls "Username") is public - in my case, Username = "oobscure" - full name (properly "Name") in my case is "Opensource Obscure" - in your case, Name = Username = "MysticalDemina" - other people publicly use my Username to "mention" me ("@oobscure") - Twitter website and 3rd party apps show these names in various ways - you can change both Username and Name in any moment - by changing your Username, your Twitter URL changes too Twitter fake personalities indeed exist and that's why Twitter also implemented the "Verified name" thing, that implies an identity verification process. Opensource Obscure From jacek.antonelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:16:04 2010 From: jacek.antonelli at gmail.com (Jacek Antonelli) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:16:04 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Off-topic chatter (Was: Display names, again.) Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Is it just me or did the lindens stop replying to this topic? They probably stopped replying because nearly all of the chatter about Display Names has been off-topic and inappropriate for this list, and continuing to discuss it here just further wastes the time of everyone who subscribed to the list to follow the discussion about Snowglobe, Snowstorm, and other open source projects at Linden Lab. - Jacek From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Aug 20 06:29:08 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:29:08 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Windows Build of Snowstorm (Viewer 2.1.1) (LLKDU) In-Reply-To: <74DA1F15-9540-461D-B7FC-0D45CA58388B@lindenlab.com> References: <74DA1F15-9540-461D-B7FC-0D45CA58388B@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Hi, On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 7:14 AM, Aimee Linden wrote: > That's because of the LLKDU issue that Merov is currently working to fix. > You can work around if for now by replacing the llkdu.dll that comes with > the development viewer with one from the release viewer. > Another way to "fix" it is to simply delete the llkdu.dll. The viewer will launch using openjpeg to decode textures. A bit slower than kdu but adequate. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/eb0bc26c/attachment.htm From danielravennest at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:35:18 2010 From: danielravennest at gmail.com (Daniel) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:35:18 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> If the right click drop-down menus are too small a target for people to hit, make them larger. Proper font size for reading (ie chat text), is not necessarily the right size for a mouse target area. Both should scale as a preferences setting. I do like having pie menus as an option. What I would *really* like to see as a builder, and someone with two widescreen monitors, is the ability to drag floaters completely outside the perspective view area. For me, they just get in the way of seeing what I am doing. How much work would be required to enable that I have no idea. From open at autistici.org Fri Aug 20 06:39:11 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:39:11 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> References: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:35:18 -0500, Daniel wrote: > If the right click drop-down menus are too small a target for people > to hit, make them larger. Proper font size for reading (ie chat text), > is not necessarily the right size for a mouse target area. Both should > scale as a preferences setting. I do like having pie menus as an option. > > What I would *really* like to see as a builder, and someone with two > widescreen monitors, is the ability to drag floaters completely outside > the perspective view area AFAIK, having two monitors is a use case not officially supported by LL/SL If I read correctly, you may want to try Icesphere: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dzonatas_Sol/Icesphere http://icyspherical.blogspot.com Opensource Obscure From websuz at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 06:43:26 2010 From: websuz at gmail.com (Suz Dollar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:43:26 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201153.44382.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C6E867E.20906@gmail.com> My biggest concern here is that the chat logs (local, group, IM) register both display and user name as a mandatory part of how chat logs work. This will forcefully create way to document that so and so was impersonating someone else and acting in a manner unacceptable to the real person. I'm not nearly as concerned that someone whose real life name is Charlene Trudeau wants her display name to be Charlene Trudeau. Esp since MY display name may become Char, or Charlene, or Char @ SkyBeam Estates or some other such whatever. But I'd really like my IM logs, and those others might quote to read something like (using the simple last example above ) : IM: Char @ SkyBeam Estates (Charlene.Trudeau): I wish that there was an Alt-d hot key to take you to the browser style navigation bar at the top for easy entry of a slurl or region name. That would be my preference for both viewer display and chat logs, but definitely would want to see it mandatory on chat logs for any backup needed with LL in AR situations or any other disputes. Char Marine Kelley wrote: > That's not my job, I am a customer in LL's standpoint, I don't work > for them. > > I already talked about possible ways to distinguish a display name > from a user name, for example by putting the display name into > brackets in chatlogs and offline IMs (which are plain text and html > respectively), while using a different color than for user names on > the chat and IM while in world (which is comparable to rich text)/ > There are just plenty of ways. What I insist on is that the > information "this name is a display name" must come from the server, > not from the sending viewer. That's the important part. > > > On 20 August 2010 12:24, Stickman > wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 3:15 AM, Marine Kelley > > wrote: > > damage is done, it is too late. It is CAPITAL that a display > name CANNOT be > > mistaken with a user name, no matter how clever the owner of the > display > > name is. > > You make a good argument. > > How about a solution? > > Changing color is one. Might be easy enough. I don't know if LL > would accept it. > > Changing another property of the name, be it font, size, position, > etc, may be another solution. Font probably not. > > Feel free to come up with other solutions on how to avoid mistaking a > display name with a username. I believe LL's purpose is to make > display names seamless. So it needs to be as unobtrusive as possible. > It also needs to be as simple to implement as possible. The easier the > solution, the more likely LL can just drop it in and test it without > losing time. > > Good luck! > > Stickman > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Aug 20 06:51:05 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:51:05 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: Hi, On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > is it just my failing eyesight, or is there no "allow create landmark" > checkbox in "about land" in 2.1 (snowglobe 2.1.0 r3622) ??? > > Darn! We didn't specifically work on that so it has to be the result of a bogus merge or may be pulling something from viewer-external UI modifs that was not completely baked. Can someone look into the xui? Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/8dcdc6b2/attachment.htm From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 20 07:03:32 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:03:32 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: References: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001cb4070$79cb9110$6d62b330$@net> On this subject yes that option is available but if you want to use that option using the newer viewer you would have to build it yourself while porting a specific patch to make that functional and also there is another issue with icesphere concerning using it on windows vista/7. -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Opensource Obscure Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:39 AM To: Daniel Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:35:18 -0500, Daniel wrote: > If the right click drop-down menus are too small a target for people > to hit, make them larger. Proper font size for reading (ie chat text), > is not necessarily the right size for a mouse target area. Both should > scale as a preferences setting. I do like having pie menus as an option. > > What I would *really* like to see as a builder, and someone with two > widescreen monitors, is the ability to drag floaters completely outside > the perspective view area AFAIK, having two monitors is a use case not officially supported by LL/SL If I read correctly, you may want to try Icesphere: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Dzonatas_Sol/Icesphere http://icyspherical.blogspot.com Opensource Obscure _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3082 - Release Date: 08/20/10 02:35:00 From aimee at lindenlab.com Fri Aug 20 07:17:51 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:17:51 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: That's not a Snowglobe issue ... http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18886 Aimee. On 20 Aug 2010, at 14:51, Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > is it just my failing eyesight, or is there no "allow create landmark" > checkbox in "about land" in 2.1 (snowglobe 2.1.0 r3622) ??? > > > Darn! We didn't specifically work on that so it has to be the result of a bogus merge or may be pulling something from viewer-external UI modifs that was not completely baked. > > Can someone look into the xui? > > Cheers, > - Merov > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/131cc2f0/attachment.htm From aimee at lindenlab.com Fri Aug 20 08:26:23 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:26:23 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> Apparently this option is no longer supported on the server, so it was removed from the viewer as it will have no effect. Aimee. On 20 Aug 2010, at 15:17, Aimee Linden wrote: > That's not a Snowglobe issue ... http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18886 > > Aimee. > > On 20 Aug 2010, at 14:51, Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: >> is it just my failing eyesight, or is there no "allow create landmark" >> checkbox in "about land" in 2.1 (snowglobe 2.1.0 r3622) ??? >> >> >> Darn! We didn't specifically work on that so it has to be the result of a bogus merge or may be pulling something from viewer-external UI modifs that was not completely baked. >> >> Can someone look into the xui? >> >> Cheers, >> - Merov >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/c6a35044/attachment-0001.htm From websuz at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 08:33:05 2010 From: websuz at gmail.com (Suz Dollar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:33:05 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: References: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6EA031.7080302@gmail.com> >> What I would *really* like to see as a builder, and someone with two >> widescreen monitors, is the ability to drag floaters completely outside >> the perspective view area >> > > AFAIK, having two monitors is a use case not officially supported by LL/SL > Perhaps not, but even with a single large format lcd, floaters completely outside the perspective view area would be AWESOME. I'd vote for this one in a heartbeat. Char From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Fri Aug 20 08:51:22 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:51:22 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C6EA47A.3050406@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 08/20/2010 05:26 PM, Aimee Linden wrote: > Apparently this option is no longer supported on the server, so it was > removed from the viewer as it will have no effect. Does that mean that everyone can create landmarks everywhere or that only users with privileges (owner/group role) on the land in question can create landmarks? I hope it's the former, which would be consistent with the fact that everyone can (trivially) create SLurls pointing anywhere they want. cheers Boroondas From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Aug 20 09:04:34 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:04:34 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201008201804.34697.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Friday 20 August 2010 schrieb Aimee Linden: > Apparently this option is no longer supported on the server, so it > was removed from the viewer as it will have no effect. does that mean that now anyone can create landmarks anywhere no matter what? bye, LC From kf6kjg at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 09:06:34 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:06:34 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] To Pie or To List In-Reply-To: References: <20100819202734.GC27230@alinoe.com> Message-ID: Delete only drops it into your Trash folder, so I find that it's not that big of an issue to "Delete" an object. It's only different from "Take" in the destination folder! Your point about removing the entries makes to me. Ricky Cron Stardust On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:40 AM, Opensource Obscure wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:48:52 -0700, Ricky wrote: >> Either way, I still see it as of little use with objects I own or am >> the creator of! >> >> As regards the order for objects for which I am neither creator nor >> owner I have no suggestion. ?The current order might make sense. ?Then >> again, Do I ever have permission to /Delete/ someone else's objects? >> Not so far as I know. ?/Return/ would be the only available option, >> and then only if I have edit privs on the owner's goods, am in a group >> that allows me to return other's goods on the given parcel, or am the >> landowner. >> >> This is starting to sound like it's time for a list: >> * I am Owner >> ** "Report Abuse" is deactivated (Doesn't make sense!) >> ** "Block" is active (I may want to mute my own objects after all!) >> ** "Return" is deactivated >> ** "Delete" is active >> * I am Creator but not Owner and I have no privileges granted >> ** "Report Abuse" is deactivated (NOTE) >> ** "Block" is active >> ** "Return" is deactivated >> ** "Delete" is deactivated >> * I have been either granted Edit on the Owner's goods, am a member of >> a group that the land is deeded to, the group I'm a part of has return >> privs, or I am the land owner: >> ** "Report Abuse" is active >> ** "Block" is active >> ** "Return" is active >> ** "Delete" is deactivated (Unless for some reason land owners can >> delete objects.... This I am unsure of. ?Typically I've seen them >> return items.) >> * Otherwise (Not Creator, Not Owner, No Privs) >> ** "Report Abuse" is active >> ** "Block" is active >> ** "Return" is deactivated >> ** "Delete" is deactivated >> >> (NOTE) There may be a use case here for "Report Abuse" to be active on >> an object I am the creator of, but not the owner: If the object is >> modifiable, it's parts may have been used to make something offensive. >> ?I'd rather keep the option open in this case. >> >> Order may be largely a preference, but I think that "Delete" should be >> topmost, if available as an option. ?However this may create another >> usability issue if the order of items in the menu follows a logical, >> but seemingly random to beginners, order depending on context: A first >> timer would have difficulty knowing beforehand which item will be in >> what position in the menu. ?So the order may need to be fixed, just >> having unusable elements grayed out and deactivated in certain >> contexts. > > If our aim is to make the menu lighter, cleaner and simpler to > read, especially for a newbie, I'd prefer to completely hide > those entries from the menu. Grayed and deactivated entries > are still being read and their meaning is processed by the > brain, so it's only a partial semplification. > > If the problem is only that one risks to return or abuse-report > her stuff, I find it to be a very small and low-priority problem, > as both those features have a confirmation window. > > Personally, I think Delete should be in a submenu and it should NOT > be easily available, as we want to avoid it being triggered by error. > > Opensource Obscure > From holydoughnuts at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 09:07:52 2010 From: holydoughnuts at gmail.com (Tori C.) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:07:52 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: <4C6EA47A.3050406@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> <4C6EA47A.3050406@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Boroondas Gupte < sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch> wrote: > Does that mean that everyone can create landmarks everywhere or that > only users with privileges (owner/group role) on the land in question > can create landmarks? I hope it's the former, which would be consistent > with the fact that everyone can (trivially) create SLurls pointing > anywhere they want. > Allowed by all, apparently. For the last few server versions, that flag's been getting reset to allow all at restart time. It's kind of weird that it bothers saving the setting even temporarily on a running sim. There is still a permission check in Viewer 2, but header comments that it's going away some day, on both server and viewer side it looks like a change that was started and never quite got finished :/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/f92937a5/attachment.htm From aimee at lindenlab.com Fri Aug 20 09:25:10 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:25:10 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Mac Build Failing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That looks like https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-742 which is fixed in the viewer-public internal branch (which is where viewer-external on SVN comes from) and will hopefully be merged into viewer-development soon. Aimee. On 20 Aug 2010, at 03:18, Ricky wrote: > I've pulled rev 11450 (tip at the moment), then cd'd into indra ran > develop.py and the compile failed. More info on procedures I used > after the system specs. > > Hardware Overview: > Model Name: Mac mini aluminum > Model Identifier: Macmini4,1 > Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo > Processor Speed: 2.66 GHz > Number Of Processors: 1 > Total Number Of Cores: 2 > L2 Cache: 3 MB > Memory: 8 GB > Bus Speed: 1.07 GHz > > System Software Overview: > System Version: Mac OS X 10.6.4 (10F2025) > Kernel Version: Darwin 10.4.1 > Boot Volume: System Drive > Boot Mode: Normal > Secure Virtual Memory: Not Enabled > 64-bit Kernel and Extensions: No > > Procedure 1: (It defaulted to RelWithDebInfo) > hg pull > hg up > cd indra > ./develop.py configure > ./develop.py build > > Error: > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > ** BUILD FAILED ** > > The following build commands failed: > package: > PhaseScriptExecution "CMake PostBuild Rules" > /Users/ricky/Development/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/newview/SecondLife.build/RelWithDebInfo/package.build/Script-1C6E7B01C6E7B01C6E7B0000.sh > (1 failure) > > Error: the command 'xcodebuild' exited with status 1 > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > Procedure 2: (Switching to Release. Took longer, failed anyway.) > hg pull > hg up > cd indra > ./develop.py -t Release configure > ./develop.py -t Release build > > Error: > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > ** BUILD FAILED ** > > The following build commands failed: > INTEGRATION_TEST_llsecapi: > Ld /Users/ricky/Development/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/sharedlibs/Release/Release/INTEGRATION_TEST_llsecapi > normal i386 > PhaseScriptExecution "CMake PostBuild Rules" > /Users/ricky/Development/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/newview/SecondLife.build/Release/INTEGRATION_TEST_llsecapi.build/Script-1BC14D01BC14D01BC14D0000.sh > package: > PhaseScriptExecution "CMake PostBuild Rules" > /Users/ricky/Development/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/newview/SecondLife.build/Release/package.build/Script-1C6E9E01C6E9E01C6E9E0000.sh > (3 failures) > > Error: the command 'xcodebuild' exited with status 1 > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > What should I do? Is this a known issue? > > Ricky > Cron Stardust > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From secret.argent at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 10:39:39 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:39:39 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Aimee Linden wrote: > Apparently this option is no longer supported on the server, If this means you can now create landmarks anywhere, three cheers! From moriz.gupte at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 11:19:12 2010 From: moriz.gupte at gmail.com (Moriz Gupte) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:19:12 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] SCRUM question: negative daily velocity Message-ID: May I venture to share these questions: Regarding the snowstorm sprint2 backlog: I have always tried to observe other teams using scrum and I have a question regarding negative daily velocity values. I am not familiar with this and am thinking if this is the case, then it could mean that burndown graph Y axis would need negative values as well?? What does negative daily velocity actually mean? just a reflection of a task having been underestimated? R 'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.' *Rameshsharma Ramloll* PhD, *Research Associate Professor*, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-282-5333 Blog , LinkedIn , Play2Train -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/a3c3a42e/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Fri Aug 20 18:43:56 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson)) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:43:56 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 08/20/2010 Message-ID: Date: Fri Aug 20 Daily Scrum Summary also available online: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive == GENERAL NOTES == Q is OOO for the next few days Remember to update the Sprint Backlog! == DAILY SCRUM == === Aimee === PAST Staged some more build fixes from Snowglobe into aimee_linden/viewer-development-import Merged into to viewer-development More Mercurial and bitbucket guidance to open source contributors Helped Oz get SSH to Bitbucket going FUTURE Pull in some more Snowglobe fixes Merge from aimee_linden/viewer-development-import to viewer-development Find out what we're doing about stuff in viewer-public and viewer-release? Merge / convert / merge? IMPEDIMENTS None. === Tofu === OOO === Oz === PAST Fixed ssh authentication problem (thanks Aimee) Process discussions Got deeper training on TeamCity Discussions with tools team on common code issues Set up new canonical build for viewer-development (changed 'oz' to 'snowstorm' in name). Set up experimental repository & build Code review of submission from WolfPup (building now) FUTURE More wiki improvements Post archive of Wednesdays OH Add transcriber to this scrum meeting space IMPEDIMENTS none === Merov === PAST LLKDU in viewer-development: Analyzed the llkdu.dll crash on Windows on launch. Aimee was right : we will have to port all of SNOW-345 (see http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-345) fixes to Snowstorm. The good news is I know what to do now. The bad news is that last time I did it consumed 3 days to get things right. I'm thinking of ways to just tease the lib without rebuilding it and point install.xml to it. Got all my bitbucket and TeamCity ducks in a row: there's now a merov_linden/viewer-development-import repo (same model as Aimee's) Snowglobe: completed cleanup of 1.x (SNOW-713 issues) FUTURE LLKDU in viewer-development: Try the fixed llkdu.dll from Snowglobe 1.4 bluntly as a test LLKDU in viewer-development: Move the relevant SNOW-345 changes to Snowstorm LLKDU in viewer-development: Modify build.sh to download the llkdu libs even when -DINSTALL_PROPRIETARY:BOOL=ON is not set LLKDU in viewer-development: Create a separate private repo for building llkdu cleaning from code (need to double check that with brad) IMPEDIMENTS None === Q === OOO === Esbee === PAST Triaging EXT bugs and prepping to convert them to VWR Continued response to blog and SLCC feedback Discussion with QA about integration and release process Started sketch of undockable sidebar tabs FUTURE Finish sketch undockable/dockable sidebar design and send to XD team for a quick review Set up weekly office hours to discuss product backlog and ideas! Continue Jira triage Continue to follow up on SLCC and Snowstorm blog feedback Start adding Resident feedback/ideas/user stories to the Snowstorm Backlog on a new tab Document idea submission process and worm with those ideas Flying back to SF on Sunday IMPEDIMENTS None === Paul === PAST BUG EXT-8405 (Clicking an attachment switches the Add More inventory to Flat view) In progress 95%. FUTURE BUG EXT-8405 (Clicking an attachment switches the Add More inventory to Flat view) IMPEDIMENTS none note: vacation request 09.13-09.24 === Andrew === PAST Pushed tickets that passed review Task VWR-20703(Research bottom bar code) Investigation more or less complete Started writing test code for moving buttons Cloned and built viewer-development FUTURE Task VWR-20702(Snowstorm Sprint 2: As a User who's customized the bottom bar of the Viewer UI, I also want to be able to control the order of the buttons as they appear in the UI.) IMPEDIMENTS none === Vadim === PAST Task VWR-20724 (Missing underlined shortcuts in some top-level menus): Implemented, committed. Task VWR-20734 (Changed parcel properties to default to "on" in the location bar): Implemented, committed. Helping web site developers to investigate a problem with viewer requiring user to upgrade to Premium account before buying a parcel on the mainland. FUTURE Discuss proposed commit process Proceed with Sprint #2 tasks. IMPEDIMENTS What to do with tickets we no longer work on? How to pass them to QA ? === Sergey === PAST Bug (EXT-7325) My Landmarks: "Show on Map" context menu item is enabled while "Map" button is disabled for selected landmark. Pushed fix. Bug (EXT-8697) My Landmarks: 'Cut' item should be greyed out in folder's context menu Pushed fix. Bug (VWR-20694) Snowstorm Sprint 2: As a User, I want to undock tabs from the Viewer sidebar so that I can control what tabs are displayed and organize them on my screen in any way I want like I could do in 1.23. WIP. Researching Side Bar, Dockable Floater code. FUTURE Bug (VWR-20694) Snowstorm Sprint 2: As a User, I want to undock tabs from the Viewer sidebar so that I can control what tabs are displayed and organize them on my screen in any way I want like I could do in 1.23. IMPEDIMENTS none Vacation Sept 6-9 === Anya === PAST Investigation/Discussion of suggested new commit process for PE Clarified tasks/bugs Discussed with Bambers options for Snowstorm QA FUTURE figure out process for Hg discuss QA options with Esbee & Bambers get answers to questions listed as impediments crashhunters IMPEDIMENTS No tasks to take from backlog that don't require design Should I add EXT bugs we're currently working on to the sprint backlog? (20%) How best to engage QA in the Snowstorm process? Vadim: How to assign/pass issues to QA? Task EXT-7756 (Add sort order to My Outfits gear menu (name or date)) - how to deal with server changes? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100820/a579d9ca/attachment-0001.htm From carlo at alinoe.com Sat Aug 21 04:29:22 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:29:22 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> <201008200822.11430.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <20100821112922.GA27589@alinoe.com> I fail to see how this would solve the complexity that is currently on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_%28Linux%29 as that mainly deals with installing and finding system libraries (not the prebuilt ones) and with workaround of bugs of the build system. No matter what script you'd provide, all of that would still be needed. On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:32:35PM -0700, CG Linden wrote: > Of course I'd only do that -after- providing the shared build scripts. -- Carlo Wood From carlo at alinoe.com Sat Aug 21 04:41:52 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:41:52 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Coping with duplicated display names. Message-ID: <20100821114152.GB27589@alinoe.com> While there may be 1 million users (at some time in the future) using Second Life, the display name would be used for distinguishing friends and people in your neighborhood. Being an old-time IRC developer, I see simularities with IRC nick names (that can collide) and how I'd have solved that if I had been given the chance :p. What I'd do is tag every display name (internally) with the time at which it was set. Then, when someone enters a sim where someone has the same display name, the youngest of the two is reset (the server could reset it to empty and ask at the same time for an alternative; the viewer could be changed to provide an alternative automatically, provided that didn't exist also already). An empty display name would result in the username being displayed, of course, which is supposedly unique. This would reduce griefing a lot, since you'd have to guess what display name someone is going to use before they set it. It would also reduce confusion because it would not be possible for two people to have the same display name when in the same sim. Most of this idea (adding a timestamp and comparing display names when someone logins in or teleports to a new sim; resetting it and asking for an alternative) is almost exclusively server-side though; not sure who to contact to propose it. -- Carlo Wood From carlo at alinoe.com Sat Aug 21 04:45:41 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:45:41 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <201008200013.42894.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008200013.42894.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <20100821114541.GC27589@alinoe.com> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:13:42AM +0200, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Totally not. It should even trigger an automated AR for impersonating, Please no. > together with a warning message sent to the current holder of the > login name... "johndoe1234567890 tried to set his display name to your > login name. the resi team has been notified." As long as the viewer code can see the difference, leave it to the viewer codes (TPV's, and us too) how to make clear to everyone that a display name is a display name and a username is a username. No need for yet another way to Abuse Report someone :/ I'd suggest using some kind of colored ornament around usernames and/or display names. Or let the users choose in what color they want to display those names, using a default with two different colors of course. -- Carlo Wood From carlo at alinoe.com Sat Aug 21 04:51:08 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:51:08 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> References: <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> Message-ID: <20100821115108.GD27589@alinoe.com> ROFL - unique display names Well, I suggested the same, but per SIM -- not globally :p Making them globally unique would kinda void the whole reason they are being introduced imho. I think I saw a very strong argument posted here about not automating anything though: It's near 100% sure that people will be able to LOOK like having the same display name while no computer will be able to notice that. I think that using a different color or rectangle around display names (or user names) to differentiate them is the way to go to make sure nobody will ever think that a display name is someones user name. On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 08:08:07PM -0400, mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com wrote: > Seems like twitter has a pretty good solution. Display names are unique. And > your login account isn?t public so you have better security. Default your > display name to your current SL name. After that people can request the name > they want. As far as scripts, chat, everything else, that use your text > version of your name, they all change on other systems and we get by. > > > > Mystical -- Carlo Wood From lillie.yiyuan at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 05:14:07 2010 From: lillie.yiyuan at gmail.com (Lillian Yiyuan) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 08:14:07 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: <20100821115108.GD27589@alinoe.com> References: <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> <20100821115108.GD27589@alinoe.com> Message-ID: Many of the problems can be solved with options to put account name into a log, or make it visible in a tag. That way, if people want to know the unique identifier, they can see it, and can have it logged. Many of us are required to log conversations while at work, and having a real account name option would make second life compliant with standards that mandate having a log which tracks the identities of people we speak with. Display names do not meet that standard, account names do. On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Carlo Wood wrote: > ROFL - unique display names > > Well, I suggested the same, but per SIM -- not globally :p > Making them globally unique would kinda void the whole reason > they are being introduced imho. > > I think I saw a very strong argument posted here about not > automating anything though: It's near 100% sure that people > will be able to LOOK like having the same display name while > no computer will be able to notice that. > > I think that using a different color or rectangle around > display names (or user names) to differentiate them is the > way to go to make sure nobody will ever think that a display > name is someones user name. > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 08:08:07PM -0400, mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com wrote: >> Seems like twitter has a pretty good solution. ?Display names are unique. ?And >> your login account isn?t public so you have better security. ?Default your >> display name to your current SL name. ?After that people can request the name >> they want. ?As far as scripts, chat, everything else, that use your text >> version of your name, they all change on other systems and we get by. >> >> >> >> Mystical > > -- > Carlo Wood > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From carlo at alinoe.com Sat Aug 21 05:15:39 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:15:39 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <20100821121539.GE27589@alinoe.com> I'm not a Linden, but I think the answers to your questions exist before they are implemented :p. > 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use my > true avatar name as their display name? No, the display name will be distinguishable by color or graphical-something around it (that therefore cannot be faked or changed by changing the display name). > 2. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone from using a > display name that might be different from my true avatar name but for > all visual verification looks like it, given how there are unicode > characters that have a different code but look like regular > characters? That would be impossible, hence the use of colors or other markings completely OUTSIDE the (control of the) displayname / username, see point 1. > 3. Will there be procedures in place to prevent the case where someone > uses a copyrighted name of a fictional character (like, for example, > "Mickey Mouse" or "Clark Kent") as their display name? I hope not. Once you're finished with filtering all welknown characters in history, all company names, and all profanity, and then went on to attempt to also filter anything that LOOKS like it (M1ckey Mous3), the server would spend 99.5% of it's time on checking is display names are allowed (and still fail). > 4. If the answer to any of the above is not a clear and loud yes: Will > there be procedures in place to protect the original holder of any > true avatar name from legal damages after someone used their name as > their display name for fraudulent uses? I'm starting to feel sick. "Mom! Paul drew 'Carlo' in the sand of the sandbox and then he said 'this is me!'. Now he's peeing on Mrs..." TATUUTATUUU *policemen storming the sandbox and pushing totler 'Paul' face down in the sand 'YOU ARE SURROUNDED! GIVE UP YOUR WATER PISTOL, heh, GIVE UP YOUR SUPER SOAKER 2010! ANYTHING YOU SAY WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU AND YOUR PARENTS!' Welcome to America -- Carlo Wood From makosoft at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 06:40:02 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:40:02 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? Message-ID: You may recall that the Emerald viewer has been leaking potentially privacy-infringing information - specifically, the directory to which it's been installed, which in some cases includes usernames - in encrypted form in baked textures. You may also recall that the developers lied and said the issue was fixed, when really they just leaked the same data but with stronger encryption to hide it better. Well, it turns out that the Emerald developers have been using their viewer to launch a Distributed Denial of Service attack on the website of the person who discovered this[1]. The attack involved loading about 1 MB of images and a whole bunch of dynamically-generated content from the Emerald login screen displayed every time a user opened Emerald to consume both bandwidth and server CPU time.[2] This served no purpose other than to try and DoS the server - none of the loaded content was visible or used. The Emerald developers have even admitted as much, though they're trying to spin it interestingly[3]. (Their explanation is total bullshit - if they just wanted to make a point about the number of Emerald users rather than attack the server, loading a single file would do.) Now, this is of course entirely in violation of the TPV policy, which forbids certain content - including DoS attacks - within third party viewers. The question is, does the Lab care and will they even remove the viewer in question from the TPV directory? [1] http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/47885-emerald-problem-conspiracy-theory-3.html#post997824 [2] See http://pastebin.ca/1921405 for a copy of the actual code. [3] http://blog.modularsystems.sl/2010/08/20/shenanigans/ From tom at streamsense.net Sat Aug 21 07:04:16 2010 From: tom at streamsense.net (Thomas Grimshaw) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:04:16 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but paranoid bull. I'm not a big fan of the Emerald team either, they're arrogant, two-faced, cast themselves as elitists, and censor comments on their website that don't speak in their favour. But if you're going to make such accusations, do some research on exactly how much traffic is required to negatively impact a server (at least, one that's hosted on a proper connection). Tom. On 21/08/2010 14:40, Aidan Thornton wrote: > The attack involved loading about 1 MB of images and a whole bunch of dynamically-generated > content from the Emerald login screen displayed every time a user > opened Emerald to consume both bandwidth and server CPU time. From makosoft at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 07:32:55 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:32:55 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Thomas Grimshaw wrote: > Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. > Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but > paranoid bull. This isn't normal crosslinking. The images and content loaded weren't actually used for anything - they were all hidden in a 1-pixel DIV to make them totally invisible to the user. (The Emerald developers wouldn't want them to be displayed on the login screen since many of the images were ones showing they'd been up to no good.) You also have no idea how often the Emerald login screen is viewed, do you? I'll give you a hint - this apparently worked out at around 70-120 GB per day of data transfer[1]. At the cheaper end of excess bandwidth charges, this could easily have cost a victim ?200 per day or more - most people don't have over 2 terabytes of monthly transfer allowance included in their web hosting plan, which is how much would've been needed to withstand this attack. Before the Emerald developers upgraded their webserver to something seriously beefy, just the normal requests for the login screen were bringing their website to a standstill, and the number of users has only increased since then. And the bandwidth usage isn't even the main DDoS vector. The Emerald login screen was set up to waste lots of server CPU time by making 20 worthless requests for PHP-generated content on the victim server every time someone viewed it. That did cause some real performance issues for the victim site - shared hosting really can't cope with this kind of request rate for dynamically-generated content. [1] http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/47885-emerald-problem-conspiracy-theory-5.html#post999709 From soft at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 07:33:52 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 07:33:52 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Thomas Grimshaw wrote: > ?Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. > Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but > paranoid bull. "Crosslinking" drops the context of hiding gibberish requests to a critic's website in a hidden frame that will never be revealed to the user. This isn't a mere hyperlink to another page or naively stealing someone else's image hosting. My read (but I'm no lawyer) is that this looks like 2.d.iii of http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php and we're already having that discussion. If anyone can come up with specific reasons why this might have had legitimate reason to be there, or how this one could be yet another oversight or mistake, that would be helpful. I sure haven't heard any to date. -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 07:46:42 2010 From: discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com (Discrete Dreamscape) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:46:42 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> This was one person's decision, and was deliberately done for the sole purpose of messing with the owner of the victim site (although I'd hardly call the particular individual a victim). Regardless, the team was pretty disappointed. The one person currently owns all parts of Emerald's hosting, so it was their decision, albeit a ridiculous one. They don't take the project seriously, and it's more than a little embarrassing to the rest of the people associated with the team that this kind of thing keeps happening, over and over again. Discrete On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Brian McGroarty wrote: > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Thomas Grimshaw wrote: >> Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. >> Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but >> paranoid bull. > > "Crosslinking" drops the context of hiding gibberish requests to a > critic's website in a hidden frame that will never be revealed to the > user. This isn't a mere hyperlink to another page or naively stealing > someone else's image hosting. > > My read (but I'm no lawyer) is that this looks like 2.d.iii of > http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php and we're already having that > discussion. If anyone can come up with specific reasons why this might > have had legitimate reason to be there, or how this one could be yet > another oversight or mistake, that would be helpful. I sure haven't > heard any to date. > > -- > Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From soft at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 08:10:47 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 08:10:47 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Discrete Dreamscape wrote: > This was one person's decision, and was deliberately done for the sole > purpose of messing with the owner of the victim site (although I'd > hardly call the particular individual a victim). Regardless, the team > was pretty disappointed. The one person currently owns all parts of > Emerald's hosting, so it was their decision, albeit a ridiculous one. > They don't take the project seriously, and it's more than a little > embarrassing to the rest of the people associated with the team that > this kind of thing keeps happening, over and over again. Appreciated - it's helpful to have this put plainly and publicly. Am I right that the target server belongs to the guy who: 1) Was interviewed in a previous blog write-up about the IP & username database and geolocation tool that he sought to show was built up for Emerald Point visitors, Insilico visitors, and people creating accounts via the Modular Systems website? 2) Demonstrated that Emerald wasn't removing usernames from paths before embedding them in textures even after the team's first attempted fix? I know we already talked to the team and set some conditions after the first one. The second one's been explained as a mistake that Modular Systems would be willing to publicly acknowledge and correct - the potential for collecting usernames would have to be in the viewer's privacy policy otherwise, and it isn't to date. But that one of these incidents was history and the second was supposed to be a mistake made the hidden request activity all the more confusing. -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sat Aug 21 08:15:12 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:15:12 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] "ticket type: viewer directory" (was: Re: Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008211715.13038.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> The policy is worth NOTHING. let me quote from the emerald details page: "To file a ticket, please visit the Second Life Support Portal and click on New Ticket Submission. On the ticket page, select Ticket Type: Viewer Directory, and fill in the fields that appear." Guess what, the new, improved ticket system does not have a ticket type with that name. It also does not have any discernible ticket type to tell LL that something's missing from the website, nor does it have a ticket type "Other". On the other hand, it takes months to get a TPV listed by now, for reasons unknown. bye, LC Am Saturday 21 August 2010 schrieb Aidan Thornton: > You may recall that the Emerald viewer has been leaking potentially > privacy-infringing information - specifically, the directory to > which it's been installed, which in some cases includes usernames > - in encrypted form in baked textures. You may also recall that > the developers lied and said the issue was fixed, when really they > just leaked the same data but with stronger encryption to hide it > better. > > Well, it turns out that the Emerald developers have been using > their viewer to launch a Distributed Denial of Service attack on > the website of the person who discovered this[1]. The attack > involved loading about 1 MB of images and a whole bunch of > dynamically-generated content from the Emerald login screen > displayed every time a user opened Emerald to consume both > bandwidth and server CPU time.[2] This served no purpose other > than to try and DoS the server - none of the loaded content was > visible or used. The Emerald developers have even admitted as > much, though they're trying to spin it interestingly[3]. (Their > explanation is total bullshit - if they just wanted to make a > point about the number of Emerald users rather than attack the > server, loading a single file would do.) > > Now, this is of course entirely in violation of the TPV policy, > which forbids certain content - including DoS attacks - within > third party viewers. The question is, does the Lab care and will > they even remove the viewer in question from the TPV directory? > > [1] > http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/47885-emera > ld-problem-conspiracy-theory-3.html#post997824 [2] See > http://pastebin.ca/1921405 for a copy of the actual code. [3] > http://blog.modularsystems.sl/2010/08/20/shenanigans/ > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 08:24:20 2010 From: discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com (Discrete Dreamscape) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:24:20 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <217553653821462739@unknownmsgid> Actually, I prefer to remember him as: 1) The guy who hacked Emerald's servers before discovering the data storage issue and 2) The active developer of a malicious viewer under the lolguise of promoting exploit/bugfixing. But hey, they keep antagonizing him, so of course this kind of thing continues. Discrete On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:10 AM, Brian McGroarty wrote: > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Discrete Dreamscape > wrote: >> This was one person's decision, and was deliberately done for the sole >> purpose of messing with the owner of the victim site (although I'd >> hardly call the particular individual a victim). Regardless, the team >> was pretty disappointed. The one person currently owns all parts of >> Emerald's hosting, so it was their decision, albeit a ridiculous one. >> They don't take the project seriously, and it's more than a little >> embarrassing to the rest of the people associated with the team that >> this kind of thing keeps happening, over and over again. > > Appreciated - it's helpful to have this put plainly and publicly. > > Am I right that the target server belongs to the guy who: > > 1) Was interviewed in a previous blog write-up about the IP & username > database and geolocation tool that he sought to show was built up for > Emerald Point visitors, Insilico visitors, and people creating > accounts via the Modular Systems website? > > 2) Demonstrated that Emerald wasn't removing usernames from paths > before embedding them in textures even after the team's first > attempted fix? > > I know we already talked to the team and set some conditions after the > first one. The second one's been explained as a mistake that Modular > Systems would be willing to publicly acknowledge and correct - the > potential for collecting usernames would have to be in the viewer's > privacy policy otherwise, and it isn't to date. But that one of these > incidents was history and the second was supposed to be a mistake made > the hidden request activity all the more confusing. > > -- > Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 08:33:08 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:33:08 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <217553653821462739@unknownmsgid> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> <217553653821462739@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I hate to say this but, it has nothing to do with who they are focusing the attack on its is the fact that they used there users machines with out there consent, this is a clear violation of US law and can be investigated by FBI/NSA with punishment up to 10 years in jail, not to mention a clear violation of the TOS. But i guess that is the way that i see it. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Discrete Dreamscape < discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com> wrote: > Actually, I prefer to remember him as: > > 1) The guy who hacked Emerald's servers before discovering the data > storage issue and > > 2) The active developer of a malicious viewer under the lolguise of > promoting exploit/bugfixing. > > But hey, they keep antagonizing him, so of course this kind of thing > continues. > > > Discrete > > > On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:10 AM, Brian McGroarty wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Discrete Dreamscape > > wrote: > >> This was one person's decision, and was deliberately done for the sole > >> purpose of messing with the owner of the victim site (although I'd > >> hardly call the particular individual a victim). Regardless, the team > >> was pretty disappointed. The one person currently owns all parts of > >> Emerald's hosting, so it was their decision, albeit a ridiculous one. > >> They don't take the project seriously, and it's more than a little > >> embarrassing to the rest of the people associated with the team that > >> this kind of thing keeps happening, over and over again. > > > > Appreciated - it's helpful to have this put plainly and publicly. > > > > Am I right that the target server belongs to the guy who: > > > > 1) Was interviewed in a previous blog write-up about the IP & username > > database and geolocation tool that he sought to show was built up for > > Emerald Point visitors, Insilico visitors, and people creating > > accounts via the Modular Systems website? > > > > 2) Demonstrated that Emerald wasn't removing usernames from paths > > before embedding them in textures even after the team's first > > attempted fix? > > > > I know we already talked to the team and set some conditions after the > > first one. The second one's been explained as a mistake that Modular > > Systems would be willing to publicly acknowledge and correct - the > > potential for collecting usernames would have to be in the viewer's > > privacy policy otherwise, and it isn't to date. But that one of these > > incidents was history and the second was supposed to be a mistake made > > the hidden request activity all the more confusing. > > > > -- > > Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > > Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/6a4e41bb/attachment.htm From soft at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 08:34:03 2010 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Brian McGroarty) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 08:34:03 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <217553653821462739@unknownmsgid> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> <217553653821462739@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Discrete Dreamscape wrote: > Actually, I prefer to remember him as: > > 1) The guy who hacked Emerald's servers before discovering the data > storage issue and > > 2) The active developer of a malicious viewer under the lolguise of > promoting exploit/bugfixing. > > But hey, they keep antagonizing him, so of course this kind of thing continues. Yeah, he's no saint from these or a hundred other things said about him. Ditto the Emerald leadership. For us though, the problem begins if a pissing match extends to SL or resis' use of SL. -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler From discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 08:39:53 2010 From: discrete.dreamscape at gmail.com (Discrete Dreamscape) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:39:53 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <1686389A-402F-40E4-9586-2DA92F763C9E@katharineberry.co.uk> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> <217553653821462739@unknownmsgid> <1686389A-402F-40E4-9586-2DA92F763C9E@katharineberry.co.uk> Message-ID: <-1102826829278121746@unknownmsgid> I don't care if it's relevant; it should still be clarified. "Did nobody think?" Of course not, nobody knew he would actually go through with something like that. Discrete On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:31 AM, Katharine Berry wrote: >> 2) The active developer of a malicious viewer under the lolguise of >> promoting exploit/bugfixing. > > As I have pointed out elsewhere ? I don't think that anyone was actually considering the target to be terribly virtuous. I also don't think this is terribly relevant. > > But given you repeatedly emphasise that he is malicious, did nobody think that it might be unwise to secretly load a website owned by a malicious party on login? Aside from WebKit/Qt exploits and the like, the SL client also considers the login frame to be "trusted" (admittedly, there's not much you can do with this before logging in besides changing the login location, off the top of my head). From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 09:10:33 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:10:33 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> References: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6FFA79.80400@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-20 9:35, Daniel wrote: > What I would*really* like to see as a builder, and someone with two > widescreen monitors, is the ability to drag floaters completely outside > the perspective view area. For me, they just get in the way of seeing > what I am doing. How much work would be required to enable that I have > no idea. I'd really like that one too, and I don't even really qualify as a builder. Unfortunately, it doesn't qualify as 'easy', but it is marked as a High priority item on the Snowstorm backlog. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/d9805669/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 09:15:03 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:15:03 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: <201008201804.34697.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <70672DEB-93F4-4BD8-9E5E-C30DE1F4BCBA@lindenlab.com> <201008201804.34697.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C6FFB87.4010604@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-20 12:04, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Friday 20 August 2010 schrieb Aimee Linden: >> > Apparently this option is no longer supported on the server, so it >> > was removed from the viewer as it will have no effect. > does that mean that now anyone can create landmarks anywhere no matter > what? Yes... of course, parcel owners can still control whether or not others can actually teleport to arbitrary points within the parcel. From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 09:17:00 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:17:00 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: <20100821112922.GA27589@alinoe.com> References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> <201008200822.11430.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <20100821112922.GA27589@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <4C6FFBFC.4040303@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-21 7:29, Carlo Wood wrote: > I fail to see how this would solve the complexity that is currently > on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_%28Linux%29 > as that mainly deals with installing and finding system libraries > (not the prebuilt ones) and with workaround of bugs of the build system. > No matter what script you'd provide, all of that would still be needed. The tools team is working on improvements that will make that much easier too. From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 09:23:01 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:23:01 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2F4A799@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> <4646639E08F58B42836FAC24C94624DD86C2F4A799@GVW0433EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <4C6FFD65.9010201@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-19 20:26, Dickson, Mike (ISS Software) wrote: > > CG, I get not found errors when trying to access the hg repository for > the build system. Is this repository not operational yet or is the > link incorrect in the doc. Thx! > > CG is cleaning things up so that he can push that repository to the public side - which will be another big step forward in our new openness. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/4a990e95/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sat Aug 21 09:23:51 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:23:51 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: <4C6FFA79.80400@lindenlab.com> References: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> <4C6FFA79.80400@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201008211823.51510.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Saturday 21 August 2010 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > On 2010-08-20 9:35, Daniel wrote: > > What I would*really* like to see as a builder, and someone with > > two widescreen monitors, is the ability to drag floaters > > completely outside the perspective view area. For me, they just > > get in the way of seeing what I am doing. How much work would > > be required to enable that I have no idea. > > I'd really like that one too, and I don't even really qualify as a > builder. > > Unfortunately, it doesn't qualify as 'easy', but it is marked as a > High priority item on the Snowstorm backlog. suggestion: move the WHOLE user interface from being inside the openGL context out into being Qt/GTK dialogs / menu structures. that way you could easily make as much as possible into non modal dialogs, and people could actually move them anywhere they want on their screen. of course this would totally kill fullscreen mode... bye, LC From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 09:26:34 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:26:34 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Mercurial Tutorial Session 8/24 Message-ID: <4C6FFE3A.3090200@lindenlab.com> CG Linden has volunteered to give a tutorial on Mercurial usage and answer questions from open source users. I've scheduled this as a special topic for the regular open source meeting that day (if this schedule is a problem, we could move it to Thursday). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/31e50011/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sat Aug 21 09:39:52 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:39:52 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] no "allow create landmark" in 2.1? In-Reply-To: <4C6FFB87.4010604@lindenlab.com> References: <201008191937.27773.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201804.34697.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C6FFB87.4010604@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201008211839.52705.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Saturday 21 August 2010 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > On 2010-08-20 12:04, Lance Corrimal wrote: > > Am Friday 20 August 2010 schrieb Aimee Linden: > >> > Apparently this option is no longer supported on the server, > >> > so it was removed from the viewer as it will have no effect. > > > > does that mean that now anyone can create landmarks anywhere no > > matter what? > > Yes... of course, parcel owners can still control whether or not > others can actually teleport to arbitrary points within the > parcel. teleport routing has _nothing_ to do with wether someone can create a landmark on my land, or not... teleport routing decides if a landmark actually works, or takes one to once certain place within a parcel, no matter what coord are in the landmark. so now anyone could map-tp into my bedroom in my absence, create a landmark, rename it to "free sex here" and pass it to newbies on zindra, and I would sit around and wonder why my psyke orbs run hot? great idea. interestingly enough, the parcel setting "allow others to create landmarks here" is still working as advertized... so with 2.0 you cannot _change_ it anymore... funky. bye, LC From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 10:01:03 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:01:03 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C70064F.9050903@lindenlab.com> Actually, I think that the answers to your questions are clear from the published material, Lance, but here... > 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use my > true avatar name as their display name? No. > 2. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone from using a > display name that might be different from my true avatar name but for > all visual verification looks like it, given how there are unicode > characters that have a different code but look like regular > characters? No (this problem is intractable). > 3. Will there be procedures in place to prevent the case where someone > uses a copyrighted name of a fictional character (like, for example, > "Mickey Mouse" or "Clark Kent") as their display name? No. (no change from the current restrictions - the ToS does not allow the use of copyrighted or trademarked names anywhere, but any enforcement of that is outside the software). > 4. If the answer to any of the above is not a clear and loud yes: Will > there be procedures in place to protect the original holder of any > true avatar name from legal damages after someone used their name as > their display name for fraudulent uses? Matters of civil law are outside the scope of this list, and I don't believe the question is really answerable in any context. There are very good mechanisms in the new name system to make avatar identities (not the RL identities behind them) unambiguous. If you are engaging in any exchange with someone for which identity is important, you should learn how to use them. This list is really not the place for this discussion - the Display Names blog comment area is much better. From secret.argent at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 11:41:25 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:41:25 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: <4C6FFA79.80400@lindenlab.com> References: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> <4C6FFA79.80400@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <5ED4ED51-30EF-4F09-8223-2E87EA5E12B9@gmail.com> On 2010-08-21, at 11:10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > I'd really like that one too, and I don't even really qualify as a builder. > > Unfortunately, it doesn't qualify as 'easy', but it is marked as a High priority item on the Snowstorm backlog. Innnteresting. Using a new UI approach (eg, Qt) or opening up multiple OpenGL windows? From mrfrans at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 11:56:16 2010 From: mrfrans at gmail.com (Frans) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:56:16 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Coping with duplicated display names. In-Reply-To: <20100821114152.GB27589@alinoe.com> References: <20100821114152.GB27589@alinoe.com> Message-ID: I like this idea, and the IRC analogy makes sense, I would like it even going a bit further and have not the same display names in the same estate/continent. To prevent abuse in 4 corner sims situations. -Frans On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Carlo Wood wrote: > While there may be 1 million users (at some time in the future) > using Second Life, the display name would be used for distinguishing > friends and people in your neighborhood. > > Being an old-time IRC developer, I see simularities with > IRC nick names (that can collide) and how I'd have solved > that if I had been given the chance :p. > > What I'd do is tag every display name (internally) with > the time at which it was set. Then, when someone enters > a sim where someone has the same display name, the youngest > of the two is reset (the server could reset it to empty > and ask at the same time for an alternative; the viewer > could be changed to provide an alternative automatically, > provided that didn't exist also already). An empty display > name would result in the username being displayed, of course, > which is supposedly unique. > > This would reduce griefing a lot, since you'd have to guess > what display name someone is going to use before they set > it. It would also reduce confusion because it would not > be possible for two people to have the same display name > when in the same sim. > > Most of this idea (adding a timestamp and comparing > display names when someone logins in or teleports to > a new sim; resetting it and asking for an alternative) > is almost exclusively server-side though; not sure who > to contact to propose it. > > -- > Carlo Wood > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Jeroen Frans Virtual World Technology Specialist @ http://VesuviusGroup.com Second Life: Frans Charming blog about SL @ http://secondslog.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/48ebd5bd/attachment.htm From javajoint at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 12:20:38 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:20:38 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <4C70064F.9050903@lindenlab.com> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C70064F.9050903@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > Actually, I think that the answers to your questions are clear from > the published material, Lance, but here... > > > 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use my > > true avatar name as their display name? > > No. > > Wrong answer. I think the Lindens are underestimating the legal fallout that will ensue when names are abused. People are stating loud and clear what they want. Are you guys deaf? The reason the discussion is spilling over to this list is because the Lindens are apparently not inclined to do some damage control / pr on the blog. Oz, have you only been in SL for 3 months? I am a former Linden (contractor, 3 months in 2006). I care a lot that LL should succeed. I write because I am frustrated. It's been one misstep after another all these years with LL. What is happening here is a confluence of events that will lead to a mass migration to other grids and other VWs. You have the power to help do the right thing, and a limited window of opportunity to use it. Daniel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/28872664/attachment.htm From baloo at ursamundi.org Fri Aug 20 14:20:17 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:20:17 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201049.36994.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <201008201153.44382.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:15:12 +0200, Marine Kelley wrote: > The damage done to the reputation of a well known resident can be > immeasurable. It would be irresponsible of LL to let someone impersonate > someone else without giving any way to let the other people around to > see CLEARLY the difference between a user name and a display name. If you have watched Torley's video, you can see that you can clearly tell the difference between the display name and the avatar's real name. > No > amount of ToS waving and legal threatening is going to change that > because once the damage is done, it is too late. It is CAPITAL that a > display name CANNOT be mistaken with a user name, no matter how clever > the owner of the display name is. No amount of technology can overcome the ignorance of a sufficiently qualified moron. Or, to put it another way, "you can't fix stupid." It's not even worth the effort to try to fix stupid. Or to put that another way, "stupid is as stupid does." From baloo at ursamundi.org Fri Aug 20 14:25:46 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:25:46 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Off-topic chatter (Was: Display names, again.) References: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:16:04 -0500, Jacek Antonelli wrote: > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Lance Corrimal > wrote: >> Is it just me or did the lindens stop replying to this topic? > > They probably stopped replying because nearly all of the chatter about > Display Names has been off-topic and inappropriate for this list, and > continuing to discuss it here just further wastes the time of everyone > who subscribed to the list to follow the discussion about Snowglobe, > Snowstorm, and other open source projects at Linden Lab. Or asking the same stupid questions Torley answered in his video. Yes, anybody can set their display name to anything. Yes, you will still be able to tell an avatar's real name. In the real world you have name collisions; consider this as adding realism. From baloo at ursamundi.org Fri Aug 20 13:52:58 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:52:58 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:08:07 -0400, mysticaldemina-ZcVvBWsY3orQT0dZR+AlfA wrote: > And your login account isn't public so you have better security. Your login account will still be visible in the profile, and during transactions. From aklo at skyhighway.com Sat Aug 21 13:29:12 2010 From: aklo at skyhighway.com (aklo at skyhighway.com) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance Message-ID: There was some talk lately about draw distance. i mentioned that from my place if i have my draw distance turned up over about 150 i can almost count on crashing when i tp. i'm really sorry i can't describe the problem any better than that. If someone wants to tell me how i could understand it better, i'd love to listen? Anyway, i mentioned in mail to this list that it would be really cool if there were an onscreen widget like the movement & camera controls that made draw distance a lot easier to change. Please forgive me for not having already figured out how to do that myself. Just sayin' tho, it would be really nice if, like for instance, Snowglobe had either a mouse gesture, keyboard short cut, or onscreen widget (all three?) for rapidly, easily changing draw distance, i think it's a function that lots of people would use heavily. i know there's performance concerns, but if, for instance, the onscreen widget included a simple performance bar indicator that went down as the draw distance was turned up, that would communicate pretty well to all the people who didn't know better for whatever reason. The tp crash i get is just one more reason to make the setting easy to deal with. Besides, to me it seems like such a natural part of camera controls that i don't know why it's not there already? If it was me adding the feature i'd put it in the camera controls widget. i'd been using SL for several months before i even realized that draw distance was configurable. Thanks for listening! From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 13:36:12 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:36:12 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] VWR-20879 - Fix packaging/staging for VC Express Message-ID: In Oz's spirit of do first, talk later:- http://bitbucket.org/robincornelius/viewer-development-vwr-20879/changeset/994d4512db23 http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20879 If someone could review then add to the backlog etc, with this applied i can build and package viewer-development out of the box and a full version of VS also builds normally. It is currently synced with viewer-development and i can resync as necessary depending on its position in the queue. Robin From secret.argent at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 13:36:16 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:36:16 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] display names = the end of 1.x viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4c6b125e.013adc0a.7d60.ffffb8bc@mx.google.com> <0gotj7xcnb.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> <1EA62CFB82664030993C9E84C5662E58@TWEEDY64> Message-ID: <2A2C686E-1668-4217-9212-498687313CE9@gmail.com> On 2010-08-20, at 15:52, Baloo Uriza wrote: > On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:08:07 -0400, mysticaldemina-ZcVvBWsY3orQT0dZR+AlfA > wrote: >> And your login account isn't public so you have better security. > Your login account will still be visible in the profile, and during > transactions. That's one thing Blue Mars does better. Your actual login identification is by an email address they don't share with anyone, so there's no collection of login names available for bulk attacks. I really wanted LL to add another layer ABOVE the account name, not BELOW it. :) From sldev at free.fr Sat Aug 21 13:42:46 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:42:46 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100821224246.568e3d3d.sldev@free.fr> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:29:12 -0700 (PDT), aklo at skyhighway.com wrote: > There was some talk lately about draw distance. i mentioned that from my > place if i have my draw distance turned up over about 150 i can almost > count on crashing when i tp. i'm really sorry i can't describe the > problem any better than that. If someone wants to tell me how i could > understand it better, i'd love to listen? > > Anyway, i mentioned in mail to this list that it would be really cool if > there were an onscreen widget like the movement & camera controls that > made draw distance a lot easier to change. Please forgive me for not > having already figured out how to do that myself. Just sayin' tho, it > would be really nice if, like for instance, Snowglobe had either a mouse > gesture, keyboard short cut, or onscreen widget (all three?) for rapidly, > easily changing draw distance, i think it's a function that lots of > people would use heavily. i know there's performance concerns, but if, > for instance, the onscreen widget included a simple performance bar > indicator that went down as the draw distance was turned up, that would > communicate pretty well to all the people who didn't know better for > whatever reason. > > The tp crash i get is just one more reason to make the setting easy to > deal with. Besides, to me it seems like such a natural part of camera > controls that i don't know why it's not there already? If it was me > adding the feature i'd put it in the camera controls widget. i'd been > using SL for several months before i even realized that draw distance was > configurable. You just described what already exists in the Cool VL Viewer (which v1.25 branch is also based off Snowglobe v1.5): http://sldev.free.fr/ Henri. From merov at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 13:58:09 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:58:09 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] SCRUM question: negative daily velocity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Moriz Gupte wrote: > May I venture to share these questions: > Regarding the snowstorm sprint2 backlog: I have always tried to observe > other teams using scrum and I have a question regarding negative daily > velocity values. I am not familiar with this and am thinking if this is the > case, then it could mean that burndown graph Y axis would need negative > values as well?? What does negative daily velocity actually mean? just a > reflection of a task having been underestimated? > I'm not the Scrum Master (it's Esbee :) ) but I think the issue with the scrum spreadsheet is 2 folds: 1. contingent reason - I (and may be others) was confused as to what to report in the daily hours for each task. I was putting the time spent instead of the time remaining on a task so it never got to zero. I see "Done" tasks still mentioning time which seems strange. Today, I fixed my tasks looking at how Esbee have done with hers, i.e. chipping down time from the total. 2. scrum reason - As we go through a task, we may (and often do) discover new problems that need fixing and that we end up adding to the tally. That actually creates a "negative velocity" if all you look at is the burndown chart, i.e. the total remaining. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/c91839b3/attachment-0001.htm From armin.weatherwax at googlemail.com Sat Aug 21 14:52:10 2010 From: armin.weatherwax at googlemail.com (Armin Weatherwax) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 23:52:10 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 56 In-Reply-To: <4C6FFA79.80400@lindenlab.com> References: <4C6E8496.90103@gmail.com> <4C6FFA79.80400@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201008212352.10427.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) schrieb: > On 2010-08-20 9:35, Daniel wrote: > > What I would*really* like to see as a builder, and someone with > > two widescreen monitors, is the ability to drag floaters completely > > outside the perspective view area. For me, they just get in the > > way of seeing what I am doing. How much work would be required to > > enable that I have no idea. > > I'd really like that one too, and I don't even really qualify as a > builder. > > Unfortunately, it doesn't qualify as 'easy', but it is marked as a > High priority item on the Snowstorm backlog. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-375 is a great approach for that. Using Dzonatas interface I do not only have my (for example) chat floater on a different screen, the differet screen is also attached to a different computer. Pretty cool, really. :) Armin From baloo at ursamundi.org Sat Aug 21 14:45:46 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:45:46 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C70064F.9050903@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:20:38 -0700, Daniel Smith wrote: > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < > oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > >> Actually, I think that the answers to your questions are clear from >> the published material, Lance, but here... >> >> > 1. Will there be procedures in place to prevent someone else to use >> > my true avatar name as their display name? >> >> No. >> >> > Wrong answer. I think the Lindens are underestimating the legal fallout > that will ensue when names are abused. People are stating loud and > clear what they want. Are you guys deaf? I think you're severely overestimating the sanctimony about this issue from people who aren't you. > I am a former Linden (contractor, 3 months in 2006). Yeah, good luck ever doing that again with that attitude. From carlo at alinoe.com Sat Aug 21 15:14:59 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:14:59 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] VWR-20879 - Fix packaging/staging for VC Express In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100821221459.GB12974@alinoe.com> I don't know phyton, but looking at the patch the following question comes to mind: This first looks for VisualStudio/8.0, and then for VisualStudio/9.0 then for VCExpress/8.0 and finally for VCExpress/9.0. Is it possible that a different order of searching would make more sense in some cases? On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 09:36:12PM +0100, Robin Cornelius wrote: > In Oz's spirit of do first, talk later:- > > http://bitbucket.org/robincornelius/viewer-development-vwr-20879/changeset/994d4512db23 > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20879 > > If someone could review then add to the backlog etc, with this applied > i can build and package viewer-development out of the box and a full > version of VS also builds normally. > > It is currently synced with viewer-development and i can resync as > necessary depending on its position in the queue. > > Robin > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Carlo Wood From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 15:28:29 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:28:29 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: Thanks. I guess it makes sense to make a page that is less confusing, especially for people who do not want to build standalone. You shouldn't throw away anything (except the old stuff at the bottom). I think it would be very good to avoid duplicates too: probably best to just refer to a different page for stuff that applies to both standalone and non-standalone, so that it won't exist twice on two different pages! On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:05 AM, Opensource Obscure wrote: > > Aleric, you made a great job with your documention effort! > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) > now this page is surely more useful than in the past. However, > it's still a very long document (not your fault, there's very old > stuff there) and I think we can make it even easier > to read, to use, and to mantain as well. > > So I propose to split the docs: "building for standalone" vs. > "building non-standalone". Just because otherwise it's too long. > > As a first step toward this I created this version of the page: > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Opensource_Obscure/Compiling_the_viewer_(Linux) > > There I removed anything related to Standalone, plus > paragraph #10 and following, as there is a note that says > "Everything below is probably outdated" (we can add that > stuff later if/when verified). Feel free to edit. > > If we think this is a good idea we can complete the work, > then split the docs and create a separate page, for example > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_a_standalone_viewer_(Linux) > > Opensource Obscure > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/0686205d/attachment.htm From armin.weatherwax at googlemail.com Sat Aug 21 15:38:06 2010 From: armin.weatherwax at googlemail.com (Armin Weatherwax) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:38:06 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> Message-ID: <201008220038.06566.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> Aleric Inglewood schrieb: > Thanks. I guess it makes sense to make a page that is less confusing, > especially for people who do not want to build standalone. You > shouldn't throw away anything (except the old stuff at the bottom). > I think it would be very good to avoid duplicates too: probably best > to just refer to a different page for stuff that applies to both > standalone and non-standalone, so that it won't exist twice on two > different pages! + think about renaming the "non-standalone" build to something easy to understand and what it actually is. "default" for example. Armin From arrehn at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 16:08:24 2010 From: arrehn at gmail.com (Arrehn Oberlander) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:08:24 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <-1102826829278121746@unknownmsgid> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> <217553653821462739@unknownmsgid> <1686389A-402F-40E4-9586-2DA92F763C9E@katharineberry.co.uk> <-1102826829278121746@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: As someone who was using the Emerald viewer at the time this was going on, I researched this subject with some concern. It doesn't matter who the target was at all, whether he is a good guy or a bad guy, it's not of consequence. ModularSystems is responsible for using my login process to send a sizeable body of undisclosed, irrelevant traffic to harass someone. This isn't just 'embarassing', it's unacceptable from inception to execution. This simply adds to the ongoing pattern of Third Party Viewer Policy violations already exposed regarding ModularSystems builds of Emerald that speak to a culture of irresponsibility in the persons that control the ModularSystems site. I am not lawyer, but just looking at the third party viewer policy I can pick out a number of criteria that might not be met. TPVP 2.d : "You must not launch Denial of Service ("DoS") attacks, engage in griefing, or distribute other functionality that Linden Lab considers harmful or disruptive to Second Life or the Second Life community. " This appears to be violated by code in the viewer's login page http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jD_B973EpVUJ:modularsystems.sl/app/login/+http://modularsystems.sl/app/login/ TPVP 1.C.iii There must be disclosure of "Any surprising or unexpected functionality, including any limitations on features and functionality generally available to Second Life users through Linden Lab's viewers.". The leakage of pathnames in by emdku code does not appear to have been disclosed, despite it being an internal topic of discussion months earlier. The leakage of any information, regardless of how innocent, to other avatars via the path of baked textures hasn't been disclosed even now to my knowledge. TPVP 3.B.iii Distribution must adhere to the terms of the GPL 2.0. ModularSystems may not be distributing emkdu in a way that qualifies it as a separate work under the GPL. It's transparently distributed to the user's system without notification. No alternatives (such as llkdu, openjpeg) or opt-out options are presented, and the library is linked by the emerald runtime. Since the emkdu source is not distributed, the distribution of the viewer may be in violation. Compare this with other viewers such as CoolViewer and Imprudence with specifically deal with distribution of closed source binaries as a completely separate, user-initiated, optional process to fullfill GPL 2.0 compliance. TPVP 6.3 : "Your Second Life accounts must be in good standing, must not be suspended, and must not have been permanently banned or terminated". The operators of the Modular Systems website possess accounts that have been permanently banned or terminated and readily acknowledge this. === Beyond the above, the way in which these issues were addressed are concerning. The emdku issue was only addressed because someone from outside ModularSystems exposed it. The DDoS came to light because it was exposed from the outside. There may not be a history of ModularSystems successfully policing themselves. It appears that those who try end up leaving the project. External communication similarly does not inspire confidence. On the ModularSystem web page, there is no mention of emkdu and how in released builds it leaked information. Neither is there a patch or new download listed. The tone of communication is slanted to draw diminish critics, instead of clearly articulate information for users to make an informed decision. As a user I had to read other blogs and talk to developer peers personally to find out what was really happening. ModularSystems didn't tell me. On this thread an Emerald developer stated that many of these issues stem from the people who control ModularSystems being less than responsible and embarrassing the team. One has to ask if this is the case, why not vote "No Confidence" and move your website and your builds to someplace with greater credibility, and change LL's official point of contact for Emerald from "ModularSystems" to something else? From nickyperian at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 16:21:49 2010 From: nickyperian at yahoo.com (Nicky Perian) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] SSH authentication In-Reply-To: <4C6DACA5.8040102@lindenlab.com> References: <4C6D29C2.8010803@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <4C6DACA5.8040102@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <573291.35364.qm@web43509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> How do you do this in windows. Can you take your local key from Linux? ________________________________ From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: Boroondas Gupte Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 5:13:57 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] SSH authentication On 2010-08-19 8:55, Boroondas Gupte wrote: IMPEDIMENTS >> * (minor) Can't get >>ssh authentication >>to hg.secondlife.com/bitbucket.org working >> What exactly isn't working there? Have you followed the steps at >>http://bitbucket.org/help/UsingSSH ? I think it works fine for me (and others), >>so let us know if we can help in any way. I think it was actually some error in how I'd constructed the key I was using. Aimee walked me through what she was doing, and now I've got it working. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/82a96137/attachment-0001.htm From marc at inworlddesigns.com Sat Aug 21 16:23:56 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:23:56 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <-1102826829278121746@unknownmsgid> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid> <217553653821462739@unknownmsgid> <1686389A-402F-40E4-9586-2DA92F763C9E@katharineberry.co.uk> <-1102826829278121746@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: This was an attempt to do 1 of 2 things or both. There is no denying it because every other "excuse" I've seen is pure bull and doesn't even make sense. The person responsible for doing this was either arrogant enough to think that the userbase was large enough and there was enough people logging in that putting links to a site could cause it issues or they figured the extra traffic could financially harm the person paying for the service or both. This crap about boasting traffic I really don't get. I don't see why anyone would accept something that doesn't even make sense. How are you boasting traffic by hiding any knowledge of what your doing to boast? How is any person that matters going to notice a bunch of hidden iframes on the login page? Where they boasting to the owner of the website? There are much more legal ways of "boasting" your traffic. They did post traffic stats which is what I see as boasting but hiding iframes isn't even in the same ballpark as boasting. It was a pissing match between 2 or more devs on different projects and they used their userbase in illegal activity. People saying it was "hardly" a DDos are trying to discredit what it was. When it comes to laws there really isn't no "kind of" breaking the law. Just because someones arrogance prevents them from doing something successfully doesn't make the attempt any less illegal. If you steel something from a store and get caught before you leave the store you still get in trouble. Also discrediting the victim was not a bright idea either because frankly it doesn't matter not one bit who the victim was or what they are guilty of. The old saying stands here 2 wrongs don't make a right. Linden must act according to this. They should not be biased in any manor. The facts are emerald violated the trust of their users and they have done so a few times and do nothing to correct the problem. They violated the TPV policy a few times also that should at least warrant removal from the TPV list AT LEAST. I wouldn't recommend banning the client because a lot of people use it but removing them from the TPV list will definitely send a message and maybe MAYBE they will try to fix the structure of the project so that someone can be held responsible for changes to important parts of the viewer. Also I would think that the emdku crap they are putting in the viewer violates the TPV simply because no body can see what gets added because of it. They could be transmitting every bit of our information somewhere and no body knows. I wouldn't put it past some of the devs after what I've seen and the secrecy that is growing from within. I want everyone to know that I am not an emerald hater. I love emerald and I still use it occasionally but I only use a copy I have compiled myself. I do not trust dev's of an opensource project who have something they want to hide from everyone specially ones with the backgrounds of certain dev's on the emerald team. I would also like to say that had this been a "first offence" it might be different and the "we didnt know" excuse might have flown but considering there are a few dev's that have had repeated headlines that make them out to be liars and script kiddies with known "not so legal" retaliation habits a bit more drastic measures should be taken. its like disciplining your child. if you threaten and threaten but never act eventually they learn they can do whatever they want and not get in trouble. the TPV means nothing if its not enforced. From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 16:27:47 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:27:47 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] VWR-20879 - Fix packaging/staging for VC Express In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7060F3.4090905@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-21 16:36, Robin Cornelius wrote: > In Oz's spirit of do first, talk later:- > > http://bitbucket.org/robincornelius/viewer-development-vwr-20879/changeset/994d4512db23 > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20879 > > If someone could review then add to the backlog etc, with this applied > i can build and package viewer-development out of the box and a full > version of VS also builds normally. I've added it to the sprint list under an existing heading, but we've added as much in the way of "build improvements" as we can to this list. > It is currently synced with viewer-development and i can resync as > necessary depending on its position in the queue. Can we get confirmation from users other than Robin that using his change enables them to build using one of the tools it adds (preferably users who do not have VS 2005 installed)? From djshag at hotmail.com Sat Aug 21 16:30:50 2010 From: djshag at hotmail.com (Patnad Babii) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:30:50 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net><1488893803028453587@unknownmsgid><217553653821462739@unknownmsgid><1686389A-402F-40E4-9586-2DA92F763C9E@katharineberry.co.uk><-1102826829278121746@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: What emerald has been doing is exactly what BOTNET does, it is against laws and I believe they should be prosecuted. It is a felony and is punished in alot of states for as much as 10 years in prison. LL should show no mercy for them, cause if they let allow this (this is not the first time Emerald devs has been caught), what next is gonna happen? a new viewer that will crash random websites? Or maybe it could be used to introduce other malicious code to steal identity, steal Credit cards, steal bank info? -----Message d'origine----- From: Arrehn Oberlander Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 7:08 PM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? As someone who was using the Emerald viewer at the time this was going on, I researched this subject with some concern. It doesn't matter who the target was at all, whether he is a good guy or a bad guy, it's not of consequence. ModularSystems is responsible for using my login process to send a sizeable body of undisclosed, irrelevant traffic to harass someone. This isn't just 'embarassing', it's unacceptable from inception to execution. This simply adds to the ongoing pattern of Third Party Viewer Policy violations already exposed regarding ModularSystems builds of Emerald that speak to a culture of irresponsibility in the persons that control the ModularSystems site. I am not lawyer, but just looking at the third party viewer policy I can pick out a number of criteria that might not be met. TPVP 2.d : "You must not launch Denial of Service ("DoS") attacks, engage in griefing, or distribute other functionality that Linden Lab considers harmful or disruptive to Second Life or the Second Life community. " This appears to be violated by code in the viewer's login page http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jD_B973EpVUJ:modularsystems.sl/app/login/+http://modularsystems.sl/app/login/ TPVP 1.C.iii There must be disclosure of "Any surprising or unexpected functionality, including any limitations on features and functionality generally available to Second Life users through Linden Lab's viewers.". The leakage of pathnames in by emdku code does not appear to have been disclosed, despite it being an internal topic of discussion months earlier. The leakage of any information, regardless of how innocent, to other avatars via the path of baked textures hasn't been disclosed even now to my knowledge. TPVP 3.B.iii Distribution must adhere to the terms of the GPL 2.0. ModularSystems may not be distributing emkdu in a way that qualifies it as a separate work under the GPL. It's transparently distributed to the user's system without notification. No alternatives (such as llkdu, openjpeg) or opt-out options are presented, and the library is linked by the emerald runtime. Since the emkdu source is not distributed, the distribution of the viewer may be in violation. Compare this with other viewers such as CoolViewer and Imprudence with specifically deal with distribution of closed source binaries as a completely separate, user-initiated, optional process to fullfill GPL 2.0 compliance. TPVP 6.3 : "Your Second Life accounts must be in good standing, must not be suspended, and must not have been permanently banned or terminated". The operators of the Modular Systems website possess accounts that have been permanently banned or terminated and readily acknowledge this. === Beyond the above, the way in which these issues were addressed are concerning. The emdku issue was only addressed because someone from outside ModularSystems exposed it. The DDoS came to light because it was exposed from the outside. There may not be a history of ModularSystems successfully policing themselves. It appears that those who try end up leaving the project. External communication similarly does not inspire confidence. On the ModularSystem web page, there is no mention of emkdu and how in released builds it leaked information. Neither is there a patch or new download listed. The tone of communication is slanted to draw diminish critics, instead of clearly articulate information for users to make an informed decision. As a user I had to read other blogs and talk to developer peers personally to find out what was really happening. ModularSystems didn't tell me. On this thread an Emerald developer stated that many of these issues stem from the people who control ModularSystems being less than responsible and embarrassing the team. One has to ask if this is the case, why not vote "No Confidence" and move your website and your builds to someplace with greater credibility, and change LL's official point of contact for Emerald from "ModularSystems" to something else? _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 16:33:19 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:33:19 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] SSH authentication In-Reply-To: <573291.35364.qm@web43509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4C6D29C2.8010803@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <4C6DACA5.8040102@lindenlab.com> <573291.35364.qm@web43509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C70623F.4080204@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-21 19:21, Nicky Perian wrote: > How do you do this in windows. Can you take your local key from Linux? There are two different key formats, but most ssh implementations have a tool to convert one to the other (which begs the question.... never mind). Keys should be portable across platforms. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/afc5cd05/attachment.htm From phox at modularsystems.sl Sat Aug 21 16:48:48 2010 From: phox at modularsystems.sl (Phox) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:48:48 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> I feel I need to take a moment here to address some of this: First of all, the issue with the login screen was NOT an attempt at DDOS, Fractured was looking at traffic graphs for the website in question and thought it would be funny to mess with them by making the traffic go from ~150 hits a day to several hundred thousand. He was simply messing with page views on the site, it was a stupid thing to do no doubt, but it was not a DDOS attack. The website in question suffered no ill effects, and to imply that loading a .php and a few images is an attempt at DDOS is just ridiculous, our login page consists of a .php script a hi-res picture, and our website doesn't go down as a result. As far as emkdu goes: the issue originally brought to my attention (I'm the developer who maintains emkdu) was that linux and mac versions were encoding a full path which COULD include a username. I corrected that issue as soon as it was brought to my attention. The so called "second" incident involved the path being encoded on windows, at the time, I saw no reason to update the windows version of emkdu because path on windows was simply "c:\Program Files\Emerald\", there was no important information there. When I realized that if a user decided to install to desktop it would include their operating system username, I changed the windows copy as well. (Since then, all additional metadata information has been removed from emkdu). The change in encryption was simply a result of inertia being able to decode the viewer window title information. Users of that viewer were using the window title information in order to target users of older Emerald viewers with crash exploits and similar. Phox ModularSystems. On 8/21/2010 7:21 PM, opensource-dev-request at lists.secondlife.com wrote: > As someone who was using the Emerald viewer at the time this was going > on, I researched this subject with some concern. > > It doesn't matter who the target was at all, whether he is a good guy > or a bad guy, it's not of consequence. ModularSystems is responsible > for using my login process to send a sizeable body of undisclosed, > irrelevant traffic to harass someone. This isn't just 'embarassing', > it's unacceptable from inception to execution. > > This simply adds to the ongoing pattern of Third Party Viewer Policy > violations already exposed regarding ModularSystems builds of Emerald > that speak to a culture of irresponsibility in the persons that > control the ModularSystems site. I am not lawyer, but just looking at > the third party viewer policy I can pick out a number of criteria that > might not be met. > > TPVP 2.d : "You must not launch Denial of Service ("DoS") attacks, > engage in griefing, or distribute other functionality that Linden Lab > considers harmful or disruptive to Second Life or the Second Life > community. " This appears to be violated by code in the viewer's > login pagehttp://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jD_B973EpVUJ:modularsystems.sl/app/login/+http://modularsystems.sl/app/login/ > > TPVP 1.C.iii There must be disclosure of "Any surprising or unexpected > functionality, including any limitations on features and functionality > generally available to Second Life users through Linden Lab's > viewers.". The leakage of pathnames in by emdku code does not appear > to have been disclosed, despite it being an internal topic of > discussion months earlier. The leakage of any information, regardless > of how innocent, to other avatars via the path of baked textures > hasn't been disclosed even now to my knowledge. > > TPVP 3.B.iii Distribution must adhere to the terms of the GPL 2.0. > ModularSystems may not be distributing emkdu in a way that qualifies > it as a separate work under the GPL. It's transparently distributed to > the user's system without notification. No alternatives (such as > llkdu, openjpeg) or opt-out options are presented, and the library is > linked by the emerald runtime. Since the emkdu source is not > distributed, the distribution of the viewer may be in violation. > Compare this with other viewers such as CoolViewer and Imprudence with > specifically deal with distribution of closed source binaries as a > completely separate, user-initiated, optional process to fullfill GPL > 2.0 compliance. > > TPVP 6.3 : "Your Second Life accounts must be in good standing, must > not be suspended, and must not have been permanently banned or > terminated". The operators of the Modular Systems website possess > accounts that have been permanently banned or terminated and readily > acknowledge this. > > === > > Beyond the above, the way in which these issues were addressed are > concerning. The emdku issue was only addressed because someone from > outside ModularSystems exposed it. The DDoS came to light because it > was exposed from the outside. There may not be a history of > ModularSystems successfully policing themselves. It appears that those > who try end up leaving the project. > > External communication similarly does not inspire confidence. On the > ModularSystem web page, there is no mention of emkdu and how in > released builds it leaked information. Neither is there a patch or new > download listed. The tone of communication is slanted to draw diminish > critics, instead of clearly articulate information for users to make > an informed decision. As a user I had to read other blogs and talk to > developer peers personally to find out what was really happening. > ModularSystems didn't tell me. > > On this thread an Emerald developer stated that many of these issues > stem from the people who control ModularSystems being less than > responsible and embarrassing the team. One has to ask if this is the > case, why not vote "No Confidence" and move your website and your > builds to someplace with greater credibility, and change LL's official > point of contact for Emerald from "ModularSystems" to something else? From katharine at katharineberry.co.uk Sat Aug 21 16:56:57 2010 From: katharine at katharineberry.co.uk (Katharine Berry) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:56:57 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> References: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> Message-ID: <4D0B4E0F-E8D9-43BA-9E59-43FBC9CCD2A8@katharineberry.co.uk> > our login page consists of a .php script a hi-res picture, No it doesn't. If it was a PHP script then I could've made much of the code much simpler when I made the thing. It was very deliberately not a PHP script, for reasons of load. From baloo at ursamundi.org Sat Aug 21 16:38:41 2010 From: baloo at ursamundi.org (Baloo Uriza) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:38:41 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <1l46k7xqaa.ln2@ursa-major.network.ursamundi.org> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:04:16 +0100, Thomas Grimshaw wrote: > Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. > Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but > paranoid bull. icmp echo requests can be a denial of service attack, and we're talking very small requests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smurf_attack From websuz at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 17:17:58 2010 From: websuz at gmail.com (Suz Dollar) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:17:58 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <20100821121539.GE27589@alinoe.com> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <20100821121539.GE27589@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <4C706CB6.9070009@gmail.com> Sorry, if this is a duplicate, but I didn't see it come through to the list and am assuming I did something wrong :) My biggest concern here is that the chat logs (local, group, IM) register both display and user name as a mandatory part of how chat logs work. This will forcefully create way to document that so and so was impersonating someone else and acting in a manner unacceptable to the real person. I'm not nearly as concerned that someone whose real life name is Charlene Trudeau wants her display name to be Charlene Trudeau. Esp since MY display name may become Char, or Charlene, or Char @ SkyBeam Estates or some other such whatever. But I'd really like my IM logs, and those others might quote to read something like (using the last example above ) : IM: Char @ SkyBeam Estates (Charlene.Trudeau): I wish that there was an Alt-d hot key to take you to the browser style navigation bar at the top for easy entry of a slurl or region name. That would be my preference for both viewer display and chat logs, but definitely would want to see it mandatory on chat logs for any backup needed with LL in AR situations or any other disputes. Char From websuz at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 17:31:47 2010 From: websuz at gmail.com (Suz Dollar) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:31:47 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C706FF3.5030904@gmail.com> This is one concept that I have wanted for at least four years in SL. I change draw distance multiple times a day depending on where I"m visiting. Many of my own estate regions I can use a full powered 512 draw distance. Going to my public sandbox, however, requires an instant drop to 128 or lower. Visiting my old 'hometown' of Caledon, mandates the same. And I have to be honest, the places I can still use 512 draw distance with viewer 2.x has dropped dramatically. I now usually can't use higher than 256 yet have been assured since the first beta release that there should be no performance difference between 1.23 and 2.x with regard to graphics. An easily accessible way to change draw distance would be awesome. I'm also frustrated that its so much harder with the slider to hit the magic numbers: 64, 96, 128, 256.... you get the idea. But if the slider were at least out on the main UI somewhere, my own preference being up in the navigation area, but anywhere directly accessible, would be AWESOME. Char aklo at skyhighway.com wrote: > There was some talk lately about draw distance. i mentioned that from my > place if i have my draw distance turned up over about 150 i can almost > count on crashing when i tp. i'm really sorry i can't describe the > problem any better than that. If someone wants to tell me how i could > understand it better, i'd love to listen? > > Anyway, i mentioned in mail to this list that it would be really cool if > there were an onscreen widget like the movement & camera controls that > made draw distance a lot easier to change. Please forgive me for not > having already figured out how to do that myself. Just sayin' tho, it > would be really nice if, like for instance, Snowglobe had either a mouse > gesture, keyboard short cut, or onscreen widget (all three?) for rapidly, > easily changing draw distance, i think it's a function that lots of > people would use heavily. i know there's performance concerns, but if, > for instance, the onscreen widget included a simple performance bar > indicator that went down as the draw distance was turned up, that would > communicate pretty well to all the people who didn't know better for > whatever reason. > > The tp crash i get is just one more reason to make the setting easy to > deal with. Besides, to me it seems like such a natural part of camera > controls that i don't know why it's not there already? If it was me > adding the feature i'd put it in the camera controls widget. i'd been > using SL for several months before i even realized that draw distance was > configurable. > > Thanks for listening! > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > From nickyperian at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 17:49:02 2010 From: nickyperian at yahoo.com (Nicky Perian) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] SSH authentication In-Reply-To: <4C70623F.4080204@lindenlab.com> References: <4C6D29C2.8010803@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <4C6DACA5.8040102@lindenlab.com> <573291.35364.qm@web43509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C70623F.4080204@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <308434.24575.qm@web43501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Never mind I think it info is on the hg website. ________________________________ From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: Nicky Perian Cc: Boroondas Gupte ; opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 6:33:19 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] SSH authentication On 2010-08-21 19:21, Nicky Perian wrote: How do you do this in windows. Can you take your local key from Linux? > There are two different key formats, but most ssh implementations have a tool to convert one to the other (which begs the question.... never mind). Keys should be portable across platforms. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/aeb6dcbb/attachment.htm From latifer at streamgrid.net Sat Aug 21 17:50:53 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:50:53 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> References: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:48 AM, Phox wrote: > ?I feel I need to take a moment here to address some of this: > > First of all, the issue with the login screen was NOT an attempt at > DDOS, Fractured was looking at traffic graphs for the website in > question and thought it would be funny to mess with them by making the > traffic go from ~150 hits a day to several hundred thousand. He was > simply messing with page views on the site, it was a stupid thing to do > no doubt, but it was not a DDOS attack. > > The website in question suffered no ill effects, and to imply that > loading a .php and a few images is an attempt at DDOS is just > ridiculous, our login page consists of a .php script a hi-res picture, > and our website doesn't go down as a result. Engineering an attack where several million requests a day were sent from all over the world to the affected web site most certainly qualified as DDoS. In some jurisdictions such attacks are considered criminal activity. The fact that attack was not successful is irrelevant. Motivation for such activity also makes no difference. What is relevant is that Emerald login page in effect turned every Emerald user into a part of a botnet. What is disturbing here are attempts to downplay the incident which does nothing to restore the confidence in the leadership of Modular Systems which is very unfortunate. From gareth at garethnelson.com Sat Aug 21 17:57:15 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:57:15 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> Message-ID: That's the bit that stands out - this may have been one former team member's bad idea, and it could be forgiven on the basis that it was just one former team member who has now been kicked out - except of course that the rest of the team are trying to say "it's not so bad". Surely it'd be better to say "one former member of our team had a stupid and illegal idea, we apologise for this and have taken measures to ensure our resources are not abused in the same manner again". Denying wrongdoing is never a good way to make an apology, neither is censoring comments on your blog by the way. For the record, here's my comment that didn't get through moderation: ?This was not a DDoS? Yes, it was ? and your ?apology? means nothing if you deny doing wrong and try to make it look like something merely ?silly? instead of a criminal action. Yes, it was a stupid idea ? but it was also a criminal idea. Why the hell was someone able to modify your login page to add the malicious HTML without oversight, and why are you not apologising properly? On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Latif Khalifa wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:48 AM, Phox wrote: >> ?I feel I need to take a moment here to address some of this: >> >> First of all, the issue with the login screen was NOT an attempt at >> DDOS, Fractured was looking at traffic graphs for the website in >> question and thought it would be funny to mess with them by making the >> traffic go from ~150 hits a day to several hundred thousand. He was >> simply messing with page views on the site, it was a stupid thing to do >> no doubt, but it was not a DDOS attack. >> >> The website in question suffered no ill effects, and to imply that >> loading a .php and a few images is an attempt at DDOS is just >> ridiculous, our login page consists of a .php script a hi-res picture, >> and our website doesn't go down as a result. > > Engineering an attack where several million requests a day were sent > from all over the world to the affected web site most certainly > qualified as DDoS. In some jurisdictions such attacks are considered > criminal activity. The fact that attack was not successful is > irrelevant. Motivation for such activity also makes no difference. > > What is relevant is that Emerald login page in effect turned every > Emerald user into a part of a botnet. What is disturbing here are > attempts to downplay the incident which does nothing to restore the > confidence in the leadership of Modular Systems which is very > unfortunate. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From hazim.gazov at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 18:10:34 2010 From: hazim.gazov at gmail.com (Hazim Gazov) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:10:34 -0300 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> Message-ID: I agree Gareth, but I don't believe it was a "former" team member. As far as I know, Fractured is still on the development team, and it would be hard to kick him out as he owns both the website and the sim. They've said that it was Fractured, and that some of the people on the development team had known it was going since the 9th on in a recording of them talking about the incident. Yes, it was a distributed denial of service attack. Multiple drones were involved, and access to the site was periodically impossible, I don't know how clearer it can get. It should have been obvious that I'm not equipped to handle 6500 times my regular amount of traffic just so Fractured can have a nice lol, and it definitely wasn't alright to use his own users to do so. As for the comment about "that viewer" being used to crash Emerald users on old versions of Emerald using the information EmKDU put into baked textures, it's entirely false. There are no new asset-based crashes that I can think of since the versions of Emerald that have already been blacklisted (pre-1634,) and there are no crashers in "that viewer", much less Emerald-specific ones. It was more used to tell who was using Onyx when it was pointed out to me that Onyx now pretends to be Emerald by using their Tag and channel name (but uses a different build number as they're in different repos). Makes sense after people made a big stink about Onyx having features like you might see in "those viewers", though. For example: Emerald Viewer 1.4.0.626 - Phox ModularSystems On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > That's the bit that stands out - this may have been one former team > member's bad idea, and it could be forgiven on the basis that it was > just one former team member who has now been kicked out - except of > course that the rest of the team are trying to say "it's not so bad". > > Surely it'd be better to say "one former member of our team had a > stupid and illegal idea, we apologise for this and have taken measures > to ensure our resources are not abused in the same manner again". > Denying wrongdoing is never a good way to make an apology, neither is > censoring comments on your blog by the way. > > For the record, here's my comment that didn't get through moderation: > ?This was not a DDoS? > > Yes, it was ? and your ?apology? means nothing if you deny doing wrong > and try to make it look like something merely ?silly? instead of a > criminal action. Yes, it was a stupid idea ? but it was also a > criminal idea. > > Why the hell was someone able to modify your login page to add the > malicious HTML without oversight, and why are you not apologising > properly? > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Latif Khalifa > wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:48 AM, Phox wrote: > >> I feel I need to take a moment here to address some of this: > >> > >> First of all, the issue with the login screen was NOT an attempt at > >> DDOS, Fractured was looking at traffic graphs for the website in > >> question and thought it would be funny to mess with them by making the > >> traffic go from ~150 hits a day to several hundred thousand. He was > >> simply messing with page views on the site, it was a stupid thing to do > >> no doubt, but it was not a DDOS attack. > >> > >> The website in question suffered no ill effects, and to imply that > >> loading a .php and a few images is an attempt at DDOS is just > >> ridiculous, our login page consists of a .php script a hi-res picture, > >> and our website doesn't go down as a result. > > > > Engineering an attack where several million requests a day were sent > > from all over the world to the affected web site most certainly > > qualified as DDoS. In some jurisdictions such attacks are considered > > criminal activity. The fact that attack was not successful is > > irrelevant. Motivation for such activity also makes no difference. > > > > What is relevant is that Emerald login page in effect turned every > > Emerald user into a part of a botnet. What is disturbing here are > > attempts to downplay the incident which does nothing to restore the > > confidence in the leadership of Modular Systems which is very > > unfortunate. > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > > > > -- > ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for > everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - > Printcrime by Cory Doctrow > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/99964374/attachment-0001.htm From cg at lindenlab.com Sat Aug 21 20:47:03 2010 From: cg at lindenlab.com (CG Linden) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:47:03 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Update Linux Build Documentation, please? In-Reply-To: <201008220038.06566.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> References: <20100819023632.GA6078@tacobell.nc.rr.com> <201008220038.06566.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> Message-ID: I created http://bitbucket.org/cg_linden/buildscripts and updated the wiki page at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Automated_Build_System Note that the hg repo simply contains brutally ripped out and stubbed off code which I probably won't be maintaining very regularly. I tested it and it works for me and should work for anyone who already has a working build. It only demonstrates how we do our own automated builds and should provide a useful basis should anyone wish to set up a TeamCity based build environment. ... and yeah, I use Cygwin, so some constructs are artifacts of combining native windows applications with cygwin. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/8cf21a50/attachment.htm From tateru.nino at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 20:50:16 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:50:16 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: <4C706FF3.5030904@gmail.com> References: <4C706FF3.5030904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C709E78.1030001@gmail.com> I probably use the draw-distance slider more often than any other UI widget. I'd probably map it to my mouse's scroll-wheel, if I could. On 22/08/2010 10:31 AM, Suz Dollar wrote: > This is one concept that I have wanted for at least four years in SL. I > change draw distance multiple times a day depending on where I"m > visiting. Many of my own estate regions I can use a full powered 512 > draw distance. Going to my public sandbox, however, requires an instant > drop to 128 or lower. Visiting my old 'hometown' of Caledon, mandates > the same. And I have to be honest, the places I can still use 512 draw > distance with viewer 2.x has dropped dramatically. I now usually can't > use higher than 256 yet have been assured since the first beta release > that there should be no performance difference between 1.23 and 2.x with > regard to graphics. An easily accessible way to change draw distance > would be awesome. I'm also frustrated that its so much harder with the > slider to hit the magic numbers: 64, 96, 128, 256.... you get the idea. > But if the slider were at least out on the main UI somewhere, my own > preference being up in the navigation area, but anywhere directly > accessible, would be AWESOME. > > Char > > > aklo at skyhighway.com wrote: >> There was some talk lately about draw distance. i mentioned that from my >> place if i have my draw distance turned up over about 150 i can almost >> count on crashing when i tp. i'm really sorry i can't describe the >> problem any better than that. If someone wants to tell me how i could >> understand it better, i'd love to listen? >> >> Anyway, i mentioned in mail to this list that it would be really cool if >> there were an onscreen widget like the movement& camera controls that >> made draw distance a lot easier to change. Please forgive me for not >> having already figured out how to do that myself. Just sayin' tho, it >> would be really nice if, like for instance, Snowglobe had either a mouse >> gesture, keyboard short cut, or onscreen widget (all three?) for rapidly, >> easily changing draw distance, i think it's a function that lots of >> people would use heavily. i know there's performance concerns, but if, >> for instance, the onscreen widget included a simple performance bar >> indicator that went down as the draw distance was turned up, that would >> communicate pretty well to all the people who didn't know better for >> whatever reason. >> >> The tp crash i get is just one more reason to make the setting easy to >> deal with. Besides, to me it seems like such a natural part of camera >> controls that i don't know why it's not there already? If it was me >> adding the feature i'd put it in the camera controls widget. i'd been >> using SL for several months before i even realized that draw distance was >> configurable. >> >> Thanks for listening! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From aklo at skyhighway.com Sat Aug 21 21:19:26 2010 From: aklo at skyhighway.com (aklo at skyhighway.com) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance Message-ID: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> !! YES !! If all i had to do was mouse up over the camera widget and roll the scroll button i would be *soooooo* happy! Serious. i mean, Henri's Cool VL innovation is great! And i think that even if it were a mouse wheel scrollable widget it should still have some kinda additional text box to it where numbers can be typed in. But to be able to look around like that would be MEGA-AWESOME!! (Just like opening your eyes *really* wide...!!) - AK I probably use the draw-distance slider more often than any other UI widget. I'd probably map it to my mouse's scroll-wheel, if I could. On 22/08/2010 10:31 AM, Suz Dollar wrote: > > This is one concept that I have wanted for at least four years in SL. I > > change draw distance multiple times a day depending on where I"m > > visiting. Many of my own estate regions I can use a full powered 512 > > draw distance. Going to my public sandbox, however, requires an instant > > drop to 128 or lower. Visiting my old 'hometown' of Caledon, mandates > > the same. And I have to be honest, the places I can still use 512 draw > > distance with viewer 2.x has dropped dramatically. I now usually can't > > use higher than 256 yet have been assured since the first beta release > > that there should be no performance difference between 1.23 and 2.x with > > regard to graphics. An easily accessible way to change draw distance > > would be awesome. I'm also frustrated that its so much harder with the > > slider to hit the magic numbers: 64, 96, 128, 256.... you get the idea. > > But if the slider were at least out on the main UI somewhere, my own > > preference being up in the navigation area, but anywhere directly > > accessible, would be AWESOME. > > > > Char > > > > > > aklo at skyhighway.com wrote: >> >> There was some talk lately about draw distance. i mentioned that from my >> >> place if i have my draw distance turned up over about 150 i can almost >> >> count on crashing when i tp. i'm really sorry i can't describe the >> >> problem any better than that. If someone wants to tell me how i could >> >> understand it better, i'd love to listen? >> >> >> >> Anyway, i mentioned in mail to this list that it would be really cool if >> >> there were an onscreen widget like the movement& camera controls that >> >> made draw distance a lot easier to change. Please forgive me for not >> >> having already figured out how to do that myself. Just sayin' tho, it >> >> would be really nice if, like for instance, Snowglobe had either a mouse >> >> gesture, keyboard short cut, or onscreen widget (all three?) for rapidly, >> >> easily changing draw distance, i think it's a function that lots of >> >> people would use heavily. i know there's performance concerns, but if, >> >> for instance, the onscreen widget included a simple performance bar >> >> indicator that went down as the draw distance was turned up, that would >> >> communicate pretty well to all the people who didn't know better for >> >> whatever reason. >> >> >> >> The tp crash i get is just one more reason to make the setting easy to >> >> deal with. Besides, to me it seems like such a natural part of camera >> >> controls that i don't know why it's not there already? If it was me >> >> adding the feature i'd put it in the camera controls widget. i'd been >> >> using SL for several months before i even realized that draw distance was >> >> configurable. >> >> >> >> Thanks for listening! >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From aklo at skyhighway.com Sat Aug 21 21:26:38 2010 From: aklo at skyhighway.com (aklo at skyhighway.com) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] (no subject) Message-ID: Hey! Um, i've been meaning to ask... Why don't i ever get the login screen pics with Snowglobe? i just installed the latest release (1.5.0 3625) from the website and still all i ever get are little arrow icons in the middle of a black screen. It's not all that important, i know, but i've been missing them... Is something broken, or is it me? Thx!! - AK From miro.collas at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 21:36:25 2010 From: miro.collas at gmail.com (Miro Collas) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:36:25 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> How about bbeing able to just type it in? Why a slider, or mouse wheel, which is inaccurate? How about being able to type it in chat? On 08/22/2010 12:19 AM, aklo at skyhighway.com wrote: > !! YES !! If all i had to do was mouse up over the camera widget and roll > the scroll button i would be *soooooo* happy! Serious. i mean, Henri's > Cool VL innovation is great! And i think that even if it were a mouse > wheel scrollable widget it should still have some kinda additional text > box to it where numbers can be typed in. But to be able to look around > like that would be MEGA-AWESOME!! (Just like opening your eyes *really* > wide...!!) > > - AK > > I probably use the draw-distance slider more often than any other UI > widget. I'd probably map it to my mouse's scroll-wheel, if I could. > > On 22/08/2010 10:31 AM, Suz Dollar wrote: >>> This is one concept that I have wanted for at least four years in SL. I >>> change draw distance multiple times a day depending on where I"m >>> visiting. Many of my own estate regions I can use a full powered 512 >>> draw distance. Going to my public sandbox, however, requires an instant >>> drop to 128 or lower. Visiting my old 'hometown' of Caledon, mandates >>> the same. And I have to be honest, the places I can still use 512 draw >>> distance with viewer 2.x has dropped dramatically. I now usually can't >>> use higher than 256 yet have been assured since the first beta release >>> that there should be no performance difference between 1.23 and 2.x with >>> regard to graphics. An easily accessible way to change draw distance >>> would be awesome. I'm also frustrated that its so much harder with the >>> slider to hit the magic numbers: 64, 96, 128, 256.... you get the idea. >>> But if the slider were at least out on the main UI somewhere, my own >>> preference being up in the navigation area, but anywhere directly >>> accessible, would be AWESOME. >>> >>> Char >>> >>> >>> aklo at skyhighway.com wrote: >>>>> There was some talk lately about draw distance. i mentioned that > from my >>>>> place if i have my draw distance turned up over about 150 i can almost >>>>> count on crashing when i tp. i'm really sorry i can't describe the >>>>> problem any better than that. If someone wants to tell me how i could >>>>> understand it better, i'd love to listen? >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, i mentioned in mail to this list that it would be really > cool if >>>>> there were an onscreen widget like the movement& camera controls that >>>>> made draw distance a lot easier to change. Please forgive me for not >>>>> having already figured out how to do that myself. Just sayin' tho, it >>>>> would be really nice if, like for instance, Snowglobe had either a > mouse >>>>> gesture, keyboard short cut, or onscreen widget (all three?) for > rapidly, >>>>> easily changing draw distance, i think it's a function that lots of >>>>> people would use heavily. i know there's performance concerns, but if, >>>>> for instance, the onscreen widget included a simple performance bar >>>>> indicator that went down as the draw distance was turned up, that would >>>>> communicate pretty well to all the people who didn't know better for >>>>> whatever reason. >>>>> >>>>> The tp crash i get is just one more reason to make the setting easy to >>>>> deal with. Besides, to me it seems like such a natural part of camera >>>>> controls that i don't know why it's not there already? If it was me >>>>> adding the feature i'd put it in the camera controls widget. i'd been >>>>> using SL for several months before i even realized that draw > distance was >>>>> configurable. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for listening! >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges >>> > -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe > information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 23:01:21 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 23:01:21 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Miro Collas wrote: > How about bbeing able to just type it in? Why a slider, or mouse wheel, > which is inaccurate? How about being able to type it in chat? Instead of a one off thing just for the draw distance, I'd rather we had a general command input system similar to the console on id's games. So since we use /# for the channel and /me for emotes how about /set for setting debug variables with the following syntax. /set debugvar value Where value is one of bool, integer, float, or a vector using the lsl style of <0.0, 0.0, 0.0>. With tab line completion of course. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100821/2a53288f/attachment.htm From serra.anansi at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 00:01:01 2010 From: serra.anansi at gmail.com (Serra Anansi) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 03:01:01 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> Message-ID: I like the command line in emerald, you just type in "dd 512" and it's done. ((I really like all the command lines in emerald. Took me a bit to get used to them, but after I did I am really missing them now that I came back to V2 to give it another go while you all are working on it.)) On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 2:01 AM, leliel wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Miro Collas wrote: > > > How about bbeing able to just type it in? Why a slider, or mouse wheel, > > which is inaccurate? How about being able to type it in chat? > > Instead of a one off thing just for the draw distance, I'd rather we had a > general command input system similar to the console on id's games. So since > we use /# for the channel and /me for emotes how about /set for setting > debug variables with the following syntax. > > /set debugvar value > > Where value is one of bool, integer, float, or a vector using the lsl style > of <0.0, 0.0, 0.0>. With tab line completion of course. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/4be89825/attachment-0001.htm From miro.collas at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 00:09:10 2010 From: miro.collas at gmail.com (Miro Collas) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 03:09:10 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> That's what I referring to, the command line commands. VERY handy! And dd is one I use a great deal. On 08/22/2010 03:01 AM, Serra Anansi wrote: > I like the command line in emerald, you just type in "dd 512" and it's done. > > ((I really like all the command lines in emerald. Took me a bit to get > used to them, but after I did I am really missing them now that I came > back to V2 to give it another go while you all are working on it.)) > > > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 2:01 AM, leliel > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Miro Collas > wrote: > > > How about bbeing able to just type it in? Why a slider, or mouse > wheel, > > which is inaccurate? How about being able to type it in chat? > > Instead of a one off thing just for the draw distance, I'd rather we > had a general command input system similar to the console on id's > games. So since we use /# for the channel and /me for emotes how > about /set for setting debug variables with the following syntax. > > /set debugvar value > > Where value is one of bool, integer, float, or a vector using the > lsl style of <0.0, 0.0, 0.0>. With tab line completion of course. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sun Aug 22 00:40:19 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:40:19 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display names, again. In-Reply-To: <4C70064F.9050903@lindenlab.com> References: <201008200838.44543.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C70064F.9050903@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201008220940.19855.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Saturday 21 August 2010 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > This list is really not the place for this discussion - the Display > Names blog comment area is much better. /me collapses with laughter From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 00:48:31 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:48:31 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] VWR-20879 - Fix packaging/staging for VC Express In-Reply-To: <4C7060F3.4090905@lindenlab.com> References: <4C7060F3.4090905@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: > >> It is currently synced with viewer-development and i can resync as >> necessary depending on its position in the queue. > > Can we get confirmation from users other than Robin that using his > change enables them to build using one of the tools it adds (preferably > users who do not have VS 2005 installed)? > Oz, the changes actually add express support for 2005 not specificly support for 2008, the VC90 lines were there previously, all this patch introduces is the express path if the full version of visual studio is not found. VS 2008 will still have problems there are a whole bunch of other small fixes needs for that that are all pretty well understood but need finishing under a different task. The real test here is does express now work as expected, and for me that was yes, and does Standard/Pro/Enterprise VC2005 still work as it did previously and my independent tester said it did. Robin From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 01:00:55 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:00:55 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:26 AM, wrote: > Hey! ?Um, i've been meaning to ask... ?Why don't i ever get the login > screen pics with Snowglobe? ?i just installed the latest release (1.5.0 > 3625) from the website and still all i ever get are little arrow icons in > the middle of a black screen. ?It's not all that important, i know, but > i've been missing them... ?Is something broken, or is it me? The login pictures are controlled by the login channel and grid that is passed when requesting the background page. Snowglobe passes its own login channel different to the main viewer which results in no pictures. But the choice to send pictures or not, is server dependent. Robin From makosoft at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 01:08:03 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:08:03 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> References: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> Message-ID: On 8/22/10, Phox wrote: > The website in question suffered no ill effects, and to imply that > loading a .php and a few images is an attempt at DDOS is just > ridiculous, our login page consists of a .php script a hi-res picture, > and our website doesn't go down as a result. Your website did go down because of the load, though - a whole bunch of times in fact! There's even still an entry in the Emerald FAQ about it[1]: "Due to a problem with our webhost 500 errors are increasingly common with new traffic. Please wait a few seconds and try to reload the page, it may take a few tries before you get through." The only reason it doesn't anymore is because you moved to a bunch of really chunky and expensive dedicated servers. http://blog.modularsystems.sl/2010/07/19/emerald-user-statistics/ says that you're using two of http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/eq4/ - each of which is about as powerful as some of the older Class 5 Linden Labs servers that host 4 regions each - plus a third unspecified dedicated server. Hazim was using cheap shared hosting. What's more, the guy from the Emerald project who did this knows just how much load the Emerald login screen puts on Emerald's servers, because he apparently pays for and runs them! On 8/22/10, Katharine Berry wrote: > No it doesn't. If it was a PHP script then I could've made much of the code > much simpler when I made the thing. > > It was very deliberately not a PHP script, for reasons of load. Yep, looking at the headers it's definitely static HTML. We've got an Accept-Ranges header, a Content-Length header (both of which you can get from PHP scripts but wouldn't normally), and most importantly an ETag in the same format lighttpd uses for static content. Also, the login page wasn't just making one request for a PHP-generated page from Hazim's website - it was making 20 requests for the same page. [1] http://www.modularsystems.sl/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=FAQ From aklo at skyhighway.com Sun Aug 22 01:09:08 2010 From: aklo at skyhighway.com (aklo at skyhighway.com) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Login Pic Message-ID: <42f5c26a9d5ed87a0a2bb23ad52d0b67.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> So, is it fixable? Is there some way to change the Snowglobe login channel? Or can the server be configured to respond to the channel Snowglobe already has? Or is this just something Snowglobe users should not care about? For reals, it's not important, but i miss it, & the pics are a nice touch. Thx!! - AK On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:26 AM, wrote: > > Hey! Um, i've been meaning to ask... Why don't i ever get the login > > screen pics with Snowglobe? i just installed the latest release (1.5.0 > > 3625) from the website and still all i ever get are little arrow icons in > > the middle of a black screen. It's not all that important, i know, but > > i've been missing them... Is something broken, or is it me? The login pictures are controlled by the login channel and grid that is passed when requesting the background page. Snowglobe passes its own login channel different to the main viewer which results in no pictures. But the choice to send pictures or not, is server dependent. Robin From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 01:13:49 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:13:49 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] SSH authentication In-Reply-To: <573291.35364.qm@web43509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4C6D29C2.8010803@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <4C6DACA5.8040102@lindenlab.com> <573291.35364.qm@web43509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Nicky Perian wrote: > How do you do this in windows. Can you take your local key from Linux? Yes, but you need the full key not just the public key. Puttygen part of the putty ssh suite has the ability to import/export OpenSSL keys as well as some other formats, and tortoiseHG probably uses the putty key format if you are using that/want to ssh auth from windows. Robin From m.a.daniel at iup.edu Sun Aug 22 01:36:59 2010 From: m.a.daniel at iup.edu (Michael Daniel) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 04:36:59 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party, viewers: is the policy worth anything? Message-ID: <4C70E1AB.5020106@iup.edu> Since I am a student on summer break until next week, I have way too much time on my hands, and I like numbers (famous last words) so I did some analysis of modular systems attack on iheartanime.com. I think the amount of data involved has been understated in many discussions I've seen so far, so I'll show my work, but long story short: 4.2 terrabytes of data transfer are involved with this attack (2.1 tb up and 2.1 tb down). I used the screen cap from the following URL to find exactly what was downloaded every time somebody logged in with the emerald viewer during this attack: http://alphavilleherald.com/images/2010/08/modular-bing.jpg I used Google Chrome's inspect element feature to find the sizes of the files downloaded (right click, inspect element - resources - size). This is what I came up with: http://iheartanime.com/griffblog.php?article=omnomnomnomnom 163.20k times 20 loads is 3264k http://iheartanime.com/images/emerald-explore-sounds.png 50.03k http://iheartanime.com/images/emerald-windows-disclosure.png 55.09kb http://iheartanime.com/images/emerald-mac-disclosure.png 66.90kb http://iheartanime.com/images/emerald-linux-disclosure.png 67.32kb http://iheartanime.com/images/imgsearch-v0.0.2.png 152.37k http://iheartanime.com/images/FRIENDLY%20GREETINGS.jpg 77.32k http://iheartanime.com/images/inertia-test.jpg 113.51k http://iheartanime.com/images/inertia-login.jpg ` 25.78k http://iheartanime.com/images/inuyertia.jpg 153.68k http://iheartanime.com/images/neillife.jpg 102.22k http://iheartanime.com/images/background-v2.png 130.64k http://iheartanime.com/images/background.png 77.40k Total size: 4336.26kb, or 4.33626mb per emerald login. According to the alphaville herald article, "Gazov told the Herald he saw 16,541,673 page hits referred by the Emerald login pages over three days". I'm sure he has the server logs to back him up, so lets see what happens if we take him at his word (which I would do, as he seems pretty honest to me). link: http://alphavilleherald.com/2010/08/emerald-viewer-login-screen-sneak-ddos-attack.html I count 32 page hits per login, so we divide 16541673 by 32 to get the number of emerald logins during the attack. 16541673 hits / 32 page loads = 516927.28125 logins from emerald Since it's not an even number, Hazim's numbers must be off a bit. That is no surprise, since his server was under such strain. Lets round it up to 516928 logins from emerald during the attack. 510678 logins during the attack * 4.33626mb requested per login = 2214432.58428mb requested from iheartanime.com I used an online calculator at the following link to translate that into terrabytes: http://www.matisse.net/bitcalc/ It works out to 2.11184748104095 Terrabytes of bandwidth stolen from Hazim in 3 days! As we all know, this bandwidth was not just stolen from Hazim. It was also stolen from Emerald users, so if we multiply that by two we get a grand total of 4.22369496154786 terrabyts stolen in three days. To make this more concrete, that's over 4.2 tb of transfer. If you'll pardon the archaic reference, the library of congress, if compressed, could fit into 4.2 tb almost two times. That's a lot of data. Citation for LOC measurement: http://bit.ly/9TRWUX The crazy part is that modular systems shows absolutely no remorse at all for stealing Hazim's bandwidth. Most hosts give unlimited bandwidth, but some do not. If, for example, his hosting was at nextpoint.net, their hosting plans all come with 2000gb of transfer, so he would have gone over by 162.53182058594gb. They charge $4.50 per gb for overage, so that would have worked out to $731.39 in damages to Hazim, not counting his regular traffic. Aren't there laws against this kind of thing? Nextpoint.net reference: http://www.nexpoint.net/support/policies/billing.cfm Video of the emerald team talking about how ridiculous it would be to apologize to Hazim, among other things: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmVj9u7C3U Somebody in the video (I'm assuming the person is Arabella Steadham) said, "I'm not going to apologize to Hazim, I mean, why would I?," as others agree that they could care less about him. They also said that their users take their account names and passwords too seriously. I don't see how the third party directory can retain any respectability at all if they don't remove Emerald. I'd be happy if each and every member of Modular Systems was banned from SL, but I know there are politics involved, so that probably won't happen. Anyway, I'm sorry if I distracted this list from more important things going on with snowstorm. Given the discussion going on in this thread, I thought some people on this list might find these numbers interesting. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with for snowstorm at the end of the first sprint. Cheers! ~Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 02:09:02 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:09:02 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Miro Collas wrote: > > That's what I referring to, the command line commands. VERY handy! And > dd is one I use a great deal. The problem I have with that is that the draw distance is only one of several debug settings that affect performance. I've been running with deferred rendering enabled for the past few months and I've had to enable/disable shadow maps & SSAO all the time, but I hardly ever touch the draw distance. What's more, using a general method of changing debug settings through chat would let us create gestures that changed a whole group of settings all at the same time. So when entering a laggy sim you could trigger one gesture that did all of this. /set RenderFarClip 128 /set RenderVolumeLODFactor 2.0 /set WindLightUseAtmosShaders 0 With a system like this you could change any setting on the fly without ever having to open the UI which would be great for filming machinima. Cam into a building and turn on global illumination and crank up the SSAO settings for deep highlights, cam back out and put SSAO back to the defaults and turn off GI for a better frame rate. From miro.collas at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 02:21:06 2010 From: miro.collas at gmail.com (Miro Collas) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 05:21:06 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C70EC02.4090709@gmail.com> That makes sense yes. I wasn't asking for Emerald to be copied, which is why my initial response to the issue was vague. But the basic idea is nice, I think: a nice, fast and easy way to set parameters without having to use clumsy sliders and navigate pages of dialog boxes, all via the command line. On 08/22/2010 05:09 AM, leliel wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Miro Collas wrote: >> >> That's what I referring to, the command line commands. VERY handy! And >> dd is one I use a great deal. > > The problem I have with that is that the draw distance is only one of > several debug settings that affect performance. I've been running with > deferred rendering enabled for the past few months and I've had to > enable/disable shadow maps& SSAO all the time, but I hardly ever > touch the draw distance. What's more, using a general method of > changing debug settings through chat would let us create gestures that > changed a whole group of settings all at the same time. So when > entering a laggy sim you could trigger one gesture that did all of > this. > > /set RenderFarClip 128 > /set RenderVolumeLODFactor 2.0 > /set WindLightUseAtmosShaders 0 > > With a system like this you could change any setting on the fly > without ever having to open the UI which would be great for filming > machinima. Cam into a building and turn on global illumination and > crank up the SSAO settings for deep highlights, cam back out and put > SSAO back to the defaults and turn off GI for a better frame rate. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 02:36:18 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:36:18 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 10:09 AM, leliel wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Miro Collas wrote: >> >> That's what I referring to, the command line commands. VERY handy! And >> dd is one I use a great deal. > /set RenderFarClip 128 > /set RenderVolumeLODFactor 2.0 > /set WindLightUseAtmosShaders 0 > > With a system like this you could change any setting on the fly > without ever having to open the UI which would be great for filming > machinima. Cam into a building and turn on global illumination and > crank up the SSAO settings for deep highlights, cam back out and put > SSAO back to the defaults and turn off GI for a better frame rate. Thats a powerful idea, is there a new feature JIRA for this on the LL pJIRA currenty? if not could I kindly ask you to create one for it and post the issue number back here. The problem comes is its not just a case of updating the gSavedSettings with new values (which would be very easy to do in the way you have described). Many of the settings need "applying" in some way to push the correct values to the correct place, many of the debug settings would just work but some would not and thats where the work for this feature would start, but i do like where you are comming from with this. Robin From open at autistici.org Sun Aug 22 02:50:12 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:50:12 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:36:18 +0100, Robin Cornelius wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 10:09 AM, leliel wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Miro Collas >> wrote: >>> >>> That's what I referring to, the command line commands. VERY handy! And >>> dd is one I use a great deal. btw, recent Kirstens releases handily embed the draw distance slider into the 2.x menu upper bar. >> /set RenderFarClip 128 >> /set RenderVolumeLODFactor 2.0 >> /set WindLightUseAtmosShaders 0 >> >> With a system like this you could change any setting on the fly >> without ever having to open the UI which would be great for filming >> machinima. Cam into a building and turn on global illumination and >> crank up the SSAO settings for deep highlights, cam back out and put >> SSAO back to the defaults and turn off GI for a better frame rate. > > Thats a powerful idea, is there a new feature JIRA for this on the LL > pJIRA currenty? if not could I kindly ask you to create one for it and > post the issue number back here. +1 I like a lot leliel's suggestion about Windlight control via commandline, especially because I guess that would evolve into gestures = tradeable assets (correct?) Opensource Obscure From martin at traumwind.de Sun Aug 22 03:00:18 2010 From: martin at traumwind.de (Martin Spernau) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:00:18 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D68C65B-4A0C-4FF6-891F-00BF97207098@traumwind.de> > I like a lot leliel's suggestion about Windlight control > via commandline, especially because I guess that would > evolve into gestures = tradeable assets (correct?) Assuming that everyone using that gesture has the same windlight prefs installed, probably yes. That's also assuming that the currently used windlight pref can be se via debug settimngs -Martin From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 03:20:34 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 03:20:34 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Robin Cornelius wrote: > > Thats a powerful idea, is there a new feature JIRA for this on the LL > pJIRA currenty? if not could I kindly ask you to create one for it and > post the issue number back here. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20887 > The problem comes is its not just a case of updating the > gSavedSettings with new values (which would be very easy to do in the > way you have described). Many of the settings need "applying" in some > way to push the correct values to the correct place, many of the debug > settings would just work but some would not and thats where the work > for this feature would start, but i do like where you are comming from > with this. One thing I'd like to happen before this feature is implemented is to clean up the debug settings name space. There are too many settings with random, nonsensical names. I suppose we could copy id and put everything having to do with rendering under r_ and everything for the UI under ui_ and so on. From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Sun Aug 22 04:59:03 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:59:03 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Login Pic In-Reply-To: <42f5c26a9d5ed87a0a2bb23ad52d0b67.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> References: <42f5c26a9d5ed87a0a2bb23ad52d0b67.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: <4C711107.90604@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 08/22/2010 10:09 AM, aklo at skyhighway.com wrote: > So, is it fixable? Yes, but the proper fix would be server side, so we volunteers can't do it. (Except we would create our own login page altogether and point the viewer at that. Dunno how good an idea that would be.) > Is there some way to change the Snowglobe login > channel? Yes, see the |--channel| option on the Viewer parameters page. For third party viewers (shouldn't apply to Snowglobe, just mentioning it for completeness), please be aware of the Channel and Version Requirements imposed by the TPV policy . > Or can the server be configured to respond to the channel > Snowglobe already has? I certainly assume so. I don't know how much work that'd be for LL, though, but I guess it can't be very much. > Or is this just something Snowglobe users should > not care about? These little things are important, especially if they have relatively easy fixes. Of course this on here doesn't significantly affect usability, but it does have influence on the overall impression. Even although Snowstorm might now have priority, this issue should be fixed. (I thought I'd have seen a JIRA issue about this some time ago, but can't seem to find it again.) cheers Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/9e49b81d/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 05:16:16 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:16:16 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party, viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <4C70E1AB.5020106@iup.edu> References: <4C70E1AB.5020106@iup.edu> Message-ID: I've reported emerald for violating this clause of the TPV policy: "You must not launch Denial of Service (?DoS?) attacks, engage in griefing, or distribute other functionality that Linden Lab considers harmful or disruptive to Second Life or the Second Life community." So, hopefully that'll be the end of it, hopefully...... On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Michael Daniel wrote: > Since I am a student on summer break until next week, I have way too > much time on my hands, and I like numbers (famous last words) so I did > some analysis of modular systems attack on iheartanime.com. > > I think the amount of data involved has been understated in many > discussions I've seen so far, so I'll show my work, but long story > short: ?4.2 terrabytes of data transfer are involved with this attack > (2.1 tb up and 2.1 tb down). > > I used the screen cap from the following URL to find exactly what was > downloaded every time somebody logged in with the emerald viewer during > this attack: > http://alphavilleherald.com/images/2010/08/modular-bing.jpg > > I used Google Chrome's inspect element feature to find the sizes of the > files downloaded (right click, inspect element - resources - size). > > This is what I came up with: > > http://iheartanime.com/griffblog.php?article=omnomnomnomnom ? ? 163.20k > ?times 20 loads is 3264k > http://iheartanime.com/images/emerald-explore-sounds.png > 50.03k > http://iheartanime.com/images/emerald-windows-disclosure.png ? ? ? ?55.09kb > http://iheartanime.com/images/emerald-mac-disclosure.png > 66.90kb > http://iheartanime.com/images/emerald-linux-disclosure.png > ? ?67.32kb > http://iheartanime.com/images/imgsearch-v0.0.2.png > ? ? 152.37k > http://iheartanime.com/images/FRIENDLY%20GREETINGS.jpg ? ? ? ?77.32k > http://iheartanime.com/images/inertia-test.jpg > ? ? ? ? ? ? ?113.51k > http://iheartanime.com/images/inertia-login.jpg ? ?` > ? ? ? ? ? ?25.78k > http://iheartanime.com/images/inuyertia.jpg > ? ? ? ? ? ?153.68k > http://iheartanime.com/images/neillife.jpg > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?102.22k > http://iheartanime.com/images/background-v2.png > ? ?130.64k > http://iheartanime.com/images/background.png > ? ? ? ?77.40k > > Total size: ?4336.26kb, or 4.33626mb per emerald login. > > According to the alphaville herald article, "Gazov told the Herald he > saw 16,541,673 page hits referred by the Emerald login pages over three > days". ?I'm sure he has the server logs to back him up, so lets see what > happens if we take him at his word (which I would do, as he seems pretty > honest to me). > link: > http://alphavilleherald.com/2010/08/emerald-viewer-login-screen-sneak-ddos-attack.html > > I count 32 page hits per login, so we divide 16541673 by 32 to get the > number of emerald logins during the attack. > 16541673 hits / 32 page loads = 516927.28125 logins from emerald > > Since it's not an even number, Hazim's numbers must be off a bit. ?That > is no surprise, since his server was under such strain. ?Lets round it > up to 516928 logins from emerald during the attack. > > 510678 logins during the attack * 4.33626mb requested per login = > 2214432.58428mb requested from iheartanime.com > > I used an online calculator at the following link to translate that into > terrabytes: > http://www.matisse.net/bitcalc/ > > It works out to 2.11184748104095 Terrabytes of bandwidth stolen from > Hazim in 3 days! > > As we all know, this bandwidth was not just stolen from Hazim. ?It was > also stolen from Emerald users, so if we multiply that by two we get a > grand total of 4.22369496154786 terrabyts stolen in three days. ?To make > this more concrete, that's over 4.2 tb of transfer. ?If you'll pardon > the archaic reference, the library of congress, if compressed, could fit > into 4.2 tb almost two times. ?That's a lot of data. > Citation for LOC measurement: ?http://bit.ly/9TRWUX > > The crazy part is that modular systems shows absolutely no remorse at > all for stealing Hazim's bandwidth. ?Most hosts give unlimited > bandwidth, but some do not. ?If, for example, his hosting was at > nextpoint.net, their hosting plans all come with 2000gb of transfer, so > he would have gone over by 162.53182058594gb. ?They charge $4.50 per gb > for overage, so that would have worked out to $731.39 in damages to > Hazim, not counting his regular traffic. ?Aren't there laws against this > kind of thing? > > Nextpoint.net reference: > http://www.nexpoint.net/support/policies/billing.cfm > > Video of the emerald team talking about how ridiculous it would be to > apologize to Hazim, among other things: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmVj9u7C3U > > Somebody in the video (I'm assuming the person is Arabella Steadham) > said, "I'm not going to apologize to Hazim, I mean, why would I?," as > others agree that they could care less about him. ?They also said that > their users take their account names and passwords too seriously. > > I don't see how the third party directory can retain any respectability > at all if they don't remove Emerald. ?I'd be happy if each and every > member of Modular Systems was banned from SL, but I know there are > politics involved, so that probably won't happen. > > Anyway, I'm sorry if I distracted this list from more important things > going on with snowstorm. ?Given the discussion going on in this thread, > I thought some people on this list might find these numbers > interesting. ?I can't wait to see what you guys come up with for > snowstorm at the end of the first sprint. > > Cheers! > ~Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From missannotoole at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 05:22:30 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 05:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I hate replying to a policy thread here but will make this one time exception for my humble input for LL's consideration: What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV policy that prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any reason when a LL grid is selected for login. This simple policy, if correctly followed, would have prevented the incident. It would also eliminate a tpv team from monitoring logins and usage but then where exactly did they get to do that in the first place? It is a missed policy bullet. There is no reason a client should connect to anything except an LL server when an LL grid is selected. LL needs to be totally security conscious about the login process and what rigid requirements must be met for connecting to the LL grids. I.e.; I watch my port activity. Everyone should. But not everyone would know what they are looking at. But had they been watching I bet they would have been wanting to know what all those connections to that host were all about right away. Had I been using Emerald and saw thirty something connections to iheartanime dot com appear I would have been raising hell immediately. What you connect to on the internet can be and is monitored sometimes and being open to forced connections to something really bad would be extremely unfortunate for many that have tom be squeaky clean. I use Kirstens and I don't even care much for it's connection for motd. However it does tell me when the latest release is available and that is very useful information. Maybe there is a way for LL to provide motd bullets for tpvs so they can get the word out about updates or something. There has to be a better way. Regards Ann Otoole InSL ________________________________ From: Brian McGroarty To: Thomas Grimshaw Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 10:33:52 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Thomas Grimshaw wrote: > Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. > Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but > paranoid bull. "Crosslinking" drops the context of hiding gibberish requests to a critic's website in a hidden frame that will never be revealed to the user. This isn't a mere hyperlink to another page or naively stealing someone else's image hosting. My read (but I'm no lawyer) is that this looks like 2.d.iii of http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php and we're already having that discussion. If anyone can come up with specific reasons why this might have had legitimate reason to be there, or how this one could be yet another oversight or mistake, that would be helpful. I sure haven't heard any to date. -- Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/9ea33c96/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 05:30:09 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:30:09 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "You must not launch Denial of Service (?DoS?) attacks, engage in griefing, or distribute other functionality that Linden Lab considers harmful or disruptive to Second Life or the Second Life community" would have prevented this incident too, if it was obeyed and enforced. On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Ann Otoole wrote: > I hate replying to a policy thread here but will make this one time > exception for my humble input for LL's consideration: > > What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV policy that > prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any reason when a > LL grid is selected for login. This simple policy, if correctly followed, > would have prevented the incident. It would also eliminate a tpv team from > monitoring logins and usage but then where exactly did they get to do that > in the first place? It is a missed policy bullet. There is no reason a > client should connect to anything except an LL server when an LL grid is > selected. LL needs to be totally security conscious about the login process > and what rigid requirements must be met for connecting to the LL grids. > > I.e.; I watch my port activity. Everyone should. But not everyone would know > what they are looking at. But had they been watching I bet they would have > been wanting to know what all those connections to that host were all about > right away. Had I been using Emerald and saw thirty something connections to > iheartanime dot com appear I would have been raising hell immediately. What > you connect to on the internet can be and is monitored sometimes and being > open to forced connections to something really bad would be extremely > unfortunate for many that have tom be squeaky clean. > > I use Kirstens and I don't even care much for it's connection for motd. > However it does tell me when the latest release is available and that is > very useful information. Maybe there is a way for LL to provide motd bullets > for tpvs so they can get the word out about updates or something. > > There has to be a better way. > > Regards > > Ann Otoole InSL > > ________________________________ > From: Brian McGroarty > To: Thomas Grimshaw > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 10:33:52 AM > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is > the policy worth anything? > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Thomas Grimshaw > wrote: >> ?Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. >> Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but >> paranoid bull. > > "Crosslinking" drops the context of hiding gibberish requests to a > critic's website in a hidden frame that will never be revealed to the > user. This isn't a mere hyperlink to another page or naively stealing > someone else's image hosting. > > My read (but I'm no lawyer) is that this looks like 2.d.iii of > http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php and we're already having that > discussion. If anyone can come up with specific reasons why this might > have had legitimate reason to be there, or how this one could be yet > another oversight or mistake, that would be helpful. I sure haven't > heard any to date. > > -- > Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 05:32:14 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:32:14 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] SVN dead at LL? Message-ID: In the subject really - is subversion just dead now? -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From oz at lindenlab.com Sun Aug 22 05:59:08 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:59:08 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] SVN dead at LL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C711F1C.4090402@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-22 8:32, Gareth Nelson wrote: > In the subject really - is subversion just dead now? > I know that it seems like a simple question, but it may be that it has gone over the edge to "too simple". Linden Lab has for some time been using Mercurial (hg) internally for nearly everything. Whether or not there are some uses of subversion still going on I don't know. The viewer projects are now all using hg, with the authoritative integration repository being http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development If the question is whether or not we are still updating the old viewer-external subversion repository to reflect the new repository above, the answer is no. Those updates were driven by builds off of a now-obsolete internal repository (somewhat confusingly named 'viewer-public'). The subversion repository for Snowglobe continues to exist. Did that answer your question? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/48e30392/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Sun Aug 22 06:05:21 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:05:21 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] SVN dead at LL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C712091.8080200@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 08/22/2010 02:32 PM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > In the subject really - is subversion just dead now? Define "dead". The server is still up and running and I guess it'll stay like that for the foreseeable future. About the code hosted there, and the projects behind that: * I assume there will be no further source drops of *official viewer* code on SVN, as there are now public hg repositories for that purpose, first of all http://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development * I assume the community committers still have write access, so *Snowglobe 1* might (and probably will, if necessary) still receive security fixes. There will probably not be any new features developed for Snowglobe 1. I don't know whether some Viewer 2 features will be backported. * Features of *Snowglobe 2* will be cherry picked into Snowstorm (lindenlab/viewer-development) if LL thinks they should be in the mainline viewer. It's unclear what happens with features that the community wants but LL doesn't. (For implemented ones, you'll probably be able to get them from the individual dev's repo. We aren't yet sure whether we also want to establish a common community repo for that purpose.) cheers Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/c71fb893/attachment.htm From makosoft at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 06:09:33 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:09:33 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Ann Otoole wrote: > What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV policy that > prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any reason when a > LL grid is selected for login. This simple policy, if correctly followed, > would have prevented the incident. It would also eliminate a tpv team from > monitoring logins and usage but then where exactly did they get to do that > in the first place? It also prevents third-party viewers from notifying users that updates are available, including security updates. Whole bunch of other stuff too - for example the official Second Life login screen doesn't actually work on unofficial viewers. Besides, both incidents like this and undisclosed monitoring of usage violate the TPV policy anyway (and at least one of Emerald's privacy issues didn't involve connecting to any non-LL server at all). Have you taken a look at Imprudence's Privacy Policy, for example (http://imprudenceviewer.org/wiki/Imprudence:Privacy_policy)? This is roughly the level of disclosure the policy calls for regarding data collection associated with viewer use (the information related to the website goes beyond what the policy requires). I assume Emerald has a similar page somewhere too. From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 06:17:46 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:17:46 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] SVN dead at LL? In-Reply-To: <4C712091.8080200@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C712091.8080200@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: So basically, server is still up but no updates, that pretty much answers my question On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > On 08/22/2010 02:32 PM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > > In the subject really - is subversion just dead now? > > Define "dead". The server is still up and running and I guess it'll stay > like that for the foreseeable future. About the code hosted there, and the > projects behind that: > > I assume there will be no further source drops of official viewer code on > SVN, as there are now public hg repositories for that purpose, first of all > http://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development > I assume the community committers still have write access, so Snowglobe 1 > might (and probably will, if necessary) still receive security fixes. There > will probably not be any new features developed for Snowglobe 1. I don't > know whether some Viewer 2 features will be backported. > Features of Snowglobe 2 will be cherry picked into Snowstorm > (lindenlab/viewer-development) if LL thinks they should be in the mainline > viewer. It's unclear what happens with features that the community wants but > LL doesn't. (For implemented ones, you'll probably be able to get them from > the individual dev's repo. We aren't yet sure whether we also want to > establish a common community repo for that purpose.) > > cheers > Boroondas > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From simon.disk29 at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 06:37:17 2010 From: simon.disk29 at gmail.com (Simon Disk) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:37:17 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The login screen and this attack happened before you select the grid. On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Ann Otoole wrote: > I hate replying to a policy thread here but will make this one time > exception for my humble input for LL's consideration: > > What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV policy that > prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any reason when a > LL grid is selected for login. This simple policy, if correctly followed, > would have prevented the incident. It would also eliminate a tpv team from > monitoring logins and usage but then where exactly did they get to do that > in the first place? It is a missed policy bullet. There is no reason a > client should connect to anything except an LL server when an LL grid is > selected. LL needs to be totally security conscious about the login process > and what rigid requirements must be met for connecting to the LL grids. > > I.e.; I watch my port activity. Everyone should. But not everyone would > know what they are looking at. But had they been watching I bet they would > have been wanting to know what all those connections to that host were all > about right away. Had I been using Emerald and saw thirty something > connections to iheartanime dot com appear I would have been raising hell > immediately. What you connect to on the internet can be and is monitored > sometimes and being open to forced connections to something really bad would > be extremely unfortunate for many that have tom be squeaky clean. > > I use Kirstens and I don't even care much for it's connection for motd. > However it does tell me when the latest release is available and that is > very useful information. Maybe there is a way for LL to provide motd bullets > for tpvs so they can get the word out about updates or something. > > There has to be a better way. > > Regards > > Ann Otoole InSL > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Brian McGroarty > *To:* Thomas Grimshaw > *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > *Sent:* Sat, August 21, 2010 10:33:52 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: > is the policy worth anything? > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Thomas Grimshaw > wrote: > > Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. > > Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but > > paranoid bull. > > "Crosslinking" drops the context of hiding gibberish requests to a > critic's website in a hidden frame that will never be revealed to the > user. This isn't a mere hyperlink to another page or naively stealing > someone else's image hosting. > > My read (but I'm no lawyer) is that this looks like 2.d.iii of > http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php and we're already having that > discussion. If anyone can come up with specific reasons why this might > have had legitimate reason to be there, or how this one could be yet > another oversight or mistake, that would be helpful. I sure haven't > heard any to date. > > -- > Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/e1dda498/attachment.htm From simon.disk29 at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 06:47:12 2010 From: simon.disk29 at gmail.com (Simon Disk) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:47:12 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> References: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Phox wrote: > (Since then, all additional metadata information has been removed from > emkdu). > The change in encryption was simply a result of inertia being able to > decode the viewer window title information. > It is my understanding that the emku was placing the hidden viewer window title information into the baked textures. So in one sentence you are saying the information was removed. And in the next you are saying it is still there just encrypted better so others cannot decode it and out you. Which is it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/8860b680/attachment.htm From wdemauro at verizon.net Sun Aug 22 07:38:08 2010 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:38:08 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C7065E0.7070208@modularsystems.sl> Message-ID: <661E5735181B4F3CA83E0BDDCCFDE3AB@WillPC> Found this morning, forgive me for not noting where, but it puts it in context: Anonymous said... Why did they do that? Well, you may recall that Emerald (more specifically the libemkdu library in it) was caught leaking personally-identifiable information about its users in an encrypted form that could be read by Emerald developers. They were then caught continuing to do so after the developers in question claimed the problem was fixed, just with stronger encryption that made it harder to prove. iheartanime.com is the website of the person who figured out how to decrypt the secret information they were leaking both times, and the website on which he publicised this issue. It's basically a vendatta attack against someone who revealed the Emerald developers had been up to no good. From: Simon Disk Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 9:47 AM To: Phox Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Phox wrote: (Since then, all additional metadata information has been removed from emkdu). The change in encryption was simply a result of inertia being able to decode the viewer window title information. It is my understanding that the emku was placing the hidden viewer window title information into the baked textures. So in one sentence you are saying the information was removed. And in the next you are saying it is still there just encrypted better so others cannot decode it and out you. Which is it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/65fbc47f/attachment.htm From morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com Sun Aug 22 07:38:21 2010 From: morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com (Morgaine) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:38:21 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 AM, leliel wrote: > > /set debugvar value > > +1 lelie This symmetrical handling for all parameters is far superior to defining abbreviations for each one, and it is inherently extensible as the set of parameters grows. I support this. Morgaine. ==================================== On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 AM, leliel wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Miro Collas wrote: > > > How about bbeing able to just type it in? Why a slider, or mouse wheel, > > which is inaccurate? How about being able to type it in chat? > > Instead of a one off thing just for the draw distance, I'd rather we had a > general command input system similar to the console on id's games. So since > we use /# for the channel and /me for emotes how about /set for setting > debug variables with the following syntax. > > /set debugvar value > > Where value is one of bool, integer, float, or a vector using the lsl style > of <0.0, 0.0, 0.0>. With tab line completion of course. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/faca712f/attachment-0001.htm From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 07:48:14 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 07:48:14 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] RenderVolumeLODfactor (branch from Draw Distance) In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> <4C70CD16.6050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6CBD3346-4EED-4D9B-938F-6768773A468D@gmail.com> Actually, it would be nice if RenderVolumeLODfactor could either persist from one version to the next (instead of getting reset with everey new version installation), or be set based on GPU detection. I imagine the default of 1.125 is based on "class 0" (intel integrated graphics) but anybody using better than that can go to 2.0 at a bare minimum. More powerful GPU's can easily handle 4.0, and from my experience the ATI 4xxx series and above/nVidia 9xxx series and above can do 6.0. On a side note, I've found that setting above 6.0 can have unexpected and unwanted results, most notably 'disappearing prims' with smaller sculpts (necklace chains, etc). Having to manually jump into debug settings with every viewer release is a pain. If it could be auto-detected, that would save a lot of novice users from having to mess around in the Advanced/Debug menu On Aug 22, 2010, at 2:50 AM, Opensource Obscure wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:36:18 +0100, Robin Cornelius > wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 10:09 AM, leliel > wrote: >>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Miro Collas >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> That's what I referring to, the command line commands. VERY handy! And >>>> dd is one I use a great deal. > > btw, recent Kirstens releases handily embed the draw distance slider > into the 2.x menu upper bar. > >>> /set RenderFarClip 128 >>> /set RenderVolumeLODFactor 2.0 >>> /set WindLightUseAtmosShaders 0 >>> >>> With a system like this you could change any setting on the fly >>> without ever having to open the UI which would be great for filming >>> machinima. Cam into a building and turn on global illumination and >>> crank up the SSAO settings for deep highlights, cam back out and put >>> SSAO back to the defaults and turn off GI for a better frame rate. >> >> Thats a powerful idea, is there a new feature JIRA for this on the LL >> pJIRA currenty? if not could I kindly ask you to create one for it and >> post the issue number back here. > > +1 > > I like a lot leliel's suggestion about Windlight control > via commandline, especially because I guess that would > evolve into gestures = tradeable assets (correct?) > > Opensource Obscure > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From marinekelley at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 07:50:16 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 16:50:16 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <4C70A949.4020508@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please be careful not to screw up debug settings that must NOT be changed. Some are capital for the viewer to function normally, and would completely shut out users who don't know how to change them back offline, and to what. It would be easy to make a gesture that completely messes up your debug settings and to distribute it. I'd like to point out that the RLV has been controlling all the windlight settings and a couple debug settings for two years now, through scripts, and it works well. I took the whitelist approach to the debug settings precisely for the reason I explained above, and it can't modify anything else so the user is safe. Marine On 22 August 2010 16:38, Morgaine wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 AM, leliel wrote: > >> >> /set debugvar value >> >> > +1 lelie > > This symmetrical handling for all parameters is far superior to defining > abbreviations for each one, and it is inherently extensible as the set of > parameters grows. I support this. > > > Morgaine. > > > > ==================================== > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 AM, leliel wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Miro Collas wrote: >> >> > How about bbeing able to just type it in? Why a slider, or mouse wheel, >> > which is inaccurate? How about being able to type it in chat? >> >> Instead of a one off thing just for the draw distance, I'd rather we had >> a general command input system similar to the console on id's games. So >> since we use /# for the channel and /me for emotes how about /set for >> setting debug variables with the following syntax. >> >> /set debugvar value >> >> Where value is one of bool, integer, float, or a vector using the lsl >> style of <0.0, 0.0, 0.0>. With tab line completion of course. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/09a9d612/attachment.htm From jbhancroft at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 07:56:01 2010 From: jbhancroft at gmail.com (JB Hancroft) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:56:01 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Ann, You suggested: * "What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV policy that prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any reason when a LL grid is selected for login."* I'd change that to require that any TPV *disclose* the specifics of any and all non-LL servers that they are connecting to, and the details of why they are doing so. Otherwise, some of the possible value-added functionality gets crippled. The real issue here is the TPVP is just legal CYA for LL, it's not something they actually monitor or enforce. There is no assurance being provided by LL or by the TPV developer, that they have any sense of reasonable security, including processes that limit rogue devs from pulling the kind of stunts that the Emerald team seem to favor. If the TPVP really matters, we'll see Emerald shut down from the TPVP program, because of this accumulated nonsense. If not, then it confirms that it's all just a paper chase. Regards, - JB On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Ann Otoole wrote: > I hate replying to a policy thread here but will make this one time > exception for my humble input for LL's consideration: > > What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV policy that > prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any reason when a > LL grid is selected for login. This simple policy, if correctly followed, > would have prevented the incident. It would also eliminate a tpv team from > monitoring logins and usage but then where exactly did they get to do that > in the first place? It is a missed policy bullet. There is no reason a > client should connect to anything except an LL server when an LL grid is > selected. LL needs to be totally security conscious about the login process > and what rigid requirements must be met for connecting to the LL grids. > > I.e.; I watch my port activity. Everyone should. But not everyone would > know what they are looking at. But had they been watching I bet they would > have been wanting to know what all those connections to that host were all > about right away. Had I been using Emerald and saw thirty something > connections to iheartanime dot com appear I would have been raising hell > immediately. What you connect to on the internet can be and is monitored > sometimes and being open to forced connections to something really bad would > be extremely unfortunate for many that have tom be squeaky clean. > > I use Kirstens and I don't even care much for it's connection for motd. > However it does tell me when the latest release is available and that is > very useful information. Maybe there is a way for LL to provide motd bullets > for tpvs so they can get the word out about updates or something. > > There has to be a better way. > > Regards > > Ann Otoole InSL > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Brian McGroarty > *To:* Thomas Grimshaw > *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > *Sent:* Sat, August 21, 2010 10:33:52 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: > is the policy worth anything? > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Thomas Grimshaw > wrote: > > Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. > > Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but > > paranoid bull. > > "Crosslinking" drops the context of hiding gibberish requests to a > critic's website in a hidden frame that will never be revealed to the > user. This isn't a mere hyperlink to another page or naively stealing > someone else's image hosting. > > My read (but I'm no lawyer) is that this looks like 2.d.iii of > http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php and we're already having that > discussion. If anyone can come up with specific reasons why this might > have had legitimate reason to be there, or how this one could be yet > another oversight or mistake, that would be helpful. I sure haven't > heard any to date. > > -- > Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab > Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/5b8755b8/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 07:58:11 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:58:11 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Being listed in the directory is a sign that viewer devs have self-certified compliance, but it's also an unconcious sign to users that the viewer is legit, even if not intended. On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 3:56 PM, JB Hancroft wrote: > Hi Ann, > > You suggested:? "What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV > policy that prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any > reason when a LL grid is selected for login." > > I'd change that to require that any TPV disclose the specifics of any and > all non-LL servers that they are connecting to, and the details of why they > are doing so.? Otherwise, some of the possible value-added functionality > gets crippled. > > The real issue here is the TPVP is just legal CYA for LL, it's not something > they actually monitor or enforce. > There is no assurance being provided by LL or by the TPV developer, that > they have any sense of reasonable security, including processes that limit > rogue devs from pulling the kind of stunts that the Emerald team seem to > favor. > > If the TPVP really matters, we'll see Emerald shut down from the TPVP > program, because of this accumulated nonsense. > If not, then it confirms that it's all just a paper chase. > > Regards, > - JB > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Ann Otoole wrote: >> >> I hate replying to a policy thread here but will make this one time >> exception for my humble input for LL's consideration: >> >> What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV policy that >> prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any reason when a >> LL grid is selected for login. This simple policy, if correctly followed, >> would have prevented the incident. It would also eliminate a tpv team from >> monitoring logins and usage but then where exactly did they get to do that >> in the first place? It is a missed policy bullet. There is no reason a >> client should connect to anything except an LL server when an LL grid is >> selected. LL needs to be totally security conscious about the login process >> and what rigid requirements must be met for connecting to the LL grids. >> >> I.e.; I watch my port activity. Everyone should. But not everyone would >> know what they are looking at. But had they been watching I bet they would >> have been wanting to know what all those connections to that host were all >> about right away. Had I been using Emerald and saw thirty something >> connections to iheartanime dot com appear I would have been raising hell >> immediately. What you connect to on the internet can be and is monitored >> sometimes and being open to forced connections to something really bad would >> be extremely unfortunate for many that have tom be squeaky clean. >> >> I use Kirstens and I don't even care much for it's connection for motd. >> However it does tell me when the latest release is available and that is >> very useful information. Maybe there is a way for LL to provide motd bullets >> for tpvs so they can get the word out about updates or something. >> >> There has to be a better way. >> >> Regards >> >> Ann Otoole InSL >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Brian McGroarty >> To: Thomas Grimshaw >> Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 10:33:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: >> is the policy worth anything? >> >> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Thomas Grimshaw >> wrote: >> > ?Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. >> > Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but >> > paranoid bull. >> >> "Crosslinking" drops the context of hiding gibberish requests to a >> critic's website in a hidden frame that will never be revealed to the >> user. This isn't a mere hyperlink to another page or naively stealing >> someone else's image hosting. >> >> My read (but I'm no lawyer) is that this looks like 2.d.iii of >> http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php and we're already having that >> discussion. If anyone can come up with specific reasons why this might >> have had legitimate reason to be there, or how this one could be yet >> another oversight or mistake, that would be helpful. I sure haven't >> heard any to date. >> >> -- >> Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab >> Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sun Aug 22 08:14:05 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:14:05 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: <201008221714.05405.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb Marine Kelley: > Please be careful not to screw up debug settings that must NOT be > changed. Some are capital for the viewer to function normally [...] could someone please elaborate on why those settings even exist and are changeable? i mean, basically, a debug setting is nothing other than an entry in the global settings.xml file. According to my understanding of what marine points out, seetting certain of these to other than the default values will render the client unusable... then why on earth are these changeable settings at all, instead of #define lines directly in the source??? or, at least, autogenerated variables in the source, instead of something that users can f'ck with? bye, LC From marinekelley at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 08:21:45 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:21:45 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: <201008221714.05405.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <201008221714.05405.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: On 22 August 2010 17:14, Lance Corrimal wrote: > > could someone please elaborate on why those settings even exist and > are changeable? > > Well, I believe there are SOME debug settings that are worth changing for a developer, but NOT for the user. I am thinking of "ConnectionPort" for example. Change that for the average user and they can't connect to SL anymore until they actually find out how to change this value back and to what value, if ever. Granted they could reinstall the viewer, but still it is annoying at best. You could also sneak a change on "MediaShowOnOthers" to force the avatar to see the media on your own attachments, and use that to hack their computer. There are plenty of nasty things you can do if this can of worms is opened. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/7b2c1cb0/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sun Aug 22 08:22:56 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:22:56 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: <201008221714.05405.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <201008221714.05405.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <201008221722.56398.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> related line of thought: how much faster could the viewer be if every single of these "do not change this ever" settings was replaced with a #define in a central include file? or in other words, what is the cpu cycle penalty for a SavedSettings.getBOOL() and the others? bye, LC Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb Lance Corrimal: > Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb Marine Kelley: > > Please be careful not to screw up debug settings that must NOT be > > changed. Some are capital for the viewer to function normally > > [...] > > could someone please elaborate on why those settings even exist and > are changeable? > > > i mean, basically, a debug setting is nothing other than an entry > in the global settings.xml file. > > According to my understanding of what marine points out, seetting > certain of these to other than the default values will render the > client unusable... then why on earth are these changeable settings > at all, instead of #define lines directly in the source??? > > or, at least, autogenerated variables in the source, instead of > something that users can f'ck with? > > bye, > LC > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 08:26:14 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:26:14 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Agreed, I think most users treat the viewers on that directory as having been approved for use by Linden Lab. Sort of a 'good housekeeping seal of approval' for the SL grid, if you will. On Aug 22, 2010, at 7:58 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > Being listed in the directory is a sign that viewer devs have > self-certified compliance, but it's also an unconcious sign to users > that the viewer is legit, even if not intended. > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 3:56 PM, JB Hancroft wrote: >> Hi Ann, >> >> You suggested: "What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV >> policy that prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any >> reason when a LL grid is selected for login." >> >> I'd change that to require that any TPV disclose the specifics of any and >> all non-LL servers that they are connecting to, and the details of why they >> are doing so. Otherwise, some of the possible value-added functionality >> gets crippled. >> >> The real issue here is the TPVP is just legal CYA for LL, it's not something >> they actually monitor or enforce. >> There is no assurance being provided by LL or by the TPV developer, that >> they have any sense of reasonable security, including processes that limit >> rogue devs from pulling the kind of stunts that the Emerald team seem to >> favor. >> >> If the TPVP really matters, we'll see Emerald shut down from the TPVP >> program, because of this accumulated nonsense. >> If not, then it confirms that it's all just a paper chase. >> >> Regards, >> - JB >> >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Ann Otoole wrote: >>> >>> I hate replying to a policy thread here but will make this one time >>> exception for my humble input for LL's consideration: >>> >>> What I think LL should consider is something in the TPV policy that >>> prohibits any tpv from connecting to any non LL server for any reason when a >>> LL grid is selected for login. This simple policy, if correctly followed, >>> would have prevented the incident. It would also eliminate a tpv team from >>> monitoring logins and usage but then where exactly did they get to do that >>> in the first place? It is a missed policy bullet. There is no reason a >>> client should connect to anything except an LL server when an LL grid is >>> selected. LL needs to be totally security conscious about the login process >>> and what rigid requirements must be met for connecting to the LL grids. >>> >>> I.e.; I watch my port activity. Everyone should. But not everyone would >>> know what they are looking at. But had they been watching I bet they would >>> have been wanting to know what all those connections to that host were all >>> about right away. Had I been using Emerald and saw thirty something >>> connections to iheartanime dot com appear I would have been raising hell >>> immediately. What you connect to on the internet can be and is monitored >>> sometimes and being open to forced connections to something really bad would >>> be extremely unfortunate for many that have tom be squeaky clean. >>> >>> I use Kirstens and I don't even care much for it's connection for motd. >>> However it does tell me when the latest release is available and that is >>> very useful information. Maybe there is a way for LL to provide motd bullets >>> for tpvs so they can get the word out about updates or something. >>> >>> There has to be a better way. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Ann Otoole InSL >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Brian McGroarty >>> To: Thomas Grimshaw >>> Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >>> Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 10:33:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: >>> is the policy worth anything? >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Thomas Grimshaw >>> wrote: >>>> Loading 1mb of content per user is hardly a denial of service attack. >>>> Crosslinking occurs everywhere on the web, this is simply nothing but >>>> paranoid bull. >>> >>> "Crosslinking" drops the context of hiding gibberish requests to a >>> critic's website in a hidden frame that will never be revealed to the >>> user. This isn't a mere hyperlink to another page or naively stealing >>> someone else's image hosting. >>> >>> My read (but I'm no lawyer) is that this looks like 2.d.iii of >>> http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php and we're already having that >>> discussion. If anyone can come up with specific reasons why this might >>> have had legitimate reason to be there, or how this one could be yet >>> another oversight or mistake, that would be helpful. I sure haven't >>> heard any to date. >>> >>> -- >>> Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab >>> Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > > -- > ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for > everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - > Printcrime by Cory Doctrow > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From nexisentertainment at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 08:29:45 2010 From: nexisentertainment at gmail.com (Rob Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:29:45 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? Message-ID: <4C714269.9090708@gmail.com> (Replied offlist by accident.) Funny how you allow Phox and crew to continue operating after they purposefully leak info and attack a website, and then you ban me for running a freakin' rental company to help pay a friend's bills. Get your priorities straight and either enforce ALL of your rules for EVERYONE, or don't enforce them at all. Rob The guy who used to develop Luna before he got banned and started making crap for Minecraft instead. On 8/21/2010 8:34 AM, Brian McGroarty wrote: > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Discrete Dreamscape > wrote: >> Actually, I prefer to remember him as: >> >> 1) The guy who hacked Emerald's servers before discovering the data >> storage issue and >> >> 2) The active developer of a malicious viewer under the lolguise of >> promoting exploit/bugfixing. >> >> But hey, they keep antagonizing him, so of course this kind of thing continues. > Yeah, he's no saint from these or a hundred other things said about > him. Ditto the Emerald leadership. For us though, the problem begins > if a pissing match extends to SL or resis' use of SL. > From q at lindenlab.com Sun Aug 22 09:05:10 2010 From: q at lindenlab.com (Q Linden) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:05:10 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] SVN dead at LL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. We have switched to hg (Mercurial) entirely. And we are lots happier. Some day with a better keyboard and two working hands I could explain why. -- Q (iPhone => terse) On Aug 22, 2010, at 8:32 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > In the subject really - is subversion just dead now? > > -- > ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for > everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - > Printcrime by Cory Doctrow > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sun Aug 22 09:40:49 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:40:49 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <201008221714.05405.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <201008221840.49663.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb Marine Kelley: > Well, I believe there are SOME debug settings that are worth > changing for a developer, but NOT for the user. I am thinking of > "ConnectionPort" for example. Change that for the average user and > they can't connect to SL anymore until they actually find out how > to change this value back and to what value, if ever. not true, actually... ConnectionPort is a port that the viewer is listening on (for UDP packets, i believe). I'm running with custom ports here since a few months ago (onde distinct, different port on each client computer) and that actually made thing (teleports and such) a bit better behind a nat router... still, most of those settings should just be replaced with defines in an incluide file as soon as the build type in the develop.py call is "Release"... bye, LC From secret.argent at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 10:09:11 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:09:11 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Draw Distance In-Reply-To: <201008221714.05405.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <30b1b68d284dcc73a4b4b277cff680b6.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> <201008221714.05405.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4331405D-AD7D-42BF-8333-43AD897B80BD@gmail.com> On 2010-08-22, at 10:14, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb Marine Kelley: >> Please be careful not to screw up debug settings that must NOT be >> changed. Some are capital for the viewer to function normally [...] > could someone please elaborate on why those settings even exist and > are changeable? Some of them can be changed, but only if you know exactly what you're doing. They're in the advanced debug settings list because they're there for the people who DO know exactly what they're doing. Some used to be meaningful but are no longer sensible to change. Some are there for cases when you DO want the viewer to function abnormally... for example changing port numbers. There really needs to be a "not so advanced advanced debug" subset that could then be exported via a "/set" option. From robertltux at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 10:20:11 2010 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:20:11 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 10:56 AM, JB Hancroft wrote: > If the TPVP really matters, we'll see Emerald shut down from the TPVP > program, because of this accumulated nonsense. > If not, then it confirms that it's all just a paper chase. actually lets see whats going on here 1 the whole texture thing was due to the viewers install folder being baked into textures IF THIS IS LEFT AS DEFAULT then very little info is actually given the problem is some folks were doing installs into their own home folder (somebody did not account for that) 2 the whole login screen edit was mostly the person in question err being "drunk" at the time and not going back to fix/revert his editing (btw he is in fact stepping down and surrendering the domain) I would say that since 1 the problems are being fixed 2 former lindens (from the recent "Night of Glass" set of layoffs) are now being hired as part of the E-Team this is a closed issue -- Robert L Martin Phox whenish is the next beta coming out and is 2439 being blocked?? From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 10:27:13 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:27:13 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: this has been put many ways and this is the clearest it can be put. FC quits, hands off to Arabella (read the sandbox dialogs to gauge her reliability), FC creates new account with new name, make some meaningless webserver changes, FC comes back with a new name, lather/rinse/repeat. They have proved that they can not be trusted. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 10:56 AM, JB Hancroft > wrote: > > If the TPVP really matters, we'll see Emerald shut down from the TPVP > > program, because of this accumulated nonsense. > > If not, then it confirms that it's all just a paper chase. > > actually lets see whats going on here > 1 the whole texture thing was due to the viewers install folder being > baked into textures > IF THIS IS LEFT AS DEFAULT then very little info is actually given the > problem is some folks were doing installs into their own home folder > (somebody did not account for that) > > 2 the whole login screen edit was mostly the person in question err > being "drunk" at the time and not going back to fix/revert his editing > (btw he is in fact stepping down and surrendering the domain) > > I would say that since 1 the problems are being fixed 2 former lindens > (from the recent "Night of Glass" set of layoffs) are now being hired > as part of the E-Team this is a closed issue > > -- > Robert L Martin > Phox whenish is the next beta coming out and is 2439 being blocked?? > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/2c400ecd/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 10:32:09 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:32:09 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tell me, what's the default install path on linux, if there even is an installer? I know personally when I use a new viewer I do this: wget http://whatever gunzip whatever.tar.gz tar xvf whatever.tar cd ~/whatever ./whatever or: svn co http://whatever cd whatever cd indra python develop.py build cd viewer-linux-i686-relwithdebinfo/newview/packaged ./whatever So that the full path will be /home/gareth/whatever or /home/gareth/whatever/viewer-linux-i686-relwithdebinfo/newview/packaged If I wanted to be anonymous in-world (and usually I don't, i'm quite open even when i'm doing all kinds of sexy fetish stuff - but some people do value keeping their real name private), leaking the "/home/gareth" part would be a huge problem. On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 10:56 AM, JB Hancroft wrote: >> If the TPVP really matters, we'll see Emerald shut down from the TPVP >> program, because of this accumulated nonsense. >> If not, then it confirms that it's all just a paper chase. > > actually lets see whats going on here > 1 the whole texture thing was due to the viewers install folder being > baked into textures > IF THIS IS LEFT AS DEFAULT then very little info is actually given the > problem is some folks were doing installs into their own home folder > (somebody did not account for that) > > 2 the whole login screen edit was mostly the person in question err > being "drunk" at the time and not going back to fix/revert his editing > (btw he is in fact stepping down and surrendering the domain) > > I would say that since 1 the problems are being fixed 2 former lindens > (from the recent "Night of Glass" set of layoffs) are now being hired > as part of the E-Team this is a closed issue > > -- > Robert L Martin > Phox whenish is the next beta coming out and is 2439 being blocked?? > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From jessesa at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 10:32:27 2010 From: jessesa at gmail.com (Jesse Barnett) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:32:27 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fractured has stepped down and out of the Emerald picture http://blog.modularsystems.sl/2010/08/22/emerald-off-with-his-head/ But it is painfully obvious that the comments are being heavily moderated and I know that neither of mine have gotten through. The Phox is still in the hen house and it is going to take much more then this token response to restore confidence. Anyone watching the videos and listening to their voices can see that a complete reorganization needs to be done and transparency demonstrated and verified. I hope that the upper echelons of Linden Lab are not fooled by the blog post and instead demand that more action be taken. At the bare minimum, they need to be delisted until real change has been shown. Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV is a worthless scrap of paper. Jesse Barnett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/5b926e63/attachment.htm From tateru.nino at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 10:38:56 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:38:56 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C7160B0.7050300@weblogsinc.com> Arabella has also resigned. On 23/08/2010 3:32 AM, Jesse Barnett wrote: > Fractured has stepped down and out of the Emerald picture > > http://blog.modularsystems.sl/2010/08/22/emerald-off-with-his-head/ > > But it is painfully obvious that the comments are being heavily > moderated and I know that neither of mine have gotten through. > > The Phox is still in the hen house and it is going to take much more > then this token response to restore confidence. Anyone watching the > videos and listening to their voices can see that a > complete reorganization needs to be done and transparency demonstrated > and verified. > > I hope that the upper echelons of Linden Lab are not fooled by the > blog post and instead demand that more action be taken. At the bare > minimum, they need to be delisted until real change has been shown. > > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken on > the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV is a > worthless scrap of paper. > > Jesse Barnett > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Tateru Nino Contributing Editor http://massively.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100823/6f09cc5a/attachment-0001.htm From zenmondo at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 10:39:01 2010 From: zenmondo at gmail.com (L. Christopher Bird) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:39:01 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett wrote: > > > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken on the > part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV is a worthless > scrap of paper. > > Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is "a worthless configuration of pixels" The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the policy. 8c says: "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are so popular you can screw around all you want". Is Emerald the viewer "too big to fail"? -- ZenMondo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/94a853e4/attachment-0001.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sun Aug 22 11:01:56 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:01:56 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb L. Christopher Bird: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett wrote: > > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken > > on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV > > is a worthless scrap of paper. > > Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is > "a worthless configuration of pixels" > > The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the > policy. 8c says: > > "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates > this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access > Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate > automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you > to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing > Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." > > So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are > so popular you can screw around all you want". Is Emerald the > viewer "too big to fail"? > > -- ZenMondo I just looked and emerald's not in the tpv directory anymore. From andsim2 at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 11:07:46 2010 From: andsim2 at gmail.com (Andrew Simpson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:07:46 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C716772.8060605@gmail.com> oh.. what this mean? we cant use emerald anymore? On 22/08/2010 2:01 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb L. Christopher Bird: >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett > wrote: >>> Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken >>> on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV >>> is a worthless scrap of paper. >> Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is >> "a worthless configuration of pixels" >> >> The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the >> policy. 8c says: >> >> "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates >> this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access >> Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate >> automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you >> to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing >> Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." >> >> So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are >> so popular you can screw around all you want". Is Emerald the >> viewer "too big to fail"? >> >> -- ZenMondo > I just looked and emerald's not in the tpv directory anymore. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- AnSky Grid is fun & enjoy with community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100822/2f6f00f2/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 11:50:53 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:50:53 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: As they shouldn't be! Although one does wonder whether users are now at risk of being banned if they keep using it On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb L. Christopher Bird: >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett > wrote: >> > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken >> > on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV >> > is a worthless scrap of paper. >> >> Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is >> "a worthless configuration of pixels" >> >> The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the >> policy. 8c says: >> >> "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates >> this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access >> Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate >> automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you >> to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing >> Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." >> >> So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are >> so popular you can screw around all you want". ?Is Emerald the >> viewer "too big to fail"? >> >> -- ZenMondo > > I just looked and emerald's not in the tpv directory anymore. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From wdemauro at verizon.net Sun Aug 22 12:19:25 2010 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:19:25 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <87BEBE31F9294958BCFF532DD182818F@WillPC> They may be waiting to make a formal announcement before they pull the plug on the viewer- didn't they make a policy of not allowing any viewer to connect that wasn't on the list? I think so- -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gareth Nelson" Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:50 PM To: "Lance Corrimal" Cc: Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? > As they shouldn't be! > Although one does wonder whether users are now at risk of being banned > if they keep using it > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Lance Corrimal > wrote: >> Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb L. Christopher Bird: >>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett >> wrote: >>> > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken >>> > on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV >>> > is a worthless scrap of paper. >>> >>> Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is >>> "a worthless configuration of pixels" >>> >>> The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the >>> policy. 8c says: >>> >>> "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates >>> this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access >>> Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate >>> automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you >>> to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing >>> Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." >>> >>> So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are >>> so popular you can screw around all you want". Is Emerald the >>> viewer "too big to fail"? >>> >>> -- ZenMondo >> >> I just looked and emerald's not in the tpv directory anymore. >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > > -- > ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for > everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - > Printcrime by Cory Doctrow > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 12:25:20 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:25:20 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <87BEBE31F9294958BCFF532DD182818F@WillPC> References: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <87BEBE31F9294958BCFF532DD182818F@WillPC> Message-ID: As I understand it, you don't need to be in the list, just comply with the policy. On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Will wrote: > They may be waiting to make a formal announcement before they pull the plug > on the viewer- didn't they make a policy of not allowing any viewer to > connect that wasn't on the list? ?I think so- > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Gareth Nelson" > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:50 PM > To: "Lance Corrimal" > Cc: > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is > the policy worth anything? > >> As they shouldn't be! >> Although one does wonder whether users are now at risk of being banned >> if they keep using it >> >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Lance Corrimal >> wrote: >>> >>> Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb L. Christopher Bird: >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken >>>> > on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV >>>> > is a worthless scrap of paper. >>>> >>>> Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is >>>> "a worthless configuration of pixels" >>>> >>>> The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the >>>> policy. 8c says: >>>> >>>> "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates >>>> this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access >>>> Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate >>>> automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you >>>> to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing >>>> Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." >>>> >>>> So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are >>>> so popular you can screw around all you want". ?Is Emerald the >>>> viewer "too big to fail"? >>>> >>>> -- ZenMondo >>> >>> I just looked and emerald's not in the tpv directory anymore. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for >> everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - >> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow >> >> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From miro.collas at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 12:49:33 2010 From: miro.collas at gmail.com (Miro Collas) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:49:33 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <4C7160B0.7050300@weblogsinc.com> References: <4C6FDCE0.8070008@streamsense.net> <749070.33320.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4C7160B0.7050300@weblogsinc.com> Message-ID: <4C717F4D.6090808@gmail.com> Do you have a cite for that, Tateru? Not saying it is false, I'd just like to see it in context if possible. On 08/22/2010 01:38 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Arabella has also resigned. > > On 23/08/2010 3:32 AM, Jesse Barnett wrote: >> Fractured has stepped down and out of the Emerald picture >> >> http://blog.modularsystems.sl/2010/08/22/emerald-off-with-his-head/ >> >> But it is painfully obvious that the comments are being heavily >> moderated and I know that neither of mine have gotten through. >> >> The Phox is still in the hen house and it is going to take much more >> then this token response to restore confidence. Anyone watching the >> videos and listening to their voices can see that a complete >> reorganization needs to be done and transparency demonstrated and >> verified. >> >> I hope that the upper echelons of Linden Lab are not fooled by the >> blog post and instead demand that more action be taken. At the bare >> minimum, they need to be delisted until real change has been shown. >> >> Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken on >> the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV is a >> worthless scrap of paper. >> >> Jesse Barnett >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -- > Tateru Nino > Contributing Editorhttp://massively.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From wdemauro at verizon.net Sun Aug 22 12:54:15 2010 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:54:15 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <87BEBE31F9294958BCFF532DD182818F@WillPC> Message-ID: <22866D7BB1E34B8DA9EACBC8B8DD1A0A@WillPC> hmm ok I may be wrong but remember a rush to update viewers from the approved list, didn't look over my shoulder and just for good housekeeping I don't venture from approved viewers. Seriously hope you are wrong or there will be little to no control over who gets to connect. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gareth Nelson" Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:25 PM To: "Will" Cc: "Lance Corrimal" ; Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? > As I understand it, you don't need to be in the list, just comply with > the policy. > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Will wrote: >> They may be waiting to make a formal announcement before they pull the >> plug >> on the viewer- didn't they make a policy of not allowing any viewer to >> connect that wasn't on the list? I think so- >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Gareth Nelson" >> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:50 PM >> To: "Lance Corrimal" >> Cc: >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: >> is >> the policy worth anything? >> >>> As they shouldn't be! >>> Although one does wonder whether users are now at risk of being banned >>> if they keep using it >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Lance Corrimal >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb L. Christopher Bird: >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken >>>>> > on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV >>>>> > is a worthless scrap of paper. >>>>> >>>>> Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is >>>>> "a worthless configuration of pixels" >>>>> >>>>> The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the >>>>> policy. 8c says: >>>>> >>>>> "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates >>>>> this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access >>>>> Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate >>>>> automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you >>>>> to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing >>>>> Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." >>>>> >>>>> So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are >>>>> so popular you can screw around all you want". Is Emerald the >>>>> viewer "too big to fail"? >>>>> >>>>> -- ZenMondo >>>> >>>> I just looked and emerald's not in the tpv directory anymore. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>> privileges >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for >>> everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - >>> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow >>> >>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >> >> > > > > -- > ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for > everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - > Printcrime by Cory Doctrow > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Aug 22 13:10:00 2010 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:10:00 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: <22866D7BB1E34B8DA9EACBC8B8DD1A0A@WillPC> References: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <87BEBE31F9294958BCFF532DD182818F@WillPC> <22866D7BB1E34B8DA9EACBC8B8DD1A0A@WillPC> Message-ID: There isn't anything in the policy itself which says you must be listed, there is however a note on the directory page warning users to be wary of unlisted viewers. On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Will wrote: > hmm ok I may be wrong but remember a rush to update viewers from the > approved list, didn't look over my shoulder and just for good housekeeping I > don't venture from approved viewers. ?Seriously hope you are wrong or there > will be little to no control over who gets to connect. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Gareth Nelson" > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:25 PM > To: "Will" > Cc: "Lance Corrimal" ; > > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is > the policy worth anything? > >> As I understand it, you don't need to be in the list, just comply with >> the policy. >> >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Will wrote: >>> >>> They may be waiting to make a formal announcement before they pull the >>> plug >>> on the viewer- didn't they make a policy of not allowing any viewer to >>> connect that wasn't on the list? ?I think so- >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Gareth Nelson" >>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:50 PM >>> To: "Lance Corrimal" >>> Cc: >>> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: >>> is >>> the policy worth anything? >>> >>>> As they shouldn't be! >>>> Although one does wonder whether users are now at risk of being banned >>>> if they keep using it >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Lance Corrimal >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb L. Christopher Bird: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken >>>>>> > on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV >>>>>> > is a worthless scrap of paper. >>>>>> >>>>>> Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is >>>>>> "a worthless configuration of pixels" >>>>>> >>>>>> The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the >>>>>> policy. 8c says: >>>>>> >>>>>> "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates >>>>>> this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access >>>>>> Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate >>>>>> automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you >>>>>> to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing >>>>>> Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." >>>>>> >>>>>> So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are >>>>>> so popular you can screw around all you want". ?Is Emerald the >>>>>> viewer "too big to fail"? >>>>>> >>>>>> -- ZenMondo >>>>> >>>>> I just looked and emerald's not in the tpv directory anymore. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>>> privileges >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for >>>> everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - >>>> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow >>>> >>>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >>>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>> privileges >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for >> everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - >> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow >> >> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > -- ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - Printcrime by Cory Doctrow Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From sythos at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 13:16:27 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:16:27 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <87BEBE31F9294958BCFF532DD182818F@WillPC> <22866D7BB1E34B8DA9EACBC8B8DD1A0A@WillPC> Message-ID: <20100822221627.225810ad.sythos@gmail.com> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:10:00 +0100 Gareth Nelson wrote: > There isn't anything in the policy itself which says you must be > listed, there is however a note on the directory page warning users to > be wary of unlisted viewers. wait... TPV listing is based on volunteer action, somebody can develop a viewer (maybe TPV compliant) and don't ask to be listed in the directory.... but in term of service at point 7 all resident accept to use only approved viewer to connect to Linden Grid (and if they login a time they must approve it) From wdemauro at verizon.net Sun Aug 22 13:20:13 2010 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 16:20:13 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? In-Reply-To: References: <201008222001.56289.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <87BEBE31F9294958BCFF532DD182818F@WillPC> <22866D7BB1E34B8DA9EACBC8B8DD1A0A@WillPC> Message-ID: Then this is confusing, to be listed you have to within the policy "approved" for lack of a better word: Someone please clarify- "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate automatically." To me it sounds like any viewer not on the list is not approved and that means by their own statement it will not be allowed to connect. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gareth Nelson" Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 4:10 PM To: "Will" Cc: "Lance Corrimal" ; Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: is the policy worth anything? > There isn't anything in the policy itself which says you must be > listed, there is however a note on the directory page warning users to > be wary of unlisted viewers. > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Will wrote: >> hmm ok I may be wrong but remember a rush to update viewers from the >> approved list, didn't look over my shoulder and just for good >> housekeeping I >> don't venture from approved viewers. Seriously hope you are wrong or >> there >> will be little to no control over who gets to connect. >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Gareth Nelson" >> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:25 PM >> To: "Will" >> Cc: "Lance Corrimal" ; >> >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party viewers: >> is >> the policy worth anything? >> >>> As I understand it, you don't need to be in the list, just comply with >>> the policy. >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Will wrote: >>>> >>>> They may be waiting to make a formal announcement before they pull the >>>> plug >>>> on the viewer- didn't they make a policy of not allowing any viewer to >>>> connect that wasn't on the list? I think so- >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Gareth Nelson" >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 2:50 PM >>>> To: "Lance Corrimal" >>>> Cc: >>>> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Malicious payloads in third-party >>>> viewers: >>>> is >>>> the policy worth anything? >>>> >>>>> As they shouldn't be! >>>>> Although one does wonder whether users are now at risk of being banned >>>>> if they keep using it >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Lance Corrimal >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Am Sunday 22 August 2010 schrieb L. Christopher Bird: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jesse Barnett >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Ignoring this and giving the all clear with no other action taken >>>>>>> > on the part of Linden Lab will instead demonstrate that the TPV >>>>>>> > is a worthless scrap of paper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Correction, it only exist on paper if printed. The proper phrase is >>>>>>> "a worthless configuration of pixels" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The TPVP makes it clear what the consequences are for breaking the >>>>>>> policy. 8c says: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates >>>>>>> this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access >>>>>>> Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate >>>>>>> automatically. You acknowledge and agree that we may require you >>>>>>> to stop using or distributing a Third-Party Viewer for accessing >>>>>>> Second Life if we determine that there is a violation." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So either the lab will enforce this, or they will say "Well you are >>>>>>> so popular you can screw around all you want". Is Emerald the >>>>>>> viewer "too big to fail"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- ZenMondo >>>>>> >>>>>> I just looked and emerald's not in the tpv directory anymore. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>>>> privileges >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for >>>>> everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - >>>>> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow >>>>> >>>>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >>>>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>>> privileges >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for >>> everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - >>> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow >>> >>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> >> > > > > -- > ?Lanie, I?m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for > everyone. That?s worth going to jail for. That?s worth anything.? - > Printcrime by Cory Doctrow > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From sldev at free.fr Sun Aug 22 13:30:20 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:30:20 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Malicious