From tofu at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 03:28:42 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:28:42 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> Altair Sythos Memo wrote: ... > 2010-08-31T21:02:02Z WARNING: ll_apr_warn_status: APR: Too many open > files > > 2010-08-31T21:02:02Z WARNING: open: Attempting to open > filename: /home/user/.secondlife/cache/texturecache/texture.entries ... > not so sure anyway is a viewer problem of something specific to my > linuxbox... is why i'm asking here if somebody else match this kind of > crash with latest build This is a genuine problem. Please file it in jira. Any eyes on this would be welcome. It seems to have popped up recently - it may be related to the latest HTTP textures changes, not sure (perhaps leaking file handles, though lsof says we're still somewhat under the default limits). From secret.argent at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 04:09:02 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 06:09:02 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Removal of the "MultipleAttachments" debug settings ? In-Reply-To: <1283312404.2758.3.camel@glen-desktop> References: <4C7C16E9.6010202@gmail.com> <8313138446845496260@unknownmsgid> <1283312404.2758.3.camel@glen-desktop> Message-ID: <8C095A78-39F8-4319-8DFF-73A83CA3877F@gmail.com> On 2010-08-31, at 22:40, Glen Canaday wrote: > Gamers like it broken like it is now, people who SOCIALIZE here (since > SL is, in fact, *not* a game... ahem) like it broken the way it's > historically been. It wasn't broken historically: it was a prefs setting. Also, gamers don't like it the way it is, seems like they want to completely lose the chat bar on hitting enter: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18323 The current behavior doesn't work well for either camp. From tateru.nino at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 04:12:34 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 21:12:34 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> On 1/09/2010 8:28 PM, Tofu Linden wrote: > Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > ... >> 2010-08-31T21:02:02Z WARNING: ll_apr_warn_status: APR: Too many open >> files >> >> 2010-08-31T21:02:02Z WARNING: open: Attempting to open >> filename: /home/user/.secondlife/cache/texturecache/texture.entries > ... >> not so sure anyway is a viewer problem of something specific to my >> linuxbox... is why i'm asking here if somebody else match this kind of >> crash with latest build > This is a genuine problem. Please file it in jira. Any eyes on this > would be welcome. > It seems to have popped up recently - it may be related to the latest > HTTP textures changes, not sure (perhaps leaking file handles, though > lsof says we're still somewhat under the default limits). > Hmm. It might not be an actual leak per-se... I've noticed in busy areas that the viewer will often hit a *lot* of parallel HTTP texture fetches. I'm not sure if there's a hard limit there, because my texture console can easily overflow with active texture-fetches. That's... what... 30+ and I'm guessing a minimum of two file-handles each right there (and gut feeling says there's probably closer to 3 involved). If there's no cap on the number of parallel HTTP texture fetches (or the cap is too large), then you'll see more simultaneous fetches for higher-latency users (as an artifact of each HTTP session taking longer to complete), all other things being equal. If that is the case, then it's likely to have a far lower incidence if you're on the continental USA. Altair... you're in southern Europe, right? -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Wed Sep 1 04:24:23 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 13:24:23 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Jira issues with fixes in boroondas/snowstorm-development (was: Product Backlog addition request: Build fixes for 64bit out-of-source) In-Reply-To: <4C7D501C.5040709@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C766008.1070001@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <4C78DB67.5040005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <4C7D501C.5040709@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <4C7E37E7.5080105@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 08/31/2010 08:55 PM, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > On 08/28/2010 11:48 AM, Boroondas Gupte wrote: >> I'll follow up with a new clone at the original location of my >> repository soon and will hopefully get the merges right this time. > http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/snowstorm-development/changeset/855c7fac6fc2 > (and ancestors) Make that http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/snowstorm-development/changeset/5bac0fd6a9aa So here's the list of ported/implemented JIRA issues: * everything from bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development up to the current tip (ed2130db2b59 ) o For details, please refer to Techwolf's list post . * *VWR-20891 missing LL_TEST conditions in indra/viewer_components/login/CMakeLists.txt* o This wasn't an issue in Snowglobe (or I didn't notice it there, because tests worked) so the fix isn't a port of any existing patch or SVN changeset. o Fixed at 6ea6df364e22. * *SNOW-737 Version agnostic libPNG linking* o If you ever had issues building SL against a libpng version that wasn't 1.2, try this fix o Shouldn't break anything for libpng 1.2 o Patch ported at bda128f41f35. * *VWR-20911 CMake build arch detection is inaccurate and incomplete* o Get 32/64bit-ness from the compiler rather than from the kernel o I don't need this one to be able to build, but Robin said the SNOW-512 fix (pulled from Techwolf) would be incomplete without this, so I included it. o Patch ported at a9132a63e473. o Fixed indentation at d02b22278d5b . * *SNOW-748 Building on OSX 10.6 fails with "warning: -mdynamic-no-pic overrides - fpic or -fPIC"* o Mac build warning (fatal due to |-Werror|) introduces by the SNOW-512 fix (pulled from Techwolf) + I don't have a Mac, so those who have please test this! o Functional changes from the SVN changesets ported at 483666cc9dee . o Different whitespace cleanup needed than the original changesets did. Implemented at d63b1eeffb77 . * *SNOW-650 Tries to build pulseaudio when pulseaudio not found.* o Patch applied at 3568a637ad92 . o Manual merge at 0c18347b0769 . o Fuzz 3 lead to wrong contributions.txt entry (oops), fixed at 11030238f334 . * *SNOW-592 FIXED gstreamer 0.10.28 standalone build failure* o This fix is needed when building against newer GStreamer versions o Ported at 16370ddd51a8 , some source formatting changes at 5b850e440458 . * *SNOW-764 (problem 1) Bugs showing when compiling with optimization* o I needed this patch to fix *SNOW-522 ** crash due to looking for skins/paths.xml at the wrong path*. + Not a build issue per-se, but I'd like to also use my build o Ported at 8afc8382dd9b . I also left notes at the jira issues themselves. I hope I didn't miss any. Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100901/f2798870/attachment-0001.htm From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 04:44:49 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:44:49 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Testing for VWR-20741 and sub task VWR-20933 Message-ID: <001e01cb49cb$15cf5890$416e09b0$@net> I requesting of my fellow open source community members assistance in testing the following: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20741 and sub-task: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20933 The change set for testing is here: http://bitbucket.org/WolfpupL/viewer-development/changeset/36caec874c28 From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 04:49:57 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Francesco Rabbi) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 13:49:57 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-1016502050618127300@unknownmsgid> Il giorno 01/set/2010, alle ore 13:12, Tateru Nino ha scritto: > On 1/09/2010 8:28 PM, Tofu Linden wrote: >> Altair Sythos Memo wrote: >> ... >>> 2010-08-31T21:02:02Z WARNING: ll_apr_warn_status: APR: Too many open >>> files >>> >>> 2010-08-31T21:02:02Z WARNING: open: Attempting to open >>> filename: /home/user/.secondlife/cache/texturecache/texture.entries >> ... >>> not so sure anyway is a viewer problem of something specific to my >>> linuxbox... is why i'm asking here if somebody else match this kind of >>> crash with latest build >> This is a genuine problem. Please file it in jira. Any eyes on this >> would be welcome. >> It seems to have popped up recently - it may be related to the latest >> HTTP textures changes, not sure (perhaps leaking file handles, though >> lsof says we're still somewhat under the default limits). >> > Hmm. It might not be an actual leak per-se... I've noticed in busy areas > that the viewer will often hit a *lot* of parallel HTTP texture fetches. > I'm not sure if there's a hard limit there, because my texture console > can easily overflow with active texture-fetches. That's... what... 30+ > and I'm guessing a minimum of two file-handles each right there (and gut > feeling says there's probably closer to 3 involved). > > If there's no cap on the number of parallel HTTP texture fetches (or the > cap is too large), then you'll see more simultaneous fetches for > higher-latency users (as an artifact of each HTTP session taking longer > to complete), all other things being equal. If that is the case, then > it's likely to have a far lower incidence if you're on the continental > USA. Altair... you're in southern Europe, right? Yes, and my box have default 1024 opened file limit, yesterday before sleep i've setup for 4096 and for 2h nothing happened Maybe HTTP should be throttled or childs must be reused more times, my doubt is why i have 20Mbps DSL but i live South europe download time is longer, and lock file start since download start to decode complete. This evening i open jira with full limits and enviroment specification of my box and put in cron a check each minute using lsof to monitor and stats opened file by viewer -- Sent by iPhone From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 05:34:45 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 14:34:45 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Testing for VWR-20741 and sub task VWR-20933 In-Reply-To: <001e01cb49cb$15cf5890$416e09b0$@net> References: <001e01cb49cb$15cf5890$416e09b0$@net> Message-ID: Hi, I didn't actually test it, but looked at the changeset in a review-kind-of-way, and have the following concerns: 1) It has been agreed in the past, imho, that this would be turned off by default; the current patch turns it on. 2) If there has communication with people with this turned off, and then the option is turned on; then the last part of the communication with the option turned off is shown till eternity if there wasn't some chat history today or yesterday; which is basically the same concern as point 3: 3) If there was communication -say- three days ago (but not today or yesterday), then that isn't found. A solution to point 2 and 3 would be to create a symbolic link to the last log file created and look for that instead of oldLogFileName The name of this symbolic link may not contain a date of course, and it may not be equal to ndsLogFileName. Ie, it could have -most_recent appended. On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 1:44 PM, WolfPup Lowenhar wrote: > I requesting of my fellow open source community members assistance in > testing the following: > > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20741 > > and sub-task: > > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20933 > > > > The change set for testing is here: > > http://bitbucket.org/WolfpupL/viewer-development/changeset/36caec874c28 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 06:11:16 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:11:16 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Oz Office Hours canceled today Message-ID: <4C7E50F4.30700@lindenlab.com> I'm not going to be available for my regular office hour on Wednesday Sept 1. Send mail if there was something you needed to discuss, and I'll set up a time we can meet. From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 06:24:48 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:24:48 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7E5420.3080603@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-01 7:12, Tateru Nino wrote: > Hmm. It might not be an actual leak per-se... I've noticed in busy areas > that the viewer will often hit a*lot* of parallel HTTP texture fetches. That's not very good http behavior, but I doubt that we can get it changed until the servers are properly supporting persistent connections. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100901/e1e1a7c3/attachment.htm From tateru.nino at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 06:36:27 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 23:36:27 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E5420.3080603@lindenlab.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> <4C7E5420.3080603@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C7E56DB.8070409@gmail.com> On 1/09/2010 11:24 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-01 7:12, Tateru Nino wrote: >> Hmm. It might not be an actual leak per-se... I've noticed in busy areas >> that the viewer will often hit a*lot* of parallel HTTP texture fetches. > That's not very good http behavior, but I doubt that we can get it > changed until the servers are properly supporting persistent connections. Indeed. It's not exactly best-practice. Creating a priority list of textures and a configurable concurrent requests cap (default: 16?) would probably be the way to go. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100901/2da1cdf4/attachment.htm From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 06:46:56 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Francesco Rabbi) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 15:46:56 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E56DB.8070409@gmail.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> <4C7E5420.3080603@lindenlab.com> <4C7E56DB.8070409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-7631263739969327692@unknownmsgid> Il giorno 01/set/2010, alle ore 15:36, Tateru Nino ha scritto: On 1/09/2010 11:24 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: On 2010-09-01 7:12, Tateru Nino wrote: Hmm. It might not be an actual leak per-se... I've noticed in busy areas that the viewer will often hit a **lot** of parallel HTTP texture fetches. That's not very good http behavior, but I doubt that we can get it changed until the servers are properly supporting persistent connections. Indeed. It's not exactly best-practice. Creating a priority list of textures and a configurable concurrent requests cap (default: 16?) would probably be the way to go. No, this is a client side problem in file handling, not an HTTP problem... You can parallelize billions of download, the fail (you can see in my logs) is in local filesystem file handling. Maybe there are more locks than suitable, the file/decoder handler must detect the limits and adapt the pipes. As seen in logs i suppose when a cached texture fail (timeout, bad crc for packet loss) the automatic clean try a clear_while_run wasting all openable files. If a http timeout or corrupted cached texture found the SINGLE download or the single fileust be deleted or dropped, not whole cache. If a running viewer have 600 opened tectures and got a timeout now re-open all to clean them, exceding the default 1024 limit I've noticed some grey textures too, i begin to think about the old (patched) bug about decoding fail without retry, the pipe hold the channell opened wasting resources -- Sent by iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100901/0db2c0f5/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 07:20:14 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:20:14 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <-7631263739969327692@unknownmsgid> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> <4C7E5420.3080603@lindenlab.com> <4C7E56DB.8070409@gmail.com> <-7631263739969327692@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4C7E611E.7040604@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-01 9:46, Francesco Rabbi wrote: > > No, this is a client side problem in file handling, not an HTTP > problem... You can parallelize billions of download, Whether or not you _can_, you _shouldn't_. The HTTP spec is quite clear on this point. We'd get much better performance than we're getting now if we fixed the servers to support persistent connections; there's a lot of overhead in setting up a new connection - extra round trips plus TCP slow-start. From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Wed Sep 1 07:20:57 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:20:57 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Second Pair of eyes needed! In-Reply-To: References: <001201cb4952$9aad0f90$d0072eb0$@net> Message-ID: <4C7E6149.6000900@fishkill.ibm.com> You're half right :-) Change the other "LLFILE* fptr =" to "fptr =" as well. Mike Tiggs Linden wrote: > You're shadowing fptr in the last if clause: > if (!fptr) > { > LLFILE* fptr = LLFile::fopen(oldLogFileName(filename), > "r"); /*Flawfinder: ignore*/ > LL_INFOS("") << "Old :" << file_name << LL_ENDL; > if (!fptr) > { > LLFILE* fptr = > LLFile::fopen(ndsLogFileName(file_name), "r"); /*Flawfinder: > ignore*/ > LL_INFOS("") << "Orginal:" << file_name << LL_ENDL; > if (!fptr) return; //No previous conversation > with this name. > } > } > > Change that to: > > if (!fptr) > { > fptr = LLFile::fopen(oldLogFileName(filename), > "r");/*Flawfinder: ignore*/ > LL_INFOS("") << "Old :" << file_name << LL_ENDL; > if (!fptr) > { > LLFILE* fptr = > LLFile::fopen(ndsLogFileName(file_name), "r"); /*Flawfinder: > ignore*/ > LL_INFOS("") << "Orginal:" << file_name << LL_ENDL; > if (!fptr) return; //No previous conversation > with this name. > } > } From tateru.nino at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 07:36:24 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 00:36:24 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E611E.7040604@lindenlab.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> <4C7E5420.3080603@lindenlab.com> <4C7E56DB.8070409@gmail.com> <-7631263739969327692@unknownmsgid> <4C7E611E.7040604@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C7E64E8.1020505@gmail.com> On 2/09/2010 12:20 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-01 9:46, Francesco Rabbi wrote: >> No, this is a client side problem in file handling, not an HTTP >> problem... You can parallelize billions of download, > Whether or not you _can_, you _shouldn't_. The HTTP spec is quite clear > on this point. RFC2616 makes for great reading, and the *majority* of it is superbly thought through. I spent years with a copy close-to-hand at all times. > We'd get much better performance than we're getting now if we fixed the > servers to support persistent connections; there's a lot of overhead in > setting up a new connection - extra round trips plus TCP slow-start. Concur. However, persistent connections (and possibly pipelining) will pretty much mean that you'll need to make sure you're maintaining a priority-queue of textures to fetch. Otherwise it will *feel* slower to the end-user even if it is actually faster in total fetch-and-render time. I've been down this road before. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 07:47:02 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:47:02 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E64E8.1020505@gmail.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> <4C7E5420.3080603@lindenlab.com> <4C7E56DB.8070409@gmail.com> <-7631263739969327692@unknownmsgid> <4C7E611E.7040604@lindenlab.com> <4C7E64E8.1020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7E6766.9040104@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-01 10:36, Tateru Nino wrote: > > On 2/09/2010 12:20 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> On 2010-09-01 9:46, Francesco Rabbi wrote: >>> No, this is a client side problem in file handling, not an HTTP >>> problem... You can parallelize billions of download, >> Whether or not you _can_, you _shouldn't_. The HTTP spec is quite clear >> on this point. > RFC2616 makes for great reading, and the *majority* of it is superbly > thought through. I spent years with a copy close-to-hand at all times. >> We'd get much better performance than we're getting now if we fixed the >> servers to support persistent connections; there's a lot of overhead in >> setting up a new connection - extra round trips plus TCP slow-start. > Concur. However, persistent connections (and possibly pipelining) will > pretty much mean that you'll need to make sure you're maintaining a > priority-queue of textures to fetch. Otherwise it will *feel* slower to > the end-user even if it is actually faster in total fetch-and-render > time. I've been down this road before. Correct, but that's also something we should improve anyway - doing a better job of prioritizing which textures are loaded and in what order could make things _seem_ faster, even if the total time was the same. Doing both that and the connection handling together would be a big win (file under "Faster"). From aimee at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 08:02:44 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:02:44 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] I was told this need to be dropped on the mailing list. In-Reply-To: <201008311817.56744.lists.secondlife.com@trap.wereanimal.net> References: <201008311817.56744.lists.secondlife.com@trap.wereanimal.net> Message-ID: <59C367B1-9970-4014-83DA-4FD6AEED2FF4@lindenlab.com> VWR-20751 should probably have been carried over as an incomplete task from the last sprint. Could you please add subtasks to VWR-20751 for each of these to track them? According to my notes at https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AiLvQmencIAJdFF3N21iS3NRamlvRjdqSWxOdUNhdVE&hl=en&authkey=CO7ckKkK SNOW-512 shouldn't be imported without SNOW-748 (r3499 and r3501 in Snowglobe SVN) at least, as it breaks the Mac build. Aimee. On 31 Aug 2010, at 23:17, lists.secondlife.com at trap.wereanimal.net wrote: > From http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20751 > > I've added changesets for you to work with. These are the ones I used to get > viewer-devolment to build on linux 64-bit standalone. > These patches/changeset have been updated to viewer-devolment as it was > different from snowglobe 2.x code. > > https://bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development/changeset/5a7ee78d029e > SNOW-746: Finished Google BreakPad cmake for standalone > > https://bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development/changeset/ff09fdf21fde > cmake patch from SNOW-543 updated for viewer-development > > https://bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development/changeset/fd6fcea097f0 > viewer_manifest.py fixes from SNOW-334, SNOW-47, SNOW-517, and SNOW-543. They > all touch each other code, so combined into one changeset. Add doc/contrub > credit in the right places. > > https://bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development/changeset/111a293c0e1c > VWR-20893: "class Linux_x86_64Manifest" missing from viewer_manifest.py. > Breaking linux 64-bit build. > > https://bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development/changeset/00bd21962052 > SNOW-512/SNOW-287: Build of LLPlugin fails on 64bit linux due to non PIC code > linking into the DSO. > Formatting, cleanup, and one minor change by Techwolf Lupindo. Minor change > was a move of the hunk in indra/media_plugins/webkit/CmakeLists.txt to same > area as the other plugins CmakeLists.txt files. > > https://bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development/changeset/15d19316812c > SNOW-599/SNOW-747: Pulseaudio should be optional on Linux. > > https://bitbucket.org/Techwolf/viewer-development/changeset/5697874b390b > Add missing "if (LL_TESTS)" from SNOW-651/SNOW-654 > > --------------------- > I've allready done the work. But the process to getting in the process is > still unclear. Red tape golore. I hope that can be changed. > > --Techwolf Lupindo > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Wed Sep 1 08:14:17 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:14:17 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] I was told this need to be dropped on the mailing list. In-Reply-To: <59C367B1-9970-4014-83DA-4FD6AEED2FF4@lindenlab.com> References: <201008311817.56744.lists.secondlife.com@trap.wereanimal.net> <59C367B1-9970-4014-83DA-4FD6AEED2FF4@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C7E6DC9.2020408@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Hi Aimee On 09/01/2010 05:02 PM, Aimee Linden wrote: > VWR-20751 should probably have been carried over as an incomplete task from the last sprint. Could you please add subtasks to VWR-20751 for each of these to track them? Should I do the same with the issues fixed in my repository ? > According to my notes at https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AiLvQmencIAJdFF3N21iS3NRamlvRjdqSWxOdUNhdVE&hl=en&authkey=CO7ckKkK SNOW-512 shouldn't be imported without SNOW-748 (r3499 and r3501 in Snowglobe SVN) at least, as it breaks the Mac build. I've already applied those to my repository, after pulling in Techwolf's changes. See my comment on jira . Can you test it, please? Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100901/0071bf9c/attachment.htm From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 08:14:20 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Francesco Rabbi) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:14:20 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E6766.9040104@lindenlab.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> <4C7E3522.6050007@gmail.com> <4C7E5420.3080603@lindenlab.com> <4C7E56DB.8070409@gmail.com> <-7631263739969327692@unknownmsgid> <4C7E611E.7040604@lindenlab.com> <4C7E64E8.1020505@gmail.com> <4C7E6766.9040104@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <-6338535012823708385@unknownmsgid> Il giorno 01/set/2010, alle ore 16:47, "Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)" ha scritto: > > > Correct, but that's also something we should improve anyway - doing a > better job of prioritizing which textures are loaded and in what order > could make things _seem_ faster, even if the total time was the same. > Doing both that and the connection handling together would be a big win > (file under "Faster"). May be usefull do something like old windlight... The area visible by avatar (cam or mouselook) should be splitted in slices and textures should be downloaded starting from closest slice 16 textures each 512Kbps of inbound network speed (client setup). A system for fallback on single texture if corrupted or timed out will be great... -- Sent by iPhone From aimee at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 08:42:56 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:42:56 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code review request: VWR-22454 (Teleporting multiple friends) Message-ID: Hi, Could I get some eyes on a fix for VWR-22454 (Teleporting multiple friends) please? http://bitbucket.org/aimee_linden/viewer-development-import/changeset/18f8e079a1de Aimee. From tofu at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 09:09:09 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:09:09 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code review request: VWR-22454 (Teleporting multiple friends) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7E7AA5.5090202@lindenlab.com> Looks shippable. I assume it works. Ideally the (nice) video-repro would be text-ized so it doesn't have to be decoded by QA in real time. :) +1 Aimee Linden wrote: > Hi, > > Could I get some eyes on a fix for VWR-22454 (Teleporting multiple friends) please? > > http://bitbucket.org/aimee_linden/viewer-development-import/changeset/18f8e079a1de > > Aimee. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 12:53:45 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:53:45 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] before opena Jira, APR In-Reply-To: <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> References: <20100831231027.374cf366.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7E2ADA.4080700@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100901215345.3ec8bcdc.sythos@gmail.com> On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:28:42 +0100 Tofu Linden wrote: > Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > ... > > 2010-08-31T21:02:02Z WARNING: ll_apr_warn_status: APR: Too many open > > files > > > > 2010-08-31T21:02:02Z WARNING: open: Attempting to open > > filename: /home/user/.secondlife/cache/texturecache/texture.entries > ... > > not so sure anyway is a viewer problem of something specific to my > > linuxbox... is why i'm asking here if somebody else match this kind > > of crash with latest build > > This is a genuine problem. Please file it in jira. Any eyes on this > would be welcome. > It seems to have popped up recently - it may be related to the latest > HTTP textures changes, not sure (perhaps leaking file handles, though > lsof says we're still somewhat under the default limits). http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22757 added info, but i thyink "lsof" isn't right tools, if on an empty sim (1 texture: the gorund) of if i'm in a city fullfit of textures lsof report about same numbers. is there a debug info to activate to read files opened by HTTP handler? From websuz at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 13:05:22 2010 From: websuz at gmail.com (Suz Dollar) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 13:05:22 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] System Folders to Top Message-ID: <4C7EB202.3050206@gmail.com> As a user, I would like to be able to turn off the forced system folders to top. This used to be an obvious and easy thing to change back and forth on the fly and now seems to have been removed and relegated to the debug menu. As an advanced user, I can work with the debug setting for this, but it seems anti-intuitive to remove this when many who go into biz may simply need their own folders at the top and most easily accessible. From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Wed Sep 1 13:14:02 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 16:14:02 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] multiwearable userstories Message-ID: As a user, the new mutliwearables are incrdibly nice, but now make some things a little tricky. I have collected three related userstories addressing them. 1) As a user, I would like a way to keep my huds (and hair) from being stripped off if I replace my outfit. 2) As a user I would like an option to replace just the clothing portions of an outfit, as well as the ability to replace a single layer of clothing in an outfit. 3) As a user I would like the ability to remove a given clothing item on a layer from the remove clothing menu without having to click remove (layername) until that item is gone. 4) As a user I would like to have an ao integrated into the UI so I don't have to worry about accidentally removing it if i change outfits. Cummere Mayo... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100901/701b81e1/attachment.htm From kadah.coba at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 13:46:10 2010 From: kadah.coba at gmail.com (Kadah) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 13:46:10 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Removal of the "MultipleAttachments" debug settings ? In-Reply-To: <8C095A78-39F8-4319-8DFF-73A83CA3877F@gmail.com> References: <4C7C16E9.6010202@gmail.com> <8313138446845496260@unknownmsgid> <1283312404.2758.3.camel@glen-desktop> <8C095A78-39F8-4319-8DFF-73A83CA3877F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7EBB92.3060202@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 9/1/2010 4:09 AM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > It wasn't broken historically: it was a prefs setting. > > Also, gamers don't like it the way it is, seems like they want to completely lose the chat bar on hitting enter: > > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18323 > > The current behavior doesn't work well for either camp. I prefer WASD movement, but the current method has a lot of focus control issues where enter doesn't always bring focus to the chat bar. I'm having to use the mouse all the time to do this. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMfruSAAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2zVUH/ijuHRiyltlTkb1pL0dSIxIN Zo8jbka4mtM2AL/b3GkfVAiIwuVGDeLaaBrGRgne2PlIF9M4D3Jw5EkNJciUGGZN FovcffozVHNYUjc7EboNDXNzZlVxMZEvWeEoaMldIsDsZYcwjdMGm4wtfjwyRos1 y9fbeMXM31vXRP0uRmWSkcyih7TvYByv++CaoAfASwzyU6F6erXRS4ZOvp1CKudW d6IpDG/RjDhhhjqq2NXboSv8/YtcDZGaeLO3uhgx+iime7uDVqI6y8eNe/uATyuE tCS19v9PArpZsiGQ8r9OkmrS0gf2n1kTsZ7eN3C7PKo8hJdljwzbKVsimDhu8nU= =jkKK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Wed Sep 1 13:49:34 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:49:34 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] System Folders to Top In-Reply-To: <4C7EB202.3050206@gmail.com> References: <4C7EB202.3050206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201009012249.34447.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Wednesday 01 September 2010 schrieb Suz Dollar: > As a user, I would like to be able to turn off the forced system > folders to top. This used to be an obvious and easy thing to > change back and forth on the fly and now seems to have been > removed and relegated to the debug menu. there's a debug menu item for that??? where which what how???? bye, LC From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 13:54:10 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 22:54:10 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Removal of the "MultipleAttachments" debug settings ? In-Reply-To: <4C7EBB92.3060202@gmail.com> References: <4C7C16E9.6010202@gmail.com> <8313138446845496260@unknownmsgid> <1283312404.2758.3.camel@glen-desktop> <8C095A78-39F8-4319-8DFF-73A83CA3877F@gmail.com> <4C7EBB92.3060202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100901225410.242e94a7.sythos@gmail.com> On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 13:46:10 -0700 Kadah wrote: > I prefer WASD movement, but the current method has a lot of focus > control issues where enter doesn't always bring focus to the chat bar. > I'm having to use the mouse all the time to do this. I htink is better give as option to residents, a lot of ppl got crazy without a fixed focus on chatbar... From websuz at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 14:04:06 2010 From: websuz at gmail.com (Suz Dollar) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:04:06 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] System Folders to Top In-Reply-To: <201009012249.34447.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <4C7EB202.3050206@gmail.com> <201009012249.34447.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C7EBFC6.1010001@gmail.com> Inventory.SystemFoldersToTop Set to false will put the folders in full alpha numeric order with special characters like ! at the top. Set to True will leave it with system folders always at the top. I've had it with the system folders mixed in for so long that it held the preference somewhere long after the option dropped in 2.x. I had to go back to 1.23 to figure out where the menu option was missing. This should be somewhere on our options gadget, a loss imo from 1.23. Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Wednesday 01 September 2010 schrieb Suz Dollar: > >> As a user, I would like to be able to turn off the forced system >> folders to top. This used to be an obvious and easy thing to >> change back and forth on the fly and now seems to have been >> removed and relegated to the debug menu. >> > > there's a debug menu item for that??? where which what how???? > > > > bye, > LC > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > From gcanaday at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 14:39:20 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 17:39:20 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Removal of the "MultipleAttachments" debug settings ? In-Reply-To: <8C095A78-39F8-4319-8DFF-73A83CA3877F@gmail.com> References: <4C7C16E9.6010202@gmail.com> <8313138446845496260@unknownmsgid> <1283312404.2758.3.camel@glen-desktop> <8C095A78-39F8-4319-8DFF-73A83CA3877F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1283377160.2014.1.camel@glen-desktop> People on this list got pretty vitriolic about it only a few months ago - I was under the impression the gamers wanted it the way it is. Where was this ever a pref setting? I don't recall ever seeing it. --GC On Wed, 2010-09-01 at 06:09 -0500, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > On 2010-08-31, at 22:40, Glen Canaday wrote: > > Gamers like it broken like it is now, people who SOCIALIZE here (since > > SL is, in fact, *not* a game... ahem) like it broken the way it's > > historically been. > > It wasn't broken historically: it was a prefs setting. > > Also, gamers don't like it the way it is, seems like they want to completely lose the chat bar on hitting enter: > > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18323 > > The current behavior doesn't work well for either camp. From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 15:06:25 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:06:25 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] jira? avatar_lad.xml Message-ID: <20100902000625.bfdba2ec.sythos@gmail.com> in last 2.1.2 build in mouselook all items are rezzed, i've hair worn on Skull, in avatar_lad.xml i see: but in mouselook i see my hair.... how/where can i check if file correctly readed and parsed or the trouble is elsewhere? From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 15:14:37 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:14:37 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] jira? avatar_lad.xml In-Reply-To: <20100902000625.bfdba2ec.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100902000625.bfdba2ec.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100902001437.2f141fa9.sythos@gmail.com> On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:06:25 +0200 Altair "Sythos" Memo wrote: > in last 2.1.2 build in mouselook all items are rezzed, i've hair worn > on Skull, in avatar_lad.xml i see: > > id="2" > group="2" > pie_slice="2" > name="Skull" > joint="mHead" > position="0 0 0.15" > rotation="0 0 90" > visible_in_first_person="false" /> > > but in mouselook i see my hair.... > > how/where can i check if file correctly readed and parsed or the > trouble is elsewhere? just checked... ALL attachments are visible in mouselook, shoes rings and belt too.... From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Wed Sep 1 15:36:04 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 00:36:04 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Own attachments visible in mouselook (was: jira? avatar_lad.xml) In-Reply-To: <20100902001437.2f141fa9.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100902000625.bfdba2ec.sythos@gmail.com> <20100902001437.2f141fa9.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7ED554.9010304@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 09/02/2010 12:14 AM, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > just checked... ALL attachments are visible in mouselook, shoes rings > and belt too.... Sounds like VWR-22022 . Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100902/217875a3/attachment-0001.htm From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 15:53:13 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:53:13 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Own attachments visible in mouselook (was: jira? avatar_lad.xml) In-Reply-To: <4C7ED554.9010304@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <20100902000625.bfdba2ec.sythos@gmail.com> <20100902001437.2f141fa9.sythos@gmail.com> <4C7ED554.9010304@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <20100902005313.d035cd17.sythos@gmail.com> On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 00:36:04 +0200 Boroondas Gupte wrote: > On 09/02/2010 12:14 AM, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > > just checked... ALL attachments are visible in mouselook, shoes > > rings and belt too.... > Sounds like VWR-22022 . yes sound like... but why i've received 5 copies of your email? O_o From stickman at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 20:48:00 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 20:48:00 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] jira? avatar_lad.xml In-Reply-To: <20100902001437.2f141fa9.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100902000625.bfdba2ec.sythos@gmail.com> <20100902001437.2f141fa9.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: > just checked... ALL attachments are visible in mouselook, shoes rings > and belt too.... There's an option in preferences: "show avatar in mouselook." It moved in 2.x, but it's still there. Unless they took it out in 2.1. Turning it off should make your attachments not visible in mouselook. Or are you saying they're visible regardless of the option? I think I'd get more complaints about it from customers if you were. I haven't gotten any in a while. Stickman From esbee at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 23:31:14 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson)) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 23:31:14 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 09/01/2010 Message-ID: <3B48D57A-6C42-4AE0-A7C6-E2DE4C70F899@lindenlab.com> Date: Wed Sep 1 Daily Scrum Summary also available online: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive == GENERAL NOTES == Don't forget to keep the Sprint Backlog up to date! Put your name beside the one you're working on Update your time remaining on that task at the end of each day! == DAILY SCRUM == === Aimee === PAST Sprint retrospective. Sprint planning. Merged minimap panning (VWR-13221) Merged minimap avatar inspectors (VWR-17653) FUTURE Test minimap panning and avatar inspectors Merge and test teleporting multiple friends (VWR-22454) IMPEDIMENTS None === Tofu === PAST VWR-22162 FIXED I can't add negative signs to TWIST in Edit Mode VWR-21717 PARTIAL Classfied Ads - "Adult" cannot be chosen FUTURE VWR-21717 Classfied Ads - "Adult" cannot be chosen IMPEDIMENTS current task may cross over into dataserver work. I don't think the Snowstorm team is equipped for that... at least I'm not. === Oz === Note: Office Hour canceled for today PAST Wiki updates FUTURE Post first Development build on secondlife.com ! More wiki updates Investigate setting up an on line code review system IMPEDIMENTS None === Merov === PAST Sprint planning and retrospective LLKDU upgrade: contacted Kakadu, license upgrade work to be done As a user, I'd like to share snapshots within my group freely so that we all feel more connected as a group: merge done, pushed to merov_linden/viewer-development-import As a machinima creator, I'd like to be able to turn off scripted lights so that my shoot looks more realistic: merge done, pushed to merov_linden/viewer-development-import As a user, I'd like to set particles off so that I can make good photographs: merge done, pushed to merov_linden/viewer-development-import As a builder, I want to get rulers well aligned so that I can make things fit with precision: merge done, pushed to merov_linden/viewer-development-import Snowglobe OH FUTURE LLKDU upgrade: make progress on instrumentation, sync with team chopper As a user, I'd like to get chat translated in my language so that I can make more friends: merge in merov_linden/viewer-development-features IMPEDIMENTS Kakadu license upgrade === Q === OOO === Esbee === PAST Sprint retrospective. Sprint planning. Many, many meetings FUTURE Prep for interview with Dusan Writer Snowstorm Blog Post Backlog Grooming Office hours IMPEDIMENTS None === Paul === PAST BUG vwr-22724 (Clicking an attachment switches the Add More inventory to Flat view) Pushed BUG vwr-22723 (Add More category picker defaults whenever a clothing item is removed Pushed review docs on new workflow FUTURE VWR-21585 (Make all tabs support horizontal resizing). Special thanks to Vadim Savchuk for help in pushing tickets according to the new workflow. IMPEDIMENTS none === Andrew === PAST Task VWR-20702 (bottom bar order of the buttons as they appear in the UI.) WIP. Finished VWR-20705 (Drag & Drop implementation), cleanup and send for review tomorrow Task VWR-20706 (Make sure auto-hiding and shrinking buttons still work). Investigated, consulted dev who worked on it before, estimate - 4h FUTURE * finish VWR-20705 (Drag & Drop implementation). * Task VWR-20706 (Make sure auto-hiding and shrinking buttons still work). IMPEDIMENTS * none === Vadim === PAST *Task VWR-20926 (Enable sidebar to track detaching/attaching tabs): ** Submitted according to the new process. *Task VWR-21127 (Implement saving size and position of detached tabs): ** Asked Anya a few questions. Implementation will depend on the answers. *Bug VWR-22280 (Viewer: add "language" parameter to Buy LindeX Floater's XMLRPC call): **Fixed, submitted according to the new process. *Created a Bitbucket repo for the SB tabs work and transplanted all our changesets submitted so far from viewer-experimental to that repo. Helped PG with resubmitting his yesterday's changes in the new fashion. FUTURE *Task VWR-21127 (Implement saving size and position of detached tabs): Will proceed with it if I get the answers. *Will help Sergey with polishing the feature or pick some bugs to work on. IMPEDIMENTS *none === Sergey === PAST * Task (VWR-21060) Fix broken ability to open a side tray tab via shortcut, menu item or button outside of the Side Tray. **WIP. Estimated: 1-2 hours left. FUTURE * Task (VWR-20696) Write code to allow for undocking of a sidebar tab **Fix calling onOpen() for undocked tabs. Estimated: 3-4 hours. *Task (VWR-20697) Write code to allow for redocking of a sidebar tab **Fix dock/undock buttons changing depending on tab state. Estimated: 1-2 hours. IMPEDIMENTS none === Anya === PAST QA process for snowstorm (agreed no need for QARTS for just one tester), Andrey will test builds and report results in a spreadsheet shared with snowstorm team (should it be publicly available?) jira followup after Esbees awesome sweep long EC-WC flight with no wifi! FUTURE sprint planning Follow up design discussion in VWR-20695 (tear-off tabs, various UI suggestions in comments) make sure fixes pushed yesterday will be put up on bitbucket IMPEDIMENTS it will take us some time to get used to the new process. === WolfPup Lowenhar === VWR-20741 ans its sub task is ready for review -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100901/fb32b595/attachment-0001.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 1 23:57:48 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson)) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 23:57:48 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Sprint 2 Retrospective Notes Posted Message-ID: <394743EF-F7F9-476F-A86D-8D2908498F19@lindenlab.com> Notes from our Sprint Retrospective meeting on Tuesday are now posted (finally!) https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Sprint_Retrospective_Archive Cheers! Esbee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100901/1aebd3ec/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 2 00:05:47 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson)) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 00:05:47 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Esbee Linden's OH Transcript Posted for 09/01/2010 Message-ID: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Esbee_Linden/Office_Hours/2010-09-01 Links to all previous OHs will be posted here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Esbee_Linden Thanks to everyone who participated! Best, Esbee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100902/b88c1839/attachment.htm From latifer at streamgrid.net Thu Sep 2 00:20:21 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:20:21 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] jira? avatar_lad.xml In-Reply-To: References: <20100902000625.bfdba2ec.sythos@gmail.com> <20100902001437.2f141fa9.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: Seems to be a regression in 2.1.2. On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Stickman wrote: >> just checked... ALL attachments are visible in mouselook, shoes rings >> and belt too.... > > There's an option in preferences: "show avatar in mouselook." It moved > in 2.x, but it's still there. Unless they took it out in 2.1. Turning > it off should make your attachments not visible in mouselook. > > Or are you saying they're visible regardless of the option? I think > I'd get more complaints about it from customers if you were. I haven't > gotten any in a while. > > Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From latifer at streamgrid.net Thu Sep 2 00:46:03 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:46:03 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Sprint 3 : request for testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tested: SNOW-681 / VWR-1852 SNOW-683 / VWR-8726 SNOW-680 / VWR-10854 From tofu at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 2 03:37:22 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 11:37:22 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Sprint 3 : request for testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C7F7E62.2090901@lindenlab.com> Great - cheers - I've pulled these to viewer-development. Latif Khalifa wrote: > Tested: > > SNOW-681 / VWR-1852 > SNOW-683 / VWR-8726 > SNOW-680 / VWR-10854 > > From the test build posted, and they all work as expected. \o/ > > Latif > > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Philippe (Merov) Bossut > wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I merged 4 Snowglobe 2.x fixes to merov_linden/viewer-development-import and >> would like some tests from folks knowledgeable in the features before >> pulling that in lindenlab/viewer-development. >> >> Binaries are available at : >> http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/merov_viewer-development-import/rev/208842/index.html >> >> The 4 fixes are: >> - SNOW-681 / VWR-1852 : Local ruler mode aligned incorrectly for linked >> objects >> - SNOW-684 / VWR-4232 : Some particles don't disappear when UI is hidden >> - SNOW-683 / VWR-8726 : Turn off swirling lights for scripted objects >> - SNOW-680 / VWR-10854 : Honour share with group and allow anyone to copy >> for snapshots >> >> Tests and comments welcome. >> >> Cheers, >> - Merov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From daleinnisemail at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 06:53:25 2010 From: daleinnisemail at gmail.com (Dale Innis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 09:53:25 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Esbee Linden's OH Transcript Posted for 09/01/2010 In-Reply-To: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> References: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Esbee Linden wrote: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Esbee_Linden/Office_Hours/2010-09-01 You have th' patience of a saint. :) I think the script or whatever that generates the transcripts has a bug or two. Note in the attendee list such amusing names as: 3 Person Bring back CloseChatOnReturn fails Leave LOCATION s Google fwiw, Dale From esbee at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 2 06:55:07 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 06:55:07 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Esbee Linden's OH Transcript Posted for 09/01/2010 In-Reply-To: References: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Ha! Thanks. Patience is my specialty. And I think you're right about the script, I better find a different one to post these transcripts :) Thanks for pointing it out! Cheers, Esbee On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Dale Innis wrote: > On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Esbee Linden wrote: > > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Esbee_Linden/Office_Hours/2010-09-01 > > You have th' patience of a saint. :) > > I think the script or whatever that generates the transcripts has a > bug or two. Note in the attendee list such amusing names as: > > 3 Person > Bring back > CloseChatOnReturn fails > Leave LOCATION > s Google > > fwiw, > Dale > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100902/72dd2028/attachment.htm From talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com Thu Sep 2 08:13:24 2010 From: talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com (Talia Tokugawa) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 16:13:24 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Message-ID: Hi, first post on this mailing list. So I wake up this morning and I Login to SL using Snowstorm and I am instantly annoyed it's not Emerald. I got to thinking on the subject of viewers, secondlife and the general usage thereof. There are many different user types, new residents, power users, lindens, developers etc. Yet there are only a limited number of Viewers and TPV that you can pick from. X number of holes for a potentially unlimited number of blocks to fit into. I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and requirements. If you look at the lists of features that are currently available to people and then try fit them to the different user stories how do you justify that? So for example. We take a look at the "New Resident" profile. They arrive in Second Life. No community gateway and only wiki/kb to assist them. They have this big program to learn.. How much of this could be stripped out to plugins to reduce the UI cliff that they have just ran into. Very simple starting example here. LSL editor. How many users (not just new users) actually code? This "program" could be taken out and made into a plugin. Likewise with the edit windows. New users could quite happily do without having a full edit window. Maybe just reduce that to a "fitting" window for attachments. Have a basic window with Pos/Rot/Scale. Both these examples are something that different user stories would need, but just confuse things for the new user, then as the user becomes familiar with what they want they can get plugins to enable them to take on different roles. Say then want to start making attachments. They would goto the plugin repository and get the "advanced edit" window. Later down the line they decide they want to get themselves some land and do some landscaping they'd go back to the repository and get themselves the "land tools" plugin. This is just a very simple case study for how this system would appear to the users. I guess it wouldn't be to hard to supply clients with plugin bundles. Different user profiles could get the basic stripped down vanilla client with a specific set of plugins tailored to their requirements, going right through to a full official client with all the plugins to have a client that is as capable as the current clients. I think given this structure, third party plugins over third party viewers would become far more common place. If you look through the feature requests list for snowstorm. Half the items on that list are features that come direct from Emerald. In terms of keeping an eye on things it would be a lot easier for LL too. If a system were set in place where the source of the plugins were uploaded to LL for addition into the plugin repository the Labs could check through the code before compiling and getting the LL seal of approval. As opposed to the current system of TPV where a new viewer is compiled by one person from a team and the whole system relies on trust of that one person (ref. emerald). Anyways, my two pence on the whole viewer thing ;) Talia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100902/11dd7174/attachment-0001.htm From sythos at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 08:21:38 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Francesco Rabbi) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 17:21:38 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-122042096460705960@unknownmsgid> Every emerald developer if free to join project viewer trunk and toss patches (and not only developers from emerald) -- Sent by iPhone Il giorno 02/set/2010, alle ore 17:13, Talia Tokugawa ha scritto: > Hi, first post on this mailing list. > So I wake up this morning and I Login to SL using Snowstorm and I am instantly annoyed it's not Emerald. I got to thinking on the subject of viewers, secondlife and the general usage thereof. There are many different user types, new residents, power users, lindens, developers etc. Yet there are only a limited number of Viewers and TPV that you can pick from. X number of holes for a potentially unlimited number of blocks to fit into. > > I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and requirements. > > If you look at the lists of features that are currently available to people and then try fit them to the different user stories how do you justify that? > > So for example. We take a look at the "New Resident" profile. They arrive in Second Life. No community gateway and only wiki/kb to assist them. They have this big program to learn.. How much of this could be stripped out to plugins to reduce the UI cliff that they have just ran into. Very simple starting example here. LSL editor. How many users (not just new users) actually code? This "program" could be taken out and made into a plugin. Likewise with the edit windows. New users could quite happily do without having a full edit window. Maybe just reduce that to a "fitting" window for attachments. Have a basic window with Pos/Rot/Scale. Both these examples are something that different user stories would need, but just confuse things for the new user, then as the user becomes familiar with what they want they can get plugins to enable them to take on different roles. Say then want to start making attachments. They would goto the plugin repository and get the "advanced edit" window. Later down the line they decide they want to get themselves some land and do some landscaping they'd go back to the repository and get themselves the "land tools" plugin. > > This is just a very simple case study for how this system would appear to the users. I guess it wouldn't be to hard to supply clients with plugin bundles. Different user profiles could get the basic stripped down vanilla client with a specific set of plugins tailored to their requirements, going right through to a full official client with all the plugins to have a client that is as capable as the current clients. > > I think given this structure, third party plugins over third party viewers would become far more common place. If you look through the feature requests list for snowstorm. Half the items on that list are features that come direct from Emerald. > > In terms of keeping an eye on things it would be a lot easier for LL too. If a system were set in place where the source of the plugins were uploaded to LL for addition into the plugin repository the Labs could check through the code before compiling and getting the LL seal of approval. As opposed to the current system of TPV where a new viewer is compiled by one person from a team and the whole system relies on trust of that one person (ref. emerald). > > Anyways, my two pence on the whole viewer thing ;) > Talia > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From kuraiko at gmx.net Thu Sep 2 09:30:40 2010 From: kuraiko at gmx.net (Kuraiko Yoshikawa) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 18:30:40 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Esbee Linden's OH Transcript Posted for 09/01/2010 In-Reply-To: References: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C7FD130.2040108@gmx.net> The generator isn't up2date and was build long time before viewer2.x was released. "name detection" was allways a lil problem also yes it has some bugs... and I guess display names will kill it completely ;-) Am 02.09.2010 15:55, schrieb Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson: > Ha! Thanks. Patience is my specialty. > > And I think you're right about the script, I better find a different > one to post these transcripts :) > > Thanks for pointing it out! > > Cheers, > Esbee > > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Dale Innis > wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Esbee Linden > wrote: > > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Esbee_Linden/Office_Hours/2010-09-01 > > You have th' patience of a saint. :) > > I think the script or whatever that generates the transcripts has a > bug or two. Note in the attendee list such amusing names as: > > 3 Person > Bring back > CloseChatOnReturn fails > Leave LOCATION > s Google > > fwiw, > Dale > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100902/7ceb9d19/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Thu Sep 2 10:07:09 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 19:07:09 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] [IDEA] built-in chatlog wikification (was: Esbee Linden's OH Transcript Posted for 09/01/2010) In-Reply-To: <4C7FD130.2040108@gmx.net> References: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> <4C7FD130.2040108@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4C7FD9BD.2040009@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 09/02/2010 06:30 PM, Kuraiko Yoshikawa wrote: > The generator isn't up2date and was build long time before viewer2.x > was released. "name detection" was allways a lil problem also yes it > has some bugs... and I guess display names will kill it completely ;-) Thinking about it, the Viewer itself would actually be in a much better position to produce a wikified chatlog than any log parser can be with the current log format. The Viewer "knows" what's an Avatar or object name and what a system message and could mark them up accordingly. Also, the Viewer "knows" what is a multi-line message and what multiple messages. So additionally to the current log (which is good suited for human consumption and thus should be kept) it could optionally either create a wikified log with MediaWiki syntax right away (because the official SL wiki is MediaWiki based), or, if we want to be more flexible, a log that contains sufficient meta-info for a parser to interpret it correctly (XML? LLSD?) Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100902/ab88bc21/attachment.htm From kf6kjg at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 10:49:17 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 10:49:17 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] [IDEA] built-in chatlog wikification (was: Esbee Linden's OH Transcript Posted for 09/01/2010) In-Reply-To: <4C7FD9BD.2040009@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> <4C7FD130.2040108@gmx.net> <4C7FD9BD.2040009@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: Well, if the log was XML an attached XSL stylesheet would be able to format it for general consumption in a web browser... Could even be potentially possible with LLSD since it is based in xml, but may be more difficult to make a good XSL document due to the fact that LLSD is not context-free. (The descriptor and content are sibling nodes. This caused me much headache many months ago!) LLSD: Easy to export from the viewer, harder to make a solid XSL stylesheet (I may be wrong) XML: Harder to export from the viewer, potentially easier to make an XSL stylesheet, requires defining the new "markup language" for logs. With the XSL in place, the conventional textual logs could be done aways with as the new log format is viewable in a very user-friendly fashion by the user's favorite web browser. Could even be styled to look like the chat window, have filtering options powered by JavaScript, etc... Could be a good building block if done right. Ricky Cron Stardust On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > On 09/02/2010 06:30 PM, Kuraiko Yoshikawa wrote: > > The generator isn't up2date and was build long time before viewer2.x was > released. "name detection" was allways a lil problem also yes it has some > bugs... and I guess display names will kill it completely ;-) > > Thinking about it, the Viewer itself would actually be in a much better > position to produce a wikified chatlog than any log parser can be with the > current log format. The Viewer "knows" what's an Avatar or object name and > what a system message and could mark them up accordingly. Also, the Viewer > "knows" what is a multi-line message and what multiple messages. > > So additionally to the current log (which is good suited for human > consumption and thus should be kept) it could optionally either create a > wikified log with MediaWiki syntax right away (because the official SL wiki > is MediaWiki based), or, if we want to be more flexible, a log that contains > sufficient meta-info for a parser to interpret it correctly (XML? LLSD?) > > Cheers, > Boroondas > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From josh at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 2 12:34:47 2010 From: josh at lindenlab.com (Joshua Bell) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 12:34:47 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] [IDEA] built-in chatlog wikification (was: Esbee Linden's OH Transcript Posted for 09/01/2010) In-Reply-To: References: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> <4C7FD130.2040108@gmx.net> <4C7FD9BD.2040009@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Ricky wrote: > Could even be > potentially possible with LLSD since it is based in xml, but may be > more difficult to make a good XSL document due to the fact that LLSD > is not context-free. (The descriptor and content are sibling nodes. > This caused me much headache many months ago!) > You can use XPaths like key[text()='KEYNAMEHERE']/following-sibling::* to do key/value processing over XML-serialized LLSD in XSLT. For example, given this XML-serialized LLSD: speaker Joshua Linden text Hello, world timestamp 2010-09-02T12:11:44Z speaker Joshua Linden text It's lonely here timestamp 2010-09-02T12:12:32Z You can process it with this XSLT: Chat Log
To get this HTML output: Chat Log
2010-09-02T12:11:44Z Joshua Linden Hello, world
2010-09-02T12:12:32Z Joshua Linden It's lonely here
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URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100902/b5cf608b/attachment.htm From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 12:31:45 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:31:45 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Robin Cornelius wrote: > As mentioned at Oz's OH yesterday, I would like to try to finish off > the Socks 5 proxy work in the sprint about to start, my repository can > be found at --snip-- I've created a Windows test setup.exe that includes the latest version of the VWR-20801 code, this can be found at http://www.byteme.org.uk/downloads/Second_Life_2-1-2-0_LindenDeveloper_Setup.exe Note, i've done a default Release build and package, so the Viewer will install under "LindenDeveloper" and appear on your start menu as that, the build contains only the latest (as of yesterday) viewer-development code + my code from https://bitbucket.org/robincornelius/viewer-development-vwr-20801. It would be very useful to find some SL users who are having access problems from behind a firewall and can also either get access to, or get their network admin to set up a Socks 5 proxy server for them to get acccess to SL via. The Socks 5 settings can be found on the Setup tab of preferences. Regards Robin From nyx at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 2 13:49:45 2010 From: nyx at lindenlab.com (Nyx Linden) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2010 16:49:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Removal of the "MultipleAttachments" debug settings ? In-Reply-To: <4C78309A.2070200@lindenlab.com> References: <4C76CD68.9060001@lindenlab.com> <0B676E75-668D-4123-BEB0-91F4EDC23660@gmail.com> <4C76D203.5040908@lindenlab.com> <3A305DF3-FFF4-47E3-A8A9-2D330749D0F8@gmail.com> <4C781C3E.3020808@gmail.com> <9E57E22C-9405-47DD-A3A1-2870EAE9A075@gmail.com> <4C78309A.2070200@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C800DE9.7070600@lindenlab.com> This is fixed internally in the ECC project branch. Once that merges into viewer-development (we have the same submission process for merging as you guys do!), I'll post here to ask everyone to test out the fix. Thanks! -Nyx Nyx Linden wrote: > Its a bug. We're going to fix it. This isn't the final behavior. > > -Nyx > > Trilo Byte wrote: >> I thought that was the whole point of creating outfit folders to >> begin with. >> Get your avatar looking exactly the way you want, attachments >> and all, then save it to a folder for fast/easy/fun one click >> wardrobe change. New behavior makes outfit folders decidedly >> less fast/easy/fun to work with. >> >> On Aug 27, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Kadah wrote: >> >> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1 >>> >>> On 8/27/2010 8:37 AM, Trilo Byte wrote: >>> >>>> Nyx, I did also notice that if you wear an outfit folder that makes >>>> use of mutliple attachments in v2.1.2, it no longer works properly. >>>> >>>> Instead of putting on all the items in the user-specified folder, it >>>> only puts on the first attachment the viewer gets to. Any >>>> additional ones are left un-worn, and must be added to the outfit >>>> manually, one at a time. >>>> >>> I can verifiy this is the case with 2.1.2.208673. Made a new outfit >>> that >>> has 2 tails, took everything off, did wear-replace with new outfit. Saw >>> the first one pop on for a moment then replaced by the 2nd one a moment >>> later. Wear-add had the same effect. >>> >>> Kinda defeats the purpose of 2's outfits if it don't work together with >>> multi-attach :P >>> >>> Would be nice if I could also put on all items in a folder with >>> multi-attach. Would be nice for those infrequently used collection of >>> items that aren't associated to any one outfit. >>> >>> Its a little confusing now that "add" has different meanings on >>> different items. "Add" on a single item attaches it without replace, >>> "add" on a folder/outfit replaces existing on same points. >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) >>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ >>> >>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMeBw+AAoJEIdLfPRu7qE2DTMH/iuCUdlibLH4Xt64AaJa3Cnt >>> 8RjXYbtkm3MjtgK/m+a+lV/lngO7regiVshDMUo55mdUbzA0MNgI9bdsEkXJQfzY >>> NJQGr5bcC4ls3clnY9oVOSdZKncuq0N/tU6Smno8Y4M4LzCmIj2WEyjWC77U9sOC >>> bTtmGwHdTnJqEWGVuei1ABvg5QgLaqBymSKTVcXyGr2wVtEC+HxTSYFWKe33tyow >>> 7Uvvw/yO0fn5sXfdgacCpepRdlq73Z6BDHMyOFd2KMZHQ+eRiL15cbua5BLE09ui >>> NeBmu8NMMvFkCKpBvl0cEhnI+DklHmYFxmxNdYpMpOMwCzWdES0luVZ1kyFHkeM= >>> =ZQJu >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > From kf6kjg at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 14:43:59 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:43:59 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] [IDEA] built-in chatlog wikification (was: Esbee Linden's OH Transcript Posted for 09/01/2010) In-Reply-To: References: <5E5FB4D0-7201-458D-BE2B-ADE0B48B8FA4@lindenlab.com> <4C7FD130.2040108@gmx.net> <4C7FD9BD.2040009@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: Thanks Joshua! I'd forgotten about following-sibling. You might remember our conversation in early 2009 when I was fighting through using an XPath query on install.xml... That was fun, but it worked well for me for a long while; I still use it in my Linux build script! To accomodate future issues, maybe entries for UUID, SourceType (Agent, Object, Error, etc.), and more could be integrated? Here's a better listing of the fields we might be looking at: * timestamp - need I say more? * uuid - the UUID/key of the "speaker" * type - Agent/Object/Error/... * name - Object name or Display Name (if Agent) * text - what was said If the type is an agent, then the following field would be convenient: * account - The avatar's account name (assuming this is public information, as I currently understand it to be. Not a judgement on whether or not it should be public however!) Another bonus of this approach is that it should be fairly easy to convert the XSLT for going to HTML into one that generates WikiMarkup. Then it's standard XSLT tools to build an export-to-wiki process. So... Should this be a JIRA feature request now? Any other comments? Ricky Cron Stardust On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Joshua Bell wrote: > On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Ricky wrote: >> >> Could even be >> potentially possible with LLSD since it is based in xml, but may be >> more difficult to make a good XSL document due to the fact that LLSD >> is not context-free. (The descriptor and content are sibling nodes. >> This caused me much headache many months ago!) > > You can use XPaths like key[text()='KEYNAMEHERE']/following-sibling::* to do > key/value processing over XML-serialized LLSD in XSLT. > For example, given this XML-serialized LLSD: > > > ?? > ?? ? > ?? ? ?speaker > ?? ? ?Joshua Linden > ?? ? ?text > ?? ? ?Hello, world > ?? ? ?timestamp > ?? ? ?2010-09-02T12:11:44Z > ?? ? > ?? ? > ?? ? ?speaker > ?? ? ?Joshua Linden > ?? ? ?text > ?? ? ?It's lonely here > ?? ? ?timestamp > ?? ? ?2010-09-02T12:12:32Z > ?? ? > ?? > > You can process it with this XSLT: > > version="1.0"> > > > ?? > ?? ?Chat Log > ?? ? > ?? ? ? > ?? ? ? ? > ?? ? ? > ?? ?
> ?? > > > ?? > ?? ? > ?? ? ? /> > ?? ? > ?? ? > ?? ? ? > ?? ? > ?? ? > ?? ? ? > ?? ? > ?? > > > To get this HTML output: > > Chat Log > > > > > > > > > > > >
2010-09-02T12:11:44ZJoshua LindenHello, world
2010-09-02T12:12:32ZJoshua LindenIt's lonely here
> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Thu Sep 2 17:41:12 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 02:41:12 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] =?utf-8?q?Request_for_review/testing=3A_VWR-2058?= =?utf-8?q?3_submenu_indicators_=28=E2=96=B6_a=2Ek=2Ea=2E_U+25B6=29_should?= =?utf-8?q?n=27t_be_hard-coded_in_context_menu_sub_menu_names?= Message-ID: <4C804428.5030404@boroon.dasgupta.ch> As far as I know, VWR-20583 is on neither Product Backlog nor Sprint List, yet, but Tofu asked me about this on jira and already imported a fix for a /symptom/ of which this issue here is IMHO the /cause/. My fix for this underlying issue can be found at http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/viewer-development-vwr-20583 How my fix works Up to now, all menu entries except those context menus automatically generated the submenu indicator when they had sub-entries. Context menu entries didn't to that, so the "?" had to be explicitly encoded in the labels in the XUI files (for all submenu labels in all languages). I guess this was necessary in Viewer 1.x, because the generic way of adding a ">" (which was the indicator back then), wouldn't work for pie menus. Now though, that context menus are regular rectangular menus, their entries can be handled just like other menu entries (regarding the "?", at least) and that's what the changeset does . The big bulky rest of the changeset just removes all the hard-coded "?" (and some left over ">" (>) for the Portuguese localization) from the context menus of all supported languages (except nl, which doesn't seem to have localized context menus for some reason), so they won't display twice now. Impact for users As long as all hard-coded strings are in-sync, users wouldn't notice VWR-20583 nor its fix, except for whether the triangles aren't right-aligned in context menus (as they are in the main menus, so the fix makes this consistent, too.) However, VWR-17801 and the left over ">"s in the Portuguese localization show how easily inconsistencies can creep in. Having the indicators handled automagically diminishes the risk of that happening again in the future. Impact for translators One less thing to worry about, once this is fixed. Impact for developers While generation of one of the context menus remains in a CPP file (instead of XUI like the others), that part of the code at least doesn't have to bother anymore with adding the indicator to each entry individually. Impact for UI designers / implementers With the fix, it should now be easy to change the submenu indicator for either all menus (main menu and context menus) or either type individually. Changing it for single selected entries would now be more difficult, but I don't see any cases where this might be needed. Summary Massive code duplication is usually bad. (Duh!) Cheers, Boroondas PS: Well, as this is a request for review and testing, I should probably write something about that, too. Because I had to touch XUI files of all localizations except Dutch, it'd be good if people could test the context menus with the Viewer set to different languages. More detailed test plan in this jira comment . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/1cc0a9a8/attachment-0001.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 2 21:42:27 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:42:27 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 09/02/2010 Message-ID: Date: Thu Sep 2, 2010 Also available here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive *=== General Notes ===* * Don't forget to grab tasks from the Sprint Backlog and update your time remaining on that task each day! * Anya OOO thu-fri * Merge Monkey of the Day: Merov *===Team Status===* *====Aimee====* *PAST* * Test minimap panning and avatar inspectors * Merge and test teleporting multiple friends (VWR-22454) *FUTURE* * Check my issues have test plans attached. * "As a developer, I would like to clean up the way the voice code shuts down, so that it doesn't leak memory and satifies my OCD". * Find out what's happening with design review of VWR-21253 "As a user I would like to see who has permission to 'See my online status', 'See me on the map', or 'Edit, delete or take my objects'" (Seems to be some scope creep or overlap with display names stuff). *IMPEDIMENTS* * Need a yes/no to integrate from design review of VWR-21253 *====Tofu====* *PAST* * Serviced 9 integration requests * Landed jonathan yap's VWR-17801, iterated on it a bit * Reviewed teleport invite patch *FUTURE* * OOO * Probably more integrations * Investigate, finish or defer VWR-21717 'Classfied Ads - "Adult" cannot be chosen' *IMPEDIMENTS* * none. *====Oz====* *PAST* * Wiki updates * Organized posting of Development builds on secondlife.com *FUTURE* * Post first Development build on secondlife.com ? * More wiki updates * Send code review system proposal to systems team * Prep discussion of upcoming common code split *IMPEDIMENTS* * none not planned for *====Merov====* *PAST* * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: Code architecture study * VWR-22759 : Chat Translator: merged in merov_linden/viewer-development-features, asked Esbee for Design Review * Lots of JIRA gardening... *FUTURE* * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: perf data instrumentation, create forked repos for this *IMPEDIMENTS* * Kakadu license upgrade *====Q====* OOO *====Esbee====* *PAST* * Office Hours * Started Snowstorm Blog Post * Backlog grooming started * Prep for Dusan Writer Interview *FUTURE* *OOO (half day medical) * Interview with Dusan Writer * Meeting to discuss Jira triage * Jira triage *IMPEDIMENTS* * None *====Paul====* *PAST* * TASK vwr-21585 (Make all tabs support horizontal resizing) ** In progress. Estimate ~ 24 hours. *FUTURE* * TASK vwr-21585 (Make all tabs support horizontal resizing) *IMPEDIMENTS* *none *====Andrew====* *PAS*T * Task VWR-20702 (Bottom bar button reordering) ** In working on subtask VWR-20706 (Make sure auto-hiding and shrinking buttons still work) found a problem related to D&D implementation and to do with the Speak button. Will consult Mike tomorrow, everything else is done. Estimate - 3 hrs. * Sub-task VWR-22690(Saving/restoring button order). ** Investigated. Estimate- 5 hours. *FUTURE* * Finish and send for review VWR-20705 (Drag & Drop implementation) and VWR-20706 (Make sure auto-hiding and shrinking buttons still work). * VWR-22690 (Saving/restoring button order). *IMPEDIMENTS* * none *====Vadim====* *PAST* * Task VWR-21127 (Implement saving size and position of detached tabs): ** 70% complete. Estimate: 4 hours. * OOO sick part of the morning. *FUTURE* * Finish VWR-21127, approve integrating the whole feature (although most was done today by Tofu) *IMPEDIMENTS* * none *====Sergey====* *PAST* * Task (VWR-21060) Fix broken ability to open a side tray tab via shortcut, menu item or button outside of the Side Tray. ** Fixed. * Task (VWR-20696) Write code to allow for undocking/redocking of a sidebar tab ** Fixed calling onOpen() for undocked tabs. ** Fix dock/undock buttons changing depending on tab state. *FUTURE* * Bug (VWR-22166) 'Item Profile' panel isn't udated if change name of that item from 'Object contents' floater ** Estimated: 6 hours. * Bug (VWR-22157) My Landmarks: 'Cut' item should be greyed out in folder's context menu ** Estimated: 2 hours. *IMPEDIMENTS* * Do we need a new art for "Undock" button in Side Tray. For now I used the existing floater "Tear Off" button. * Task (VWR-20697) Write code to allow for redocking of a sidebar tab **Can we close it as "Misfiled" and leave only VWR-20696 with changed summary? *====Anya====* *PAST* * organizational / administrative *FUTURE* * OOO Thu - Fri *IMPEDIMENTS* * none -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100902/9e4da112/attachment.htm From morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com Thu Sep 2 22:13:53 2010 From: morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com (Morgaine) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 06:13:53 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's an excellent suggestion, Talia. +1 We actually started the process of discussing possible architectures for modular viewer extension through plugins and client-side scripting back in February and March. A few non-technical hurdles blocked our progress at that time, but I believe that the situation is changed radically now as a result of the new open development process of Snowstorm. I look forward very much to this design process starting afresh. I believe that it holds the key to viewers becoming more user-friendly, more flexible, more able to satisfy the highly varied requirements of their users, faster and more robust on multicore systems, and far more maintainable than the current mostly monolithic architecture. You may also wish to cast an eye on the final paragraph of this Jira that I posted earlier today -- http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22781 . By coincidence it also called for code modularity through viewer extensions as a means of controlling runaway UI complexity, which is an issue that we cannot avoid as our virtual worlds become ever more complex. It ties in well with your suggestion here. This is something that we just have to do, and the longer it's deferred the more time is being wasted in a suboptimal direction. Monolithic viewers really don't have much of a future, at least not a happy one. Morgaine. ===================================== On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Talia Tokugawa < talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com> wrote: > Hi, first post on this mailing list. > So I wake up this morning and I Login to SL using Snowstorm and I am > instantly annoyed it's not Emerald. I got to thinking on the subject of > viewers, secondlife and the general usage thereof. There are many different > user types, new residents, power users, lindens, developers etc. Yet there > are only a limited number of Viewers and TPV that you can pick from. X > number of holes for a potentially unlimited number of blocks to fit into. > > I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. Why not > make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. Allow any > user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and requirements. > > If you look at the lists of features that are currently available to people > and then try fit them to the different user stories how do you justify that? > > So for example. We take a look at the "New Resident" profile. They arrive > in Second Life. No community gateway and only wiki/kb to assist them. They > have this big program to learn.. How much of this could be stripped out to > plugins to reduce the UI cliff that they have just ran into. Very simple > starting example here. LSL editor. How many users (not just new users) > actually code? This "program" could be taken out and made into a plugin. > Likewise with the edit windows. New users could quite happily do without > having a full edit window. Maybe just reduce that to a "fitting" window for > attachments. Have a basic window with Pos/Rot/Scale. Both these examples are > something that different user stories would need, but just confuse things > for the new user, then as the user becomes familiar with what they want they > can get plugins to enable them to take on different roles. Say then want to > start making attachments. They would goto the plugin repository and get the > "advanced edit" window. Later down the line they decide they want to get > themselves some land and do some landscaping they'd go back to the > repository and get themselves the "land tools" plugin. > > This is just a very simple case study for how this system would appear to > the users. I guess it wouldn't be to hard to supply clients with plugin > bundles. Different user profiles could get the basic stripped down vanilla > client with a specific set of plugins tailored to their requirements, going > right through to a full official client with all the plugins to have a > client that is as capable as the current clients. > > I think given this structure, third party plugins over third party viewers > would become far more common place. If you look through the feature requests > list for snowstorm. Half the items on that list are features that come > direct from Emerald. > > In terms of keeping an eye on things it would be a lot easier for LL too. > If a system were set in place where the source of the plugins were uploaded > to LL for addition into the plugin repository the Labs could check through > the code before compiling and getting the LL seal of approval. As opposed to > the current system of TPV where a new viewer is compiled by one person from > a team and the whole system relies on trust of that one person (ref. > emerald). > > Anyways, my two pence on the whole viewer thing ;) > Talia > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/c03dd9dc/attachment.htm From bo.rossen at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 02:46:28 2010 From: bo.rossen at gmail.com (Bo Rossen) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:46:28 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Toggle menu item Message-ID: Dear List, Completely new to SecondLife viewer development, so please be gentle ;) In the light of all the Emerald issues, I have decided that the only viewer I am going to trust, is one that I build myself. For this I have created a complete Lenny chroot on my linux box, installed all the neccesary libraries, packages and Snowglobe 2009 sources. I want to start out simple by just creating personal patches that apply directly to the mainstream Snowglobe sources. As this is a personal and private viewer, I won't be releasing it to the public (but I might do so for the patches). My first objective is to add a menu item to the bottom of the tools menu, allowing to show the debug menu. The reason for this, is that the default shortcut Control-Alt-Shift-D is already taken by my OS (and thus kinda annoying). I have patched indra/newview/skins/default/xui/en-us/menu_viewer.xml to have the menu item become visible. I have also patched indra/newview/llviewermenu.cpp to add functionality to the button. All seems well. When I click the menu item it indeed "toggles" the visibility of the debug menu *YAY* However, in the Emerald viewer (which also contains this very same menu item but in a different place) the menu item is ALSO toggled. Eg the menu item has a nice 'X' in front of it when it's "on". My simple question: How do I duplicate this behavior? Thanks in advance for any assistance, -- Bo Rossen bo dot rossen at gmail dot com -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/0ddedfe6/attachment-0001.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 3 03:01:53 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 06:01:53 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] =?utf-8?q?Request_for_review/testing=3A_VWR-2058?= =?utf-8?q?3_submenu_indicators_=28=E2=96=B6_a=2Ek=2Ea=2E_U+25B6=29_should?= =?utf-8?q?n=27t_be_hard-coded_in_context_menu_sub_menu_names?= In-Reply-To: <4C804428.5030404@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C804428.5030404@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <4C80C791.2020008@lindenlab.com> Esbee - this looks like a good thing for us to pull in under the general cleanups category. Boroondas - please recheck the Dutch files - I pulled in those fixes 3 days ago, and you should have them in your repo now. On 2010-09-02 20:41, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > As far as I know, VWR-20583 > is on neither Product > Backlog nor Sprint List, yet, but Tofu asked > > me about this on jira and already imported a fix for a /symptom/ > > of which this issue here is IMHO the /cause/. > > My fix for this underlying issue can be found at > http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/viewer-development-vwr-20583 > > > How my fix works > > Up to now, all menu entries except those context menus automatically > generated the submenu indicator when they had sub-entries. Context > menu entries didn't to that, so the "?" had to be explicitly encoded > in the labels in the XUI files (for all submenu labels in all > languages). I guess this was necessary in Viewer 1.x, because the > generic way of adding a ">" (which was the indicator back then), > wouldn't work for pie menus. > > Now though, that context menus are regular rectangular menus, their > entries can be handled just like other menu entries > > (regarding the "?", at least) and that's what the changeset does > . > The big bulky rest of the changeset just removes all the hard-coded > "?" (and some left over ">" (>) for the Portuguese localization) > from the context menus of all supported languages (except nl, which > doesn't seem to have localized context menus for some reason), so they > won't display twice now. > > > Impact for users > > As long as all hard-coded strings are in-sync, users wouldn't notice > VWR-20583 nor its fix, except for whether the triangles aren't > right-aligned in context menus (as they are in the main menus, so the > fix makes this consistent, too.) However, VWR-17801 and the left over > ">"s in the Portuguese localization > > show how easily inconsistencies can creep in. Having the indicators > handled automagically diminishes the risk of that happening again in > the future. > > > Impact for translators > > One less thing to worry about, once this is fixed. > > > Impact for developers > > While generation of one of the context menus remains > > in a CPP file (instead of XUI like the others), that part of the code > at least doesn't have to bother anymore with adding the indicator to > each entry individually. > > > Impact for UI designers / implementers > > With the fix, it should now be easy to change the submenu indicator > for either all menus (main menu and context menus) or either type > individually. Changing it for single selected entries would now be > more difficult, but I don't see any cases where this might be needed. > > > Summary > > Massive code duplication is usually bad. (Duh!) > > Cheers, > Boroondas > > PS: Well, as this is a request for review and testing, I should > probably write something about that, too. Because I had to touch XUI > files of all localizations except Dutch, it'd be good if people could > test the context menus with the Viewer set to different languages. > More detailed test plan in this jira comment > . > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/35671c29/attachment.htm From bo.rossen at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 03:04:58 2010 From: bo.rossen at gmail.com (Bo Rossen) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:04:58 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Toggle menu item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Solved. I need to read better and notice the difference between menu_item_call and menu_item_check *sighs* -- Bo Rossen bo dot rossen at gmail dot com -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/c80346ae/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Fri Sep 3 04:27:55 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 13:27:55 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] =?utf-8?q?Dutch_localization_=28was=3A__Request_?= =?utf-8?q?for_review/testing=3A_VWR-20583_submenu_indicators_=28=E2=96=B6?= =?utf-8?q?_a=2Ek=2Ea=2E_U+25B6=29_shouldn=27t_be_hard-coded_in_context_me?= =?utf-8?q?nu_sub_menu_names=29?= In-Reply-To: <4C80C791.2020008@lindenlab.com> References: <4C804428.5030404@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <4C80C791.2020008@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C80DBBB.9020305@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 09/03/2010 12:01 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > Boroondas - please recheck the Dutch files - I pulled in those fixes 3 > days ago, and you should have them in your repo now. > OK, looks like (some?) context menu entry labels are localized for Dutch, but the localization has different file names and file structures than other localizations: For example in indra/newview/skins/default/xui/*en*/menu_*wearable_list_item*.xml line 43f there's <*context*_menu label="Attach to HUD" layout="topleft" *name="wearable_attach_to_hud"* /> while the corresponding Dutch entry is probably indra/newview/skins/default/xui/*nl*/menu_*inventory*.xml line 77 Note the different file names, different element types and different name attribute values. Especially regarding the latter, I have to wonder how the Dutch string even gets found at all. (Apparently it /gets/ found. Or maybe I'm just reading the XUI wrong.) However, looks like the labels in the Dutch localization were already missing the "?"s, ">"s or ">"s, so don't have to be adapted for my fix. Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/afdd7e1e/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Fri Sep 3 04:32:43 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 13:32:43 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] =?utf-8?q?Request_for_review/testing=3A_VWR-2058?= =?utf-8?q?3_submenu_indicators_=28=E2=96=B6_a=2Ek=2Ea=2E_U+25B6=29_should?= =?utf-8?q?n=27t_be_hard-coded_in_context_menu_sub_menu_names?= In-Reply-To: <4C804428.5030404@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C804428.5030404@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <4C80DCDB.9010408@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 09/03/2010 02:41 AM, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > My fix for this underlying issue can be found at > http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/viewer-development-vwr-20583 If you already cloned or pulled that, please re-pull, I've found some more ">" to remove. Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/47090fba/attachment.htm From lenglish5 at cox.net Fri Sep 3 06:14:00 2010 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 06:14:00 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: > [...] > I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. > Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. > Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and > requirements. > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the resulting re-architectured viewer. Lawson From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 3 06:32:54 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 09:32:54 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> Message-ID: <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... From missannotoole at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 07:11:13 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 07:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? ________________________________ From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/01f59c88/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 08:17:14 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:17:14 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What id like to see is the viewer be distributed as a library. And we can init our own project with can create the window etc and setup the ui.. Since you went lgpl you should have a compile option for a lib with a established interface. Otherwise lgpl is kinda blargh. On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Ann Otoole wrote: > Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) > *To:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > *Sent:* Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture > > On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: > >> [...] > >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. > >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. > >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and > >> requirements. > >> > > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > > resulting re-architectured viewer. > > Try us... > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/f0886cd8/attachment.htm From storm.thunders at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 08:21:00 2010 From: storm.thunders at gmail.com (Storm Thunders) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 11:21:00 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This. On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Ann Otoole wrote: > Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/df84f520/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 3 08:27:56 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 11:27:56 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C8113FC.3020105@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-03 11:17, Brandon Husbands wrote: > What id like to see is the viewer be distributed as a library. And we > can init our own project with can create the window etc and setup the > ui.. Since you went lgpl you should have a compile option for a lib > with a established interface. Otherwise lgpl is kinda blargh. Anyone who wants to work on making build rules to construct such a library is welcome to do so. There is significant room for interpretation when using the LGPL. At Linden Lab, our intent is to enable the development of third party viewers and the improvement of our own viewer through mutual sharing of the requisite common technology. Our interpretation is that modifying the build procedures provided in the source code to produce a library containing whatever subset of the licensed code the developer desires is a minor programming exercise. The result of linking that library (which may be either a static library or a shared one, and either is allowed) with whatever other code the developer requires to build a viewer is again a minor problem, and the results are essentially indistinguishable from one in which the developer just modified the build procedures in place to produce an executable application. Essentially, the details of the linkage procedures used are a matter of packaging and have no end user effect. In practical programming terms a library is just a convenient package - it's like requiring that a grocery store sell a product only if it is first placed into a shopping cart while inside the store. Essentially a library is just that - a shopping cart full of individually compiled modules, so there's no real difference between that and just using the modules separately (one could build a library containing exactly one module, or build an application that had only one module and one library). It is our intent that developers be able to use the components that we have licensed under the LGPL to produce viewer applications, regardless of the linkage procedures used, so long as they make available any changes to those components as specified in the license. From nickyd_sl at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 09:05:32 2010 From: nickyd_sl at yahoo.com (Nicky Fullton) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 09:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder Message-ID: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hello, >> i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for JPG2000 >> images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have tested >> last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must do a lot >> of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around never >> tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? >I'm not aware of anyone publishing results for such a test, but if you >have the time it would be interesting reading. You might be interested in: http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/027bf44c5582 I made a rather quick hack to try Jasper instead of OpenJpeg to decode images. The patch has some very rough edges. In fact is the decoding into the LLImageRaw buffer not correct. I did not fix this (yet) because the results so far are not very promising. Jasper can only decode around 20% of the jpeg, for the other 80% it will create an error and then my code falls back to OpenJpeg. This fallback makes the whole decoding rather slow, so it is hard to say if Jasper would really be any faster. Right now I am not sure if it would be reasonable to invest more time looking at Jasper. First the code would need to fixed upstream, so all images can be properly decoded. As this project looks rather dead, one with JPEG2000 knowledge might have to step up for this. On another note, you might like to try: http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/e4eff3e2af39 This will at least skip the step of calling OpenJpeg in LImageJ2COJ::getMetadata (if possible, it will do sanity checks first). >Some things to keep in >mind. OpenJpeg has patches floating around on its ML against 1.3 that >reports have claimed up to 40% speed increase in places due to >unrolling the inner loops so finding them and testing would be good. I did not find any of those, but then again maybe I did not look hard enough. There is certainly some potential in OpenJpeg. There are some loops in t1_dec_sigpass and t1_dec_refpass that can be easily rewritten. But there is some pretty tricky stuff in t1_dec_clnpass that would need some cleaning and mqc decoder (mqc_decode) burns a lot of time. But that one is especially hairy as it has side effects on its input parameter. I am not sure if anyone without enough deep knowledge of OpenJpeg (and the dedication to recode a good part of it) would be able to improve much of it. Cheers, Nicky From gcanaday at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:40:05 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 12:40:05 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <1283532005.1942.9.camel@glen-desktop> This is the project I've started 50 times and never got further than "YES! It compiles on all platforms! ...just.. need... everything. else." Since it's LGPL now, we can make a modular plugin-based viewer that uses LL's code as a starting point, and even incorporate BSD-licensed bits... just convert all of the relevant sections of code into loadable libs with a built-in that manages all of the plugin data centrally. That way you can load and unload things like UIs and renderers on the fly without ever logging out, and you can also include cool new things like "local data" on your own computer, thus, if desired, having an integrated desktop<->inworld presence. Like I said... 50 times, never got further than the first sentence. Too much work and not enough single geek. I had even named it "GROND" after Sauron's battering ram. Had trouble turning it into an acronym, though... "Generic Reusable Omnipotent Networking Disaster," anyone? --GC On Fri, 2010-09-03 at 09:32 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: > >> [...] > >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. > >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. > >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and > >> requirements. > >> > > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > > resulting re-architectured viewer. > > Try us... > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From sythos at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:46:55 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 18:46:55 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <1283532005.1942.9.camel@glen-desktop> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <1283532005.1942.9.camel@glen-desktop> Message-ID: <20100903184655.8450fc8c.sythos@gmail.com> On Fri, 03 Sep 2010 12:40:05 -0400 Glen Canaday wrote: > > Like I said... 50 times, never got further than the first sentence. > Too much work and not enough single geek. I had even named it "GROND" > after Sauron's battering ram. this is why now all code is public and following few step you can contribute all code you want... a optional switchable theme/UI/XUI can be merged giving to all residents the freedom to choose the aspect on monitor (viewer 1.x style too). Is hard take LL base code, patch it, merge a LL-next-version to fit newfeatures and patch again everything, i think this way to work is great why all can fit a features (a single click in setup panel enable/disable it maybe...) without care to merge everytime a new features will be implemented by LL From tofu at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 3 10:29:04 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 18:29:04 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <20100825230011.e375068c.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100825230011.e375068c.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C813060.8000409@lindenlab.com> Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for JPG2000 > images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have tested > last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must do a lot > of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around never > tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? > > ref: > http://www.ece.uvic.ca/~mdadams/jasper/ Chiming in late - when we were looking for a happy-licensed KDU alternative (mid-late 2007) we tested both OpenJPEG and JasPer against a typical SL data set. OpenJPEG was (a bit) faster and better-maintained, so we went with that. Lots of things (dominant system architectures, our usage patterns, project churn) have changed since then - re-evaluation is a great idea. Although the library's speed is only one of many axes. :) Cheers, -tofu From nickyperian at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 13:09:36 2010 From: nickyperian at yahoo.com (Nicky Perian) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Proposed user story for inclusion in product backlog--- request list comments and a yea or nay. Message-ID: <123290.95684.qm@web43501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> As a developer, using VC++ 2008 Express Edition or Visual Studio 2008, I want correct boost and llqtwebkit library versions downloaded from Linden Lab. This would streamline the build process. VWR-20739 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/e562d4fa/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 3 14:26:17 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 14:26:17 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 09/03/2010 Message-ID: Date: Fri Sep 3, 2010 Also available here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive *=== General Notes ===* * Don't forget to grab tasks from the Sprint Backlog and update your time remaining on that task each day! * Merge Monkey of the Day: Merov *===Team Status===* *====Aimee====* *PAST* * * "As a developer, I would like to clean up the way the voice code shuts down, so that it doesn't leak memory and satifies my OCD". * Work out what's gone wrong with the hg convert process on james/viewer-identity-evolution * Hairy merge of james/viewer-identity-evolution with dessie/viewer-public to fix it. FUTURE * Continue hairy merge of james/viewer-identity-evolution with dessie/viewer-public and hg convert. IMPEDIMENTS * Will need a yes/no to integrate from design review of VWR-21253 before I can move onto that task, other stuff I can do for now though. ====Tofu==== PAST ====Oz==== PAST * Sent code review system request to systems team * Prepped discussion of upcoming common code split FUTURE * Post first Development build on secondlife.com ? IMPEDIMENTS * none not planned for ====Merov==== PAST * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: ** Perf data instrumentation: created baseline using LLFastTimer but not enough info in there. Need to improve that system or go for a quick and dirty hack... ** Created forked repos for indra-private and discussed with Alain. Newest Alain's code though doesn't build :( ** Created forked merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761 for this feature ('cause I'm gonna touch lots of things...) * Merge monkey: nothing to do 'cause Tofu stole all my toys... * Snowglobe OH FUTURE * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: Modify LLFastTimer to allow "datasize" in and out tracking IMPEDIMENTS * Kakadu license upgrade ====Q==== OOO ====Esbee==== PAST * Out half day yesterday * Great interview with Dusan Writer * Met about Jira triage * Started documenting how Jira VWR triage will work FUTURE * Follow up on VWR-21253 * Respond to Resident Viewer ideas * Groom backlog * Finish blog post about Product and Snowstorm * Edit Q's blog post IMPEDIMENTS * None ====Paul==== PAST * TASK VWR-21585 (Make all tabs support horizontal resizing) **In progress. Estimate ~ 20 hours. FUTURE * TASK VWR-21585 (Make all tabs support horizontal resizing) IMPEDIMENTS *none ====Andrew==== PAST * Task VWR-20702 (Bottom bar button reordering): ** Sub-task VWR-20705 (Drag&Drop implementation): Done, will commit shortly. ** Sub-task VWR-20706 (Make sure auoto-hiding and shrining buttons still work): Done, will commit shortly. ** Sub-task VWR-22690(Saving/restoring button order). Investigated. Estimate: 5 hours. FUTURE * Finish and send for review VWR-20705 (Drag & Drop implementation) and VWR-20706 (Make sure auto-hiding and shrinking buttons still work). * VWR-22690 (Saving/restoring button order). IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Vadim==== PAST * Task VWR-21127 (Implement saving size and position of detached tabs): Done. FUTURE * Help Paul with VWR-21585, approve integrating the whole feature (although most was done today by Tofu) IMPEDIMENTS *none ====Sergey==== PAST * Task (VWR-21060) Fix broken ability to open a side tray tab via shortcut, menu item or button outside of the Side Tray. ** Completed. But later found more bugs, fixing them now. * Task (VWR-20696) Write code to allow for undocking/redocking of a sidebar tab: Done. * Task (VWR-20970) Implement undocking tabs by dragging: Done. FUTURE * Task (VWR-21060) Fix broken ability to open a side tray tab via shortcut, menu item or button outside of the Side Tray. ** Fix recently discovered bugs. IMPEDIMENTS * Do we need a new art for "Undock" button in Side Tray. For now I used the existing floater "Tear Off" button. * Task (VWR-20697) Write code to allow for redocking of a sidebar tab ====Anya==== OOO * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/9f31d3fe/attachment-0001.htm From q at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 3 15:06:18 2010 From: q at lindenlab.com (Kent Quirk (Q Linden)) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 18:06:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] code review request Message-ID: <2FC4EEB7-2DB1-44DA-94F7-3B7FB5776E29@lindenlab.com> Hi, all, getting back into it a little during recovery. Can I please get a review and perhaps pull for: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20945 Code is here: Fix is in https://bitbucket.org/kentquirk/vwr-20945 changeset 123b6d316c16 This issue is important to our release team. Thanks! Q -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/9958d513/attachment.htm From websuz at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 15:24:12 2010 From: websuz at gmail.com (Charlene Trudeau) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 15:24:12 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] System Folders to Top In-Reply-To: <201009012249.34447.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <4C7EB202.3050206@gmail.com> <201009012249.34447.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C81758C.4040006@gmail.com> "As a user, I would like to be able to sort the inventory folders by name and without setting the system folders to top. I would prefer to do this on the fly as the usefulness of having the system folders at the top or mixed in changes during my workflow. I often need 'my' folders to be preeminent over the system folders so that I can find things I have created or need for my work more readily than if I have to scroll below the system folders." *********** Unfortuantely, in Second Life 2.1.2 (208921) Sep 2 2010 03:43:01 (Second Life Development), this debug setting (Inventory.SystemFoldersToTop) seems to have NO effect whatsoever, nor did it persist across logins to see if relog would resort things. This appears to be true in Second Life 2.1.1 (208043) Aug 11 2010 16:07:37 (Second Life Release) also, because I can't sort the system folders back to the top using the debug menu but apparently it held settings from prior releases, which are now fixed/permanent without the debug setting to change things. In fact, 'restore to default' restores it to 'FALSE'. As if its now hard coded depending on how the setting was prior to some lost upgrade point. Please restore this functionality. The only reason I have not placed a JIRA sooner is that the loss of functionality was 'hidden' by hard coding my former choice as the default through the upgrade cycle. Should I be opening JIRA issues on things like this at this time? Char On 9/1/2010 13:49, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Wednesday 01 September 2010 schrieb Suz Dollar: >> As a user, I would like to be able to turn off the forced system >> folders to top. This used to be an obvious and easy thing to >> change back and forth on the fly and now seems to have been >> removed and relegated to the debug menu. > there's a debug menu item for that??? where which what how???? > > > > bye, > LC > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 3 16:13:03 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 19:13:03 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display Names open source Message-ID: <4C8180FF.6070400@lindenlab.com> We had some technical difficulties with getting it properly prepared for publication (resolved with the able help of Aimee), but the source for the Display Names branch is now available at: http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-identity It is worthy of notice that this is the first Project release under our new development methodology - source code and a running viewer available from an internal Linden Lab team other than Snowstorm. From gcanaday at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 19:54:17 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 22:54:17 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <20100903184655.8450fc8c.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <1283532005.1942.9.camel@glen-desktop> <20100903184655.8450fc8c.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1283568857.2219.29.camel@glen-desktop> > > this is why now all code is public and following few step you can > contribute all code you want... a optional switchable theme/UI/XUI can > be merged giving to all residents the freedom to choose the aspect on > monitor (viewer 1.x style too). > > Is hard take LL base code, patch it, merge a LL-next-version to fit > newfeatures and patch again everything, i think this way to work is > great why all can fit a features (a single click in setup panel > enable/disable it maybe...) without care to merge everytime a new > features will be implemented by LL Like I said... lots of ideas, but not enough geek nor enough singlehood to commit as much time to this kind of thing as it would need. It's like looking through the window at some Shiny Animal you might be able to buy and dearly want, but you could never afford to feed and you know it. It makes me sad, heh. The base idea for the GROND project was only a plugin manager, memory/data manager, and these basic plugins: 1. A UI plugin. Allows for hot-loading a UI and handles all human I/O that isn't related to rendering or audio. 2. A viewer plugin. Allows for hot-loading renderers since all scene information is maintained by the data manager and not the renderer library. 3. A protocol plugin. Would allow for protocol upgrades to occur on a per-grid basis.Each grid could provide a plugin or just a protocol spec to handle their own grid's communications needs, so that things like SL 2's incompatibility with OpenSim doesn't have to happen again. That was a HUGE pain trying to get used to 2.0 on my own grid... it just didn't work. Some extras I came up with were: 1. An audio plugin. This plugin could handle all audio input and output to and from the viewer. This would permit the use of voice (VOIP) technology as well as play inworld sounds and streaming. Doesn't have to only be audio, could be a "direct gstreamer" plugin. If it ate too much bandwidth, it could be unloaded by the user or just self-throttled. 2. A client-side physics plugin. This plugin would handle all soft-body physics to be displayed by the viewer. Note that all rigid-body physics must be simulated on the server, with the collisions only reported to the client. If it ate too much processor, it could be disabled. 3. A local filesystem plugin. This one's cool. Upload / download from within an inworld object or from your own inventory - which could display your own local filesystem as well as your inworld inventory. This kind of thing could easily evolve into the first viable 3D desktop that could also integrate emerging web technologies and do it completely transparently. But like has been said, it's HUGE. There's no WAY I could devote enough time to it. It's the next Mosaic, and LL's already written the first versions of all of the most important parts. --GC From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Sat Sep 4 05:07:24 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:07:24 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] [META] Snowstorm Blog Message-ID: <4C82367C.2070500@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Just a heads-up that Project Snowstorm has a blog now: http://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/snowstorm If you have comments that aren't related to the posts there, please remember that we also have a forum: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/forums/open-source ... and, of course, this and other mailing lists. Cheers, Boroondas From talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com Sat Sep 4 05:28:54 2010 From: talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com (Talia Tokugawa) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 13:28:54 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <1283568857.2219.29.camel@glen-desktop> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <1283532005.1942.9.camel@glen-desktop> <20100903184655.8450fc8c.sythos@gmail.com> <1283568857.2219.29.camel@glen-desktop> Message-ID: Well this is taking things quite a bit further than I envisioned for this. What Glen is suggesting here seems more like having stuff like java and flash installed for a browser. Where I was going with this was mainly just with the UI. The UI system code be further cut into pieces which was where I was going with this. So take the LSL editor for example. I'd say that the vast majority of people within Second Life don't ever code. So what is the point of having that in the "basic" client? strip that out totally and then offer a plugin/extention that would reintroduce an lsl editor to people if they so choose. You could additionally have say the emerald lsl-editor as an additional plugin featuring extra features (like the prebuilt extra scripts and cases). There are so many things in the basic client that I really doubt people actually bother to use. Windlight editors, (as I said before) a large amount of the standard edit window, estate management tools, etc etc This is just stripping out what we have in the current viewers. Really getting back to basics as 2.0 "tried" to do. I think once we have a firm foundation that is simple enough for a new user not to get scared then that is what is going to keep user retention up. Once there is that with the viewer and a plugin system that can cater to more experienced users the sky really is the limit. Plugin development is a much easier task for developers than viewer development. Currently there is a small number of developers that work towards new viewer. Either highly dedicated individuals (kirtsen) or groups (emerald or imprudence). As Morgaine said viewers are "monolithic". Plugins are so much less daunting for most developers to build. Old style viewers had this all out in the open, which was great for power users of Secondlife and probably the main reason behind emeralds prevalence in the viewer market. Everything a long term user wanted was right there. 2.0 tried to keep this functionality but at the same time bury enough of the more complicated stuff in menus so that new users were not scared, that doesn't really solve either issue. New users as they dig further keep finding new stuff and are probably left with a sense of "How much further do I keep digging before I get this program?". Older users are left with the annoyance of having to dig when they are used to everything being right there. (I know I am) So in this nice pluggable future, as a quick case study, lets take a look at communications. Currently we have Local, IM and Group. - Emerald explored the possibility of using IRC too (personally I never used it). There is another plugin. - In the snowstorm backlog there is mention of a skype intergration (personally I switch to skype for long conversations as it's more reliable than vivox). Another plugin! - Moving on from there.. XMPP? (again I use gchat to talk with people people can't always get inworld and lets face it im>email is not exactly the best option). - How about some microblogging? twitter panel maybe? - And if we are really going the social route.. what about full open social intergration ala facebook apps? (Talia is currently dancing at so n' so location [slurl]... Talia is planning to goto X event [Link]) Very quickly you start getting some very nice integration with many other services. So many plugins spring to mind when you start look at the SL viewer as a modular system. You could have say for example "plugin bundles" so say you could have a scripter bundle (lsl editor, script debuging tools eg, avatar scripts from emerald, script times in estate tools etc etc). Could have social networking bundles? say a twitter user bundle giving you a twitter stream in your communications area, Twit this tools on events windows, parcel details and personal profiles, maybe even snapshots to twitpic? How about google junkies bundle.. xmpp gchat for you comms, lots of nice "buzz this" (shudders) features dropped into the interface, "add to my calendar" buttons for events, snapshot to picassa. Long story short here. I don't believe it's possible to make a viewer that covers all users. Every user has different use criteria Trying to fit every peg into a round hole just ends up with broken pegs. T On 4 September 2010 03:54, Glen Canaday wrote: > > > > > this is why now all code is public and following few step you can > > contribute all code you want... a optional switchable theme/UI/XUI can > > be merged giving to all residents the freedom to choose the aspect on > > monitor (viewer 1.x style too). > > > > Is hard take LL base code, patch it, merge a LL-next-version to fit > > newfeatures and patch again everything, i think this way to work is > > great why all can fit a features (a single click in setup panel > > enable/disable it maybe...) without care to merge everytime a new > > features will be implemented by LL > > Like I said... lots of ideas, but not enough geek nor enough singlehood > to commit as much time to this kind of thing as it would need. It's like > looking through the window at some Shiny Animal you might be able to buy > and dearly want, but you could never afford to feed and you know it. It > makes me sad, heh. > > The base idea for the GROND project was only a plugin manager, > memory/data manager, and these basic plugins: > > 1. A UI plugin. Allows for hot-loading a UI and handles all human I/O > that isn't related to rendering or audio. > > 2. A viewer plugin. Allows for hot-loading renderers since all scene > information is maintained by the data manager and not the renderer > library. > > 3. A protocol plugin. Would allow for protocol upgrades to occur on a > per-grid basis.Each grid could provide a plugin or just a protocol spec > to handle their own grid's communications needs, so that things like SL > 2's incompatibility with OpenSim doesn't have to happen again. That was > a HUGE pain trying to get used to 2.0 on my own grid... it just didn't > work. > > Some extras I came up with were: > > 1. An audio plugin. This plugin could handle all audio input and output > to and from the viewer. This would permit the use of voice (VOIP) > technology as well as play inworld sounds and streaming. Doesn't have to > only be audio, could be a "direct gstreamer" plugin. If it ate too much > bandwidth, it could be unloaded by the user or just self-throttled. > > 2. A client-side physics plugin. This plugin would handle all soft-body > physics to be displayed by the viewer. Note that all rigid-body physics > must be simulated on the server, with the collisions only reported to > the client. If it ate too much processor, it could be disabled. > > 3. A local filesystem plugin. This one's cool. Upload / download from > within an inworld object or from your own inventory - which could > display your own local filesystem as well as your inworld inventory. > > This kind of thing could easily evolve into the first viable 3D desktop > that could also integrate emerging web technologies and do it completely > transparently. > > But like has been said, it's HUGE. There's no WAY I could devote enough > time to it. It's the next Mosaic, and LL's already written the first > versions of all of the most important parts. > > --GC > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/9bffc3f8/attachment-0001.htm From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 4 06:00:33 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (Brendan Wilson) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 09:00:33 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring it to VS2008(vc90) From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? _____ From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/36489301/attachment.htm From gcanaday at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 08:32:34 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 11:32:34 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <1283532005.1942.9.camel@glen-desktop> <20100903184655.8450fc8c.sythos@gmail.com> <1283568857.2219.29.camel@glen-desktop> Message-ID: <1283614354.2197.19.camel@glen-desktop> On Sat, 2010-09-04 at 13:28 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote: > Well this is taking things quite a bit further than I envisioned for > this. What Glen is suggesting here seems more like having stuff like > java and flash installed for a browser. Actually, nowhere near that! That's what people on the list seem to be thinking of. What I've been thinking of for months is far more radical. A browser can't change out its rendering engine or parser while still connected to the website. This could and that's the idea. What you're talking about seems much like how Maya was set up (at least in 7.0 when I last saw it), or at least the concept. You switched entire menu groups depending on the task (modeling, animating, etc.). You mean switching UI styles according to skill level. Understandable... is one of the things I was going for. --GC From talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com Sat Sep 4 09:39:15 2010 From: talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com (Talia Tokugawa) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 17:39:15 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <1283614354.2197.19.camel@glen-desktop> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <1283532005.1942.9.camel@glen-desktop> <20100903184655.8450fc8c.sythos@gmail.com> <1283568857.2219.29.camel@glen-desktop> <1283614354.2197.19.camel@glen-desktop> Message-ID: Okay so this plugin talk has got me thinking.. I tend to think visually and wasn't sure on if this mailing list dealt with images or not so I just blogged the idea instead. http://www.talia-tokugawa.co.uk/snowstorm-plugin-concepts-calendar/ I intend to write a series of ideas (thinking twitter plugin is next) And yes Glen.. Something like Maya, maybe not changing the entire interface dependant on what your working on, But the ability to bolt bits on so to speak and for the parts to integrate with each other. I guess more like plugins and scripts worked in Maya rather than the task dependant views. As you say with the renderer. It might be cool to have the main window display SL as we know it now but be able to get something like an advanced minimap in 2d that you could plugin as a replacement for the default graphics engine. Something to enable people with lesser machines to still be able to interact with the work. As the text based viewer have shown in the past it's perfectly feasible for people to interact with SL with minimal graphical fluff. Tal On 4 September 2010 16:32, Glen Canaday wrote: > On Sat, 2010-09-04 at 13:28 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote: > > Well this is taking things quite a bit further than I envisioned for > > this. What Glen is suggesting here seems more like having stuff like > > java and flash installed for a browser. > > Actually, nowhere near that! That's what people on the list seem to be > thinking of. What I've been thinking of for months is far more radical. > A browser can't change out its rendering engine or parser while still > connected to the website. This could and that's the idea. > > What you're talking about seems much like how Maya was set up (at least > in 7.0 when I last saw it), or at least the concept. You switched entire > menu groups depending on the task (modeling, animating, etc.). You mean > switching UI styles according to skill level. Understandable... is one > of the things I was going for. > > --GC > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/5524da25/attachment.htm From missannotoole at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 10:10:12 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 10:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> Message-ID: <609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current environment? ________________________________ From: Brendan Wilson To: OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring it to VS2008(vc90) From:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? ________________________________ From:Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/1584c3f3/attachment-0001.htm From nickyperian at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 10:14:14 2010 From: nickyperian at yahoo.com (Nicky Perian) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> <609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell. ________________________________ From: Ann Otoole To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current environment? ________________________________ From: Brendan Wilson To: OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring it to VS2008(vc90) From:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? ________________________________ From:Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/2b0d3b4f/attachment.htm From gcanaday at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 11:53:18 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:53:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <1283532005.1942.9.camel@glen-desktop> <20100903184655.8450fc8c.sythos@gmail.com> <1283568857.2219.29.camel@glen-desktop> <1283614354.2197.19.camel@glen-desktop> Message-ID: <1283626398.7221.5.camel@glen-desktop> On Sat, 2010-09-04 at 17:39 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote: > Okay so this plugin talk has got me thinking.. I tend to think > visually and wasn't sure on if this mailing list dealt with images or > not so I just blogged the idea instead. > http://www.talia-tokugawa.co.uk/snowstorm-plugin-concepts-calendar/ > I intend to write a series of ideas (thinking twitter plugin is next) > > > And yes Glen.. Something like Maya, maybe not changing the entire > interface dependant on what your working on, But the ability to bolt > bits on so to speak and for the parts to integrate with each other. I > guess more like plugins and scripts worked in Maya rather than the > task dependant views. > As you say with the renderer. It might be cool to have the main window > display SL as we know it now but be able to get something like an > advanced minimap in 2d that you could plugin as a replacement for the > default graphics engine. Something to enable people with lesser > machines to still be able to interact with the work. As the text based > viewer have shown in the past it's perfectly feasible for people to > interact with SL with minimal graphical fluff. > Tal lol... ASCII-art renderer plugin, anyone? ;P http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/ http://www.jfedor.org/aaquake2/ http://n00n.free.fr/aatv/ These SO make my day. Oh hey - this also solves the alpha z sorting problems too, doesn't it? --GC From cg at lindenlab.com Sat Sep 4 12:15:08 2010 From: cg at lindenlab.com (CG Linden) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 12:15:08 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display Names open source In-Reply-To: <4C8180FF.6070400@lindenlab.com> References: <4C8180FF.6070400@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: And the latest builds are available via this permalink: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/viewer-identity/latest.html On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > We had some technical difficulties with getting it properly prepared > for publication (resolved with the able help of Aimee), but the source > for the Display Names branch is now available at: > > http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-identity > > It is worthy of notice that this is the first Project release under our > new development methodology - source code and a running viewer available > from an internal Linden Lab team other than Snowstorm. > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/4cad8cea/attachment.htm From missannotoole at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 12:19:09 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 12:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> <609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> you mean like the obsolete libraries that show up with tp SL viewers? Like the one that dumps a bunch of garbage in the root and then does not uninstall them? And that screws up the system forcing you to have to redu windows updates to overwrite the obsolete libs from 2005? ________________________________ From: Nicky Perian To: Ann Otoole ; Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 1:14:14 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell. ________________________________ From: Ann Otoole To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current environment? ________________________________ From: Brendan Wilson To: OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring it to VS2008(vc90) From:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? ________________________________ From:Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/dd01e8ac/attachment.htm From djshag at hotmail.com Sat Sep 4 12:23:59 2010 From: djshag at hotmail.com (Patnad Babii) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 15:23:59 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com><704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net><609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Switch to C# and everything become easier to deploy.... and use TFS for QA and saving sources. From: Ann Otoole Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 3:19 PM To: Nicky Perian ; Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture you mean like the obsolete libraries that show up with tp SL viewers? Like the one that dumps a bunch of garbage in the root and then does not uninstall them? And that screws up the system forcing you to have to redu windows updates to overwrite the obsolete libs from 2005? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nicky Perian To: Ann Otoole ; Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 1:14:14 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ann Otoole To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current environment? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brendan Wilson To: OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring it to VS2008(vc90) From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 02:34:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/63d236a8/attachment-0001.htm From hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 4 12:24:53 2010 From: hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk (Hitomi Tiponi) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 19:24:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <182483.25984.qm@web23907.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Could I point out that I doubt no-one cares about this except the Lindens - so why has this change been RAISED TO CRITICAL?. I run dev, beta, current, and old versions using different icons and rarely get confused - just why is it so important (nay critical) to have a different coloured menu-bars? Please tell me - is it really more critical than a lot of user-requested changes? Message: 1 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 18:06:18 -0400 From: "Kent Quirk (Q Linden)" Subject: [opensource-dev] code review request To: opensource-dev Message-ID: <2FC4EEB7-2DB1-44DA-94F7-3B7FB5776E29 at lindenlab.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, all, getting back into it a little during recovery. Can I please get a review and perhaps pull for: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-20945 Code is here: Fix is in https://bitbucket.org/kentquirk/vwr-20945 changeset 123b6d316c16 This issue is important to our release team. Thanks! Q -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100903/9958d513/attachment-0001.htm **************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/2219dd8e/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 12:59:16 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:59:16 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com><704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net><609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2010-09-04, at 14:23, Patnad Babii wrote: > Switch to C# and everything become easier to deploy.... and use TFS for QA and saving sources. If you don't mind a 2-5x performance hit on Windows and an elimination of the Linux and Mac clients. From djshag at hotmail.com Sat Sep 4 13:37:10 2010 From: djshag at hotmail.com (Patnad Babii) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:37:10 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net><4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com><704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net><609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: most of the games run only in windows anyways, its 80% of their userbase at the least. Also its not true they can't run on mac and linux as theres mono now that make it possible. -----Message d'origine----- From: Argent Stonecutter Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 3:59 PM To: OpenSource Mailing List Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-04, at 14:23, Patnad Babii wrote: > Switch to C# and everything become easier to deploy.... and use TFS for QA > and saving sources. If you don't mind a 2-5x performance hit on Windows and an elimination of the Linux and Mac clients. _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From tateru.nino at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 13:46:00 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 06:46:00 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] C# etc (Was: Re: Plugins/Modular architecture) In-Reply-To: References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net><4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com><704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net><609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C82B008.5020102@gmail.com> Can I just jump in here and ask *really* nicely that we don't start in on a "my programming language has a good two inches on your programming language and lasts a good deal longer under hot studio lighting" thread? Because approximately 60 billion postings later, none of us will have actually gained anything from it and we'll all have wished we'd spent our time doing something else, like... Oh, I don't know, talking about practical viewer development or some-such. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From javajoint at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 14:00:48 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:00:48 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> <609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Patnad Babii wrote: > most of the games run only in windows anyways, its 80% of their userbase at > the least. > > Also its not true they can't run on mac and linux as theres mono now that > make it possible. > > > C# would be too slow. It is true that Mono would be the Mac and Linux base for this approach. It would also involve reinventing too many wheels. Please rattle off the names of some graphics intensive multiplayer games/environments based on C#, with stellar frame rates. If you're going to consider any change of direction that would involve C#, the far better route to choose would be the Unity3D engine. That way, you can have a consistent code base across Windows and Mac, and use C#, JavaScript, and Boo for scripting. There would be the huge issue as to how to tie in legacy LSL client side support. A front end done in Unity (with an OpenSim backend) is http://www.reslive.com/ Realistically, the 1.x and 2.x C++ code bases are going to be around for a long time, and much can be done with them. -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/daed023e/attachment.htm From nickyd_sl at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 14:02:36 2010 From: nickyd_sl at yahoo.com (Nicky Fullton) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <822105.65553.qm@web120001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > From: Patnad Babii > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture > To: "OpenSource Mailing List" > Date: Saturday, September 4, 2010, 8:37 PM > most of the games run only in windows > anyways, its 80% of their userbase at > the least. > > Also its not true they can't run on mac and linux as theres > mono now that > make it possible. This is true. But keep in mind that mono does not support all the features the Microsoft C# compiler offers. Neither does it offer all the assemblies Windows has, which I think might be the bigger problem. In any case would one have to rewrite the whole code to C#. I am not sure if you are willing to fund the development and QA of that ;) Right now I doubt anyone would be willing to pay for that. Not to forgot someone would have to pay for the TFS server licence and the client CALs, Unless of course you buy VS Team Edition, which includes a CAL, but costs some serious cash aswell. Not to forget you need a admin for that. When you researched about TFS, some even suggested a full time admin for it. (Not sure if that is really necessary or just overkill). Besides that do I think that deploying a .NET app solves some problems. But on the other hand you just get new problems. I saw enough corrupted .NET installs and GACs to know that not everything is golden in .NET land. Nicky From nickyperian at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 15:52:07 2010 From: nickyperian at yahoo.com (Nicky Perian) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 15:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> <609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <120553.96213.qm@web43503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Ann, At one point I thought that just skipping 2008 all together would be the way forward since LL doesn't seem inclined to move quickly off the obsolete 2005 anyway. But, I started before 2010 came out and it has been a struggle just to get a good build from 2008. IMO, much of the problems have been because I have stayed with the Express Versions of 2005 and 2008. So, I have stayed with a measured approach of stepping form 2005 to 2008 and build a learning base since I was new to all versions of VS and VC++ express. If you want to jump on board 2010 and give it a go I and I am sure several others on list will be glad to give a additional sets of eyes and test your builds. But these build issues take a lot of time to resolve namely, rebuilding libraries so that they fit 2010 and the viewer-development code base. So, it is certainly doable but it takes almost all time available to resolve the build issues and leaves little time for bug corrections and feature additions. Nicky ________________________________ From: Ann Otoole To: Nicky Perian ; Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 2:19:09 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture you mean like the obsolete libraries that show up with tp SL viewers? Like the one that dumps a bunch of garbage in the root and then does not uninstall them? And that screws up the system forcing you to have to redu windows updates to overwrite the obsolete libs from 2005? ________________________________ From: Nicky Perian To: Ann Otoole ; Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 1:14:14 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell. ________________________________ From: Ann Otoole To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current environment? ________________________________ From: Brendan Wilson To: OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring it to VS2008(vc90) From:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? ________________________________ From:Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/614543f0/attachment-0001.htm From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 4 20:06:23 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 23:06:23 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <120553.96213.qm@web43503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> <609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <120553.96213.qm@web43503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002d01cb4ca7$52536e80$f6fa4b80$@net> I agree with NickP, as it took me over 24hours of some serious compiling time to solve and issue that does not even show up while your compiling the viewer but when you go to run the viewer after a build cycle. I had to completely rebuilt the qtwebkit libs using Visual Studio 2008 so that the manifest mismatch in media_plugin_webkit would be corrected. And right now cmake and even the develop script(what helps you set up the project so you can even do a build will not even recognize Visual Studio 2010 properly at this point in time. WolfpupL From: Nicky Perian [mailto:nickyperian at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:52 PM To: Ann Otoole; Brendan Wilson; OpenSource Mailing List Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Ann, At one point I thought that just skipping 2008 all together would be the way forward since LL doesn't seem inclined to move quickly off the obsolete 2005 anyway. But, I started before 2010 came out and it has been a struggle just to get a good build from 2008. IMO, much of the problems have been because I have stayed with the Express Versions of 2005 and 2008. So, I have stayed with a measured approach of stepping form 2005 to 2008 and build a learning base since I was new to all versions of VS and VC++ express. If you want to jump on board 2010 and give it a go I and I am sure several others on list will be glad to give a additional sets of eyes and test your builds. But these build issues take a lot of time to resolve namely, rebuilding libraries so that they fit 2010 and the viewer-development code base. So, it is certainly doable but it takes almost all time available to resolve the build issues and leaves little time for bug corrections and feature additions. Nicky _____ From: Ann Otoole To: Nicky Perian ; Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 2:19:09 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture you mean like the obsolete libraries that show up with tp SL viewers? Like the one that dumps a bunch of garbage in the root and then does not uninstall them? And that screws up the system forcing you to have to redu windows updates to overwrite the obsolete libs from 2005? _____ From: Nicky Perian To: Ann Otoole ; Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 1:14:14 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Libraries, Libraries, Libraries and MS redistribution hell. _____ From: Ann Otoole To: Brendan Wilson ; OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:10:12 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Why would anyone be burning time on VS2008 when VS2010 is the current environment? _____ From: Brendan Wilson To: OpenSource Mailing List Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 9:00:33 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Not yet they have just started working on bring it to VS2008 and even doing that is by a lot of effort from the OS community there even a jira on at least bring it to VS2008(vc90) From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Ann Otoole Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AM To: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence); opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture Has this project code been brought forward to Visual Studio 2010? _____ From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 9:32:54 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture On 2010-09-03 9:14, Lawson English wrote: > On 9/2/10 8:13 AM, Talia Tokugawa wrote: >> [...] >> I know this has been suggested before as friends have suggested it. >> Why not make the viewer more Modular? Introduce a plugin architecture. >> Allow any user to "build" their own client that fits their needs and >> requirements. >> > Its a HUGE undertaking to do that. LL wasn't willing to tackle the issue > directly years ago and they probably don't have the resources to do it > now. It would have to be a community-lead effort and I'm not sure that > developers are willing to invest the time to refactor the viewer at that > level unless LL will be willing to seriously consider using the > resulting re-architectured viewer. Try us... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3113 - Release Date: 09/04/10 02:34:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3114 - Release Date: 09/04/10 14:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100904/86b5ce8a/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Sun Sep 5 00:54:14 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:54:14 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display Names open source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8180FF.6070400@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100905095414.f29905d4.sldev@free.fr> On Sat, 4 Sep 2010 12:15:08 -0700, CG Linden wrote: > And the latest builds are available via this permalink: > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/viewer-identity/latest.html > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) > wrote: > > > We had some technical difficulties with getting it properly prepared > > for publication (resolved with the able help of Aimee), but the source > > for the Display Names branch is now available at: > > > > http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-identity > > > > It is worthy of notice that this is the first Project release under our > > new development methodology - source code and a running viewer available > > from an internal Linden Lab team other than Snowstorm. Any chance to get a single diff between the base sources of the viewer version that was used to implement display names, and the fully display-names implemented viewer sources ?... Or to get a hold on the sources for the viewer on which the display-name viewer was based ?... That would be a great help for porting this feature to TPVs... Henri. From xotmid at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 02:04:53 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 04:04:53 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display Names open source In-Reply-To: <20100905095414.f29905d4.sldev@free.fr> References: <4C8180FF.6070400@lindenlab.com> <20100905095414.f29905d4.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: That would be nice. On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 2:54 AM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Sat, 4 Sep 2010 12:15:08 -0700, CG Linden wrote: > > > And the latest builds are available via this permalink: > > > > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/viewer-identity/latest.html > > > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < > oz at lindenlab.com > > > wrote: > > > > > We had some technical difficulties with getting it properly prepared > > > for publication (resolved with the able help of Aimee), but the source > > > for the Display Names branch is now available at: > > > > > > http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-identity > > > > > > It is worthy of notice that this is the first Project release under our > > > new development methodology - source code and a running viewer > available > > > from an internal Linden Lab team other than Snowstorm. > > Any chance to get a single diff between the base sources of the viewer > version that was used to implement display names, and the fully > display-names > implemented viewer sources ?... Or to get a hold on the sources for the > viewer > on which the display-name viewer was based ?... That would be a great help > for porting this feature to TPVs... > > Henri. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100905/25494034/attachment-0001.htm From makosoft at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 02:54:23 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:54:23 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Display Names open source In-Reply-To: <20100905095414.f29905d4.sldev@free.fr> References: <4C8180FF.6070400@lindenlab.com> <20100905095414.f29905d4.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > Any chance to get a single diff between the base sources of the viewer > version that was used to implement display names, and the fully display-names > implemented viewer sources ?... Or to get a hold on the sources for the viewer > on which the display-name viewer was based ?... That would be a great help > for porting this feature to TPVs... > > Henri. If Linden Labs have been using Mercurial properly, that should be fairly easy - and in fact it is relatively easy. Last merged revision from the upstream code is currently b532610841b5, so "hg diff -r b532610841b5" will produce the appropriate diff. It's huge, though! ( http://www.makomk.com/~aidan/viewer-display-names-to-ab6c7c8908a4.patch - see what I mean?). This is actually something that's slightly easier to do in git, but oh well... From sodovan.torok at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 04:37:16 2010 From: sodovan.torok at gmail.com (Sodovan Torok) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 07:37:16 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] C# etc (Was: Re: Plugins/Modular architecture) In-Reply-To: <4C82B008.5020102@gmail.com> References: <4C80F498.901@cox.net> <4C80F906.6040105@lindenlab.com> <704306.8157.qm@web120513.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <003f01cb4c31$29261060$7b723120$@net> <609790.8512.qm@web120512.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <809066.48559.qm@web43515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <768779.12208.qm@web120516.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4C82B008.5020102@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Can I just jump in here and ask *really* nicely that we don't start in > on a "my programming language has a good two inches on your programming > language and lasts a good deal longer under hot studio lighting" thread? > But, Tateru, *everyone* knows that MACLisp is far superior to PL/1 for implementing highly interactive terminal applications in Multics! > > Because approximately 60 billion postings later, none of us will have > actually gained anything from it and we'll all have wished we'd spent > our time doing something else, like... Oh, I don't know, talking about > practical viewer development or some-such. > Hear, hear! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100905/4a07c7c2/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 07:14:04 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:14:04 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Which build should I try? Message-ID: I am just a noob here on opensource-dev, and I feel a little confused. Which build should I be testing? DEV? BETA? OTHER? V2? I tried 209029_DEV, and all I can report there is that it starts and then freezes up on my iMac. Should I create a Jira or send my logs somewhere? Or is that totally expected behavior. i also have one unexpected behavior in 207030. I get these weird yellow bars that flash for only a second or two. Haven't been able to capture a snapshot yet, because they don't last long and I cannot reproduce them. They only seem to occur when I am using alt-zoom. Same questions, is this worth a Jira or is anyone here intereted in logs or such? Anyway, keep up the GREAT work everyone, some of us love you even if we yell at you once in awhile. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100905/047070dd/attachment.htm From latifer at streamgrid.net Sun Sep 5 07:26:56 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 16:26:56 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Which build should I try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Probably the best would be to test these: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/snowstorm_viewer-development/latest.html And report bugs (remember to select 2.1.2 as the affected version). Latif On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Ponzu wrote: > I am just a noob here on opensource-dev, and I feel a little confused. > Which build should I be testing? ?DEV? BETA? ?OTHER? ?V2? > I tried 209029_DEV, and all I can report there is that it starts and then > freezes up on my iMac. ?Should I create a Jira or send my logs somewhere? > ?Or is that totally expected behavior. > i also have one unexpected behavior in 207030. ?I get these weird yellow > bars that flash for only a second or two. ?Haven't been able to capture a > snapshot yet, because they don't last long and I cannot reproduce them. > ?They only seem to occur when I am using alt-zoom. ?Same questions, is this > worth a Jira or is anyone here intereted in logs or such? > Anyway, keep up the GREAT work everyone, some of us love you even if we yell > at you once in awhile. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 08:17:19 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 08:17:19 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture In-Reply-To: <822105.65553.qm@web120001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <822105.65553.qm@web120001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5CBA0C82-B3AA-41E5-85D2-5BD564C4348D@gmail.com> If you're going to think about a rewrite, you may as well take a look at Objective-C. Modular, cross-platform, would enable a decent Mac client (at last), and put things like cross-platform 64-bit versions and even clients for iOS (iPad) within reach. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C On Sep 4, 2010, at 2:02 PM, Nicky Fullton wrote: > >> From: Patnad Babii >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Plugins/Modular architecture >> To: "OpenSource Mailing List" >> Date: Saturday, September 4, 2010, 8:37 PM >> most of the games run only in windows >> anyways, its 80% of their userbase at >> the least. >> >> Also its not true they can't run on mac and linux as theres >> mono now that >> make it possible. > > This is true. But keep in mind that mono does not support all the features > the Microsoft C# compiler offers. > Neither does it offer all the assemblies Windows has, which I think might > be the bigger problem. > > In any case would one have to rewrite the whole code to C#. I am not sure > if you are willing to fund the development and QA of that ;) Right now > I doubt anyone would be willing to pay for that. > Not to forgot someone would have to pay for the TFS server licence and the > client CALs, Unless of course you buy VS Team Edition, which includes a > CAL, but costs some serious cash aswell. > Not to forget you need a admin for that. When you researched about TFS, > some even suggested a full time admin for it. (Not sure if that is really > necessary or just overkill). > > > Besides that do I think that deploying a .NET app solves some problems. But > on the other hand you just get new problems. > > I saw enough corrupted .NET installs and GACs to know that not everything > is golden in .NET land. > > Nicky > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 08:38:16 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 11:38:16 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Which build should I try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same kind of crash as 209029. Starts up. Logs in. Avatar a cloud. Music Stream starts to play. Cursor is the little spinner thing. Wait five minutes. Open Force Quit window, it says SL is Not Responding. Frankly, a Jira that says Doesn't Work for Me won't help much, I think. But if that's what I should do, let me know. lee On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Latif Khalifa wrote: > Hi, > > Probably the best would be to test these: > > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/snowstorm_viewer-development/latest.html > > And report bugs (remember to select 2.1.2 as the affected version). > > Latif > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100905/27688b11/attachment.htm From tillie at xp2.de Sun Sep 5 09:00:20 2010 From: tillie at xp2.de (Tillie Ariantho) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 18:00:20 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Which build should I try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C83BE94.9050806@xp2.de> On 05.09.2010 17:38, Ponzu wrote: > Same kind of crash as 209029. >> http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/snowstorm_viewer-development/latest.html On Windows I couldn't log in with the latest build, I had to revert back to 208921. Tillie From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 09:33:38 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 12:33:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Which build should I try? In-Reply-To: <4C83BE94.9050806@xp2.de> References: <4C83BE94.9050806@xp2.de> Message-ID: So, new question... What is the last build known to allow logging in from a Mac? (I have iMac and mbp, and both freeze at login.) As an aside. I just spent an hour trouble shooting only to discover that logins are disabled. My crash is older than that (yesterday), but seemed humorous nonetheless. On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Tillie Ariantho wrote: > On 05.09.2010 17:38, Ponzu wrote: > > > Same kind of crash as 209029. > > >> > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/snowstorm_viewer-development/latest.html > > On Windows I couldn't log in with the latest build, I had to revert back to > 208921.ife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100905/050dc2d9/attachment.htm From open at autistici.org Mon Sep 6 04:07:15 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:07:15 +0000 Subject: [opensource-dev] User story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:06:25 -0700, Whatcha Eaton wrote: > As a user [...] I'd like the search box to take focus when I press ctrl-i > for the inventory side-bar. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18496 has been reopened after it was closed/resolved by Dessie Linden as Expected Behavior also http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-19700 has been created as a new feature request please vote & comment both of them since I can't really say what's the correct one. This sounds like a regression to me and other users, but since Dessie had closed VWR-18496, I also created the feature request. Opensource Obscure From tofu at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 6 05:01:21 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 13:01:21 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C84D811.2020008@lindenlab.com> Hi Robin, Is there a clear blocker for this? My loose grasp of the situation is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this works for them out in the wild. Is this correct? Cheers. Robin Cornelius wrote: > As mentioned at Oz's OH yesterday, I would like to try to finish off > the Socks 5 proxy work in the sprint about to start, my repository can > be found at > > https://bitbucket.org/robincornelius/viewer-development-vwr-20801 > > It is a few days out of date, and I will address that ASAP, but I am > more concerned with the functionality of the core feature at this > immediate stage to make sure it does what it says on the tin for > everyone else. I've compiled on all 3 platforms ok but I've only > tested currently on windows as my other boxes are having issues > running the viewer (for various off topic reasons that i'm fixing when > i get time) > > I started a test plan (also incomplete/outof date currently) > https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1LM1EjS_RFzgR_3nkDkrpM8NMBuQaeJo7CDbp21fCE_Q&hl=en&authkey=CIjDl9sB > > The proxy supports the same feature set as the original implementation > in Snowglobe 1.X, that is http traffic can be sent to a http proxy > (web proxy setting) independent of the UDP trafic being sent to a > socks 5 proxy. This provides combinations that allow > http-texture/asset to be sent via squids (with appropriate store > rewrite rule) to cache textures/assets. Access to these extra modes > can be achieved by clicking the tool icon to the side of the socks > proxy address/port field on preferences/network > > I believe this feature is a partial answer to the story "As a > Business User, I am sometimes unable to access SL at all from behind > my company firewall. How do I work around this?" on the back log, > clearly this only provides one method to work from behind a firewall > and currently it does not address Voice at all. It is possible to > proxy voice via socks 5 as well, but this requires other modifications > that are outside the scope of this jira/feature, but is something I > have done a functional proof of concept test on, i just need to find a > clean solution that is acceptable and easy to use. > > Robin > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From tofu at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 6 05:58:39 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 13:58:39 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] How to get your changes merged pretty quickly! Message-ID: <4C84E57F.1080501@lindenlab.com> A quick note for people since there's still some confusion (and will probably be more, as we migrate to the new Jira workflow, sorrrrry): If you have some changes that you think are: + Working properly + Adequately reviewed + Ready for day-to-day public consumption ... then please assign the issue to 'snowglobe team' and set QA status to 'ready to integrate'. Then they'll pop up in our filter magically and someone will likely merge them. This is not meant to be a complete articulation of the submission process, just the final bit. :) Cheers. From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Mon Sep 6 06:12:10 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 15:12:10 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] How to get your changes merged pretty quickly! In-Reply-To: <4C84E57F.1080501@lindenlab.com> References: <4C84E57F.1080501@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C84E8AA.7030000@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Hi Tofu Thanks for clearing this up! On 09/06/2010 02:58 PM, Tofu Linden wrote: > If you have some changes that you think are: > + Working properly > + Adequately reviewed > + Ready for day-to-day public consumption > > ... then please assign the issue to 'snowglobe team' and set QA status > to 'ready to integrate'. Then they'll pop up in our filter magically > and someone will likely merge them. What if the second point (Adequately reviewed) is still missing? What's the difference between "Fixed - On Review" and "Fixed - Ready for QA"? Cheers, Boroondas From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 6 07:02:45 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 10:02:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] How to get your changes merged pretty quickly! In-Reply-To: <4C84E8AA.7030000@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C84E57F.1080501@lindenlab.com> <4C84E8AA.7030000@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <4C84F485.6050708@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-06 9:12, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > Hi Tofu > > Thanks for clearing this up! > > On 09/06/2010 02:58 PM, Tofu Linden wrote: >> If you have some changes that you think are: >> + Working properly >> + Adequately reviewed >> + Ready for day-to-day public consumption >> >> ... then please assign the issue to 'snowglobe team' and set QA status >> to 'ready to integrate'. Then they'll pop up in our filter magically >> and someone will likely merge them. > What if the second point (Adequately reviewed) is still missing? > > What's the difference between "Fixed - On Review" and "Fixed - Ready for > QA"? The former is "developer done - please review code & functionality"; the later is "code has been integrated - QA should verify". Those are separate states in the new workflow that should be live tomorrow. From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 6 07:07:49 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 10:07:49 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Which build should I try? In-Reply-To: References: <4C83BE94.9050806@xp2.de> Message-ID: <4C84F5B5.8070901@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-05 12:33, Ponzu wrote: > So, new question... > > What is the last build known to allow logging in from a Mac? (I have > iMac and mbp, and both freeze at login.) > 208707 is working for me. From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 6 07:13:40 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 10:13:40 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801) In-Reply-To: <4C84D811.2020008@lindenlab.com> References: <4C84D811.2020008@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-06 8:01, Tofu Linden wrote: > Hi Robin, > Is there a clear blocker for this? My loose grasp of the situation > is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this > works for them out in the wild. Is this correct? It also needs an upgrade of the curl library. I've built the one that has a fix, but not tested it in a viewer build - perhaps you can help with that part, Tofu. The repo that builds the new curl is at http://hg.lindenlab.com/oz/curl-autobuild From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 07:46:38 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 10:46:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Which build should I try? In-Reply-To: <4C84F5B5.8070901@lindenlab.com> References: <4C83BE94.9050806@xp2.de> <4C84F5B5.8070901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-09-05 12:33, Ponzu wrote: > > So, new question... > > > > What is the last build known to allow logging in from a Mac? (I have > > iMac and mbp, and both freeze at login.) > > > 208707 is working for me. > > OK, thanks. I am still curious, though. Is it somehow normal that the "latest" build fails to even completely launch? Is it my hardware or something? My settings? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100906/3fb1bb4c/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 08:09:22 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:09:22 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801) In-Reply-To: <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> References: <4C84D811.2020008@lindenlab.com> <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Are there users to test this? I don't mean to be catty, but if there aren't people clamoring for this, maybe it can go lower on the priority list. Just saying... Faster, Easier, Funner...yeah, that's the ticket. On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-09-06 8:01, Tofu Linden wrote: > > Hi Robin, > > Is there a clear blocker for this? My loose grasp of the situation > > is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this > > works for them out in the wild. Is this correct? > It also needs an upgrade of the curl library. > > I've built the one that has a fix, but not tested it in a viewer build - > perhaps you can help with that part, Tofu. The repo that builds the new > curl is at http://hg.lindenlab.com/oz/curl-autobuild > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100906/e1b132d0/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 08:16:18 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:16:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Somewhat stable developer viewer Message-ID: The snow storm wiki seems to say that users should try - Viewer 2 (stable) - Development Viewer snap shot (somewhat stable) - Latest Build (look out!) The problem is there is no hint about the Snap Shot? ?Even just a build number would be OK. ?Oz has suggested 208707 works for him, but it is not on the page with all the latest builds. ?209029 and 209046 *don't* work for me. ?They partially start, and then freeze. ?(Do those reports *really* go to Apple? ?Do they forward them to you guys? ?Do you need some scripts that process them and categorize them? ?That I could probably do.) Until I can get my head wrapped around the whole development cycle, I see myself making minor contributions to the Wiki and to testing. lee From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 6 08:54:16 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:54:16 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Somewhat stable developer viewer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C850EA8.2000009@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-06 11:16, Ponzu wrote: > The snow storm wiki seems to say that users should try > > - Viewer 2 (stable) > - Development Viewer snap shot (somewhat stable) > - Latest Build (look out!) > > The problem is there is no hint about the Snap Shot? Even just a > build number would be OK. Oz has suggested 208707 works for him, but > it is not on the page with all the latest builds. 209029 and 209046 > *don't* work for me. They partially start, and then freeze. (Do > those reports*really* go to Apple? Do they forward them to you guys? > Do you need some scripts that process them and categorize them? That > I could probably do. We've had a little trouble with getting the bi-weekly build added to the downloads page, but it should be there on Tuesday, and we'll add a pointer to the wiki then. In the mean time, this is the latest Development build I've tested on my Mac: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/snowstorm_viewer-development/rev/208921/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100906/1853f436/attachment.htm From tillie at xp2.de Mon Sep 6 09:33:50 2010 From: tillie at xp2.de (Tillie Ariantho) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:33:50 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Which build should I try? In-Reply-To: References: <4C83BE94.9050806@xp2.de> <4C84F5B5.8070901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C8517EE.50204@xp2.de> On 06.09.2010 16:46, Ponzu wrote: > OK, thanks. I am still curious, though. Is it somehow normal that the > "latest" build fails to even completely launch? Is it my hardware or > something? My settings? Ponzu, it's DEV builds, they can do ANYTHING besides running. ^^ Tillie From aimee at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 6 09:53:14 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 17:53:14 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) Message-ID: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> Hi, Could I get some eyes on a fix for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21253 ... http://bitbucket.org/aimee_linden/viewer-development-tweaks/changeset/fb38222f1b08 A test build containing this is available here ... http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/aimee_viewer-development-tweaks/rev/208486/index.html Thanks, Aimee. From sythos at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 10:18:22 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 19:18:22 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Somewhat stable developer viewer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100906191822.94aaa253.sythos@gmail.com> On Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:16:18 -0400 Ponzu wrote: > The problem is there is no hint about the Snap Shot? ?Even just a > build number would be OK. ?Oz has suggested 208707 works for him, but > it is not on the page with all the latest builds. ?209029 and 209046 > *don't* work for me. ?They partially start, and then freeze. ?(Do i've a 6years old iMac 24", it work "fine" (12fps...), with snow leopard (ATI video) it work... but: if UseAppleMultiGL=TRUE ==> crash or if RenderTriangle (memory leak, maybe other name, is the debug options to render using triangles)=TRUE ==> crash try to delete it (so delete settings too) and reinstall again (and don't touch 2 parameters above) i'm using: http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/snowstorm_viewer-development/rev/209046/arch/Darwin/installer/SecondLife_2_1_2_209046_DEVELOPMENT.dmg From marinekelley at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 10:37:07 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 19:37:07 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Err... color me stupid but... how does one show the friends list in this style on viewer 2 ? I can detach tabs from the sidebar, but I cannot find a way to show the permissions matrix. It would be so handy ! Thanks, Marine On 6 September 2010 18:53, Aimee Linden wrote: > Hi, > > Could I get some eyes on a fix for > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21253 ... > > > http://bitbucket.org/aimee_linden/viewer-development-tweaks/changeset/fb38222f1b08 > > A test build containing this is available here ... > > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/aimee_viewer-development-tweaks/rev/208486/index.html > > Thanks, > > Aimee. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100906/7a579b8a/attachment.htm From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 12:50:15 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 12:50:15 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Marine Kelley wrote: > Err... color me stupid but... how does one show the friends list in this > style on viewer 2 ? I can detach tabs from the sidebar, but I cannot find a > way to show the permissions matrix. It would be so handy ! Hover the mouse over their name in the friends list and it will show the permission icons. Works fine for me on Linux. Looks like it uses the 1.23 icons which don't fit in with the theme on 2.x tho. From babytje_ab at live.com Mon Sep 6 13:19:27 2010 From: babytje_ab at live.com (Alexandrea Fride) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 22:19:27 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Works fine on windows to however icons dont fit with viewer 2 style :) if not mistaken those are the icons from viewer 1 (and prefered if the icons where a bit smaller in weight & height and more easly to define what is what) @Kelley that was probly a alpha viewer 2 release since if you look at chatbar etc style its completly different then we are used to On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 7:50 AM, leliel wrote: > On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Marine Kelley > wrote: >> Err... color me stupid but... how does one show the friends list in this >> style on viewer 2 ? I can detach tabs from the sidebar, but I cannot find >> a >> way to show the permissions matrix. It would be so handy ! > > Hover the mouse over their name in the friends list and it will show > the permission icons. > > Works fine for me on Linux. Looks like it uses the 1.23 icons which > don't fit in with the theme on 2.x tho. From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Mon Sep 6 13:23:13 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 22:23:13 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C854DB1.1020108@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 09/06/2010 07:37 PM, Marine Kelley wrote: > Err... color me stupid but... how does one show the friends list in > this style on viewer 2 ? I can detach tabs from the sidebar, but I > cannot find a way to show the permissions matrix. It would be so handy ! > [...] > > On 6 September 2010 18:53, Aimee Linden > wrote: > > Hi, > > Could I get some eyes on a fix for > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21253 ... > [...] > I guess you refer to the screenshot attached to the jira issue? Note the date when that one was added, Oct. 15, 20*09*. Also note the artwork and color scheme. I guess that was from an early development version of Viewer 2 that already had the people sidebar tab but also still had the old code of the contacts panel, so that both could be compared within a single application. (That, or it's a mock-up.) If you read the comments you'll note this isn't what Aimee has implemented now: She shows permissions in the hover tips, it seems. I'd still prefer to see all perms at one glance without hovering. Moon Metty's suggestion to only display non-default values would indeed avoid the cluttering and, more important, would also make these values stand out. I think this could nicely be done with icons similar the maturity rating and parcel permission ones in the navigation bar. Cheers, Boroondas PS: why are you CCing to snowstorm at lists.lindenlab.com? That list doesn't seem to exist. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100906/09c975ba/attachment.htm From marinekelley at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 13:44:18 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 22:44:18 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: <4C854DB1.1020108@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> <4C854DB1.1020108@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: On 6 September 2010 22:23, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > I guess you refer to the screenshot attached to the jira issue? Note the > date when that one was added, Oct. 15, 20*09*. Also note the artwork and > color scheme. I guess that was from an early development version of Viewer 2 > that already had the people sidebar tab but also still had the old code of > the contacts panel, so that both could be compared within a single > application. (That, or it's a mock-up.) > Yes that's what I suspected, but there was a chance that the old code would still be there and activated with a secret voodoo gesture. > PS: why are you CCing to snowstorm at lists.lindenlab.com? That list doesn't > seem to exist. > I replied to all as I always do, without bothering to what list I was actually sending. lol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100906/dc1ee6df/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 22:59:20 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 00:59:20 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 1.5 + Phoenix Doxygen + full Graphs Message-ID: http://dimentox.com/phoenixdox/ Snowglobe 1.5 + Phoenix Doxygen + full Graphs YAY! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100907/b5886fa0/attachment.htm From aimee at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 7 04:18:23 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:18:23 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: <4C854DB1.1020108@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> <4C854DB1.1020108@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: > On 09/06/2010 07:37 PM, Marine Kelley wrote: >> >> Err... color me stupid but... how does one show the friends list in this style on viewer 2 ? I can detach tabs from the sidebar, but I cannot find a way to show the permissions matrix. It would be so handy ! On 6 Sep 2010, at 21:23, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > I guess you refer to the screenshot attached to the jira issue? Note the date when that one was added, Oct. 15, 2009. Also note the artwork and color scheme. I guess that was from an early development version of Viewer 2 that already had the people sidebar tab but also still had the old code of the contacts panel, so that both could be compared within a single application. (That, or it's a mock-up.) Yes, that screenshot is quite old, sorry for the confusion :) > If you read the comments you'll note this isn't what Aimee has implemented now: She shows permissions in the hover tips, it seems. The permission icons appear inline, alongside the 'i' and '->' buttons for each person. > > I'd still prefer to see all perms at one glance without hovering. Moon Metty's suggestion to only display non-default values would indeed avoid the cluttering and, more important, would also make these values stand out. I think this could nicely be done with icons similar the maturity rating and parcel permission ones in the navigation bar. On 6 Sep 2010, at 20:50, leliel wrote: > Works fine for me on Linux. Looks like it uses the 1.23 icons which > don't fit in with the theme on 2.x tho. Yes that's expected, just temporary until we have new artwork. Aimee. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100907/bece0085/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Tue Sep 7 05:45:47 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 14:45:47 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> <4C854DB1.1020108@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <4C8633FB.9000407@boroon.dasgupta.ch> During testing, I made some interesting observations that I wanted to comment about, but JIRA is read-only at the moment, so I'll just paste it here: Tested, works as expected with the following exceptions: Revoking "See my online status" permission automatically also revokes "See me on the map" permission This can be seen by the following observations: * In *step 8*, the "See me on the map" icon also no longer appears * In *step 9*, the "See me on the map" is already unchecked (OFF), so this step cannot be performed I guess this is expected behavior, as the ability to locate someone on the map would leak the fact that they're online. However, I think there should be some visual indication of this when revoking the "See my online status" permission. I.e. in *step 7*, we should have: * *Expected:* The "See me on the map" checkbox is unchecked (OFF) and disabled (grayed out) Permission icons not updating for granter while hovering over grantee's name To reproduce: As TESTER1: 1. View "Notes & Privacy" of TESTER2's profile and change the permissions. 2. Immediately click *[<]* to return to TESTER1's friend list. 3. Immediately hover over TESTER2's name. * *Observed:* Sometimes you still see the old permissions. * *Observed:* If this happens, as long as you keep hovering, they won't update. 4. Move the mouse off the friends list. 5. Re-hover the mouse cursor over TESTER2's name. * *Observed:* Now the visible icons correspond to the new permissions. Interestingly, when TESTER2 hovers over TESTER1's name while TESTER1 changes the "Edit, delete or take my objects" permission, TESTER2 will see the corresponding icon appear/disappear without having to un-hover and re-hover. On 09/07/2010 01:18 PM, Aimee Linden wrote: >> If you read the comments you'll note this isn't what Aimee has >> implemented now: She shows permissions in the hover tips, it seems. > > The permission icons appear inline, alongside the 'i' and '->' buttons > for each person. Yes, I noticed that when finally testing your build myself today. This is of course much better than in tool tips, because like this the icons are visible immediately on mouse-over. :-) While that makes it less pressing, I still stand by my wish below: >> I'd still prefer to see all perms at one glance without hovering. >> Moon Metty's suggestion to only display non-default values would >> indeed avoid the cluttering and, more important, would also make >> these values stand out. I think this could nicely be done with icons >> similar the maturity rating and parcel permission ones in the >> navigation bar. I don't really see the use case for the option to *not show* the icons even *when hovering*. Maybe the above could be solved by replacing it with an option to *show* the icons even *when not hovering*? Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100907/91cb3f52/attachment-0001.htm From ardylay at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 07:18:12 2010 From: ardylay at gmail.com (Ardy Lay) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 09:18:12 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C8649A4.8020303@gmail.com> On 9/6/2010 11:53 AM, Aimee Linden wrote: > Hi, > > Could I get some eyes on a fix for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21253 ... > > http://bitbucket.org/aimee_linden/viewer-development-tweaks/changeset/fb38222f1b08 > > A test build containing this is available here ... > > http://automated-builds-secondlife-com.s3.amazonaws.com/hg/repo/aimee_viewer-development-tweaks/rev/208486/index.html > > Thanks, > > Aimee. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges The provided build implodes 4 seconds after launch it on Windows 7. I'll pick up the change set, build that and see what happens. From babytje_ab at live.com Tue Sep 7 07:21:36 2010 From: babytje_ab at live.com (Alexandrea Fride) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 16:21:36 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: <4C8649A4.8020303@gmail.com> References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> <4C8649A4.8020303@gmail.com> Message-ID: llkdu.dll problem hapend to me to, replace the dll from the officialy viewer 2.1 or devenlopbuild that worked -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ardy Lay" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:18 PM To: Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) > The provided build implodes 4 seconds after launch it on Windows 7. > I'll pick up the change set, build that and see what happens. From aimee at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 7 09:57:33 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 17:57:33 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions icons in the friends list) In-Reply-To: References: <88E1533F-971C-4F9A-AA3E-6562DB582DC6@lindenlab.com> <4C8649A4.8020303@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah yep, that build's not been rebuilt since before the LLKDU fix, sorry about that, a new build should be up shortly. Aimee. On 7 Sep 2010, at 15:21, Alexandrea Fride wrote: > llkdu.dll problem hapend to me to, replace the dll from the officialy viewer > 2.1 or devenlopbuild that worked > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ardy Lay" > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:18 PM > To: > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Code Review Request: VWR-21253 (Permissions > icons in the friends list) > >> The provided build implodes 4 seconds after launch it on Windows 7. >> I'll pick up the change set, build that and see what happens. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From akanevsky at productengine.com Tue Sep 7 14:49:00 2010 From: akanevsky at productengine.com (Anya Kanevsky) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:49:00 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] added link to Smoke test result in wiki Message-ID: Hi! I've added a link to the latest smoke test results in the Snowstorm wiki page (under Communications). I will keep that section up to date with links to new results as they become available (we expect to have a continuous testing cycle). I will only keep links to test results for the current sprint on the wiki, however the spreadsheets will remain accessible indefinitely. In the spreadsheets, first tab will always contain the summary, and additional tabs will show results by OS. Anya -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100907/822a48b4/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 7 18:25:48 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 21:25:48 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe Message-ID: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> The Snowglobe project has served a very useful purpose, but as I said when we launched Project Snowstorm, we need to be clear that our open source efforts are focused there. We're making very good progress importing the features and fixes from Snowglobe into the viewer-development repository, and it's time to make sure that we're not splitting our efforts. In keeping with that, here's the outline of what we'll be doing with Snowglobe in the coming months: *Immediately * * Take down the snowglobeproject.org web site Apparently not updated since Rob L. left, it's horribly out of date. If you can still find pointers to it on the wiki, please point them out to me or remove them. * Remove Snowglobe from the secondlife.com downloads page This has already been done. The download pointers on the wiki will remain for as long as Snowglobe is allowed as a viewer *Snowglobe will be allowed as a Second Life Viewer for as long as version 1.23 is allowed.* *We know that we have a lot of work to do before disallowing 1.23 would be appropriate, and do not have any plan to stop allowing either Snowglobe or version 1.23.* * Stop the twice-weekly open source meetings. We have the various open meetings of Project Snowstorm, and all our open tracking systems. Members of the Snowstorm team have Office Hours, and those will continue (and new ones may be added). *In 1 week *(Tuesday Sept 14) * Remove viewer-external from hg.secondlife.com * Disable all write access to the Snowglobe subversion repository * Stop any remaining TeamCity Snowglobe builds *In 3 months* (Tuesday Dec 7)* * * Take down the Snowglobe subversion repository This should allow ample time to complete importing the changes from Snowglobe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100907/b090ccd2/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 7 22:05:02 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 22:05:02 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 09/07/2010 Message-ID: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2010 Also available here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive *=== General Notes ===* * Don't forget to grab tasks from the Sprint Backlog and update your time remaining on that task each day! * Merge Monkey of the Day: Merov *===Team Status===* *====Aimee====* *PAST* * * Completed hairy merge of james/viewer-identity-evolution with dessie/viewer-public * hg converted and merged display-names with viewer-development. * Update licenses to LGPL in new files introduced for display-names. * Requested code review of VWR-21253 (friend permission icons) * Sorting out lots of legal paperwork :( FUTURE * Integrate VWR-21253 (friend permission icons). * Remerge minimap avatar inspectors into display-names branch, conflicted with other work there and got stomped on in the merge. * Investigate another potential problem with the hg convert process to avoid us getting bitten by it. * Catch up on opensource-dev * Will be OOO Weds and Thurs. IMPEDIMENTS * Awaiting code review for VWR-21253 * Need design review of double-click teleport before integrating, where do we want to move the option to? ====Tofu==== OOO ====Oz==== PAST * Many more wiki updates (getting there) * wrote a blog post on LGPL license usage FUTURE * Discuss upcoming common code split at open source meeting today * Update Snowstorm dashboard in new Jira when it comes up * Update submission workflow IMPEDIMENTS * none not planned for ====Merov==== PAST * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: Perf tracking ** Move LLMetricPerformanceTester files from newview to llcommon ** Cleanup LLMetricPerformanceTester and documented it ** Implemented in llimagej2c to get decompression data FUTURE * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: Complete the Perf tracking work and publish wiki about it, get baseline data for KDU and Openjpeg * VWR-22759 : Chat Translator: Check with Esbee where we stand wrt design review IMPEDIMENTS * Kakadu license upgrade ====Q==== OOO ====Esbee==== PAST * Looked at VWR-21253. Sent feedback. * Backlog updates * Finished intro blog post * Edited Q's Blog post * Worked on blog post and sketches about UI customization FUTURE * Respond to Resident feedback * Accessibility meeting with Orange Planer and Gentle Heron * Finish UI customization blog post and share with Rhett * Backlog grooming * Send feedback to PE on detachable sidebars * Work on Jira VWR workflow proposal and send to Q for review * Review double-click to TP * Catch up with Merov on VWR-22759 IMPEDIMENTS * None ====Paul==== PAST *HDD is dead. Spent all day setting up. FUTURE * TASK VWR-21585 (Make all tabs support horizontal resizing) IMPEDIMENTS *new setup should work ====Andrew==== PAST *Implemented sub-task VWR-22690 (Saving/restoring button order), *All subtask reviews passed, completed test plans, created account on bitbucket, added changes with my comments: Subtask VWR-20702 (bottom bar button ordering) is done! yay! FUTURE *bugs. finally. IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Vadim==== PAST *Task VWR-20694 (Detachable SB tabs): **Submitted new images for dock/undock buttons. **Marked all subtasks as ready to integrate (and Tofu immediately integrated them all). *found bug with disappearing buttons in flat list view and investigated. **found cause - Richard did some optimization that went awry. **once new Jira is ready, will file a ticket and assign to him. *We've finished all leftover tasks from Sprint 2 (detachable SB tabs, reordering bottom tray buttons) FUTURE *Review Aimee's fix (review request on snowstorm list) *File bug for disappearing buttons and assign to Richard *Take tickets assigned to Sergey (vacation) IMPEDIMENTS *none ====Sergey==== PAST * Task (VWR-21060) Fix broken ability to open a side tray tab via shortcut, menu item or button outside of the Side Tray. ** Completed. But later found more bugs, fixing them now. * Task (VWR-20696) Write code to allow for undocking/redocking of a sidebar tab: Done. * Task (VWR-20970) Implement undocking tabs by dragging: Done. FUTURE * Task (VWR-21060) Fix broken ability to open a side tray tab via shortcut, menu item or button outside of the Side Tray. ** Fix recently discovered bugs. IMPEDIMENTS *Do we need a new art for "Undock" button in Side Tray. For now I used the existing floater "Tear Off" button. * Task (VWR-20697) Write code to allow for redocking of a sidebar tab ====Anya==== PAST * OOO FUTURE * catchup * new jira IMPEDIMENTS * none * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100907/48d4d3b3/attachment-0001.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Tue Sep 7 23:22:56 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 08:22:56 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] System Folders to Top In-Reply-To: <4C7EBFC6.1010001@gmail.com> References: <4C7EB202.3050206@gmail.com> <201009012249.34447.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C7EBFC6.1010001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201009080822.56774.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Found it, tried it, it doesnt do anything for me anymore... Am Wednesday 01 September 2010 schrieb Suz Dollar: > Inventory.SystemFoldersToTop > > Set to false will put the folders in full alpha numeric order with > special characters like ! at the top. Set to True will leave it > with system folders always at the top. I've had it with the system > folders mixed in for so long that it held the preference somewhere > long after the option dropped in 2.x. I had to go back to 1.23 to > figure out where the menu option was missing. This should be > somewhere on our options gadget, a loss imo from 1.23. > > Lance Corrimal wrote: > > Am Wednesday 01 September 2010 schrieb Suz Dollar: > >> As a user, I would like to be able to turn off the forced system > >> folders to top. This used to be an obvious and easy thing to > >> change back and forth on the fly and now seems to have been > >> removed and relegated to the debug menu. > > > > there's a debug menu item for that??? where which what how???? > > > > > > > > bye, > > LC > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > > posting privileges From tofu at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 8 04:00:44 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 12:00:44 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801) In-Reply-To: <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> References: <4C84D811.2020008@lindenlab.com> <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C876CDC.5040109@lindenlab.com> Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-06 8:01, Tofu Linden wrote: >> Hi Robin, >> Is there a clear blocker for this? My loose grasp of the situation >> is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this >> works for them out in the wild. Is this correct? > It also needs an upgrade of the curl library. > > I've built the one that has a fix, but not tested it in a viewer build - > perhaps you can help with that part, Tofu. The repo that builds the new > curl is at http://hg.lindenlab.com/oz/curl-autobuild Investigating. From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 04:17:52 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 12:17:52 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801) In-Reply-To: <4C876CDC.5040109@lindenlab.com> References: <4C84D811.2020008@lindenlab.com> <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> <4C876CDC.5040109@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Tofu Linden wrote: > Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> ? On 2010-09-06 8:01, Tofu Linden wrote: >>> Hi Robin, >>> Is there a clear blocker for this? ?My loose grasp of the situation >>> is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this >>> works for them out in the wild. ?Is this correct? >> It also needs an upgrade of the curl library. >> >> I've built the one that has a fix, but not tested it in a viewer build - >> perhaps you can help with that part, Tofu. ?The repo that builds the new >> curl is at http://hg.lindenlab.com/oz/curl-autobuild > > Investigating. > _______________________________________________ I can't access that build of curl but woul dbe happy to test it if i could Robin From tofu at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 8 05:01:12 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:01:12 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801) In-Reply-To: <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> References: <4C84D811.2020008@lindenlab.com> <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C877B08.7020203@lindenlab.com> Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-06 8:01, Tofu Linden wrote: >> Hi Robin, >> Is there a clear blocker for this? My loose grasp of the situation >> is that it's waiting for some Socks users to verify that this >> works for them out in the wild. Is this correct? > It also needs an upgrade of the curl library. > > I've built the one that has a fix, but not tested it in a viewer build - > perhaps you can help with that part, Tofu. The repo that builds the new > curl is at http://hg.lindenlab.com/oz/curl-autobuild Not a great success, sadly. On the official build machine (build-linux) the autobuild aborts with a python(?) error pretty quickly. On my local machine everything builds great, and basically runs, but the resulting libcurl doesn't have HTTPS support (it didn't find openssl, I guess) which we need. I'm not really familiar with autobuild - perhaps Brad has some input? Should I be running this on a specific host that isn't build-linux? I could pretty easily hand-roll a build to unblock VWR-20801, but autobuild is infinitely more desirable. Cheers. From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 05:13:42 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:13:42 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Request for review/testing Socks 5 support for viewer-development (VWR-20801) In-Reply-To: <4C877B08.7020203@lindenlab.com> References: <4C84D811.2020008@lindenlab.com> <4C84F714.5010205@lindenlab.com> <4C877B08.7020203@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Tofu Linden wrote: > Not a great success, sadly. > On the official build machine (build-linux) the autobuild aborts with a > python(?) error pretty quickly. > On my local machine everything builds great, and basically runs, but > the resulting libcurl doesn't have HTTPS support (it didn't find > openssl, I guess) which we need. > > I'm not really familiar with autobuild - perhaps Brad has some input? > Should I be running this on a specific host that isn't build-linux? > > I could pretty easily hand-roll a build to unblock VWR-20801, but > autobuild is infinitely more desirable. Yea handrolling is easy but clearly not where you want to be, Iv'e certainly done it for windows for testing the socks code and also build it for linux myself in the past no problems. One thing to note I'm not sure of the status of cares WRT non blocking curl dns lookups. Looking at the curl source it uses Windows threads for DNS lookups on win32, but it always was a requirment to use c-ares with --non-blocking on linux to prevent libresolv from stalling the viewer, it may have moved all DNS lookups to threads as the internal curl state machine does feature wait DNS states. Nothing should have changed here from the last curl package you releases though so once you have beaten the autobuild server to find openSSL it should just do what ever it did before and work fine. Robin From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 06:43:06 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:43:06 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Will there be a "snowstorm" viewer? From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 8 07:04:17 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 10:04:17 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C8797E1.2010402@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-08 9:43, Ponzu wrote: > Will there be a "snowstorm" viewer? Not by that name - there is a 'Development' viewer (available both from the wiki and the secondlife.com download page) that is the current viewer-development build. See https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Types From mike.dickson at hp.com Wed Sep 8 07:35:16 2010 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Mike Dickson) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 10:35:16 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8797E1.2010402@lindenlab.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8797E1.2010402@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C879F24.6020302@hp.com> On 09/08/2010 10:04 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-08 9:43, Ponzu wrote: >> Will there be a "snowstorm" viewer? > Not by that name - there is a 'Development' viewer (available both from > the wiki and the secondlife.com download page) that is the current > viewer-development build. > > See https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Types > So there's no plans for a "stabilized" Snowstorm? It will always be a dev build? How quickly would one expect code from a dev viewer to move to a beta and then released one? Mike > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From oz at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 8 07:50:26 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 10:50:26 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C879F24.6020302@hp.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8797E1.2010402@lindenlab.com> <4C879F24.6020302@hp.com> Message-ID: <4C87A2B2.5080907@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-08 10:35, Mike Dickson wrote: > On 09/08/2010 10:04 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> On 2010-09-08 9:43, Ponzu wrote: >>> Will there be a "snowstorm" viewer? >> Not by that name - there is a 'Development' viewer (available both from >> the wiki and the secondlife.com download page) that is the current >> viewer-development build. >> >> See https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Types >> > So there's no plans for a "stabilized" Snowstorm? It will always be a > dev build? How quickly would one expect code from a dev viewer to move > to a beta and then released one? The expectation is that the Development builds will be pretty stable. When "enough" stuff has been integrated, it will be pulled to a Beta repository and the usual release process will ensue from there. See https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Integration_and_Release_Processes What constitutes "enough" is something that's probably going to be kind of dynamic... From tillie at xp2.de Wed Sep 8 10:21:25 2010 From: tillie at xp2.de (Tillie Ariantho) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:21:25 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C87A2B2.5080907@lindenlab.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8797E1.2010402@lindenlab.com> <4C879F24.6020302@hp.com> <4C87A2B2.5080907@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C87C615.1050209@xp2.de> On 08.09.2010 16:50, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > The expectation is that the Development builds will be pretty stable. Needs some polishment before that. The DEV builds crash every now and then, with not much in the log and a created dump file of 0 bytes. If you have an idea how I can get more infos out of a crash, give me some hints. I'm installing about every second dev build and using it. :-) Tillie From talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com Wed Sep 8 12:15:47 2010 From: talia.tokugawa at googlemail.com (Talia Tokugawa) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 20:15:47 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Chat issues Message-ID: Hey, is this just me? In Snowstorm every so often in chat the last character on a line of text is replaced by a space. Specific example here.. What I see is [12:06] **** Nerd: got my vot everyone else sees [12:06] **** Nerd: got my vote I can also copy the line of text and paste it and it will be "vote" not "vot". It's literally just what I see that's wrong. Tal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/2d4868f9/attachment.htm From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Wed Sep 8 13:33:18 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 16:33:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Creation menu story. Message-ID: Overall User story: User story brief: As a user/content creator, I need more accessible and easier to find controls. User story expanded: As a user/content creator, It is hard to find the controls and features I need, and it requires more clicks and more time to use them. Furthermore, with the newest changes to 2.1 I can no longer easily access the controls to make new clothes or skins. Thus I would like to make it easier and faster to design clothing and skins in SL. Subpart userstory 1) As a User/Creator I want a more intuitive, friendly, faster, way to make clothing and skins Subpart userstory 2) As a User/Creator I want the ability to take off exactly what i don't want on Both these two userstories could be resolved with a menu similar to the one very quickly sketched out for http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22906 Please note it needs some polishing up but it was meant to give a general idea and to provide a starting point. Subpart userstory 3) As a User/Creator I want to undock the creation panels (already being worked on elsewhere and by others) Supart Userstory 4) As a User/Creator I want better, faster, and more intuitive editors for clothing, skin, tattoos, etc.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/3bf41c38/attachment.htm From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 14:07:19 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 23:07:19 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] tpv list Message-ID: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> ehm.... is there a plan to list SnowStorm too? on list or Linden Viewers paragraph (where SL2 and SnowGlobe already named) From esbee at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 8 14:17:54 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:17:54 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] tpv list In-Reply-To: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: Snowstorm isn't a Viewer, so there's no need to list it separately. Snowstorm is just the name of the team working on the official Second Life Viewer. Cheers, Esbee On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: > ehm.... is there a plan to list SnowStorm too? on list or Linden > Viewers paragraph (where SL2 and SnowGlobe already named) > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/f94092cb/attachment.htm From kf6kjg at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 14:24:12 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:24:12 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] 209178 dev script edit window Message-ID: Anybody else notice that the line numbers in the script editor are white-on-white? If you set focus somewhere else the script window grays (expected) revealing the fact that the line number text is white... Ricky Cron Stardust From kf6kjg at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 14:28:58 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:28:58 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] tpv list In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's the "Second Life development viewer" not the "Snowstorm viewer" right? Along with the "Second Life beta viewer" and the "Second Life viewer" - this last being the main "stable" edition. Ricky Cron Stardust On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson wrote: > Snowstorm isn't a Viewer, so there's no need to list it separately. > Snowstorm is just the name of the team working on the official Second Life > Viewer. > Cheers, > Esbee > > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: >> >> ehm.... is there a plan to list SnowStorm too? on list or Linden >> Viewers paragraph (where SL2 and SnowGlobe already named) >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From tom at streamsense.net Wed Sep 8 14:39:00 2010 From: tom at streamsense.net (Tom Grimshaw) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 22:39:00 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Dear Linden Lab, It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on my PC. Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. ~T From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 14:42:45 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 23:42:45 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... I told you so When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me that they want to control what viewer can connect and that this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > ?Dear Linden Lab, > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > my PC. > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > ~T > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From dillydobbs at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 14:45:24 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 16:45:24 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: It is there grid that you are connecting too with the viewer of your choice, so yea it is there business. As much as we all want to think that sl is open source, there is only parts of it that are. Im sure no one is going to stop you from using and open grid with emerald. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... > > I told you so > > When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me > that they want to control what viewer can connect and that > this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that > is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > > Dear Linden Lab, > > > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > > my PC. > > > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > > > ~T > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/3c5269a5/attachment-0001.htm From marc at inworlddesigns.com Wed Sep 8 14:46:06 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:46:06 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: Just switch to Phoenix its the projects new structure and project name. On another not they have every right to police who and what is connecting to their service. They also have every right to ban you for whatever reason they want without giving any reason at all. They are not policing your computer you have the choice to use other grids with your banned viewer they are not blocking you from using the application all together just blocking you from connecting to their service with it. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... > > I told you so > > When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me > that they want to control what viewer can connect and that > this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that > is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: >> ?Dear Linden Lab, >> >> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on >> my PC. >> >> Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden >> Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in >> fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and >> version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of >> clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID >> texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and >> the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. >> >> Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. >> >> ~T >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From Celierra at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 14:58:06 2010 From: Celierra at gmail.com (Celierra Darling) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:58:06 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: You can still use that software, but you'll just have to connect somewhere else for service if you do so. LL doesn't have to care only about direct effects on their own servers, and LL has the right to no longer trust viewers that identify themselves as "Emerald". Sure, you can get around it if you really want, but keep in mind that there's reasons why LL doesn't trust Emerald to connect to their servers. (Well, to be more precise, the original Emerald - there are Emerald forks on the TPV directory, which aren't affected AFAIK.) Celi On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > Dear Linden Lab, > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > my PC. > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > ~T > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/266b669d/attachment.htm From marc at inworlddesigns.com Wed Sep 8 14:59:41 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C8804F1.3070308@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C8804F1.3070308@streamsense.net> Message-ID: Sorry but it is their service and they do have that right. They can block you personally if they wanted to because they are providing you with a service and they don't have to. Most people forget that. They don't actually need any reason at all to stop providing you with service. If they chose to block certain viewers because they want to force people to use approved viewers then they have that right. I am not talking about what they should do I am talking about what they have the right to do. Honestly if they wanted to they could block any non-official viewer and require everyone use their viewer. its just like any service it is up to them on what they feel is beneficial to the service. As i said previously they are not preventing you from using that viewer they are just preventing you from using that viewer on THEIR service is all. There are tons of more open grids you can chose from to use your viewer if you chose too. I think most people are spoiled by the fact that they have been given a choice by linden labs. But thats how humanity works you give a little they want more because they always devalue what they have. Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make that point. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > ?On 08/09/2010 22:46, Marc Adored wrote: >> >> On another not they have every right to police who and what is >> connecting to their service > > No, given that the data that the viewer is sending is identical, they have > no right to do that whatsoever. ?The software I choose to use on my PC is > entirely my choice. > > I'll continue to use my own viewer that i've forked from Emerald a while > back - this change doesn't affect me - but it does reflect extremely poorly > on the lab and their ethics. > > ~T > > From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:02:46 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 00:02:46 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <20100909000246.b563e686.sythos@gmail.com> On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 22:39:00 +0100 Tom Grimshaw wrote: > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run > on my PC. > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on > Linden Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your > servers, in fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by > the channel and version provided in login, and this has been proven > by the number of clones that have popped up with their channel > renamed (and the ID texture changed of course). You cannot censor > Open Source software, and the fact that you're trying to makes you a > despicable organisation. it isn't a censorship, is a protection for residents anyway there are a dozen of non-linden viewers > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted.... is safer, for both resident and developers From tom at streamsense.net Wed Sep 8 15:03:15 2010 From: tom at streamsense.net (Tom Grimshaw) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:03:15 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <4C880823.9050105@streamsense.net> On 08/09/2010 22:58, Celierra Darling wrote: > there's reasons why LL doesn't trust Emerald to connect to their servers. My issue is that none of these reasons involve the way the viewer interacts with the LL Servers in any way. They made the decision based on the conduct of a few idiots (and there are always idiots in open source projects) - and not because of any real issue with the viewer itself. If the viewer was causing server issues or was enabling content theft, I would agree with this decision. ~T From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:04:34 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 00:04:34 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C8804F1.3070308@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <20100909000434.97c141ee.sythos@gmail.com> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 Marc Adored wrote: > Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at > linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of > Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a > flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make > that point. Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step" called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is only a lil actors show... From silverfox77 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:05:15 2010 From: silverfox77 at gmail.com (Fox) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:05:15 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: Dear Tom Grimshaw, You're right, LL has no business telling you what software you can install and run on your own computer, they definitely shouldn't try to censor OSS, and they would look pretty despicable if they were trying to do that. Good thing they aren't doing that at all here isn't it? What they can do, is tell you what software they'll ALLOW to connect to THEIR service :) You are still perfectly free to choose what viewer to use and connect with Emerald to any other grid that still allows it. They aren't policing anything but their own service, which they are most certianly within their rights to do. You're welcome :) ~F On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > Dear Linden Lab, > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > my PC. > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > ~T > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/338a13e1/attachment.htm From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:08:24 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 00:08:24 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880823.9050105@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C880823.9050105@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <20100909000824.d7742195.sythos@gmail.com> On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:03:15 +0100 Tom Grimshaw wrote: > My issue is that none of these reasons involve the way the viewer > interacts with the LL Servers in any way. They made the decision > based on the conduct of a few idiots (and there are always idiots in > open source projects) - and not because of any real issue with the > viewer itself. > If the viewer was causing server issues or was enabling content > theft, I would agree with this decision. partially right... discovered the "no good" side a team can choose if fix it or not, if somebody believe to be a god why him viewer is the most used is HIM fault... not LL one job of LL is provide a grid and hold businness safe, if works from residents/creators can be stolen with few clicks is a viewer problem and i PRETEND Linden do something to safe my businness... (and LL did it) From mike.dickson at hp.com Wed Sep 8 15:09:32 2010 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Mike Dickson) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:09:32 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> On 09/08/2010 05:42 PM, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I'm not happy to say it, but I can't help myself... > > I told you so > > When LL announced the TPV list, it was already clear to me > that they want to control what viewer can connect and that > this was the beginning of whitelist. Soon every viewer that > is not derived from their holy "2.0" will be blocked. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Tom Grimshaw wrote: >> Dear Linden Lab, >> >> It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on >> my PC. Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again. You can run whatever you like on your PC. And Linden Lab has every right to determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. And there's no indication and never has been that LL will block anything that's not 2.0. Their are some text only clients on the TPV that connect legitimately now. The Emerald team brought this on themselves. This kind of stuff has no business on a development list. Please take it elsewhere. Mike From marc at inworlddesigns.com Wed Sep 8 15:12:11 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:12:11 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <20100909000434.97c141ee.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C8804F1.3070308@streamsense.net> <20100909000434.97c141ee.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree and Phoenix seems to be coming only very well to and all the negativity behind emerald seems to be gone in the atmosphere of phoenix. I am pretty excited to see where it heads! Maybe this thread can be saved and put back on topic :D Tom I know your upset about them banning Emerald but it was in their right to do so there is no arguing that. I suggest that if you like emerald you should try phoenix it is the cleaned up spawn of emerald and has all the non-controversial developers from emerald working on it even LGG :D I am sure you will notices differences in the viewer but it has all the same features plus some really neat new ones. On-topic part is phoenix is shaping up to be a pretty decently organized opensource viewer should we focus on that now? :D On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: > On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 > Marc Adored wrote: > >> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at >> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of >> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a >> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make >> that point. > > Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step" > called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is > only a lil actors show... > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From tom at streamsense.net Wed Sep 8 15:21:26 2010 From: tom at streamsense.net (Tom Grimshaw) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> Message-ID: <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> On 08/09/2010 23:09, Mike Dickson wrote: > Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again. You can run > whatever you like on your PC. And Linden Lab has every right to > determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. Okay, let's just outline this properly. The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. The only thing they DO have a right to do is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP packets they want to accept. It's my right to use whichever software I want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban. Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger that might evolve. ~T From aleric.inglewood at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:22:23 2010 From: aleric.inglewood at gmail.com (Aleric Inglewood) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 00:22:23 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] This is my goodbye Message-ID: I've compared Linden Lab more often with an abusive husband. You take the beating and then believe the stories and hope that it all will become better. It's hard to leave such a husband usually, because you invested in that life and one lose a lot when one leaves. Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion that I've been a fool in the past. I've been mad, over and over and over again. I've told myself every time: this is unacceptable; but still I believed things would change for the better and came back... not really full force (in the end the number of patches that I actually wrote are a fraction of what I'd have done when I hadn't been beaten up on a regular basis). Today, still with a black eye of my homestead being taken offline, I have been kicked in the face by the hard cut off of snowglobe. Yes, it was inevitable that in the end all viewers would be derived from the official viewer (aka, 2.x), but NOT by force! It should have been as a result of new features. Open source should be the evolution of ideas (and code) and not being enforced and dictated. Slowly I have began to realize that Linden Lab is a control freak. They try to control EVERYTHING, from what you do in-world to the what name your viewer can have, or what you run on your PC to connect to their servers. They have never listened to the users before making important decisions (and seldom afterwards) and I have seen no recent change in that. I do think that the snowstorm change was a good change, but in the end it is just abuse of open source volunteers by giving them the exact same treatment as paid Linden Lab employees: all the hard work, *exactly* following the rules dictated by Linden Lab but no room to do it your way. No voice in any decision making, and certainly no room to experience, or freedom. Open source, however, is about FREEDOM: The freedom to CHANGE the code and to USE it as you see fit. The Best Ideas then survive as a result of "evolution". Bad ideas aren't used, popular ideas are copied by everyone. Linden Lab makes this natural process impossible. The only thing that is left is working for a company, without freedom, without a vote and without being paid. I'm sorry that this how they run their business. I'm a lot more sorry that I saw too late that I really shouldn't volunteer to work for them under those conditions. THIIS NOT OPEN SOURCE For now I have joined "imprudence" (http://imprudenceviewer.org/). This is a true open source project. Surely Linden Lab can still block it from their servers, and they WILL do so when they start to disallow 1.23, but at least I won't be working anymore for them. Patches contributed to Imprudence will be pure GPL and not fall under the Contribution Agreement. Because this project is really, purely GPL it will be possible to use OTHER GPL-ed code, from other third party viewers for example, or anywhere else from the net. THAT is what open source is about. I'm pleased to have noticed that all the important open source people that I have learned to appreciate and respect are already there. If you are not, please join us! This doesn't have to a goodbye: I hope to see you join us on the other side! Thank you for your time, Aleric Inglewood. PS CC to imprudence mailinglist From gcanaday at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:23:18 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:23:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Chat issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1283984598.2372.1.camel@glen-desktop> Try editing a notecard and type past the edge. I've only seen it once and im not in a position where I can report it atm, but it could be related to what you're seeing. In the notecard I get screwed up text. --GC On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 20:15 +0100, Talia Tokugawa wrote: > Hey, is this just me? > In Snowstorm every so often in chat the last character on a line of > text is replaced by a space. > Specific example here.. > > > What I see is > [12:06] **** Nerd: got my vot > > > everyone else sees > [12:06] **** Nerd: got my vote > > > I can also copy the line of text and paste it and it will be "vote" > not "vot". It's literally just what I see that's wrong. > Tal > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From labrat.hb at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:27:06 2010 From: labrat.hb at gmail.com (Harold Brown) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 15:27:06 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C8804F1.3070308@streamsense.net> <20100909000434.97c141ee.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: In regards to Phoenix vs Emerald. The ONLY things Phoenix removed from the client that made them TPV compliant was the EMKDU.dll file (as well as removing the ability to use the LLKDU.dll) The gist of this seeming to be that allowing a Third Party client the ability to use LLKDU.dll means that client is no longer TPV compliant. Interesting enough the only valid arguement for the removal is the fact that KDU is a closed source binary and the client is GPL. That arguement is, of course, only valid for viewer code earlier than Snowstorm as the code license was changed to LGPL. Honestly with the impending removal of Snowglobe from the Linden Lab version control repositories, this all reeks of ways to force people to the new Viewer 2.x interface. One which I personally can not use for any extended lengths of time as it just doesn't flow naturally to me as a User Interface. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Marc Adored wrote: > I agree and Phoenix seems to be coming only very well to and all the > negativity behind emerald seems to be gone in the atmosphere of > phoenix. I am pretty excited to see where it heads! Maybe this thread > can be saved and put back on topic :D > > Tom I know your upset about them banning Emerald but it was in their > right to do so there is no arguing that. I suggest that if you like > emerald you should try phoenix it is the cleaned up spawn of emerald > and has all the non-controversial developers from emerald working on > it even LGG :D I am sure you will notices differences in the viewer > but it has all the same features plus some really neat new ones. > > On-topic part is phoenix is shaping up to be a pretty decently > organized opensource viewer should we focus on that now? :D > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: >> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 >> Marc Adored wrote: >> >>> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at >>> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of >>> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a >>> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make >>> that point. >> >> Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step" >> called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is >> only a lil actors show... >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From marc at inworlddesigns.com Wed Sep 8 15:31:44 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:31:44 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> Message-ID: > Okay, let's just outline this properly. > > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow > to connect to their SERVICE. ?The only thing they DO have a right to do > is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP > packets they want to accept. And if they chose to determine what packets they wish to accept by the viewer you are using it is there right. Just like that could by al rights say only Windows users are allowed to use their service. It is THEIR right to chose and YOUR privilage to use their service. > It's my right to use whichever software I > want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the > legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their > version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a > right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban. > They actually do have EVERY right to threaten people with account bans if they do not follow the terms of service or try to bypass any quality control measures they take. > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. ?They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the > software itself, ?they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. You may be right about its current state but a few times in the past it it has proven to be unsafe for secondlifes user base to use it and the dev team that was on it could not be trusted to not allow those things to happen again. But this is going into the REASON why the banned it which is irrelevant to the fact that they DID ban it. Like I said regardless of the "morals" behind it they have every right to ban whatever for whatever they want it is their service. Legally they have obligations to their user base. Normally this wouldn't apply to third party products but they did set a standard for third party products so they have to uphold that standard or they me be legally obligated for any damage a third party application they endorse may cause. From malachi at tamzap.com Wed Sep 8 15:34:32 2010 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:34:32 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> Message-ID: so the software "Emerald" has no flaws that effect second life in any way you say? attempted DDoSing a website from the client exposing user data to the world(then hiding it in encryption that is sent only to the creators) those are goodies that everyone wants to be a part of i take it. i mean thats what you are saying. perhaps you need to go read the TOS mate. you know that thing that you clicked "I AGREE" to when you logged in. LINDEN LAB reserves the right to revoke your access to the second life servers at anytime for any reason (or for no reason at all) with or without notice. no one cares one way or another which clients you install. just like no one cares what other stuff you have on your computer(except the emerald devs) the only thing lindens care about is the fact that they asked the developers to remove the bull s#$T from the client that was in violation to their rules. the devs "REFUSED" <---- do you even understand that word? linden lab blocks the client that is in obvious violation of the TOS and state that they will BAN/terminate your access to second life if you bypass that block on the software. now.... lets have a peek at this lets say you get hash banned from second life. and you change your ip and mac address. and log into sl if they find out that it is you.... what happens? THEY BAN YOU AGAIN. are you saying they dont have the right to ban you? if so log out of sl and log into open sim. now. that being said i think that if they are going to block emerald and obviously ban key creators from second life they NEED TO.....(AND WOULD A LINDEN PLEASE READ THIS MESSAGE) ban all accounts that those people have. instead of just allowing them to generate 10000000 alts with the last name MODULARSYSTEMS(wait they already have) and logging in as much as they want. now. im going back to my snowstorm. could we please move the topic to something that has relevance to what this group is called? On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:21:26 -0400, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > On 08/09/2010 23:09, Mike Dickson wrote: >> Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again. You can run >> whatever you like on your PC. And Linden Lab has every right to >> determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. > > Okay, let's just outline this properly. > > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow > to connect to their SERVICE. The only thing they DO have a right to do > is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP > packets they want to accept. It's my right to use whichever software I > want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the > legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their > version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a > right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban. > > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the > software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. > > ~T > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:38:35 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 00:38:35 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <20100909003835.dbc43b47.sythos@gmail.com> On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100 Tom Grimshaw wrote: > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will > allow to connect to their SERVICE. are you joking? is THEIR service, on THEIR servers, done with THEIR software..... > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with > the software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. not only with team, but with code of emerald viewer too, way to copybot others creations, private data "statistically collected" and some licenses violations... From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Wed Sep 8 16:48:30 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 19:48:30 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com>, <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net>, , <4C88099C.6010508@hp.com>, <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net>, Message-ID: From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com To: tom at streamsense.net Subject: RE: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 19:46:57 -0400 Actually, There WAS a danger. Emerald devs were openly collecting personal information. There were actively using the program to perform attacks on people. That wasn't politics, or perception. that was fact. If LL didn't act, they could be legally responsible. As it is, Emerald became a criminal matter, and there is a very real possibility that legal charges will be filed on some of the devs. It would have been recklessly negligent if LL didn't block Emerald. They have the legal and moral right and responsibility to do so. There's LOTS of legal precedents that would make LL liable if they failed to act. IMVU, AOL, Yahoo, for example all wound up restricting what can connect to their services for much the same reasons. I'm sorry you're upset that they blocked emerald. But the way you act takes any sympathy I might have had away. And frankly, their arrogance, disregard for anyone but themselves, and lack of maturity was their undoing. If they lived in my county, they would already have been arrested by our cybercrimes unit. I don't know if the ISP hosting the servers that were attacked will press the issue, but if they do, then there will be consequences for the Emerald team. I personally, hope that ISP does. If you really liked Emerald's better features so much, Phoenix seems to have the devs from emerald that had the most integrity and allot of real talent. Though I cannot run it, many people can and it shows signs it will be better then Emerald was. Please accept that Emerald is gone, and that the people responsible for Emeralds undoing were the Emerald's team themselves. Erin > Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100 > From: tom at streamsense.net > To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. > > On 08/09/2010 23:09, Mike Dickson wrote: > > Oh geez. Do we really have to go through this again. You can run > > whatever you like on your PC. And Linden Lab has every right to > > determine what software they will allow to connect to their SERVICE. > > Okay, let's just outline this properly. > > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will allow > to connect to their SERVICE. The only thing they DO have a right to do > is to determine which TCP connections they want to accept and which UDP > packets they want to accept. It's my right to use whichever software I > want to generate those packets. As such, I accept that they have the > legal right to block logins from clients containing "Emerald" in their > version string - but not a moral right. And they certainly do not have a > right to threaten people with account bans if they "bypass" the ban. > > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with the > software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. > > ~T > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/8d74f6d9/attachment.htm From dave at meadowlakearts.com Wed Sep 8 16:54:59 2010 From: dave at meadowlakearts.com (Dave Booth) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:54:59 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <4C882253.5000504@meadowlakearts.com> On 9/8/2010 16:39, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > Dear Linden Lab, > > It's absolutely none of your business what software I choose to run on > my PC. > > Blocking emerald is a step of pure arrogance - and ignorance - on Linden > Lab's behalf - it's not having an adverse effect on your servers, in > fact THE ONLY WAY you can tell i'm runing Emerald is by the channel and > version provided in login, and this has been proven by the number of > clones that have popped up with their channel renamed (and the ID > texture changed of course). You cannot censor Open Source software, and > the fact that you're trying to makes you a despicable organisation. > > Stop policing my computer. I will decide what viewer I use, thank you. > > ~T > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > ye gods, enough with the drama. We expect it on forums and blogs but on THIS list??? just grow a pair. Bottom line, Emerald devs screwed up and violated TPV, they are gone and so is their malware-infected viewer. LL did exactly what any responsible org would do and nixed 'em. Done. Over. END. Now either get over it and pick an alternative viewer or dont let the door hit your posterior on the way out, ok? From djshag at hotmail.com Wed Sep 8 16:57:50 2010 From: djshag at hotmail.com (Patnad Babii) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 19:57:50 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <20100909003835.dbc43b47.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com><4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net><4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> <20100909003835.dbc43b47.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am personnally VERY PROUD of what LL did with this issue, i would have expected a faster response but we can't blame them too much since it happened over a weekend. What the folks at Emerald did was plain wrong, they have no rights to use your computer to run their attacks. For all we know, they may have been doing that in the past at a smaller scale we'll never know. I strongly believe that LL should even review some part of the code in the viewers they propose as 3rd party viewer and they should have a team dedicated to monitor all of them in case this ever happen again. For my part, ill stay away from those viewer with the flavor of emerald, I cannot even trust the new people they got. There might be still people with bad intention behind it but that is my own opinion. I even believe that the people who were behind those attacks should be procecuted as it is prescribed by the law in the United States. Peoples should be making a class action against Modular systems, all user of Emerald could join it since they all were victims and they were forced to participate in a collective attack against one or many websites / service on the internet. -----Message d'origine----- From: AltairSythosMemo Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:38 PM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:21:26 +0100 Tom Grimshaw wrote: > The lab DO NOT have any right to determine what software they will > allow to connect to their SERVICE. are you joking? is THEIR service, on THEIR servers, done with THEIR software..... > Linden Lab have blocked Emerald due to a POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT with > their dev team. They haven't blocked it because of any fault with > the software itself, they're not protecting anyone - they're taking > pre-emptive action against a project because of some percieved danger > that might evolve. not only with team, but with code of emerald viewer too, way to copybot others creations, private data "statistically collected" and some licenses violations... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com Wed Sep 8 18:09:59 2010 From: snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com (Maya Remblai) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:09:59 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com><4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net><4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> <20100909003835.dbc43b47.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8833E7.6090703@dragonkeepcreations.com> Oh for crying out loud...Emerald DID cause a DDoS attack, which is a CRIME. It also collected information about users that it shouldn't have. Those are facts that LL is aware of. It's a dangerous piece of software and has no right to connect to the grid now. I used to use Emerald, and not many people advocated it more than me, but now I won't touch it because I know it's dangerous. LL did the right thing, and I'm impressed that they had the guts to do it at all. There was nothing personal or political about it. I do hope that LL will learn from the drama though, and get their act together with viewer work in general. End of story. Go find another TPV and get on when your life. Most TPVs have the same feature set as Emerald now anyway, like temp uploads and useful radar. Maya From labrat.hb at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 17:33:11 2010 From: labrat.hb at gmail.com (Harold Brown) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:33:11 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <4C8833E7.6090703@dragonkeepcreations.com> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C88099C.6010508@hp.com> <4C880C66.3000606@streamsense.net> <20100909003835.dbc43b47.sythos@gmail.com> <4C8833E7.6090703@dragonkeepcreations.com> Message-ID: ANY Secondlife Viewer could be used for the exact same type of DDoS attack. Even more so the 2.0 viewers with Media on a Prim. The DDoS was from a webpage with hidden images being called from another site. Not from the clients being used as a Bot network. In this case it just happened to be the Viewer login screen. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Maya Remblai wrote: > ?Oh for crying out loud...Emerald DID cause a DDoS attack, which is a > CRIME. It also collected information about users that it shouldn't have. > Those are facts that LL is aware of. It's a dangerous piece of software > and has no right to connect to the grid now. I used to use Emerald, and > not many people advocated it more than me, but now I won't touch it > because I know it's dangerous. LL did the right thing, and I'm impressed > that they had the guts to do it at all. There was nothing personal or > political about it. I do hope that LL will learn from the drama though, > and get their act together with viewer work in general. > > End of story. Go find another TPV and get on when your life. Most TPVs > have the same feature set as Emerald now anyway, like temp uploads and > useful radar. > > Maya > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From sheet.spotter at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 18:49:15 2010 From: sheet.spotter at gmail.com (Sheet Spotter) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 20:49:15 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiler optimizations on Viewer and LLKDU Message-ID: <53B6DD8B6D26463BB4FBE357B8BCC931@kenb> 1. Are there any plans to enable higher levels of compiler optimizations for the viewer? For example, Streaming SIMD Extensions (SSE, SSE2, and SSE3) are not enabled. SSE was introduced in Pentium III processors in 1999. SSE was first added to AMD processors in the Athlon XP and Duron, both in 2001. The minimum requirements for the viewer are stated as: "800 MHz Pentium III or Athlon, or better". http://secondlife.com/support/system-requirements/ 2. Also, would the LLKDU library benefit from higher levels of compiler optimizations? Anyone can compile the viewer with higher levels of optimization using the publicly available source code. However, the source code for the LLKDU library is not publicly available. Only LL could compile LLKDU with higher levels of optimization. 3. Would LL consider providing a compiled version of the LLKDU library with higher levels of optimization? Taking advantage of higher levels of compiler optimization may improve the experience for people running low to mid range equipment. My interest is in improving the experience for residents using lower grade equipment, not in eliminating those residents. I regularly run the viewer on an older model Pentium 4. Sheet Spotter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/dfb37cb2/attachment-0001.htm From zjshen14 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 20:16:11 2010 From: zjshen14 at gmail.com (Zhijie Shen) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 11:16:11 +0800 Subject: [opensource-dev] Problem in Getting Library "libcurl-cares.so" to Compile SL Viewer Message-ID: Hi everyone, When I use apt-get to acquire "libcurl4-cares-dev" on Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. I meet a the dependency bug, which is reported as follows: " libcurl3-cares: Depends: libssl0.9.8 (>=0.9.8m-1) but 0.9.8k-7ubuntu8 is to be installed " Anybody has met the same problem? Any idea to solve the problem? Regards, Zhijie Shen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/2ec58d46/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 8 22:05:21 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:05:21 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 09/08/2010 Message-ID: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2010 Also available here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive *=== General Notes ===* * Don't forget to grab tasks from the Sprint Backlog and update your time remaining on that task each day! * Merge Monkey of the Day: Merov *===Team Status===* *====Aimee====* OOO * * * ====Tofu==== PAST * More integrations * VWR-20756 / llTextBox support FUTURE * VWR-20756 / llTextBox support IMPEDIMENTS * these progress reports I'm writing aren't making it out to the public summary for some reason. I'm busy, honest! ====Oz==== PAST * Sent out Snowglobe wind-down plan * Updated Snowstorm dashboard in new Jira (broken - see Impediments) * Many more wiki updates (getting there) FUTURE * more wiki updates * Update submission workflow descriptions (see Impediments) IMPEDIMENTS * Need clarification on how Snowstorm project is to be used ====Merov==== PAST * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: Perf tracking ** Rearchitectured and simplified LLMetricPerformanceTester ** More documentation done LLMetricPerformanceTester and documented it ** Built but didn't commit yet * Last Snowglobe OH and follow up FUTURE * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: Finish the Perf tracking work and publish wiki about it, get baseline data for KDU and Openjpeg * VWR-22759 : Chat Translator: Check with Esbee where we stand wrt design review IMPEDIMENTS * Kakadu license upgrade ====Q==== OOO ====Esbee==== PAST * Responded to a good chunk of Resident feedback (still _LOTS_ to get through) * Accessibility meeting with Orange Planer and LordGregGreg * Worked on UI customization sketches and blog post * Backlog grooming * Send feedback to PE on detachable sidebars * Review double-click to TP * Catch up with Merov on VWR-22759 FUTURE * Schedule meeting with Orange, Gentle, and LordGregGreg for next week. * Share UI customization notes and sketches with Rhett from XD team * Prepare draft of Jira VWR workflow proposal and discuss w/Q * Move Snowstorm Backlog to Jira IMPEDIMENTS * Not receiving Tofu's email to mailing list ====Paul==== PAST *VWR-22346 (Appearance > 'Wearing' tab: Add Take off / Detach function to the gear menu) **In progress. ~ 2 hours *Very unproductive day - spent most time building and setting up FUTURE * VWR-22346 (Appearance > 'Wearing' tab: Add Take off / Detach function to the gear menu) IMPEDIMENTS *none ====Andrew==== PAST *went through all tickets assigned to me - found 3 that were reopened b/c fix didn't make it into development right away, but fixes are there now. **will close in new jira * Bug VWR-22008 (People you called via Adhoc are not shown in Recent tab). **fixed consistent with recent for p2p, but exchange in comments suggests a different way may be needed. Asked Andrey, will either commit fix or change it, in which case estimate 4-5h. *Major bug VWR-22125 (Mini-inspector floater doesn't appear after click on 'i' icon in IM or Nearby chat window). **Investigated. 3-4h. *played with new jira FUTURE * VWR-22125 (Mini-inspector floater doesn't appear after click on 'i' icon in IM or Nearby chat window). * VWR-22008 (People you called via Adhoc are not shown in Recent tab) IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Vadim==== PAST *reviewed Aimee's fix *fixed Paul's build *played with new jira. Looks like VWR workflow is unchanged, and glitchy - impossible to close VWR-20699 as Misfiled for example. FUTURE *fresh bugs and small tasks for detachable tabs IMPEDIMENTS * where should viewer bugs go? VWR or STORM? (Answer: VWR - Esbee) * workflow in VWR is broken. Will investigate today. (Anything in particular that's broken? - Esbee) ====Sergey==== OOO - Vacation ====Andrey==== PAST * smoke test against r209053, see shared spreadsheet * VWR-20694 test per request. Found 7 issues, but didn't report them yet: ** empty space appears in the top of Home panel on redocking ** hard to resize undocked panel by height/width, need to place mouse pointer very precisely on bottom/right side of undocked panel ** there should be minimal width/height for undocked panels. for Appearance SP at least, some buttons overlap other controls when minimum width is set ** verb buttons disappear for profile SPs on minimize/restore (Person, Group, Object) ** unable to share an item when My Inventory SP is undocked, docked IM window hides ** camera view angle resets when do Edit Outfit panel dock/undock ** sometimes on restore undocked panel appears behind of stack of minimized panels * bunch of issues non-related to side panels docking/undocking FUTURE * file issues to GH IMPEDIMENTS * jira workflow ====Anya==== PAST *played with new jira *added link to Smoke test results to wiki *server testing - permissions followup *workflow followup FUTURE *new jira *find workflow answers about filing bugs and managing VWR issues. (Sue/Bambers) *detachable sidebar & bottom bar review IMPEDIMENTS *see Vadim's quesitons * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100908/bd0c579c/attachment-0001.htm From zjshen14 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 22:15:21 2010 From: zjshen14 at gmail.com (Zhijie Shen) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:15:21 +0800 Subject: [opensource-dev] Fwd: Problem in Getting Library "libcurl-cares.so" to Compile SL Viewer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now I've got around the problem but another comes as follows: " libcurl3-cares: Depends: libkrb53 (>=1.6.dfsg.2) but it is not installable " The dependency seems buggy since the libkrb5-3 is used instead of libkrb53 in ubuntu. The bug is also mentioned in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/root-system/+bug/462059. Is there any solution to deal with this? Regards, Zhijie Shen ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Zhijie Shen Date: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:16 AM Subject: Problem in Getting Library "libcurl-cares.so" to Compile SL Viewer To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Hi everyone, When I use apt-get to acquire "libcurl4-cares-dev" on Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. I meet a the dependency bug, which is reported as follows: " libcurl3-cares: Depends: libssl0.9.8 (>=0.9.8m-1) but 0.9.8k-7ubuntu8 is to be installed " Anybody has met the same problem? Any idea to solve the problem? Regards, Zhijie Shen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/4a36d92c/attachment.htm From sythos at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 22:59:50 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Francesco Rabbi) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 07:59:50 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] [POLICY] Banning TPV not on the TPV list In-Reply-To: <1283989503.28269.7.camel@nostromo> References: <1283989503.28269.7.camel@nostromo> Message-ID: <-5775365832052285643@unknownmsgid> I understand, but read my example (and is ONLY an example, not related to Cool) A developer fit hiddenly code malicious inside viewer, a resident will be damaged by this code and toss him law guy to Linden why damage happened on Linden grid, if Linden don't have data about Viewer creator how can solve the problem? Pay using Linden funds? -- Sent by iPhone Il giorno 09/set/2010, alle ore 01:45, "Robert \"Exile In Paradise\" Murphey" ha scritto: > Hello Altair! > I wanted to respond to a comment you made on the opensource-dev list. > > You said "imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted...." > > I would have to disagree, because the creator of Cool VL Viewer has > good reasons not to be listed there, namely the Linden requirement > for personal information can be viewed as a violation of French > privacy laws which prevent collection and use of personal information > in certain situations. > > Since I use Cool VL viewer, I would hate to see it banned because > a French citizen expects LL to obey the law as much as LL expects > citizens to. > > -- > Robert Murphey > "Anyone attempting to generate random numbers by deterministic > means is, of course, living in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann > From rip.rieko at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 01:16:07 2010 From: rip.rieko at gmail.com (rip.rieko at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 08:16:07 +0000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0016e6570edcfdfced048fcf3d5c@google.com> The Emerald login screen is still under the control of the same people right now. These people are recently banned from SL and more than likely holding personal vendettas. Of course it needs to be blocked theres a genuine threat there. Maybe not in the main code of the viewer but definately on the login screen. If LL didn't act and something happened to people using Emerald the law suites would be heading the way of the real corporation with real money and a duty to protect it's customers. On , Harold Brown wrote: > ANY Secondlife Viewer could be used for the exact same type of DDoS > attack. Even more so the 2.0 viewers with Media on a Prim. > The DDoS was from a webpage with hidden images being called from > another site. Not from the clients being used as a Bot network. In > this case it just happened to be the Viewer login screen. > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Maya Remblai > snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote: > > Oh for crying out loud...Emerald DID cause a DDoS attack, which is a > > CRIME. It also collected information about users that it shouldn't have. > > Those are facts that LL is aware of. It's a dangerous piece of software > > and has no right to connect to the grid now. I used to use Emerald, and > > not many people advocated it more than me, but now I won't touch it > > because I know it's dangerous. LL did the right thing, and I'm impressed > > that they had the guts to do it at all. There was nothing personal or > > political about it. I do hope that LL will learn from the drama though, > > and get their act together with viewer work in general. > > > > End of story. Go find another TPV and get on when your life. Most TPVs > > have the same feature set as Emerald now anyway, like temp uploads and > > useful radar. > > > > Maya > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/2f7c58fe/attachment.htm From tano.toll at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 01:38:46 2010 From: tano.toll at gmail.com (Tano Toll) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:38:46 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <4C8804F1.3070308@streamsense.net> <20100909000434.97c141ee.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: "> The gist of this seeming to be that allowing a Third Party client the > ability to use LLKDU.dll means that client is no longer TPV compliant." Interestingly enough, the Emergence viewer (published just before Phoenix) offers to install LLKDU.dll (i think it does so by downloading the official viewer and extracting the dll file), yet, is also listed in the TPVD : "Emergence Viewer 7 Sep 2010" It did ask me while installing, the application directory indeed holds llkdu.dll, the release notes actually mention it: "Changes from version 1.5.0.0 to 1.5.0.1 Dictionaries now downloaded dynamicly again Fixed bug in login page and in clothing protection (showing as emergence instead of emerald) *llkdu added to installer and now working in viewer* User agent refined Installer made red :D and smaller" So, i'm at least confused about this EMKDU and LLKDU legal status, and even more why not only EMKDU as well as LLKDU was used as argument against Emerald, i.e. Emerald (before the blow up) was requested also not to use LLKDU. I quote Aradella Steadham: "Linden Lab has made demands of the team that are impossible to meet. Among the demands not listed publicly elsewhere was to publicly release an RC without any ability to load the emkdu or llkdu files. This was do-able. The final demand was to 'delete' 3 key members of our team. While making this demand, Linden Lab was quite aware that this was effectively the guillotine to the project." Last not least, i think LL has acted pretty reasonable, identified the 3 brats in the Emerald team succesfully, also was very rapid in accepting BOTH Phoenix and Emergence in the TPVD. So rumours about 'viewer 2 only' and 'linden banning emerald because it is too succesful' seem to be plain wrong in my view. regards, and sorry for bothering with offtopic issues, TT 2010/9/9 Harold Brown > In regards to Phoenix vs Emerald. The ONLY things Phoenix removed > from the client that made them TPV compliant was the EMKDU.dll file > (as well as removing the ability to use the LLKDU.dll) > > The gist of this seeming to be that allowing a Third Party client the > ability to use LLKDU.dll means that client is no longer TPV compliant. > > Interesting enough the only valid arguement for the removal is the > fact that KDU is a closed source binary and the client is GPL. That > arguement is, of course, only valid for viewer code earlier than > Snowstorm as the code license was changed to LGPL. > > Honestly with the impending removal of Snowglobe from the Linden Lab > version control repositories, this all reeks of ways to force people > to the new Viewer 2.x interface. One which I personally can not use > for any extended lengths of time as it just doesn't flow naturally to > me as a User Interface. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Marc Adored > wrote: > > I agree and Phoenix seems to be coming only very well to and all the > > negativity behind emerald seems to be gone in the atmosphere of > > phoenix. I am pretty excited to see where it heads! Maybe this thread > > can be saved and put back on topic :D > > > > Tom I know your upset about them banning Emerald but it was in their > > right to do so there is no arguing that. I suggest that if you like > > emerald you should try phoenix it is the cleaned up spawn of emerald > > and has all the non-controversial developers from emerald working on > > it even LGG :D I am sure you will notices differences in the viewer > > but it has all the same features plus some really neat new ones. > > > > On-topic part is phoenix is shaping up to be a pretty decently > > organized opensource viewer should we focus on that now? :D > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: > >> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:59:41 -0400 > >> Marc Adored wrote: > >> > >>> Emerald is a perfect example of that. Everyone is upset and mad at > >>> linden for banning Emerald but no body cared what the developers of > >>> Emerald were doing before it effected them directly. I wont go into a > >>> flame war over one of my favorite viewers but I just wanted to make > >>> that point. > >> > >> Emerald have good reason to be blacklisted, there is the "next step" > >> called phoenix, cleaned by "bad code" and "bad elements", all other is > >> only a lil actors show... > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/d85cfe68/attachment.htm From Anders at Arnholm.se Thu Sep 9 03:30:56 2010 From: Anders at Arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 12:30:56 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <20100909000246.b563e686.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <20100909000246.b563e686.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100909103056.GC19841@arnholm.se> On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 12:02:46AM +0200, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted.... > is safer, for both resident and developers It's also safer to put all humans in a straight jacket, that would also probaly solve most current enviroment problems. The downside does however still make most realise the down sides of this is way bigger that the gains. Most TPV's contains fixes that make them safer that the LL viewer, Linden have so far had a to slow acceptance of user fixes.Or for some reason not let them in. The new Snowstorm hopefulle helps this. There are still however much smell in the code, not more and in someplaces less that most big projects. But it's there all projects get them. And why the heck did i get my self involved again... I need my non coding time... / Balp -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From makosoft at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 04:15:24 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 12:15:24 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On 9/8/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > * Remove viewer-external from hg.secondlife.com Am I right in thinking there's no revision history in here that isn't available in more useful and fine-grained form in viewer-external? > * Take down the Snowglobe subversion repository That's going to be kinda obnoxious, because it means non-Linden Labs developers won't be able to look back at what was changed in Snowglobe, when and why. There will still be mainstream 1.23-based viewers by then unless Linden Labs does something incredibly brilliant or something incredibly stupid, and they'll still have a use for the Snowglobe version control history. From babytje_ab at live.com Thu Sep 9 04:34:32 2010 From: babytje_ab at live.com (Alexandrea Fride) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:34:32 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Incomming group/im Toasts In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: As a user i would like to disable incoming group/im toasts from showing up in viewer 2, especially if a user is in busy groups this can be pretty annoyingly i made a jira http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22915 and included a patch that easly can do it the path isent big so it could be done easly (or modifyd to use LL coding standards if someone whants to check that patch) Greetings Alexandrea Fride From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Thu Sep 9 05:35:23 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:35:23 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Incomming group/im Toasts In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <000301cb501b$793fe240$6bbfa6c0$@net> This looks good to me and very easily implemented. I have only one suggestion though if someone is using multiple accounts on a system it might be best to move the settings to steeing_per_account.xml. Me personaly I would be using this setting as im currently using a 'tweek' that kills those toasts and this would be a better option. -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Alexandrea Fride Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 7:35 AM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: [opensource-dev] Incomming group/im Toasts As a user i would like to disable incoming group/im toasts from showing up in viewer 2, especially if a user is in busy groups this can be pretty annoyingly i made a jira http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22915 and included a patch that easly can do it the path isent big so it could be done easly (or modifyd to use LL coding standards if someone whants to check that patch) Greetings Alexandrea Fride _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3123 - Release Date: 09/08/10 13:41:00 From tofu at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 9 05:48:23 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:48:23 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiler optimizations on Viewer and LLKDU In-Reply-To: <53B6DD8B6D26463BB4FBE357B8BCC931@kenb> References: <53B6DD8B6D26463BB4FBE357B8BCC931@kenb> Message-ID: <4C88D797.3060308@lindenlab.com> Sheet Spotter wrote: > 1. Are there any plans to enable higher levels of compiler optimizations for > the viewer? Yup! There are a wad of changes like this in the dev pipeline, but we want to prove the heck out of them (they are still considered experimental and somewhat intertwined with some other, even-more-experimental changes). > 2. Also, would the LLKDU library benefit from higher levels of compiler > optimizations? Probably not the version we're using right now. Cheers, -tofu From malachi at tamzap.com Thu Sep 9 06:28:06 2010 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:28:06 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <20100909103056.GC19841@arnholm.se> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <20100909000246.b563e686.sythos@gmail.com> <20100909103056.GC19841@arnholm.se> Message-ID: On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 06:30:56 -0400, Anders Arnholm wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 12:02:46AM +0200, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: >> imho *ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted.... >> is safer, for both resident and developers > > It's also safer to put all humans in a straight jacket, that would also > probaly solve most current enviroment problems. The downside does > however still make most realise the down sides of this is way bigger > that the gains. or we could do what that one episode of the outer limits called stasis where they take and split the population of the world into 3 groups. alphas betas and elites. then every 72 hours the alphas and betas switch on a cryogenic freeze. half the population sleep while the other half run about working and what not. and the elite stay away all the time. Lindens are the elite i suppose. now if we can just get the system to let only half of the people log in for 3 days. and the other half stay offline. and alternate. we would experience much less lag i think lol > Most TPV's contains fixes that make them safer that the LL viewer, > Linden have so far had a to slow acceptance of user fixes.Or for some > reason not let them in. The new Snowstorm hopefulle helps this. > > There are still however much smell in the code, not more and in > someplaces less that most big projects. But it's there all projects get > them. > > And why the heck did i get my self involved again... I need my non > coding time... > > / Balp -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From sldev at free.fr Thu Sep 9 07:20:33 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:20:33 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] This is my goodbye In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100909162033.de75c42e.sldev@free.fr> On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 00:22:23 +0200, Aleric Inglewood wrote: > I've compared Linden Lab more often with an abusive husband. > You take the beating and then believe the stories and hope that > it all will become better. It's hard to leave such a husband usually, > because you invested in that life and one lose a lot when one > leaves. > > Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion that I've been a fool > in the past. I've been mad, over and over and over again. I've > told myself every time: this is unacceptable; but still I believed > things would change for the better and came back... not really > full force (in the end the number of patches that I actually > wrote are a fraction of what I'd have done when I hadn't been > beaten up on a regular basis). > > Today, still with a black eye of my homestead being taken offline, > I have been kicked in the face by the hard cut off of snowglobe. > Yes, it was inevitable that in the end all viewers would be derived > from the official viewer (aka, 2.x), but NOT by force! It should have > been as a result of new features. Open source should be the > evolution of ideas (and code) and not being enforced and dictated. > > Slowly I have began to realize that Linden Lab is a control freak. > They try to control EVERYTHING, from what you do in-world to the > what name your viewer can have, or what you run on your PC to > connect to their servers. You know what ?... I got the same *exact* feelings... But I'm the kind of guy to fight to the very last possible extremity, and I won't give up before there is no more hope. My last hope is that, hopefully before it is too late for Linden Lab, they will realize that they screwed up their chances by being an arrogant, autistic, stubborn, greedy, thankless group of soon to be loosers... Then they will perhaps *listen* to their *customers* and do the right things, radically changing their behaviour and suicidal policy. SL has been on the down slope for over two years already, its active users base shrinking every month. It would be time they wake up before the down slope becomes a cliff and they take a step too far... It's not hard... all they have to do is to remember their initial motto and actually apply it to their actions: "Your World, Your Imagination"... > They have never listened to the users before making important > decisions (and seldom afterwards) and I have seen no recent change > in that. I do think that the snowstorm change was a good change, but > in the end it is just abuse of open source volunteers by giving them > the exact same treatment as paid Linden Lab employees: all > the hard work, *exactly* following the rules dictated by Linden > Lab but no room to do it your way. No voice in any decision > making, and certainly no room to experience, or freedom. > > Open source, however, is about FREEDOM: The freedom to > CHANGE the code and to USE it as you see fit. The Best Ideas > then survive as a result of "evolution". Bad ideas aren't used, > popular ideas are copied by everyone. Linden Lab makes > this natural process impossible. The only thing that is left > is working for a company, without freedom, without a vote > and without being paid. > > I'm sorry that this how they run their business. I'm a lot > more sorry that I saw too late that I really shouldn't volunteer > to work for them under those conditions. > > THIIS NOT OPEN SOURCE 150% agreed, and thus why, like almost all TPV developers, I will keep developing code for my own viewer and will not help LL improving theirs... When they will actually run the project as a true, Open Source one, then I'll change my mind. > For now I have joined "imprudence" (http://imprudenceviewer.org/). > This is a true open source project. Surely Linden Lab can still > block it from their servers, and they WILL do so when they start > to disallow 1.23, I doubt it... They already have the gun on the temple, but pulling off the plug on v1.23/SG1-based TPVs would be like pulling the trigger of the gun. No, they will just block their official builds of v1.23 and SG1 from the grid, but as long as your TPV can keep up with the protocols on the grid and is TPVP compliant, it will still be possible to use it on SL. Take v1.19: the Cool VL Viewer v1.19.2 was updated so to cope with the new protocols and features (Mono, adult stuff, etc), and it still connects happily to SL. > but at least I won't be working anymore for them. > Patches contributed to Imprudence will be pure GPL and not fall > under the Contribution Agreement. Because this project is really, > purely GPL it will be possible to use OTHER GPL-ed code, from > other third party viewers for example, or anywhere else from > the net. THAT is what open source is about. I told them in this very list that this was what would be happening... Looks like I was right... My own patches are also GPL, and since they don't want to get rid of the stupid license agreement that I can't sign without giving up sensitive private data to them, LL can't use either any of my patches either... It would be a fun thing, if all TPV developers could agree to make all their code 100% GPL and refuse to release it under LL's license agreement term... I'd really love to see LL's "strategists" face then... > I'm pleased to have noticed that all the important open source > people that I have learned to appreciate and respect are > already there. If you are not, please join us! This doesn't have > to a goodbye: I hope to see you join us on the other side! I have my own viewer, but Imprudence is already using many of my patches, and I do intend to reuse some of the code from Imprudence as well (although it would be very much easier if only they could provide a patch set like I do for the Cool VL Viewer). That's the beauty of TRUE Open Source that Snowstorm will never benefit from ! > Thank you for your time, Thank *you* for your wonderful work on Snowglobe ! > Aleric Inglewood. Henri Beauchamp. From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Sep 9 09:53:15 2010 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:53:15 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com> <4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net> <20100909000246.b563e686.sythos@gmail.com> <20100909103056.GC19841@arnholm.se> Message-ID: <20100909165315.GA25558@alinoe.com> This is not a bad idea at all, except that LL is here for the money so they will refuse it. But opensim might use the idea. You just have to adjust a bit ;). Instead of having people pay for a server 24/7, you could allow them to pay for a certain period of the day (many would find 2 hours per day enough). Then the same machine that would host their sim could be used for other sims during the other 22 hours. I'm sure that with that method it should be possible to cut the price of sims to 25%. But then again, Linden Lab is about to screw us all already in this regard by going to limit the resources of every (private) sim to the tiny share that one would have when the sim is fully loaded. So, that means that you can only use those resources that otherwise would have been available if the sim was loaded to the max 24/7 (which is clearly isn't the case on 99.9% of the sims). As a direct result the same hardware can be used for more sims at the same time while you still pay the same (using virtual hosting). The price SHOULD be cut to 10%, so in effect it's the same idea, but now with all financial benefit exclusively for LL. On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:28:06AM -0400, malachi wrote: > or we could do what that one episode of the outer limits called stasis > where they take and split the population of the world into 3 groups. > alphas betas and elites. then every 72 hours the alphas and betas switch > on a cryogenic freeze. half the population sleep while the other half run > about working and what not. and the elite stay away all the time. Lindens > are the elite i suppose. now if we can just get the system to let only > half of the people log in for 3 days. and the other half stay offline. and > alternate. we would experience much less lag i think lol -- Carlo Wood From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 10:07:13 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:07:13 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... Message-ID: When I start V2 Dev 209046, this show up in my system.log. It goes on producing more than 500 entries per second. Sep 9 12:44:49 iMac ntpd[29]: time reset -0.415501 s Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: initializing... Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: starting runloop... Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: using valid HID device: Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: manufacturer=Primax Electronics; product=Apple Optical USB Mouse; axes_count=5; btn_count=4; min=-3000; max=3000; absolute=1; valid=1; private_data=0x1d767840; Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: curr_loc_id=FD113000 Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: scales: [23.622047 23.622047 Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: 23.622047 23.622047 23.622047 0.000000 ] Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: offsets: [0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 ] Sep 9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) Sep 9 12:49:43: --- last message repeated 499 times --- Sep 9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this second discarded *** Sep 9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) Sep 9 12:49:44: --- last message repeated 499 times --- Sep 9 12:49:44 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this second discarded *** Sep 9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) Sep 9 12:49:45: --- last message repeated 499 times --- Sep 9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this second discarded *** Sep 9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) From sythos at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 10:25:42 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:25:42 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiler optimizations on Viewer and LLKDU In-Reply-To: <4C88D797.3060308@lindenlab.com> References: <53B6DD8B6D26463BB4FBE357B8BCC931@kenb> <4C88D797.3060308@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100909192542.bc3c28e7.sythos@gmail.com> On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:48:23 +0100 Tofu Linden wrote: > Sheet Spotter wrote: > > 1. Are there any plans to enable higher levels of compiler > > optimizations for the viewer? > Yup! There are a wad of changes like this in the dev pipeline, but we > want to prove the heck out of them (they are still considered > experimental and somewhat intertwined with some other, > even-more-experimental changes). maybe is the right time to check libs versions... GTK are old enough and already both no cygwin, *nix and macosX newer ones (with more performances on mixed thread, where mixed thread appliable like dual core processor +HT than report to OS 4 cores, a real core have a different cache code managing of a virtual core like on a HT), GCC4 is soooo old, more and big improvement made since 4.1, more again on 4.2 (and maybe setup makefile to create target as i686, not anymore i386, to allow GCC enable advanced features, no less than i686 is required to run a viewer) From sythos at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 10:18:49 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Francesco Rabbi) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:18:49 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> Have you applied latest Apple fix? There was one a couple of week ago about dns client... If you run an older version? On my iMac 24" (lot old) no repro... -- Sent by iPhone Il giorno 09/set/2010, alle ore 19:07, Ponzu ha scritto: > When I start V2 Dev 209046, this show up in my system.log. It goes on > producing more than 500 entries per second. > > > Sep 9 12:44:49 iMac ntpd[29]: time reset -0.415501 s > Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac > [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: > initializing... > Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac > [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: > starting runloop... > Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac > [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: using > valid HID device: > Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac > [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: > manufacturer=Primax Electronics; product=Apple Optical USB Mouse; > axes_count=5; btn_count=4; min=-3000; max=3000; absolute=1; valid=1; > private_data=0x1d767840; > Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac > [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: > curr_loc_id=FD113000 > Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac > [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: scales: > [23.622047 23.622047 > Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac > [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: 23.622047 23.622047 > 23.622047 0.000000 ] > Sep 9 12:48:24 iMac > [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: offsets: > [0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 ] > Sep 9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life > Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub > deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) > Sep 9 12:49:43: --- last message repeated 499 times --- > Sep 9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life > Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 > exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this > second discarded *** > Sep 9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life > Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub > deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) > Sep 9 12:49:44: --- last message repeated 499 times --- > Sep 9 12:49:44 iMac /Applications/Second Life > Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 > exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this > second discarded *** > Sep 9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life > Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub > deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) > Sep 9 12:49:45: --- last message repeated 499 times --- > Sep 9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life > Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 > exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this > second discarded *** > Sep 9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life > Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub > deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 10:43:11 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:43:11 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: I have all the latest fixes from Software Update. Is that what you mean? On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Francesco Rabbi wrote: > Have you applied latest Apple fix? There was one a couple of week ago > about dns client... If you run an older version? > > On my iMac 24" (lot old) no repro... > > -- > Sent by iPhone > > Il giorno 09/set/2010, alle ore 19:07, Ponzu ha scritto: > >> When I start V2 Dev 209046, this show up in my system.log. ?It goes on >> producing more than 500 entries per second. >> >> >> Sep ?9 12:44:49 iMac ntpd[29]: time reset -0.415501 s >> Sep ?9 12:48:24 iMac >> [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: >> initializing... >> Sep ?9 12:48:24 iMac >> [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: >> starting runloop... >> Sep ?9 12:48:24 iMac >> [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: using >> valid HID device: >> Sep ?9 12:48:24 iMac >> [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: libndofdev: >> manufacturer=Primax Electronics; product=Apple Optical USB Mouse; >> axes_count=5; btn_count=4; min=-3000; max=3000; absolute=1; valid=1; >> private_data=0x1d767840; >> Sep ?9 12:48:24 iMac >> [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: >> curr_loc_id=FD113000 >> Sep ?9 12:48:24 iMac >> [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: ? ? scales: >> [23.622047 23.622047 >> Sep ?9 12:48:24 iMac >> [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: 23.622047 23.622047 >> 23.622047 0.000000 ] >> Sep ?9 12:48:24 iMac >> [0x0-0x3b23b2].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12501]: ? ? offsets: >> [0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 ] >> Sep ?9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life >> Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub >> deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) >> Sep ?9 12:49:43: --- last message repeated 499 times --- >> Sep ?9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life >> Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 >> exceeded 500 log message per second limit ?- ?remaining messages this >> second discarded *** >> Sep ?9 12:49:43 iMac /Applications/Second Life >> Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub >> deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) >> Sep ?9 12:49:44: --- last message repeated 499 times --- >> Sep ?9 12:49:44 iMac /Applications/Second Life >> Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 >> exceeded 500 log message per second limit ?- ?remaining messages this >> second discarded *** >> Sep ?9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life >> Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub >> deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) >> Sep ?9 12:49:45: --- last message repeated 499 times --- >> Sep ?9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life >> Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: *** process 12501 >> exceeded 500 log message per second limit ?- ?remaining messages this >> second discarded *** >> Sep ?9 12:49:45 iMac /Applications/Second Life >> Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12501]: dnssd_clientstub >> deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com Thu Sep 9 10:48:46 2010 From: mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com (mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:48:46 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. In-Reply-To: <20100909165315.GA25558@alinoe.com> References: <20100908230719.7698e189.sythos@gmail.com><4C880274.4090703@streamsense.net><20100909000246.b563e686.sythos@gmail.com><20100909103056.GC19841@arnholm.se> <20100909165315.GA25558@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <59088F0766BC4987B90FD64CAACA85C8@TWEEDY64> Its an illusion OpenSim is cheaper if you look at total cost of ownership and include all time related to managing it. Seems this is the wrong mailing list for this. Please take it to the forums or your blog. M. -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Carlo Wood Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 12:53 PM To: malachi Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com; Anders Arnholm Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Blocking viewers. This is not a bad idea at all, except that LL is here for the money so they will refuse it. But opensim might use the idea. You just have to adjust a bit ;). Instead of having people pay for a server 24/7, you could allow them to pay for a certain period of the day (many would find 2 hours per day enough). Then the same machine that would host their sim could be used for other sims during the other 22 hours. I'm sure that with that method it should be possible to cut the price of sims to 25%. But then again, Linden Lab is about to screw us all already in this regard by going to limit the resources of every (private) sim to the tiny share that one would have when the sim is fully loaded. So, that means that you can only use those resources that otherwise would have been available if the sim was loaded to the max 24/7 (which is clearly isn't the case on 99.9% of the sims). As a direct result the same hardware can be used for more sims at the same time while you still pay the same (using virtual hosting). The price SHOULD be cut to 10%, so in effect it's the same idea, but now with all financial benefit exclusively for LL. On Thu, Sep 09, 2010 at 09:28:06AM -0400, malachi wrote: > or we could do what that one episode of the outer limits called stasis > where they take and split the population of the world into 3 groups. > alphas betas and elites. then every 72 hours the alphas and betas switch > on a cryogenic freeze. half the population sleep while the other half run > about working and what not. and the elite stay away all the time. Lindens > are the elite i suppose. now if we can just get the system to let only > half of the people log in for 3 days. and the other half stay offline. and > alternate. we would experience much less lag i think lol -- Carlo Wood _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Thu Sep 9 11:03:33 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:03:33 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Inventory menu userstory Message-ID: User Story: as a User/Creator I want to be able to more easily and quickly get the exact look I want by being able to select the order I want two of the same item to layer or to be able to replace just the clothing without replacing everything else with a single click. To accomplish this I propose two small additions to the Inventory menus. One that that would be expandable and fall under "wear" labeled "wear on", which would allow you to select the exact placement of an item and one labeled "Replace clothing" at the folder level that would be placed under "replace outfit." I have attached a rough sketch of what such menus might look like. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/35caa0ac/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: inventory menus.png Type: image/png Size: 74836 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/35caa0ac/attachment-0001.png From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Thu Sep 9 12:31:54 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 15:31:54 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Inventory menu userstory In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: kitty that isnt on all versions yet... it certainly isnt on either of the dev builds im running > From: sldev at catznip.com > To: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com > Subject: RE: [opensource-dev] Inventory menu userstory > Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 21:13:56 +0200 > > >One that that would be expandable and fall under "wear" labeled > >"wear on", which would allow you to select the exact placement of > >an item > > http://catznip.com/files/multiwearables_wearon1.png > http://catznip.com/files/multiwearables_wearon2.png > http://catznip.com/files/multiwearables_wearon3.png > > You mean that? *confuzzled* > > I can't use multi-wearables without it anymore (going through "Edit Outfit" > just to pick where you want to wear something is just too much of a pain) > :p. Don't know why LL was never interested in it. > > Kitty > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/8c1744d9/attachment.htm From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Thu Sep 9 12:45:41 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 15:45:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Inventory menu userstory In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: kitty, something similar to that yes. and the replace clothing, would take off every piece of clothing you have on, and put on the clothing items in the new folder, but would not change out the attachments or take off the huds the way replace outfit often does. > From: sldev at catznip.com > To: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com > Subject: RE: [opensource-dev] Inventory menu userstory > Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 21:13:56 +0200 > > >One that that would be expandable and fall under "wear" labeled > >"wear on", which would allow you to select the exact placement of > >an item > > http://catznip.com/files/multiwearables_wearon1.png > http://catznip.com/files/multiwearables_wearon2.png > http://catznip.com/files/multiwearables_wearon3.png > > You mean that? *confuzzled* > > I can't use multi-wearables without it anymore (going through "Edit Outfit" > just to pick where you want to wear something is just too much of a pain) > :p. Don't know why LL was never interested in it. > > Kitty > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/7faa46fb/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 12:47:22 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 15:47:22 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Tried the later build, 209229. Same line in syslog.log Sep 9 14:02:52 iMac [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: libndofdev: manufacturer=Primax Electronics; product=Apple Optical USB Mouse; axes_count=5; btn_count=4; min=-3000; max=3000; absolute=1; valid=1; private_data=0x36353c0; Sep 9 14:02:52 iMac [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: curr_loc_id=FD113000 Sep 9 14:02:52 iMac [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: scales: [23.622047 23.622047 Sep 9 14:02:52 iMac [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: 23.622047 23.622047 23.622047 0.000000 ] Sep 9 14:02:52 iMac [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: offsets: [0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 ] Sep 9 14:03:00 iMac [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: Qt: QCursor: Cannot create bitmap cursor; invalid bitmap(s) Sep 9 14:03:09: --- last message repeated 7 times --- Sep 9 14:03:09 iMac SLPlugin[12786]: Cannot recognize type of executable for CFBundle 0x192f260 (not loaded) Sep 9 14:03:09 iMac [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: 2010-09-09 14:03:09.031 SLPlugin[12786:903] Cannot recognize type of executable for CFBundle 0x192f260 (not loaded) Sep 9 14:03:09 iMac SLPlugin[12786]: Cannot recognize type of executable for CFBundle 0x194ffa0 (not loaded) Sep 9 14:03:09 iMac [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: 2010-09-09 14:03:09.065 SLPlugin[12786:903] Cannot recognize type of executable for CFBundle 0x194ffa0 (not loaded) Sep 9 14:03:22 iMac [0x0-0x5d05d].com.google.Chrome[645]: [12787:519:196476205478591:ERROR:/b/slave/chrome-official-mac/build/src/base/platform_thread_mac.mm(66)] pthread_setname_np: Operation not permitted Sep 9 14:03:22 iMac [0x0-0x5d05d].com.google.Chrome[645]: [12787:12295:196476206087513:ERROR:/b/slave/chrome-official-mac/build/src/base/platform_thread_mac.mm(66)] pthread_setname_np: Operation not permitted Sep 9 14:03:22 iMac sandboxd[12788]: Google Chrome He(12787) deny sysctl-write Sep 9 14:04:26: --- last message repeated 1 time --- Sep 9 14:04:26 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12783]: dnssd_clientstub deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) Sep 9 14:04:26: --- last message repeated 499 times --- Sep 9 14:04:26 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12783]: *** process 12783 exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this second discarded *** Sep 9 14:04:26 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12783]: dnssd_clientstub deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) Sep 9 14:04:28: --- last message repeated 499 times --- Sep 9 14:04:27 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12783]: *** process 12783 exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this second discarded *** Sep 9 14:04:28 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12783]: dnssd_clientstub deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) Sep 9 14:04:28: --- last message repeated 499 times --- Sep 9 14:04:28 iMac /Applications/Second Life Development.app/Contents/MacOS/Second Life[12783]: *** process 12783 exceeded 500 log message per second limit - remaining messages this second discarded *** From sythos at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 13:33:53 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:33:53 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <20100909223353.feeae980.sythos@gmail.com> On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 15:47:22 -0400 Ponzu wrote: > Tried the later build, 209229. Same line in syslog.log > > Sep 9 14:02:52 iMac > [0x0-0x3df3df].com.secondlife.indra.viewer[12783]: libndofdev: [cut] ehm... in advanced/develop menu do you have enabled debug for GL and pipeline? :) From monty at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 9 13:45:51 2010 From: monty at lindenlab.com (Monty Brandenberg) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:45:51 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4C89477F.10705@lindenlab.com> On 9/9/2010 3:47 PM, Ponzu wrote: > Tried the later build, 209229. Same line in syslog.log > A lot of completely unrelated programs are reporting the "deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files)" error (winbindd, hg, omd, Brother printers). Suggest you try two things: 1. Use 'lsof -p ' while this occurs to see what is consuming all the file descriptors. Some additional options might be needed to get deeper information. 2. Bump the limit up in a process (ulimit -n 1024) and then use 'open' to start the viewer in that process and see if that works around the limit. I don't know what the real issue is but the internetz are full of *interesting* theories. Bonjour seems to be the likely candidate: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2186838&start=30&tstart=0 http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=10121652� http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2139587&tstart=0 http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#qa/qa2001/qa1297.html m -- Monty Brandenberg monty at lindenlab.com From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 13:59:42 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:59:42 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: <20100909223353.feeae980.sythos@gmail.com> References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> <20100909223353.feeae980.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > ehm... in advanced/develop menu do you have enabled debug for GL and > pipeline? :) > I don't think so. Never heard of them. What would the exact name or xml be? From merov at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 9 14:04:04 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:04:04 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Merov's OH Message-ID: Hi, As announced during Tuesday meeting, I'm going to stop hosting biweekly Snowglobe meetings. Several reasons: - we (LL) are focusing all our effort on the single viewer which is now developed in the open (Snowstorm) - as a member of the Snowstorm team, I participate to all public meetings of that team, including the daily scrum... that's a lot of time IW already... I know however that there are some questions that you may want to ask me or just chat with me in a setting a little more flexible than scrum mandated meetings. Since I do not have Office Hours (OH), I propose to have one now and hold it on : Tuesday, 2pm PST, Hippotroplis Theater The IW location may change as soon as I get my own spot there but it'll be within shouting distance (or minimap viewing distance...) from the theater. See you there! Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/30e379cc/attachment.htm From sythos at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 14:14:07 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 23:14:07 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> <20100909223353.feeae980.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100909231407.c3cccce3.sythos@gmail.com> On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:59:42 -0400 Ponzu wrote: > > > > ehm... in advanced/develop menu do you have enabled debug for GL and > > pipeline? :) > > > > I don't think so. Never heard of them. What would the exact name or > xml be? crtl+apple+D and appear (or +alt too....) open it and select last line "show dev menu" in dev menu select "rendering" and turn off the "debug......," lines From sythos at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 14:14:52 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 23:14:52 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: <4C89477F.10705@lindenlab.com> References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> <4C89477F.10705@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100909231452.b86eab73.sythos@gmail.com> On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:45:51 -0400 Monty Brandenberg wrote: > 2. Bump the limit up in a process (ulimit -n 1024) and > then use 'open' to start the viewer in that process and > see if that works around the limit. damm... was mine the jira opened for this.... i raised limit to 4096 system wide... (default 1024 per user) From oz at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 9 14:16:08 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 17:16:08 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Updated Snowstorm submission procedure In-Reply-To: <4C770887.8060005@lindenlab.com> References: <4C770887.8060005@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C894E98.4020408@lindenlab.com> On 2010-08-26 20:36, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > I've just updated the procedure for how to submit a changeset for > Snowstorm integration. There's now an explicit mechanism in Jira to > queue a change to be integrated. See > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_To_Submit_A_Viewer_Change > > This is a temporary procedure - it will be replaced by a better one > using Jira workflow when Jira is upgraded (the new workflow is in > place and ready to be used post-upgrade, which is currently on track > for September 7). With the new Jira available now, the submission procedure for changes to be integrated by Snowstorm into the viewer-development tree has been changed - the wiki address above is still correct, but the process is all new (it's now a series of Jira workflow transitions). Please have a look and begin using this new procedure immediately. From zabb65 at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 14:41:38 2010 From: zabb65 at gmail.com (Zabb65) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 17:41:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiler optimizations on Viewer and LLKDU In-Reply-To: <53B6DD8B6D26463BB4FBE357B8BCC931@kenb> References: <53B6DD8B6D26463BB4FBE357B8BCC931@kenb> Message-ID: KDU automatically detects and uses cpu optimization if its available. The only compiler options I'm aware of are those that enable or disable threading of decoding, which I suspect won't be of much benefit for the type of images uses in SL(small and fast to decode). Compiling the base code with optimizations for CPU instruction sets(SSE,etc) might help slightly, but the results would be minimal. In the long ago days of Emerald, compiler optimizations were evil, and caused obscure bugs that were hard to find, most of them would show up on linux and mac, but there were some on windows too, related to using SSE2 instruction sets that would cause the builds to crash at random. At the time, I think LL has managed to balance optimization flags with stability, It might be wise to leave what is known to work alone, save there is enough manpower and time to extensively test the use of new instruction sets across a great number of machine setups. In the testing that was done internally for Emerald, results were rather surprising, using SSE2 either causing a major slowdown and choppy behavior for the client on some setups, or the results were between 3 and 8% frame rate increase for a test scene. The major improvement that I remember was in avatar rendering time, as well the rebuilding of face geometry, where it could take advantage of doing multiple things at once. None of the testing done was terribly organized or reliable though, so I hope somebody else can set up some tests and compare this a bit more accurately. Summary: Might want to leave this as is, for stability, because the gains are either negative, or small enough that its not worth the possible losses. From hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 9 18:25:36 2010 From: hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk (Hitomi Tiponi) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:25:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Viewer Issue Tracker and Product Backlog Message-ID: <181455.27788.qm@web23906.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I was wondering what the criteria is for something to be pulled across from the issue tracker (JIRA) into the Product Backlog? Some requests for change seem to have been in the JIRA a long time and have lots of votes and don't seem to get pulled across whereas some others seem to come straight into the product backlog. I would like to know what the process is for this please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/11a839bd/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 9 19:09:33 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:09:33 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 09/09/2010 Message-ID: Date: Thu Sep 9, 2010 Also available here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive *=== General Notes ===* * Don't forget to grab tasks from the Sprint Backlog and update your time remaining on that task each day! * Merge Monkey of the Day: Merov *===Team Status===* *====Aimee Linden====* *PAST* OOO *====Tofu Linden====* *PAST* * DEV-30773 llTextBox() * Some Coverity bug fixes * SNOW-606 juggling (and ultimate backout) * Some OOO *FUTURE* * DEV-30773 llTextBox() * Make myself a teamcity task for staging * Some OOO *IMPEDIMENTS* * Linux build machine needs a bit of system-image love - little fuzzy on who owns that, pinged CG and Sabin. *====Oz Linden====* OOO *====Merov Linden====* *PAST* * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: Perf tracking ** Got a KDU baseline and compared with OpenJpeg. First data show that OpenJpeg 4 times slower in decompression than KDU. ** Posted a doc: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Performance_Testers ** First commit to dev repo : https://bitbucket.org/merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761/changeset/71b1676532b3 * VWR-22759 : Chat Translator: Got green from Esbee and Q on Design Review *FUTURE* * VWR-22761 : LLKDU upgrade: Polish doc, get more baseline data * VWR-22759 : Chat Translator: Move to next stage *IMPEDIMENTS* * Kakadu license upgrade *====Q Linden====* *OOO* *====Esbee Linden====* *PAST* * Worked on draft of Jira VWR workflow proposal and discuss w/Q * Moved Snowstorm Team Backlog to GH * Trying out new Jira VWR workflows *FUTURE* * Schedule meeting with Orange, Gentle, and LordGregGreg for next week. * Share UI customization notes and sketches with Rhett from XD team * Finish draft of Jira VWR workflow proposal * Set up sprints in GH *IMPEDIMENTS* * Not receiving Tofu's email to mailing list (still not sure why) *====Paul ProductEngine====* *PAST* * VWR-22346 (Appearance > 'Wearing' tab: Add Take off / Detach function to the gear menu) **Corrected according to Vadim's commentaries *FUTURE* * VWR-22169 (Delete outfit confirmation message doesn'r appear if use context or gear menu on 'My Outfits' tab) estimate ~ 8 hours *IMPEDIMENTS* *none *====Andrew ProductEngine====* *PAST* *Bug VWR-22008 (People you called via Adhoc are not shown in Recent tab). **Discussed with Andrey, didn't find solution. Will ask in jira when able to add watchers * Major bug VWR-22125 (Mini-inspector floater doesn't appear after click on 'i' icon in IM or Nearby chat window). **Found problem. Took more time due to additional bug (VWR-22898 - Some buttons disappear when clicked) **Fixed, will apply fix when Richard fixes VWR-22898 (Vadim linked them) * Bug VWR-22888 (Empty space appears in the top of Home side panel after redocking) **WIP. Estimate - 6h *FUTURE* *VWR-22888 (Empty space appears in the top of Home side panel after redocking) *IMPEDIMENTS* * none *====Vadim ProductEngine====* *PAST* * sent email to viewer-tech about problems building on Ubuntu 10.04, Tofu immediately merged the fix. ** later it turned out fix broke the build on LL servers, fix has been rolled back, discussion continues (?) * Filed a ticket (VWR-22898) regarding disappearing buttons problem. *Bug VWR-22891 (Docked IM window hides when try to share an item while My Inventory SP is undocked): **Fixed * Bug VWR-22896 (Panel state resets on dock/undock): **Fixed but want to test some more to prevent accidental regressions *FUTURE* *Paul's review request *Finish VWR-22896 *Other bugs *IMPEDIMENTS* * None *====Seth ProductEngine (Sergey)====* OOO - Vacation *====Andrey ProductEngine====* *PAST* * filed issues discovered yesterday during smoke test and VWR-20694 testing * started revision of existing TPE "regression" suite for viewer *FUTURE* * complete revision and identify gaps (Home, Picks/Classifieds, My Profile have no "formal" regression cases at least) * add sidetray panel docking/undocking test cases *IMPEDIMENTS* * none *====Grumpity ProductEngine (Anya)====* *PAST* *played with new jira *workflow followup *server testing followup *FUTURE* *detachable sidebar & bottom bar review *transition issues from VWR to STORM? *update sprint backlog *IMPEDIMENTS* *cannot transition issues from VWR to STORM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/a995d40c/attachment.htm From sldev at catznip.com Thu Sep 9 19:30:10 2010 From: sldev at catznip.com (Kitty) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:30:10 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm clarification Message-ID: Maybe I missed something when Snowstorm was announced, but I was under the impression that LL was going to be more "open" about viewer development. Before Snowstorm there were "code drops" into viewer-external on SVN several times a week (or weekly at worst). Since Snowstorm there haven't been any noteworthy upstream "code drops" from LL into viewer-development (2.1.1 was added, but then it was already on SVN before) that aren't resident contributions or reintegrating Snowglobe patches. If development of the viewer hasn't been halted for the past three weeks, where is all of the code going? *confuzzled* Or in the new terminology: as a resident, I would like to know why an "open development" announcement has the net effect of LL releasing less than it did prior to that announcement. Kitty From erikba at odysseus.anderson.name Thu Sep 9 20:13:11 2010 From: erikba at odysseus.anderson.name (Erik Anderson) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:13:11 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the Lindens have pretty much left Subversion alone since they stopped pushing out "code specially made for the public". They've switched to Mercurial, and the repository they're using at http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development seems to have a fair amount of activity... On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Kitty wrote: > Maybe I missed something when Snowstorm was announced, but I was under the > impression that LL was going to be more "open" about viewer development. > > Before Snowstorm there were "code drops" into viewer-external on SVN > several > times a week (or weekly at worst). > > Since Snowstorm there haven't been any noteworthy upstream "code drops" > from > LL into viewer-development (2.1.1 was added, but then it was already on SVN > before) that aren't resident contributions or reintegrating Snowglobe > patches. > > If development of the viewer hasn't been halted for the past three weeks, > where is all of the code going? *confuzzled* > > Or in the new terminology: as a resident, I would like to know why an "open > development" announcement has the net effect of LL releasing less than it > did prior to that announcement. > > Kitty > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/90a25295/attachment-0001.htm From merov at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 9 20:34:45 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:34:45 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Nicky, As it happens, I've been working on instrumenting the code to add metric gathering for image decompression as part of the Snowstorm sprint. You may want to use my branch ( https://bitbucket.org/merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761) and create a baseline for openjpeg then run a test for Jasper. You'll have to sort out the failing cases certainly and just throw them so we compare what gets truly decompressed (though, clearly, working in all cases is pretty critical if we look at Jasper as an alternative). Here's what I got comparing KDU and OpenJpeg: Label Metric KDU(B) OJ2C(T) Diff(T-B) Percentage(100*T/B) ImageCompressionTester-1 TotalBytesInDecompression 5048643 5003370 -45273 99.1 TotalBytesOutDecompression 40415336 46592896 6177560 115.29 TimeTimeDecompression 3.74 17.04 13.3 455.39 ImageCompressionTester-2 TotalBytesInDecompression 5000744 5000144 -600 99.99 TotalBytesOutDecompression 46440040 44248324 -2191716 95.28 TimeTimeDecompression 3.64 15.02 11.37 412.02 For that test, I output data every time 5MB of compressed data have been processed. It's partial but shows that OpenJpeg is roughly 4 times slower than KDU (at least, the version we're using in the official viewer currently). Would be nice to have a similar set of numbers for Jasper before going too far down the implementation path. I wrote a short (and still incompleted) wiki to explain a bit how the metric gathering system works: - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Performance_Testers BTW, that's something we should be using more generally for other perf sensitive areas, especially when starting a perf improvement project. See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22761 for details. Cheers, - Merov On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Nicky Fullton wrote: > Hello, > > >> i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for JPG2000 > >> images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have tested > >> last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must do a lot > >> of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around never > >> tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? > > >I'm not aware of anyone publishing results for such a test, but if you > >have the time it would be interesting reading. > > You might be interested in: > http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/027bf44c5582 > > I made a rather quick hack to try Jasper instead of OpenJpeg to decode > images. > > The patch has some very rough edges. In fact is the decoding into the > LLImageRaw buffer not correct. > > I did not fix this (yet) because the results so far are not very promising. > Jasper can only decode around 20% of the jpeg, for the other 80% it will > create an error and then my code falls back to OpenJpeg. > This fallback makes the whole decoding rather slow, so it is hard to say > if Jasper would really be any faster. > > Right now I am not sure if it would be reasonable to invest more time > looking at Jasper. First the code would need to fixed upstream, so all > images can be properly decoded. As this project looks rather dead, one > with JPEG2000 knowledge might have to step up for this. > > On another note, you might like to try: > http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/e4eff3e2af39 > > This will at least skip the step of calling OpenJpeg in > LImageJ2COJ::getMetadata (if possible, it will do sanity checks first). > > >Some things to keep in > >mind. OpenJpeg has patches floating around on its ML against 1.3 that > >reports have claimed up to 40% speed increase in places due to > >unrolling the inner loops so finding them and testing would be good. > > I did not find any of those, but then again maybe I did not look hard > enough. > There is certainly some potential in OpenJpeg. > There are some loops in t1_dec_sigpass and t1_dec_refpass that can be > easily rewritten. But there is some pretty tricky stuff in t1_dec_clnpass > that would need some cleaning and mqc decoder (mqc_decode) burns a lot > of time. But that one is especially hairy as it has side effects on its > input parameter. > > I am not sure if anyone without enough deep knowledge of OpenJpeg (and > the dedication to recode a good part of it) would be able to improve > much of it. > > Cheers, > Nicky > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100909/36816076/attachment.htm From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 01:02:24 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:02:24 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:30 AM, Kitty wrote: > Maybe I missed something when Snowstorm was announced, but I was under the > impression that LL was going to be more "open" about viewer development. > > Before Snowstorm there were "code drops" into viewer-external on SVN several > times a week (or weekly at worst). > > Since Snowstorm there haven't been any noteworthy upstream "code drops" from > LL into viewer-development (2.1.1 was added, but then it was already on SVN > before) that aren't resident contributions or reintegrating Snowglobe > patches. > > If development of the viewer hasn't been halted for the past three weeks, > where is all of the code going? ?*confuzzled* > The main development integration is taking place on https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development where you will see commit by commit as it happens, which is pretty much new things through out the working day every day. SVN is dead now and there will be no further updates to it. There are no more code drops as these were often badly out of sync with actual releases and often were broken due to the exact point they exported from etc. All code both from external contributors and internal LL teams makes its way to the viewer-development hg repository which will now be used to build release viewers and release candidates etc (which will be tagged as approprate), so any actual release viewers will be build right off that public repository. Snowstorm itself is the name for the team of people managaging the above hg repository Robin From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 10 07:50:01 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:50:01 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] [POLICY] Banning TPV not on the TPV list In-Reply-To: <-5775365832052285643@unknownmsgid> References: <1283989503.28269.7.camel@nostromo> <-5775365832052285643@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4C8A4599.9030701@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-09 1:59, Francesco Rabbi wrote: >> > Hello Altair! >> > I wanted to respond to a comment you made on the opensource-dev list. >> > >> > You said "imho*ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be blacklisted...." All viewers must comply with the Third Party Viewer Policy. Viewers in the directory are ones that have certified that they are compliant - viewers not in the directory may or may not be compliant, but it's up to the user to determine that. Using a non-compliant viewer or distributing one are both ToS violations. None of this is really an opensource-dev topic, however. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/ed574527/attachment.htm From latifer at streamgrid.net Fri Sep 10 08:18:48 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:18:48 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Getting JIRA data from scripts Message-ID: In case some of you wrote JIRA helper objects that got broken with the JIRA updates recently here is a few hints: Appending ?os_authType=guest to the end of the request will bypass the OpenID check and allow you script to get the code directly, for example http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2771?os_authType=guest If you find XML easier to parse you can get all the data about a JIRA issue in XML format by using the following type of URL: http://jira.secondlife.com/si/jira.issueviews:issue-xml/WEB-2771/WEB-2771.xml?os_authType=guest (Thanks to Sue Linden for providing the information :) Latif From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 08:23:21 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:23:21 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Next Viewer version (was Re: Snowstorm clarification) Message-ID: So, given all that, when will the Version of the viewer be rolled out? Do we know what its version number will be? Who decides? At that point, will there be a new Beta version? Same questions as above. From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 10 09:22:25 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:22:25 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-09 7:15, Aidan Thornton wrote: > On 9/8/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> * Remove viewer-external from hg.secondlife.com > Am I right in thinking there's no revision history in here that isn't > available in more useful and fine-grained form in viewer-external? That is correct, except that the history is in viewer-development, which I'm sure is what you meant. >> * Take down the Snowglobe subversion repository > That's going to be kinda obnoxious, because it means non-Linden Labs > developers won't be able to look back at what was changed in > Snowglobe, when and why. There will still be mainstream 1.23-based > viewers by then unless Linden Labs does something incredibly brilliant > or something incredibly stupid, and they'll still have a use for the > Snowglobe version control history. Viewer developers should be thinking now about how to migrate to the new code base so that you can support your features and interfaces with the new underlying capabilities (and there are more coming) and superior stability that the new code base has. Eventually (and there is _no_ plan for when this will be - certainly longer than 3 months), it will no longer be possible for us to continue to support viewers based on the 1.x code base (including our own), and we'll stop. Well before this happens, we'll have a public discussion about it, and about what must be supported to remain compatible. If you have moved to and stayed reasonably current with the 2.x code base, then it will be a non-event for you. From javajoint at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 11:30:04 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:30:04 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > > Eventually (and there is _no_ plan for when this will be - certainly > longer than 3 months), it will no longer be possible for us to continue > to support viewers based on the 1.x code base (including our own), and > we'll stop. > > If this is the case, then you need to reconsider your booming Wizard of Oz proclamation of: ?Don?t waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away Viewer 2, or that > we revert the UI to Viewer 1. It is absolutely not going to > happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored.? > > from: > http://www.mail-archive.com/opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com/msg02459.html > What you are doing by that, is setting the puzzle pieces together which will result in quite a migration of users (and viewer developers) away from LL. An interesting note is that you have only been at LL (and apparently, in SL) for only 4 months. You are making a decision on something where 90% of the community has much more experience than you. The other interesting note is what Philip just said in an interview: From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 10 12:02:41 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:02:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C8A80D1.4020406@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-10 14:30, Daniel Smith wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) > > wrote: > > > Eventually (and there is _no_ plan for when this will be - certainly > longer than 3 months), it will no longer be possible for us to > continue > to support viewers based on the 1.x code base (including our own), and > we'll stop. > > > If this is the case, then you need to reconsider your booming Wizard > of Oz proclamation > of: > > ?Don?t waste everyones time suggesting that we throw away > Viewer 2, or that we revert the UI to Viewer 1. It is > absolutely not going to > happen, and any suggestion to that effect will be ignored.? > > from: > http://www.mail-archive.com/opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com/msg02459.htm > > They'll probably put that quote on my tombstone :-) Note that I did not say that we would not consider migrating specific features from the v1 UI. > What you are doing by that, is setting the puzzle pieces together > which will result in quite a migration of users (and viewer > developers) away from LL. > > An interesting note is that you have only been at LL (and apparently, > in SL) for only 4 months. You are making a decision on something > where 90% of the community has much more experience than you. > > The other interesting note is what Philip just said in an interview: > > From the interview with Philip, I see: > Mitch Wagner > "Fast, Easy, Fun" with Second Life founder Philip Rosedale > > Viewer 2 also needs to be beefed up for Second Life content > creators, who nearly universally criticize the software as a giant > step backward from the previous version. "We'll rapidly make the > Viewer 2 codebase have the capabilities that everybody wants," > Rosedale said. > > from: http://blogs.computerworld.com/16905/second_life > What I said and what Philip said are not in conflict... we do understand that we have a lot of UI work to do in v2, and we're doing it. He was focusing on one aspect of that work, but there are many others (we've got quite a catalogue in our Backlog). The most important reasons that we don't have a plan to deprecate the 1.x viewers are: * We don't need to yet - the number of SL features that they don't support is still acceptably small * We know that the UI issues for v1 users are still much too serious We know that we've got to solve the second problem before the missing feature support in v1 viewers becomes too big a problem. The bottom line is that we can't afford to develop two families of viewers, so we have to stop investing in v1 completely (and yes, even just keeping it up and building requires significant work) so that we can fix v2 faster. I hope that we can change the traffic on this list to be more focused on consideration of the actual work to be done, and how we can collectively do it best, and spend a bit less time on Pronouncements Of Doom and other drama. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/ea8a08c8/attachment.htm From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Fri Sep 10 12:59:40 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:59:40 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] esbee hour transcripts? Message-ID: Is there a link to the transcripts of esbee's last office hour? I kinda need them to proceed with the next phase for some of the user stories I am working on :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/a4dd8a4d/attachment.htm From q at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 10 13:18:32 2010 From: q at lindenlab.com (Kent Quirk (Q Linden)) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:18:32 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] esbee hour transcripts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Esbee_Linden/Office_Hours/2010-09-08 On Sep 10, 2010, at 3:59 PM, Erin Mallory wrote: > Is there a link to the transcripts of esbee's last office hour? I kinda need them to proceed with the next phase for some of the user stories I am working on :) > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/be5ae336/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Fri Sep 10 15:30:19 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 00:30:19 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:22:25 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-09 7:15, Aidan Thornton wrote: > > On 9/8/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > >> * Take down the Snowglobe subversion repository > > That's going to be kinda obnoxious, because it means non-Linden Labs > > developers won't be able to look back at what was changed in > > Snowglobe, when and why. There will still be mainstream 1.23-based > > viewers by then unless Linden Labs does something incredibly brilliant > > or something incredibly stupid, and they'll still have a use for the > > Snowglobe version control history. > > Viewer developers should be thinking now about how to migrate to the new > code base so that you can support your features and interfaces with the > new underlying capabilities (and there are more coming) Viewer developers will not consider migrating to the viewer 2 code base for many months, because it's simply easier for them to port the few interesting new features of viewer 2 to viewer 1, than to redo the whole UI of viewer 2 to match their user base expectations and needs. I already ported the Tattoo and Alpha wearables months ago to the Cool VL Viewer (and most TPVs now reuse my patch), and the inventory item links support a few weeks ago. I'll work next on multiple attachments per point. With Snowglobe v1.5 as the code base and the above cited backports, you already have a better viewer than viewer 2, with a better stability and higher frame rates... > and superior stability that the new code base has. ROFLOL !!!! You are kidding, aren't you ?... If not, then please try using a good TPV and see how many times it crashes in a week... 0 for the Cool VL Viewer (and I'm using it every day). Fact is that TPVs got fixes that v1.23.5 doesn't have and that makes them MUCH stabler than 1.23.5, and v2 (which is even worst, stability-wise, than v1.23.5 !). The reason is simple: should I crash, I trace the crash down and fix the code. Crash gone ! > Eventually (and there is _no_ plan for when this will be - certainly > longer than 3 months), it will no longer be possible for us to continue > to support viewers based on the 1.x code base (including our own), and > we'll stop. By then, all the required changes will be ported to the v1 codebase and migrating to v2 will still be unnecessary... This could go like that for at least one or even two years before the backports become too cumbersome to be worth staying with v1. I know it first hand, since I did just that with the Cool VL Viewer v1.19. > Well before this happens, we'll have a public discussion > about it, and about what must be supported to remain compatible. If you > have moved to and stayed reasonably current with the 2.x code base, then > it will be a non-event for you. Again, TPV developers are not going to bother with v2 unless YOU, Linden Lab, change your stance on the UI and do accept reversals to the v1 way, where needed. Henri. From dillydobbs at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 16:27:32 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:27:32 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: I would like to know 2 things, as an observer. You continue to make statements like 'TPV developers' as if you speak for them all. Secondly, I distinctly remember you saying goodbye to us all, Is this your Hi im back statement? This isn't meant to be offensive im just trying to understand where your coming from. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:22:25 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > On 2010-09-09 7:15, Aidan Thornton wrote: > > > On 9/8/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > >> * Take down the Snowglobe subversion repository > > > That's going to be kinda obnoxious, because it means non-Linden Labs > > > developers won't be able to look back at what was changed in > > > Snowglobe, when and why. There will still be mainstream 1.23-based > > > viewers by then unless Linden Labs does something incredibly brilliant > > > or something incredibly stupid, and they'll still have a use for the > > > Snowglobe version control history. > > > > Viewer developers should be thinking now about how to migrate to the new > > code base so that you can support your features and interfaces with the > > new underlying capabilities (and there are more coming) > > Viewer developers will not consider migrating to the viewer 2 code base > for many months, because it's simply easier for them to port the few > interesting new features of viewer 2 to viewer 1, than to redo the whole > UI of viewer 2 to match their user base expectations and needs. > > I already ported the Tattoo and Alpha wearables months ago to the Cool > VL Viewer (and most TPVs now reuse my patch), and the inventory item > links support a few weeks ago. I'll work next on multiple attachments > per point. > > With Snowglobe v1.5 as the code base and the above cited backports, > you already have a better viewer than viewer 2, with a better stability > and higher frame rates... > > > and superior stability that the new code base has. > > ROFLOL !!!! > > You are kidding, aren't you ?... If not, then please try using a good > TPV and see how many times it crashes in a week... 0 for the Cool VL > Viewer (and I'm using it every day). Fact is that TPVs got fixes that > v1.23.5 doesn't have and that makes them MUCH stabler than 1.23.5, and > v2 (which is even worst, stability-wise, than v1.23.5 !). The reason > is simple: should I crash, I trace the crash down and fix the code. > Crash gone ! > > > Eventually (and there is _no_ plan for when this will be - certainly > > longer than 3 months), it will no longer be possible for us to continue > > to support viewers based on the 1.x code base (including our own), and > > we'll stop. > > By then, all the required changes will be ported to the v1 codebase > and migrating to v2 will still be unnecessary... This could go like > that for at least one or even two years before the backports become > too cumbersome to be worth staying with v1. I know it first hand, > since I did just that with the Cool VL Viewer v1.19. > > > Well before this happens, we'll have a public discussion > > about it, and about what must be supported to remain compatible. If you > > have moved to and stayed reasonably current with the 2.x code base, then > > it will be a non-event for you. > > Again, TPV developers are not going to bother with v2 unless YOU, Linden > Lab, change your stance on the UI and do accept reversals to the v1 way, > where needed. > > Henri. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/b85c4c0e/attachment-0001.htm From nexisentertainment at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 16:40:18 2010 From: nexisentertainment at gmail.com (Rob Nelson) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:40:18 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C8AC1E2.7020608@gmail.com> Understand that since the Emerald fiasco, many viewer developers who have since "retired" are coming back either via user pressure or to take advantage of the power vacuum. I personally just finished fixing up Luna for messing about in InWorldz. Their developers seemed interested in my Lua engine, and I'm out of my "coder's block". Rob Nelson On 9/10/2010 4:27 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: > I would like to know 2 things, as an observer. You continue to make > statements like 'TPV developers' as if you speak for them all. > > Secondly, I distinctly remember you saying goodbye to us all, Is this > your Hi im back statement? > > This isn't meant to be offensive im just trying to understand where > your coming from. > > > I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by > > Douglas Adams > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Henri Beauchamp > wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:22:25 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > On 2010-09-09 7:15, Aidan Thornton wrote: > > > On 9/8/10, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) > wrote: > > >> * Take down the Snowglobe subversion repository > > > That's going to be kinda obnoxious, because it means > non-Linden Labs > > > developers won't be able to look back at what was changed in > > > Snowglobe, when and why. There will still be mainstream 1.23-based > > > viewers by then unless Linden Labs does something incredibly > brilliant > > > or something incredibly stupid, and they'll still have a use > for the > > > Snowglobe version control history. > > > > Viewer developers should be thinking now about how to migrate to > the new > > code base so that you can support your features and interfaces > with the > > new underlying capabilities (and there are more coming) > > Viewer developers will not consider migrating to the viewer 2 code > base > for many months, because it's simply easier for them to port the few > interesting new features of viewer 2 to viewer 1, than to redo the > whole > UI of viewer 2 to match their user base expectations and needs. > > I already ported the Tattoo and Alpha wearables months ago to the Cool > VL Viewer (and most TPVs now reuse my patch), and the inventory item > links support a few weeks ago. I'll work next on multiple attachments > per point. > > With Snowglobe v1.5 as the code base and the above cited backports, > you already have a better viewer than viewer 2, with a better > stability > and higher frame rates... > > > and superior stability that the new code base has. > > ROFLOL !!!! > > You are kidding, aren't you ?... If not, then please try using a good > TPV and see how many times it crashes in a week... 0 for the Cool VL > Viewer (and I'm using it every day). Fact is that TPVs got fixes that > v1.23.5 doesn't have and that makes them MUCH stabler than 1.23.5, and > v2 (which is even worst, stability-wise, than v1.23.5 !). The reason > is simple: should I crash, I trace the crash down and fix the code. > Crash gone ! > > > Eventually (and there is _no_ plan for when this will be - certainly > > longer than 3 months), it will no longer be possible for us to > continue > > to support viewers based on the 1.x code base (including our > own), and > > we'll stop. > > By then, all the required changes will be ported to the v1 codebase > and migrating to v2 will still be unnecessary... This could go like > that for at least one or even two years before the backports become > too cumbersome to be worth staying with v1. I know it first hand, > since I did just that with the Cool VL Viewer v1.19. > > > Well before this happens, we'll have a public discussion > > about it, and about what must be supported to remain compatible. > If you > > have moved to and stayed reasonably current with the 2.x code > base, then > > it will be a non-event for you. > > Again, TPV developers are not going to bother with v2 unless YOU, > Linden > Lab, change your stance on the UI and do accept reversals to the > v1 way, > where needed. > > Henri. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/53eb9526/attachment.htm From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 10 17:01:49 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:01:49 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Test plans / Acceptance Criteria for Snowstorm sprint 3 Message-ID: Hi, I went ahead and move VWR records to STORM for my sprint 3 tasks and added Test Plans (that was a follow up on the sprint review of this morning). The results are in the following records: - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-106 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-115 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-116 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-117 - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-118 I like the fact that the Acceptance Criteria appear at the top of the record. Great for reviewing and validating/closing fixes. Let me know if that works for you guys as far the level of details in the plan. One question: how do we close (Accept) fixes? Clearly, that shouldn't be the dev doing this (not me then on those) but how to make sure it gets on the radar of someone? Cheers, - Merov PS: Special thanks to Latif for helping me on STORM-116 test plan :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/fc14f96d/attachment.htm From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 10 17:04:02 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:04:02 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] STORM-106 : Chat Translation Message-ID: Hi, Just to mention that this feature has been pulled in lindenlab/viewer-development. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/c4841997/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Fri Sep 10 17:13:56 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:13:56 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:27:32 -0500, dilly dobbs wrote: > I would like to know 2 things, as an observer. You continue to make > statements like 'TPV developers' as if you speak for them all. > > Secondly, I distinctly remember you saying goodbye to us all, Is this your > Hi im back statement? > > This isn't meant to be offensive im just trying to understand where your > coming from. 1.- TPV developers seem to be agreeing with me (at least, none of them so far denied it in this list). Same thing if to believe their own blogs and forums... But for Kirsten and Marine (Kirsten probably because she values most shadow rendering and other rendering improvements in v2, and Marine because she always provided RestrainedLove for the current official viewer), none of them so far consider moving to the viewer 2 code base in the short term, and several of them (at least three in this list, me included) seem pretty much disapointed (to say the least), with LL's stance. Oh, I also had a look to the mercurial repository for Snowstorm, and tried to count the TPV developpers who submitted patches... Even someone amputated with fingers on each hand, could still count them on one hand... Plus, in my messages on this list, I merely pointed out how, when considering the pros and the cons of a move to viewer 2, LL's own stance on Snowstorm is far from an encouragement to do the move, and even less to contribute to Snowstorm. 2.- You should read my posts better... I never said I'd leave, much to the contrary (I even said I'd fight to the last extremity before I would even consider giving up); you are probably confusing me with Aleric who just left. I might be blunt with LL, but they often deserve it, and I always try to be constructive. I've got "some experience", mind you, both in RL (counted in decades) and in SL (counted in years)... That's "where I'm coming from"... While my prose in this list most often only represents my personal opinion, it might be of some value, even to LL... and even if they might well often cringe when reading me. :-P Henri. From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 10 17:14:01 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:14:01 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Requesting code review - STORM-105 Create a Performance Data Tracking system Message-ID: Hi, As part of the KDU upgrade, I created that sub task solely focused on Perf Metric. I basically modified an existing hack (used only for texture rendering perf gathering) and made it work and documented it in a more general way, starting by moving it from newview to llcommon. It's not complete but it's doing something and before I sink more time in it in the next planning, I'd really appreciate feedback, comment and help from people interested in perf tracking. Do you think we can pull that in as part of sprint-3 (fully knowing we want to continue to improve it in sprint-4)? Please check the JIRA for more changeset and wiki: - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-105 Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/e16cef43/attachment.htm From latifer at streamgrid.net Fri Sep 10 17:16:24 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 02:16:24 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] STORM-106 : Chat Translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yey! On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 2:04 AM, Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > Hi, > > Just to mention that this feature has been pulled in > lindenlab/viewer-development. > > Cheers, > - Merov > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From dillydobbs at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 17:25:29 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:25:29 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL needs to make good to keep the grid alive. I would sugest that we try to improve the interface and make the viewer more usable for all. Kirsten has done a great job modifying the 2.X platform, and she seems to be moving it forward. I do agree that the new interface is clunky and it needs work but as it compares to the 1.x it is much improved. And it was my mistake. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 18:27:32 -0500, dilly dobbs wrote: > > > I would like to know 2 things, as an observer. You continue to make > > statements like 'TPV developers' as if you speak for them all. > > > > Secondly, I distinctly remember you saying goodbye to us all, Is this > your > > Hi im back statement? > > > > This isn't meant to be offensive im just trying to understand where your > > coming from. > > 1.- TPV developers seem to be agreeing with me (at least, none of > them so far denied it in this list). Same thing if to believe their > own blogs and forums... But for Kirsten and Marine (Kirsten probably > because she values most shadow rendering and other rendering > improvements in v2, and Marine because she always provided > RestrainedLove for the current official viewer), none of them so far > consider moving to the viewer 2 code base in the short term, and > several of them (at least three in this list, me included) seem > pretty much disapointed (to say the least), with LL's stance. > Oh, I also had a look to the mercurial repository for Snowstorm, > and tried to count the TPV developpers who submitted patches... > Even someone amputated with fingers on each hand, could still > count them on one hand... > Plus, in my messages on this list, I merely pointed out how, when > considering the pros and the cons of a move to viewer 2, LL's own > stance on Snowstorm is far from an encouragement to do the move, > and even less to contribute to Snowstorm. > > 2.- You should read my posts better... > I never said I'd leave, much to the contrary (I even said I'd fight > to the last extremity before I would even consider giving up); you > are probably confusing me with Aleric who just left. > > I might be blunt with LL, but they often deserve it, and I always try > to be constructive. I've got "some experience", mind you, both in RL > (counted in decades) and in SL (counted in years)... That's "where I'm > coming from"... > While my prose in this list most often only represents my personal > opinion, it might be of some value, even to LL... and even if they > might well often cringe when reading me. :-P > > Henri. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/bf8de302/attachment.htm From dave at meadowlakearts.com Fri Sep 10 18:15:04 2010 From: dave at meadowlakearts.com (Dave Booth) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 20:15:04 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C8AD818.6070301@meadowlakearts.com> On 9/10/2010 17:30, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > ROFLOL !!!! > > You are kidding, aren't you ?... If not, then please try using a good > TPV and see how many times it crashes in a week... 0 for the Cool VL > Viewer (and I'm using it every day). Fact is that TPVs got fixes that > v1.23.5 doesn't have and that makes them MUCH stabler than 1.23.5, and > v2 (which is even worst, stability-wise, than v1.23.5 !). The reason > is simple: should I crash, I trace the crash down and fix the code. > Crash gone ! Well, Henri, I've been using the daily build of viewer-development for two weeks and have only crashed once and I can definitively blame that on a video card overheat not the v2 code. I appreciate the wish to backport rather than refactor everything to match the v2 codebase but as an inworld creator for a niche market I have to switch to v2 since the primary coder in that market is also migrating. I would regret being unable to use Cool for my primary testing alt. If LL is unwilling to wrap a 1.x UI around 2.x code, then surely that is an opportunity for skilled devs like you rather than the slap in the face that you seem to be taking it as. Dave From sheet.spotter at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 19:53:38 2010 From: sheet.spotter at gmail.com (Sheet Spotter) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:53:38 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development Message-ID: <78CAFF5984774C19BEF6BFE2344EE6CF@kenb> I would like to build the viewer-development source code under Windoze. I was familiar with the Snowglobe process. Now I need to understand any changes to the build process for Project Snowstorm. The wiki instructions for the retrieving the source code and building the viewer seem out of date. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Get_source_and_compile http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds Should these pages be marked out of date and include links to the newer Project Snowstorm pages? Only the version control repository page was marked as out of date. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Version_control_repository The Project Snowstorm page links to a page that includes a discussion about retrieving the source code from the repository: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Develop_Viewer_Code I encountered two problems on the "Develop Viewer Code" page. Firstly, it took a wee while to find a client application that could retrieve the source code from the repository. Would adding links to client applications be helpful? I assume the following application is reliable: http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/ Secondly, there was a link to a "build" page that was expected to hold the build instructions. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_To_Build_The_Viewer The above page was empty. Does the viewer-development build follow the same process outlined in the original "Microsoft Windows Builds" page? Are all of the third-party applications (CMake, Cygwin, Python, etc) still required? Are Artwork and Libraries bundles from the following page still required? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads Thank you in advance for help in getting a viewer-development build happening under Windoze. Sheet Spotter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/8b2fe1c9/attachment.htm From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Fri Sep 10 20:06:46 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (Brendan Wilson) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:06:46 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development In-Reply-To: <78CAFF5984774C19BEF6BFE2344EE6CF@kenb> References: <78CAFF5984774C19BEF6BFE2344EE6CF@kenb> Message-ID: <000601cb515e$5e9e27f0$1bda77d0$@net> To answer your questions Sheet: First off viewer-development ( aka Snowstom) dose still use the same set up as you use for Snowglobe. Second http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_2_Microsoft_Windows_Builds is more current for building the viewer but it needs to be updated to include a link to the TortiosHG page so you will be able to access the new repository system. From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Sheet Spotter Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 10:54 PM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development I would like to build the viewer-development source code under Windoze. I was familiar with the Snowglobe process. Now I need to understand any changes to the build process for Project Snowstorm. The wiki instructions for the retrieving the source code and building the viewer seem out of date. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Get_source_and_compile http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds Should these pages be marked out of date and include links to the newer Project Snowstorm pages? Only the version control repository page was marked as out of date. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Version_control_repository The Project Snowstorm page links to a page that includes a discussion about retrieving the source code from the repository: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Develop_Viewer_Code I encountered two problems on the "Develop Viewer Code" page. Firstly, it took a wee while to find a client application that could retrieve the source code from the repository. Would adding links to client applications be helpful? I assume the following application is reliable: http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/ Secondly, there was a link to a "build" page that was expected to hold the build instructions. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_To_Build_The_Viewer The above page was empty. Does the viewer-development build follow the same process outlined in the original "Microsoft Windows Builds" page? Are all of the third-party applications (CMake, Cygwin, Python, etc) still required? Are Artwork and Libraries bundles from the following page still required? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads Thank you in advance for help in getting a viewer-development build happening under Windoze. Sheet Spotter No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3127 - Release Date: 09/10/10 14:41:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100910/68f53c41/attachment-0001.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Sep 11 03:52:33 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 06:52:33 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Test plans / Acceptance Criteria for Snowstorm sprint 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8B5F71.9060200@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-10 20:01, Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > > One question: how do we close (Accept) fixes? Clearly, that shouldn't > be the dev doing this (not me then on those) but how to make sure it > gets on the radar of someone? I suggest that the process be that we get some other team member to do the review and execute the Accept. The Snowstorm Jira dashboard will display any issues waiting for review. From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Sep 11 04:07:01 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 07:07:01 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development In-Reply-To: <78CAFF5984774C19BEF6BFE2344EE6CF@kenb> References: <78CAFF5984774C19BEF6BFE2344EE6CF@kenb> Message-ID: <4C8B62D5.5060702@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-10 22:53, Sheet Spotter wrote: > > I would like to build the viewer-development source code under > Windoze. I was familiar with the Snowglobe process. Now I need to > understand any changes to the build process for Project Snowstorm. > > The wiki instructions for the retrieving the source code and building > the viewer seem out of date. > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Get_source_and_compile > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds > > Should these pages be marked out of date and include links to the > newer Project Snowstorm pages? > Yes... I've added them to my list of pages to update. > Only the version control repository page was marked as out of date. > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Version_control_repository > > The Project Snowstorm page links to a page that includes a discussion > about retrieving the source code from the repository: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Develop_Viewer_Code > > I encountered two problems on the "Develop Viewer Code" page. > > Firstly, it took a wee while to find a client application that could > retrieve the source code from the repository. Would adding links to > client applications be helpful? I assume the following application is > reliable: > > http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/ > It's widely used :-) I've added a pointer to the Mercurial wiki, where many tools are listed. > Secondly, there was a link to a "build" page that was expected to hold > the build instructions. > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_To_Build_The_Viewer > > The above page was empty. > > Does the viewer-development build follow the same process outlined in > the original "Microsoft Windows Builds" page? > > Are all of the third-party applications (CMake, Cygwin, Python, etc) > still required? > > Are Artwork and Libraries bundles from the following page still required? > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads > > Thank you in advance for help in getting a viewer-development build > happening under Windoze. > And thank you for the careful description of your problems. There are some new tools coming in the next couple of weeks that will significantly simplify building, and especially getting the various dependencies. We'll update the wiki with all of that very soon, and probably hold at least one in-world tutorial session about them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/9d768d2a/attachment.htm From tateru.nino at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 05:03:49 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:03:49 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: > Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be > changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The > last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% > of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the > interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL > needs to make good to keep the grid alive. I'm afraid that figure is no better than flipping a coin. The fact is none of us has any trustworthy figures on why most of the 9000-13000 new signups each day don't log in the first time, or don't stay. The fact is that when a new user decides - for whatever reason - that SL is not for them, they log out, and none of us are likely to ever find out why. The UI could be responsible for 99% of those, or 1% of those, and we don't have any information to indicate how much of a showstopper it is. When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the problem that they had with it. Linden Lab has done studies and focus groups, apparently, so *they* might have better data than we do, but saying that the interface needs to be changed isn't necessarily any more accurate than suggesting that SL needs openid. Might be true. Might not be true. On what data do we base it, and if the UI *does* need to be changed, what changes will make things better and which ones will make things worse? The simple fact is that we don't know. If Linden Lab has better data that they're willing to share, of course, that would be *awesome*. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From mike.dickson at hp.com Sat Sep 11 06:33:19 2010 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Mike Dickson) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:33:19 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com> On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > > On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: >> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be >> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The >> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% >> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the >> interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL >> needs to make good to keep the grid alive. [snip] > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the > problem that they had with it. I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are functional and happy. Viewer 2 isn't perfect. There's lots of room for refinement and this community has a lot of good ideas about what needs to be done. But the whole Viewer 2 "the sky is falling" rhetoric from some is really counter productive. Mike From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 06:48:55 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development In-Reply-To: <78CAFF5984774C19BEF6BFE2344EE6CF@kenb> References: <78CAFF5984774C19BEF6BFE2344EE6CF@kenb> Message-ID: I know it seems somewhat risky, but it is a WIKI. If you see ways to fix it, or even just mark that it iseems out of date, that is an improvement. Lots of small improvements will make a big difference. (/me promises to put editing where mouth is.) Another thing is that usually people who work on one page or another *watch* it. So, if you or I make some change, they will check to see what it is, and then they will fix anything bad we do (because we are ignorant losers). This is a good way to prompt the people who really *do* know to make some changes that they have been putting off. Lastly, if they complain, we can moan about *true open source*... lee On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Sheet Spotter wrote: > I would like to build the viewer-development source code under Windoze. I > was familiar with the Snowglobe process. Now I need to understand any > changes to the build process for Project Snowstorm. > > > > The wiki instructions for the retrieving the source code and building the > viewer seem out of date. > > ??????????? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Get_source_and_compile > > ??????????? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds > > Should these pages be marked out of date and include links to the newer > Project Snowstorm pages? > > > > Only the version control repository page was marked as out of date. > > ??????????? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Version_control_repository > > > > The Project Snowstorm page links to a page that includes a discussion about > retrieving the source code from the repository: > > ??????????? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Develop_Viewer_Code > > > > I encountered two problems on the ?Develop Viewer Code? page. > > > > Firstly, it took a wee while to find a client application that could > retrieve the source code from the repository. Would adding links to client > applications be helpful? I assume the following application is reliable: > > http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/ > > > > Secondly, there was a link to a ?build? page that was expected to hold the > build instructions. > > ??????????? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_To_Build_The_Viewer > > The above page was empty. > > > > Does the viewer-development build follow the same process outlined in the > original ?Microsoft Windows Builds? page? > > Are all of the third-party applications (CMake, Cygwin, Python, etc) still > required? > > Are Artwork and Libraries bundles from the following page still required? > > ??????????? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Source_downloads > > > > Thank you in advance for help in getting a viewer-development build > happening under Windoze. > > > > > > Sheet Spotter > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 11 06:54:41 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:54:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> <4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com> Message-ID: <000001cb51b8$e225c6f0$a67154d0$@net> I TOTALLY agree. Instead of complaining why don't they help to improve the viewers functionality! -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Mike Dickson Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 9:33 AM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > > On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: >> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be >> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The >> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% >> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the >> interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL >> needs to make good to keep the grid alive. [snip] > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the > problem that they had with it. I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are functional and happy. Viewer 2 isn't perfect. There's lots of room for refinement and this community has a lot of good ideas about what needs to be done. But the whole Viewer 2 "the sky is falling" rhetoric from some is really counter productive. Mike _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3128 - Release Date: 09/11/10 02:34:00 From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Sep 11 06:58:45 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:58:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Building viewer-development In-Reply-To: References: <78CAFF5984774C19BEF6BFE2344EE6CF@kenb> Message-ID: <4C8B8B15.4030707@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-11 9:48, Ponzu wrote: > I know it seems somewhat risky, but it is a WIKI. If you see ways to > fix it, or even just mark that it iseems out of date, that is an > improvement. Lots of small improvements will make a big difference. > (/me promises to put editing where mouth is.) > > Another thing is that usually people who work on one page or another > *watch* it. So, if you or I make some change, they will check to see > what it is, and then they will fix anything bad we do (because we are > ignorant losers). This is a good way to prompt the people who really > *do* know to make some changes that they have been putting off. > > Lastly, if they complain, we can moan about *true open source*... > Well said. If you're not confident enough to actually make a change, you can also put whatever suggestion you have in the 'discussion' tab for that page - watchers will also be notified of those, I believe, and can pick it up and use it. From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sat Sep 11 06:59:11 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:59:11 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8B8B2F.5000904@eregion.de> Am 11.09.2010 14:03, schrieb Tateru Nino: > I'm afraid that figure is no better than flipping a coin. The fact is > none of us has any trustworthy figures on why most of the 9000-13000 > new signups each day don't log in the first time, or don't stay. How many of those are scripted bots, or just "one bowl of rice per day" goons somewhere in asia, the kind that signs up on forums to post advertizing to make a living? Guess how many of those spammy commenters I get on a few wordpress blogs that I run, even though the signup and the anon commenting is behind captchas... I don't think that any "new user" should actually be counted as a new user unless the new user actually connects to the grid at least once. I actually think that that number means "9000 - 13000 have signed up, irregardless of how many actually even just click the activation link". bye, LC From tateru.nino at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 07:05:09 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 00:05:09 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> <4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com> Message-ID: <4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote: > On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: >> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be >>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The >>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% >>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the >>> interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL >>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive. > [snip] >> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this >> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from >> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the >> problem that they had with it. > I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know > of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old > UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are > functional and happy. > Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem. What I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the problems are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 08:22:33 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:22:33 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> <4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com> <4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to second life. Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them. For instance learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on. Make it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign ups. I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and there biggest humps is learning the interface and then finding something to do. We have a very valuable mind trust in this group, we should be able to come up with something to hook them so to speak. This would make it better for us all. Just my opinion. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote: > > On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > >> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: > >>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be > >>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The > >>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% > >>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the > >>> interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL > >>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive. > > [snip] > >> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this > >> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from > >> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the > >> problem that they had with it. > > I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know > > of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old > > UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are > > functional and happy. > > > Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem. > What I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the > problems are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved. > > -- > Tateru Nino > http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/0740de80/attachment.htm From tinacloud at gmx.de Sat Sep 11 08:31:15 2010 From: tinacloud at gmx.de (Zi Ree) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:31:15 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201009111731.15295.tinacloud@gmx.de> Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs: > it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface > 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign > ups. The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out. Zi From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 08:34:35 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:34:35 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <201009111731.15295.tinacloud@gmx.de> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> <201009111731.15295.tinacloud@gmx.de> Message-ID: Agreed but it was never built into the viewer and we kept them on the noob island and well as we all know it was just a bunch of BS truly. and was really no help at all. There has to be some way to accomplish this in a intelligent manner that makes it more like an MMo intro. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Zi Ree wrote: > Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs: > > > it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the > interface > > 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign > > ups. > > The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out. > > Zi > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/7f0fe1d0/attachment.htm From schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de Sat Sep 11 08:39:12 2010 From: schlenk at uni-oldenburg.de (Michael Schlenker) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:39:12 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <201009111731.15295.tinacloud@gmx.de> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> <201009111731.15295.tinacloud@gmx.de> Message-ID: <2AFB299F-3B86-4274-ABE3-B7F7BE35A86D@uni-oldenburg.de> Am 11.09.2010 um 17:31 schrieb Zi Ree: > Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs: > >> it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface >> 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign >> ups. > > The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out. > And they failed miserably. I was stuck on one of those for a few hours till i found out how to TP away from orientation island. And it took the help of Torleys Videos to find out how to open the freebie boxes. In fact, the orientation island nearly succeeded in keeping me from ever logging in again. I was just determined enough to get past it. Michael From gcanaday at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 09:12:10 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:12:10 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <2AFB299F-3B86-4274-ABE3-B7F7BE35A86D@uni-oldenburg.de> References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> <201009111731.15295.tinacloud@gmx.de> <2AFB299F-3B86-4274-ABE3-B7F7BE35A86D@uni-oldenburg.de> Message-ID: <1284221530.1873.22.camel@glen-desktop> On Sat, 2010-09-11 at 17:39 +0200, Michael Schlenker wrote: > Am 11.09.2010 um 17:31 schrieb Zi Ree: > > > Am Samstag 11 September 2010 17:22:33 schrieb dilly dobbs: > > > >> it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface > >> 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign > >> ups. > > > > The old orientation islands had all this. It never really worked out. I'll bite, lol. How about - bringing a REWARD to the end of the quest! Say, L$10 bonus? If an account is not logged into more than once in the first 30 days, delete it and reclaim any of the awarded bonus cash? > > > And they failed miserably. I was stuck on one of those for a few hours till i found out how to TP away > from orientation island. And it took the help of Torleys Videos to find out how to open > the freebie boxes. > > In fact, the orientation island nearly succeeded in keeping me from ever logging in again. > I was just determined enough to get past it. > > Michael I'd heard "you can make real money doing this." It was stories of Anshe Chung in the press and SL coverage on slashdot that got me to try it out in the first place. I'd wanted to make something like SL years ago when I was still in school (early 90's) but didn't have the power or the knowledge to go after it. What KEPT me in it was the ability to create and to script. I wonder what the percentage of REAL n00bs trying this out is now? And for that matter, does the far higher quality of inworld merchandise and builds compared to 4 years ago have anything to do with the discouragement? Back then, EVERYTHING kind of sucked, even the things that were cool, compared to how they are now. We might have too many professionals and the bar may be set far higher than it used to be. We'll never get the "gamers." SL's UI and rendering engine aren't specific enough to any given look and feel so it can never match the inworld content, and other than its superficial resemblance, it's just not a game. There used to be a very high geek and DIY quotient in the resident pool. I get the feeling there just aren't that many left. --GC From djshag at hotmail.com Sat Sep 11 09:17:35 2010 From: djshag at hotmail.com (Patnad Babii) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:17:35 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com><4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com><20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr><20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr><4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> <4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com><4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with you Dilly, what i?ve found over time, is that alot of people just prefer to skip reading, they like things visually and orally. I?ve found a tutorial by googling quickly http://www.mmocrunch.com/2010/07/16/microvolts-releases-tutorial-video/, of what i think would work best for SL?s first exprience. Something built in the viewer with animations and voice (or not) . I know they changed orientation island recently (in the last year) i think it is a good step forward, but apparently it needs more. Its true that the MMO based tutorial seem to be the appropriate approach for what SL is, the more guidance the better i would say and always allow people to skip part of it (if they are ready, let them just go). I see the tutorial as some kind of a checklist, where you have the different checkpoint, like Navigation, Inventory, Clothing, Purchasing and if they are willing enought they could even try the building tutorial were they are shown the first steps of building. From: dilly dobbs Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:22 AM To: Tateru Nino Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to second life. Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them. For instance learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on. Make it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign ups. I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and there biggest humps is learning the interface and then finding something to do. We have a very valuable mind trust in this group, we should be able to come up with something to hook them so to speak. This would make it better for us all. Just my opinion. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote: > On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: >> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be >>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The >>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% >>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the >>> interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL >>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive. > [snip] >> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this >> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from >> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the >> problem that they had with it. > I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know > of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old > UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are > functional and happy. > Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem. What I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the problems are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/a33709a2/attachment.htm From bunny at bunnynet.org Sat Sep 11 09:26:27 2010 From: bunny at bunnynet.org (Bunny Halberd) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:26:27 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the > problem that they had with it. I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our blood. That's what we do. I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general population. When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I hear two general complaints: 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) 2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do. Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do - friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly (instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask all the questions they want. Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.) Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say "this is where I grew up". :) This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a HUGE effort to make the SL viewer "degrade gracefully." I, as a community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie, with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that. Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really wants to stay, and have things look better, but if it's not usable at all on their machine, they aren't gonna be there in the first place. I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community and LL worked together to do two things: - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully. - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some cold, sterile orientation program. - Bunny From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 09:34:53 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:34:53 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See this is what i mean, these are all great ideas, and i think that most of them can be put into practice, we just need to come to some kind of agreement on a plan, and test this plan and make it flexible so it can be changed easily to accommodate the needs that show them selves. Why not try to put a plan together and present them to LL. They want to retain users more than we do. I would think this could take months to come up with a plan but, once in place we could make a good dent in the loss of sign ups no matter what the reason. And i also think if we took our ideas to some of the major designers on the grid they would be more than happy to help. If i am off base please let me know but i think this conversation is moving in a positive direction. I would really like to thank you all for your valuable input. We as users need to save and keep the grid that we all love moving and expanding. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Bunny Halberd wrote: > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino > wrote: > > > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this > > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from > > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the > > problem that they had with it. > > I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time > helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as > a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over > ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our > blood. That's what we do. > > I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the > Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they > see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a > community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not > going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general > population. > > > When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I > hear two general complaints: > > 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason > people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) > > 2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do. > > Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do - > friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly > (instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask > all the questions they want. > > Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH > more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off > drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with > shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And > yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.) > > Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all > kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but > I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes > me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say > "this is where I grew up". :) > > > This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a > HUGE effort to make the SL viewer "degrade gracefully." I, as a > community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL > really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie, > with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that. > > Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least > they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really > wants to stay, and have things look better, but if it's not usable at > all on their machine, they aren't gonna be there in the first place. > > > I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community > and LL worked together to do two things: > > - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully. > - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as > soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as > they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some > cold, sterile orientation program. > > > - Bunny > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/c7634cb6/attachment.htm From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 09:48:14 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:48:14 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: there are also some other concerns, we have people on the grid like the Vampires that pray on n00bs (just an example) and drag them into things that they never intended to be in. Sl is about choices and freedom, i personally see the grid as true freedom of expression. Be it adult or be it RP. These are all personal choices, but in order for for them to make these choices we need to show them how to survive/use on the grid first. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:34 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: > See this is what i mean, these are all great ideas, and i think that most > of them can be put into practice, we just need to come to some kind of > agreement on a plan, and test this plan and make it flexible so it can be > changed easily to accommodate the needs that show them selves. Why not try > to put a plan together and present them to LL. They want to retain users > more than we do. I would think this could take months to come up with a plan > but, once in place we could make a good dent in the loss of sign ups no > matter what the reason. > > And i also think if we took our ideas to some of the major designers on the > grid they would be more than happy to help. > > > If i am off base please let me know but i think this conversation is moving > in a positive direction. > > I would really like to thank you all for your valuable input. > > We as users need to save and keep the grid that we all love moving and > expanding. > > > I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by > > Douglas Adams > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Bunny Halberd wrote: > >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Tateru Nino >> wrote: >> >> > When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this >> > Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from >> > people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the >> > problem that they had with it. >> >> I've been in SL since late 2006. I have spent most of that time >> helping to run a community that's extremely newbie friendly. (First as >> a member, and eventually one of the lead admins.) We fall over >> ourselves to help newbies feel welcome into Second Life... it's in our >> blood. That's what we do. >> >> I am fairly convinced that if a newbie can get past whatever the >> Newbie Island thing of the month is, make it pass the first folks they >> see (that are sometimes there to prey on newbies) and get to a >> community like ours, the chance of them staying goes *WAY* up. I'm not >> going to venture a guess, but it's WAY better than the general >> population. >> >> >> When I talk to newbies about Second Life, and I do this constantly, I >> hear two general complaints: >> >> 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason >> people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) >> >> 2.) There's nothing to do / I can't find anything to do. >> >> Our community helps with item #2. We give them something to do - >> friendly folks to chat with, events to do, people that are friendly >> (instead of hostile) to newbies, and the freedom to go explore and ask >> all the questions they want. >> >> Here's the weird thing - if you can meet criteria #2, they are MUCH >> more likely to put up with #1. We have folks that will turn off >> drawing avatars (thus turning SL into a glorified chat room with >> shared music) when things get busy just so they can be there. (And >> yes, we tell them how to do that if they need to.) >> >> Once folks get familiar with SL and its ways, they start finding all >> kinds of other things to do and eventually leave our community, but >> I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't look back at us fondly. It makes >> me smile when folks come back a year later with friends in tow and say >> "this is where I grew up". :) >> >> >> This group can help with item #1. I really think there needs to be a >> HUGE effort to make the SL viewer "degrade gracefully." I, as a >> community leader, have a computer I keep upgraded just so I can run SL >> really well. I have to - it's part of my job. But your average newbie, >> with a several year old machine, isn't going to have that. >> >> Sure, they're not going to see the same thing *I* see, but at least >> they'd be there... computers are upgradeable if the person really >> wants to stay, and have things look better, but if it's not usable at >> all on their machine, they aren't gonna be there in the first place. >> >> >> I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community >> and LL worked together to do two things: >> >> - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades gracefully. >> - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as >> soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as >> they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some >> cold, sterile orientation program. >> >> >> - Bunny >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/7a3699e9/attachment-0001.htm From mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com Sat Sep 11 09:49:41 2010 From: mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com (mysticaldemina at xrgrid.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:49:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com><4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com><20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr><20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr><4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com><4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com><4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think it goes further than that. The trick to making it simple is to make it so intuitive that the user knows instinctively what to do. This basically means creating things that we are already familiar with. It is not intuitive to navigate, need a navigation HUD that is so obvious you know what to do. The use of inventory is not intuitive and you have to figure out how to wear stuff, how to take stuff off. What I am even wearing. I can't preview easy. Just as an example should be a changing room or something. How do I know I can do animations, how do I see which ones do what? The user interface is using a 2D solution that hasn't evolved in 20 years. Not intuitive to know where to go. Maps, other things need to be more familiar. The grid map is so uninteresting and not intuitive. Showcase and search are not clear. This whole problem of new user experience is more than viewer 1, or viewer 2, it has to do with the whole concept of how users understand what they see and relate that to what they know. Nothing about this interface, except the actual 3D space is familiar in anyway. I think this is why I find the viewer 2 UI so disappointing; it brought nothing new to the table on how to do user-interfaces. A few things that could help is making the user interface more active, meaning objects that can do something show they can do something when the mouse if over them. A Tool tips area on the screen that gives you information about the object your mouse is over some where on the screen. Option for descriptive menus that explain option, or short menus. Wizards that tell you what step you are on. People say it isn't a game, but many games have made significant progress in user interface design, I don't see any of this being implemented. All I have heard about viewer 2 UI is it solved some of the technical issues to maintain the complexity of the UI. I haven't really heard how it solves the use cases of the user or content designer. User wears clothes. User navigates. User puts new object in world, User creates and object. User finds an object in their inventory. User wants to find something to do. Few other notes, is it is stressful to learn something new, need to reward the user. Give them something, make it fun. Play videos that show them, then they do it. Don't know, but lots that can be done. M. _____ From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Patnad Babii Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:18 PM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe I agree with you Dilly, what i've found over time, is that alot of people just prefer to skip reading, they like things visually and orally. I've found a tutorial by googling quickly http://www.mmocrunch.com/2010/07/16/microvolts-releases-tutorial-video/, of what i think would work best for SL's first exprience. Something built in the viewer with animations and voice (or not) . I know they changed orientation island recently (in the last year) i think it is a good step forward, but apparently it needs more. Its true that the MMO based tutorial seem to be the appropriate approach for what SL is, the more guidance the better i would say and always allow people to skip part of it (if they are ready, let them just go). I see the tutorial as some kind of a checklist, where you have the different checkpoint, like Navigation, Inventory, Clothing, Purchasing and if they are willing enought they could even try the building tutorial were they are shown the first steps of building. From: dilly dobbs Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:22 AM To: Tateru Nino Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to second life. Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them. For instance learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on. Make it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign ups. I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and there biggest humps is learning the interface and then finding something to do. We have a very valuable mind trust in this group, we should be able to come up with something to hook them so to speak. This would make it better for us all. Just my opinion. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote: > On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: >> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be >>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The >>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% >>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the >>> interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL >>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive. > [snip] >> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this >> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from >> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the >> problem that they had with it. > I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know > of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old > UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are > functional and happy. > Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem. What I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the problems are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges _____ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/ce6a384c/attachment.htm From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 09:55:59 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:55:59 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C86E61C.6070305@lindenlab.com> <4C8A5B41.5030105@lindenlab.com> <20100911003019.5ef2610c.sldev@free.fr> <20100911021356.6f1d0a63.sldev@free.fr> <4C8B7025.2080201@gmail.com> <4C8B851F.2090709@hp.com> <4C8B8C95.4090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have to say that i can not disagree with anything you said. These are all great ideas and we as the devs (well not me , i cant code my way out of a paper bag) need to push things like this to keep the users that we so value. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:49 AM, wrote: > I think it goes further than that. The trick to making it simple is to > make it so intuitive that the user knows instinctively what to do. This > basically means creating things that we are already familiar with. It is > not intuitive to navigate, need a navigation HUD that is so obvious you know > what to do. The use of inventory is not intuitive and you have to figure > out how to wear stuff, how to take stuff off. What I am even wearing. I > can?t preview easy. Just as an example should be a changing room or > something. How do I know I can do animations, how do I see which ones do > what? The user interface is using a 2D solution that hasn?t evolved in 20 > years. Not intuitive to know where to go. Maps, other things need to be > more familiar. The grid map is so uninteresting and not intuitive. > Showcase and search are not clear. > > > > This whole problem of new user experience is more than viewer 1, or viewer > 2, it has to do with the whole concept of how users understand what they see > and relate that to what they know. Nothing about this interface, except the > actual 3D space is familiar in anyway. I think this is why I find the > viewer 2 UI so disappointing; it brought nothing new to the table on how to > do user-interfaces. > > > > A few things that could help is making the user interface more active, > meaning objects that can do something show they can do something when the > mouse if over them. A Tool tips area on the screen that gives you > information about the object your mouse is over some where on the screen. > Option for descriptive menus that explain option, or short menus. Wizards > that tell you what step you are on. > > > > People say it isn?t a game, but many games have made significant progress > in user interface design, I don?t see any of this being implemented. > > > > All I have heard about viewer 2 UI is it solved some of the technical > issues to maintain the complexity of the UI. I haven?t really heard how it > solves the use cases of the user or content designer. User wears clothes. > User navigates. User puts new object in world, User creates and object. > User finds an object in their inventory. User wants to find something to > do. > > > > Few other notes, is it is stressful to learn something new, need to reward > the user. Give them something, make it fun. Play videos that show them, > then they do it. Don?t know, but lots that can be done. > > > > M. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto: > opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Patnad Babii > *Sent:* Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:18 PM > *To:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe > > > > I agree with you Dilly, what i?ve found over time, is that alot of people > just prefer to skip reading, they like things visually and orally. > > > > I?ve found a tutorial by googling quickly > http://www.mmocrunch.com/2010/07/16/microvolts-releases-tutorial-video/, > of what i think would work best for SL?s first exprience. Something built in > the viewer with animations and voice (or not) . > > > > I know they changed orientation island recently (in the last year) i think > it is a good step forward, but apparently it needs more. > > > > Its true that the MMO based tutorial seem to be the appropriate approach > for what SL is, the more guidance the better i would say and always allow > people to skip part of it (if they are ready, let them just go). > > > > I see the tutorial as some kind of a checklist, where you have the > different checkpoint, like Navigation, Inventory, Clothing, Purchasing and > if they are willing enought they could even try the building tutorial were > they are shown the first steps of building. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* dilly dobbs > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:22 AM > > *To:* Tateru Nino > > *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] The Plan for Snowglobe > > > > Ok if its not the interface that is the issue, then i have an other idea > also, after speaking to a lot of mmo players they are lost when it comes to > second life. Why not have some "quests" to start the game for them. For > instance learn to tp to this location to get clothes and put them on. Make > it more like a game with a limited number of opening/learning the interface > 'quests' so to speak. There has to be some way to keep all of the sign ups. > > > > > I my self have tried to bring a lot of other mmo players into the grid and > there biggest humps is learning the interface and then finding something to > do. > > > > We have a very valuable mind trust in this group, we should be able to come > up with something to hook them so to speak. > > > > This would make it better for us all. > > > > Just my opinion. > > > I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by > > Douglas Adams > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tateru Nino > wrote: > > On 11/09/2010 11:33 PM, Mike Dickson wrote: > > On 09/11/2010 08:03 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > >> On 11/09/2010 10:25 AM, dilly dobbs wrote: > >>> Fair enough, but the simple fact is that the interface needs to be > >>> changed so that they can reclaim more of the sign ups to the grid. The > >>> last numbers i have read on the learning curve is something like 70% > >>> of the users that sign up leave because they have troubles with the > >>> interface. And we must also consider that this is a business and LL > >>> needs to make good to keep the grid alive. > > [snip] > >> When you read various responses to "Hey, have any of you tried this > >> Second Life thing?" there's usually quite a number of responses from > >> people who did and gave up. Hardly any of them mention the UI as the > >> problem that they had with it. > > I strongly disagree with you there. True its not scientific but I know > > of more than a few people personally who couldn't navigate with the old > > UI and gave up. They recently tried again with viewer 2 and are > > functional and happy. > > > > Which is fine, because I also didn't say that the UI *wasn't* a problem. > What I'm saying is that we don't have any trustworthy data about what the > problems are, how prevalent they are, or how the situation can be improved. > > > -- > Tateru Nino > http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/39456a8d/attachment-0001.htm From robertltux at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 10:43:43 2010 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:43:43 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The things that i see as problems 1 folks seem to more or less "sleepwalk" through the newbie portal so that we folks in Help areas (i stalk NCI Kuula myself) get asked questions that are answered in the newbie portal. 2 folks seem to tp into the area and have no clue where they have arrived at (folks wanting sex drugs and Roc^HGuns in the NCI area) 3 non english folks that seem to be using telegraph keys to log in that also are completely clueless 4 folks (like Bloodlines) that seem to not understand that a given area may actually have and enforce rules above what the TOS states now of course the UI confusing folks and getting in the way of operating the program DOES NOT HELP 1 this may not be solveable but a general increase in server/sim stability and performance will help 2 a One time popup in case of a newbie portal tp in the form of "You have just teleported to %area_name% @ %simpleSLurl% please note the following [short list of flags] This is a %rating_area% for more details see attached notecard" 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie pack??) 4 this may require having a Land Group (above X regions held) to be assigned a Linden (or have access to a pool of Lindens) so that a person grazing the TOS could have a Linden Issued Abuse Report "on the spot" (this would fast track any process since a Linden could "certify" the AR right then and there) in short if "we" take care of the problem of "chewtoys" then newbies may stick around more -- Robert L Martin From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 10:52:20 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:52:20 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, should there be a group formed that could address the concerns that we all seem to have on how to improve the n00b experience in SL? We could have meetings and come up with a general direction to take development. And or make proposals to take to LL even if it was in a forum like the dev mailing list. Out of all of the ideas that i have head i have yet to hear one that is not valid and that would require consideration. We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. Opinions, and ideas on this ? I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > The things that i see as problems > > 1 folks seem to more or less "sleepwalk" through the newbie portal so > that we folks in Help areas (i stalk NCI Kuula myself) get asked > questions that are answered in the newbie portal. > > 2 folks seem to tp into the area and have no clue where they have > arrived at (folks wanting sex drugs and Roc^HGuns in the NCI area) > > 3 non english folks that seem to be using telegraph keys to log in > that also are completely clueless > > 4 folks (like Bloodlines) that seem to not understand that a given > area may actually have and enforce rules above what the TOS states > > now of course the UI confusing folks and getting in the way of > operating the program DOES NOT HELP > > 1 this may not be solveable but a general increase in server/sim > stability and performance will help > > 2 a One time popup in case of a newbie portal tp in the form of "You > have just teleported to %area_name% @ %simpleSLurl% please note the > following [short list of flags] This is a %rating_area% for more > details see attached notecard" > > 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and > if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available > in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie > pack??) > > 4 this may require having a Land Group (above X regions held) to be > assigned a Linden (or have access to a pool of Lindens) so that a > person grazing the TOS could have a Linden Issued Abuse Report "on the > spot" (this would fast track any process since a Linden could > "certify" the AR right then and there) > > > in short if "we" take care of the problem of "chewtoys" then newbies > may stick around more > > > > -- > Robert L Martin > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/7a52e480/attachment.htm From robertltux at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 11:05:05 2010 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:05:05 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: > We all seem like?intelligent?adults that could come to an agreement on how > to add?priority?to the issues that we would like to see addressed. ?And yes > i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. > Opinions, and ideas on this ? I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an indoor type inworld location for this?? -- Robert L Martin From tateru.nino at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 11:11:45 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 04:11:45 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8BC661.9090901@gmail.com> Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the viewer is kind of out-of-scope. On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >> Opinions, and ideas on this ? > I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an > indoor type inworld location for this?? > -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 11:11:17 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (Dilly Dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:11:17 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8BC645.3080502@gmail.com> On 9/11/2010 1:05 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >> Opinions, and ideas on this ? > I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an > indoor type inworld location for this?? > I think that i would be able to provide us with a meeting place on the grid. My wife i am sure would be willing to give us a meeting place on the grid. And i would be willing to foot the group costs as long as they don't get out of control. dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 11:13:05 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (Dilly Dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:13:05 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <4C8BC661.9090901@gmail.com> References: <4C8BC661.9090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8BC6B1.2010600@gmail.com> On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to > viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the > viewer is kind of out-of-scope. > > On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >>> Opinions, and ideas on this ? >> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an >> indoor type inworld location for this?? >> I would think that we will be coming up with viewer changes and feature requests and or stories to contribute to the list. dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams From dillydobbs at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 11:39:10 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (Dilly Dobbs) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:39:10 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <4C8BC661.9090901@gmail.com> References: <4C8BC661.9090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8BCCCE.30203@gmail.com> On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to > viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the > viewer is kind of out-of-scope. > > On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >>> Opinions, and ideas on this ? >> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an >> indoor type inworld location for this?? >> Any one that would like to participate in something like this please feel free to send me an IM in world and we can get the ball rolling. Dilly Dawes in world Thanks Dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sat Sep 11 11:59:26 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:59:26 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201009112059.27024.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Samstag 11 September 2010 schrieb Robert Martin: > 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer > and if the resident could be informed as to what languages are > available in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the > default newbie pack??) http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetAgentLanguage there. Ferd's google translator uses that to autodetect languages. bye, LC From qieniangao at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 12:27:38 2010 From: qieniangao at gmail.com (Qie Niangao) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:27:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) Message-ID: > 3 it would help if we could read the language in use by the viewer and > if the resident could be informed as to what languages are available > in that area (or maybe stick a translator thing in the default newbie > pack??) [...] > -- > Robert L Martin In case it helps, a script can almost always learn the viewer language with llGetAgentLanguage(). I had a multilingual info station for adult verification that did that, and used agent-specific parcel media to show excerpts of wiki pages in the viewer's choice of language. I learned that almost nobody hides their viewer language. But a few folks took umbrage, insisting that they only set their viewer language to Outer Slobovian because they liked the way it punctuated numbers, or some damned thing, and I shouldn't assume that they wanted content to match the language of their viewer. Were I to do it over again, I might simply have national flags for them to select, and keep track of who clicked which flag. From missannotoole at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 15:18:32 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <4C8BCCCE.30203@gmail.com> References: <4C8BC661.9090901@gmail.com> <4C8BCCCE.30203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505232.76523.qm@web120515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sitearm Madonna just hosted a discussion on this topic today. Perhaps you should contact Sitearm for a transcript. ________________________________ From: Dilly Dobbs To: Tateru Nino Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 2:39:10 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) On 9/11/2010 1:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to > viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the > viewer is kind of out-of-scope. > > On 12/09/2010 4:05 AM, Robert Martin wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >>> Opinions, and ideas on this ? >> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an >> indoor type inworld location for this?? >> Any one that would like to participate in something like this please feel free to send me an IM in world and we can get the ball rolling. Dilly Dawes in world Thanks Dilly -- I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100911/7510608d/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 16:20:56 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:20:56 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1-bit alpha textures Message-ID: I seem to recall something about 1-bit alpha textures (the same that the Linden trees use) being usable in viewer 2. I was looking for it the other day and couldn't find it, and a Leben Schnabel just asked me about it. Apparently it's in another of the beta clients, but isn't in the main viewer 2. Did this get lost somewhere? Is it done? Is it hidden? I'm rather uninformed at the moment, so I apologize if this is obvious. Thanks, Stickman Ingmann Seawolf From malachi at tamzap.com Sat Sep 11 19:55:09 2010 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:55:09 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source Message-ID: Where can I download the latest snowstorm source code? the wiki is a bit confusing. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From danielravennest at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 20:05:43 2010 From: danielravennest at gmail.com (Daniel) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:05:43 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Signups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8C4387.4040307@gmail.com> I wrote most of a User's Manual on the wiki for v1.23: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User%27s_Manual Perhaps if they had gotten something like that in the registration email - either a document, or links to tutorials and manuals, it would help them figure out how to use the software? Viewer 2.0 does have built in help (which after 6 years the 1.x series never did), so that's a big step forward, but my thought is hit them with the information even before they log in the first time. If they choose not to use it, well, not much you can do about that. From mrfrans at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 21:04:14 2010 From: mrfrans at gmail.com (Frans) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 06:04:14 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1-bit alpha textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I assume you are talking about Avatar Alpha Masks. It's in the viewer 2+, and 1.23 has backwards compatibility. It is for avatars, so you can make (parts of) the avatar invisible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8UDHD2S_-I -- Jeroen Frans Virtual World Technology Specialist @ http://VesuviusGroup.com Second Life: Frans Charming blog about SL @ http://secondslog.blogspot.com On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Stickman wrote: > I seem to recall something about 1-bit alpha textures (the same that > the Linden trees use) being usable in viewer 2. I was looking for it > the other day and couldn't find it, and a Leben Schnabel just asked me > about it. Apparently it's in another of the beta clients, but isn't in > the main viewer 2. > > Did this get lost somewhere? Is it done? Is it hidden? I'm rather > uninformed at the moment, so I apologize if this is obvious. > > Thanks, > > Stickman Ingmann > Seawolf > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/5f4db9b7/attachment.htm From ardylay at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 23:08:35 2010 From: ardylay at gmail.com (Ardy Lay) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 01:08:35 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> On 9/11/2010 9:55 PM, malachi wrote: > Where can I download the latest snowstorm source code? the wiki is a bit > confusing. > > Source is live and right here: https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development Read a little for some background and pointers. Link to source is in the wiki, which is being reorganized a lot to reflect the new processes. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Snowstorm From stickman at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 01:13:33 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 01:13:33 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1-bit alpha textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:04 PM, Frans wrote: > I assume you are talking about Avatar Alpha Masks. It's in the viewer 2+, > and 1.23 has backwards compatibility. It is for avatars, so you can make > (parts of) the avatar invisible. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8UDHD2S_-I I was referring to what's mentioned in this Jira, actually: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6713 I'm not seeing any promises in the comments, but I could have sworn it was supposed to be in viewer 2 somewhere. Anyone have information about what was planned for it that isn't in the Jira? Stickman From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 02:07:25 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 02:07:25 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1-bit alpha textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Stickman wrote: > I was referring to what's mentioned in this Jira, actually: > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6713 That issue is unresolved. > I'm not seeing any promises in the comments, but I could have sworn it > was supposed to be in viewer 2 somewhere. Anyone have information > about what was planned for it that isn't in the Jira? The viewer has had an option for many years now to force all alpha channels down to 1 bit. This fixes most all the alpha sorting problems but it also breaks content (mostly hair and particles). Viewer 1 Advanced -> Render -> Fast Alpha Viewer 2-2.1 Develop -> Render -> Fast Alpha Snowglobe 2.1 & viewer-development -> Develop -> Render -> Automatic Alpha Masking (with separate options for deferred and non deferred) From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Sun Sep 12 03:59:28 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:59:28 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <4C8BC661.9090901@gmail.com> References: <4C8BC661.9090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8CB290.20902@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 09/11/2010 08:11 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Well, as far as this mailing list goes, it should largely be kept to > viewer features/changes/improvements. Anything that happens beyond the > viewer is kind of out-of-scope. I think the discussion would be very on-topic on the sl-ux mailing list , so why not move it there? cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/24a28594/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Sun Sep 12 06:22:22 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:22:22 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build Message-ID: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in our current development viewer. Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) I added some detail to the issue description. It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it (might we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to suppress the problem). From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sun Sep 12 06:29:38 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:29:38 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201009121529.38670.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Sonntag 12 September 2010 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in > SNOW-745 in our current development viewer. > Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) > > I added some detail to the issue description. > > It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it > (might we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That > appears to suppress the problem). > I think that might be a bad idea... as already discussed here, 90% of new residents leave right away because their hardware is just not up to it. Forcing athmospheric shaders would raise the bar even higher. bye, LC From sythos at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 06:57:41 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:57:41 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] 1-bit alpha textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100912155741.7056f7c9.sythos@gmail.com> On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 02:07:25 -0700 leliel wrote: > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Stickman wrote: > > I was referring to what's mentioned in this Jira, actually: > > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-6713 > > That issue is unresolved. > > > I'm not seeing any promises in the comments, but I could have sworn > > it was supposed to be in viewer 2 somewhere. Anyone have information > > about what was planned for it that isn't in the Jira? > > The viewer has had an option for many years now to force all alpha > channels down to 1 bit. This fixes most all the alpha sorting problems > but it also breaks content (mostly hair and particles). > > Viewer 1 Advanced -> Render -> Fast Alpha > Viewer 2-2.1 Develop -> Render -> Fast Alpha > Snowglobe 2.1 & viewer-development -> Develop -> Render -> Automatic > Alpha Masking (with separate options for deferred and non deferred) it work fine, enabling both alpha masking i cannot find others issue with tree, hair or glasses. Dunno how viewer enable it (enabling both i loss 3-4% of FPS), i usually use "high" and sometime "ultra" (for take photos), *imho* this issue may be marked fixed since alpha masking (def and no-def) avaiable From sythos at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 06:59:23 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:59:23 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100912155923.a05209bd.sythos@gmail.com> On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:22:22 -0400 "Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)" wrote: > I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 SNOW-745 is about timestamp/chat log... are you sure about numbers? (or maybe is new jira too weird for me) From bunny at bunnynet.org Sun Sep 12 07:03:35 2010 From: bunny at bunnynet.org (Bunny Halberd) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:03:35 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > It's very irritating. ? I think we need to do something about it (might > we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? ?That appears to > suppress the problem). Horrible idea -- turning those off is one of your first lines of defense when "SL is so laggy I can't type". - Bunny From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Sun Sep 12 07:07:52 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:07:52 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C8CDEB8.7030005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 09/12/2010 03:22 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in > our current development viewer. > Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) You probably mean SNOW-7*54* . > I added some detail to the issue description. > > It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it Indeed. Would be helpful if someone can track down the changeset that introduced this error (e.g. with hg bisect), so we can see what exactly changed there. Would probably take quite some build cycles, though. > (might > we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to > suppress the problem). Not a good idea. This used to work correctly, so there must be another fix. Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/51458780/attachment.htm From sythos at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 07:09:47 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:09:47 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100912160947.0526f6db.sythos@gmail.com> On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:03:35 -0500 Bunny Halberd wrote: > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) > wrote: > > > It's very irritating. ? I think we need to do something about it > > (might we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? ?That > > appears to suppress the problem). > > Horrible idea -- turning those off is one of your first lines of > defense when "SL is so laggy I can't type". i think there is somethng to fix in "system requirements" on secondlife.com, actual viewer run on a pc matched on minimal requirement with 4-6fps with "low" graphic detail and no other tweaks on advanced menu neither debug settings... From tillie at xp2.de Sun Sep 12 07:24:17 2010 From: tillie at xp2.de (Tillie Ariantho) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:24:17 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <201009121529.38670.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <201009121529.38670.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4C8CE291.90105@xp2.de> On 12.09.2010 15:29, Lance Corrimal wrote: >> It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it >> (might we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That >> appears to suppress the problem). > I think that might be a bad idea... as already discussed here, 90% of > new residents leave right away because their hardware is just not up > to it. Forcing athmospheric shaders would raise the bar even higher. Are there any statistics out there about what kind of hardware people have? Tillie From sythos at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 07:32:35 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:32:35 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CE291.90105@xp2.de> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <201009121529.38670.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C8CE291.90105@xp2.de> Message-ID: <20100912163235.44e8c02a.sythos@gmail.com> On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:24:17 +0200 Tillie Ariantho wrote: > > I think that might be a bad idea... as already discussed here, 90% > > of new residents leave right away because their hardware is just > > not up to it. Forcing athmospheric shaders would raise the bar even > > higher. > > Are there any statistics out there about what kind of hardware people > have? if i'm right latest viewers by LL have some data collector (KDU sure, seen on changelogs, dunno if other), may be interesting if some other data collection (anonymous) can be collected (and ask to other viewers teams to do same, always anonymous), checking to be unique (using uP serial number as ID for database?) From sythos at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 07:53:27 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:53:27 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100912165327.69ebd0dc.sythos@gmail.com> On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:26:27 -0500 Bunny Halberd wrote: > 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason > people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as 90%!) this point have no viewer side solutions :) > I think a lot of headway could be made if the open source community > and LL worked together to do two things: > > - Give newbies a fighting chance with a viewer that degrades > gracefully. > - Provide an easy pathway for newbies to find groups like ours as > soon as they're first rezzed in. Give them something to do as soon as > they rezz in. Show them how wonderful the SL *PEOPLE* are, not some > cold, sterile orientation program. i wish add an old "solution": menthors now all viewer can detect language used by resident before he/she login, in place of a unique help-island may be more interesting create one each language and ask to old menthors to hangout here all this isn't related to code, maybe elsewhere will be a better place where discuss deeper about this topic From sythos at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 07:54:07 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:54:07 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] [POLICY] Banning TPV not on the TPV list In-Reply-To: <4C8A4599.9030701@lindenlab.com> References: <1283989503.28269.7.camel@nostromo> <-5775365832052285643@unknownmsgid> <4C8A4599.9030701@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100912165407.ca799d34.sythos@gmail.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:50:01 -0400 "Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)" wrote: > >> > You said "imho*ALL* non TPV listed viewers should be > >> > blacklisted...." > > All viewers must comply with the Third Party Viewer Policy. > > Viewers in the directory are ones that have certified that they are > compliant - viewers not in the directory may or may not be compliant, > but it's up to the user to determine that. > > Using a non-compliant viewer or distributing one are both ToS > violations. > > None of this is really an opensource-dev topic, however. i think is related to opensource too, a lot of "developers" don't know the differences between an opensource viewer and a businness ToS, by the way some "Linden" are here a lot of people believe server's services provided by LL are "open" too. A missing information (or missing people skill to RTFM and read ToS) can cause only damage to OpenSource project like this. People *MUST* understand this is an opensource project, sponsored by LL but LL?s services (like the grid) are another pair of shoes. A lot of developers here (or outside here) don't understand tossing a patch here isn't "gift code to LL" but is "gift code to community" (real meaning of opensource). My experiences in opensource projects sponsored by company with a own businness is quite low, i've only worked on Familiar Linux 11-12years ago (sponsored by COMPAQ, before COMPAQ sold handhelds division to HP). Developement model and flow was simple but it work (not so far from this one used here, just a bit more documented). I wish share it here, maybe may be usefull to tuneup. Is like a pyramid, on lower slice everybody with rights enabled can throw patches, rules to accept patches in this step are easy: - no warning neither error - other code don't be broken by a patch (if add feature A, and A work but broke feature B isn't good) - base guidelines matching (no features with negative behaviour, viewer example may be copybot features) Step after some skilled/old developers review each patch, and fit them in a controlled way to check aftermath on global code, this step generate a daily build for a initial check or compiled cource, where few tester can diagnose what don't work and why) only after a opensource QA check the patch if match sponsor/hoster requirements [alpha stage] If it compile, if no bad aftermath, if no other code reason, the patch is checked by sponsor/hoster QA, if ok the patch will be slided on "beta stage", where a wider spread of tester (less skilled, just to detect if something don't work, with the requirement to diagnose why not work) to let release run on a wider kind of operating system and hardware last step before "Release" is like a "release candidate", where all people, developers, tester and other test the code on a broad-spectrum variety of OS, hardware, entwork conditions, field applications (busy sim, lag). if to last step all work patch drop in release code, witha very low requirement of handwork requirement by sponsor/hoster (in THIS case, LL businness is provide grid and services, not do babysitting to opensource viewer ;) ) and, obviously... a bug will be discovered after 2 minth of running code as "release" if now the workflow already is this ia sk excuse... but maybe better if somebody add mroe details on wiki/else why not so clear and i believe a lot of coder/developers/other_viewer_teams don't know/understand how use all these tools provided with this project to create a better viewer... especially top steps aren't clear... From wolfpup67 at earthlink.net Sun Sep 12 07:55:44 2010 From: wolfpup67 at earthlink.net (WolfPup Lowenhar) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:55:44 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CDEB8.7030005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <4C8CDEB8.7030005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <000601cb528a$93c3ac70$bb4b0550$@net> Yes SNOW-754 is the right issue as I was the one that reported it and that had appeared after a fix for higher altitude water flickering was put into the code for SG. Also thinking about having Atmospheric Shaders defaulted to on would severally affect those that are on older systems like my roommate that are already running at very low FPS now. From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Boroondas Gupte Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 10:08 AM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build On 09/12/2010 03:22 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in our current development viewer. Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) You probably mean SNOW-7 54. I added some detail to the issue description. It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it Indeed. Would be helpful if someone can track down the changeset that introduced this error (e.g. with hg bisect), so we can see what exactly changed there. Would probably take quite some build cycles, though. (might we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to suppress the problem). Not a good idea. This used to work correctly, so there must be another fix. Cheers, Boroondas No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3130 - Release Date: 09/12/10 02:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/a4a3e760/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sun Sep 12 09:01:30 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 18:01:30 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <20100912165327.69ebd0dc.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100912165327.69ebd0dc.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201009121801.30724.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Sonntag 12 September 2010 schrieb Altair "Sythos" Memo: > > 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason > > people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as > > 90%!) > > this point have no viewer side solutions :) actually it has... "do not add more shinies that raise the hardware requirements even higher"... bye, LC From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 09:01:56 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:01:56 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <000601cb528a$93c3ac70$bb4b0550$@net> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <4C8CDEB8.7030005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <000601cb528a$93c3ac70$bb4b0550$@net> Message-ID: Several years ago, some Linden posted a table that showed the typical range of FPS for various graphics cards. At the time I thought that was a very interesting piece of data, and am sad to have never seen it again (maybe I missed it). For one thing, you could look at *your* graphic card, and if you were typical, you could stop whining about low fps. It could likewise be helpful for shoppers. I see fps messages in the logs. Why not capture those and keep the data online somewhere. regards, lee From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 09:07:54 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:07:54 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <201009121801.30724.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <20100912165327.69ebd0dc.sythos@gmail.com> <201009121801.30724.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Lance Corrimal wrote: > Am Sonntag 12 September 2010 schrieb Altair "Sythos" Memo: >> > 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason >> > people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as >> > 90%!) >> >> this point have no viewer side solutions :) > > > actually it has... "do not add more shinies that raise the hardware > requirements even higher"... Most of these people have machines that don't even support the shinies so that what does it matter if we add them? And adding support for shinies such as volumetric lighting would get rid of those ugly semi transparent cones around lights and speed things up for people on low end machines that have it disabled. See, it's a win win situation, I get my shinies and they get better performace. From djshag at hotmail.com Sun Sep 12 09:54:41 2010 From: djshag at hotmail.com (Patnad Babii) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:54:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <201009121801.30724.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <20100912165327.69ebd0dc.sythos@gmail.com> <201009121801.30724.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: If LL plan to get more people in, they better lower those requirement, make a low-definition viewer if it can't be done in the current one. Give them minimal tools so they can still connect and enjoy second life. It's true that SL doesn't work everywhere, but the web does. This is in most part why the web is STILL so popular. If the 3D web want to get more people interested it have to lower that entry bar, people really take a while to upgrade their hardware. Lots of people having still 5-10 years old computer and we need to get these people in too. Just my taught but im no specialist. -----Message d'origine----- From: Lance Corrimal Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 12:01 PM To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) Am Sonntag 12 September 2010 schrieb Altair "Sythos" Memo: > > 1.) My computer can't handle it. (This is, by far, the #1 reason > > people leave SL after trying it, I'm convinced. Maybe as high as > > 90%!) > > this point have no viewer side solutions :) actually it has... "do not add more shinies that raise the hardware requirements even higher"... bye, LC _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From Celierra at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 10:18:15 2010 From: Celierra at gmail.com (Celierra Darling) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:18:15 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <4C8CDEB8.7030005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <000601cb528a$93c3ac70$bb4b0550$@net> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Ponzu wrote: > Several years ago, some Linden posted a table that showed the typical > range of FPS for various graphics cards. At the time I thought that > was a very interesting piece of data, and am sad to have never seen it > again (maybe I missed it). > The chart is still up, but I don't think it's been updated very recently... http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Typical_Frame_Rate_Performance_by_Graphics_Card/GPU Celi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/c70bacce/attachment-0001.htm From tateru.nino at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 10:22:54 2010 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 03:22:54 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <4C8CDEB8.7030005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <000601cb528a$93c3ac70$bb4b0550$@net> Message-ID: <4C8D0C6E.9040507@gmail.com> On 13/09/2010 3:18 AM, Celierra Darling wrote: > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Ponzu > wrote: > > Several years ago, some Linden posted a table that showed the typical > range of FPS for various graphics cards. At the time I thought that > was a very interesting piece of data, and am sad to have never seen it > again (maybe I missed it). > > The chart is still up, but I don't think it's been updated very > recently... > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Typical_Frame_Rate_Performance_by_Graphics_Card/GPU > Another aspect to the numbers there is that (quite often) users will crank up visual features until frame-rates become just short of intolerable or unusable. That tends to make the results trend downwards. They *could* be higher for the same hardware, but many of us will crank up our quality and distance settings until the viewer is on the edge of shuddering -- and increase our crash-rates in the process. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/4e56fb44/attachment.htm From yoz at lindenlab.com Sun Sep 12 10:43:52 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 10:43:52 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Might be worth running this past Team Shining, especially since they've worked on some major speed improvements to water recently. No idea how close they are to merging. On 12 September 2010 06:22, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in > our current development viewer. > Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) > > I added some detail to the issue description. > > It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it (might > we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to > suppress the problem). > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/6215feb4/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Sun Sep 12 11:02:15 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:02:15 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201009122002.16120.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Sonntag 12 September 2010 schrieb Celierra Darling: > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Ponzu wrote: > > Several years ago, some Linden posted a table that showed the > > typical range of FPS for various graphics cards. At the time I > > thought that was a very interesting piece of data, and am sad to > > have never seen it again (maybe I missed it). > > The chart is still up, but I don't think it's been updated very > recently... no kidding, the biggest nvidia card in there is a geforce 8800. they stopped making these a few years ago. anyways, I run SL on a geforce 9400 M and i usually get around 15-20 FPS on "recommended settings". on the same computer I get roughly 60-70 FPS in unreal tournament 2004 with all settings maxed out and it looks tremendously better. bye, LC From joel.foner at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 11:08:23 2010 From: joel.foner at gmail.com (Joel Foner) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:08:23 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: I hope... ??? ... that someone doing rendering dev has a typical netbook class computer to try things on, and actually does it and checks performance variations from build to build on a few classes of hardware... That would point the performance issues out quite directly, and cost a mere US $350 each to have on hand. Netbooks represent common low end machines that are very popular. While I also have high end hardware, I often run about with a netbook, and have yet to see it above 8 FPS on any build at any time. Some might be tempted to say "oh, that's an absurd machine that we're not targeting", however as evidence I would point to the blog post I did a while back on performance optimization for low end machines http://joelfoner.com/2009/12/8-ways-to-make-low-perf-computer-second-life-faster/. At this point that post has now been retweeted 71 times, is over 5000 unique page views, and generated lots of email comments that their netbook/cheap machine from best buy/etc is finally marginally useful with Second Life. Increasing the base graphics hardware requirements will likely kill off both netbooks and the class of machines just above it, which is not in my view a good move. Hope this helps, Joel On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Yoz Grahame wrote: > Might be worth running this past Team Shining, especially since they've > worked on some major speed improvements to water recently. No idea how close > they are to merging. > > > On 12 September 2010 06:22, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > >> I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in >> our current development viewer. >> Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) >> >> I added some detail to the issue description. >> >> It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it (might >> we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to >> suppress the problem). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/90fd573e/attachment.htm From joel.foner at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 11:14:51 2010 From: joel.foner at gmail.com (Joel Foner) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:14:51 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Another thought to toss in is that Second Life is fairly CPU dependent for performance too. Just last night, I upgraded a machine here from an AMD Athlon 8650 2.6 GHz triple core processor to an AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4 GHz quad core. This system has an NVidia 9800GT-based card in it, and that stayed. FPS went from 45 FPS to 75-80+ FPS in a scene that I know well. Same machine. Same graphics card. Same net connection. Yes, the graphics card matters, but what this says to me is that performance benchmarking by putting a low performance graphics card in a high performance machine is invalid, as the results will be significantly better than experienced in the wild with a low end machine. Hope this helps, Joel On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Yoz Grahame wrote: > Might be worth running this past Team Shining, especially since they've > worked on some major speed improvements to water recently. No idea how close > they are to merging. > > > On 12 September 2010 06:22, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > >> I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in >> our current development viewer. >> Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) >> >> I added some detail to the issue description. >> >> It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it (might >> we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to >> suppress the problem). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/90583f6d/attachment.htm From zha.ewry at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 11:29:10 2010 From: zha.ewry at gmail.com (Zha Ewry) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 14:29:10 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: This reeks of something we could seriously crowdsource. How hard would it be to pick a base region, a base set of settings (Draw distance etc) and have 100 or 200 of us take turns getting a simple benchmark? set a bar for network (use speakeasy to measure to a constant place, for example) and as people to boot, run the client to attach to the regoin, take a number of measurements and post them to a table in a wiki page. I am betting we'd learn a lot in a hurry. ~ Zha On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Joel Foner wrote: > Another thought to toss in is that Second Life is fairly CPU dependent for > performance too. Just last night, I upgraded a machine here from an AMD > Athlon 8650 2.6 GHz triple core processor to an AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4 GHz > quad core. This system has an NVidia 9800GT-based card in it, and that > stayed. > > FPS went from 45 FPS to 75-80+ FPS in a scene that I know well. Same > machine. Same graphics card. Same net connection. > > Yes, the graphics card matters, but what this says to me is that > performance benchmarking by putting a low performance graphics card in a > high performance machine is invalid, as the results will be significantly > better than experienced in the wild with a low end machine. > > Hope this helps, > > Joel > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Yoz Grahame wrote: > >> Might be worth running this past Team Shining, especially since they've >> worked on some major speed improvements to water recently. No idea how close >> they are to merging. >> >> >> On 12 September 2010 06:22, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> >>> I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in >>> our current development viewer. >>> Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) >>> >>> I added some detail to the issue description. >>> >>> It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it (might >>> we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to >>> suppress the problem). >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/1b797f87/attachment-0001.htm From javajoint at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 11:42:46 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:42:46 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Zha Ewry wrote: > This reeks of something we could seriously crowdsource. How hard would it > be to pick a base region, a base set of settings (Draw distance etc) and > have 100 or 200 of us > take turns getting a simple benchmark? set a bar for network (use speakeasy > to measure to a constant place, for example) and as people to boot, run the > client to attach to the > regoin, take a number of measurements and post them to a table in a wiki > page. I am betting we'd learn a lot in a hurry. > > ~ Zha > > > > > Excellent idea. The other thing I am wondering these days is: how come the Unity3d engine is getting much more impressive graphics, at high frames, with very complex scenes, compared to SL? I wish there were a simple way to do an apples to apples comparison of the same scene in SL vs Unity3d. On my 4 year old Intel iMac, the difference is absolutely striking. It's not just the hardware. There's something in the SL graphics pipeline that is a big issue. -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/0d2d7693/attachment.htm From missannotoole at yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 12:33:54 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <551959.67975.qm@web120520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I am not in the fan club of miring Second Life in the past. Another reason people don't stay is because all the current video games look so much better. However that has nothing to do with something working right on one build and then not working right on the next build and then trying to hide the defective coding by forcing settings to a higher level. I'm a little taken aback that such a tactic would be suggested. Why can't someone, specifically whoever made the changes, do a diff and look at the changes and come to a comprehension of exactly why this behavior commenced? (Why when I was a group development manager at the evil empire we had to walk a mile in the snow to fetch a pail of electricity to run the build system with and.... nm) ________________________________ From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) To: Esbee Linden (Sarah Hutchinson) ; opensource-dev Sent: Sun, September 12, 2010 9:22:22 AM Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in our current development viewer. Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) I added some detail to the issue description. It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it (might we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to suppress the problem). _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/62089a0a/attachment.htm From zabb65 at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 12:38:55 2010 From: zabb65 at gmail.com (Zabb65) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:38:55 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: It generally isn't fair to compare other engines results with that of second life, and I don't think it ever will be fair to compare results, or how it looks. The fundamental differences are too large. Most graphics engines deal with optimized static geometry that has specially designed textures that can be mapped onto them in clever ways, and an optimized pre-computed tree is formed to occlusion, so that you can obtain very high framerates and good looking results, even from very very modest hardware. This however is not the case with second life, where there is NO static geometry that can be optimized or merged, the textures cannot be applied in clever ways or mapped efficiently, and those using them generally do not know how their use of textures slows everything now. I hope to see a lot of this change with the introduction of mesh. Second life current has a trade off between simplicity of data transfer and polygon count and complexity, by over generating its geometry for each primitive, it allows for simple building blocks that can be used for construction. The trade off is that a great number of them go unused or are never visible, hidden inside intersections of other prims. Sadly this case cannot be optimized, as the system is entirely dynamic, where any given primitive or object can change or move at any time, leaving little room for clever programming to fill in holes and optimize away pieces that cannot be seen. Currently the second life system does a fairly good job of creating a semi decent performance scene out of all this chaos, but I am sure there are ways it could be further improved. Suggesting a move to another graphics engine that is developed and designed for use with static optimized geometry in a controlled environment would provide poor performance, likely far worse than what is currently offered by the tuned system that current exists. This is particularly true for the number of unique textures that are often visible within a scene at any time. Sometimes counting in the thousands. In most games you have maybe 200 textures visible at any given moment, and its careful tuned to stay as low as possible to achieve the good performance you are used to. I hope that we can continue to watch the engine used for second life change and evolve in ways that increase this performance and lower the bar of entry, but it will never be something that the programmers alone can do, it takes the coordination of everyone involved, content creators and users included. From hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 12 13:46:19 2010 From: hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk (Hitomi Tiponi) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:46:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [opensource-dev] (no subject) Message-ID: <85939.95159.qm@web23902.mail.ird.yahoo.com> >I'm seeing what I believe is the same problem described in SNOW-745 in >our current development viewer. >Second Life 2.1.2 (209297) > >I added some detail to the issue description. > >It's very irritating. I think we need to do something about it (might >we be able to force Atmospheric Shaders to 'on'? That appears to >suppress the problem). /me shakes head in disbelief. How about finding out what caused the problem in the first place - that is usually the best approach. I am sure this issue can be addressed by testing likely changes until the cause is found. Forcing on atmospheric shaders would: - cause a lot of machines to slow to a crawl. - cause a number of viewer problems for many users (my own laptop runs sl fine until atmospheric shaders are switched on and then gives a weird kaleidoscope of colours as it can't cope with them). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/fa671824/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 15:45:34 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 17:45:34 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Client side scripting. Message-ID: Was looking at this it would be really simple and really powerful including new ui's and stuff. You could expose what llclass methods you want and create new ones. Wrap that up into a mono dll that they just use the name space of so they dont have to bother with any extern code syntax. http://www.mono-project.com/Embedding_Mono Would bring a whole new slew of people to the tables with c# skills. Also allowing for features and ui stuff kinda like LUA and World of Warcraft where they expose the functions they wish to provide to the user. You would run in the lowest priv level. And do like a andorid app does when they install it it says what they are requesting access to do and the user has to grant that. Maybe a day or two worths of work to get something going with basic interop. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/9406111e/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 16:47:55 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:47:55 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8CE291.90105@xp2.de> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <201009121529.38670.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <4C8CE291.90105@xp2.de> Message-ID: > Are there any statistics out there about what kind of hardware people have? I know LL has information on this that they don't readily publish, though tidbits spill through the cracks sometimes. This Jira of mine requests more information about users, likely including information they don't collect yet, using Steam's hardware and software survey as an example. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2596 Stickman From kf6kjg at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 18:39:36 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 18:39:36 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Client side scripting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hehe, client-side scripting has been in the works for a while now. At least one dev has a working model, (Dzonatas Sol in SNOW-375 I believe,) and there has been loads of discussion on the idea on this very forum. Just got interrupted by one of the many "big" events that's happened since mid-March... (Good reading there! Plenty of arguments for various methods of implementation.) From xotmid at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 18:57:32 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:57:32 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Client side scripting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I Am going to put together a test build this week with it and see what it can do and how well it works. On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Ricky wrote: > Hehe, client-side scripting has been in the works for a while now. At > least one dev has a working model, (Dzonatas Sol in SNOW-375 I > believe,) and there has been loads of discussion on the idea on this > very forum. Just got interrupted by one of the many "big" events > that's happened since mid-March... (Good reading there! Plenty of > arguments for various methods of implementation.) > > From what I remember, LL had been working on a system as well, but I > don't remember any confirmation.. Oz, is/was such a project in place? > If so, any idea what it's progress is and what team is working on it? > According to my mail history, it may have been called "Firefly". > > Ricky > Cron Stardust > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Brandon Husbands > wrote: > > Was looking at this it would be really simple and really powerful > including > > new ui's and stuff. > > You could expose what llclass methods you want and create new ones. > > > > Wrap that up into a mono dll that they just use the name space of so they > > dont have to bother with any extern code syntax. > > > > http://www.mono-project.com/Embedding_Mono > > > > Would bring a whole new slew of people to the tables with c# skills. > > > > Also allowing for features and ui stuff kinda like LUA and World of > Warcraft > > where they expose the functions they wish to provide to the user. > > > > You would run in the lowest priv level. And do like a andorid app does > when > > they install it it says what they are requesting access to do and the > user > > has to grant that. > > > > > > Maybe a day or two worths of work to get something going with basic > interop. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/8a1d59c8/attachment-0001.htm From jamey at beau.org Sun Sep 12 20:53:01 2010 From: jamey at beau.org (Jamey Fletcher) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:53:01 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8D0C6E.9040507@gmail.com> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <4C8CDEB8.7030005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <000601cb528a$93c3ac70$bb4b0550$@net> <4C8D0C6E.9040507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8DA01D.3020409@beau.org> Tateru Nino wrote: > Another aspect to the numbers there is that (quite often) users will > crank up visual features until frame-rates become just short of > intolerable or unusable. That tends to make the results trend downwards. > They *could* be higher for the same hardware, but many of us will crank > up our quality and distance settings until the viewer is on the edge of > shuddering -- and increase our crash-rates in the process. One possibility is if the Lindens set up an island, with an agent limit of *1*. Region forces AV to face a particular direction. Avatar drops in, and waits 5 mins. During that time, the system records frame rates, CPU, and vid card. AV reports graphics settings (unless that can be pulled from the client automatically). AVs do it with client set to the absolute defaults for low, mid, high, and ultra, turning off anistropic filtering and antialiasing. A few weeks of that, and we should have some good data - would have to be the stock client, too, though - but could record stock 1.23 and stock 2.1, and get good data on whether the changes to the rendering engine helped. From sheet.spotter at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 20:58:39 2010 From: sheet.spotter at gmail.com (Sheet Spotter) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:58:39 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> Some comments on SNOW-361 (Upgrade to OpenJPEG v2) suggested that changing to version 2 of OpenJPEG might improve performance, while other comments suggested it might not support progressive decoding. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-361 Is an upgrade to OpenJPEG v2 under active development? Sheet Spotter _____ From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Philippe (Merov) Bossut Sent: September 9, 2010 10:35 PM To: Nicky Fullton Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder Hi Nicky, As it happens, I've been working on instrumenting the code to add metric gathering for image decompression as part of the Snowstorm sprint. You may want to use my branch (https://bitbucket.org/merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761) and create a baseline for openjpeg then run a test for Jasper. You'll have to sort out the failing cases certainly and just throw them so we compare what gets truly decompressed (though, clearly, working in all cases is pretty critical if we look at Jasper as an alternative). Here's what I got comparing KDU and OpenJpeg: Label Metric KDU(B) OJ2C(T) Diff(T-B) Percentage(100*T/B) ImageCompressionTester-1 TotalBytesInDecompression 5048643 5003370 -45273 99.1 TotalBytesOutDecompression 40415336 46592896 6177560 115.29 TimeTimeDecompression 3.74 17.04 13.3 455.39 ImageCompressionTester-2 TotalBytesInDecompression 5000744 5000144 -600 99.99 TotalBytesOutDecompression 46440040 44248324 -2191716 95.28 TimeTimeDecompression 3.64 15.02 11.37 412.02 For that test, I output data every time 5MB of compressed data have been processed. It's partial but shows that OpenJpeg is roughly 4 times slower than KDU (at least, the version we're using in the official viewer currently). Would be nice to have a similar set of numbers for Jasper before going too far down the implementation path. I wrote a short (and still incompleted) wiki to explain a bit how the metric gathering system works: - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Performance_Testers BTW, that's something we should be using more generally for other perf sensitive areas, especially when starting a perf improvement project. See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22761 for details. Cheers, - Merov On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Nicky Fullton wrote: Hello, >> i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for JPG2000 >> images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have tested >> last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must do a lot >> of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around never >> tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? >I'm not aware of anyone publishing results for such a test, but if you >have the time it would be interesting reading. You might be interested in: http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/027bf44c5582 I made a rather quick hack to try Jasper instead of OpenJpeg to decode images. The patch has some very rough edges. In fact is the decoding into the LLImageRaw buffer not correct. I did not fix this (yet) because the results so far are not very promising. Jasper can only decode around 20% of the jpeg, for the other 80% it will create an error and then my code falls back to OpenJpeg. This fallback makes the whole decoding rather slow, so it is hard to say if Jasper would really be any faster. Right now I am not sure if it would be reasonable to invest more time looking at Jasper. First the code would need to fixed upstream, so all images can be properly decoded. As this project looks rather dead, one with JPEG2000 knowledge might have to step up for this. On another note, you might like to try: http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/e4eff3e2af39 This will at least skip the step of calling OpenJpeg in LImageJ2COJ::getMetadata (if possible, it will do sanity checks first). >Some things to keep in >mind. OpenJpeg has patches floating around on its ML against 1.3 that >reports have claimed up to 40% speed increase in places due to >unrolling the inner loops so finding them and testing would be good. I did not find any of those, but then again maybe I did not look hard enough. There is certainly some potential in OpenJpeg. There are some loops in t1_dec_sigpass and t1_dec_refpass that can be easily rewritten. But there is some pretty tricky stuff in t1_dec_clnpass that would need some cleaning and mqc decoder (mqc_decode) burns a lot of time. But that one is especially hairy as it has side effects on its input parameter. I am not sure if anyone without enough deep knowledge of OpenJpeg (and the dedication to recode a good part of it) would be able to improve much of it. Cheers, Nicky _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/f77efdfb/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 21:42:21 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:42:21 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> Message-ID: Phoenix uses a newer openjpeg and its static compiled might want to check.its source On Sep 12, 2010 10:58 PM, "Sheet Spotter" wrote: Some comments on SNOW-361 (Upgrade to OpenJPEG v2) suggested that changing to version 2 of OpenJPEG might improve performance, while other comments suggested it might not support progressive decoding. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-361 Is an upgrade to OpenJPEG v2 under active development? Sheet Spotter ------------------------------ *From:* opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Philippe (Merov) Bossut *Sent:* September 9, 2010 10:35 PM *To:* Nicky Fullton *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder Hi Nicky, As it happens, I've been working on instrumenting the code to add metric gathering f... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/c5a81992/attachment.htm From joel.foner at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 22:03:29 2010 From: joel.foner at gmail.com (Joel Foner) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:03:29 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Severe water flicker in recent development build In-Reply-To: <4C8DA01D.3020409@beau.org> References: <4C8CD40E.4040901@lindenlab.com> <4C8CDEB8.7030005@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <000601cb528a$93c3ac70$bb4b0550$@net> <4C8D0C6E.9040507@gmail.com> <4C8DA01D.3020409@beau.org> Message-ID: > > One possibility is if the Lindens set up an island, with an agent limit > of *1*. Region forces AV to face a particular direction. Avatar drops > in, and waits 5 mins. During that time, the system records frame rates, > CPU, and vid card. AV reports graphics settings (unless that can be > pulled from the client automatically). AVs do it with client set to the > absolute defaults for low, mid, high, and ultra, turning off anistropic > filtering and antialiasing. A few weeks of that, and we should have > some good data - would have to be the stock client, too, though - but > could record stock 1.23 and stock 2.1, and get good data on whether the > changes to the rendering engine helped. > > I've found that graphics cards and machines will reverse performance ranking sometimes based on the scene they're presented with. The load of having other avatars around is substantial and sometimes different from card to card (and on lower end machines occasionally it's seemed that turning off avatar nametags can make a noticeable difference). Some "less capable" cards will hold up better in some circumstances, in terms of FPS degradation percent, than "better" ones, and it's hard to guess based on looking at the scene. A single scenario will tell something, but it's hard to extrapolate from it and generalize over the range of scenes found on the grid. Joel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/8193e810/attachment-0001.htm From tateru at taterunino.net Sun Sep 12 22:40:17 2010 From: tateru at taterunino.net (Tateru Nino) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:40:17 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> Message-ID: <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the JPEG 2000 format? Since the transfer time of individual textures is vastly reduced (from the first byte to the last byte) the intermediate quality levels supported by jpg2k would seem to be redundant. Indeed, you could argue that transferring the textures in jpg2k format imposes a now-redundant workload on the texture-pipeline, and that providing HTTP textures in a simpler format that is more tractable to high-speed, low-cost decoding would save a whole lot of problems. Would it be a huge problem, for example, to transfer HTTP textures as TGA or PNG and use one of the rather well-optimized decoder libraries for those instead? It seems to me that it would be more efficient both on the network and on the system - though at the expense of conversion of all the textures at the store. Just thinking out loud. On 13/09/2010 1:58 PM, Sheet Spotter wrote: > > Some comments on SNOW-361 (Upgrade to OpenJPEG v2) suggested that > changing to version 2 of OpenJPEG might improve performance, while > other comments suggested it might not support progressive decoding. > > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-361 > > Is an upgrade to OpenJPEG v2 under active development? > > Sheet Spotter > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com > [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of > *Philippe (Merov) Bossut > *Sent:* September 9, 2010 10:35 PM > *To:* Nicky Fullton > *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder > > Hi Nicky, > > As it happens, I've been working on instrumenting the code to add > metric gathering for image decompression as part of the Snowstorm sprint. > > You may want to use my branch > (https://bitbucket.org/merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761) and > create a baseline for openjpeg then run a test for Jasper. You'll have > to sort out the failing cases certainly and just throw them so we > compare what gets truly decompressed (though, clearly, working in all > cases is pretty critical if we look at Jasper as an alternative). > > Here's what I got comparing KDU and OpenJpeg: > Label Metric KDU(B) OJ2C(T) > Diff(T-B) Percentage(100*T/B) > ImageCompressionTester-1 > TotalBytesInDecompression 5048643 5003370 -45273 99.1 > TotalBytesOutDecompression 40415336 46592896 6177560 115.29 > TimeTimeDecompression 3.74 17.04 > 13.3 455.39 > ImageCompressionTester-2 > TotalBytesInDecompression 5000744 5000144 -600 > 99.99 > TotalBytesOutDecompression 46440040 44248324 -2191716 95.28 > TimeTimeDecompression 3.64 15.02 > 11.37 412.02 > > For that test, I output data every time 5MB of compressed data have > been processed. It's partial but shows that OpenJpeg is roughly 4 > times slower than KDU (at least, the version we're using in the > official viewer currently). Would be nice to have a similar set of > numbers for Jasper before going too far down the implementation path. > > I wrote a short (and still incompleted) wiki to explain a bit how the > metric gathering system works: > - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Performance_Testers > > BTW, that's something we should be using more generally for other perf > sensitive areas, especially when starting a perf improvement project. > > See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22761 for details. > > Cheers, > - Merov > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Nicky Fullton > wrote: > > Hello, > > >> i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for JPG2000 > >> images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have tested > >> last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must do a lot > >> of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around never > >> tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? > > >I'm not aware of anyone publishing results for such a test, but if you > >have the time it would be interesting reading. > > You might be interested in: > http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/027bf44c5582 > > I made a rather quick hack to try Jasper instead of OpenJpeg to decode > images. > > The patch has some very rough edges. In fact is the decoding into the > LLImageRaw buffer not correct. > > I did not fix this (yet) because the results so far are not very > promising. > Jasper can only decode around 20% of the jpeg, for the other 80% it will > create an error and then my code falls back to OpenJpeg. > This fallback makes the whole decoding rather slow, so it is hard to say > if Jasper would really be any faster. > > Right now I am not sure if it would be reasonable to invest more time > looking at Jasper. First the code would need to fixed upstream, so all > images can be properly decoded. As this project looks rather dead, one > with JPEG2000 knowledge might have to step up for this. > > On another note, you might like to try: > http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/e4eff3e2af39 > > This will at least skip the step of calling OpenJpeg in > LImageJ2COJ::getMetadata (if possible, it will do sanity checks first). > > >Some things to keep in > >mind. OpenJpeg has patches floating around on its ML against 1.3 that > >reports have claimed up to 40% speed increase in places due to > >unrolling the inner loops so finding them and testing would be good. > > I did not find any of those, but then again maybe I did not look hard > enough. > There is certainly some potential in OpenJpeg. > There are some loops in t1_dec_sigpass and t1_dec_refpass that can be > easily rewritten. But there is some pretty tricky stuff in t1_dec_clnpass > that would need some cleaning and mqc decoder (mqc_decode) burns a lot > of time. But that one is especially hairy as it has side effects on its > input parameter. > > I am not sure if anyone without enough deep knowledge of OpenJpeg (and > the dedication to recode a good part of it) would be able to improve > much of it. > > Cheers, > Nicky > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Tateru Nino Contributing Editor http://massively.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/3ddf1351/attachment.htm From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 23:04:42 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:04:42 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the JPEG 2000 > format? There is the 500TB asset server full of jpeg2k images. Switching to a new format would be a massive undertaking. > Would it be a huge problem, for example, to transfer HTTP textures as TGA or > PNG and use one of the rather well-optimized decoder libraries for those > instead? TGA is uncompressed so it won't work. PNG could work, but its compression ratio and file overhead isn't that much better than jpeg2k. So the gains would only be in decode time, which is the biggest cpu drain in the viewer so it may be worth it. From dahliatrimble at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 23:38:53 2010 From: dahliatrimble at gmail.com (Dahlia Trimble) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:38:53 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> Message-ID: Jpeg 2000 discard levels are also used for reducing the resolution of textures for distant objects which reduces data download requirements. Few other formats offer comparable compression ratios with the quality that Jpeg 2000 offers. HTTP transfer doesn't magically make data traverse the network faster; much of the reduced download time is due to offloading the sim from the task of sending textures as they can come from another server process (or even another physical server). On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the JPEG 2000 > format? Since the transfer time of individual textures is vastly reduced > (from the first byte to the last byte) the intermediate quality levels > supported by jpg2k would seem to be redundant. Indeed, you could argue that > transferring the textures in jpg2k format imposes a now-redundant workload > on the texture-pipeline, and that providing HTTP textures in a simpler > format that is more tractable to high-speed, low-cost decoding would save a > whole lot of problems. > > Would it be a huge problem, for example, to transfer HTTP textures as TGA > or PNG and use one of the rather well-optimized decoder libraries for those > instead? It seems to me that it would be more efficient both on the network > and on the system - though at the expense of conversion of all the textures > at the store. > > Just thinking out loud. > > > On 13/09/2010 1:58 PM, Sheet Spotter wrote: > > Some comments on SNOW-361 (Upgrade to OpenJPEG v2) suggested that > changing to version 2 of OpenJPEG might improve performance, while other > comments suggested it might not support progressive decoding. > > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-361 > > > > Is an upgrade to OpenJPEG v2 under active development? > > > > > > Sheet Spotter > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [ > mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] > *On Behalf Of *Philippe (Merov) Bossut > *Sent:* September 9, 2010 10:35 PM > *To:* Nicky Fullton > *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder > > > > Hi Nicky, > > As it happens, I've been working on instrumenting the code to add metric > gathering for image decompression as part of the Snowstorm sprint. > > You may want to use my branch ( > https://bitbucket.org/merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761) and > create a baseline for openjpeg then run a test for Jasper. You'll have to > sort out the failing cases certainly and just throw them so we compare what > gets truly decompressed (though, clearly, working in all cases is pretty > critical if we look at Jasper as an alternative). > > Here's what I got comparing KDU and OpenJpeg: > Label Metric KDU(B) OJ2C(T) > Diff(T-B) Percentage(100*T/B) > ImageCompressionTester-1 > TotalBytesInDecompression 5048643 5003370 -45273 99.1 > TotalBytesOutDecompression 40415336 46592896 6177560 115.29 > TimeTimeDecompression 3.74 17.04 13.3 > 455.39 > ImageCompressionTester-2 > TotalBytesInDecompression 5000744 5000144 -600 > 99.99 > TotalBytesOutDecompression 46440040 44248324 -2191716 95.28 > TimeTimeDecompression 3.64 15.02 11.37 > 412.02 > > For that test, I output data every time 5MB of compressed data have been > processed. It's partial but shows that OpenJpeg is roughly 4 times slower > than KDU (at least, the version we're using in the official viewer > currently). Would be nice to have a similar set of numbers for Jasper before > going too far down the implementation path. > > I wrote a short (and still incompleted) wiki to explain a bit how the > metric gathering system works: > - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Performance_Testers > > BTW, that's something we should be using more generally for other perf > sensitive areas, especially when starting a perf improvement project. > > See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22761 for details. > > Cheers, > - Merov > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Nicky Fullton wrote: > > Hello, > > >> i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for JPG2000 > >> images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have tested > >> last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must do a lot > >> of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around never > >> tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? > > >I'm not aware of anyone publishing results for such a test, but if you > >have the time it would be interesting reading. > > You might be interested in: > http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/027bf44c5582 > > I made a rather quick hack to try Jasper instead of OpenJpeg to decode > images. > > The patch has some very rough edges. In fact is the decoding into the > LLImageRaw buffer not correct. > > I did not fix this (yet) because the results so far are not very promising. > Jasper can only decode around 20% of the jpeg, for the other 80% it will > create an error and then my code falls back to OpenJpeg. > This fallback makes the whole decoding rather slow, so it is hard to say > if Jasper would really be any faster. > > Right now I am not sure if it would be reasonable to invest more time > looking at Jasper. First the code would need to fixed upstream, so all > images can be properly decoded. As this project looks rather dead, one > with JPEG2000 knowledge might have to step up for this. > > On another note, you might like to try: > http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/e4eff3e2af39 > > This will at least skip the step of calling OpenJpeg in > LImageJ2COJ::getMetadata (if possible, it will do sanity checks first). > > >Some things to keep in > >mind. OpenJpeg has patches floating around on its ML against 1.3 that > >reports have claimed up to 40% speed increase in places due to > >unrolling the inner loops so finding them and testing would be good. > > I did not find any of those, but then again maybe I did not look hard > enough. > There is certainly some potential in OpenJpeg. > There are some loops in t1_dec_sigpass and t1_dec_refpass that can be > easily rewritten. But there is some pretty tricky stuff in t1_dec_clnpass > that would need some cleaning and mqc decoder (mqc_decode) burns a lot > of time. But that one is especially hairy as it has side effects on its > input parameter. > > I am not sure if anyone without enough deep knowledge of OpenJpeg (and > the dedication to recode a good part of it) would be able to improve > much of it. > > Cheers, > Nicky > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > > -- > Tateru Nino > Contributing Editor http://massively.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100912/74d429d2/attachment-0001.htm From tateru at taterunino.net Mon Sep 13 00:24:08 2010 From: tateru at taterunino.net (Tateru Nino) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:24:08 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> Message-ID: <4C8DD198.10009@taterunino.net> Wouldn't we be making a network saving by omitting the discard levels entirely? Granted, I don't have hard data about that - would the base texture encoded in a lighter-weight format end up causing less data to traverse for a given texture in the long-run than the more-efficiently compressed j2c of the same texture including discard levels? My gut instinct says 'probably', but I can't prove that with data. If it *does* then we would have a double-bonus of also saving on decoding time. On 13/09/2010 4:38 PM, Dahlia Trimble wrote: > Jpeg 2000 discard levels are also used for reducing the resolution of > textures for distant objects which reduces data download requirements. > Few other formats offer comparable compression ratios with the quality > that Jpeg 2000 offers. HTTP transfer doesn't magically make data > traverse the network faster; much of the reduced download time is due > to offloading the sim from the task of sending textures as they can > come from another server process (or even another physical server). > > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Tateru Nino > wrote: > > If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the > JPEG 2000 format? Since the transfer time of individual textures > is vastly reduced (from the first byte to the last byte) the > intermediate quality levels supported by jpg2k would seem to be > redundant. Indeed, you could argue that transferring the textures > in jpg2k format imposes a now-redundant workload on the > texture-pipeline, and that providing HTTP textures in a simpler > format that is more tractable to high-speed, low-cost decoding > would save a whole lot of problems. > > Would it be a huge problem, for example, to transfer HTTP textures > as TGA or PNG and use one of the rather well-optimized decoder > libraries for those instead? It seems to me that it would be more > efficient both on the network and on the system - though at the > expense of conversion of all the textures at the store. > > Just thinking out loud. > > > On 13/09/2010 1:58 PM, Sheet Spotter wrote: >> >> Some comments on SNOW-361 (Upgrade to OpenJPEG v2) suggested that >> changing to version 2 of OpenJPEG might improve performance, >> while other comments suggested it might not support progressive >> decoding. >> >> http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-361 >> >> Is an upgrade to OpenJPEG v2 under active development? >> >> Sheet Spotter >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com >> >> [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf >> Of *Philippe (Merov) Bossut >> *Sent:* September 9, 2010 10:35 PM >> *To:* Nicky Fullton >> *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> >> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder >> >> Hi Nicky, >> >> As it happens, I've been working on instrumenting the code to add >> metric gathering for image decompression as part of the Snowstorm >> sprint. >> >> You may want to use my branch >> (https://bitbucket.org/merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761) >> and create a baseline for openjpeg then run a test for Jasper. >> You'll have to sort out the failing cases certainly and just >> throw them so we compare what gets truly decompressed (though, >> clearly, working in all cases is pretty critical if we look at >> Jasper as an alternative). >> >> Here's what I got comparing KDU and OpenJpeg: >> Label Metric KDU(B) >> OJ2C(T) Diff(T-B) Percentage(100*T/B) >> ImageCompressionTester-1 >> TotalBytesInDecompression 5048643 5003370 >> -45273 99.1 >> TotalBytesOutDecompression 40415336 46592896 6177560 >> 115.29 >> TimeTimeDecompression 3.74 17.04 >> 13.3 455.39 >> ImageCompressionTester-2 >> TotalBytesInDecompression 5000744 5000144 -600 >> 99.99 >> TotalBytesOutDecompression 46440040 44248324 -2191716 >> 95.28 >> TimeTimeDecompression 3.64 15.02 >> 11.37 412.02 >> >> For that test, I output data every time 5MB of compressed data >> have been processed. It's partial but shows that OpenJpeg is >> roughly 4 times slower than KDU (at least, the version we're >> using in the official viewer currently). Would be nice to have a >> similar set of numbers for Jasper before going too far down the >> implementation path. >> >> I wrote a short (and still incompleted) wiki to explain a bit how >> the metric gathering system works: >> - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Performance_Testers >> >> BTW, that's something we should be using more generally for other >> perf sensitive areas, especially when starting a perf improvement >> project. >> >> See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22761 for details. >> >> Cheers, >> - Merov >> >> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Nicky Fullton >> > wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> >> i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for >> JPG2000 >> >> images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have >> tested >> >> last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must >> do a lot >> >> of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around >> never >> >> tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? >> >> >I'm not aware of anyone publishing results for such a test, but >> if you >> >have the time it would be interesting reading. >> >> You might be interested in: >> http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/027bf44c5582 >> >> I made a rather quick hack to try Jasper instead of OpenJpeg to >> decode >> images. >> >> The patch has some very rough edges. In fact is the decoding into the >> LLImageRaw buffer not correct. >> >> I did not fix this (yet) because the results so far are not very >> promising. >> Jasper can only decode around 20% of the jpeg, for the other 80% >> it will >> create an error and then my code falls back to OpenJpeg. >> This fallback makes the whole decoding rather slow, so it is hard >> to say >> if Jasper would really be any faster. >> >> Right now I am not sure if it would be reasonable to invest more time >> looking at Jasper. First the code would need to fixed upstream, >> so all >> images can be properly decoded. As this project looks rather >> dead, one >> with JPEG2000 knowledge might have to step up for this. >> >> On another note, you might like to try: >> http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/e4eff3e2af39 >> >> This will at least skip the step of calling OpenJpeg in >> LImageJ2COJ::getMetadata (if possible, it will do sanity checks >> first). >> >> >Some things to keep in >> >mind. OpenJpeg has patches floating around on its ML against 1.3 that >> >reports have claimed up to 40% speed increase in places due to >> >unrolling the inner loops so finding them and testing would be good. >> >> I did not find any of those, but then again maybe I did not look hard >> enough. >> There is certainly some potential in OpenJpeg. >> There are some loops in t1_dec_sigpass and t1_dec_refpass that can be >> easily rewritten. But there is some pretty tricky stuff in >> t1_dec_clnpass >> that would need some cleaning and mqc decoder (mqc_decode) burns >> a lot >> of time. But that one is especially hairy as it has side effects >> on its >> input parameter. >> >> I am not sure if anyone without enough deep knowledge of OpenJpeg >> (and >> the dedication to recode a good part of it) would be able to improve >> much of it. >> >> Cheers, >> Nicky >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated >> posting privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -- > Tateru Nino > Contributing Editorhttp://massively.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/6ff2c3bd/attachment-0001.htm From dahliatrimble at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 00:47:22 2010 From: dahliatrimble at gmail.com (Dahlia Trimble) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 00:47:22 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <4C8DD198.10009@taterunino.net> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> <4C8DD198.10009@taterunino.net> Message-ID: Requesting a discard level means you only get a portion of the entire file, and if you wanted the highest resolution you would download the entire file which would include all discard levels. The advantage of being able to request only what you need can save a lot of network traffic. You don't really want to download a 1024x1024 texture for a distant object that only covers a few pixels on the screen. On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Wouldn't we be making a network saving by omitting the discard levels > entirely? Granted, I don't have hard data about that - would the base > texture encoded in a lighter-weight format end up causing less data to > traverse for a given texture in the long-run than the more-efficiently > compressed j2c of the same texture including discard levels? My gut instinct > says 'probably', but I can't prove that with data. > > If it *does* then we would have a double-bonus of also saving on decoding > time. > > > On 13/09/2010 4:38 PM, Dahlia Trimble wrote: > > Jpeg 2000 discard levels are also used for reducing the resolution of > textures for distant objects which reduces data download requirements. Few > other formats offer comparable compression ratios with the quality that Jpeg > 2000 offers. HTTP transfer doesn't magically make data traverse the network > faster; much of the reduced download time is due to offloading the sim from > the task of sending textures as they can come from another server process > (or even another physical server). > > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > >> If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the JPEG >> 2000 format? Since the transfer time of individual textures is vastly >> reduced (from the first byte to the last byte) the intermediate quality >> levels supported by jpg2k would seem to be redundant. Indeed, you could >> argue that transferring the textures in jpg2k format imposes a now-redundant >> workload on the texture-pipeline, and that providing HTTP textures in a >> simpler format that is more tractable to high-speed, low-cost decoding would >> save a whole lot of problems. >> >> Would it be a huge problem, for example, to transfer HTTP textures as TGA >> or PNG and use one of the rather well-optimized decoder libraries for those >> instead? It seems to me that it would be more efficient both on the network >> and on the system - though at the expense of conversion of all the textures >> at the store. >> >> Just thinking out loud. >> >> >> On 13/09/2010 1:58 PM, Sheet Spotter wrote: >> >> Some comments on SNOW-361 (Upgrade to OpenJPEG v2) suggested that >> changing to version 2 of OpenJPEG might improve performance, while other >> comments suggested it might not support progressive decoding. >> >> http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-361 >> >> >> >> Is an upgrade to OpenJPEG v2 under active development? >> >> >> >> >> >> Sheet Spotter >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [ >> mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] >> *On Behalf Of *Philippe (Merov) Bossut >> *Sent:* September 9, 2010 10:35 PM >> *To:* Nicky Fullton >> *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder >> >> >> >> Hi Nicky, >> >> As it happens, I've been working on instrumenting the code to add metric >> gathering for image decompression as part of the Snowstorm sprint. >> >> You may want to use my branch ( >> https://bitbucket.org/merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761) and >> create a baseline for openjpeg then run a test for Jasper. You'll have to >> sort out the failing cases certainly and just throw them so we compare what >> gets truly decompressed (though, clearly, working in all cases is pretty >> critical if we look at Jasper as an alternative). >> >> Here's what I got comparing KDU and OpenJpeg: >> Label Metric KDU(B) OJ2C(T) >> Diff(T-B) Percentage(100*T/B) >> ImageCompressionTester-1 >> TotalBytesInDecompression 5048643 5003370 -45273 99.1 >> TotalBytesOutDecompression 40415336 46592896 6177560 115.29 >> TimeTimeDecompression 3.74 17.04 13.3 >> 455.39 >> ImageCompressionTester-2 >> TotalBytesInDecompression 5000744 5000144 -600 >> 99.99 >> TotalBytesOutDecompression 46440040 44248324 -2191716 95.28 >> TimeTimeDecompression 3.64 15.02 11.37 >> 412.02 >> >> For that test, I output data every time 5MB of compressed data have been >> processed. It's partial but shows that OpenJpeg is roughly 4 times slower >> than KDU (at least, the version we're using in the official viewer >> currently). Would be nice to have a similar set of numbers for Jasper before >> going too far down the implementation path. >> >> I wrote a short (and still incompleted) wiki to explain a bit how the >> metric gathering system works: >> - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Performance_Testers >> >> BTW, that's something we should be using more generally for other perf >> sensitive areas, especially when starting a perf improvement project. >> >> See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22761 for details. >> >> Cheers, >> - Merov >> >> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Nicky Fullton >> wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> >> i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for JPG2000 >> >> images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have tested >> >> last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must do a lot >> >> of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around never >> >> tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? >> >> >I'm not aware of anyone publishing results for such a test, but if you >> >have the time it would be interesting reading. >> >> You might be interested in: >> http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/027bf44c5582 >> >> I made a rather quick hack to try Jasper instead of OpenJpeg to decode >> images. >> >> The patch has some very rough edges. In fact is the decoding into the >> LLImageRaw buffer not correct. >> >> I did not fix this (yet) because the results so far are not very >> promising. >> Jasper can only decode around 20% of the jpeg, for the other 80% it will >> create an error and then my code falls back to OpenJpeg. >> This fallback makes the whole decoding rather slow, so it is hard to say >> if Jasper would really be any faster. >> >> Right now I am not sure if it would be reasonable to invest more time >> looking at Jasper. First the code would need to fixed upstream, so all >> images can be properly decoded. As this project looks rather dead, one >> with JPEG2000 knowledge might have to step up for this. >> >> On another note, you might like to try: >> http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/e4eff3e2af39 >> >> This will at least skip the step of calling OpenJpeg in >> LImageJ2COJ::getMetadata (if possible, it will do sanity checks first). >> >> >Some things to keep in >> >mind. OpenJpeg has patches floating around on its ML against 1.3 that >> >reports have claimed up to 40% speed increase in places due to >> >unrolling the inner loops so finding them and testing would be good. >> >> I did not find any of those, but then again maybe I did not look hard >> enough. >> There is certainly some potential in OpenJpeg. >> There are some loops in t1_dec_sigpass and t1_dec_refpass that can be >> easily rewritten. But there is some pretty tricky stuff in t1_dec_clnpass >> that would need some cleaning and mqc decoder (mqc_decode) burns a lot >> of time. But that one is especially hairy as it has side effects on its >> input parameter. >> >> I am not sure if anyone without enough deep knowledge of OpenJpeg (and >> the dedication to recode a good part of it) would be able to improve >> much of it. >> >> Cheers, >> Nicky >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> >> >> -- >> Tateru Nino >> Contributing Editor http://massively.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > > -- > Tateru Ninohttp://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/c189d1c8/attachment-0001.htm From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 00:48:51 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 00:48:51 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <4C8DD198.10009@taterunino.net> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> <4C8DD198.10009@taterunino.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Wouldn't we be making a network saving by omitting the discard levels > entirely? Granted, I don't have hard data about that - would the base > texture encoded in a lighter-weight format end up causing less data to > traverse for a given texture in the long-run than the more-efficiently > compressed j2c of the same texture including discard levels? My gut instinct > says 'probably', but I can't prove that with data. > > If it *does* then we would have a double-bonus of also saving on decoding > time. The problem is that discard levels save us on more then just bandwidth. when you look at an object 300m away it will only be taking up a few dozen pixels on the screen so the viewer will just download up to the first or second discard level, say 32x32 or so, and that is all that will be stored on your video card. Switching to a format that doesn't support discard levels could give us big savings in decode time, but at the cost of having to always download the whole file. We'd be trading cpu time for vram, and the average users machine has a lot more of the former than the later From sythos at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 01:40:03 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Francesco Rabbi) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 10:40:03 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> Message-ID: <8117617806958113011@unknownmsgid> > Would it be a huge problem, for example, to transfer HTTP textures > as TGA or PNG and use one of the rather well-optimized decoder TGA have lossless RLE compression anyway.... transport is format-indipendent, you can send on HTTP voice too (like skype) or anything you want. To increase bandwith and rendering performance we need a client side routine (viewer must ask to asset server only vievable textures) and servers should send the right order from closer object to farest. Scaling/resizing should be done by viewer after render engine calc the size of the surface where texture is. Receive a already undersampled image mean each movement of avatar/camera a re-trasmission of same image each time "bigger", in medium-long time terms is better receive the fullres texture and let the viewer resize and render using discarding to the right level based on local viewer side settings (resolution, monitor DPI, CPU power) But as always we are talking with only our hardware in our hands,all about this can be discussed better if somewhere are avaiable some statistic data about residents' hardware. If LL (better if others viewers team too) can collect anonymous data all decision about decoding, pipeline, shadow or shader and all other can taken more easy, a approx list of usefull data can be (if a statistical collector is or will enabled) to probe each XX minutes: - CPU mips/bogomips - CPU calc cores (not physical, just grand total) - avarage load of cores - cpu load of viewer executable - number and avarage load of plugins (voice included) - Amount of RAM (how much free) - Amount of swap (how much used) - Brand and model of graphic card - Graphic settings - number of agent in visible area - avarage of rendering cost of agents in visible area - FPS collected only when viewer isn't in "icon" - inbound&outbound bandwith - bandwith used by viewer - bandwith used by plugins, voice too - % of packetloss - uptime of connection to be sure no double data collected and no personal data used to collect them i suggest to use serial number of CPU (linux /proc/cpuinfo, mac same, windows dunno how) or sort of unique UUID based on hardware configuration (if somebody increase ram or CPU a new ID should be used) -- Sent by iPhone Il giorno 13/set/2010, alle ore 07:40, Tateru Nino ha scritto: If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the JPEG 2000 format? Since the transfer time of individual textures is vastly reduced (from the first byte to the last byte) the intermediate quality levels supported by jpg2k would seem to be redundant. Indeed, you could argue that transferring the textures in jpg2k format imposes a now-redundant workload on the texture-pipeline, and that providing HTTP textures in a simpler format that is more tractable to high-speed, low-cost decoding would save a whole lot of problems. Would it be a huge problem, for example, to transfer HTTP textures as TGA or PNG and use one of the rather well-optimized decoder libraries for those instead? It seems to me that it would be more efficient both on the network and on the system - though at the expense of conversion of all the textures at the store. Just thinking out loud. On 13/09/2010 1:58 PM, Sheet Spotter wrote: Some comments on SNOW-361 (Upgrade to OpenJPEG v2) suggested that changing to version 2 of OpenJPEG might improve performance, while other comments suggested it might not support progressive decoding. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-361 Is an upgrade to OpenJPEG v2 under active development? Sheet Spotter ------------------------------ *From:* opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [ mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Philippe (Merov) Bossut *Sent:* September 9, 2010 10:35 PM *To:* Nicky Fullton *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder Hi Nicky, As it happens, I've been working on instrumenting the code to add metric gathering for image decompression as part of the Snowstorm sprint. You may want to use my branch ( https://bitbucket.org/merov_linden/viewer-development-vwr-22761) and create a baseline for openjpeg then run a test for Jasper. You'll have to sort out the failing cases certainly and just throw them so we compare what gets truly decompressed (though, clearly, working in all cases is pretty critical if we look at Jasper as an alternative). Here's what I got comparing KDU and OpenJpeg: Label Metric KDU(B) OJ2C(T) Diff(T-B) Percentage(100*T/B) ImageCompressionTester-1 TotalBytesInDecompression 5048643 5003370 -45273 99.1 TotalBytesOutDecompression 40415336 46592896 6177560 115.29 TimeTimeDecompression 3.74 17.04 13.3 455.39 ImageCompressionTester-2 TotalBytesInDecompression 5000744 5000144 -600 99.99 TotalBytesOutDecompression 46440040 44248324 -2191716 95.28 TimeTimeDecompression 3.64 15.02 11.37 412.02 For that test, I output data every time 5MB of compressed data have been processed. It's partial but shows that OpenJpeg is roughly 4 times slower than KDU (at least, the version we're using in the official viewer currently). Would be nice to have a similar set of numbers for Jasper before going too far down the implementation path. I wrote a short (and still incompleted) wiki to explain a bit how the metric gathering system works: - https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Performance_Testers BTW, that's something we should be using more generally for other perf sensitive areas, especially when starting a perf improvement project. See http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22761 for details. Cheers, - Merov On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Nicky Fullton wrote: Hello, >> i'm testing in RL office (not or a viewer) JasPer decoder for JPG2000 >> images, after a short test with openjpeg2000 from EPFL we have tested >> last 3 days JasPer (only a POC apps to do some bench), we must do a lot >> of work too, but this is a lil question... anybody here around never >> tried it as alternative to OpenJPEG/KDU in a viewer? >I'm not aware of anyone publishing results for such a test, but if you >have the time it would be interesting reading. You might be interested in: http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/027bf44c5582 I made a rather quick hack to try Jasper instead of OpenJpeg to decode images. The patch has some very rough edges. In fact is the decoding into the LLImageRaw buffer not correct. I did not fix this (yet) because the results so far are not very promising. Jasper can only decode around 20% of the jpeg, for the other 80% it will create an error and then my code falls back to OpenJpeg. This fallback makes the whole decoding rather slow, so it is hard to say if Jasper would really be any faster. Right now I am not sure if it would be reasonable to invest more time looking at Jasper. First the code would need to fixed upstream, so all images can be properly decoded. As this project looks rather dead, one with JPEG2000 knowledge might have to step up for this. On another note, you might like to try: http://bitbucket.org/NickyD/viewer-development/changeset/e4eff3e2af39 This will at least skip the step of calling OpenJpeg in LImageJ2COJ::getMetadata (if possible, it will do sanity checks first). >Some things to keep in >mind. OpenJpeg has patches floating around on its ML against 1.3 that >reports have claimed up to 40% speed increase in places due to >unrolling the inner loops so finding them and testing would be good. I did not find any of those, but then again maybe I did not look hard enough. There is certainly some potential in OpenJpeg. There are some loops in t1_dec_sigpass and t1_dec_refpass that can be easily rewritten. But there is some pretty tricky stuff in t1_dec_clnpass that would need some cleaning and mqc decoder (mqc_decode) burns a lot of time. But that one is especially hairy as it has side effects on its input parameter. I am not sure if anyone without enough deep knowledge of OpenJpeg (and the dedication to recode a good part of it) would be able to improve much of it. Cheers, Nicky _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Tateru Nino Contributing Editor http://massively.com/ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/663e7bd9/attachment-0001.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 05:08:12 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:08:12 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Client side scripting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The hard part isn't coming up with an embedded scripting language, it's not even coming up with a secure set of bindings that don't allow for unanticipated side-effects or privilege escalation, it's integrating the scripting engine into an event loop that wasn't designed to have a scripting engine in it. And designing a secure set of bindings that do something useful without security holes is already pretty damn tough. I would suggest starting with a restricted subset of Javascript in the web engine, for interactive notecards, and see what it takes just to get THAT part secure, reliable, and robust. From secret.argent at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 05:14:40 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:14:40 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> Message-ID: On 2010-09-13, at 00:40, Tateru Nino wrote: > If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the JPEG 2000 format? Since the transfer time of individual textures is vastly reduced (from the first byte to the last byte) the intermediate quality levels supported by jpg2k would seem to be redundant. I'm on a 256k DSL. I have HTTP textures enabled. I still see many intermediate texture levels. Also, for large textures, switching to PNG would likely increase the size of the transfer, which is not good. On the other hand, since both "old" JPG and PNG support progressive decoding, why not use PNG for lossless textures and JPG for lossy ones? Then you don't lose anything. From leonel.morgado at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 05:22:01 2010 From: leonel.morgado at gmail.com (Leonel Morgado) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 13:22:01 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> Message-ID: <4c8e176d.991ce30a.3d91.ffffedbe@mx.google.com> Notice that old JPG does not support alpha channels (transparency). That means abandoning JPEG2000 would in fact force everyone with a single transparent pixel (even if just corners of round textures) to use lossless PNG for that, which is not optimal, to say the least. Int?, Leonel -----Original Message----- From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Argent Stonecutter Sent: segunda-feira, 13 de Setembro de 2010 13:15 To: Tateru Nino Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder On 2010-09-13, at 00:40, Tateru Nino wrote: > If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the JPEG 2000 format? Since the transfer time of individual textures is vastly reduced (from the first byte to the last byte) the intermediate quality levels supported by jpg2k would seem to be redundant. I'm on a 256k DSL. I have HTTP textures enabled. I still see many intermediate texture levels. Also, for large textures, switching to PNG would likely increase the size of the transfer, which is not good. On the other hand, since both "old" JPG and PNG support progressive decoding, why not use PNG for lossless textures and JPG for lossy ones? Then you don't lose anything. _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges Nenhum v?rus encontrado nessa mensagem recebida. Verificado por AVG - www.avgbrasil.com.br Vers?o: 9.0.851 / Banco de dados de v?rus: 271.1.1/3128 - Data de Lan?amento: 09/12/10 19:34:00 From chaosstar at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 05:51:23 2010 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 14:51:23 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <4c8e176d.991ce30a.3d91.ffffedbe@mx.google.com> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> <4c8e176d.991ce30a.3d91.ffffedbe@mx.google.com> Message-ID: It goes even further. JPEG2k is superior in compression ratio compared to quality to both, JPEG and PNG when it comes to lossy and lossless. it is actually a quite awesome image format through and through. The only real problem with JPEG2k are software patents. It's the reason why free decoders like OpenJPEG and JasPer are so much slower compared to KDU. KDU is developed by one of the people sitting in the JPEG2K consortium, and is stuffed with proprietary algorithms. On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 14:22, Leonel Morgado wrote: > Notice that old JPG does not support alpha channels (transparency). That > means abandoning JPEG2000 would in fact force everyone with a single > transparent pixel (even if just corners of round textures) to use lossless > PNG for that, which is not optimal, to say the least. > > Int?, > > Leonel > > > -----Original Message----- > From: opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com > [mailto:opensource-dev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Argent > Stonecutter > Sent: segunda-feira, 13 de Setembro de 2010 13:15 > To: Tateru Nino > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder > > On 2010-09-13, at 00:40, Tateru Nino wrote: >> If we're using HTTP textures, is there actually any need for the JPEG 2000 > format? Since the transfer time of individual textures is vastly reduced > (from the first byte to the last byte) the intermediate quality levels > supported by jpg2k would seem to be redundant. > > I'm on a 256k DSL. I have HTTP textures enabled. I still see many > intermediate texture levels. > > Also, for large textures, switching to PNG would likely increase the size of > the transfer, which is not good. > > On the other hand, since both "old" JPG and PNG support progressive > decoding, why not use PNG for lossless textures and JPG for lossy ones? Then > you don't lose anything. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > Nenhum v?rus encontrado nessa mensagem recebida. > Verificado por AVG - www.avgbrasil.com.br > Vers?o: 9.0.851 / Banco de dados de v?rus: 271.1.1/3128 - Data de > Lan?amento: 09/12/10 19:34:00 > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From oz at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 07:17:10 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 10:17:10 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <4C8BC645.3080502@gmail.com> References: <4C8BC645.3080502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8E3266.2060006@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-11 14:11, Dilly Dobbs wrote: > On 9/11/2010 1:05 PM, Robert Martin wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: >>> We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how >>> to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes >>> i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. >>> Opinions, and ideas on this ? >> I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an >> indoor type inworld location for this?? >> > I think that i would be able to provide us with a meeting place on the > grid. My wife i am sure would be willing to give us a meeting place on > the grid. And i would be willing to foot the group costs as long as > they don't get out of control. > Feel free to use the Hippotropolis Theater http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/241/29/23 or there are some nice meeting spaces both indoor and outdoor in the nearby Open Source Park http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/37/233/22 if there are other in-world resources that would be helpful, contact me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/c1a89249/attachment.htm From dillydobbs at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 07:22:21 2010 From: dillydobbs at gmail.com (dilly dobbs) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:22:21 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: <4C8E3266.2060006@lindenlab.com> References: <4C8BC645.3080502@gmail.com> <4C8E3266.2060006@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Thanks OZ Now we need to get others to come and chat about it and see if we can come up with a plan. I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by Douglas Adams On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-09-11 14:11, Dilly Dobbs wrote: > > On 9/11/2010 1:05 PM, Robert Martin wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:52 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: > > We all seem like intelligent adults that could come to an agreement on how > to add priority to the issues that we would like to see addressed. And yes > i work in an Agile dev software shop so im sorry about the lingo. > Opinions, and ideas on this ? > > I would like to put my paws into this kind of thing could we get an > indoor type inworld location for this?? > > > I think that i would be able to provide us with a meeting place on the > grid. My wife i am sure would be willing to give us a meeting place on > the grid. And i would be willing to foot the group costs as long as > they don't get out of control. > > > > Feel free to use the Hippotropolis Theater > > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/241/29/23 > > or there are some nice meeting spaces both indoor and outdoor in the nearby > Open Source Park > > http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hippotropolis/37/233/22 > > if there are other in-world resources that would be helpful, contact me. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/df1925d9/attachment.htm From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 07:29:29 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:29:29 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: <4C8BC645.3080502@gmail.com> <4C8E3266.2060006@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 3:22 PM, dilly dobbs wrote: > Thanks OZ > Now we need to get others to come and chat about it ?and see if we can come > up with a plan. The best way is to just put out a general call for a meeting with a set a date and a time. Or possibly 2 to try to accommodate different timezones. Then just be prepared to log the meeting and place the results on a wiki somewhere. If you don't just set a date/time you will permanently be herding cats, also be prepared to set an agenda and who ever hosts will need to be a strong chairperson to keep any kind of order ;-) So just post your topic/date/time/slurl and let those who want to contribute turn up. Robin From garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com Mon Sep 13 07:47:28 2010 From: garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com (Garmin Kawaguichi) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:47:28 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is it the last last source code? I say that after reading : https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development/src/tip/indra/lscript/lscript_library/lscript_library.cpp where llClearPrimMedia is the last function. Where are : llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast, llGetLinkPrimitiveParams, llLinkParticleSystem, llSetLinkTextureAnim, llGetLinkNumberOfSides GCI ----- Original Message ----- > Source is live and right here: > https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development > > Read a little for some background and pointers. Link to source is in > the wiki, which is being reorganized a lot to reflect the new > processes. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Snowstorm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/d039d6be/attachment.htm From vexstreeter at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 08:50:42 2010 From: vexstreeter at gmail.com (Vex Streeter) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 11:50:42 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8E4852.2090102@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/c09bd11c/attachment.htm From tofu at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 11:18:31 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 19:18:31 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8E6AF7.8040403@lindenlab.com> LSL-related code in the viewer tree is mostly vestigial at this point - the server code has its own private tree which diverged over a year ago. Garmin Kawaguichi wrote: > Is it the last last source code? > > I say that after reading : > https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development/src/tip/indra/lscript/lscript_library/lscript_library.cpp > where llClearPrimMedia is the last function. Where are : llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast, llGetLinkPrimitiveParams, llLinkParticleSystem, llSetLinkTextureAnim, llGetLinkNumberOfSides > > GCI > > ----- Original Message ----- >> Source is live and right here: >> https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development >> >> Read a little for some background and pointers. Link to source is in >> the wiki, which is being reorganized a lot to reflect the new >> processes. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Snowstorm > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From sythos at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 11:44:16 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:44:16 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:47:28 +0200 "Garmin Kawaguichi" wrote: > Is it the last last source code? > > I say that after reading : > https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development/src/tip/indra/lscript/lscript_library/lscript_library.cpp > where llClearPrimMedia is the last function. Where are : > llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast, llGetLinkPrimitiveParams, > llLinkParticleSystem, llSetLinkTextureAnim, llGetLinkNumberOfSides mono script are server side compiled, i think all these are inside internal LL branch From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Mon Sep 13 12:50:35 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:50:35 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Retaining Newbies (Was: The Plan for Snowglobe) In-Reply-To: References: <4C8BC645.3080502@gmail.com> <4C8E3266.2060006@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C8E808B.10801@fishkill.ibm.com> dilly dobbs wrote: > Now we need to get others to come and chat about it and see if we can > come up with a plan. Have a look at VWR-10293 and don't skip all of the closed issues there. Many were closed because of Linden's perception that they had fixed the new user experience when they got rid of Orientation Islands and sent new residents to Help Islands instead and no other improvements were needed. From cg at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 16:16:01 2010 From: cg at lindenlab.com (CG Linden) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:16:01 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: I believe that that code is used for the syntax highlighting - and indeed, " llGetLinkPrimitiveParams()" doesn't highlight in the viewer... -- cg On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Altair Sythos wrote: > On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:47:28 +0200 > "Garmin Kawaguichi" wrote: > > > Is it the last last source code? > > > > I say that after reading : > > > https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development/src/tip/indra/lscript/lscript_library/lscript_library.cpp > > where llClearPrimMedia is the last function. Where are : > > llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast, llGetLinkPrimitiveParams, > > llLinkParticleSystem, llSetLinkTextureAnim, llGetLinkNumberOfSides > > mono script are server side compiled, i think all these are inside > internal LL branch > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/dde00a5a/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 16:31:46 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:31:46 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 09/13/2010 Message-ID: Date: Mon Sep 13, 2010 Also available here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive *=== General Notes ===* * Last day of Sprint 3! * Merge Monkey of the Day: Merov *===Team Status===* * * * ====Aimee Linden==== PAST * STORM-121 Clean-up of voice client shutdown FUTURE * STORM-121 Finish off. IMPEDIMENTS * None. ====Tofu Linden==== PAST * llTextBox * Lots of Integrations! * Got my TeamCity staging task working FUTURE * llTextBox will definitely carry-over to the next sprint, lots still to do * Some OOO IMPEDIMENTS * none. ====Oz Linden==== PAST * Updated review and submission workflow descriptions * filing some new VWR issues * fixed Jira helpers around Hippotropolis * KDU license (met w/ contracts person to get started) FUTURE * Work on getting a codereview system set up * Office Hour * Wiki updates for getting source IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Merov Linden==== PAST * STORM-115, 116, 117, 118: wrote acceptance criteria / test plans for each of those issues * STORM-106: Chat translator: wrote acceptance criteria / test plan. Pulled into viewer-development. * VWR-22769 : libPNG build: Boroondas patch is making assumptions on symlinks that are accurate on Linux but not on Mac and Windows. We need to so this differently if at all. FUTURE * STORM-104 (VWR-22761) : LLKDU upgrade. More on perf tracking while waiting for license to clear and new version to come. * Snowglobe backlog: go through that old list and migrate things to Snowstorm. IMPEDIMENTS * Kakadu license upgrade ====Q Linden==== PAST * Working on STORM-102 and STORM-103. They are not ready for primtime. Q will tackle those. Would like to get that into the next sprint for a task. FUTURE * Continued work on STORM 102 and STORM 103 * VWR triage * Prep for Sprint 4 IMPEDIMENTS * None ====Esbee Linden==== PAST * Send Q draft of Jira VWR workflow notes * Set up sprints in GH * Move Product Backlog to a "Version" in Jira to separate it from incoming bugs * VWR triage FUTURE * Schedule meeting with Orange, Gentle, and LordGregGreg. * Send request to XD for friend permissions icons. * Write UI customization blog post. * Write end of Sprint 3 wrap-up blog post * VWR triage * Prep for Sprint 4 * Modify process for sending Viewer ideas/feature requests IMPEDIMENTS * None ====Paul ProductEngine==== PAST Thu *VWR-22890 (Undocked profile panels loses verb buttons after minimize/restore) **In progress ~ 3 hours. Fri * STORM-93 (Appearance > 'Wearing' tab: Add Take off / Detach function to the gear menu) **Pushed *STORM-91 (Corrupted vertical scroll bar appears on 'Edit Outfit' panel if height of 'Add More' panel was changed) ** Pushed *STORM-89 (Undocked profile panels loses verb buttons after minimize/restore) **Fixed *VWR-22330 (Remove delay so that inspector affordance appears immediately) **Investigated and started working on. Estimate ~ 6 hours. FUTURE * vacation IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Andrew ProductEngine==== PAST Thu: * Bug VWR-22008 (People you called via Adhoc are not shown in Recent tab). **Asked Anya question in JIRA * Bug VWR-22888 (Empty space appears in the top of Home side panel after redocking) ** Looked for fix for a while, found a hack, but fortunately won't need to use it, b/c Vadim's fix for other issue fixes this as well. Reassigned to Vadim. * STORM-94 (Increase minimum width allowed for undocked panels) **Fixed, ready for integration. *STORM-97 (Back button in the undocked Landmark Info panel moves out of panel on width resize) **Fixed, ready for integration. *STORM-99 (Select button inside Resident Chooser is disabled if invoke sharing from undocked My Inventory panel) **Started investigating. No estimate yet. Fri *Bug STORM-99 (Select button inside Resident Chooser is disabled if invoke sharing from undocked My Inventory panel) ** Found both problems causing bug, fixed, need an hour to clean up and polish & will send for review FUTURE * Finish STORM-99 (Select button inside Resident Chooser is disabled if invoke sharing from undocked My Inventory panel). * Create ticket for resize of nearby chat appearing only on click and will start on it. * Will clear out tickets currently assigned to mew - a few can be closed. IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Vadim ProductEngine==== PAST Thu *Bug VWR-22896 aka STORM-92 (Panel state resets on dock/undock): **Fixed. *Bug VWR-22888 aka STORM-96 (Empty space appears in the top of Home side panel after redocking): **Fixed. *Bug STORM-98 (Update art for People and Groups default/placeholder icons): **Fixed, but asked Epic a question before commit to be safe. *Major bug VWR-22921 aka STORM-101 (Sidebar settings should be account specific): **Investigated, asked Andrey, will continue tomorrow *jira-wrangling *Fixed Paul's build again (problem with current Linux dist) *Code review Fri: * mostly administrative: ** Fixed tickets with known incorrect status ** Moved VWR tickets to STORM that we will be working on ** Discussed JIRA issues with Sue. She fixed them super-fast ** Code review, meetings, reports * Bug STORM-98 (Update art for People and Groups default/placeholder icons): ** Fixed. * Major bug STORM-90 (Only attachments are worn if multi-select items on 'My Outfits' tab and press 'Wear' button): ** Could not reproduce. *Major bug STORM-101 (Sidebar settings should be account specific): ** WIP, not much progress yet. FUTURE * Finish STORM-101 * Other bugs. IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Seth ProductEngine (Sergey)==== OOO - Vacation ====Andrey ProductEngine==== PAST Thu * prepared checklist for VWR-20694 * ran VWR-20694 checklist, see shared spreadsheet Sprint2-r209053 * reported and linked bunch of tickets related to VWR-20694 Fri * almost done regression testing of sidebar panels on r209053, see already shared spreadsheet FUTURE * continue regression suite revision * upcoming build testing (?) IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Grumpity ProductEngine (Anya)==== PAST *played with new jira *workflow followup *server testing followup FUTURE *detachable sidebar & bottom bar review *transition issues from VWR to STORM? *update sprint backlog IMPEDIMENTS *cannot transition issues from VWR to STORM * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/40107eaf/attachment-0001.htm From kelly at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 16:32:46 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:32:46 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd love to see that syntax highlighting and hover tip code replaced, we really shouldn't need anything in lscript in the viewer. If the syntax highlighting / hover tips could be read from an LLSD we could provide a capability 'lsl-syntax' which could be queried for a version or the whole map. Then you could get accurate syntax highlighting for the sim you are on independent of the viewer. - Kelly On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:16 PM, CG Linden wrote: > I believe that that code is used for the syntax highlighting - and indeed, > " llGetLinkPrimitiveParams()" doesn't highlight in the viewer... > -- > cg > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Altair Sythos wrote: > >> On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:47:28 +0200 >> "Garmin Kawaguichi" wrote: >> >> > Is it the last last source code? >> > >> > I say that after reading : >> > >> https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development/src/tip/indra/lscript/lscript_library/lscript_library.cpp >> > where llClearPrimMedia is the last function. Where are : >> > llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast, llGetLinkPrimitiveParams, >> > llLinkParticleSystem, llSetLinkTextureAnim, llGetLinkNumberOfSides >> >> mono script are server side compiled, i think all these are inside >> internal LL branch >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/fbc30253/attachment.htm From nexisentertainment at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 16:40:33 2010 From: nexisentertainment at gmail.com (Rob Nelson) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:40:33 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8EB671.2010101@gmail.com> As I recall, all that lscript stuff was to compile the LSL bytecode and give it to the server. It shouldn't be needed anymore since the server compiles everything itself... Rob On 9/13/2010 4:32 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > I'd love to see that syntax highlighting and hover tip code replaced, > we really shouldn't need anything in lscript in the viewer. If the > syntax highlighting / hover tips could be read from an LLSD we could > provide a capability 'lsl-syntax' which could be queried for a version > or the whole map. Then you could get accurate syntax highlighting for > the sim you are on independent of the viewer. > > - Kelly > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:16 PM, CG Linden > wrote: > > I believe that that code is used for the syntax highlighting - > and indeed, " llGetLinkPrimitiveParams()" doesn't highlight in the > viewer... > -- > cg > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Altair Sythos > wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:47:28 +0200 > "Garmin Kawaguichi" > wrote: > > > Is it the last last source code? > > > > I say that after reading : > > > https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-development/src/tip/indra/lscript/lscript_library/lscript_library.cpp > > where llClearPrimMedia is the last function. Where are : > > llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast, llGetLinkPrimitiveParams, > > llLinkParticleSystem, llSetLinkTextureAnim, > llGetLinkNumberOfSides > > mono script are server side compiled, i think all these are inside > internal LL branch > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/caeb1fb1/attachment.htm From josh at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 16:48:38 2010 From: josh at lindenlab.com (Joshua Bell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:48:38 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > I'd love to see that syntax highlighting and hover tip code replaced, we > really shouldn't need anything in lscript in the viewer. If the syntax > highlighting / hover tips could be read from an LLSD we could provide a > capability 'lsl-syntax' which could be queried for a version or the whole > map. Then you could get accurate syntax highlighting for the sim you are on > independent of the viewer. > At the risk of designing this via email... oh, what the heck. User story: "As a developer of LSL scripts, I want LSL the syntax highlighting dictionary to be updated automagically so I don't have to upgrade my viewer whenever new LSL functions or keywords are added." Per-sim versioning is a nice-to-have but we could probably start simpler and have a per-grid resource. During login, the viewer can be given the URL to an LLSD resource it can *lazily* request. (We do this for other grid-wide services.) We could later choose to extend this to be a capability granted by the simulator, which the viewer could query on each region change (when it gets a new seed cap) to give the granularity Kelly describes above. The server side changes to deliver a static URL to an LLSD resource from login are minimal; if someone wants to take a stab at the client side changes and defining a forward-looking LLSD format, I'm sure you'll find a server-side champion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/37914330/attachment.htm From elllamcmahon at googlemail.com Mon Sep 13 17:43:20 2010 From: elllamcmahon at googlemail.com (Ellla McMahon) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 01:43:20 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is this JIRA related VWR-20031 Automatic download of syntax-table ?? Perhaps add your comments and votes : ) On 14 September 2010 00:48, Joshua Bell wrote: > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > >> I'd love to see that syntax highlighting and hover tip code replaced, we >> really shouldn't need anything in lscript in the viewer. If the syntax >> highlighting / hover tips could be read from an LLSD we could provide a >> capability 'lsl-syntax' which could be queried for a version or the whole >> map. Then you could get accurate syntax highlighting for the sim you are on >> independent of the viewer. >> > > At the risk of designing this via email... oh, what the heck. > > User story: "As a developer of LSL scripts, I want LSL the syntax > highlighting dictionary to be updated automagically so I don't have to > upgrade my viewer whenever new LSL functions or keywords are added." > > Per-sim versioning is a nice-to-have but we could probably start simpler > and have a per-grid resource. During login, the viewer can be given the URL > to an LLSD resource it can *lazily* request. (We do this for other grid-wide > services.) > > We could later choose to extend this to be a capability granted by the > simulator, which the viewer could query on each region change (when it gets > a new seed cap) to give the granularity Kelly describes above. > > The server side changes to deliver a static URL to an LLSD resource from > login are minimal; if someone wants to take a stab at the client side > changes and defining a forward-looking LLSD format, I'm sure you'll find a > server-side champion. > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100914/0d7b8d80/attachment.htm From yoz at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 17:56:36 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:56:36 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 13 September 2010 16:48, Joshua Bell wrote: > > The server side changes to deliver a static URL to an LLSD resource from > login are minimal; if someone wants to take a stab at the client side > changes and defining a forward-looking LLSD format, I'm sure you'll find a > server-side champion. > Hello! (Ghengis and I recently made a long-overdue login.cgi fix that makes this kind of change only require login.xml changes, though we still need to merge it.) -- Yoz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/5ff5467f/attachment-0001.htm From dave at meadowlakearts.com Mon Sep 13 20:11:58 2010 From: dave at meadowlakearts.com (Dave Booth) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:11:58 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source In-Reply-To: References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C8EE7FE.4020707@meadowlakearts.com> On 9/13/2010 19:56, Yoz Grahame wrote: > > On 13 September 2010 16:48, Joshua Bell > wrote: > > > The server side changes to deliver a static URL to an LLSD > resource from login are minimal; if someone wants to take a stab > at the client side changes and defining a forward-looking LLSD > format, I'm sure you'll find a server-side champion. > > > Hello! > (Ghengis and I recently made a long-overdue login.cgi fix that makes > this kind of change only require login.xml changes, though we still > need to merge it.) > > -- Yoz > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges Get it QA'd and merged dude :) From merov at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 21:15:52 2010 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 21:15:52 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> <4c8e176d.991ce30a.3d91.ffffedbe@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, Very interesting discussion though it seems that folks collide several things when talking about "textures" in general terms: there's a load of difference between a repetitive 64x64 texture used to tile a brick wall and a photographic quality 1024x1024 texture. The former could certainly benefit from being stored and sent around as PNG (low format overhead, lossly compression will actually make things worse on such a small image no matter what, and lossless jpeg will end up being bigger than PNG) while the later will benefit tremendously from the wavelet compression provided by jpeg2000. I won't go into the advantage of wavelet compression for photographic images as there is a *huge* literature on the subject with loads and loads of data proving the point. One can argue between "normal" jpeg (using DCT) and jpeg2000 (using wavelets) but there's absolutely no contest between jpeg (whichever flavor) and png for photographic images in term of quality at high or even moderate compression ratio. On the subject of access per resolution (aka "discard levels" in SL parlance), it is of great interest as some folks mentioned when viewing a texture from a distance. No matter what's the transport protocol, exchanging a 32x32 will be faster than exchanging a 1024x1024 (with RGBA pixel values...). The viewer is able to use partially populated mipmaps (which are, in effect, subres pyramids themselves as there isn't much difference between "discard level" and LOD...) and, therefore, use partially downloaded and decompressed images. Note that with jpeg2000 when asking for a new level, one does not download the whole full res 32 bits per pixels data but the wavelet coefficients for that level which are, roughly speaking, encoding the difference with the previous level. That translate in huge compression benefits in slowly changing areas in particular. One wavelet property though that our viewer does not take advantage of is the spatial random access property of the jpeg2000 format. That would allow for instance to request and download only a portion of the full res data when needed. That is advantageous in cases where only a portion of the whole image is mapped on a prim for instance. I've no data though to know if it's a frequent case in SL but that would be interesting to know how much of a texture is truly displayed on average. There's may be an interesting ore of performance to mine there. All that though needs to be backed by data. This preliminary performance gathering toolbox I talked about is a first step in that direction. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/3ee9b957/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 13 22:43:59 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:43:59 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Reminder: No Daily Scrum tomorrow (9/14) - Instead, Sprint Planning from 7-9am PT Message-ID: Hi all, Just a quick reminder that we won't meet tomorrow at 6:30am PT for the Daily Scrum. Instead we'll meet from 7-9am PT for Sprint 4 Planning. With the big Jira switchover, I'm a bit behind organizing stories and defects for this sprint, but will try to get us ready tonight! See you tomorrow! Best, Esbee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100913/84c86679/attachment.htm From nexisentertainment at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 00:18:30 2010 From: nexisentertainment at gmail.com (Rob Nelson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 00:18:30 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiling Snowglobe Message-ID: <4C8F21C6.1010303@gmail.com> So I've got a recent-ish snowglobe source tree on Windows 7. It compiles fine on Linux. However, on Windows it's a hellish nightmare, and the wiki might as well be talking about compiling 1.23. I've asked 3 separate IRC channels with few positive results. My current problem is with the libraries. VC80 screams about missing VC80 boost libraries. I looked in the libraries folder and found that it had VC90 boost libraries (according to the filenames, anyway), so I spent an hour installing and configuring VC90 only to find that it is almost as broken as VC2010, flooding me with "unresolved external" errors when linking with any non-boost lib. So, is there anywhere I can find VC80 boost binaries compatible with SnowGlobe? (The prebuilt tarballs that LL provides only come with VC90 libs.) If not, how do I get this thing to build? Which voodoo god must I sacrifice my firstborn to? Rob From akanevsky at productengine.com Tue Sep 14 00:39:16 2010 From: akanevsky at productengine.com (Anya Kanevsky) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 00:39:16 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] [SNOWSTORM] Reminder: No Daily Scrum tomorrow (9/14) - Instead, Sprint Planning from 7-9am PT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Esbee, for organizing! I updated etherpad with Monday's summaries anyway. May be a little late to the planning but hope to make it. a 2010/9/13 Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson > Hi all, > > Just a quick reminder that we won't meet tomorrow at 6:30am PT for the > Daily Scrum. Instead we'll meet from 7-9am PT for Sprint 4 Planning. > > With the big Jira switchover, I'm a bit behind organizing stories and > defects for this sprint, but will try to get us ready tonight! > > See you tomorrow! > > Best, > Esbee > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100914/0d4533d6/attachment.htm From garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com Tue Sep 14 02:17:08 2010 From: garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com (Garmin Kawaguichi) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:17:08 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] where is the source References: <4C8C6E63.4090009@gmail.com> <20100913204416.1691db89.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <91B00A9FC8E347E2A00305341C483A71@Deimos> OK! Thank you! I understood that: The table in lscript_library.cpp is not a sign of an updated source. GCI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tofu Linden" > LSL-related code in the viewer tree is mostly vestigial at this point - > the server code has its own private tree which diverged over a year >ago. From: "Altair Sythos Memo" To: "Garmin Kawaguichi" Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 8:44 PM > mono script are server side compiled, i think all these are inside > internal LL branch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100914/12f3a85c/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 04:35:09 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 06:35:09 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] J2C fast decoder In-Reply-To: <4c8e176d.991ce30a.3d91.ffffedbe@mx.google.com> References: <123807.31328.qm@web120013.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88D68F7EF1994E8591B2631BDF6485FF@kenb> <4C8DB941.1040309@taterunino.net> <4c8e176d.991ce30a.3d91.ffffedbe@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <41B8D7A6-84E7-457F-B670-B97BA26CB3D7@gmail.com> On 2010-09-13, at 07:22, Leonel Morgado wrote: > Notice that old JPG does not support alpha channels (transparency). That > means abandoning JPEG2000 would in fact force everyone with a single > transparent pixel (even if just corners of round textures) to use lossless > PNG for that, which is not optimal, to say the least. Doh. You are absolutely right. My bad. From malachi at tamzap.com Tue Sep 14 04:35:20 2010 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 07:35:20 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiling Snowglobe In-Reply-To: <4C8F21C6.1010303@gmail.com> References: <4C8F21C6.1010303@gmail.com> Message-ID: yes you can get the boost you need at http://www.boostpro.com/download/ On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 03:18:30 -0400, Rob Nelson wrote: > So I've got a recent-ish snowglobe source tree on Windows 7. It > compiles fine on Linux. However, on Windows it's a hellish nightmare, > and the wiki might as well be talking about compiling 1.23. I've asked > 3 separate IRC channels with few positive results. > > My current problem is with the libraries. VC80 screams about missing > VC80 boost libraries. I looked in the libraries folder and found that > it had VC90 boost libraries (according to the filenames, anyway), so I > spent an hour installing and configuring VC90 only to find that it is > almost as broken as VC2010, flooding me with "unresolved external" > errors when linking with any non-boost lib. > > So, is there anywhere I can find VC80 boost binaries compatible with > SnowGlobe? (The prebuilt tarballs that LL provides only come with VC90 > libs.) If not, how do I get this thing to build? Which voodoo god must > I sacrifice my firstborn to? > > Rob > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 04:54:30 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:54:30 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiling Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C8F21C6.1010303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:35 PM, malachi wrote: > yes you can get the boost you need at http://www.boostpro.com/download/ > On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 03:18:30 -0400, Rob Nelson > wrote: > Are you sure they work with snowglobe/snowstorm? Any boost libs used MUST be compiled with SECURE_SCL=0 in order to be compatable with the secondlife source code compile options, and depending on the version of boost /winSDK you may also need to add SECURE_STL=0 and neither of these are default options so my past experience has shown the libs from boostpro do not work for SL. What is wrong with the libs provided with snowglobe/snowstorm on Visual Studio 2005? is this some new problem that they do not work? they have always worked fine for me on multiple systems and sdks. If you are looking for libs for 2008 see http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541, which has a link to my boost builds for 2008 http://www.byteme.org.uk/downloads/boost_1_39_VC90_no_scl_shared_crt_static_link.zip (as the LL supplied ones for 2008 do not function). Robin From aimee at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 14 06:07:55 2010 From: aimee at lindenlab.com (Aimee Linden) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 14:07:55 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Code review request: STORM-121 (Cleanup of Voice Client shutdown) References: <8AE66CCC-C74A-44D3-BB86-21CD813AFAF9@ama-zing.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi, Would someone mind code-reviewing this change ... http://bitbucket.org/aimee_linden/viewer-development-fixes/changeset/836266aa8302 Just some simple reduction of duplicated code to ensure things get cleaned up properly when the voice client shuts down. Aimee. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100914/53165742/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 14 06:31:22 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 06:31:22 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] [SNOWSTORM] Reminder: No Daily Scrum tomorrow (9/14) - Instead, Sprint Planning from 7-9am PT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great! Thanks, Anya. We'll still do a Daily Scrum update this morning - we'll use the first few minutes of the Sprint Planning meeting to do that. So hopefully by the time you arrive we'll be in Sprint Planning mode :) - Esbee On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Anya Kanevsky wrote: > Thank you, Esbee, for organizing! > > I updated etherpad with Monday's summaries anyway. > May be a little late to the planning but hope to make it. > > a > > 2010/9/13 Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson > > Hi all, >> >> Just a quick reminder that we won't meet tomorrow at 6:30am PT for the >> Daily Scrum. Instead we'll meet from 7-9am PT for Sprint 4 Planning. >> >> With the big Jira switchover, I'm a bit behind organizing stories and >> defects for this sprint, but will try to get us ready tonight! >> >> See you tomorrow! >> >> Best, >> Esbee >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100914/ccf37a4d/attachment.htm From malachi at tamzap.com Tue Sep 14 06:31:57 2010 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:31:57 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiling Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C8F21C6.1010303@gmail.com> Message-ID: i am a windows 7 user using visual studio 2005 and i installed my own boost library from that site. snowglobe compiles with 0 errors. though i did copy and paste every single lib and dll file from boost to the library folder of the client folder lol. but still no errors mate. On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 07:54:30 -0400, Robin Cornelius wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:35 PM, malachi wrote: >> yes you can get the boost you need at http://www.boostpro.com/download/ >> On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 03:18:30 -0400, Rob Nelson >> wrote: >> > > Are you sure they work with snowglobe/snowstorm? > > Any boost libs used MUST be compiled with SECURE_SCL=0 in order to be > compatable with the secondlife source code compile options, and > depending on the version of boost /winSDK you may also need to add > SECURE_STL=0 and neither of these are default options so my past > experience has shown the libs from boostpro do not work for SL. > > What is wrong with the libs provided with snowglobe/snowstorm on > Visual Studio 2005? is this some new problem that they do not work? > they have always worked fine for me on multiple systems and sdks. > > If you are looking for libs for 2008 see > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-9541, which has a link to my > boost builds for 2008 > http://www.byteme.org.uk/downloads/boost_1_39_VC90_no_scl_shared_crt_static_link.zip > (as the LL supplied ones for 2008 do not function). > > > Robin -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From xotmid at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 06:41:48 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 08:41:48 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiling Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C8F21C6.1010303@gmail.com> Message-ID: Vs 2008 is actuality broke for the viewer due to cmake errors a bunch of if calls look only for vs 2005 use 2005. On Sep 14, 2010 8:32 AM, "malachi" wrote: i am a windows 7 user using visual studio 2005 and i installed my own boost library from that site. snowglobe compiles with 0 errors. though i did copy and paste every single lib and dll file from boost to the library folder of the client folder lol. but still no errors mate. On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 07:54:30 -0400, Robin Cornelius wrote: > On Tue,... -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ __________________________... Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-De... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100914/df83d4e8/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 06:50:32 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:50:32 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: <4C8E4852.2090102@gmail.com> Message-ID: I tried the latest release Sunday, and out has this problem. I also tried to increase ulimit, but it didn't fix it. On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Lee Sailer wrote: > I tried the latest release Sunday, and out has this problem.? I also tried > to increase ulimit, but it didn't fix it. > > droid... From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 07:27:56 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 15:27:56 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Compiling Snowglobe In-Reply-To: References: <4C8F21C6.1010303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Brandon Husbands wrote: > Vs 2008 is actuality broke for the viewer due to cmake errors a bunch of if > calls look only for vs 2005 use 2005. https://bitbucket.org/robincornelius/viewer-development-vwr-20879 contains the patches needed to work with 2008 (and express) with less fuss, the repository is lagging a little behind viewer-development tip but it should merge to latest fine. Robin From tofu at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 14 09:27:19 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:27:19 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] [SNOWSTORM] Code review request: STORM-121 (Cleanup of Voice Client shutdown) In-Reply-To: References: <8AE66CCC-C74A-44D3-BB86-21CD813AFAF9@ama-zing.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C8FA267.1000704@lindenlab.com> r+ Aimee Linden wrote: > Hi, > > Would someone mind code-reviewing this change ... > > http://bitbucket.org/aimee_linden/viewer-development-fixes/changeset/836266aa8302 > > Just some simple reduction of duplicated code to ensure things get cleaned up properly when the voice client shuts down. > > Aimee. > > From esbee at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 14 12:38:44 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:38:44 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm Daily Scrum Summary - 09/14/2010 Message-ID: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 Also available here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowstorm_Daily_Scrum_Archive *=== General Notes ===* * First day of Sprint 4! Sprint Planning Meeting today from 7-9am PT * Sprint 4 declared, "The Maintenance Sprint!" *===Team Status===* * * * ====Aimee Linden==== PAST * Clean up voice client shutdown, which turned out less of a problem than I suspected, that's ready for code review, requested on the lists * Wrapping up some legal paperwork FUTURE * Kick off Sprint 4! IMPEDIMENTS * None. ====Tofu Linden==== Not available for Daily Scrum today ====Oz Linden==== PAST * Work on getting a codereview system set up * Office Hour FUTURE * Push codereview system more... * Wiki updates for getting source IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Merov Linden==== PAST * STORM-106, 115, 116, 117, 118: move those to "Integrated" * STORM-130 (VWR-22769) : libPNG build: Tried a change that allows for Boroondas change for standalone builders to be taken without breaking TC builds and those of us using prebuilt binaries. Waiting for TC to cycle through it. * Snowglobe backlog: moved a bunch of JIRAs and created a bunch more that have SG2.x fixes but are still unfixed in viewer 2.1. Emailed to Esbee. * Emailed opensource-dev on perf tracking (while talking about jpeg2000 properties) FUTURE * STORM-104 (VWR-22761) : LLKDU upgrade. More on perf tracking while waiting for license to clear and new version to come. * Snowstorm backlog: more on this IMPEDIMENTS * Kakadu license upgrade ====Q Linden==== PAST * Talked to Wolfpup about taking over SNOW-102 and SNOW-103, no progress since yesterday FUTURE * Kick off Sprint 4! IMPEDIMENTS * None ====Esbee Linden==== PAST * Met with Q about Jira triage, and related Snowstorm process * Touched base with Orange, Gentle, and LordGregGreg about mtg next week after my move * Clean up Jira proposal * Lots of email * Prep for Sprint 4 FUTURE * Sprint 4 Planning * Backlog grooming & new feature request review * Send request to XD for friend permissions icons. * Write UI customization blog post. * Write end of Sprint 3 wrap-up blog post * VWR triage * Modify process for sending Viewer ideas/feature requests IMPEDIMENTS * None ====Paul ProductEngine==== OOO- vacation ====Andrew ProductEngine==== PAST * Bug STORM-99 (Select button inside Resident Chooser is disabled if invoke sharing from undocked My Inventory panel) ** Fixed and sent for integration. * Bug STORM-114 (IM chat history log in plain text mode looks ugly when displays avatar SLURLs) ** Sent for integration. * Bug STORM-123 (Resizing ability of nearby chatbar in bottomtray appears only after click) ** Created, fixed and sent for integration. * Bug STORM-124 (Replace "no matches found" with "loading" in the My Outfits tab) ** Closed as resolved. * Bug STORM-125 (The change of "My title" is saved without pressing "Save" button in the Group Profile) ** Closed as resolved. * Bug STORM-126 (Offline participants of Add hoc chat are shown in Recent Tab) ** Closed as resolved. * Bug STORM-109 (Undocked Block List panel has no horizontal scrollbar + verbs have fixed size) ** Closed as cannot reproduce. * Bug STORM-111 (Camera view angle resets during outfit editing when docking/undocking Edit Outfit panel) ** Closed as cannot reproduce. * Bug STORM-112 (EOLs are displayed as "squares" in the pick descriptions after minimize/restore undocked profile panel) ** Started investigating. Estimate 12h. FUTURE * STORM-112. IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Vadim ProductEngine==== PAST * Major bug STORM-101 (Sidebar settings should be account specific): ** Fixed. * Bug STORM-110 (Add More sub-panel resets its size if minimize/restore undocked Edit Outfit panel): ** Nasty bug. In current implementation of floater minimization (floater contents doesn't hide when minimized, but shriks, which moves panels in layout stack, including Add More) it's difficult to fix. Redoing floater minimization will cause a ton of new bugs. I have a crooked hack/fix. If I can still live with it in the morning, will commit. Otherwise will close bug as Will not fix FUTURE * STORM-110. IMPEDIMENTS * none ====Seth ProductEngine (Sergey)==== PAST * Getting familiar with new JIRA workflow. * BUG (STORM-108) Undocked Item Profile panel has no scrollbars ** Fixed FUTURE * BUG (VWR-22166) 'Item Profile' panel isn't udated if change name of that item from 'Object contents' floater ** Estimated: 4 hours * BUG (VWR-22157) My Landmarks: 'Cut' item should be greyed out in folder's context menu ** Estimated: 4 hours IMPEDIMENTS *These issues should be resolved as Fixed: ** (VWR-21132) [BSI] scroll bar resets to near the top of inventory search ** (VWR-21085) Scroller doesn't follow the cursor if cursor is being moved by keyboard arrow buttons ====Andrey ProductEngine==== PAST * smoke test on Win7/OSX against r209332 * tested bottom bar buttons drug&drop * re-tested fixes related to sidebar panels dock/undock FUTURE * regression testing in scope of changes since 209053 IMPEDIMENTS * VWR-20702 subtasks are Awaiting Review, but QA Status == Ready to QA * some VWR-20694 linked bugs are Awaiting Review as well, but fixes already included into r209332 ====Grumpity ProductEngine (Anya)==== PAST * sprint retrospective * jira wranging with Sue ** created ProducEngine-specifc context to allow all admin tasks to happen in one place ** approved by didn't happen as we wanted it. will keep looking. * reports, updates FUTURE * sprint planning * try to get "Approved by" on main view in jira & as a dropdown user picker when doing the approving (like assignee field when creating new issue) * make sure issues with incorrect status are transitioned through jira * figure out how to indicate code review status in jira (esbee/oz/sue) IMPEDIMENTS * none * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100914/deb393f5/attachment-0001.htm From dave at meadowlakearts.com Tue Sep 14 14:30:18 2010 From: dave at meadowlakearts.com (Dave Booth) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 16:30:18 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Bug report or feature request? Message-ID: <4C8FE96A.7010901@meadowlakearts.com> In pretty much all v2 viewers, including development, I've noticed a weird behavior with group notices... When they arrive you get a little notification in the bottom right of the screen and that persists for a short time and then goes away exactly as one would expect... However if you subsequently go to the icon in the bottom bar and pull up the notification history then click on one of the notifications for a group notice because you want to read it, the floater that comes up to display the notice ALSO fades out after a few seconds, even when its focused and you're half way through reading the notice. Intended behavior or not? Either way I need to file a Jira, but if its intended behavior I'll be making it a feature request to allow me to stop this rather than a bug report. Seems to me that when a notice has been explicitly pulled up to read it then it shouldnt go away until explicitly dismissed. Or am I just missing something in the settings somewhere? Dave From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 14:58:25 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:58:25 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: <4C8E4852.2090102@gmail.com> Message-ID: Latest data... On my mac, when I open a terminal window, the default for ulimit is 256. I wrote a little loop to monitor files... while true do lsof -c Second | wc -l done it appears that when Viewer2 (regular of dev) is started, this number goes to about 63 or so. Not always the same. Viewer 2 Release: When I login, or TP to a new region, this number jumpt to about 76. I assume extra file handles used for HTTP sockets to fetch textures. Viewer 2 Dev: Login or TP to region (needing new textures?) and the file count jumps to 300, and the error message dnssd_clientstub deliver_request: socketpair failed 24 (Too many open files) starts flooding my syslog.log file at more than 500 per second. Hypotheses: somebody upped some limit or constant and assumed Mac OSX was a lot higher than 300. PART 2: I started the client from a window in which I used ulimit -n 512. Behavior of Viewer2 Dev is the same. The file count jumps to 300, but the viewer freezes. I guess that the ulimit is set somewhere from within the viewer, so that the shell's ulimit is ignored. From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 15:50:59 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 18:50:59 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: <4C8E4852.2090102@gmail.com> References: <4C8E4852.2090102@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Vex Streeter wrote: > Check out http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-22757 and > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-18427 Looks like the same issue. I added some of my data there. > I don't know why 209046 would be worse than prior releases, but it would be > nice to know that OSX builds do or don't have the same issue. Not just 209046. It has been three or four of the 2.1.2 Dev builds. I cannot do anything, really, except report this same bug, since it has made all of the DEV builds unusable for me. > From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 15:52:00 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 18:52:00 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: <20100909231407.c3cccce3.sythos@gmail.com> References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> <20100909223353.feeae980.sythos@gmail.com> <20100909231407.c3cccce3.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 5:14 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: > On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:59:42 -0400 > Ponzu wrote: > >> > >> > ehm... in advanced/develop menu do you have enabled debug for GL and >> > pipeline? :) No, these are not turned on. From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 16:37:42 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 19:37:42 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> <20100909223353.feeae980.sythos@gmail.com> <20100909231407.c3cccce3.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: i am trying to browse the code, looking for some where that perhaps an http socket should be freed or closed, or not allocated, but is not... I have found this: indra/newview/lltexturefetch.cpp: void relese() { --mActiveCount; } i don't understand it yet, but it doesn't pass the smell test. This function relese does not seem to be called from anywhere I have found so far. Also, it is misspelled. It seems related to de-allocating something. Someone who already knows what is going on inside lltexturefetch.cpp can probably tell me that relese() is OK, but I wanted to mention it just in case. From latifer at streamgrid.net Tue Sep 14 17:08:48 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 02:08:48 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Bug report or feature request? In-Reply-To: <4C8FE96A.7010901@meadowlakearts.com> References: <4C8FE96A.7010901@meadowlakearts.com> Message-ID: I found this behavior to be very irritating as well. The only way to keep the notice from disappearing is to keep mouse pointer over it. It needs to be fixed in any case, but I don't know what would be the proper way to suggest a change. On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Dave Booth wrote: > ?In pretty much all v2 viewers, including development, I've noticed a > weird behavior with group notices... When they arrive you get a little > notification in the bottom right of the screen and that persists for a > short time and then goes away exactly as one would expect... However if > you subsequently go to the icon in the bottom bar and pull up the > notification history then click on one of the notifications for a group > notice because you want to read it, the floater that comes up to display > the notice ALSO fades out after a few seconds, even when its focused and > you're half way through reading the notice. Intended behavior or not? > Either way I need to file a Jira, but if its intended behavior I'll be > making it a feature request to allow me to stop this rather than a bug > report. Seems to me that when a notice has been explicitly pulled up to > read it then it shouldnt go away until explicitly dismissed. > > Or am I just missing something in the settings somewhere? > > Dave > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From monty at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 14 17:24:36 2010 From: monty at lindenlab.com (Monty Brandenberg) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 20:24:36 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] This cannot be right... In-Reply-To: References: <-3115043393630532389@unknownmsgid> <20100909223353.feeae980.sythos@gmail.com> <20100909231407.c3cccce3.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 14, 2010, at 19:37, Ponzu wrote: > i am trying to browse the code, looking for some where that perhaps an > http socket should be freed or closed, or not allocated, but is not... > > I have found this: > > indra/newview/lltexturefetch.cpp: void relese() { --mActiveCount; } > > > i don't understand it yet, but it doesn't pass the smell test. I agree with that ('smell test') but I don't think this is a smoking gun in this case. relese/release isn't part of the inheritance chain and isn't called. 'mActiveCount' isn't used in any decisions that I can find. This looks like a remnant of an idea that didn't play out as intended and could now use some clean up. Running 'lsof' should have give you an opportunity to identify the type of the extra open files (may need some help from netstat). Are they tcp or pipes? If tcp, what is the destination port? 80? 1204x? m From esbee at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 14 21:54:16 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 21:54:16 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Esbee's Office Hour (Viewer Product Backlog and Idea Discussion) Canceled Tomorrow Message-ID: Good evening all, Unfortunately, I need to cancel my office hour (normally held Wednesdays from 8-9am PT) because I'll be out of the office. We'll resume next week! Cheers, Esbee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100914/6c21e9d5/attachment.htm From tofu at lindenlab.com Wed Sep 15 10:53:43 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:53:43 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Bug report or feature request? In-Reply-To: <4C8FE96A.7010901@meadowlakearts.com> References: <4C8FE96A.7010901@meadowlakearts.com> Message-ID: <4C910827.907@lindenlab.com> That *sounds* like a bug, to me. Either way, please file an issue for it in pjira and someone will decide. :) Ta. Dave Booth wrote: > In pretty much all v2 viewers, including development, I've noticed a > weird behavior with group notices... When they arrive you get a little > notification in the bottom right of the screen and that persists for a > short time and then goes away exactly as one would expect... However if > you subsequently go to the icon in the bottom bar and pull up the > notification history then click on one of the notifications for a group > notice because you want to read it, the floater that comes up to display > the notice ALSO fades out after a few seconds, even when its focused and > you're half way through reading the notice. Intended behavior or not? > Either way I need to file a Jira, but if its intended behavior I'll be > making it a feature request to allow me to stop this rather than a bug > report. Seems to me that when a notice has been explicitly pulled up to > read it then it shouldnt go away until explicitly dismissed. > > Or am I just missing something in the settings somewhere? > > Dave > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 16:32:56 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:32:56 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] What is "Shining" Message-ID: i see this in Jira. What is it? lee From tofu at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 16 08:34:50 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:34:50 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] What is "Shining" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C92391A.20400@lindenlab.com> It's the name of one of LL's dev teams. Ponzu wrote: > i see this in Jira. What is it? > > lee > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Thu Sep 16 08:53:28 2010 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:53:28 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] What is "Shining" In-Reply-To: <4C92391A.20400@lindenlab.com> References: <4C92391A.20400@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201009161753.29133.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Donnerstag 16 September 2010 schrieb Tofu Linden: > It's the name of one of LL's dev teams. it's also the title of a movie and a book... very simplified it's the story of a guy who starts to hear voices and turns mad-axe-murderer on his family. I seriously hope the naming similarity is a coincidence. SCNR, LC From danielravennest at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 09:44:33 2010 From: danielravennest at gmail.com (Daniel) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:44:33 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> As a user I would like to see an improved cache in order to have a better Second Life experience. The types of improvements that would lead to a better experience include: * A higher cache size limit. This would let me save more data and speed up rez times, and also put less load on the server side, since it would not have to refresh discarded data as often. Modern hard drives are much much larger than the current 1 GB limit, and I should be able to allocate more storage to my Second Life data if it improves performance. * Ability to set certain locations as "home" or "favorites", and to never discard or preferentially keep those locations in cache. Places I know I will visit often should not be discarded just because I happen to visit several other locations in the course of a session. * More reliability in cache storage, leading to less often need to delete cache to fix a problem caused by cache corruption. A low level inventory verification (meaning it does not take a large percentage of viewer resources) to ensure it matches the asset database is an example, but technical implementation I will leave to programmers. The desired result is less frequent issues like apparent inventory loss, which upsets users and leads to support tickets. From kelly at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 16 09:58:13 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 09:58:13 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: Strictly speaking I think you have the stories and tasks reversed here. As a user I'd like to be able to use a greater portion of my available disk to improve the SL experience. * Task: Improve the cache system to allow larger caches As a user I'd like the places I visit most often, like my 'home' and favorites, to load more quickly * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my home (at least not for a while) * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my 'favorites' places (at least not for a while) As a user I'd like to never have to clear the cache to fix a bug * Task: Implement a quick and efficient inventory verification to find inventory cache discrepancies. * Task: (Are there other common bugs that require a cache clear to fix?) Improving the cache system is a task (actually multiple tasks) used to accomplish the three experience stories you have. Stories should generally be about the end experience, not the underlying system or how the experiences will be fixed. Yes, that is a rough guide, especially for many stories where the actor is 'a developer', but it helps still. :) That said these are great ideas, and should definitely be on a backlog somewhere if they aren't. I know we have discussed all of them at one point or another. - Kelly On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Daniel wrote: > As a user I would like to see an improved cache in order to have a > better Second Life experience. The types > of improvements that would lead to a better experience include: > > * A higher cache size limit. This would let me save more data and speed > up rez times, and also put less > load on the server side, since it would not have to refresh discarded > data as often. Modern hard drives > are much much larger than the current 1 GB limit, and I should be able > to allocate more storage to > my Second Life data if it improves performance. > > * Ability to set certain locations as "home" or "favorites", and to > never discard or preferentially keep those > locations in cache. Places I know I will visit often should not be > discarded just because I happen to visit > several other locations in the course of a session. > > * More reliability in cache storage, leading to less often need to > delete cache to fix a problem caused by > cache corruption. A low level inventory verification (meaning it does > not take a large percentage of viewer > resources) to ensure it matches the asset database is an example, but > technical implementation I will leave > to programmers. The desired result is less frequent issues like > apparent inventory loss, which upsets users > and leads to support tickets. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/767acd84/attachment.htm From joel.foner at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 10:17:30 2010 From: joel.foner at gmail.com (Joel Foner) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:17:30 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: I propose a slight modification... As a user, I want to be able to choose some number of places that load more quickly, and am willing to trade some disk space to make this happen. This list of places may, or may not, be based on visit frequency, favorites or personal selection. (I may want a particular place to load quickly even though I do not visit it frequently or do not want to list it in favorites.) Joel On Sep 16, 2010 12:58 PM, "Kelly Linden" wrote: Strictly speaking I think you have the stories and tasks reversed here. As a user I'd like to be able to use a greater portion of my available disk to improve the SL experience. * Task: Improve the cache system to allow larger caches As a user I'd like the places I visit most often, like my 'home' and favorites, to load more quickly * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my home (at least not for a while) * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my 'favorites' places (at least not for a while) As a user I'd like to never have to clear the cache to fix a bug * Task: Implement a quick and efficient inventory verification to find inventory cache discrepancies. * Task: (Are there other common bugs that require a cache clear to fix?) Improving the cache system is a task (actually multiple tasks) used to accomplish the three experience stories you have. Stories should generally be about the end experience, not the underlying system or how the experiences will be fixed. Yes, that is a rough guide, especially for many stories where the actor is 'a developer', but it helps still. :) That said these are great ideas, and should definitely be on a backlog somewhere if they aren't. I know we have discussed all of them at one point or another. - Kelly On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Daniel wrote: > > As a user I would ... _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/2444bb18/attachment.htm From javajoint at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 10:17:39 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:17:39 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Daniel wrote: > As a user I would like to see an improved cache in order to have a > better Second Life experience. The types > of improvements that would lead to a better experience include: > > * A higher cache size limit. This would let me save more data and speed > up rez times, and also put less > load on the server side, since it would not have to refresh discarded > data as often. Modern hard drives > are much much larger than the current 1 GB limit, and I should be able > to allocate more storage to > my Second Life data if it improves performance. > > Greetings Daniel from Daniel -- It would be good to know from the Lindens as to the negative effect from having a cache size that is too big. I know that there are some diminishing returns with web browsers - they can get to the point where, if the cache is too big, they spend more time tracking down the item than it would take to just go fetch a fresh one. One of the crucial things would be: what is in main memory, relating to on-disk cache? A side effect would be.. the app size in memory gets to the point where the OS starts swapping other things out.... It's all a balance ;) Would be good to see the Linden guidance on this. Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/5a30e4f5/attachment-0001.htm From monty at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 16 10:31:02 2010 From: monty at lindenlab.com (Monty Brandenberg) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:31:02 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> On 9/16/2010 1:17 PM, Daniel Smith wrote: > Greetings Daniel from Daniel -- > > It would be good to know from the Lindens as to the negative effect from > having a cache size that is too big. A few quick points: - There isn't a single cache. There are actually multiple persistent and somewhat independent systems in the viewer. - The cache controlled by the UI is known to be unsafe beyond 31 bits at the present. So, 2GB and no more. Whether *that's* a good idea on any particular host is an open question. This is why Kelly's and Joel's suggestions are spot on: user stories define the desired result then the engineers design the system to achieve those results and create the tasks that make that happen. m -- Monty Brandenberg 617.401.2384 monty at lindenlab.com From bunny at bunnynet.org Thu Sep 16 11:22:31 2010 From: bunny at bunnynet.org (Bunny Halberd) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:22:31 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Stability in Recent Dev Builds (and crash dumps?) Message-ID: Good Afternoon! I have gotten into the habit of grabbing whatever is the most recent dev build each day when I get ready to log in and using it for as long as I can. (I like finding bugs!) There's been a recent stability issue that's been introduced in the last two weeks or so (maybe longer, I'm not sure). It seems to be in the texture pipeline, or in the texture loading pipeline. Every now and then (but it happened to me twice last night before I gave up and went back to 2.1.1) when someone new comes in SL crashes and goes directly to the crash logger. It's not just me - I have a friend that also grabs the latest dev build and we both tend to crash at exactly the same time when this happens. It's like clockwork, we'll both poof at the same time. I keep submitting crash dumps via the crash logger in hopes to help track this down, but I haven't seen any recent merges or discussion here of stability issues of this type. So, I have two questions - 1.) are crash dumps working correctly on the dev builds, and how can someone that doesn't have the desire to compile her own viewer (but doesn't mind help testing and digging into things) track something like this down? - Bunny From tillie at xp2.de Thu Sep 16 12:52:07 2010 From: tillie at xp2.de (Tillie Ariantho) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 21:52:07 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Stability in Recent Dev Builds (and crash dumps?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> On 16.09.2010 20:22, Bunny Halberd wrote: > So, I have two questions - 1.) are crash dumps working correctly on > the dev builds, I crash 2 or 3 times a day too with the dev builds and only on rare occasions a .dmp file with >0 bytes is written. The crashes seem to be somewhat random, apparently more often when people are around or arrive. I got one crash though that produced a dump file. Log looks like this: 2010-09-02T21:46:50Z INFO: LLVOAvatar::processAvatarAppearance: AvatarAppearance msg received without any parameters, object: fd56cc9b-0dcd-4fdb-8ca7-0e186524d064 2010-09-02T21:46:50Z INFO: LLVOAvatar::processAvatarAppearance: That's okay, we already have a non-default shape for object: fd56cc9b-0dcd-4fdb-8ca7-0e186524d064 2010-09-02T21:46:52Z WARNING: LLSysWellWindow::removeItemByID: Unable to remove notification from the list, ID: 5e2c7343-57ce-b9e8-8699-d7cc9b1b10ad 2010-09-02T21:46:52Z INFO: LLFloater::closeFloater: Closing floater toast 2010-09-02T21:46:53Z INFO: LLAppViewer::idle: Kills on unknown objects: 3 2010-09-02T21:46:55Z INFO: LLAssetStorage::getAssetData: ASSET_TRACE requesting 276e8dce-3a46-edc5-fe2e-e62b96197131 type animatn 2010-09-02T21:46:55Z INFO: LLAssetStorage::getAssetData: ASSET_TRACE asset 276e8dce-3a46-edc5-fe2e-e62b96197131 found in VFS 2010-09-02T21:46:58Z INFO: display_stats: FPS: 49.90 2010-09-02T21:47:01Z INFO: LLAssetStorage::getAssetData: ASSET_TRACE requesting 1d1bbc86-4c42-9fcb-5514-0c55da61fcc4 type animatn 2010-09-02T21:47:01Z INFO: LLAssetStorage::getAssetData: ASSET_TRACE asset 1d1bbc86-4c42-9fcb-5514-0c55da61fcc4 found in VFS 2010-09-02T21:47:07Z INFO: display_stats: FPS: 49.10 2010-09-02T21:47:12Z INFO: display_stats: MEMORY: 1192 MB 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: windows_post_minidump_callback: generated minidump: ba07ec5c-aebc-433a-a507-716f8c0faa21.dmp 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: windows_post_minidump_callback: Entering Windows Exception Handler... 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLAppViewer::handleViewerCrash: Handle viewer crash entry. 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLAppViewer::handleViewerCrash: Last render pool type: 14 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: ************* PRINT OUT LL CALL STACKS ************* 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: LLPipeline::postSort line: 2774 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: LLPipeline::postSort line: 2744 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: LLPipeline::postSort line: 2696 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: LLPipeline::postSort line: 2594 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: LLPipeline::postSort line: 2574 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: LLPipeline::postSort line: 2563 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: *************** END OF LL CALL STACKS *************** If someone wants the dump file (Snowstorm build #208921 for that crash)... I think it didnt send out the crash data. The crashes with 0 byte dumps dont do send anything ever. Tillie From missannotoole at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 13:04:31 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> Message-ID: <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> What is this "Product Engine" I see references to (made apparently by team shining) in the Scrum summaries? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/3405fa46/attachment.htm From yoz at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 16 13:07:14 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:07:14 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 16 September 2010 13:04, Ann Otoole wrote: > What is this "Product Engine" I see references to (made apparently by team > shining) in the Scrum summaries? > They're an external contract team doing engineering and QA work for us. -- Yoz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/f400be15/attachment.htm From missannotoole at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 13:25:53 2010 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> But the question is what is the "Product Engine"? (I've seen the pics of those kids over there doing the work. They look like they like to have fun.) ________________________________ From: Yoz Grahame To: Ann Otoole Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 4:07:14 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? On 16 September 2010 13:04, Ann Otoole wrote: What is this "Product Engine" I see references to (made apparently by team shining) in the Scrum summaries? They're an external contract team doing engineering and QA work for us. -- Yoz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/09e175d4/attachment.htm From I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de Thu Sep 16 13:32:34 2010 From: I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de (Zai Lynch) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:32:34 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't know if I understand the question... So I'm not sure if http://www.productengine.com/ answers it. Does it? On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Ann Otoole wrote: > But the question is what is the "Product Engine"? (I've seen the pics of > those kids over there doing the work. They look like they like to have fun.) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Yoz Grahame > *To:* Ann Otoole > *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > *Sent:* Thu, September 16, 2010 4:07:14 PM > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? > > > On 16 September 2010 13:04, Ann Otoole wrote: > >> What is this "Product Engine" I see references to (made apparently by team >> shining) in the Scrum summaries? >> > > They're an external contract team doing engineering and QA work for us. > > -- Yoz > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- @ZaiLynch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/b1aa843f/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 14:51:26 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:51:26 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Landmarks on login? Message-ID: viewer 2, Why ohh why on log in is it grabbing all landmarks then getting region handles for them? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/46c5a738/attachment.htm From q at lindenlab.com Thu Sep 16 15:06:12 2010 From: q at lindenlab.com (Kent Quirk (Q Linden)) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:06:12 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Landmarks on login? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B99D9B-DC90-438E-92B9-E7591F503DBF@lindenlab.com> Have you got a JIRA, or better yet, a pointer to the code in question? Sounds like it's worth investigating. Q On Sep 16, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Brandon Husbands wrote: > > viewer 2, Why ohh why on log in is it grabbing all landmarks then getting region handles for them? > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 15:11:30 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:11:30 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Landmarks on login? In-Reply-To: <43B99D9B-DC90-438E-92B9-E7591F503DBF@lindenlab.com> References: <43B99D9B-DC90-438E-92B9-E7591F503DBF@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Requesting region handles etc... llLandmark.cpp line 164 void LLLandmark::registerCallbacks(LLMessageSystem* msg) { msg->setHandlerFunc("RegionIDAndHandleReply", &processRegionIDAndHandle); } called from llstartup.cpp line 1649 LLLandmark::registerCallbacks(msg); Call Stack When it starts fetching secondlife-bin.exe!LLAssetStorage::getAssetData(LLUUID uuid={...}, LLAssetType::EType type=AT_LANDMARK, void (LLVFS *, const LLUUID &, LLAssetType::EType, void *, int, int)* callback=0x004341ee, void * user_data=0x00000000, int is_priority=0x00000000) Line 472 + 0xb2 bytes C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLLandmarkList::getAsset(const LLUUID & asset_uuid={...}, boost::function cb={...}) Line 92 C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLFirstAgentParcelLandmark::operator()(LLInventoryCategory * cat=0x00000000, LLInventoryItem * item=0x134fc288) Line 148 + 0x3e bytes C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLInventoryModel::collectDescendentsIf(const LLUUID & id={...}, LLDynamicArray,32> & cats={...}, LLDynamicArray,32> & items={...}, int include_trash=0x00000000, LLInventoryCollectFunctor & add={...}, int follow_folder_links=0x00000000) Line 532 + 0x13 bytes C++ secondlife-bin.exe!fetch_landmarks(LLDynamicArray,32> & cats={...}, LLDynamicArray,32> & items={...}, LLInventoryCollectFunctor & add={...}) Line 179 C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLLandmarkActions::hasParcelLandmark() Line 203 + 0x11 bytes C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLLocationInputCtrl::updateAddLandmarkButton() Line 989 + 0x5 bytes C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLRemoveLandmarkObserver::changed(unsigned int mask=0xffffffff) Line 145 C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLInventoryModel::notifyObservers(std::basic_string,std::allocator > service_name="") Line 1088 C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLInventoryModel::buildParentChildMap() Line 1969 C++ secondlife-bin.exe!idle_startup() Line 1639 C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLAppViewer::idle() Line 3549 + 0x5 bytes C++ secondlife-bin.exe!LLAppViewer::mainLoop() Line 1067 C++ secondlife-bin.exe!WinMain(HINSTANCE__ * hInstance=0x00400000, HINSTANCE__ * hPrevInstance=0x00000000, char * lpCmdLine=0x001d7734, int nCmdShow=0x00000001) Line 178 C++ secondlife-bin.exe!__tmainCRTStartup() Line 589 + 0x1d bytes C On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > Have you got a JIRA, or better yet, a pointer to the code in question? > Sounds like it's worth investigating. > > Q > > On Sep 16, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Brandon Husbands wrote: > > > > > viewer 2, Why ohh why on log in is it grabbing all landmarks then getting > region handles for them? > > > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/abc2978c/attachment-0001.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 15:12:35 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:12:35 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Landmarks on login? In-Reply-To: <43B99D9B-DC90-438E-92B9-E7591F503DBF@lindenlab.com> References: <43B99D9B-DC90-438E-92B9-E7591F503DBF@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: heres the magic landmark.cpp line 170 starts void LLLandmark::requestRegionHandle( LLMessageSystem* msg, const LLHost& upstream_host, const LLUUID& region_id, region_handle_callback_t callback) { if(region_id.isNull()) { // don't bother with checking - it's 0. lldebugs << "requestRegionHandle: null" << llendl; if(callback) { const U64 U64_ZERO = 0; callback(region_id, U64_ZERO); } } else { if(region_id == mLocalRegion.first) { lldebugs << "requestRegionHandle: local" << llendl; if(callback) { callback(region_id, mLocalRegion.second); } } else { region_map_t::iterator it = mRegions.find(region_id); if(it == mRegions.end()) { lldebugs << "requestRegionHandle: upstream" << llendl; if(callback) { region_callback_map_t::value_type vt(region_id, callback); sRegionCallbackMap.insert(vt); } lldebugs << "Landmark requesting information about: " << region_id << llendl; msg->newMessage("RegionHandleRequest"); msg->nextBlock("RequestBlock"); msg->addUUID("RegionID", region_id); msg->sendReliable(upstream_host); } else if(callback) { // we have the answer locally - just call the callack. lldebugs << "requestRegionHandle: ready" << llendl; callback(region_id, (*it).second.mRegionHandle); } } } // As good a place as any to expire old entries. expireOldEntries(); } On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > Have you got a JIRA, or better yet, a pointer to the code in question? > Sounds like it's worth investigating. > > Q > > On Sep 16, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Brandon Husbands wrote: > > > > > viewer 2, Why ohh why on log in is it grabbing all landmarks then getting > region handles for them? > > > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/0920d0f2/attachment.htm From dmahalko at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:36:50 2010 From: dmahalko at gmail.com (Dale Mahalko) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:36:50 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: I just don't have the motivation for it myself, but I would really like it if a 3rd party developer would gut out LL's texture cache and eliminate the VFS, and replace them with a simple disk cache that writes all assets in raw format, with files named by UUID on disk. * Decode all JPEG2000's once, to all levels of mipmap scale, and write the raw RGB mipmaps to disk as individual files (UUID+mipscale.bmp), discarding the source JP2's. * Decode all OGGs to WAV once, and write the raw WAV to disk, discarding the OGGs. * Oh, and don't ever delete any assets until your dedicated 2 terabyte cache drive is 99.99% full. * Let the local operating system deal with the file caching. If you have 4+ gig of system memory, let the OS manage it for caching frequently accessed world data. This cache would much simpler than the layered mess of caches currently used, and it would give a speed boost over the constant JP2 to RGB mipmap decoding and discarding that is in place now. Decode once and don't ever do it again. , But I know it is just a dream. LL will never let it happen since it will lay bare the data contents of every prim, texture, and object in the virtual world, rather than obfuscating asset storage within the current VFS / JP2 method. This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. - Dale Mahalko / Scalar Tardis From jbhancroft at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:45:53 2010 From: jbhancroft at gmail.com (JB Hancroft) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:45:53 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: > This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. Because... it would be non-compliant in some way? On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > I just don't have the motivation for it myself, but I would really > like it if a 3rd party developer would gut out LL's texture cache and > eliminate the VFS, and replace them with a simple disk cache that > writes all assets in raw format, with files named by UUID on disk. > > * Decode all JPEG2000's once, to all levels of mipmap scale, and write > the raw RGB mipmaps to disk as individual files (UUID+mipscale.bmp), > discarding the source JP2's. > > * Decode all OGGs to WAV once, and write the raw WAV to disk, > discarding the OGGs. > > * Oh, and don't ever delete any assets until your dedicated 2 terabyte > cache drive is 99.99% full. > > * Let the local operating system deal with the file caching. If you > have 4+ gig of system memory, let the OS manage it for caching > frequently accessed world data. > > This cache would much simpler than the layered mess of caches > currently used, and it would give a speed boost over the constant JP2 > to RGB mipmap decoding and discarding that is in place now. Decode > once and don't ever do it again. > > , > > But I know it is just a dream. LL will never let it happen since it > will lay bare the data contents of every prim, texture, and object in > the virtual world, rather than obfuscating asset storage within the > current VFS / JP2 method. > > This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. > > - Dale Mahalko / Scalar Tardis > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/84d0d4ae/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:47:39 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:47:39 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possible Voice morphing Caused random Crash. VWR-23066 Message-ID: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23066 Was odd just sitting here reading mail in debug and boom crash! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/20ada5bb/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 18:12:08 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:12:08 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: You could technically watermark the images and have the display code just remove that mark. If it cant find the mark its considered corrupt. On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 6:45 PM, JB Hancroft wrote: > > This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. > > Because... it would be non-compliant in some way? > > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > >> I just don't have the motivation for it myself, but I would really >> like it if a 3rd party developer would gut out LL's texture cache and >> eliminate the VFS, and replace them with a simple disk cache that >> writes all assets in raw format, with files named by UUID on disk. >> >> * Decode all JPEG2000's once, to all levels of mipmap scale, and write >> the raw RGB mipmaps to disk as individual files (UUID+mipscale.bmp), >> discarding the source JP2's. >> >> * Decode all OGGs to WAV once, and write the raw WAV to disk, >> discarding the OGGs. >> >> * Oh, and don't ever delete any assets until your dedicated 2 terabyte >> cache drive is 99.99% full. >> >> * Let the local operating system deal with the file caching. If you >> have 4+ gig of system memory, let the OS manage it for caching >> frequently accessed world data. >> >> This cache would much simpler than the layered mess of caches >> currently used, and it would give a speed boost over the constant JP2 >> to RGB mipmap decoding and discarding that is in place now. Decode >> once and don't ever do it again. >> >> , >> >> But I know it is just a dream. LL will never let it happen since it >> will lay bare the data contents of every prim, texture, and object in >> the virtual world, rather than obfuscating asset storage within the >> current VFS / JP2 method. >> >> This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. >> >> - Dale Mahalko / Scalar Tardis >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/77bfdd5b/attachment-0001.htm From akanevsky at productengine.com Thu Sep 16 22:32:09 2010 From: akanevsky at productengine.com (Anya Kanevsky) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:32:09 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ann, I'm the SF-based Project Manager for Product Engine. We're a contractor working with LL for almost 2 years now, mostly doing Viewer and QA work. Currently, our development team is a part of Snowstorm. I'll be happy to answer (almost) any questions you might have about us... Best, Anya P.S. Not sure about which pictures of what kids you're referring to ... 2010/9/16 Ann Otoole > But the question is what is the "Product Engine"? (I've seen the pics of > those kids over there doing the work. They look like they like to have fun.) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Yoz Grahame > *To:* Ann Otoole > *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > *Sent:* Thu, September 16, 2010 4:07:14 PM > *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? > > > On 16 September 2010 13:04, Ann Otoole wrote: > >> What is this "Product Engine" I see references to (made apparently by team >> shining) in the Scrum summaries? >> > > They're an external contract team doing engineering and QA work for us. > > -- Yoz > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100916/4257992b/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 22:39:26 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 00:39:26 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Who made the choice on the side bar.... lol, You do know mozilla has a sidebar and book mark side bars etc... None uses that also. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:32 AM, Anya Kanevsky wrote: > Ann, > I'm the SF-based Project Manager for Product Engine. We're a contractor > working with LL for almost 2 years now, mostly doing Viewer and QA work. > Currently, our development team is a part of Snowstorm. I'll be happy to > answer (almost) any questions you might have about us... > > Best, > > Anya > > P.S. Not sure about which pictures of what kids you're referring to ... > > 2010/9/16 Ann Otoole > >> But the question is what is the "Product Engine"? (I've seen the pics of >> those kids over there doing the work. They look like they like to have fun.) >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Yoz Grahame >> *To:* Ann Otoole >> *Cc:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> *Sent:* Thu, September 16, 2010 4:07:14 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? >> >> >> On 16 September 2010 13:04, Ann Otoole wrote: >> >>> What is this "Product Engine" I see references to (made apparently by >>> team shining) in the Scrum summaries? >>> >> >> They're an external contract team doing engineering and QA work for us. >> >> -- Yoz >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/bb175bb6/attachment.htm From robertltux at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 04:08:10 2010 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 07:08:10 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] a Thought on fixing mega prims Message-ID: Im just dartboarding this but would it be possible to have some sort of secondary center marker on the ends of prims to enable showing that a prim encroaches on a neighboring parcel?? (primary center would be the geometric center of the object and the secondary centers would be the ends of the X Y and Z axis or the centers of each face of the bounding box) i would think that raising the limit to 63|4 meters would be good enough. -- Robert L Martin and yes this still does not cover a large prim covering 3 or more small parcels From dmahalko at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 06:53:05 2010 From: dmahalko at gmail.com (Dale Mahalko) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:53:05 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] a Thought on fixing mega prims In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you want to see where any type of prim (not just mega) encroaches on neighboring parcels, it could be done by having a 2D "virtual shadow" under the prim while the object is being moved/rotated, as if cast by a light source infinitely high above the object. Where the virtual shadow crosses into neighboring / nongroup parcels, that portion of the shadow could be highlighted to let the person see where they are encroaching, and they can interactively move/rotate the object to minimize the highlighted overlap. For objects in the sky, the virtual shadow could be cast onto a translucent 2D representation of the parcel borders below, and which disappears when moving/rotating stops. - Dale Mahalko / Scalar Tardis On 9/17/10, Robert Martin wrote: > Im just dartboarding this but would it be possible to have some sort > of secondary center marker on the ends of prims to enable showing that > a prim encroaches on a neighboring parcel?? > (primary center would be the geometric center of the object and the > secondary centers would be the ends of the X Y and Z axis or the > centers of each face of the bounding box) > > i would think that raising the limit to 63|4 meters would be good enough. > > -- > Robert L Martin > and yes this still does not cover a large prim covering 3 or more small > parcels > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From monty at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 17 07:06:17 2010 From: monty at lindenlab.com (Monty Brandenberg) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:06:17 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C9375D9.7050701@lindenlab.com> On 9/16/2010 7:36 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > This cache would much simpler than the layered mess of caches > currently used, and it would give a speed boost over the constant JP2 > to RGB mipmap decoding and discarding that is in place now. Decode > once and don't ever do it again. Speaking for myself, I'm all for fewer and simpler caches along with instrumentation to back up the performance story. (We got into this situation by having too much of the former and not enough of the latter.) > But I know it is just a dream. LL will never let it happen since it > will lay bare the data contents of every prim, texture, and object in > the virtual world, rather than obfuscating asset storage within the > current VFS / JP2 method. I don't think we have any illusions about content exposure but whether there would be an issue with any particular approach is beyond my pay scale. Worth asking the leads *before* spending time on development. -- Monty Brandenberg 617.401.2384 monty at lindenlab.com From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 07:10:38 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:10:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: General concensus and *working code*. Go for it. On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:12 PM, Brandon Husbands wrote: > You could technically watermark the images and have the display code just > remove that mark. > If it cant find the mark its considered corrupt. > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 6:45 PM, JB Hancroft wrote: >> >> >? This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. >> >> Because... it would be non-compliant in some way? >> >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: >>> >>> I just don't have the motivation for it myself, but I would really >>> like it if a 3rd party developer would gut out LL's texture cache and >>> eliminate the VFS, and replace them with a simple disk cache that >>> writes all assets in raw format, with files named by UUID on disk. >>> >>> * Decode all JPEG2000's once, to all levels of mipmap scale, and write >>> the raw RGB mipmaps to disk as individual files (UUID+mipscale.bmp), >>> discarding the source JP2's. >>> >>> * Decode all OGGs to WAV once, and write the raw WAV to disk, >>> discarding the OGGs. >>> >>> * Oh, and don't ever delete any assets until your dedicated 2 terabyte >>> cache drive is 99.99% full. >>> >>> * Let the local operating system deal with the file caching. If you >>> have 4+ gig of system memory, let the OS manage it for caching >>> frequently accessed world data. >>> >>> This cache would much simpler than the layered mess of caches >>> currently used, and it would give a speed boost over the constant JP2 >>> to RGB mipmap decoding and discarding that is in place now. Decode >>> once and don't ever do it again. >>> >>> , >>> >>> But I know it is just a dream. LL will never let it happen since it >>> will lay bare the data contents of every prim, texture, and object in >>> the virtual world, rather than obfuscating asset storage within the >>> current VFS / JP2 method. >>> >>> This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. >>> >>> - Dale Mahalko / Scalar Tardis >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may > be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 07:12:45 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:12:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Brandon. Thank you for the pointless insult. regards, lee On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Brandon Husbands wrote: > Who made the choice on the side bar.... lol, You do know mozilla has a > sidebar and book mark? side bars etc... None uses that also. > >> From lillie.yiyuan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 08:34:44 2010 From: lillie.yiyuan at gmail.com (Lillian Yiyuan) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:34:44 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Yes gutting the cache helps a lot. So does dumping a copy of the cache into a folder with the name of a sim, and on change to a non-contingous sim swapping where the cache points to so that suddenly the cache from the last visit to that sim is used. No, it's not compliant, because the most efficient case exposes all content. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Ponzu wrote: > General concensus and *working code*. > > Go for it. > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:12 PM, Brandon Husbands wrote: >> You could technically watermark the images and have the display code just >> remove that mark. >> If it cant find the mark its considered corrupt. >> >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 6:45 PM, JB Hancroft wrote: >>> >>> >? This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. >>> >>> Because... it would be non-compliant in some way? >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: >>>> >>>> I just don't have the motivation for it myself, but I would really >>>> like it if a 3rd party developer would gut out LL's texture cache and >>>> eliminate the VFS, and replace them with a simple disk cache that >>>> writes all assets in raw format, with files named by UUID on disk. >>>> >>>> * Decode all JPEG2000's once, to all levels of mipmap scale, and write >>>> the raw RGB mipmaps to disk as individual files (UUID+mipscale.bmp), >>>> discarding the source JP2's. >>>> >>>> * Decode all OGGs to WAV once, and write the raw WAV to disk, >>>> discarding the OGGs. >>>> >>>> * Oh, and don't ever delete any assets until your dedicated 2 terabyte >>>> cache drive is 99.99% full. >>>> >>>> * Let the local operating system deal with the file caching. If you >>>> have 4+ gig of system memory, let the OS manage it for caching >>>> frequently accessed world data. >>>> >>>> This cache would much simpler than the layered mess of caches >>>> currently used, and it would give a speed boost over the constant JP2 >>>> to RGB mipmap decoding and discarding that is in place now. Decode >>>> once and don't ever do it again. >>>> >>>> , >>>> >>>> But I know it is just a dream. LL will never let it happen since it >>>> will lay bare the data contents of every prim, texture, and object in >>>> the virtual world, rather than obfuscating asset storage within the >>>> current VFS / JP2 method. >>>> >>>> This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. >>>> >>>> - Dale Mahalko / Scalar Tardis >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>> privileges >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >> >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may >> be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not >> Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From marc at inworlddesigns.com Fri Sep 17 08:42:07 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:42:07 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think that maybe "places" should have scores of how often they are visted to determine how long the cache of that place is stored. So since every login you start at home it would have a high score therefore the cache would be stored for a longer period of time. Same goes for places you visit often. This would remove any interaction needed by the user because the system would pretty much auto detect what places you would have as a favorite... On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > Strictly speaking I think you have the stories and tasks reversed here. > > As a user I'd like to be able to use a greater portion of my available disk > to improve the SL experience. > * Task: Improve the cache system to allow larger caches > > As a user I'd like the places I visit most often, like my 'home' and > favorites, to load more quickly > * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my home (at least > not for a while) > * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my 'favorites' > places (at least not for a while) > > As a user I'd like to never have to clear the cache to fix a bug > * Task: Implement a quick and efficient inventory verification to find > inventory cache discrepancies. > * Task: (Are there other common bugs that require a cache clear to fix?) > > Improving the cache system is a task (actually multiple tasks) used to > accomplish the three experience stories you have. Stories should generally > be about the end experience, not the underlying system or how the > experiences will be fixed. Yes, that is a rough guide, especially for many > stories where the actor is 'a developer', but it helps still. :) > > That said these are great ideas, and should definitely be on a backlog > somewhere if they aren't. I know we have discussed all of them at one point > or another. > > ?- Kelly > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Daniel wrote: >> >> ?As a user I would like to see an improved cache in order to have a >> better Second Life experience. ?The types >> of improvements that would lead to a better experience include: >> >> * A higher cache size limit. ?This would let me save more data and speed >> up rez times, and also put less >> load on the server side, since it would not have to refresh discarded >> data as often. ?Modern hard drives >> are much much larger than the current 1 GB limit, and I should be able >> to allocate more storage to >> my Second Life data if it improves performance. >> >> * Ability to set certain locations as "home" or "favorites", and to >> never discard or preferentially keep those >> locations in cache. ?Places I know I will visit often should not be >> discarded just because I happen to visit >> several other locations in the course of a session. >> >> * More reliability in cache storage, leading to less often need to >> delete cache to fix a problem caused by >> cache corruption. ?A low level inventory verification (meaning it does >> not take a large percentage of viewer >> resources) to ensure it matches the asset database is an example, but >> technical implementation I will leave >> to programmers. ?The desired result is less frequent issues like >> apparent inventory loss, which upsets users >> and leads to support tickets. >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 17 09:16:45 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:16:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers Message-ID: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> We have lots of community members who are ready and willing to try out the latest and greatest experiments and fixes from developers, and plenty of developers who have things that need testing (especially in circumstances and on platforms that the develop might not have). The trick is getting the viewers from the latter to the former... I've added a section at the top of the Downloading test builds wiki page to help with this, and created a wiki template to simplify adding entries there. Please take advantage of this for publishing viewers you'd like someone to test, and for finding the latest and greatest toys to play with. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/71b30b65/attachment.htm From kf6kjg at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 09:09:55 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:09:55 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] a Thought on fixing mega prims In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Or the vertex glow color changes for that part of the prim/object that is over the other parcel... Just throwing out another idea. Ricky Cron Stardust On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > If you want to see where any type of prim (not just mega) encroaches > on neighboring parcels, it could be done by having a 2D "virtual > shadow" under the prim while the object is being moved/rotated, as if > cast by a light source infinitely high above the object. > > Where the virtual shadow crosses into neighboring / nongroup parcels, > that portion of the shadow could be highlighted to let the person see > where they are encroaching, and they can interactively move/rotate the > object to minimize the highlighted overlap. > > For objects in the sky, the virtual shadow could be cast onto a > translucent 2D representation of the parcel borders below, and which > disappears when moving/rotating stops. > > - Dale Mahalko / Scalar Tardis > > > > On 9/17/10, Robert Martin wrote: >> Im just dartboarding this but would it be possible to have some sort >> of secondary center marker on the ends of prims to enable showing that >> a prim encroaches on a neighboring parcel?? >> (primary center would be the geometric center of the object and the >> secondary centers would be the ends of the X Y and Z axis or the >> centers of each face of the bounding box) >> >> i would think that raising the limit to 63|4 meters would be good enough. >> >> -- >> Robert L Martin >> and yes this still does not cover a large prim covering 3 or more small >> parcels >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From tom at streamsense.net Fri Sep 17 09:20:15 2010 From: tom at streamsense.net (Tom Grimshaw) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:20:15 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers In-Reply-To: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> References: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C93953F.3080305@streamsense.net> On 17/09/2010 17:16, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > We have lots of community members who are ready and willing to try out > the latest and greatest experiments and fixes from developers, Are viewers with experimental OpenSim-targeted features welcome there? ~T -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/7569e6b9/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 17 09:25:15 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:25:15 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers In-Reply-To: <4C93953F.3080305@streamsense.net> References: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> <4C93953F.3080305@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <4C93966B.6050804@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-17 12:20, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > On 17/09/2010 17:16, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> We have lots of community members who are ready and willing to try >> out the latest and greatest experiments and fixes from developers, > Are viewers with experimental OpenSim-targeted features welcome there? I don't mind, as long as they are Second Life compatible, and TPV compliant when connected to Second Life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/4d862453/attachment.htm From zha.ewry at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 09:30:13 2010 From: zha.ewry at gmail.com (Zha Ewry) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:30:13 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers In-Reply-To: <4C93966B.6050804@lindenlab.com> References: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> <4C93953F.3080305@streamsense.net> <4C93966B.6050804@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Good answer, Oz ;-) On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-09-17 12:20, Tom Grimshaw wrote: > > On 17/09/2010 17:16, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > We have lots of community members who are ready and willing to try out the > latest and greatest experiments and fixes from developers, > > Are viewers with experimental OpenSim-targeted features welcome there? > > > I don't mind, as long as they are Second Life compatible, and TPV compliant > when connected to Second Life. > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/49474c4d/attachment-0001.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 09:56:53 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:56:53 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: But some users want to be able to override this. I want a certain location to always load fast, even if I rarely visit it. User story: I want to mark certain locations as "Fast Loading" even if I do not visit them very often. This should override the automatic behavior of the system. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Marc Adored wrote: > I think that maybe "places" should have scores of how often they are > visted to determine how long the cache of that place is stored. So > since every login you start at home it would have a high score > therefore the cache would be stored for a longer period of time. Same > goes for places you visit often. This would remove any interaction > needed by the user because the system would pretty much auto detect > what places you would have as a favorite... > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: >> Strictly speaking I think you have the stories and tasks reversed here. >> >> As a user I'd like to be able to use a greater portion of my available disk >> to improve the SL experience. >> * Task: Improve the cache system to allow larger caches >> >> As a user I'd like the places I visit most often, like my 'home' and >> favorites, to load more quickly >> * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my home (at least >> not for a while) >> * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my 'favorites' >> places (at least not for a while) >> >> As a user I'd like to never have to clear the cache to fix a bug >> * Task: Implement a quick and efficient inventory verification to find >> inventory cache discrepancies. >> * Task: (Are there other common bugs that require a cache clear to fix?) >> >> Improving the cache system is a task (actually multiple tasks) used to >> accomplish the three experience stories you have. Stories should generally >> be about the end experience, not the underlying system or how the >> experiences will be fixed. Yes, that is a rough guide, especially for many >> stories where the actor is 'a developer', but it helps still. :) >> >> That said these are great ideas, and should definitely be on a backlog >> somewhere if they aren't. I know we have discussed all of them at one point >> or another. >> >> ?- Kelly >> >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Daniel wrote: >>> >>> ?As a user I would like to see an improved cache in order to have a >>> better Second Life experience. ?The types >>> of improvements that would lead to a better experience include: >>> >>> * A higher cache size limit. ?This would let me save more data and speed >>> up rez times, and also put less >>> load on the server side, since it would not have to refresh discarded >>> data as often. ?Modern hard drives >>> are much much larger than the current 1 GB limit, and I should be able >>> to allocate more storage to >>> my Second Life data if it improves performance. >>> >>> * Ability to set certain locations as "home" or "favorites", and to >>> never discard or preferentially keep those >>> locations in cache. ?Places I know I will visit often should not be >>> discarded just because I happen to visit >>> several other locations in the course of a session. >>> >>> * More reliability in cache storage, leading to less often need to >>> delete cache to fix a problem caused by >>> cache corruption. ?A low level inventory verification (meaning it does >>> not take a large percentage of viewer >>> resources) to ensure it matches the asset database is an example, but >>> technical implementation I will leave >>> to programmers. ?The desired result is less frequent issues like >>> apparent inventory loss, which upsets users >>> and leads to support tickets. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 17 10:08:00 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:08:00 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C93A070.9030905@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-17 12:56, Ponzu wrote: > But some users want to be able to override this. I want a certain > location to always load fast, even if I rarely visit it. > > User story: I want to mark certain locations as "Fast Loading" even > if I do not visit them very often. This should override the automatic > behavior of the system. Even if the cache had such controls, note that if anything changes at the location while you're away (and the longer you have between visits, the more likely that is), then it won't load from cache anyway. From javajoint at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 10:17:27 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:17:27 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Ponzu wrote: > But some users want to be able to override this. I want a certain > location to always load fast, even if I rarely visit it. > > User story: I want to mark certain locations as "Fast Loading" even > if I do not visit them very often. This should override the automatic > behavior of the system. > > A passive means of ranking a cache would be: 1) did the user already have an LM here? 2) did an object just give a user an LM to this place? 3) did the user just proactively create an LM? These are 3 distinct cases. #1 and #3 imply that the user has an interest in coming back, and is likely to want an ongoing cache. #2 implies that a store / venue etc may have given the user an LM they didn't want. Another case is: if a user deletes an LM, it implies they may want to free up the cache for that location as well. Daniel > On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Marc Adored > wrote: > > I think that maybe "places" should have scores of how often they are > > visted to determine how long the cache of that place is stored. So > > since every login you start at home it would have a high score > > therefore the cache would be stored for a longer period of time. Same > > goes for places you visit often. This would remove any interaction > > needed by the user because the system would pretty much auto detect > > what places you would have as a favorite... > > > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Kelly Linden > wrote: > >> Strictly speaking I think you have the stories and tasks reversed here. > >> > >> As a user I'd like to be able to use a greater portion of my available > disk > >> to improve the SL experience. > >> * Task: Improve the cache system to allow larger caches > >> > >> As a user I'd like the places I visit most often, like my 'home' and > >> favorites, to load more quickly > >> * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my home (at > least > >> not for a while) > >> * Task: Improve the cache system to not discard data for my 'favorites' > >> places (at least not for a while) > >> > >> As a user I'd like to never have to clear the cache to fix a bug > >> * Task: Implement a quick and efficient inventory verification to find > >> inventory cache discrepancies. > >> * Task: (Are there other common bugs that require a cache clear to fix?) > >> > >> Improving the cache system is a task (actually multiple tasks) used to > >> accomplish the three experience stories you have. Stories should > generally > >> be about the end experience, not the underlying system or how the > >> experiences will be fixed. Yes, that is a rough guide, especially for > many > >> stories where the actor is 'a developer', but it helps still. :) > >> > >> That said these are great ideas, and should definitely be on a backlog > >> somewhere if they aren't. I know we have discussed all of them at one > point > >> or another. > >> > >> - Kelly > >> > >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Daniel > wrote: > >>> > >>> As a user I would like to see an improved cache in order to have a > >>> better Second Life experience. The types > >>> of improvements that would lead to a better experience include: > >>> > >>> * A higher cache size limit. This would let me save more data and > speed > >>> up rez times, and also put less > >>> load on the server side, since it would not have to refresh discarded > >>> data as often. Modern hard drives > >>> are much much larger than the current 1 GB limit, and I should be able > >>> to allocate more storage to > >>> my Second Life data if it improves performance. > >>> > >>> * Ability to set certain locations as "home" or "favorites", and to > >>> never discard or preferentially keep those > >>> locations in cache. Places I know I will visit often should not be > >>> discarded just because I happen to visit > >>> several other locations in the course of a session. > >>> > >>> * More reliability in cache storage, leading to less often need to > >>> delete cache to fix a problem caused by > >>> cache corruption. A low level inventory verification (meaning it does > >>> not take a large percentage of viewer > >>> resources) to ensure it matches the asset database is an example, but > >>> technical implementation I will leave > >>> to programmers. The desired result is less frequent issues like > >>> apparent inventory loss, which upsets users > >>> and leads to support tickets. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > >>> privileges > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > >> privileges > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/274d2e3b/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 10:36:49 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:36:49 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers In-Reply-To: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> References: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: When will Snowstorm post a Development Viewer Snapshot - TBD 8-) lee On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > I've added a section at the top of the Downloading test builds wiki page to > help with this, and created a wiki template to simplify adding entries > there. > > From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 10:49:51 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 12:49:51 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd party contractor. not a insult. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 9:12 AM, Ponzu wrote: > Brandon. Thank you for the pointless insult. > > regards, > lee > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Brandon Husbands > wrote: > > Who made the choice on the side bar.... lol, You do know mozilla has a > > sidebar and book mark side bars etc... None uses that also. > > > >> > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/ec088cf0/attachment-0001.htm From sythos at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 10:51:29 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:51:29 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:17:27 -0700 Daniel Smith wrote: > A passive means of ranking a cache would be: > > 1) did the user already have an LM here? > 2) did an object just give a user an LM to this place? > 3) did the user just proactively create an LM? > > These are 3 distinct cases. #1 and #3 imply that the user has an > interest in coming back, and is likely to want an ongoing cache. #2 > implies that a store / venue etc may have given the user an LM they > didn't want. Ram is a lot faster than cache-on-disk, caching on disk may cause more lag while you force a re-check everytime you see it, and each file should be CRCsummed and matched with one on asset (sims aren't static, textures from avatar too). There aren't tools to assure to an agent him cached texture is still one cached the teleport before... I think ins't so easy.... > Another case is: if a user deletes an LM, it implies they may want > to free up the cache for that location as well. don't understand, cache should store all textures for a whole sims just why i've bookmarkd a LM? O_o From open at autistici.org Fri Sep 17 10:53:28 2010 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:53:28 +0000 Subject: [opensource-dev] Looking for a PJIRA entry about build grid UI bug with deferred rendering enabled Message-ID: When Deferred Rendering is enabled and you're in building mode, the RGB arrows that you use to move prims don't "stop" at the prim surface anymore. Deferred Rendering OFF: http://m.friendfeed-media.com/948b6fc14d7ec63ec01a1f8f253a48869c6cbcd0 Deferred Rendering ON: http://m.friendfeed-media.com/206e6a7e4a14518e27f084d30c9cec0d58873520 If I recall correctly, a PJIRA entry already exists for this bug - but unfortunately I can't find it. Can you help me to find it please? I'd like to update it. Opensource Obscure -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: grid_deferredrendering_bug.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34821 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/db11d317/attachment-0001.jpg From sythos at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 10:55:14 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:55:14 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20100917195514.98c4cd17.sythos@gmail.com> On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:36:50 -0500 Dale Mahalko wrote: > * Decode all JPEG2000's once, to all levels of mipmap scale, and write > the raw RGB mipmaps to disk as individual files (UUID+mipscale.bmp), > discarding the source JP2's. high load, and next time u see same object the viewer should download again the texture, re-decode it, match checksums, store decoded data if checksum don't match or skip if match (job of cache is store the know data), you don't save a bit, waste more bandwith. It may work with non-decoded data, but if not decoded is *actual* cache system... > * Decode all OGGs to WAV once, and write the raw WAV to disk, > discarding the OGGs. nice way to store music on stream.... > * Oh, and don't ever delete any assets until your dedicated 2 terabyte > cache drive is 99.99% full. every cached file can be touched everytime used, and only oldest file deleted if cache close to be full > * Let the local operating system deal with the file caching. If you > have 4+ gig of system memory, let the OS manage it for caching > frequently accessed world data. if i have 4+GB i use a ramdisk as cache... XD From domino at dominodesigns.info Fri Sep 17 10:58:48 2010 From: domino at dominodesigns.info (Domino Marama) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:58:48 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C93A070.9030905@lindenlab.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C93A070.9030905@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <1284746328.5262.3.camel@portable1> On Fri, 2010-09-17 at 13:08 -0400, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-17 12:56, Ponzu wrote: > > But some users want to be able to override this. I want a certain > > location to always load fast, even if I rarely visit it. > > > > User story: I want to mark certain locations as "Fast Loading" even > > if I do not visit them very often. This should override the automatic > > behavior of the system. > > Even if the cache had such controls, note that if anything changes at > the location while you're away (and the longer you have between visits, > the more likely that is), then it won't load from cache anyway. A prime example for this type of use are the various vehicle racers. I'm certain they would want to mark all the track sims as fast loading even if they only race on a particular track once a month. I suspect it's kinder to people who are practicing when you teleport in as well helping own performance on first couple of laps.. From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 17 11:11:34 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:11:34 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers In-Reply-To: References: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C93AF56.3060000@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-17 13:36, Ponzu wrote: > When will Snowstorm post a Development Viewer Snapshot - TBD > > 8-) already on the main secondlife.com downloads page (though we need a newer one) From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 17 11:13:01 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:13:01 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: > It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd > party contractor. not a insult. It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with it (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). From javajoint at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 11:22:48 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:22:48 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Altair Sythos wrote: > On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:17:27 -0700 > Daniel Smith wrote: > > > > A passive means of ranking a cache would be: > > > > 1) did the user already have an LM here? > > 2) did an object just give a user an LM to this place? > > 3) did the user just proactively create an LM? > > > > These are 3 distinct cases. #1 and #3 imply that the user has an > > interest in coming back, and is likely to want an ongoing cache. #2 > > implies that a store / venue etc may have given the user an LM they > > didn't want. > > Ram is a lot faster than cache-on-disk, caching on disk may cause more > lag while you force a re-check everytime you see it, > It's all a balance. You dont want to use so much ram that you start swapping to disk and thrashing with other processes. And... you dont want a disk cache so big that it becomes noticeably slow to do lookups. > > Another case is: if a user deletes an LM, it implies they may want > > to free up the cache for that location as well. > > don't understand, cache should store all textures for a whole sims just > why i've bookmarkd a LM? O_o > You cache what is in your draw distance, right? The discussion here, as I understand it, is about a level of preferential or "sticky" cache, based on some explicit or inferred direction from the user. A passive means of inferring what the user wants to preferentially cache is somewhat easy: if they LM it, that means they may be coming back soon, so they would prefer to have the cache of that place stick around. (and, as Oz points out, UUID's that are newer than the previous visit are going to get loaded from the server) And like I said, if you remove an LM, you most likely want to free up cache associated with it... (this is more granular than doing things on a per-sim level). A lot of this can be thought of in terms of the last 15 years of web browsers: if you bookmark a site, chances are you would prefer the cache for that to persist, as opposed to following a link and just quickly skimming a place you wont come back to. Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/3ffa4ffb/attachment.htm From javajoint at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 11:22:48 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:22:48 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Altair Sythos wrote: > On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:17:27 -0700 > Daniel Smith wrote: > > > > A passive means of ranking a cache would be: > > > > 1) did the user already have an LM here? > > 2) did an object just give a user an LM to this place? > > 3) did the user just proactively create an LM? > > > > These are 3 distinct cases. #1 and #3 imply that the user has an > > interest in coming back, and is likely to want an ongoing cache. #2 > > implies that a store / venue etc may have given the user an LM they > > didn't want. > > Ram is a lot faster than cache-on-disk, caching on disk may cause more > lag while you force a re-check everytime you see it, > It's all a balance. You dont want to use so much ram that you start swapping to disk and thrashing with other processes. And... you dont want a disk cache so big that it becomes noticeably slow to do lookups. > > Another case is: if a user deletes an LM, it implies they may want > > to free up the cache for that location as well. > > don't understand, cache should store all textures for a whole sims just > why i've bookmarkd a LM? O_o > You cache what is in your draw distance, right? The discussion here, as I understand it, is about a level of preferential or "sticky" cache, based on some explicit or inferred direction from the user. A passive means of inferring what the user wants to preferentially cache is somewhat easy: if they LM it, that means they may be coming back soon, so they would prefer to have the cache of that place stick around. (and, as Oz points out, UUID's that are newer than the previous visit are going to get loaded from the server) And like I said, if you remove an LM, you most likely want to free up cache associated with it... (this is more granular than doing things on a per-sim level). A lot of this can be thought of in terms of the last 15 years of web browsers: if you bookmark a site, chances are you would prefer the cache for that to persist, as opposed to following a link and just quickly skimming a place you wont come back to. Daniel -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/3ffa4ffb/attachment-0001.htm From akanevsky at productengine.com Fri Sep 17 11:39:48 2010 From: akanevsky at productengine.com (Anya Kanevsky) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:39:48 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Stability in Recent Dev Builds (and crash dumps?) In-Reply-To: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> Message-ID: Hey all, just wanted to let you know that crashhunters looked at the crashes in Development builds today and the top ones (including Bunny's) are being investigated. Cheers, anya (grumpity) 2010/9/16 Tillie Ariantho > On 16.09.2010 20:22, Bunny Halberd wrote: > > > So, I have two questions - 1.) are crash dumps working correctly on > > the dev builds, > > I crash 2 or 3 times a day too with the dev builds and only on rare > occasions a .dmp file with >0 bytes is written. > The crashes seem to be somewhat random, apparently more often when people > are around or arrive. > > I got one crash though that produced a dump file. > > Log looks like this: > > 2010-09-02T21:46:50Z INFO: LLVOAvatar::processAvatarAppearance: > AvatarAppearance msg received without any parameters, object: > fd56cc9b-0dcd-4fdb-8ca7-0e186524d064 > 2010-09-02T21:46:50Z INFO: LLVOAvatar::processAvatarAppearance: That's > okay, we already have a non-default shape for object: > fd56cc9b-0dcd-4fdb-8ca7-0e186524d064 > 2010-09-02T21:46:52Z WARNING: LLSysWellWindow::removeItemByID: Unable to > remove notification from the list, ID: 5e2c7343-57ce-b9e8-8699-d7cc9b1b10ad > 2010-09-02T21:46:52Z INFO: LLFloater::closeFloater: Closing floater toast > 2010-09-02T21:46:53Z INFO: LLAppViewer::idle: Kills on unknown objects: 3 > 2010-09-02T21:46:55Z INFO: LLAssetStorage::getAssetData: ASSET_TRACE > requesting 276e8dce-3a46-edc5-fe2e-e62b96197131 type animatn > 2010-09-02T21:46:55Z INFO: LLAssetStorage::getAssetData: ASSET_TRACE asset > 276e8dce-3a46-edc5-fe2e-e62b96197131 found in VFS > 2010-09-02T21:46:58Z INFO: display_stats: FPS: 49.90 > 2010-09-02T21:47:01Z INFO: LLAssetStorage::getAssetData: ASSET_TRACE > requesting 1d1bbc86-4c42-9fcb-5514-0c55da61fcc4 type animatn > 2010-09-02T21:47:01Z INFO: LLAssetStorage::getAssetData: ASSET_TRACE asset > 1d1bbc86-4c42-9fcb-5514-0c55da61fcc4 found in VFS > 2010-09-02T21:47:07Z INFO: display_stats: FPS: 49.10 > 2010-09-02T21:47:12Z INFO: display_stats: MEMORY: 1192 MB > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: windows_post_minidump_callback: generated > minidump: ba07ec5c-aebc-433a-a507-716f8c0faa21.dmp > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: windows_post_minidump_callback: Entering Windows > Exception Handler... > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLAppViewer::handleViewerCrash: Handle viewer > crash entry. > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLAppViewer::handleViewerCrash: Last render pool > type: 14 > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: ************* > PRINT OUT LL CALL STACKS ************* > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: > LLPipeline::postSort line: 2774 > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: > LLPipeline::postSort line: 2744 > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: > LLPipeline::postSort line: 2696 > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: > LLPipeline::postSort line: 2594 > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: > LLPipeline::postSort line: 2574 > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: > LLPipeline::postSort line: 2563 > 2010-09-02T21:47:14Z INFO: LLError::LLCallStacks::print: *************** > END OF LL CALL STACKS *************** > > If someone wants the dump file (Snowstorm build #208921 for that crash)... > > I think it didnt send out the crash data. The crashes with 0 byte dumps > dont do send anything ever. > > Tillie > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/4cde8753/attachment-0001.htm From mike.dickson at hp.com Fri Sep 17 12:01:17 2010 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Mike Dickson) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 15:01:17 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C93A070.9030905@lindenlab.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C93A070.9030905@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C93BAFD.4050003@hp.com> On 09/17/2010 01:08 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-17 12:56, Ponzu wrote: >> But some users want to be able to override this. I want a certain >> location to always load fast, even if I rarely visit it. >> >> User story: I want to mark certain locations as "Fast Loading" even >> if I do not visit them very often. This should override the automatic >> behavior of the system. Right, I could just as easily have written a user story as: "I want all locations to load fast". IMO a single well implemented cache module should optimize for the access by a user over time against changing data. That's the function of a cache in the first place. It's possible that the seperate caches in the client are limiting the usefulness of a cache at all and a single well implemented cache would do the trick. Mike >> Even if the cache had such controls, note that if anything changes at >> the location while you're away (and the longer you have between visits, >> the more likely that is), then it won't load from cache anyway. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 12:38:54 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:38:54 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: I am actually about finished with my mod for v2. It takes the sidebar.cpp file and only that file leaves all public method calls in. But its rewritten to be a floater manager where if you want to call say profile it launches it as a floater. Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the buttons back for them and menu choices. And there was much rejoicing.. Ill be submitting a patch soon. If its not wanted thats fine but it allows me to use viewer 2. and is easy to merge as the file is really the only file changed. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: > > It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd > > party contractor. not a insult. > > It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with it > (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/7f67862f/attachment.htm From vexstreeter at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 12:54:58 2010 From: vexstreeter at gmail.com (Vex Streeter) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 15:54:58 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C93C792.7080303@gmail.com> I think this is actually a crucial first step to cache improvement. The performance of this system would be an extremely useful baseline. For instance I'd love to be able to toggle between saving jp2 and raw w and w/out mipmap. There can be performance benefits to storing content compressed on disk, though it isn't clear to me that any of the SL assets would win here. I don't think it needs to be a real viewer at that level - It is pretty trivial to obfuscate assets at a similar level of protection as that currently used at a CPU cost that'll get lost in the noise (example: XOR asset UUID and post-header content with install-determined hash). Once the infrastructure is in place, a trivial obfuscater would make it TPV compliant, I'd think. On 09/16/2010 07:36 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > I just don't have the motivation for it myself, but I would really > like it if a 3rd party developer would gut out LL's texture cache and > eliminate the VFS, and replace them with a simple disk cache that > writes all assets in raw format, with files named by UUID on disk. > > * Decode all JPEG2000's once, to all levels of mipmap scale, and write > the raw RGB mipmaps to disk as individual files (UUID+mipscale.bmp), > discarding the source JP2's. > > * Decode all OGGs to WAV once, and write the raw WAV to disk, > discarding the OGGs. > > * Oh, and don't ever delete any assets until your dedicated 2 terabyte > cache drive is 99.99% full. > > * Let the local operating system deal with the file caching. If you > have 4+ gig of system memory, let the OS manage it for caching > frequently accessed world data. > > This cache would much simpler than the layered mess of caches > currently used, and it would give a speed boost over the constant JP2 > to RGB mipmap decoding and discarding that is in place now. Decode > once and don't ever do it again. > > , > > But I know it is just a dream. LL will never let it happen since it > will lay bare the data contents of every prim, texture, and object in > the virtual world, rather than obfuscating asset storage within the > current VFS / JP2 method. > > This viewer would get blacklisted before it ever got out the door. > > - Dale Mahalko / Scalar Tardis > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 13:24:08 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:24:08 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Freeze on new inventory window. Message-ID: I've noticed the last several development viewers I have tried have started freezing my system between 5-10 seconds for each time I attempt to open a new inventory window, and that the freezes last longer for each additional inventory window I open. I didn't have this in earlier versions of the viewer. Any idea what's causing it? Is this expected? I'm currently on Second Life 2.1.2 (209950). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/73d33b0f/attachment.htm From marinekelley at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 13:38:40 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 22:38:40 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Brandon I am sooo waiting for your patch impatiently ! On 17 September 2010 21:38, Brandon Husbands wrote: > I am actually about finished with my mod for v2. > > It takes the sidebar.cpp file and only that file leaves all public method > calls in. > But its rewritten to be a floater manager where if you want to call say > profile it launches it as a floater. > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the buttons > back for them and menu choices. > > And there was much rejoicing.. Ill be submitting a patch soon. If its not > wanted thats fine but it allows me to use viewer 2. > and is easy to merge as the file is really the only file changed. > > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < > oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > >> On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: >> > It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd >> > party contractor. not a insult. >> >> It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with it >> (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/1f9f49e7/attachment.htm From oz at lindenlab.com Fri Sep 17 13:51:38 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:51:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C93D4DA.7050904@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-17 15:38, Brandon Husbands wrote: > I am actually about finished with my mod for v2. > > It takes the sidebar.cpp file and only that file leaves all public > method calls in. > But its rewritten to be a floater manager where if you want to call > say profile it launches it as a floater. > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the > buttons back for them and menu choices. From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off as separate windows? From javajoint at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 13:54:39 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:54:39 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <4C93D4DA.7050904@lindenlab.com> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> <4C93D4DA.7050904@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-09-17 15:38, Brandon Husbands wrote: > > I am actually about finished with my mod for v2. > > > > It takes the sidebar.cpp file and only that file leaves all public > > method calls in. > > But its rewritten to be a floater manager where if you want to call > > say profile it launches it as a floater. > > > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the > > buttons back for them and menu choices. > > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off > as separate windows? > > > The key word is: "launches" -- i.e. fewer steps to get to the desired display. -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/4804ebff/attachment-0001.htm From tinacloud at gmx.de Fri Sep 17 14:02:05 2010 From: tinacloud at gmx.de (Zi Ree) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:02:05 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <4C93D4DA.7050904@lindenlab.com> References: <4C93D4DA.7050904@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <201009172302.05193.tinacloud@gmx.de> Am Freitag 17 September 2010 22:51:38 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the > > buttons back for them and menu choices. > > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off > as separate windows? I really really hope the difference is the ability to open as many profile and property floaters as we want, and not being limited to a single instance. Does the current Development viewer do that? Zi From marinekelley at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 14:12:05 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:12:05 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <201009172302.05193.tinacloud@gmx.de> References: <4C93D4DA.7050904@lindenlab.com> <201009172302.05193.tinacloud@gmx.de> Message-ID: On 17 September 2010 23:02, Zi Ree wrote: > Am Freitag 17 September 2010 22:51:38 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > > > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the > > > buttons back for them and menu choices. > > > > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current > > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off > > as separate windows? > > I really really hope the difference is the ability to open as many profile > and > property floaters as we want, and not being limited to a single instance. > Does > the current Development viewer do that? > > Yes the very point of being able to tear off some tabs is to be able to actually copy them, and to switch to another tab in order to do some drag-and-drop like in 1.x. Tearing one tab just to tear it and not have it in the sidebar is rather pointless, if you ask me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/48d8a711/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 14:14:01 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:14:01 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Side topic related to cache (was Re: User Story: Improved Cache Message-ID: I have also thought a bit about the situation where two or more users are on the same subnet. Think of a dozens of people in the same LAN in a meeting, for example. Current system has each user building an almost identical cache locally. Instead, what if all the users went through a proxy, and the proxy did the caching? Wouldn't that be a big win? From sythos at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 14:37:12 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:37:12 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Side topic related to cache (was Re: User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100917233712.fb9081ce.sythos@gmail.com> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:14:01 -0400 Ponzu wrote: > I have also thought a bit about the situation where two or more users > are on the same subnet. Think of a dozens of people in the same LAN > in a meeting, for example. > > Current system has each user building an almost identical cache > locally. > > Instead, what if all the users went through a proxy, and the proxy did > the caching? Wouldn't that be a big win? by the way viewer support proxy you can use a local caching proxy (oops, squid, sort off) and already extend *ALL* you want (HTTP get textures.... cached in a standard HTTP cached server) From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 16:39:39 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:39:39 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <61FB93D1-837E-403E-B5E1-D2526B15B915@gmail.com> Now if only we could resize the width of the sidebar, we'd be getting somewhere. ;-) Seems like extra clicks and screen clutter to be able to see a little bit wider for inventory windows and group notices. Pop open sidebar, detach or bounce to right side, and THEN finally be able to resize. But then juggle the other windows if you need to actually interact with anything in-world. I do like where it's headed though, great progress is being made. Cheers to those working on it Trilo On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: >> It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd >> party contractor. not a insult. > > It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with it > (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From trilobyte550m at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 16:42:03 2010 From: trilobyte550m at gmail.com (Trilo Byte) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:42:03 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers In-Reply-To: <4C93AF56.3060000@lindenlab.com> References: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> <4C93AF56.3060000@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <5A060D93-85DB-42EE-8711-BC7955935CDB@gmail.com> I agree, a newer one's needed (Phillip pledged to residents there would be updates every 2 weeks, that doesn't seem to be happening). However, until anti-aliasing gets fixed 2.1.2 isn't ready for prime time. Trilo On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-17 13:36, Ponzu wrote: >> When will Snowstorm post a Development Viewer Snapshot - TBD >> >> 8-) > > already on the main secondlife.com downloads page (though we need a > newer one) > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 17:00:24 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:00:24 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <61FB93D1-837E-403E-B5E1-D2526B15B915@gmail.com> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> <61FB93D1-837E-403E-B5E1-D2526B15B915@gmail.com> Message-ID: Your able to open as many of each as you want.... And resize.... And actually close so it does not sit there minimised... Thats how it works with my patch... On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Trilo Byte wrote: > Now if only we could resize the width of the sidebar, we'd be getting > somewhere. ;-) Seems like extra clicks and screen clutter to be able to see > a little bit wider for inventory windows and group notices. Pop open > sidebar, detach or bounce to right side, and THEN finally be able to resize. > But then juggle the other windows if you need to actually interact with > anything in-world. > > I do like where it's headed though, great progress is being made. Cheers > to those working on it > > Trilo > > On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: > >> It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd > >> party contractor. not a insult. > > > > It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with it > > (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/134a85cc/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 17:02:02 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:02:02 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? In-Reply-To: <4C93D4DA.7050904@lindenlab.com> References: <4C927567.7000804@xp2.de> <808625.98612.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <12297.16799.qm@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4C93AFAD.3030909@lindenlab.com> <4C93D4DA.7050904@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: The current functionality you cant really close resizing is a pain and the floater on minimize has a header that stays in place. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On 2010-09-17 15:38, Brandon Husbands wrote: > >> I am actually about finished with my mod for v2. >> >> It takes the sidebar.cpp file and only that file leaves all public method >> calls in. >> But its rewritten to be a floater manager where if you want to call say >> profile it launches it as a floater. >> >> Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the buttons >> back for them and menu choices. >> > > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off as > separate windows? > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/5ec653e8/attachment-0001.htm From akanevsky at productengine.com Fri Sep 17 17:08:49 2010 From: akanevsky at productengine.com (Anya Kanevsky) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:08:49 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Freeze on new inventory window. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Erin, is there a jira? thanks! anya 2010/9/17 Erin Mallory > I've noticed the last several development viewers I have tried have > started freezing my system between 5-10 seconds for each time I attempt to > open a new inventory window, and that the freezes last longer for each > additional inventory window I open. I didn't have this in earlier versions > of the viewer. Any idea what's causing it? Is this expected? I'm > currently on Second Life 2.1.2 (209950). > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/8556424a/attachment.htm From suezanne at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 18:03:40 2010 From: suezanne at gmail.com (SuezanneC Baskerville) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:03:40 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 8, Issue 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope that some TPV developers provide us with alternatives to kludgily modified, poorly designed panels for groups, profiles, inventory, etc. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 7:02 PM, < opensource-dev-request at lists.secondlife.com> wrote: > Send opensource-dev mailing list submissions to > opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > opensource-dev-request at lists.secondlife.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > opensource-dev-owner at lists.secondlife.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of opensource-dev digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Zi Ree) > 2. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Marine Kelley) > 3. Side topic related to cache (was Re: User Story: Improved > Cache (Ponzu) > 4. Re: Side topic related to cache (was Re: User Story: Improved > Cache (Altair Sythos Memo) > 5. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Trilo Byte) > 6. Re: Where to put & look for test viewers (Trilo Byte) > 7. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Brandon Husbands) > 8. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Brandon Husbands) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:02:05 +0200 > From: Zi Ree > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? > To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Message-ID: <201009172302.05193.tinacloud at gmx.de> > Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Am Freitag 17 September 2010 22:51:38 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > > > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the > > > buttons back for them and menu choices. > > > > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current > > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off > > as separate windows? > > I really really hope the difference is the ability to open as many profile > and > property floaters as we want, and not being limited to a single instance. > Does > the current Development viewer do that? > > Zi > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:12:05 +0200 > From: Marine Kelley > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? > To: Zi Ree > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > On 17 September 2010 23:02, Zi Ree wrote: > > > Am Freitag 17 September 2010 22:51:38 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): > > > > > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the > > > > buttons back for them and menu choices. > > > > > > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current > > > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels > off > > > as separate windows? > > > > I really really hope the difference is the ability to open as many > profile > > and > > property floaters as we want, and not being limited to a single instance. > > Does > > the current Development viewer do that? > > > > Yes the very point of being able to tear off some tabs is to be able to > actually copy them, and to switch to another tab in order to do some > drag-and-drop like in 1.x. Tearing one tab just to tear it and not have it > in the sidebar is rather pointless, if you ask me. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/48d8a711/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:14:01 -0400 > From: Ponzu > Subject: [opensource-dev] Side topic related to cache (was Re: User > Story: Improved Cache > To: Vex Streeter > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I have also thought a bit about the situation where two or more users > are on the same subnet. Think of a dozens of people in the same LAN > in a meeting, for example. > > Current system has each user building an almost identical cache locally. > > Instead, what if all the users went through a proxy, and the proxy did > the caching? Wouldn't that be a big win? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:37:12 +0200 > From: Altair "Sythos" Memo > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Side topic related to cache (was Re: > User Story: Improved Cache > To: Ponzu > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Message-ID: <20100917233712.fb9081ce.sythos at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:14:01 -0400 > Ponzu wrote: > > > I have also thought a bit about the situation where two or more users > > are on the same subnet. Think of a dozens of people in the same LAN > > in a meeting, for example. > > > > Current system has each user building an almost identical cache > > locally. > > > > Instead, what if all the users went through a proxy, and the proxy did > > the caching? Wouldn't that be a big win? > > by the way viewer support proxy you can use a local caching proxy > (oops, squid, sort off) and already extend *ALL* you want (HTTP get > textures.... cached in a standard HTTP cached server) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:39:39 +0100 > From: Trilo Byte > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? > To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Message-ID: <61FB93D1-837E-403E-B5E1-D2526B15B915 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Now if only we could resize the width of the sidebar, we'd be getting > somewhere. ;-) Seems like extra clicks and screen clutter to be able to see > a little bit wider for inventory windows and group notices. Pop open > sidebar, detach or bounce to right side, and THEN finally be able to resize. > But then juggle the other windows if you need to actually interact with > anything in-world. > > I do like where it's headed though, great progress is being made. Cheers > to those working on it > > Trilo > > On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: > >> It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd > >> party contractor. not a insult. > > > > It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with it > > (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:42:03 +0100 > From: Trilo Byte > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers > To: opensource-dev > Message-ID: <5A060D93-85DB-42EE-8711-BC7955935CDB at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I agree, a newer one's needed (Phillip pledged to residents there would be > updates every 2 weeks, that doesn't seem to be happening). However, until > anti-aliasing gets fixed 2.1.2 isn't ready for prime time. > > Trilo > > On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > On 2010-09-17 13:36, Ponzu wrote: > >> When will Snowstorm post a Development Viewer Snapshot - TBD > >> > >> 8-) > > > > already on the main secondlife.com downloads page (though we need a > > newer one) > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:00:24 -0500 > From: Brandon Husbands > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? > To: Trilo Byte > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Your able to open as many of each as you want.... > And resize.... And actually close so it does not sit there minimised... > Thats how it works with my patch... > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Trilo Byte > wrote: > > > Now if only we could resize the width of the sidebar, we'd be getting > > somewhere. ;-) Seems like extra clicks and screen clutter to be able to > see > > a little bit wider for inventory windows and group notices. Pop open > > sidebar, detach or bounce to right side, and THEN finally be able to > resize. > > But then juggle the other windows if you need to actually interact with > > anything in-world. > > > > I do like where it's headed though, great progress is being made. Cheers > > to those working on it > > > > Trilo > > > > On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > > > > On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: > > >> It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd > > >> party contractor. not a insult. > > > > > > It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with > it > > > (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may > be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/134a85cc/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:02:02 -0500 > From: Brandon Husbands > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? > To: "Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)" > Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > The current functionality you cant really close resizing is a pain and the > floater on minimize has a header that stays in place. > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < > oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: > > > On 2010-09-17 15:38, Brandon Husbands wrote: > > > >> I am actually about finished with my mod for v2. > >> > >> It takes the sidebar.cpp file and only that file leaves all public > method > >> calls in. > >> But its rewritten to be a floater manager where if you want to call say > >> profile it launches it as a floater. > >> > >> Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the buttons > >> back for them and menu choices. > >> > > > > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current > > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off > as > > separate windows? > > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may > be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/5ec653e8/attachment.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > opensource-dev mailing list > opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev > > > End of opensource-dev Digest, Vol 8, Issue 75 > ********************************************* > -- v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/bd6308d9/attachment-0001.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 18:14:32 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 20:14:32 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 8, Issue 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately I no longer work on a TPV team so Ill just have to submit patches and hope they get used. Dim. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 8:03 PM, SuezanneC Baskerville wrote: > I hope that some TPV developers provide us with alternatives to kludgily > modified, poorly designed panels for groups, profiles, inventory, etc. > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 7:02 PM, < > opensource-dev-request at lists.secondlife.com> wrote: > >> Send opensource-dev mailing list submissions to >> opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >> https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> opensource-dev-request at lists.secondlife.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> opensource-dev-owner at lists.secondlife.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of opensource-dev digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Zi Ree) >> 2. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Marine Kelley) >> 3. Side topic related to cache (was Re: User Story: Improved >> Cache (Ponzu) >> 4. Re: Side topic related to cache (was Re: User Story: Improved >> Cache (Altair Sythos Memo) >> 5. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Trilo Byte) >> 6. Re: Where to put & look for test viewers (Trilo Byte) >> 7. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Brandon Husbands) >> 8. Re: Snowstorm - Product Engine? (Brandon Husbands) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:02:05 +0200 >> From: Zi Ree >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? >> To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> Message-ID: <201009172302.05193.tinacloud at gmx.de> >> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Am Freitag 17 September 2010 22:51:38 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence): >> >> > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the >> > > buttons back for them and menu choices. >> > >> > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current >> > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off >> > as separate windows? >> >> I really really hope the difference is the ability to open as many profile >> and >> property floaters as we want, and not being limited to a single instance. >> Does >> the current Development viewer do that? >> >> Zi >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:12:05 +0200 >> From: Marine Kelley >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? >> To: Zi Ree >> Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> On 17 September 2010 23:02, Zi Ree wrote: >> >> > Am Freitag 17 September 2010 22:51:38 schrieb Oz Linden (Scott >> Lawrence): >> > >> > > > Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the >> > > > buttons back for them and menu choices. >> > > >> > > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current >> > > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels >> off >> > > as separate windows? >> > >> > I really really hope the difference is the ability to open as many >> profile >> > and >> > property floaters as we want, and not being limited to a single >> instance. >> > Does >> > the current Development viewer do that? >> > >> > Yes the very point of being able to tear off some tabs is to be able to >> actually copy them, and to switch to another tab in order to do some >> drag-and-drop like in 1.x. Tearing one tab just to tear it and not have it >> in the sidebar is rather pointless, if you ask me. >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/48d8a711/attachment-0001.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:14:01 -0400 >> From: Ponzu >> Subject: [opensource-dev] Side topic related to cache (was Re: User >> Story: Improved Cache >> To: Vex Streeter >> Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I have also thought a bit about the situation where two or more users >> are on the same subnet. Think of a dozens of people in the same LAN >> in a meeting, for example. >> >> Current system has each user building an almost identical cache locally. >> >> Instead, what if all the users went through a proxy, and the proxy did >> the caching? Wouldn't that be a big win? >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:37:12 +0200 >> From: Altair "Sythos" Memo >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Side topic related to cache (was Re: >> User Story: Improved Cache >> To: Ponzu >> Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> Message-ID: <20100917233712.fb9081ce.sythos at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >> >> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:14:01 -0400 >> Ponzu wrote: >> >> > I have also thought a bit about the situation where two or more users >> > are on the same subnet. Think of a dozens of people in the same LAN >> > in a meeting, for example. >> > >> > Current system has each user building an almost identical cache >> > locally. >> > >> > Instead, what if all the users went through a proxy, and the proxy did >> > the caching? Wouldn't that be a big win? >> >> by the way viewer support proxy you can use a local caching proxy >> (oops, squid, sort off) and already extend *ALL* you want (HTTP get >> textures.... cached in a standard HTTP cached server) >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:39:39 +0100 >> From: Trilo Byte >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? >> To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> Message-ID: <61FB93D1-837E-403E-B5E1-D2526B15B915 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Now if only we could resize the width of the sidebar, we'd be getting >> somewhere. ;-) Seems like extra clicks and screen clutter to be able to see >> a little bit wider for inventory windows and group notices. Pop open >> sidebar, detach or bounce to right side, and THEN finally be able to resize. >> But then juggle the other windows if you need to actually interact with >> anything in-world. >> >> I do like where it's headed though, great progress is being made. Cheers >> to those working on it >> >> Trilo >> >> On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> >> > On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: >> >> It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd >> >> party contractor. not a insult. >> > >> > It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with it >> > (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:42:03 +0100 >> From: Trilo Byte >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers >> To: opensource-dev >> Message-ID: <5A060D93-85DB-42EE-8711-BC7955935CDB at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> I agree, a newer one's needed (Phillip pledged to residents there would be >> updates every 2 weeks, that doesn't seem to be happening). However, until >> anti-aliasing gets fixed 2.1.2 isn't ready for prime time. >> >> Trilo >> >> On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> >> > On 2010-09-17 13:36, Ponzu wrote: >> >> When will Snowstorm post a Development Viewer Snapshot - TBD >> >> >> >> 8-) >> > >> > already on the main secondlife.com downloads page (though we need a >> > newer one) >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:00:24 -0500 >> From: Brandon Husbands >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? >> To: Trilo Byte >> Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Your able to open as many of each as you want.... >> And resize.... And actually close so it does not sit there minimised... >> Thats how it works with my patch... >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Trilo Byte >> wrote: >> >> > Now if only we could resize the width of the sidebar, we'd be getting >> > somewhere. ;-) Seems like extra clicks and screen clutter to be able to >> see >> > a little bit wider for inventory windows and group notices. Pop open >> > sidebar, detach or bounce to right side, and THEN finally be able to >> resize. >> > But then juggle the other windows if you need to actually interact with >> > anything in-world. >> > >> > I do like where it's headed though, great progress is being made. >> Cheers >> > to those working on it >> > >> > Trilo >> > >> > On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:13 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> > >> > > On 2010-09-17 13:49, Brandon Husbands wrote: >> > >> It was a serious question. I wanted to know if LL did it or a 3rd >> > >> party contractor. not a insult. >> > > >> > > It doesn't matter... it's there, and we're going to have to deal with >> it >> > > (as in the recent changes to make panels detachable). >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> > privileges >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> > privileges >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email >> may >> be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not >> Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/134a85cc/attachment-0001.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:02:02 -0500 >> From: Brandon Husbands >> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm - Product Engine? >> To: "Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)" >> Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> The current functionality you cant really close resizing is a pain and the >> floater on minimize has a header that stays in place. >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) < >> oz at lindenlab.com> wrote: >> >> > On 2010-09-17 15:38, Brandon Husbands wrote: >> > >> >> I am actually about finished with my mod for v2. >> >> >> >> It takes the sidebar.cpp file and only that file leaves all public >> method >> >> calls in. >> >> But its rewritten to be a floater manager where if you want to call say >> >> profile it launches it as a floater. >> >> >> >> Thus restoring 1x functionality. All thats left to do is add the >> buttons >> >> back for them and menu choices. >> >> >> > >> > From an end user point of view, how does that differ from the current >> > Development viewer functionality if the user has torn all the panels off >> as >> > separate windows? >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email >> may >> be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not >> Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/5ec653e8/attachment.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> opensource-dev mailing list >> opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com >> https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensource-dev >> >> >> End of opensource-dev Digest, Vol 8, Issue 75 >> ********************************************* >> > > > > -- > v i r t u a l w o r l d e n t h u s i a s t > -- http://www.google.com/profiles/s u e z a n n e -- > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100917/b78390b1/attachment-0001.htm From gcanaday at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 19:13:20 2010 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 22:13:20 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <20100917195514.98c4cd17.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4C925456.2070906@lindenlab.com> <20100917195514.98c4cd17.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1284776000.2670.1.camel@glen-desktop> > > * Let the local operating system deal with the file caching. If you > > have 4+ gig of system memory, let the OS manage it for caching > > frequently accessed world data. > > if i have 4+GB i use a ramdisk as cache... XD > Wow. I am getting VERY old and senile. WHY oh why I didn't think of this, I don't know - I used to use them all the time for other things that needed fast file access. --GC From marc at inworlddesigns.com Fri Sep 17 22:42:16 2010 From: marc at inworlddesigns.com (Marc Adored) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 01:42:16 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Option to send notices to email even when online Message-ID: I wasn't sure if this is the right place to post this but on the https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo page it says sldev has been moved here so i suppose this is the only place to post this. I posted a jira for this option because I couldn't find an existing jira and just wanted to get the word out about it and see others opinions on it. I know there are other people who at one point and time needed a past notice to review past events to make better decisions on current events and didn't have in in their email because they where online when the notice was sent out. Specially in large groups with lots of RP action and disciplinary notices. The jira is at: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6330 From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Sat Sep 18 04:25:15 2010 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:25:15 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Option to send notices to email even when online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C94A19B.1010703@boroon.dasgupta.ch> On 09/18/2010 07:42 AM, Marc Adored wrote: > I wasn't sure if this is the right place to post this but on the > https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo page it says > sldev has been moved here Yes, the list was moved quite some time ago. The old name was the same as that of a much older but unrelated inworld group, so this step was taken to avoid confusion between the two programs. > I posted a jira for this option because I couldn't find an existing > jira and just wanted to get the word out about it and see others > opinions on it. I know there are other people who at one point and > time needed a past notice to review past events to make better > decisions on current events and didn't have in in their email because > they where online when the notice was sent out. Specially in large > groups with lots of RP action and disciplinary notices. > > The jira is at: > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6330 I think I've seen a jira issue about the same topic some time ago, but can't seem to find it again. However I found SVC-4547 which is similar, but about IMs (not group notices) and also mentions "IM to email when Busy", which would be very useful for some, too. To allow maximum flexibility with minimum UI clutter, one could replace the current checkboxes for these settings with drop down lists: Send incoming personal IMs to email: Send group notices to email: (For those receiving this mail as text-only: The options in both the drop downs are: "Always", "When offline or busy", "When offline" and "Never".) What server side changes would be needed for those options to work, I don't know. Cheers, Boroondas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100918/2c29a261/attachment.htm From jbhancroft at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 08:37:50 2010 From: jbhancroft at gmail.com (JB Hancroft) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 11:37:50 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Side topic related to cache (was Re: User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <20100917233712.fb9081ce.sythos@gmail.com> References: <20100917233712.fb9081ce.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was just sketching this up yesterday, in a brainstorming session with some folks about how we thought the v.w. systems would be morphing over the next 2-5 years. A co-operative P2P network of users who would be willing to opt into "participate in cache sharing" would be a good idea. Having the cache be fairly intelligent - broadcasting requests and then maintaining a list of "fast and available" similarly co-operative viewers. It definitely offloads comm work from always going back to the SL servers over and over. This problem has been solved many times by many projects. It seems to me that it would improve the user experience "Fast"... and also impact LL's operational budget significantly (in a good way :). Regards, - JB On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: > On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:14:01 -0400 > Ponzu wrote: > > > I have also thought a bit about the situation where two or more users > > are on the same subnet. Think of a dozens of people in the same LAN > > in a meeting, for example. > > > > Current system has each user building an almost identical cache > > locally. > > > > Instead, what if all the users went through a proxy, and the proxy did > > the caching? Wouldn't that be a big win? > > by the way viewer support proxy you can use a local caching proxy > (oops, squid, sort off) and already extend *ALL* you want (HTTP get > textures.... cached in a standard HTTP cached server) > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100918/82783d6d/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 10:29:37 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:29:37 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Side topic related to cache (was Re: User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <20100917233712.fb9081ce.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:37 AM, JB Hancroft wrote: e thought the v.w. systems would be morphing over the next 2-5 years. > > A co-operative P2P network of users who would be willing to opt into > "participate in cache sharing" > would be a good idea.? Having the cache be fairly intelligent - broadcasting > requests and then maintaining > a list of "fast and available" similarly co-operative viewers. It definitely > offloads comm work from always > going back to the SL servers over and over. This problem has been solved > many times by many projects. Would be a great academic project for serious undergrad, Masters, or even PhD. From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 10:33:17 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:33:17 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Wiki pages Message-ID: FYI I have been working on the Wiki pages about Downloading and Building. If you watch those pages, now might be a good time to see if I screwed things up beyond belief (don't think I did, just saying...). In a few places, I just marked statements as OBSOLETE! because I haven't had time to fix them. Also, be on the lookout for topics X that say See Y, but when you go to Y, it says See X. I fixed a few, but there are likely others. Lastly, I actually downloaded and built on OS X. Proud of myself. Build failed, though, so I might be back. regards, lee From sldev at free.fr Sat Sep 18 11:35:05 2010 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:35:05 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] For the benefit of TPV developers. Message-ID: <20100918203505.e754c6ad.sldev@free.fr> Multiple attachment and inventory items links backport for viewer v1.23.5 and Snowglobe v1.5 is available now as a standalone patch (in fact two, one for each viewer branch) from my website. See the announces for details: http://sldev.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=321&p=1319#p1319 (multiple attachments) http://sldev.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=299 (inventory item links) http://sldev.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2&p=1322#p1322 (Cool VL Viewer v1.23.5.29 and v1.25.0.6 implementing the above). Enjoy ! From vexstreeter at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 16:17:03 2010 From: vexstreeter at gmail.com (Vex Streeter) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:17:03 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Externally controllable viewers? Message-ID: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> Who's currently working on doing external control of viewer functions, especially avatar control? I know of a few people doing AR sorts of things that would qualify and some of the viewer-plugin and modularity work would certainly help. I'm going to be doing some viewer hacking to allow some additional input devices and would like to be as general as possible (and not reinvent the wheel). Many thanks Vex From sythos at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 16:23:39 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:23:39 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Externally controllable viewers? In-Reply-To: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> References: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100919012339.b5511449.sythos@gmail.com> On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:17:03 -0400 Vex Streeter wrote: > Who's currently working on doing external control of viewer > functions, especially avatar control? I know of a few people doing > AR sorts of things that would qualify and some of the viewer-plugin > and modularity work would certainly help. I'm going to be doing some > viewer hacking to allow some additional input devices and would like > to be as general as possible (and not reinvent the wheel). sorry... do you mean sort of bot for group invite and similar when you say "eexternal control"? From latifer at streamgrid.net Sat Sep 18 18:00:41 2010 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 03:00:41 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] For the benefit of TPV developers. In-Reply-To: <20100918203505.e754c6ad.sldev@free.fr> References: <20100918203505.e754c6ad.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: This is great, thank you Heri! I only wish other independent viewer devs would provide patch repository like this. On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > Multiple attachment and inventory items links backport for viewer v1.23.5 > and Snowglobe v1.5 is available now as a standalone patch (in fact two, > one for each viewer branch) from my website. > > See the announces for details: > http://sldev.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=321&p=1319#p1319 > (multiple attachments) > > http://sldev.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=299 > (inventory item links) > > http://sldev.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2&p=1322#p1322 > (Cool VL Viewer v1.23.5.29 and v1.25.0.6 implementing the > above). > > Enjoy ! > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From vexstreeter at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 18:19:00 2010 From: vexstreeter at gmail.com (Vex Streeter) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:19:00 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Externally controllable viewers? In-Reply-To: <20100919012339.b5511449.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> <20100919012339.b5511449.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C956504.8@gmail.com> No - avatar motion, gestures, animation from a non-viewer and non-SL source... probably chat, possibly lookat and touch. Heck, I'd love to get some of the old "avatar puppetry" stuff involved, but that'll be overkill for this use. If all I was interested in was control, I'd use libopenmetaverse, but there will be a real person watching their avatar interact with SL, just not using traditional controls. On 9/18/2010 7:23 PM, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:17:03 -0400 > Vex Streeter wrote: > >> Who's currently working on doing external control of viewer >> functions, especially avatar control? I know of a few people doing >> AR sorts of things that would qualify and some of the viewer-plugin >> and modularity work would certainly help. I'm going to be doing some >> viewer hacking to allow some additional input devices and would like >> to be as general as possible (and not reinvent the wheel). > sorry... do you mean sort of bot for group invite and similar when you > say "eexternal control"? From secret.argent at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 18:51:22 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:51:22 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D193D9A-80DE-47CD-A054-7D1A99381DB4@gmail.com> I honestly think that going to a straight squid-style cache for textures would so improve the user experience that worrying about extra features like "preferred places" would become irrelevant. From secret.argent at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 18:53:21 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:53:21 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2010-09-17, at 12:51, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > There aren't tools to assure to an agent him cached texture is still > one cached the teleport before... Not needed. Textures are static. UUIDs are never re-used. From sythos at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 18:55:43 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 03:55:43 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4D193D9A-80DE-47CD-A054-7D1A99381DB4@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <4D193D9A-80DE-47CD-A054-7D1A99381DB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100919035543.7e6a1f1a.sythos@gmail.com> On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:51:22 -0500 Argent Stonecutter wrote: > I honestly think that going to a straight squid-style cache for > textures would so improve the user experience that worrying about > extra features like "preferred places" would become irrelevant. in fact... now "HTTP" textures allow a banal local caching proxy (squid is a lil big, but fine, just a bit oversized for a "personal" use) From sythos at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 18:57:05 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 03:57:05 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:53:21 -0500 Argent Stonecutter wrote: > On 2010-09-17, at 12:51, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > > There aren't tools to assure to an agent him cached texture is still > > one cached the teleport before... > > Not needed. Textures are static. UUIDs are never re-used. prims change... you're assuming nobody modify the whole sim... From oz at lindenlab.com Sat Sep 18 19:12:01 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 22:12:01 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Where to put & look for test viewers In-Reply-To: <5A060D93-85DB-42EE-8711-BC7955935CDB@gmail.com> References: <4C93946D.2000601@lindenlab.com> <4C93AF56.3060000@lindenlab.com> <5A060D93-85DB-42EE-8711-BC7955935CDB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C957171.9080605@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-17 19:42, Trilo Byte wrote: > I agree, a newer one's needed (Phillip pledged to residents there would be updates every 2 weeks, that doesn't seem to be happening). However, until anti-aliasing gets fixed 2.1.2 isn't ready for prime time. we're still shaking down our processes, but we'll get a new Development viewer up on the downloads page within a couple of days.... in the mean time, there is the one on the wiki (and that download page points to many others) From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 22:23:35 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:23:35 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] May I ask the reasoning of something? Message-ID: May I ask what the reasoning of the design of the notifications of the okay button of a notification being in the same spot as the decline button of another notification that will pop up in front of the first? Especially since declined items no longer go to trash? I have lost $1000's of L$ because of that and its getting OLD. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/c4bb25c7/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 23:26:27 2010 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 23:26:27 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] May I ask the reasoning of something? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Erin Mallory wrote: > May I ask what the reasoning of the design of the notifications of the okay > button of a notification being in the same spot as the decline button of > another notification that will pop up in front of the first? Especially > since declined items no longer go to trash?? I have lost $1000's of L$ > because of that and its getting OLD. I don't use 2.x very much, but I remember having this problem. I see no Jira on this issue. But I may not be searching very well. If you make a Jira, and I'd happily give it a vote. I believe this could be a disastrous problem and cause grief for vendors, especially those of nocopy products. I'm surprised it hasn't been brought to attention earlier. Stickman From lists.secondlife.com at trap.wereanimal.net Sat Sep 18 23:39:13 2010 From: lists.secondlife.com at trap.wereanimal.net (lists.secondlife.com at trap.wereanimal.net) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 02:39:13 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4D193D9A-80DE-47CD-A054-7D1A99381DB4@gmail.com> References: <4D193D9A-80DE-47CD-A054-7D1A99381DB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201009190239.13321.lists.secondlife.com@trap.wereanimal.net> On Saturday 18 September 2010 9:51:22 pm Argent Stonecutter wrote: > I honestly think that going to a straight squid-style cache for textures > would so improve the user experience that worrying about extra features > like "preferred places" would become irrelevant. I have managed to get a local squid proxy set up on my system and I use it all the time. The local squid proxy works on 1.5 based code. Viewer 2.x can not use it due to no http texture proxy setting. I use a 32GB squid proxy cache and it performs quiet well. -- Techwolf Lupindo From mrfrans at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 00:28:44 2010 From: mrfrans at gmail.com (Frans) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 09:28:44 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Option to send notices to email even when online In-Reply-To: <4C94A19B.1010703@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4C94A19B.1010703@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: I think a rephrased jira might be in place, I don't care if it goes to email or some other solution is made. *As a user I would like to have easier, more robust, access to all group notices of the groups I'm in. *Solutions: 1) have a option to always send them to email, even when online. (easiest) 2) provide a menu in the viewer that lists all the notices from all my groups, being able to sort them by group, date/time or notice creator. (better user experience) This reminds me of something else I would like *As a user I would like the group notices that are send to my email to contain all Information that it does in the client.* Right now the avatar sending the message is not included in the email, and when there is a attachment it just says there is a attachment. I would like to see the avatar name be included, and the attachments. If the attachment is: - a landmark, it could be converted to a slurl, or map. url. - a image, include the full image, or if that is a permission problem, use the search version of the image/texture, like this: http://secondlife.com/app/image/7d9c36d7-dd00-5ee7-eed6-3249d2c693a5/1 - a notecard, include the text, surls and images. - If it is a object, sound, animation, something else, say what kind of asset it is and it's name. -Frans On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > On 09/18/2010 07:42 AM, Marc Adored wrote: > > I wasn't sure if this is the right place to post this but on thehttps://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo page it says > sldev has been moved here > > Yes, the list was moved quite some time ago. The old name was the same as > that of a much older but unrelated inworld group, so this step was taken to > avoid confusion between the two programs. > > > I posted a jira for this option because I couldn't find an existing > jira and just wanted to get the word out about it and see others > opinions on it. I know there are other people who at one point and > time needed a past notice to review past events to make better > decisions on current events and didn't have in in their email because > they where online when the notice was sent out. Specially in large > groups with lots of RP action and disciplinary notices. > > The jira is at:http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6330 > > I think I've seen a jira issue about the same topic some time ago, but > can't seem to find it again. However I found SVC-4547which is similar, but about IMs (not group notices) and also mentions "IM to > email when Busy", which would be very useful for some, too. > > To allow maximum flexibility with minimum UI clutter, one could replace the > current checkboxes for these settings with drop down lists: > > Send incoming personal IMs to email: Always When offline or busy When > offline Never > Send group notices to email: Always When offline or busy When offline > Never > > (For those receiving this mail as text-only: The options in both the drop > downs are: "Always", "When offline or busy", "When offline" and "Never".) > What server side changes would be needed for those options to work, I don't > know. > > Cheers, > Boroondas > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Jeroen Frans Virtual World Technology Specialist @ http://VesuviusGroup.com Second Life: Frans Charming blog about SL @ http://secondslog.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/ae787ba1/attachment.htm From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Sun Sep 19 00:40:08 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 03:40:08 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] May I ask the reasoning of something? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: I really thought there had been others. I think i might have even created one at one point, but i could not find it. so i made a new one: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23098 > Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 23:26:27 -0700 > Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] May I ask the reasoning of something? > From: stickman at gmail.com > To: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com > CC: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Erin Mallory > wrote: > > May I ask what the reasoning of the design of the notifications of the okay > > button of a notification being in the same spot as the decline button of > > another notification that will pop up in front of the first? Especially > > since declined items no longer go to trash? I have lost $1000's of L$ > > because of that and its getting OLD. > > I don't use 2.x very much, but I remember having this problem. > > I see no Jira on this issue. But I may not be searching very well. > > If you make a Jira, and I'd happily give it a vote. I believe this > could be a disastrous problem and cause grief for vendors, especially > those of nocopy products. I'm surprised it hasn't been brought to > attention earlier. > > Stickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/b6daa001/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 07:17:29 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 09:17:29 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> On 2010-09-18, at 20:57, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:53:21 -0500 > Argent Stonecutter wrote: >> On 2010-09-17, at 12:51, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: >>> There aren't tools to assure to an agent him cached texture is still >>> one cached the teleport before... >> Not needed. Textures are static. UUIDs are never re-used. > prims change... you're assuming nobody modify the whole sim... If they change the texture on a prim, the new texture will have a new UUID, so it will be a cache miss. From tateru at taterunino.net Sun Sep 19 07:21:15 2010 From: tateru at taterunino.net (Tateru Nino) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 00:21:15 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> On 20/09/2010 12:17 AM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > On 2010-09-18, at 20:57, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: >> On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:53:21 -0500 >> Argent Stonecutter wrote: >>> On 2010-09-17, at 12:51, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: >>>> There aren't tools to assure to an agent him cached texture is still >>>> one cached the teleport before... >>> Not needed. Textures are static. UUIDs are never re-used. >> prims change... you're assuming nobody modify the whole sim... > If they change the texture on a prim, the new texture will have a new UUID, so it will be a cache miss. > I believe he was referring to the fact that a UUID does not always refer to the same inworld object. There are instances where an object UUID will be used more than once. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 07:39:11 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 10:39:11 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Question about the Too Many Open Files problem Message-ID: I have been pursuing this for awhile. I am wondering if I am the only one experiencing it? Could others with the same problem let me know so that I don't feel so lonely 8-) Problem: - On Mac, open Console and then open the system.log. - Open Viewer2 Dev (any version since Beta). Viewer2 Release does not show this problem for me. - Go to some area where there are a lot of textures (e.g. not a barren wasteland like Brilliant). After a few minutes, the viewer freezes (the mouse pointer becomes the spinner) and errors start appearing in syslog.log about Too Many Files. You can also open a Terminal window and use lsof to see the open files. $ lsof -c Second or you can count them with $ lsof -c Second | wc -l Whenever I get to 235 UDP and TCP connections, I freeze. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/c6ea4a93/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 08:26:09 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 11:26:09 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Anti-aliasing problem Message-ID: There are various complaints about AA not working. Some of them complain it causes an immediate crash (me for example 8-). Is anyone looking at SNOW-198 or VWR-13286, for example? It appears an assertion is failing. Maybe it is not needed or backwards or something (easy fix). User story: When I set AA from Disabled to 2X, my viewer crashes immediately (pop-up about failed assertion, see SNOW-198) and a crash report is sent. I expect it to change the AA settings and not crash. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/c3c47fb7/attachment.htm From leliel.mirihi at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 08:33:06 2010 From: leliel.mirihi at gmail.com (leliel) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 08:33:06 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Question about the Too Many Open Files problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have exactly the same problem, except I'm using linux and my ulimit is 1024. When I have http-textures enabled and I teleport the open files hover around 850-950 with the viewer intermittently running out of file descriptors. This causes about 1/3 of the http connections to time out, presumably waiting for a free file descriptor, after this happens for 30 seconds or so the cache system will get confused and clear the whole cache, often 2 or 3 times per teleport. Eventually the viewer will give up on the textures leaving 1/3 of the world gray. As you might imagine, this makes http-textures completely unusable for me. Occasionally the viewer will run out of file descriptors for too long and crash, I had this happen to me once when some one IM'd me and the viewer couldn't open the log file. From hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 19 09:42:11 2010 From: hitomi.tiponi at yahoo.co.uk (Hitomi Tiponi) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:42:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [opensource-dev] alternative design panels Message-ID: <820468.75871.qm@web23906.mail.ird.yahoo.com> >I hope that some TPV developers provide us with alternatives to kludgily >modified, poorly designed panels for groups, profiles, inventory, etc Try looking at the StarLight skin for the viewer if you want some redesigned profile panels (and lots of other goodies) - details at http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/index.php?title=Viewer_Skins/Starlight. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/de7d27c5/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 09:46:13 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:46:13 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Externally controllable viewers? In-Reply-To: <4C956504.8@gmail.com> References: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> <20100919012339.b5511449.sythos@gmail.com> <4C956504.8@gmail.com> Message-ID: A simple example of alternative input features might be Speech-to-Text for the chat bar and for IMs. This for people for whom typing is hard and spech is easier. Or Text-to-speech for those who have a hard time reading. On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Vex Streeter wrote: > No - avatar motion, gestures, animation from a non-viewer and non-SL > source... probably chat, possibly lookat and touch. Heck, I'd love to > get some of the old "avatar puppetry" stuff involved, but that'll be > overkill for this use. If all I was interested in was control, I'd use > libopenmetaverse, but there will be a real person watching their avatar > interact with SL, just not using traditional controls. > > On 9/18/2010 7:23 PM, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:17:03 -0400 > > Vex Streeter wrote: > > > >> Who's currently working on doing external control of viewer > >> functions, especially avatar control? I know of a few people doing > >> AR sorts of things that would qualify and some of the viewer-plugin > >> and modularity work would certainly help. I'm going to be doing some > >> viewer hacking to allow some additional input devices and would like > >> to be as general as possible (and not reinvent the wheel). > > sorry... do you mean sort of bot for group invite and similar when you > > say "eexternal control"? > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/611f0f35/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 09:49:41 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:49:41 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Anti-aliasing problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI. > Is anyone looking at SNOW-198 or VWR-13286, for example? It appears an > assertion is failing. Maybe it is not needed or backwards or something > (easy fix). > > > So, I looked at the code. The assertion occurs three times in llimagegl.cpp. it sort of looked like the assertions don't do much useful, except cause the abort, so as an experiment I commented them out and built my own version. Now, setting AA does not crash immediately, and so far I see no issues it might be causing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/e78e3d9d/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 10:36:45 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:36:45 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> Message-ID: <5F56B46A-07AF-468A-9110-22690AA9A416@gmail.com> On 2010-09-19, at 09:21, Tateru Nino wrote: > On 20/09/2010 12:17 AM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: >> On 2010-09-18, at 20:57, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: >>> On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:53:21 -0500 >>> Argent Stonecutter wrote: >>>> On 2010-09-17, at 12:51, Altair Sythos Memo wrote: >>>>> There aren't tools to assure to an agent him cached texture is still >>>>> one cached the teleport before... >>>> Not needed. Textures are static. UUIDs are never re-used. >>> prims change... you're assuming nobody modify the whole sim... >> If they change the texture on a prim, the new texture will have a new UUID, so it will be a cache miss. > I believe he was referring to the fact that a UUID does not always refer > to the same inworld object. There are instances where an object UUID > will be used more than once. Please note the emphasized words: "There aren't tools to assure to an agent him CACHED TEXTURE is still one cached the teleport before". From oz at lindenlab.com Sun Sep 19 10:49:27 2010 From: oz at lindenlab.com (Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence)) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:49:27 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> Message-ID: <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> On 2010-09-19 10:21, Tateru Nino wrote: > I believe he was referring to the fact that a UUID does not always refer > to the same inworld object. There are instances where an object UUID > will be used more than once. Those would be bugs, by definition. From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 12:12:49 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:12:49 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > ?On 2010-09-19 10:21, Tateru Nino wrote: >> I believe he was referring to the fact that a UUID does not always refer >> to the same inworld object. There are instances where an object UUID >> will be used more than once. > > > Those would be bugs, by definition. > > True. But there are actually UUID algorithms that accept a very low probability of repeating a UUID. From javajoint at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 12:46:53 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:46:53 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Ponzu wrote: > > True. But there are actually UUID algorithms that accept a very low > probability of repeating a UUID. > LL cant afford to have repeats. It would break a lot. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/UUID -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/abad98c3/attachment.htm From tateru at taterunino.net Sun Sep 19 12:53:59 2010 From: tateru at taterunino.net (Tateru Nino) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 05:53:59 +1000 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C966A57.8090203@taterunino.net> On 20/09/2010 3:49 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > On 2010-09-19 10:21, Tateru Nino wrote: >> I believe he was referring to the fact that a UUID does not always refer >> to the same inworld object. There are instances where an object UUID >> will be used more than once. > > Those would be bugs, by definition. Well, it pretty much happens when a sim is down. When that happens, objects being instantiated in other sims may be given the same UUIDs as objects that are in another sim that is not presently online on the grid. When the sim comes back up, the clash in UUIDs is noted, and new UUIDs are chosen for any conflicts in that sim. It's been around for quite some time, and is a particular pest for someone who wants to refer to a server-object by UUID in - for example - an inworld or outworld script. Common workarounds involve using an external server for the object to register its current UUID to. That's been the case since 2005, but being a server-side issue is probably out-of-scope here. As far as textures go, I believe the way they are handled as assets is different to instantiated objects, and that they do not suffer from the same issue. Of course, if log in to more than one grid, there's no guarantees that a texture with a given UUID in your cache is the same texture that you're supposed to be getting. While the space for texture UUIDs is very large, they're only unique to a specific grid and clashes will inevitably occur over time. -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From kelly at lindenlab.com Sun Sep 19 13:16:25 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:16:25 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <4C966A57.8090203@taterunino.net> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> <4C966A57.8090203@taterunino.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Tateru Nino wrote: > > > On 20/09/2010 3:49 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: > > On 2010-09-19 10:21, Tateru Nino wrote: > >> I believe he was referring to the fact that a UUID does not always refer > >> to the same inworld object. There are instances where an object UUID > >> will be used more than once. > > > > Those would be bugs, by definition. > Well, it pretty much happens when a sim is down. When that happens, > objects being instantiated in other sims may be given the same UUIDs as > objects that are in another sim that is not presently online on the > grid. When the sim comes back up, the clash in UUIDs is noted, and new > UUIDs are chosen for any conflicts in that sim. It's been around for > quite some time, and is a particular pest for someone who wants to refer > to a server-object by UUID in - for example - an inworld or outworld > script. Common workarounds involve using an external server for the > object to register its current UUID to. > > That's been the case since 2005, but being a server-side issue is > probably out-of-scope here. > > As far as textures go, I believe the way they are handled as assets is > different to instantiated objects, and that they do not suffer from the > same issue. Of course, if log in to more than one grid, there's no > guarantees that a texture with a given UUID in your cache is the same > texture that you're supposed to be getting. While the space for texture > UUIDs is very large, they're only unique to a specific grid and clashes > will inevitably occur over time. > > -- > Tateru Nino > http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ > > I'm not sure how what you describe could happen. There is no system in place to detect UUID clashes, especially between different regions/sims, and nothing that notes them and then replaces them. The way you describe it makes it sound like there is a central service that hands out UUIDs as needed and when a region that has been down comes back up it may have UUIDs that have been given out that need to be corrected. That isn't how UUIDs work - each process generates its own UUIDs as needed from an algorithm that attempts to minimize the already slim chance of a collision. * Rezed objects are given a new UUID (though they will still reference the 'original asset id' for some internal tracking server side) * An object that is out in the world could be modified and will retain its same UUID (and local ID) even though the object changes. So it is true that an object cache based purely on UUID could show stale data - this is a unique case for inworld objects only. Not inventory, textures, sounds, gestures, notecards, scripts or even landmarks. All of those will have a unique ID that never changes. * The only way I can think of right now to force a UUID 'collision' is to bring up a duplicate of a region so that the same region is brought up in two places at the same time, including copying all the content. This is something that shouldn't happen, and even if we have to we do have a system to generate new IDs for parcels and content. * If you have more details about UUID collisions happening, let us know. It would definitely be a bug and we would want to look into it. - Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/e448fdde/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 13:16:33 2010 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:16:33 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache References: Message-ID: > On 2010-09-19, at 12:49, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: >> On 2010-09-19 10:21, Tateru Nino wrote: >> >> I believe he was referring to the fact that a UUID does not always refer >> to the same inworld object. There are instances where an object UUID >> will be used more than once. > >> > Those would be bugs, by definition. Perhaps Tateru was referring to the prim data changing (eg, geometry) while the prim UUID stays the same. I don't think the viewer makes any assumptions about prims being unchanged from session to session, so that's not something that would need to be verified in the cache. From vexstreeter at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 13:18:36 2010 From: vexstreeter at gmail.com (Vex Streeter) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:18:36 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Question about the Too Many Open Files problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C96701C.7090109@gmail.com> HTTP textures seems to make an already bad situation worse. A very large number of the open files I see on Linux are fonts: I've seen up to 20 FDs pointing to the same font file - I typically run under linux with a ulimit of 2048 to avoid the issue. I see similar things on Windows (7) but it is neither quite as bad (fewer fonts maybe?) nor happens to hit whatever fd limit windows has. One of the problems with running out of FDs is that the viewer can fail in all sorts of bizarre ways and will often not be able to dump a useful log. On 9/19/2010 11:33 AM, leliel wrote: > I have exactly the same problem, except I'm using linux and my ulimit > is 1024. When I have http-textures enabled and I teleport the open > files hover around 850-950 with the viewer intermittently running out > of file descriptors. This causes about 1/3 of the http connections to > time out, presumably waiting for a free file descriptor, after this > happens for 30 seconds or so the cache system will get confused and > clear the whole cache, often 2 or 3 times per teleport. Eventually the > viewer will give up on the textures leaving 1/3 of the world gray. As > you might imagine, this makes http-textures completely unusable for > me. > > Occasionally the viewer will run out of file descriptors for too long > and crash, I had this happen to me once when some one IM'd me and the > viewer couldn't open the log file. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com Sun Sep 19 13:35:33 2010 From: angel_of_crimson at hotmail.com (Erin Mallory) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:35:33 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Userstory Message-ID: As a User, , I want to be able to easily identify kids, and better land and viewer controls to automatically mute (both text and voice), eject, ban, and send home anyone not age and id verified by DEFAULT. (I'd also like to be able to have my Linden homes be on adult parcels as well!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/5dda289e/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 13:36:03 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:36:03 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] Question about the Too Many Open Files problem In-Reply-To: <4C96701C.7090109@gmail.com> References: <4C96701C.7090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the issue may be with slplugin, though i am not sure yet.. As its starting to be used quite a bit. And every media / external webbased thing loads up a plugin. My Wifes machine at one time had like 23 slplugins running. Who knows how many threads. Ill have to peek atthe code to proove this theory. On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Vex Streeter wrote: > HTTP textures seems to make an already bad situation worse. A very > large number of the open files I see on Linux are fonts: I've seen up > to 20 FDs pointing to the same font file - I typically run under linux > with a ulimit of 2048 to avoid the issue. I see similar things on > Windows (7) but it is neither quite as bad (fewer fonts maybe?) nor > happens to hit whatever fd limit windows has. One of the problems with > running out of FDs is that the viewer can fail in all sorts of bizarre > ways and will often not be able to dump a useful log. > > On 9/19/2010 11:33 AM, leliel wrote: > > I have exactly the same problem, except I'm using linux and my ulimit > > is 1024. When I have http-textures enabled and I teleport the open > > files hover around 850-950 with the viewer intermittently running out > > of file descriptors. This causes about 1/3 of the http connections to > > time out, presumably waiting for a free file descriptor, after this > > happens for 30 seconds or so the cache system will get confused and > > clear the whole cache, often 2 or 3 times per teleport. Eventually the > > viewer will give up on the textures leaving 1/3 of the world gray. As > > you might imagine, this makes http-textures completely unusable for > > me. > > > > Occasionally the viewer will run out of file descriptors for too long > > and crash, I had this happen to me once when some one IM'd me and the > > viewer couldn't open the log file. > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/1dd92c30/attachment-0001.htm From makosoft at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 15:13:16 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 23:13:16 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/19/10, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > Perhaps Tateru was referring to the prim data changing (eg, geometry) while > the prim UUID stays the same. I don't think the viewer makes any assumptions > about prims being unchanged from session to session, so that's not something > that would need to be verified in the cache. Actually, I'm pretty sure it does, at least in viewer versions where caching hasn't accidentally been rendered totally ineffective by a Linden Labs typo. In fact, there's a fairly elaborate system for caching prim data to disk. As I recall, it detects changed prims using the CRC field, which is completely misnamed and is really a generation counter that records the number of changes to the prim. Then there's the CacheID, which invalidates the whole sim's cached data where necessary (e.g. if the sim moves or crashes, or perhaps even if it just restarts at all - would have to ask one of the Lab folks). From sythos at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 15:27:40 2010 From: sythos at gmail.com (Altair Sythos Memo) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 00:27:40 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> <4C966A57.8090203@taterunino.net> Message-ID: <20100920002740.9b5fb31b.sythos@gmail.com> On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:16:25 -0700 Kelly Linden wrote: > * Rezed objects are given a new UUID (though they will still > reference the 'original asset id' for some internal tracking server > side) yes but cache was hinted for etxtures, what happen to same textures copied or shared to others? I have a tex, have its UUID, i give a copy to another, both rezz something and use this textures textures is the same, but 2 UUID... in this way a cache is less usefull (topic started from cache idea) From kelly at lindenlab.com Sun Sep 19 15:30:44 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:30:44 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: <20100920002740.9b5fb31b.sythos@gmail.com> References: <4C924971.2080901@gmail.com> <20100917195129.2ff7a464.sythos@gmail.com> <20100919035705.b470abc3.sythos@gmail.com> <94F7BB77-A823-47B8-B273-AC0614327CD4@gmail.com> <4C961C5B.5010009@taterunino.net> <4C964D27.8070607@lindenlab.com> <4C966A57.8090203@taterunino.net> <20100920002740.9b5fb31b.sythos@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Altair Sythos wrote: > On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:16:25 -0700 > Kelly Linden wrote: > > > > * Rezed objects are given a new UUID (though they will still > > reference the 'original asset id' for some internal tracking server > > side) > > yes but cache was hinted for etxtures, what happen to same textures > copied or shared to others? > > I have a tex, have its UUID, i give a copy to another, both rezz > something and use this textures > > textures is the same, but 2 UUID... > > in this way a cache is less usefull (topic started from cache idea) > Texture Asset UUIDs do not change even when you give the texture to someone else. You will each have an inventory item, each with its own inventory UUID, that points to the same texture Asset UUID. - Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/a89fbb56/attachment.htm From kelly at lindenlab.com Sun Sep 19 15:32:35 2010 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:32:35 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Improved Cache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Aidan Thornton wrote: > On 9/19/10, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > > Perhaps Tateru was referring to the prim data changing (eg, geometry) > while > > the prim UUID stays the same. I don't think the viewer makes any > assumptions > > about prims being unchanged from session to session, so that's not > something > > that would need to be verified in the cache. > > Actually, I'm pretty sure it does, at least in viewer versions where > caching hasn't accidentally been rendered totally ineffective by a Linden > Labs > typo. In fact, there's a fairly elaborate system for caching prim data > to disk. As I recall, it detects changed prims using the CRC field, > which is completely misnamed and is really a generation counter that > records the number of changes to the prim. Then there's the CacheID, > which invalidates the whole sim's cached data where necessary (e.g. if > the sim moves or crashes, or perhaps even if it just restarts at all - > would have to ask one of the Lab folks). > > This is pretty accurate. I think the CacheID only changes if the format of the cache changes, and so should be pretty rare. I'm not 100% sure on that though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/b729bd9c/attachment.htm From dzonatas at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 15:19:17 2010 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 15:19:17 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Externally controllable viewers? In-Reply-To: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> References: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C968C65.9090909@gmail.com> Hi, Have a look at SNOW-375. It sounds like what you want. Also see Icesphere, which uses SNOW-375 to create detach windows and chat. It also supports remote chat sessions to the viewer... for multiple windows or multiple home computers. Vex Streeter wrote: > Who's currently working on doing external control of viewer functions, > especially avatar control? I know of a few people doing AR sorts of > things that would qualify and some of the viewer-plugin and modularity > work would certainly help. I'm going to be doing some viewer hacking to > allow some additional input devices and would like to be as general as > possible (and not reinvent the wheel). > > Many thanks > Vex > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -- --- https://twitter.com/Dzonatas_Sol --- Web Development, Software Engineering, Virtual Reality, Consultant From Kindragon at comcast.net Sun Sep 19 16:48:08 2010 From: Kindragon at comcast.net (Obsidian Kindragon) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 17:48:08 -0600 Subject: [opensource-dev] Userstory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C96A138.9030609@comcast.net> Having a better way to identify in a profile whether it is age verified or not is a good idea, but I don't think the "default" and "automatic" actions requested should be in a viewer. Not all unverified users are kids, and treating them automatically as minors and muting or blocking them is not something I would want in a viewer. Identification tends to work the opposite of what you assume: one tends to use ID to prove you are not a minor, not to prove you are a minor. The ability to ban based on age verified status is already available: set your land to allow access to Age Verified accounts only. You won't need eject if you don't allow such users on the land in the first place. As for setting the ability to automatically ban based on verified status as the default, that's not what I want as a user. Users may get land before they are verified and get automatically banned from their own parcel, or find their friends not able to access the land and need additional assistance to see why their land is automatically set to ban unverified users. I feel that banning settings should always be chosen by the user and the default to not be blocking people from the land, except in the case of Adult regions where it is assumed that only age verified or payment on file status is allowed. Having some Linden Homes available in Adult regions is an idea, and I think Linden Lab may wish to look into that market of users. - Obsidian Stormwind (AKA Obsidian Kindragon) On 9/19/2010 2:35 PM, Erin Mallory wrote: > As a User, , I want to be able to easily identify kids, and better > land and viewer controls to automatically mute (both text and voice), > eject, ban, and send home anyone not age and id verified by DEFAULT. > (I'd also like to be able to have my Linden homes be on adult parcels > as well!) > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100919/83bc5e1e/attachment.htm From vexstreeter at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 18:12:43 2010 From: vexstreeter at gmail.com (Vex Streeter) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 21:12:43 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Externally controllable viewers? In-Reply-To: <4C968C65.9090909@gmail.com> References: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> <4C968C65.9090909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C96B50B.5060706@gmail.com> Awesome! This looks like very much like what I want! Cheers, Vex On 9/19/2010 6:19 PM, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > Hi, > > > Have a look at SNOW-375. It sounds like what you want. > > Also see Icesphere, which uses SNOW-375 to create detach windows and > chat. It also supports remote chat sessions to the viewer... for > multiple windows or multiple home computers. > > > > > Vex Streeter wrote: >> Who's currently working on doing external control of viewer >> functions, especially avatar control? I know of a few people doing >> AR sorts of things that would qualify and some of the viewer-plugin >> and modularity work would certainly help. I'm going to be doing some >> viewer hacking to allow some additional input devices and would like >> to be as general as possible (and not reinvent the wheel). >> >> Many thanks >> Vex >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 18:19:05 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 21:19:05 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Ack. I need a little help. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Never mind, figured out a fix. For some reason, gcc-4.0 was not in my PATH. It is in /Developer/usr/bin, so I added that to my Path. develop.py seems to work now (fingers crossed). On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Lee Sailer wrote: > Trying to set up another hg repository from scratch, I am stuck > here....it seems to be complaining about not being able to find Xcode, > which I am sure is there, in the usual place. > > any ideas welcome. > > > > lee$ python develop.py > setting DISTCC_DIR to /Users/lee/Documents/hg/viewer-development/indra/.distcc > Running 'cmake -G \'Xcode\' -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE:STRING=RELWITHDEBINFO > -DSTANDALONE:BOOL=OFF -DUNATTENDED:BOOL=OFF -DWORD_SIZE:STRING=32 > -DROOT_PROJECT_NAME:STRING=SecondLife OFF "" > \'/Users/lee/Documents/hg/viewer-development/indra\'' in > 'build-darwin-i386' > CMake Error: CMake was unable to find a build program corresponding to > "Xcode". ?CMAKE_MAKE_PROGRAM is not set. ?You probably need to select > a different build tool. > CMake Error: Could not find cmake module > file:/Users/lee/Documents/hg/viewer-development/indra/build-darwin-i386/CMakeFiles/CMakeCCompiler.cmake > CMake Error: Could not find cmake module > file:/Users/lee/Documents/hg/viewer-development/indra/build-darwin-i386/CMakeFiles/CMakeCXXCompiler.cmake > -- Configuring incomplete, errors occurred! > Cleaning 'build-darwin-i386' > Error: the command 'cmake' exited with status 1 > From tofu at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 20 02:39:51 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:39:51 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Looking for a PJIRA entry about build grid UI bug with deferred rendering enabled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C972BE7.2040407@lindenlab.com> Opensource Obscure wrote: > When Deferred Rendering is enabled and you're in > building mode, the RGB arrows that you use to move > prims don't "stop" at the prim surface anymore. > > Deferred Rendering OFF: > http://m.friendfeed-media.com/948b6fc14d7ec63ec01a1f8f253a48869c6cbcd0 > > Deferred Rendering ON: > http://m.friendfeed-media.com/206e6a7e4a14518e27f084d30c9cec0d58873520 > > If I recall correctly, a PJIRA entry already exists > for this bug - but unfortunately I can't find it. > > Can you help me to find it please? I'd like to update it. > > Opensource Obscure I don't think I've run across a pjira for this, but I'd be interested to hear. If it takes too long to find an existing one, please do file a new one, IMHO it's better to have a few dupes than fail to have a bug filed at all. :) Deferred Rendering is a good example of something that LL has no near-term plans to put more work into (AFAIK), so if some people outside LL want to keep it somewhat warm/maintained that'd be great (I love it, but we pretty much have to put our personal time into it to make progress, it's just not on a LL roadmap right now I think). For anyone interested, here's my guess as to why this issue (and a few like it) are happening - deferred rendering uses an off-screen FBO depth buffer for drawing the world, but some of our hud overlays (like the arrow-drawing) assume that they can use immediate-mode drawing to the back-buffer (the next frame we're assembling for display with the world, UI, HUDs and everything) at any point and get correct depth-testing - however, the world depth buffer in the FBO hasn't necessarily been transferred to the back-buffer, even though the rendered color data has. The two optional solutions I see, if this is so, are: 1. (probably fastest, more complicated) - make the tool/hud/overlay routines bind the FBOs that we've done our deferred world rendering to, so they're depth-testing against (and drawing to) the FBOs instead of the depthless back-buffer. 2. (slightly slower, probably much simpler) - copy the FBO depth buffer to the back-buffer's depth-buffer at the same time we copy the color data. -Tofu From tofu at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 20 02:45:10 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:45:10 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Question about the Too Many Open Files problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C972D26.6040602@lindenlab.com> For anyone interested, https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-173 Ponzu wrote: > I have been pursuing this for awhile. I am wondering if I am the only one > experiencing it? Could others with the same problem let me know so that I > don't feel so lonely 8-) > > Problem: > > - On Mac, open Console and then open the system.log. > - Open Viewer2 Dev (any version since Beta). Viewer2 Release does not > show this problem for me. > - Go to some area where there are a lot of textures (e.g. not a barren > wasteland like Brilliant). After a few minutes, the viewer freezes (the > mouse pointer becomes the spinner) and errors start appearing in syslog.log > about Too Many Files. > > > You can also open a Terminal window and use lsof to see the open files. > > $ lsof -c Second > > or you can count them with > > $ lsof -c Second | wc -l > > Whenever I get to 235 UDP and TCP connections, I freeze. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From tofu at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 20 02:49:07 2010 From: tofu at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:49:07 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Anti-aliasing problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C972E13.4000707@lindenlab.com> I've added this info to: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17436 Generally pjira is a better place to note forensics than the mailing list. :) Thanks for digging! Ponzu wrote: > FYI. > > >> Is anyone looking at SNOW-198 or VWR-13286, for example? It appears an >> assertion is failing. Maybe it is not needed or backwards or something >> (easy fix). >> >> >> So, I looked at the code. The assertion occurs three times in > llimagegl.cpp. it sort of looked like the assertions don't do much useful, > except cause the abort, so as an experiment I commented them out and built > my own version. > > Now, setting AA does not crash immediately, and so far I see no issues it > might be causing. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From marinekelley at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 03:47:12 2010 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:47:12 +0200 Subject: [opensource-dev] Frustum on the world map acting up on v2 Message-ID: Hello all, For those who are interested, here is a trivial fix (but not a trivial hunt) to a bug on the world map, that I am surprised nobody has ever written a JIRA on, because it has been there since v2.0 beta. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-23105 Marine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100920/ac56431b/attachment.htm From monty at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 20 08:14:18 2010 From: monty at lindenlab.com (Monty Brandenberg) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:14:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Question about the Too Many Open Files problem In-Reply-To: <4C96701C.7090109@gmail.com> References: <4C96701C.7090109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C977A4A.3060906@lindenlab.com> On 9/19/2010 4:18 PM, Vex Streeter wrote: > HTTP textures seems to make an already bad situation worse. A very > large number of the open files I see on Linux are fonts: I've seen up > to 20 FDs pointing to the same font file - I typically run under linux > with a ulimit of 2048 to avoid the issue. I see similar things on > Windows (7) but it is neither quite as bad (fewer fonts maybe?) nor > happens to hit whatever fd limit windows has. One of the problems with > running out of FDs is that the viewer can fail in all sorts of bizarre > ways and will often not be able to dump a useful log. This might be worth a Jira, at least to start feeding in tracking information. On Linux, I'd expect this to at least generate a strerror() message for ENFILE or EMFILE ('Too many open files in system' and 'Too many open files') with similar messages on Mac. Full 'lsof' output before or after a problem might be interesting, too. Something in Ponzu's Problem has me looking in the direction of plugins as well. But a rigorous test with HTTP Textures enabled and disabled would also be useful... m -- Monty Brandenberg monty at lindenlab.com From monty at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 20 08:16:18 2010 From: monty at lindenlab.com (Monty Brandenberg) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 11:16:18 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Question about the Too Many Open Files problem In-Reply-To: <4C972D26.6040602@lindenlab.com> References: <4C972D26.6040602@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4C977AC2.1080300@lindenlab.com> On 9/20/2010 5:45 AM, Tofu Linden wrote: > For anyone interested, https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-173 Oh, and there's the strerror message. :-) -- Monty Brandenberg monty at lindenlab.com From malachi at tamzap.com Mon Sep 20 16:28:00 2010 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:28:00 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? Message-ID: Is it possible to revert the 2.x UI changes? I mean is it possible to keep the functionality of 2.x yet use the visual style of 1.x? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From aklo at skyhighway.com Mon Sep 20 16:45:16 2010 From: aklo at skyhighway.com (aklo at skyhighway.com) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? Message-ID: <5438cdec860d0826de95115e160836e3.squirrel@cruziomail.cruzio.com> Malachi, what a wonderful question! i know a lot of us would like to have a positive answer to that question. i think right now the status is "almost, sorta". Please do keep me on your list and share any info you get? Thx! - AK From aklo at skyhighway.com Mon Sep 20 16:51:45 2010 From: aklo at skyhighway.com (aklo at skyhighway.com) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? Message-ID: Sorry everyone! i pushed the wrong button and didn't get Malachi's msg quoted. Pls forgive the excess traffic? But i thought i'd better redo my msg or the lack of context would make it (more) nonsensical. Thx! - AK (retransmitting...) Malachi, what a wonderful question! i know a lot of us would like to have a positive answer to that question. i think right now the status is "almost, sorta". Please do keep me on your list and share any info you get? Thx! - AK Is it possible to revert the 2.x UI changes? I mean is it possible to keep the functionality of 2.x yet use the visual style of 1.x? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From kf6kjg at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 17:18:41 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:18:41 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The answer is no. LL is firm on this point. HOWEVER, there are people working to backport 2.x functionality (not UI) to the 1.x codebase, as well as some who are working to put the 1.x UI on the 2.x code. From what I've read of LL's stance on this, see the list logs, these are likely never going to be included in the official LL viewer. However, you might be able to get the patches to do this from those who are developing them, and then release your own TPV. Remember, Snowstorm is a LL team, not a viewer. The viewer the Snowstorm team is working on is the development edition of the main SecondLife viewer. Nothing more, nothing less. Ricky Cron Stardust On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 4:51 PM, wrote: > Sorry everyone! ?i pushed the wrong button and didn't get Malachi's msg > quoted. ?Pls forgive the excess traffic? ?But i thought i'd better redo my > msg or the lack of context would make it (more) nonsensical. > > Thx! > > - AK > > (retransmitting...) > Malachi, > > what a wonderful question! ?i know a lot of us would like to have a > positive answer to that question. ?i think right now the status is > "almost, sorta". ?Please do keep me on your list and share any info you > get? > > Thx! > > - AK > > > Is it possible to revert the 2.x UI changes? I mean is it possible to keep > the functionality of 2.x yet use the visual style of 1.x? > > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe > information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From kf6kjg at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 17:19:54 2010 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:19:54 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See response to Aklo... On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 4:28 PM, malachi wrote: > Is it possible to revert the 2.x UI changes? I mean is it possible to keep > the functionality of 2.x yet use the visual style of 1.x? > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From yoz at lindenlab.com Mon Sep 20 18:30:03 2010 From: yoz at lindenlab.com (Yoz Grahame) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:30:03 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 September 2010 16:28, malachi wrote: > Is it possible to revert the 2.x UI changes? I mean is it possible to keep > the functionality of 2.x yet use the visual style of 1.x? > If you're asking about doing this in your own viewer project based on 2.x, go for it. There are plenty of people who say they want it, and you'd probably get some help. There should be no technical blockers. If you're asking about reverting the design of individual UI elements to the 1.x design in the official Linden Lab viewer, then - as we've discussed several times on this list - we're open to considering and implementing well-argued proposals. We've already done this kind of reversion for several UI elements and there will likely be others. However, we ask that UI change proposals take the time to explore whether there is a third design option better than either existing one. If you're asking about reverting the entire viewer UI to 1.x: in short, no. In less short, we'd need an objective, well-reasoned argument against each and every one of the several hundred UI changes between 1.x and 2.x. See above. We know that the current Viewer 2 UI is not popular amongst a large percentage of residents. It'd be hard to miss that. That's why we're working on fixing it. When people are asked to explain why they don't like it, they focus on a small but high-profile set of these changes, such as the sidebar, and those are the changes we're already planning to work on (if not working already). If you have ideas for how those specific changes should work, we welcome them. If there are other areas you want to fix or revert, and have a good objective argument for them, we welcome those too. -- Yoz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100920/bdbe554a/attachment.htm From miss_c_27 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 21:56:44 2010 From: miss_c_27 at yahoo.com (miss c) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] UI Map Message-ID: <275570.46064.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I am working on a new skin for Viewer 2.XX. I noticed that some of the textures aren't even used and I am having difficulty finding the referencing commands to apply them. Example would be the bottom panel background image, which doesn't appear to be referenced in any of the xmls. Is there a UI map or list of appropriate commands to apply the images? I have made many changes but none seem to take effect. Thank you Miss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100920/c9a1695e/attachment.htm From dana.virtual at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 05:11:15 2010 From: dana.virtual at gmail.com (Dana Moore) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 08:11:15 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Externally controllable viewers? In-Reply-To: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> References: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> Message-ID: ditto an interest here. Specifically what we are interested in doing is capturing a human user's motion via a cam and turning a set of those into avatar controls (e.g., move left/right/forward, fly, sit). Any useful inputs or comments would help get us on track. thanks ElectricSheep Expedition On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Vex Streeter wrote: > Who's currently working on doing external control of viewer functions, > especially avatar control? I know of a few people doing AR sorts of > things that would qualify and some of the viewer-plugin and modularity > work would certainly help. I'm going to be doing some viewer hacking to > allow some additional input devices and would like to be as general as > possible (and not reinvent the wheel). > > Many thanks > Vex > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Dana "Criticize by creating." ? Michelangelo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/2ed6390e/attachment.htm From miss_c_27 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 07:56:41 2010 From: miss_c_27 at yahoo.com (miss c) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 07:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] UI Map In-Reply-To: <275570.46064.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <275570.46064.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <858180.97587.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I noticed that when I go into the debug menu on the login page to access the UI tools, under the widget option there is a link to view widget lists, but it takes me to wiki.lindenlab.com which is password protected. Would be so nice to have access to those lists. TY Miss ________________________________ From: miss c To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 11:56:44 PM Subject: [opensource-dev] UI Map Hello, I am working on a new skin for Viewer 2.XX. I noticed that some of the textures aren't even used and I am having difficulty finding the referencing commands to apply them. Example would be the bottom panel background image, which doesn't appear to be referenced in any of the xmls. Is there a UI map or list of appropriate commands to apply the images? I have made many changes but none seem to take effect. Thank you Miss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/01d565b4/attachment-0001.htm From zha.ewry at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 08:48:38 2010 From: zha.ewry at gmail.com (Zha Ewry) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:48:38 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Inventory Sorting Message-ID: As a user I want to be able to sort my inventory with tools which embody familiar metaphors from Windows, Mac and Linux file browsers. I expect a folder system which exposes attributes in a familiar fashion and permits sorting of those attributes in a consistent fashion. I expect folders to be sorted by date as well as their contents. I expect to be able to leverage my experience as a computer user and find common metaphors such as sorting columns implemented in the inventory sorter. I expect to be able to create deeply nested folder structures and easily find things based on most recently added, most recently modified, I expect a consistent approach to displaying nested material throughout the viewer. I expect to be able to select which details are exposed in an inventory view, and I expect column sorting implemented in a familiar fashion. ~ Zha Ewry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/59b730f8/attachment.htm From zha.ewry at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 09:10:52 2010 From: zha.ewry at gmail.com (Zha Ewry) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:10:52 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] A comment on work in progress with 2.1.2 Message-ID: The ability to tear off tabs into windows in the newest drops is a major bit of progress. The lack of a simple "x" to close open floaters is huge problem. Forcing people to close things by dock, minimize, means adding a very disruptive click, move mouse, click again work flow to the simple task of making something go away. The inverse is also true. It really ought to be possible to get a floater up without having to take it off the sidebar again and again. Roughly speaking, if you're doing a system with window floaters, you ought to match the last 20 years of learned practice. People expect familiar user interface elements to behave in familiar ways. When you give them odd variants on expected patterns which don't stem from a very clear and obviously better user workflow, you create a dissonant experience. Lastly, any user workflow which requires mouse clocks and mouse motions, prevents accessibility and requires people to switch input modes. Again, 20 years of user interface evolution should be paid some heed. ~ Zha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/ea56a21f/attachment.htm From miss_c_27 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 09:16:55 2010 From: miss_c_27 at yahoo.com (miss c) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Inventory Sorting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480362.35787.qm@web82103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Zha, I might be able to accomplish some of these requests within the skin UI. The UI for 2.xx is so amazing, I am so thrilled to be digging into it after working in the 1.XX UI, bleh. It would be a lot more helpful to us all if you had a list of specific suggestions, rather than burying requests in vague expectations. I understand your frustration, going from Microsoft based terminology to Adobe terminology a few years ago was quite a task for me. At this point though, the viewer terminology seems quite self explanitory to me with my current knowledge, can you please point out specific terminology which may be confusing to the average user? TY Miss ________________________________ From: Zha Ewry To: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:48:38 AM Subject: [opensource-dev] User Story: Inventory Sorting As a user I want to be able to sort my inventory with tools which embody familiar metaphors from Windows, Mac and Linux file browsers. I expect a folder system which exposes attributes in a familiar fashion and permits sorting of those attributes in a consistent fashion. I expect folders to be sorted by date as well as their contents. I expect to be able to leverage my experience as a computer user and find common metaphors such as sorting columns implemented in the inventory sorter. I expect to be able to create deeply nested folder structures and easily find things based on most recently added, most recently modified, I expect a consistent approach to displaying nested material throughout the viewer. I expect to be able to select which details are exposed in an inventory view, and I expect column sorting implemented in a familiar fashion. ~ Zha Ewry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/6970b28a/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 09:29:40 2010 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:29:40 -0500 Subject: [opensource-dev] A comment on work in progress with 2.1.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The issue is that the floaters never close it is a.design flaw with the sidebar On Sep 21, 2010 11:11 AM, "Zha Ewry" wrote: The ability to tear off tabs into windows in the newest drops is a major bit of progress. The lack of a simple "x" to close open floaters is huge problem. Forcing people to close things by dock, minimize, means adding a very disruptive click, move mouse, click again work flow to the simple task of making something go away. The inverse is also true. It really ought to be possible to get a floater up without having to take it off the sidebar again and again. Roughly speaking, if you're doing a system with window floaters, you ought to match the last 20 years of learned practice. People expect familiar user interface elements to behave in familiar ways. When you give them odd variants on expected patterns which don't stem from a very clear and obviously better user workflow, you create a dissonant experience. Lastly, any user workflow which requires mouse clocks and mouse motions, prevents accessibility and requires people to switch input modes. Again, 20 years of user interface evolution should be paid some heed. ~ Zha _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/bcfd0aa5/attachment.htm From esbee at lindenlab.com Tue Sep 21 09:46:45 2010 From: esbee at lindenlab.com (Sarah (Esbee) Hutchinson) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:46:45 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] UI Map In-Reply-To: <858180.97587.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <275570.46064.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <858180.97587.qm@web82106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good catch, Miss C! I'm seeing this in both the release and development Viewers. I talked to Q and he doesn't see any reason we can't make that page publicly accessible so I'll create a version of it on the public wiki and we'll change the reference on that floater as well. You can track the ticket here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-201 Best, Esbee On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:56 AM, miss c wrote: > I noticed that when I go into the debug menu on the login page to access > the UI tools, under the widget option there is a link to view widget lists, > but it takes me to wiki.lindenlab.com which is password protected. Would > be so nice to have access to those lists. > > TY > > Miss > > ------------------------------ > *From:* miss c > *To:* opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com > *Sent:* Mon, September 20, 2010 11:56:44 PM > *Subject:* [opensource-dev] UI Map > > Hello, > > I am working on a new skin for Viewer 2.XX. I noticed that some of the > textures aren't even used and I am having difficulty finding the referencing > commands to apply them. Example would be the bottom panel background image, > which doesn't appear to be referenced in any of the xmls. Is there a UI map > or list of appropriate commands to apply the images? I have made many > changes but none seem to take effect. > > Thank you > Miss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/29d13877/attachment.htm From gigstaggart at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 10:39:26 2010 From: gigstaggart at gmail.com (Gigs) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:39:26 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C98EDCE.40900@gmail.com> On 09/20/2010 09:30 PM, Yoz Grahame wrote: > If you're asking about reverting the entire viewer UI to 1.x: in short, > no. In less short, we'd need an objective, well-reasoned argument > against each and every one of the several hundred UI changes between 1.x > and 2.x. See above. Why would the burden be that way? Linden Lab changed the status quo, they should be the ones justifying their new design, not the other way around. From javajoint at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 11:03:01 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:03:01 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Externally controllable viewers? In-Reply-To: References: <4C95486F.2060602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Dana Moore wrote: > ditto an interest here. > Specifically what we are interested in doing is capturing a human user's > motion via a cam and turning a set of those into avatar controls (e.g., move > left/right/forward, fly, sit). Any useful inputs or comments would help get > us on track. > thanks > ElectricSheep Expedition > Am not sure if you could do this in realtime with one camera (without some sort of wearable tags) Here is my tweet from yesterday about a Siggraph paper on animation based on video keyframes/points: 3d #animation from 2d clips. http://bit.ly/9l5VPP - Their #Siggraphpaper: http://bit.ly Mapping this back to SL, this would open a lot of possibilties up for animators. Oh... and an iPhone 4 or new iPod touch might be a good input device!! I just remembered that they now have a built in gyroscrope. There is certainly the API in iOS to send out a realtime stream of user movements... That would get you something you can intrepret as walking, running, turning, sitting, flying... > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Vex Streeter wrote: > >> Who's currently working on doing external control of viewer functions, >> especially avatar control? I know of a few people doing AR sorts of >> things that would qualify and some of the viewer-plugin and modularity >> work would certainly help. I'm going to be doing some viewer hacking to >> allow some additional input devices and would like to be as general as >> possible (and not reinvent the wheel). >> >> Many thanks >> Vex >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > > -- > Dana > "Criticize by creating." ? Michelangelo > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/4d9a8739/attachment-0001.htm From Celierra at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 11:16:06 2010 From: Celierra at gmail.com (Celierra Darling) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:16:06 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: <4C98EDCE.40900@gmail.com> References: <4C98EDCE.40900@gmail.com> Message-ID: From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Tue Sep 21 11:25:43 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:25:43 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> Yoz Grahame wrote: > When people are asked to explain why they don't > like it, they focus on a small but high-profile set of these changes, That is quite disingenuous. People usually start by saying the complete 2.x UI is terrible and they prefer the 1.x UI. Then Lindens ask about specifics, and the litany starts, of course, with "a small but high-profile set of these changes." There are some really horrible UI decisions that almost everyone picks first, but that is not to say there there is actually anything good among the rest of the the UI changes. Small changes cannot fix the 2.x UI. You really have only two reasonable choices: revert the look and feel back to 1.x or make the UI completely customizable. Anything else is just delusion and wasted effort. Mike From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 11:29:54 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:29:54 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Openjpeg/KDU the cold hard metrics Message-ID: Hi everyone I have been doing some direct comparison between KDU and Openjpeg and have some metrics to share with the rest of you (in case you have not seen them already flying around on #opensl/ or AWG chat) https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AiSrUP47_VxIdFY4Mi1VUkdnaXJsSVpldGRPZXoxc3c&hl=en#gid=0 The tests were done in a test harness using the LLImage class from the viewer. 296 Typical SL textures which were complete were used, Each texture was decoded to discard level 0 (fully) and the timing was only done for the call to decode(). This was repeated 10 times to average out some CPU load jitter and the results entered on to the spreadsheet. I did some variations on openjpeg 1.3 with builds on VC2005 and 2008 and some different SSE and optimisation settings, I also did a test with the Openjpeg V2 code from SVN, although I had to remove 5 textures from the test to prevent this from crashing. The SSE results are interesting, my CPU is an AMD Athlon II X4 64 bit quad core but with 2005 and 2008 SSE2 slows down the decode process,and 2008 also does a better optimisation job than 2005. I'm still not 100% sure why the build of openjpeg supplied by imprudence is better than my builds on 2005. I've also not done any tests on linux, but the basic pattern of KDU being way faster than openjpeg 1.X and 2.X being faster than 1.X i do not expect to change much, the only thing that might change is ups and downs for various optimisations and extra CPU instructions such as SSE behaving differently under gcc. Openjpeg 2 is really looking like its made a massive improvement in its speed, but currently its very unstable, as I said it crashes with 5 of my test textures (which appear to be perfectly normal RGBA textures of common dimensions). Its also crashing with encode for bakes and as far as i know it has issues/is not complete to handle truncated streams either, all of which make usage in SL right this moment not possible. I think openjpeg 2 is where opensource effort should be directed as its not _that_ far behind KDU for raw decode speed (compared to OJP 1.X) currently and yes I know the new KDU can use multiple cores, but so what, we can run multiple decode threads, its nots if we are decoding a GB image so that extra boost is probably not that significant for the type of SL usage. So this brings us to the state of Openjpeg 2.0, Now i know Dzontaz and Callum have done quite a bit with Openjpeg of various versions in the past, if either of them are watching do they have any insites to the current state of OJP 2.0 for SL usage (or does anyone else), as very little has happened in Openjpeg svn for a long while now I fear if we want this to work we may have to fix it and supply the patches upstream ourselves. I believe at one point Dzontas was using OJP 2 for download but OJP 1 for upload when testing it. Regards Robin From makosoft at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 11:44:36 2010 From: makosoft at gmail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:44:36 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Openjpeg/KDU the cold hard metrics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/21/10, Robin Cornelius wrote: > I'm still not 100% sure why the build of openjpeg supplied by imprudence > is better than my builds on 2005. Imprudence is using the openjpeg SVN trunk version from a few months ago, which is essentially a pre-release version of openjpeg 1.4 and is slightly more optimised than 1.3. You might want to try openjpeg from SVN yourself (the trunk version, not the 2.0 branch). Make sure to try it with SSE enabled too - it has some SSE-specific optimisations. From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 11:49:17 2010 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:49:17 +0100 Subject: [opensource-dev] Openjpeg/KDU the cold hard metrics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Aidan Thornton wrote: > On 9/21/10, Robin Cornelius wrote: >> I'm still not 100% sure why the build of openjpeg supplied by imprudence >> is better than my builds on 2005. > > Imprudence is using the openjpeg SVN trunk version from a few months > ago, which is essentially a pre-release version of openjpeg 1.4 and is > slightly more optimised than 1.3. I built off revision 635 from trunk and tried with no SSE/SSE1 and SSE2 as per my results, SSE1 on 2008 gives the best effect, SSE2 is a disaster all around on my setup. Robin From javajoint at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 11:51:44 2010 From: javajoint at gmail.com (Daniel Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:51:44 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Mike Monkowski wrote: > > Small changes cannot fix the 2.x UI. You really have only two > reasonable choices: revert the look and feel back to 1.x or make the UI > completely customizable. > +1 for customization. Yoz has shown a more levelheaded approach to the UI problem than Oz Linden. Both are under LL corporate constraints, to be sure. I see 5 streams of development, going forward: * 1.x TPVs that cherry pick the best bits of V2 features * 2.x TPVs that cherry pick the best bits of V2 features, and in some cases, offer patches to go back into the official 2.x stream * 2.x LL viewer, where developers decide they can work with the process and constraints of LL * exploratory work at developing a viewer with Unity as a foundation * everything else (Ajax, iPhone, Android, etc) I dont think 5 streams are sustainable, but that is where we seem to be at the moment. A customizable UI would do much to circle the 1.x and 2.x development effort wagons. -- Daniel Smith - Sonoma County, California http://daniel.org/resume -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/348f85bd/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 12:07:37 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:07:37 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: Just a gentle reminder. This is NOT a forum for debating the merits of this or that Viewer. This is the forum for discussing Viewer 2 development. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/0d5a0453/attachment.htm From akanevsky at productengine.com Tue Sep 21 12:13:50 2010 From: akanevsky at productengine.com (Anya Kanevsky) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:13:50 -0700 Subject: [opensource-dev] A comment on work in progress with 2.1.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Currently I use the re-dock as a close. The downside being, of course, that you cannot then reopen the floater in the same position. Hold tight - this is just one step on the way to customization heaven :) 2010/9/21 Brandon Husbands > The issue is that the floaters never close it is a.design flaw with the > sidebar > > On Sep 21, 2010 11:11 AM, "Zha Ewry" wrote: > > The ability to tear off tabs into windows in the newest drops is a major > bit of progress. The lack of a simple "x" to close open floaters is huge > problem. Forcing people to close things by dock, minimize, means adding a > very disruptive click, move mouse, click again work flow to the > simple task of making something go away. The inverse is also true. It > really ought to be possible to get a floater up without having to take it > off > the sidebar again and again. Roughly speaking, if you're doing a system > with window floaters, you ought to match the last 20 years of learned > practice. People expect familiar user interface elements to behave in > familiar ways. When you give them odd variants on expected patterns which > don't stem from a very clear and obviously better user workflow, you create > a dissonant experience. Lastly, any user workflow which requires mouse > clocks and mouse motions, prevents accessibility and requires people to > switch input modes. Again, 20 years of user interface evolution should be > paid some heed. > > ~ Zha > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/d19f85d1/attachment.htm From lee.ponzu at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 12:15:39 2010 From: lee.ponzu at gmail.com (Ponzu) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:15:39 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: References: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Daniel Smith wrote: > > > > +1 for customization. > > An effort to merge the 1.x and 2.x UI into a viewer with a highly customizable interface might be fun. At some point, I could even see the Lindens being officially tasked with that effort. For right now, it is unlikely to be the Lindens who lead that way. Could you break the Viewer into two parts, the innards and then UI. Sort of a model-view-controller approach? Make the View a separate process perhaps, that talks to the controller-model? That might be useful to people who want SL on their iPhone 8-) Sounds really hard to me, plus the extra layer of abstraction will contribute to lag. (Imagine a graphics engine that creates a movie file, and then streams that to your phone). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/97e25586/attachment.htm From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Tue Sep 21 12:18:13 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:18:13 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: References: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <4C9904F5.4050901@fishkill.ibm.com> Ponzu wrote: > Just a gentle reminder. This is NOT a forum for debating the merits of > this or that Viewer. > > This is the forum for discussing Viewer 2 development. But it IS a forum for debating the merits of this or that feature of any viewer (SL based or otherwise) or any possible feature. Did I miss the announcement when this forum became limited to simply agreeing with Linden pronouncements? Mike From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Tue Sep 21 12:40:47 2010 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:40:47 -0400 Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: References: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <4C990A3F.5030709@fishkill.ibm.com> I don't know what a model-view-controller approach is, but if you say it adds an extra layer of abstraction, then it doesn't matter anyway. The UI is defined in XML and so is called XUI. Admiral Admiral and I wrote some patches that, among other things, let you instantiate a floater from XML on the fly so that you could edit XML and reload immediately to see the effect of your changes. See VWR-10924. Unfortunately the 2.x changes stomped all over the code affected by the patches and made it incompatible. 1.x was starting to implement callback functions that could be referenced by name rather than hardcoded as part of the floater initialization routine. That was a good step toward being customizable. I think there were some people in Linden Lab that may have been headed in that direction. It's not "really hard." It's just a matter of priorities. Mike Ponzu wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Daniel Smith > wrote: > > > > > +1 for customization. > > An effort to merge the 1.x and 2.x UI into a viewer with a highly > customizable interface might be fun. At some point, I could even see > the Lindens being officially tasked with that effort. For right now, it > is unlikely to be the Lindens who lead that way. > > Could you break the Viewer into two parts, the innards and then UI. > Sort of a model-view-controller approach? Make the View a separate > process perhaps, that talks to the controller-model? That might be > useful to people who want SL on their iPhone 8-) > > Sounds really hard to me, plus the extra layer of abstraction will > contribute to lag. (Imagine a graphics engine that creates a movie > file, and then streams that to your phone). > From miss_c_27 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 14:05:26 2010 From: miss_c_27 at yahoo.com (miss c) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? In-Reply-To: <4C990A3F.5030709@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <4C98F8A7.8070705@fishkill.ibm.com> <4C990A3F.5030709@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <248163.52411.qm@web82103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The point is people do not like change. I love the new UI and to assist people with making that change I have been working today on making the UI look similar to the old one. Such a coincidence this was brought up. Its going to be the same color scheme with a few shiny upgrades to make it look more state of the art. See link... http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4113/5012955294_3f0d0de19b_b.jpg Miss ________________________________ From: Mike Monkowski To: Ponzu Cc: opensource-dev at lists.secondlife.com Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 2:40:47 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Possibility to revert UI changes on snowstorm? I don't know what a model-view-controller approach is, but if you say it adds an extra layer of abstraction, then it doesn't matter anyway. The UI is defined in XML and so is called XUI. Admiral Admiral and I wrote some patches that, among other things, let you instantiate a floater from XML on the fly so that you could edit XML and reload immediately to see the effect of your changes. See VWR-10924. Unfortunately the 2.x changes stomped all over the code affected by the patches and made it incompatible. 1.x was starting to implement callback functions that could be referenced by name rather than hardcoded as part of the floater initialization routine. That was a good step toward being customizable. I think there were some people in Linden Lab that may have been headed in that direction. It's not "really hard." It's just a matter of priorities. Mike Ponzu wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Daniel Smith > wrote: > > > > > +1 for customization. > > An effort to merge the 1.x and 2.x UI into a viewer with a highly > customizable interface might be fun. At some point, I could even see > the Lindens being officially tasked with that effort. For right now, it > is unlikely to be the Lindens who lead that way. > > Could you break the Viewer into two parts, the innards and then UI. > Sort of a model-view-controller approach? Make the View a separate > process perhaps, that talks to the controller-model? That might be > useful to people who want SL on their iPhone 8-) > > Sounds really hard to me, plus the extra layer of abstraction will > contribute to lag. (Imagine a graphics engine that creates a movie > file, and then streams that to your phone). > _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/attachments/20100921/8d2a6127/attachment-0001.htm From miss_c_27 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 14:05:26 2010 From: miss_c_27 at yahoo.com (miss c) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [opensource-dev] Possibility to rev