From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Feb 1 09:53:22 2009 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 1 09:53:27 2009 Subject: [sldev] Current progress on cross-compiling (i.e not much) Message-ID: <4ebfc1100902010953r3cc50824r1d069811332d0da1@mail.gmail.com> http://sprunge.us/DeMT This is my current progress - for some reason it still insists on using ccache and I can't figure out how to make it use the cross-compiler Man SCons was nicer -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From lenglish5 at cox.net Sun Feb 1 10:24:31 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Sun Feb 1 10:24:33 2009 Subject: [sldev] DirectX - feasible to replace? In-Reply-To: <21DA9236-E8F6-4C72-BA7F-3F3B9D057536@gmail.com> References: <4ebfc1100901310836p29d25826x11709bd612f2c41a@mail.gmail.com> <49848A7F.2040602@online.de> <4ebfc1100901311059k5aad107didd3c39f03eaf4cda@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100901311217m299b8e30veaf5b8e5c99230a1@mail.gmail.com> <21DA9236-E8F6-4C72-BA7F-3F3B9D057536@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4985E8DF.3040202@cox.net> Argent Stonecutter wrote: > On 2009-01-31, at 14:17, Gareth Nelson wrote: >> Removing DirectX from the include paths is precisely what i'm doing - >> by not adding it in the first place. Since i'm trying to get a decent >> cross-compile environment up and running for linux-hosted compiles i'm >> starting off with only the mingw32 includes and mesa includes. > > Oh, that would be so nice. Developing under Visual Studio or XCode is > so frustrating when you're used to a reliable and documentable command > line environment. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > Thought you could drop into the command line with xcode... Lawson From lenglish5 at cox.net Sun Feb 1 10:28:00 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Sun Feb 1 10:28:03 2009 Subject: [sldev] DirectX - feasible to replace? In-Reply-To: <4985E8DF.3040202@cox.net> References: <4ebfc1100901310836p29d25826x11709bd612f2c41a@mail.gmail.com> <49848A7F.2040602@online.de> <4ebfc1100901311059k5aad107didd3c39f03eaf4cda@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100901311217m299b8e30veaf5b8e5c99230a1@mail.gmail.com> <21DA9236-E8F6-4C72-BA7F-3F3B9D057536@gmail.com> <4985E8DF.3040202@cox.net> Message-ID: <4985E9B0.6020608@cox.net> Lawson English wrote: > Argent Stonecutter wrote: >> On 2009-01-31, at 14:17, Gareth Nelson wrote: >>> Removing DirectX from the include paths is precisely what i'm doing - >>> by not adding it in the first place. Since i'm trying to get a decent >>> cross-compile environment up and running for linux-hosted compiles i'm >>> starting off with only the mingw32 includes and mesa includes. >> >> Oh, that would be so nice. Developing under Visual Studio or XCode is >> so frustrating when you're used to a reliable and documentable >> command line environment. >> >> > Thought you could drop into the command line with xcode... Don't know if xcode goes far enough, but here's a man page to get you started: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/xcodebuild.1.html L From soft at lindenlab.com Sun Feb 1 12:47:01 2009 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Soft) Date: Sun Feb 1 12:47:03 2009 Subject: [sldev] DirectX - feasible to replace? In-Reply-To: <4985E8DF.3040202@cox.net> References: <4ebfc1100901310836p29d25826x11709bd612f2c41a@mail.gmail.com> <49848A7F.2040602@online.de> <4ebfc1100901311059k5aad107didd3c39f03eaf4cda@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100901311217m299b8e30veaf5b8e5c99230a1@mail.gmail.com> <21DA9236-E8F6-4C72-BA7F-3F3B9D057536@gmail.com> <4985E8DF.3040202@cox.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Lawson English wrote: > Argent Stonecutter wrote: >> >> On 2009-01-31, at 14:17, Gareth Nelson wrote: >>> >>> Removing DirectX from the include paths is precisely what i'm doing - >>> by not adding it in the first place. Since i'm trying to get a decent >>> cross-compile environment up and running for linux-hosted compiles i'm >>> starting off with only the mingw32 includes and mesa includes. >> >> Oh, that would be so nice. Developing under Visual Studio or XCode is so >> frustrating when you're used to a reliable and documentable command line >> environment. >> > Thought you could drop into the command line with xcode... One can use XCode 100% from the command line. It basically replaces make in this use. All the GUI tools have command line equivalents -- except for the class charting and browsing tools and the GUI designer, of course. Within the Xcode IDE, one can also flip back and forth between the GUI and using gdb directly. This is handy if somebody is more comfortable with gdb, or if they have fancy macros/scripts/extensions that can't be exposed through the GUI. Reliability is another thing. I crash the IDE to the desktop a couple times a week myself. I've basically learned to never double-click *anything* in the IDE when debugging. From dmahalko at gmail.com Sun Feb 1 17:25:19 2009 From: dmahalko at gmail.com (Dale Mahalko) Date: Sun Feb 1 17:25:21 2009 Subject: [sldev] Super Bowl 3D glasses... used with SL? Message-ID: If you live in the United States, you've probably seen these sheets of 3D glasses being distributed in supermarkets as part of some "SoBe" Super Bowl 3D advertising gimmick. I am wondering how these would work for stereo anaglyph viewing with Second Life. It would be an easy way for people to start experimenting with inworld depth perception, what with literally millions of these glasses floating around right now. Meanwhile these glasses are very likely to become very useless in just the next few hours when the Big Game is over, so might as well find a secondary application for them before they hit the trash.. For some odd reason these appear to be yellow/blue 3D glasses, rather than the usual red/blue. I don't know what the advantages or disadvantages are for using yellow over red as an anaglyph color, or if the SL stereo viewer can set to do Y/B rather than R/B anaglyph. Just raising this for discussion.. :-) - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090201/8b66053b/attachment.htm From Celierra at gmail.com Sun Feb 1 22:44:28 2009 From: Celierra at gmail.com (Celierra Darling) Date: Sun Feb 1 22:44:30 2009 Subject: [sldev] Super Bowl 3D glasses... used with SL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This seems to be called "ColorCode 3-D" and they claim a patent on it (6687003) that seems rather...comprehensive. I won't claim to be very knowledgeable on patents, so I won't try to guess the ramifications of it on trying to get SL working with the glasses. Celierra On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > If you live in the United States, you've probably seen these sheets of 3D > glasses being distributed in supermarkets as part of some "SoBe" Super Bowl > 3D advertising gimmick. > > I am wondering how these would work for stereo anaglyph viewing with Second > Life. It would be an easy way for people to start experimenting with inworld > depth perception, what with literally millions of these glasses floating > around right now. > > Meanwhile these glasses are very likely to become very useless in just the > next few hours when the Big Game is over, so might as well find a secondary > application for them before they hit the trash.. > > For some odd reason these appear to be yellow/blue 3D glasses, rather than > the usual red/blue. > > I don't know what the advantages or disadvantages are for using yellow over > red as an anaglyph color, or if the SL stereo viewer can set to do Y/B > rather than R/B anaglyph. > > Just raising this for discussion.. :-) > > - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From chaosstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 00:15:35 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Mon Feb 2 00:16:09 2009 Subject: [sldev] DirectX - feasible to replace? In-Reply-To: References: <4ebfc1100901310836p29d25826x11709bd612f2c41a@mail.gmail.com> <49848A7F.2040602@online.de> <4ebfc1100901311059k5aad107didd3c39f03eaf4cda@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100901311217m299b8e30veaf5b8e5c99230a1@mail.gmail.com> <21DA9236-E8F6-4C72-BA7F-3F3B9D057536@gmail.com> <4985E8DF.3040202@cox.net> Message-ID: <9bb32d430902020015k40872cd5wdfb1575ab5d321fd@mail.gmail.com> >From the experimentations of a friend with the viewer I can say that, yes, DirectX only handles the vram detection and joystick handling in the viewer. Of course the latter could be a big deal, as I suppose the Space Navigator ties directly into that. Removal of the DirectX dependency is easy enough tho. The results of it? needs more testing I guess. Given that Intel has opensourced their graphics drivers for linux, which relies on OpenGL for the most part, detection of their chipsets should actually by now be easier to do that it once was. An interesting notion would be to collect some experiences from the Linux viewer users. Given that that one doesn't use the DirectX SDK for hardware detection, have there been certain cases where the Linux viewer failed to detect hardware properly, with negative results other than a simple 'can't detect X' message? What kind of input API gets used in the Linux viewer for joysticks by the way? On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 21:47, Soft wrote: > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Lawson English wrote: >> Argent Stonecutter wrote: >>> >>> On 2009-01-31, at 14:17, Gareth Nelson wrote: >>>> >>>> Removing DirectX from the include paths is precisely what i'm doing - >>>> by not adding it in the first place. Since i'm trying to get a decent >>>> cross-compile environment up and running for linux-hosted compiles i'm >>>> starting off with only the mingw32 includes and mesa includes. >>> >>> Oh, that would be so nice. Developing under Visual Studio or XCode is so >>> frustrating when you're used to a reliable and documentable command line >>> environment. >>> >> Thought you could drop into the command line with xcode... > > One can use XCode 100% from the command line. It basically replaces > make in this use. All the GUI tools have command line equivalents -- > except for the class charting and browsing tools and the GUI designer, > of course. > > Within the Xcode IDE, one can also flip back and forth between the GUI > and using gdb directly. This is handy if somebody is more comfortable > with gdb, or if they have fancy macros/scripts/extensions that can't > be exposed through the GUI. > > Reliability is another thing. I crash the IDE to the desktop a couple > times a week myself. I've basically learned to never double-click > *anything* in the IDE when debugging. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From izzee at hotmail.co.uk Mon Feb 2 05:02:38 2009 From: izzee at hotmail.co.uk (izze euler) Date: Mon Feb 2 05:03:07 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? Message-ID: Hi, Is it possible to change the shortcut target parameters in the SL source code or using Inno Setup when creating an installer? I would like to add a parameter such as "-multiple" to the shortcut target, so that I do not have to add it manually every time I create a shortcut. Does anyone know how I can do this? Thanks _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Messenger just got better .Video display pics, contact updates & more. http://www.download.live.com/messenger -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/4d351f98/attachment.htm From lear.cale at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 06:37:43 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Mon Feb 2 06:37:47 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a simple solution. Make a copy of the shortcut, change it's name to whatever you want. Add the -multiple option to that shortcut. Next time you install the SL client, it'll clobber the standard shortcut, but it'll leave your modified one alone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/0c82750f/attachment.htm From trent.mavendorf at googlemail.com Mon Feb 2 06:56:08 2009 From: trent.mavendorf at googlemail.com (Trent Mavendorf) Date: Mon Feb 2 06:56:13 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what Lear Cale suggested - or you could force it by gSavedSettings.setBOOL("AllowMultipleViewers", TRUE); in llappviewer.cpp (didnt test it though) 2009/2/2 izze euler > Hi, > > Is it possible to change the shortcut target parameters in the SL source > code or using Inno Setup when creating an installer? > > I would like to add a parameter such as "-multiple" to the shortcut target, > so that I do not have to add it manually every time I create a shortcut. > Does anyone know how I can do this? > > Thanks > > ------------------------------ > Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free Try it Now! > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/aab3f935/attachment.htm From wdemauro at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 07:40:29 2009 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Mon Feb 2 07:40:38 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Loss? We Don't Have No Stinking Loss -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For over a month when I log on my inventory is a crap shoot ... it floats between 1k and 5k short of what it should be. Finally had enough and spent the required 4+ hours in live chat, "yes I'll clear cache" "yes I'll go someplace quiet" "oh no problems with my network connection- that's so good to know" then I'm told to take everything off and clear cache again and relog ... ok .. ok so I put everything I'm wearing, huds hair jewelry shirt shoes etc into a new folder in a "clothing emergency" folder ... god damn don't you know it disappeared!!!!! honest to god - huds hair jewelry all gone - not an effing trace..... wait, there is a trace- three live help people can "see" the missing items but can't do a bloody thing!!! OK! live chat has run out of stuff they can do so it's on to a support ticket, go into great detail what has been covered, include the 4+ hours of chat (bulk of it was having me relog all over creation) wait the 48 hours and get a form email extolling the virtues of clearing cache and relogging in a quiet area. One odd thing- a $50 usd sexgen bed unit that disappeared over a year ago came back- so much for that round of live help back then that "couldn't see it" (don't judge me) Forget memory leaks and stability issues ... inventory volatility - isn't it about time for dynamic shadows? From nik at terminaldischarge.net Mon Feb 2 08:07:25 2009 From: nik at terminaldischarge.net (Nik Radford) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:07:49 2009 Subject: [sldev] Super Bowl 3D glasses... used with SL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49871A3D.9050200@terminaldischarge.net> Usually its Red and Cyan to make up the 3 color components (Red = Red, Cyan = Blue + Green) Yellow and Blue would also make up the 3 colour components (Yellow = Red + Green, Blue = Blue) When the stereo image is split one side will be one lense colour and the other side the other (as you know) but when wearing the glasses the colours mix back together to be seen as the original colour of the unsplit image. I doubt there is really an advantage of one over the other, but it would be interesting to see if there was some difference on how the brain would interpert it. Celierra Darling wrote: > This seems to be called "ColorCode 3-D" and they claim a patent on it > (6687003) that seems rather...comprehensive. I won't claim to be very > knowledgeable on patents, so I won't try to guess the ramifications of > it on trying to get SL working with the glasses. > > Celierra > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > >> If you live in the United States, you've probably seen these sheets of 3D >> glasses being distributed in supermarkets as part of some "SoBe" Super Bowl >> 3D advertising gimmick. >> >> I am wondering how these would work for stereo anaglyph viewing with Second >> Life. It would be an easy way for people to start experimenting with inworld >> depth perception, what with literally millions of these glasses floating >> around right now. >> >> Meanwhile these glasses are very likely to become very useless in just the >> next few hours when the Big Game is over, so might as well find a secondary >> application for them before they hit the trash.. >> >> For some odd reason these appear to be yellow/blue 3D glasses, rather than >> the usual red/blue. >> >> I don't know what the advantages or disadvantages are for using yellow over >> red as an anaglyph color, or if the SL stereo viewer can set to do Y/B >> rather than R/B anaglyph. >> >> Just raising this for discussion.. :-) >> >> - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/7bb782ae/attachment.htm From nik at terminaldischarge.net Mon Feb 2 08:08:59 2009 From: nik at terminaldischarge.net (Nik Radford) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:09:22 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! Message-ID: <49871A9B.5070408@terminaldischarge.net> (As I seem to be failing miserably and sending this to the list, I'll apologize to Will for him now having this in his inbox 3 times) Most of the time, inventory loss isn't due to the items disappearing, but the items never getting loaded into your inventory by the client. Large inventory sizes suffer most from this problem I do believe. Sometimes item's will be in your inventory and other times they won't. Time to clear down your inventory me thinks. Then clear you cache! the reason they ask you to clear your cache, is so it forces your client to re-download data rather than using data it's already gathered on your hard-drive. As for Dynamic Shadows, I believe that's still only one lindens pet project is it not? I haven't been able to find an RC or FirstLook viewer that contains the shadows. Moaning about a single linden working on Dynamic Shadows is like moaning about me working on my website in my lunch break at work! Jesubs people. Will wrote: > Loss? We Don't Have No Stinking Loss > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For over a month when I log on my inventory is a crap shoot ... it > floats between 1k and 5k short of what it should be. Finally had > enough and spent the required 4+ hours in live chat, "yes I'll clear > cache" "yes I'll go someplace quiet" "oh no problems with my network > connection- that's so good to know" then I'm told to take everything > off and clear cache again and relog ... ok .. ok so I put everything > I'm wearing, huds hair jewelry shirt shoes etc into a new folder in a > "clothing emergency" folder ... god damn don't you know it > disappeared!!!!! honest to god - huds hair jewelry all gone - not an > effing trace..... wait, there is a trace- three live help people can > "see" the missing items but can't do a bloody thing!!! > > OK! live chat has run out of stuff they can do so it's on to a support > ticket, go into great detail what has been covered, include the 4+ > hours of chat (bulk of it was having me relog all over creation) wait > the 48 hours and get a form email extolling the virtues of clearing > cache and relogging in a quiet area. > > One odd thing- a $50 usd sexgen bed unit that disappeared over a year > ago came back- so much for that round of live help back then that > "couldn't see it" (don't judge me) > > Forget memory leaks and stability issues ... inventory volatility - > isn't it about time for dynamic shadows? > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/fc308d63/attachment.htm From lear.cale at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 08:09:23 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:09:29 2009 Subject: [sldev] Re: building from src: Can't find settings_files.xml In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any ideas on why this is happening (can't find linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml)? Thanks! On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Lear Cale wrote: > I'm building from source, latest available release (1.21), having trouble, > using MSVS 2005 Express. > > The instructions don't say how to build the target using MSVS 2005 Express, > so I guessed: use File -> Open Project/solution, navigate to > "linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj > linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj", open that, select RelWithDebInfo, > and build. > > Ran into the llkdu.dll problem. Pulled one from my viewer, for now. I > find two different "solutions" for this problem in the wiki but they're > inaccurate or out of date. > > Solution built. Wen to run it; and MSVS doesn't know what the executable > file is. I figure it must be > "\linden\indra\build-VC80\newview\relwithdebinfo\secondlife-bin.exe" and try > that. > > It can't find fmod.dll. I find that and copy it into the same directory as > the exe file. > > Now when I run the viewer (from MSVS) I get an error from the viewer. It > can't find linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml > > Has anyone actually built and run this thing using MSVS 2005 Express? > > I'm an experienced software engineer, but I work on Unix development > systems, for embedded software. I'm a newb to MSVS. > > Oh: two places that list dependencies for DXSDK and MS Server SDK > conflict. One says to use latest versions, the other says to use earlier > ones. Which is correct? I'm using latest. My guess is this has nothing to > do with my problems, but it would be nice to resolve this contradiction. > > Thanks > Lear > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/728c2da1/attachment.htm From wdemauro at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 08:13:36 2009 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:17:06 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: <49871910.8050201@terminaldischarge.net> References: <49871910.8050201@terminaldischarge.net> Message-ID: <1004BE474C084C62927D9039C15798B3@XPS720Main> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ! Print Screen035.bmp Type: image/bmp Size: 3764024 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/9f8c7e89/PrintScreen035-0001.bin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ! Print Screen034.bmp Type: image/bmp Size: 452888 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/9f8c7e89/PrintScreen034-0001.bin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ! Print Screen036.bmp Type: image/bmp Size: 386280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/9f8c7e89/PrintScreen036-0001.bin From nik at terminaldischarge.net Mon Feb 2 08:16:02 2009 From: nik at terminaldischarge.net (Nik Radford) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:18:13 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: References: <8c14f8954cac95ddc86b0b9a4d214b07.squirrel@webmail.terminaldischarge.net> Message-ID: <49871C42.9040204@terminaldischarge.net> Lol, Honestly, I don't know what the healthy number for inventory is, as no-one has ever announced one. However I have noticed that those who complain about inventory loss are those with (in my opinion) a very large inventory. The dynamic shadows branch has also been around for about 6 months! So yes the linden in question could of been very busy in his lunch hour, or on his free time at home. He perhaps loves writing shaders and graphics code and thus finds it fun and so devotes alot of his spare time to the shadow experiment! And as far as I'm aware. Shadows haven't even been announced for the main branch, or that they are ever going to make it into the main client at all. It's just one linden having a bit of fun seeing what he could do. Will wrote: > oops looks like someone has been busy on their lunch hour ...btw pick > a healthy number for amount of inventory and then keep it a secret .... > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "Will" > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 10:55 AM > Subject: Re: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! > > >> Most of the time, inventory loss isn't due to the items disappearing, >> but >> the items never getting loaded into your inventory by the client. Large >> inventory sizes suffer most from this problem I do believe. Sometimes >> item's will be in your inventory and other times they won't. >> >> Time to clear down your inventory me thinks. Then clear you cache! >> >> the reason they ask you to clear your cache, is so it forces your client >> to re-download data rather than using data it's already gathered on your >> hard-drive. >> >> As for Dynamic Shadows, I believe that's still only one lindens pet >> project is it not? I haven't been able to find an RC or FirstLook viewer >> that contains the shadows. Moaning about a single linden working on >> Dynamic Shadows is like moaning about me working on my website in my >> lunch >> break at work! >> >> Jesubs people. >> >>> Loss? We Don't Have No Stinking Loss >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> For over a month when I log on my inventory is a crap shoot ... it >>> floats >>> between 1k and 5k short of what it should be. Finally had enough and >>> spent >>> the required 4+ hours in live chat, "yes I'll clear cache" "yes I'll go >>> someplace quiet" "oh no problems with my network connection- that's so >>> good >>> to know" then I'm told to take everything off and clear cache again and >>> relog ... ok .. ok so I put everything I'm wearing, huds hair jewelry >>> shirt >>> shoes etc into a new folder in a "clothing emergency" folder ... god >>> damn >>> don't you know it disappeared!!!!! honest to god - huds hair jewelry >>> all >>> gone - not an effing trace..... wait, there is a trace- three live help >>> people can "see" the missing items but can't do a bloody thing!!! >>> >>> OK! live chat has run out of stuff they can do so it's on to a support >>> ticket, go into great detail what has been covered, include the 4+ >>> hours >>> of >>> chat (bulk of it was having me relog all over creation) wait the 48 >>> hours >>> and get a form email extolling the virtues of clearing cache and >>> relogging >>> in a quiet area. >>> >>> One odd thing- a $50 usd sexgen bed unit that disappeared over a >>> year ago >>> came back- so much for that round of live help back then that "couldn't >>> see >>> it" (don't judge me) >>> >>> Forget memory leaks and stability issues ... inventory volatility - >>> isn't >>> it >>> about time for dynamic shadows? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type multipart/related From chaosstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 08:21:56 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:22:01 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: <49871C42.9040204@terminaldischarge.net> References: <8c14f8954cac95ddc86b0b9a4d214b07.squirrel@webmail.terminaldischarge.net> <49871C42.9040204@terminaldischarge.net> Message-ID: <9bb32d430902020821mb07dceai3b4159f7195266e6@mail.gmail.com> The shadow branch has recently been merged into main-render-11. As for healthy inventory sizes, I have a 12k inventory, and haven't had any issues in over a year. I know it can strike anytime from what I heard, but it's just my experience. On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 17:16, Nik Radford wrote: > Lol, > > Honestly, I don't know what the healthy number for inventory is, as no-one > has ever announced one. However I have noticed that those who complain about > inventory loss are those with (in my opinion) a very large inventory. > > The dynamic shadows branch has also been around for about 6 months! So yes > the linden in question could of been very busy in his lunch hour, or on his > free time at home. He perhaps loves writing shaders and graphics code and > thus finds it fun and so devotes alot of his spare time to the shadow > experiment! > > And as far as I'm aware. Shadows haven't even been announced for the main > branch, or that they are ever going to make it into the main client at all. > It's just one linden having a bit of fun seeing what he could do. > > Will wrote: > > oops looks like someone has been busy on their lunch hour ...btw pick a > healthy number for amount of inventory and then keep it a secret .... > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "Will" > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 10:55 AM > Subject: Re: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! > > > Most of the time, inventory loss isn't due to the items disappearing, but > the items never getting loaded into your inventory by the client. Large > inventory sizes suffer most from this problem I do believe. Sometimes > item's will be in your inventory and other times they won't. > > Time to clear down your inventory me thinks. Then clear you cache! > > the reason they ask you to clear your cache, is so it forces your client > to re-download data rather than using data it's already gathered on your > hard-drive. > > As for Dynamic Shadows, I believe that's still only one lindens pet > project is it not? I haven't been able to find an RC or FirstLook viewer > that contains the shadows. Moaning about a single linden working on > Dynamic Shadows is like moaning about me working on my website in my lunch > break at work! > > Jesubs people. > > Loss? We Don't Have No Stinking Loss > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For over a month when I log on my inventory is a crap shoot ... it floats > between 1k and 5k short of what it should be. Finally had enough and spent > the required 4+ hours in live chat, "yes I'll clear cache" "yes I'll go > someplace quiet" "oh no problems with my network connection- that's so > good > to know" then I'm told to take everything off and clear cache again and > relog ... ok .. ok so I put everything I'm wearing, huds hair jewelry > shirt > shoes etc into a new folder in a "clothing emergency" folder ... god damn > don't you know it disappeared!!!!! honest to god - huds hair jewelry all > gone - not an effing trace..... wait, there is a trace- three live help > people can "see" the missing items but can't do a bloody thing!!! > > OK! live chat has run out of stuff they can do so it's on to a support > ticket, go into great detail what has been covered, include the 4+ hours > of > chat (bulk of it was having me relog all over creation) wait the 48 hours > and get a form email extolling the virtues of clearing cache and relogging > in a quiet area. > > One odd thing- a $50 usd sexgen bed unit that disappeared over a year ago > came back- so much for that round of live help back then that "couldn't > see > it" (don't judge me) > > Forget memory leaks and stability issues ... inventory volatility - isn't > it > about time for dynamic shadows? > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > > > ________________________________ > > ________________________________ > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From chaosstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 08:23:41 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:23:44 2009 Subject: [sldev] Re: building from src: Can't find settings_files.xml In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bb32d430902020823t33b823c0y8da31fa07062dba5@mail.gmail.com> Lear: When trying to start the client from the MSVC, do these steps first: Right click the secondlife-bin project, and set it as the startup project. Then go into the project properties, and set \indra\build-VC80\release\ (or debug, or relwithdeb) as the working directory. then try again. Basically the working directory is set to \indra\build-VC80\, which is wrong. On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 17:09, Lear Cale wrote: > Any ideas on why this is happening (can't find > linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml)? > > Thanks! > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Lear Cale wrote: >> >> I'm building from source, latest available release (1.21), having trouble, >> using MSVS 2005 Express. >> >> The instructions don't say how to build the target using MSVS 2005 >> Express, so I guessed: use File -> Open Project/solution, navigate to >> "linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj >> linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj", open that, select RelWithDebInfo, >> and build. >> >> Ran into the llkdu.dll problem. Pulled one from my viewer, for now. I >> find two different "solutions" for this problem in the wiki but they're >> inaccurate or out of date. >> >> Solution built. Wen to run it; and MSVS doesn't know what the executable >> file is. I figure it must be >> "\linden\indra\build-VC80\newview\relwithdebinfo\secondlife-bin.exe" and try >> that. >> >> It can't find fmod.dll. I find that and copy it into the same directory >> as the exe file. >> >> Now when I run the viewer (from MSVS) I get an error from the viewer. It >> can't find linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml >> >> Has anyone actually built and run this thing using MSVS 2005 Express? >> >> I'm an experienced software engineer, but I work on Unix development >> systems, for embedded software. I'm a newb to MSVS. >> >> Oh: two places that list dependencies for DXSDK and MS Server SDK >> conflict. One says to use latest versions, the other says to use earlier >> ones. Which is correct? I'm using latest. My guess is this has nothing to >> do with my problems, but it would be nice to resolve this contradiction. >> >> Thanks >> Lear >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From nik at terminaldischarge.net Mon Feb 2 08:25:16 2009 From: nik at terminaldischarge.net (Nik Radford) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:25:40 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: <9bb32d430902020821mb07dceai3b4159f7195266e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c14f8954cac95ddc86b0b9a4d214b07.squirrel@webmail.terminaldischarge.net> <49871C42.9040204@terminaldischarge.net> <9bb32d430902020821mb07dceai3b4159f7195266e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49871E6C.1040803@terminaldischarge.net> Ah, then I'm a little out of touch :P I couldn't find any mention on it, so I assumed it hadn't made it anywhere and was still where it was a while ago. Ambrosia wrote: > The shadow branch has recently been merged into main-render-11. > > As for healthy inventory sizes, I have a 12k inventory, and haven't > had any issues in over a year. > I know it can strike anytime from what I heard, but it's just my experience. > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 17:16, Nik Radford wrote: > >> Lol, >> >> Honestly, I don't know what the healthy number for inventory is, as no-one >> has ever announced one. However I have noticed that those who complain about >> inventory loss are those with (in my opinion) a very large inventory. >> >> The dynamic shadows branch has also been around for about 6 months! So yes >> the linden in question could of been very busy in his lunch hour, or on his >> free time at home. He perhaps loves writing shaders and graphics code and >> thus finds it fun and so devotes alot of his spare time to the shadow >> experiment! >> >> And as far as I'm aware. Shadows haven't even been announced for the main >> branch, or that they are ever going to make it into the main client at all. >> It's just one linden having a bit of fun seeing what he could do. >> >> Will wrote: >> >> oops looks like someone has been busy on their lunch hour ...btw pick a >> healthy number for amount of inventory and then keep it a secret .... >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: "Will" >> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 10:55 AM >> Subject: Re: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! >> >> >> Most of the time, inventory loss isn't due to the items disappearing, but >> the items never getting loaded into your inventory by the client. Large >> inventory sizes suffer most from this problem I do believe. Sometimes >> item's will be in your inventory and other times they won't. >> >> Time to clear down your inventory me thinks. Then clear you cache! >> >> the reason they ask you to clear your cache, is so it forces your client >> to re-download data rather than using data it's already gathered on your >> hard-drive. >> >> As for Dynamic Shadows, I believe that's still only one lindens pet >> project is it not? I haven't been able to find an RC or FirstLook viewer >> that contains the shadows. Moaning about a single linden working on >> Dynamic Shadows is like moaning about me working on my website in my lunch >> break at work! >> >> Jesubs people. >> >> Loss? We Don't Have No Stinking Loss >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For over a month when I log on my inventory is a crap shoot ... it floats >> between 1k and 5k short of what it should be. Finally had enough and spent >> the required 4+ hours in live chat, "yes I'll clear cache" "yes I'll go >> someplace quiet" "oh no problems with my network connection- that's so >> good >> to know" then I'm told to take everything off and clear cache again and >> relog ... ok .. ok so I put everything I'm wearing, huds hair jewelry >> shirt >> shoes etc into a new folder in a "clothing emergency" folder ... god damn >> don't you know it disappeared!!!!! honest to god - huds hair jewelry all >> gone - not an effing trace..... wait, there is a trace- three live help >> people can "see" the missing items but can't do a bloody thing!!! >> >> OK! live chat has run out of stuff they can do so it's on to a support >> ticket, go into great detail what has been covered, include the 4+ hours >> of >> chat (bulk of it was having me relog all over creation) wait the 48 hours >> and get a form email extolling the virtues of clearing cache and relogging >> in a quiet area. >> >> One odd thing- a $50 usd sexgen bed unit that disappeared over a year ago >> came back- so much for that round of live help back then that "couldn't >> see >> it" (don't judge me) >> >> Forget memory leaks and stability issues ... inventory volatility - isn't >> it >> about time for dynamic shadows? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> ________________________________ >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/bc20eea6/attachment.htm From tateru.nino at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 08:51:53 2009 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:52:15 2009 Subject: [sldev] Super Bowl 3D glasses... used with SL? In-Reply-To: <49871A3D.9050200@terminaldischarge.net> References: <49871A3D.9050200@terminaldischarge.net> Message-ID: <1233593513.4336.1.camel@atom> Red/Green color-blindness is one of the most common types, and more people have it generally than are aware of it. Yellow/Blue (I am led to understand) works better for those people. On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 16:07 +0000, Nik Radford wrote: > Usually its Red and Cyan to make up the 3 color components (Red = Red, > Cyan = Blue + Green) > > Yellow and Blue would also make up the 3 colour components (Yellow = > Red + Green, Blue = Blue) > > When the stereo image is split one side will be one lense colour and > the other side the other (as you know) but when wearing the glasses > the colours mix back together to be seen as the original colour of the > unsplit image. I doubt there is really an advantage of one over the > other, but it would be interesting to see if there was some difference > on how the brain would interpert it. > > > Celierra Darling wrote: > > This seems to be called "ColorCode 3-D" and they claim a patent on it > > (6687003) that seems rather...comprehensive. I won't claim to be very > > knowledgeable on patents, so I won't try to guess the ramifications of > > it on trying to get SL working with the glasses. > > > > Celierra > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > > > > > If you live in the United States, you've probably seen these sheets of 3D > > > glasses being distributed in supermarkets as part of some "SoBe" Super Bowl > > > 3D advertising gimmick. > > > > > > I am wondering how these would work for stereo anaglyph viewing with Second > > > Life. It would be an easy way for people to start experimenting with inworld > > > depth perception, what with literally millions of these glasses floating > > > around right now. > > > > > > Meanwhile these glasses are very likely to become very useless in just the > > > next few hours when the Big Game is over, so might as well find a secondary > > > application for them before they hit the trash.. > > > > > > For some odd reason these appear to be yellow/blue 3D glasses, rather than > > > the usual red/blue. > > > > > > I don't know what the advantages or disadvantages are for using yellow over > > > red as an anaglyph color, or if the SL stereo viewer can set to do Y/B > > > rather than R/B anaglyph. > > > > > > Just raising this for discussion.. :-) > > > > > > - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > > privileges > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From lear.cale at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 09:21:10 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Mon Feb 2 09:21:13 2009 Subject: [sldev] Re: building from src: Can't find settings_files.xml In-Reply-To: <9bb32d430902020823t33b823c0y8da31fa07062dba5@mail.gmail.com> References: <9bb32d430902020823t33b823c0y8da31fa07062dba5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Ambrosia :) ALL_BUILD was the default project. I changed it to secondlife-bin. In properties for secondlife-bin, I don't see "working directory". For "Configuration Properties -> General", I see Output Directory (set to "RelWithDebInfo") and Intermediate Directory (set to "secondife-bin/RelWithDebInfo). Is that what you meant? I get the same error, running this way. Also, with 'secondlife-bin' selected as the default project, when I "build solution", it builds nothing (skipping ALL_BUILD). Thanks again, Jeff On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Ambrosia wrote: > Lear: > > When trying to start the client from the MSVC, do these steps first: > > Right click the secondlife-bin project, and set it as the startup project. > Then go into the project properties, and set > \indra\build-VC80\release\ (or debug, or relwithdeb) as the working > directory. > > then try again. Basically the working directory is set to > \indra\build-VC80\, which is wrong. > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 17:09, Lear Cale wrote: > > Any ideas on why this is happening (can't find > > linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml)? > > > > Thanks! > > > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Lear Cale wrote: > >> > >> I'm building from source, latest available release (1.21), having > trouble, > >> using MSVS 2005 Express. > >> > >> The instructions don't say how to build the target using MSVS 2005 > >> Express, so I guessed: use File -> Open Project/solution, navigate to > >> "linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj > >> linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj", open that, select > RelWithDebInfo, > >> and build. > >> > >> Ran into the llkdu.dll problem. Pulled one from my viewer, for now. I > >> find two different "solutions" for this problem in the wiki but they're > >> inaccurate or out of date. > >> > >> Solution built. Wen to run it; and MSVS doesn't know what the > executable > >> file is. I figure it must be > >> "\linden\indra\build-VC80\newview\relwithdebinfo\secondlife-bin.exe" and > try > >> that. > >> > >> It can't find fmod.dll. I find that and copy it into the same directory > >> as the exe file. > >> > >> Now when I run the viewer (from MSVS) I get an error from the viewer. > It > >> can't find linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml > >> > >> Has anyone actually built and run this thing using MSVS 2005 Express? > >> > >> I'm an experienced software engineer, but I work on Unix development > >> systems, for embedded software. I'm a newb to MSVS. > >> > >> Oh: two places that list dependencies for DXSDK and MS Server SDK > >> conflict. One says to use latest versions, the other says to use > earlier > >> ones. Which is correct? I'm using latest. My guess is this has > nothing to > >> do with my problems, but it would be nice to resolve this contradiction. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Lear > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/3306424c/attachment.htm From lear.cale at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 09:51:31 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Mon Feb 2 09:52:00 2009 Subject: [sldev] Re: building from src: Can't find settings_files.xml In-Reply-To: References: <9bb32d430902020823t33b823c0y8da31fa07062dba5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: BTW, the only place I see this file is at ./linden/indra/newview/app_settings/settings_files.xml Not in any build directory. On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Lear Cale wrote: > Thanks, Ambrosia :) > > ALL_BUILD was the default project. I changed it to secondlife-bin. > > In properties for secondlife-bin, I don't see "working directory". > For "Configuration Properties -> General", I see > Output Directory (set to "RelWithDebInfo") and Intermediate Directory > (set to "secondife-bin/RelWithDebInfo). Is that what you meant? > > I get the same error, running this way. > > Also, with 'secondlife-bin' selected as the default project, when I > "build solution", it builds nothing (skipping ALL_BUILD). > > Thanks again, > Jeff > > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Ambrosia wrote: > >> Lear: >> >> When trying to start the client from the MSVC, do these steps first: >> >> Right click the secondlife-bin project, and set it as the startup project. >> Then go into the project properties, and set >> \indra\build-VC80\release\ (or debug, or relwithdeb) as the working >> directory. >> >> then try again. Basically the working directory is set to >> \indra\build-VC80\, which is wrong. >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 17:09, Lear Cale wrote: >> > Any ideas on why this is happening (can't find >> > linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml)? >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Lear Cale wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm building from source, latest available release (1.21), having >> trouble, >> >> using MSVS 2005 Express. >> >> >> >> The instructions don't say how to build the target using MSVS 2005 >> >> Express, so I guessed: use File -> Open Project/solution, navigate to >> >> "linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj >> >> linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj", open that, select >> RelWithDebInfo, >> >> and build. >> >> >> >> Ran into the llkdu.dll problem. Pulled one from my viewer, for now. I >> >> find two different "solutions" for this problem in the wiki but they're >> >> inaccurate or out of date. >> >> >> >> Solution built. Wen to run it; and MSVS doesn't know what the >> executable >> >> file is. I figure it must be >> >> "\linden\indra\build-VC80\newview\relwithdebinfo\secondlife-bin.exe" >> and try >> >> that. >> >> >> >> It can't find fmod.dll. I find that and copy it into the same >> directory >> >> as the exe file. >> >> >> >> Now when I run the viewer (from MSVS) I get an error from the viewer. >> It >> >> can't find linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml >> >> >> >> Has anyone actually built and run this thing using MSVS 2005 Express? >> >> >> >> I'm an experienced software engineer, but I work on Unix development >> >> systems, for embedded software. I'm a newb to MSVS. >> >> >> >> Oh: two places that list dependencies for DXSDK and MS Server SDK >> >> conflict. One says to use latest versions, the other says to use >> earlier >> >> ones. Which is correct? I'm using latest. My guess is this has >> nothing to >> >> do with my problems, but it would be nice to resolve this >> contradiction. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Lear >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> > privileges >> > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/f89bc286/attachment.htm From dharrissmith at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 12:02:39 2009 From: dharrissmith at gmail.com (David Smith) Date: Mon Feb 2 12:03:28 2009 Subject: [sldev] novice question Message-ID: <7174a0d0902021202g7c055e18u379a95d88d2a43af@mail.gmail.com> Hi Folks, I am new to programming and attempting to do my first SL viewer build on Mac OS X. I am following the instructions on the page 'Compiling the viewer' at: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Mac_OS_X) I need a clearer description for the proper file directory set-up. I have downloaded the source code, libraries, artwork, and FMod. Basically, I need to know what goes where. thanks, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/36d44bd2/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Mon Feb 2 12:39:41 2009 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Mon Feb 2 12:44:33 2009 Subject: [sldev] novice question In-Reply-To: <7174a0d0902021202g7c055e18u379a95d88d2a43af@mail.gmail.com> References: <7174a0d0902021202g7c055e18u379a95d88d2a43af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ebfc1100902021239x4d0a7517r95e7d30e647e109c@mail.gmail.com> Extract all the archives in one place (they all use a directory structure with linden/ as the root) then forget FMOD if possible and use OpenAL instead On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 8:02 PM, David Smith wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am new to programming and attempting to do my first SL viewer build on Mac > OS X. I am following the instructions on the page 'Compiling the viewer' at: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Mac_OS_X) > I need a clearer description for the proper file directory set-up. I have > downloaded the source code, libraries, artwork, and FMod. Basically, I need > to know what goes where. > > thanks, > David > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 12:49:07 2009 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Mon Feb 2 12:49:22 2009 Subject: [sldev] novice question In-Reply-To: <7174a0d0902021202g7c055e18u379a95d88d2a43af@mail.gmail.com> References: <7174a0d0902021202g7c055e18u379a95d88d2a43af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49875C43.5000603@gmail.com> David Smith wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am new to programming and attempting to do my first SL viewer build on > Mac OS X. I am following the instructions on the page 'Compiling the > viewer' at: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Mac_OS_X) > > I need a clearer description for the proper file directory set-up. I > have downloaded the source code, libraries, artwork, and FMod. > Basically, I need to know what goes where. > > Well the 3 zip/tarballs just get unpacked on top of each other, they all contain a linden/ base folder and these all should be overlayed. Fmod needs to be handled differently still. The dynlib needs to be placed in linden/libraries/darwin?/Release/ and Debug/ and the fmod.h in linden/libraries/darwin?/Include ... where "darwin?" is the name of the arch folder that will get created (but i'm not 100% sure what) AFTER first running develop.py, a little confusing yes i know. There is a JIRA patch that allows develop.py to accept an external location for fmod so that this last stage of dancing the files around is not necessary. So i guess you need to run develop.py configure, let the libs download add the fmod.h and dynlib to the other libs and run it again to ensure fmod is used for a sound system. After that if you have cmake and python on your system you should be able to just go to linden/indra and run the python script develop.py with the configure option and it will start to download the rest of the lib deps you need or shout about what is wrong. Hope that helps and has not just confused you more ;-p Robin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 260 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/94cc1f06/signature.pgp From aimee.trescothick at googlemail.com Mon Feb 2 16:53:15 2009 From: aimee.trescothick at googlemail.com (Aimee Trescothick) Date: Mon Feb 2 16:53:20 2009 Subject: [sldev] novice question In-Reply-To: <49875C43.5000603@gmail.com> References: <7174a0d0902021202g7c055e18u379a95d88d2a43af@mail.gmail.com> <49875C43.5000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <40431EFA-F20E-4FEC-BF07-A716C00FF04D@gmail.com> I've just updated (finally :) the wiki instructions for the Mac with how to install the Fmod libs as a universal binary. Aimee. On 2 Feb 2009, at 20:49, Robin Cornelius wrote: > David Smith wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> >> I am new to programming and attempting to do my first SL viewer >> build on >> Mac OS X. I am following the instructions on the page 'Compiling the >> viewer' at: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(Mac_OS_X) >> >> I need a clearer description for the proper file directory set-up. I >> have downloaded the source code, libraries, artwork, and FMod. >> Basically, I need to know what goes where. >> >> > > Well the 3 zip/tarballs just get unpacked on top of each other, they > all > contain a linden/ base folder and these all should be overlayed. > > Fmod needs to be handled differently still. The dynlib needs to be > placed in linden/libraries/darwin?/Release/ and Debug/ and the > fmod.h in > linden/libraries/darwin?/Include ... where "darwin?" is the name of > the > arch folder that will get created (but i'm not 100% sure what) AFTER > first running develop.py, a little confusing yes i know. There is a > JIRA > patch that allows develop.py to accept an external location for fmod > so > that this last stage of dancing the files around is not necessary. > So i > guess you need to run develop.py configure, let the libs download add > the fmod.h and dynlib to the other libs and run it again to ensure > fmod > is used for a sound system. From stickman at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 20:11:13 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Mon Feb 2 20:11:16 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: <9bb32d430902020821mb07dceai3b4159f7195266e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c14f8954cac95ddc86b0b9a4d214b07.squirrel@webmail.terminaldischarge.net> <49871C42.9040204@terminaldischarge.net> <9bb32d430902020821mb07dceai3b4159f7195266e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > As for healthy inventory sizes, I have a 12k inventory, and haven't > had any issues in over a year. > I know it can strike anytime from what I heard, but it's just my experience. There's a good idea. I'm sure we can find out what a happy inventory size is if everyone says how big theirs is. Unless of course the answer doesn't make sense -- then we'll know that inventory size may not actually be a factor. 16k-ish for a few months now. I actually a lot of stuff I could toss. It was as high as 32k for a few months, too. The only inventory issues I've experienced is copy/pasting the contents of a folder into a new one. Almost always, one of the 20ish items will magically not show up and I have to relog to fix it. I took to copying into a folder I didn't intend to continue using, so I could use the original folder that still had everything visible. -Stickman From kf6kjg at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 23:07:17 2009 From: kf6kjg at gmail.com (Ricky) Date: Mon Feb 2 23:07:20 2009 Subject: [sldev] GCC version requirements? Message-ID: <3bb9647e0902022307p6dda792ci6d65ad5a521c8b71@mail.gmail.com> Has the GCC version requirements suddenly changed, or did I mis-tweak my system? I am now, after updating a few things, including uninstalling/installing some non-SL related programs, getting an error in my compile: linden/libraries/x86_64-linux/lib_release_client/libstdc++.so: undefined reference to `_Unwind_GetIPInfo@GCC_4.2.0' It looks like libstdc++ is trying to reference the 4.2.0 edition of GCC... The question is, can anyone else on x86_64, preferably Gentoo based, compile revision 1746? My gcc version is 4.1.2 20070214, which is the latest version of gcc marked as stable by the maintainers of the Gentoo Portage package system. Ricky aka Cron Stardust -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090202/e5ee066f/attachment.htm From chaosstar at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 00:19:27 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Tue Feb 3 00:19:31 2009 Subject: [sldev] Re: building from src: Can't find settings_files.xml In-Reply-To: References: <9bb32d430902020823t33b823c0y8da31fa07062dba5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9bb32d430902030019v2af0726cjdddf6d949a3c50be@mail.gmail.com> Yes, sorry for that :> /linden/indra/newview/ is the correct working directory. I wasn't at my own PC so couldn't doublecheck. On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 18:51, Lear Cale wrote: > BTW, the only place I see this file is at > > ./linden/indra/newview/app_settings/settings_files.xml > > Not in any build directory. > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Lear Cale wrote: >> >> Thanks, Ambrosia :) >> >> ALL_BUILD was the default project. I changed it to secondlife-bin. >> >> In properties for secondlife-bin, I don't see "working directory". >> For "Configuration Properties -> General", I see >> Output Directory (set to "RelWithDebInfo") and Intermediate Directory >> (set to "secondife-bin/RelWithDebInfo). Is that what you meant? >> >> I get the same error, running this way. >> >> Also, with 'secondlife-bin' selected as the default project, when I >> "build solution", it builds nothing (skipping ALL_BUILD). >> >> Thanks again, >> Jeff >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Ambrosia wrote: >>> >>> Lear: >>> >>> When trying to start the client from the MSVC, do these steps first: >>> >>> Right click the secondlife-bin project, and set it as the startup >>> project. >>> Then go into the project properties, and set >>> \indra\build-VC80\release\ (or debug, or relwithdeb) as the working >>> directory. >>> >>> then try again. Basically the working directory is set to >>> \indra\build-VC80\, which is wrong. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 17:09, Lear Cale wrote: >>> > Any ideas on why this is happening (can't find >>> > linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml)? >>> > >>> > Thanks! >>> > >>> > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Lear Cale wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I'm building from source, latest available release (1.21), having >>> >> trouble, >>> >> using MSVS 2005 Express. >>> >> >>> >> The instructions don't say how to build the target using MSVS 2005 >>> >> Express, so I guessed: use File -> Open Project/solution, navigate to >>> >> "linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj >>> >> linden/indra/build-VC80/viewer.vcproj", open that, select >>> >> RelWithDebInfo, >>> >> and build. >>> >> >>> >> Ran into the llkdu.dll problem. Pulled one from my viewer, for now. >>> >> I >>> >> find two different "solutions" for this problem in the wiki but >>> >> they're >>> >> inaccurate or out of date. >>> >> >>> >> Solution built. Wen to run it; and MSVS doesn't know what the >>> >> executable >>> >> file is. I figure it must be >>> >> "\linden\indra\build-VC80\newview\relwithdebinfo\secondlife-bin.exe" >>> >> and try >>> >> that. >>> >> >>> >> It can't find fmod.dll. I find that and copy it into the same >>> >> directory >>> >> as the exe file. >>> >> >>> >> Now when I run the viewer (from MSVS) I get an error from the viewer. >>> >> It >>> >> can't find linden\indra\build-VC80\app_setting\settings_files.xml >>> >> >>> >> Has anyone actually built and run this thing using MSVS 2005 Express? >>> >> >>> >> I'm an experienced software engineer, but I work on Unix development >>> >> systems, for embedded software. I'm a newb to MSVS. >>> >> >>> >> Oh: two places that list dependencies for DXSDK and MS Server SDK >>> >> conflict. One says to use latest versions, the other says to use >>> >> earlier >>> >> ones. Which is correct? I'm using latest. My guess is this has >>> >> nothing to >>> >> do with my problems, but it would be nice to resolve this >>> >> contradiction. >>> >> >>> >> Thanks >>> >> Lear >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> > privileges >>> > >> > > From gareth at garethnelson.com Tue Feb 3 00:35:09 2009 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Tue Feb 3 00:35:13 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ebfc1100902030035n629de832r2564b5d18236cc77@mail.gmail.com> settings.xml lets you hardcode any of the command-line params without a recompile On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Trent Mavendorf wrote: > what Lear Cale suggested - or you could force it by > gSavedSettings.setBOOL("AllowMultipleViewers", TRUE); > in llappviewer.cpp > (didnt test it though) > > 2009/2/2 izze euler >> >> Hi, >> >> Is it possible to change the shortcut target parameters in the SL source >> code or using Inno Setup when creating an installer? >> >> I would like to add a parameter such as "-multiple" to the shortcut >> target, so that I do not have to add it manually every time I create a >> shortcut. Does anyone know how I can do this? >> >> Thanks >> >> ________________________________ >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free Try it Now! >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From tateru.nino at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 02:21:00 2009 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Tue Feb 3 02:21:27 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: References: <8c14f8954cac95ddc86b0b9a4d214b07.squirrel@webmail.terminaldischarge.net> <49871C42.9040204@terminaldischarge.net> <9bb32d430902020821mb07dceai3b4159f7195266e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1233656460.2056.38.camel@atom> Isn't much of this moot with the new inventory protocols coming in a week or three? Being that they're designed to eliminate this problem and all, I mean. On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 20:11 -0800, Stickman wrote: > > As for healthy inventory sizes, I have a 12k inventory, and haven't > > had any issues in over a year. > > I know it can strike anytime from what I heard, but it's just my experience. > > There's a good idea. I'm sure we can find out what a happy inventory > size is if everyone says how big theirs is. Unless of course the > answer doesn't make sense -- then we'll know that inventory size may > not actually be a factor. > > 16k-ish for a few months now. I actually a lot of stuff I could toss. > It was as high as 32k for a few months, too. > > The only inventory issues I've experienced is copy/pasting the > contents of a folder into a new one. Almost always, one of the 20ish > items will magically not show up and I have to relog to fix it. I took > to copying into a folder I didn't intend to continue using, so I could > use the original folder that still had everything visible. > > -Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Tue Feb 3 04:22:12 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Tue Feb 3 04:22:16 2009 Subject: [sldev] DirectX - feasible to replace? In-Reply-To: <9bb32d430902020015k40872cd5wdfb1575ab5d321fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ebfc1100901310836p29d25826x11709bd612f2c41a@mail.gmail.com> <49848A7F.2040602@online.de> <4ebfc1100901311059k5aad107didd3c39f03eaf4cda@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100901311217m299b8e30veaf5b8e5c99230a1@mail.gmail.com> <21DA9236-E8F6-4C72-BA7F-3F3B9D057536@gmail.com> <4985E8DF.3040202@cox.net> <9bb32d430902020015k40872cd5wdfb1575ab5d321fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498836F4.6070708@boroon.dasgupta.ch> [oops, used wrong address ... here it is again for the list] Ambrosia schrieb: > Given that that one doesn't use the DirectX SDK for > hardware detection, have there been certain cases where the Linux > viewer failed to detect hardware properly, with negative results other > than a simple 'can't detect X' message? Hmm ... what exactly should we watch for? SL's automatic VRAM detection was off by a factor of 2 on linux, somewhen, but I think that's been fixed by now. SpaceNavigator works fine with builds from LL's current public SVN trunk, which includes a linux drop-in replacement for the (windows-only) libndofdev. The only issues there are that the user account running SL needs access (rw-permission) to the device, which is best provided by udev via some group (e.g. usb or plugdev), and that the drop-in (which is required by SL to use the SpaceNavigator) cannot be used in parallel to the official driver from 3Dconnexion (which is required by some other applications to use the SpaceNavigator). As the drop-in just replicates the original library's API, but does work quite different internally/at the back-end, I guess there will be very different issues on Windows with SpaceNavigator and Joysticks when removing/replacing DirectX. What doesn't work well (or for some, not at all) under linux, is the detection of available sound IO devices and sound servers/systems/daemons. I don't know if DirectX is involved with this topic in SL under Windows, though. Sound handling under linux is overly complicated due to historic reasons and the inhomogeneity of different distributions in this concern. Most applications handle the situation better than SL does, but the majority of them have the advantage of being provided by the distributions and thereby coming in versions compiled specifically for the sound system(s) used by a specific distribution. What is annoying, is that sound detection seems to work different for vivox and the rest of the viewer (whether fmod or OpenAl or both). While it makes sense to have separate settings, so you can e.g. output normal sound on the speakers and voice on the head-set's headphones, it is very confusing to have different sets of detected devices available for the two settings, or seeing different names for the same devices. cheers Boroondas From izzee at hotmail.co.uk Tue Feb 3 04:54:22 2009 From: izzee at hotmail.co.uk (izze euler) Date: Tue Feb 3 04:54:25 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? In-Reply-To: <4ebfc1100902030035n629de832r2564b5d18236cc77@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ebfc1100902030035n629de832r2564b5d18236cc77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: How do I add command-line params to the settings.xml file? Are you able to give me an example? I also want to be able to hardcode the -loginuri field. Thanks > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:35:09 +0000 > Subject: Re: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? > From: gareth@garethnelson.com > To: trent.mavendorf@googlemail.com > CC: izzee@hotmail.co.uk; sldev@lists.secondlife.com > > settings.xml lets you hardcode any of the command-line params without > a recompile > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Trent Mavendorf > wrote: > > what Lear Cale suggested - or you could force it by > > gSavedSettings.setBOOL("AllowMultipleViewers", TRUE); > > in llappviewer.cpp > > (didnt test it though) > > > > 2009/2/2 izze euler > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> Is it possible to change the shortcut target parameters in the SL source > >> code or using Inno Setup when creating an installer? > >> > >> I would like to add a parameter such as "-multiple" to the shortcut > >> target, so that I do not have to add it manually every time I create a > >> shortcut. Does anyone know how I can do this? > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free Try it Now! > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > >> privileges > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > > > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html _________________________________________________________________ Twice the fun?Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090203/80b3a6ca/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Tue Feb 3 07:08:42 2009 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Tue Feb 3 07:08:46 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? In-Reply-To: <4ebfc1100902030708n8167d15yaec3ccb248abd63d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ebfc1100902030035n629de832r2564b5d18236cc77@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100902030708n8167d15yaec3ccb248abd63d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ebfc1100902030708w54c53df6x3cfc4f5f9ad350b9@mail.gmail.com> You might also want to set persist to 1 On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > Edit settings.xml, find CmdLineLoginURI and edit like so: > CmdLineLoginURI > > Comment > Command line specified login server and CGI prefix to > use. > Persist > 0 > Type > LLSD > Value > > http://your-login-server-here > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 12:54 PM, izze euler wrote: >> How do I add command-line params to the settings.xml file? Are you able to >> give me an example? I also want to be able to hardcode the -loginuri field. >> >> Thanks >> >>> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:35:09 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL >>> source code or Inno Setup? >>> From: gareth@garethnelson.com >>> To: trent.mavendorf@googlemail.com >>> CC: izzee@hotmail.co.uk; sldev@lists.secondlife.com >>> >>> settings.xml lets you hardcode any of the command-line params without >>> a recompile >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Trent Mavendorf >>> wrote: >>> > what Lear Cale suggested - or you could force it by >>> > gSavedSettings.setBOOL("AllowMultipleViewers", TRUE); >>> > in llappviewer.cpp >>> > (didnt test it though) >>> > >>> > 2009/2/2 izze euler >>> >> >>> >> Hi, >>> >> >>> >> Is it possible to change the shortcut target parameters in the SL >>> >> source >>> >> code or using Inno Setup when creating an installer? >>> >> >>> >> I would like to add a parameter such as "-multiple" to the shortcut >>> >> target, so that I do not have to add it manually every time I create a >>> >> shortcut. Does anyone know how I can do this? >>> >> >>> >> Thanks >>> >> >>> >> ________________________________ >>> >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free Try it Now! >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> >> privileges >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> > privileges >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> >> ________________________________ >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free Find out more! > > > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From gareth at garethnelson.com Tue Feb 3 07:08:02 2009 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Tue Feb 3 07:11:50 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? In-Reply-To: References: <4ebfc1100902030035n629de832r2564b5d18236cc77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ebfc1100902030708n8167d15yaec3ccb248abd63d@mail.gmail.com> Edit settings.xml, find CmdLineLoginURI and edit like so: CmdLineLoginURI Comment Command line specified login server and CGI prefix to use. Persist 0 Type LLSD Value http://your-login-server-here On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 12:54 PM, izze euler wrote: > How do I add command-line params to the settings.xml file? Are you able to > give me an example? I also want to be able to hardcode the -loginuri field. > > Thanks > >> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:35:09 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL >> source code or Inno Setup? >> From: gareth@garethnelson.com >> To: trent.mavendorf@googlemail.com >> CC: izzee@hotmail.co.uk; sldev@lists.secondlife.com >> >> settings.xml lets you hardcode any of the command-line params without >> a recompile >> >> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Trent Mavendorf >> wrote: >> > what Lear Cale suggested - or you could force it by >> > gSavedSettings.setBOOL("AllowMultipleViewers", TRUE); >> > in llappviewer.cpp >> > (didnt test it though) >> > >> > 2009/2/2 izze euler >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Is it possible to change the shortcut target parameters in the SL >> >> source >> >> code or using Inno Setup when creating an installer? >> >> >> >> I would like to add a parameter such as "-multiple" to the shortcut >> >> target, so that I do not have to add it manually every time I create a >> >> shortcut. Does anyone know how I can do this? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free Try it Now! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> >> privileges >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> > privileges >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > ________________________________ > Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free Find out more! -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From jhurliman at jhurliman.org Tue Feb 3 10:45:30 2009 From: jhurliman at jhurliman.org (John Hurliman) Date: Tue Feb 3 10:46:45 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: <1233656460.2056.38.camel@atom> References: <8c14f8954cac95ddc86b0b9a4d214b07.squirrel@webmail.terminaldischarge.net> <49871C42.9040204@terminaldischarge.net> <9bb32d430902020821mb07dceai3b4159f7195266e6@mail.gmail.com> <1233656460.2056.38.camel@atom> Message-ID: I'm curious about the new inventory protocol. Do you have a reference for further reading? John On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 2:21 AM, Tateru Nino wrote: > Isn't much of this moot with the new inventory protocols coming in a > week or three? Being that they're designed to eliminate this problem and > all, I mean. > > On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 20:11 -0800, Stickman wrote: > > > As for healthy inventory sizes, I have a 12k inventory, and haven't > > > had any issues in over a year. > > > I know it can strike anytime from what I heard, but it's just my > experience. > > > > There's a good idea. I'm sure we can find out what a happy inventory > > size is if everyone says how big theirs is. Unless of course the > > answer doesn't make sense -- then we'll know that inventory size may > > not actually be a factor. > > > > 16k-ish for a few months now. I actually a lot of stuff I could toss. > > It was as high as 32k for a few months, too. > > > > The only inventory issues I've experienced is copy/pasting the > > contents of a folder into a new one. Almost always, one of the 20ish > > items will magically not show up and I have to relog to fix it. I took > > to copying into a folder I didn't intend to continue using, so I could > > use the original folder that still had everything visible. > > > > -Stickman > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090203/51580eca/attachment-0001.htm From dharrissmith at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 11:09:58 2009 From: dharrissmith at gmail.com (David Smith) Date: Tue Feb 3 11:10:00 2009 Subject: [sldev] novice build errors Message-ID: <7174a0d0902031109g628d502dm21f52178a5850c3f@mail.gmail.com> Hi folks, Thanks to all who have weighed in to help this green programmer, and to Aimee for updating the instructions for Fmod--I just ran a build and the following errors were returned: Building target "libfmodwrapper.dylib" of project "viewer" with configuration "RelWithDebInfo" - (1 error) Linking /Users/David/Desktop/secondlife/linden/indra/build-darwin-i386/newview/RelWithDebInfo/libfmodwrapper.dylib (1 error) can't open -unexported_symbols_list file: ../newview/fmod_hidden_symbols.exp Building target "Second Life" of project "viewer" with configuration "RelWithDebInfo" - (2 errors) Linking... Command /Developer/usr/bin/g++-4.0 failed with exit code 1 Running custom shell...... libfmodwrapper.dylib doesn't exist make: ***[secondlife-bin_buildpart_0] Error 1 Command /bin/sh failed with exit code 2 David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090203/281f7b12/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 11:10:04 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Tue Feb 3 11:10:08 2009 Subject: [sldev] This is no Place for a Rant! In-Reply-To: References: <8c14f8954cac95ddc86b0b9a4d214b07.squirrel@webmail.terminaldischarge.net> <49871C42.9040204@terminaldischarge.net> <9bb32d430902020821mb07dceai3b4159f7195266e6@mail.gmail.com> <1233656460.2056.38.camel@atom> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 10:45 AM, John Hurliman wrote: > I'm curious about the new inventory protocol. Do you have a reference for > further reading? Ditto. I missed the notice. Thanks! -Stickman From aimee.trescothick at googlemail.com Tue Feb 3 14:08:28 2009 From: aimee.trescothick at googlemail.com (Aimee Trescothick) Date: Tue Feb 3 14:08:36 2009 Subject: [sldev] novice build errors In-Reply-To: <7174a0d0902031109g628d502dm21f52178a5850c3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7174a0d0902031109g628d502dm21f52178a5850c3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6CAD652B-2BD5-4555-BD96-59C9B4018CC4@gmail.com> That sounds like ... http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11453 Aimee. On 3 Feb 2009, at 19:09, David Smith wrote: > Hi folks, > > Thanks to all who have weighed in to help this green programmer, and > to Aimee for updating the instructions for Fmod--I just ran a build > and the following errors were returned: > > Building target "libfmodwrapper.dylib" of project "viewer" with > configuration "RelWithDebInfo" - (1 error) > Linking /Users/David/Desktop/secondlife/linden/indra/build-darwin- > i386/newview/RelWithDebInfo/libfmodwrapper.dylib (1 error) > can't open -unexported_symbols_list file: ../newview/ > fmod_hidden_symbols.exp > > Building target "Second Life" of project "viewer" with configuration > "RelWithDebInfo" - (2 errors) > Linking... > Command /Developer/usr/bin/g++-4.0 failed with exit code 1 > > Running custom shell...... > libfmodwrapper.dylib doesn't exist make: ***[secondlife- > bin_buildpart_0] Error 1 > Command /bin/sh failed with exit code 2 > > David > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From e258349021 at exchange.1and1.com Tue Feb 3 14:27:47 2009 From: e258349021 at exchange.1and1.com (Jonathan Goodman) Date: Tue Feb 3 14:27:51 2009 Subject: [sldev] Maint-render-11 issue on OS X Message-ID: <2012A1E1-7A12-489E-B27A-EFC350DCABDB@exchange.1and1.com> Out of curiosity, has anyone tried running the maint-render-11 viewer on OS X with deferred rendering enabled? More specifically, has anyone attempted it on a Mac Pro (first gen) with a GeForce 8800 GT, or with an equivalent card on another configuration with OS X 10.5.6? It seems to run well enough for the first few seconds after enabling deferred rendering (shadows and all!), but then suddenly the system starts getting jumpy, until it finally becomes totally unresponsive, requiring a hard restart. Has anyone else tried this? From izzee at hotmail.co.uk Wed Feb 4 03:04:57 2009 From: izzee at hotmail.co.uk (izze euler) Date: Wed Feb 4 03:05:00 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? In-Reply-To: <4ebfc1100902030708w54c53df6x3cfc4f5f9ad350b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ebfc1100902030035n629de832r2564b5d18236cc77@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100902030708n8167d15yaec3ccb248abd63d@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100902030708w54c53df6x3cfc4f5f9ad350b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It doesn't work. I have tried replacing the with http://localhost and also removing , but neither work. Setting persist to 1 doesn't make any difference either. Any other ideas? Thanks > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:08:42 +0000 > Subject: Re: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? > From: gareth@garethnelson.com > To: izzee@hotmail.co.uk > CC: trent.mavendorf@googlemail.com; sldev@lists.secondlife.com > > You might also want to set persist to 1 > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > > Edit settings.xml, find CmdLineLoginURI and edit like so: > > CmdLineLoginURI > > > > Comment > > Command line specified login server and CGI prefix to > > use. > > Persist > > 0 > > Type > > LLSD > > Value > > > > http://your-login-server-here > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 12:54 PM, izze euler wrote: > >> How do I add command-line params to the settings.xml file? Are you able to > >> give me an example? I also want to be able to hardcode the -loginuri field. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >>> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:35:09 +0000 > >>> Subject: Re: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL > >>> source code or Inno Setup? > >>> From: gareth@garethnelson.com > >>> To: trent.mavendorf@googlemail.com > >>> CC: izzee@hotmail.co.uk; sldev@lists.secondlife.com > >>> > >>> settings.xml lets you hardcode any of the command-line params without > >>> a recompile > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Trent Mavendorf > >>> wrote: > >>> > what Lear Cale suggested - or you could force it by > >>> > gSavedSettings.setBOOL("AllowMultipleViewers", TRUE); > >>> > in llappviewer.cpp > >>> > (didnt test it though) > >>> > > >>> > 2009/2/2 izze euler > >>> >> > >>> >> Hi, > >>> >> > >>> >> Is it possible to change the shortcut target parameters in the SL > >>> >> source > >>> >> code or using Inno Setup when creating an installer? > >>> >> > >>> >> I would like to add a parameter such as "-multiple" to the shortcut > >>> >> target, so that I do not have to add it manually every time I create a > >>> >> shortcut. Does anyone know how I can do this? > >>> >> > >>> >> Thanks > >>> >> > >>> >> ________________________________ > >>> >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free Try it Now! > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >>> >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > >>> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > >>> >> privileges > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > >>> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > >>> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > >>> > privileges > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > >>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free Find out more! > > > > > > > > -- > > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > > > > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html _________________________________________________________________ Twice the fun?Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090204/13d602ba/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Wed Feb 4 08:21:37 2009 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Wed Feb 4 08:21:41 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL source code or Inno Setup? In-Reply-To: References: <4ebfc1100902030035n629de832r2564b5d18236cc77@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100902030708n8167d15yaec3ccb248abd63d@mail.gmail.com> <4ebfc1100902030708w54c53df6x3cfc4f5f9ad350b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ebfc1100902040821x74bb874fh7ffa16b761345a9f@mail.gmail.com> Are you definately running a login server on localhost which is listening on port 80? On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:04 AM, izze euler wrote: > It doesn't work. I have tried replacing the with > http://localhost and also removing , but > neither work. Setting persist to 1 doesn't make any difference either. Any > other ideas? > > Thanks > >> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:08:42 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL >> source code or Inno Setup? >> From: gareth@garethnelson.com >> To: izzee@hotmail.co.uk >> CC: trent.mavendorf@googlemail.com; sldev@lists.secondlife.com >> >> You might also want to set persist to 1 >> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Gareth Nelson >> wrote: >> > Edit settings.xml, find CmdLineLoginURI and edit like so: >> > CmdLineLoginURI >> > >> > Comment >> > Command line specified login server and CGI prefix to >> > use. >> > Persist >> > 0 >> > Type >> > LLSD >> > Value >> > >> > http://your-login-server-here >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 12:54 PM, izze euler wrote: >> >> How do I add command-line params to the settings.xml file? Are you able >> >> to >> >> give me an example? I also want to be able to hardcode the -loginuri >> >> field. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >>> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 08:35:09 +0000 >> >>> Subject: Re: [sldev] [HELP] Changing shortcut target parameters in SL >> >>> source code or Inno Setup? >> >>> From: gareth@garethnelson.com >> >>> To: trent.mavendorf@googlemail.com >> >>> CC: izzee@hotmail.co.uk; sldev@lists.secondlife.com >> >>> >> >>> settings.xml lets you hardcode any of the command-line params without >> >>> a recompile >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Trent Mavendorf >> >>> wrote: >> >>> > what Lear Cale suggested - or you could force it by >> >>> > gSavedSettings.setBOOL("AllowMultipleViewers", TRUE); >> >>> > in llappviewer.cpp >> >>> > (didnt test it though) >> >>> > >> >>> > 2009/2/2 izze euler >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Hi, >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Is it possible to change the shortcut target parameters in the SL >> >>> >> source >> >>> >> code or using Inno Setup when creating an installer? >> >>> >> >> >>> >> I would like to add a parameter such as "-multiple" to the shortcut >> >>> >> target, so that I do not have to add it manually every time I >> >>> >> create a >> >>> >> shortcut. Does anyone know how I can do this? >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Thanks >> >>> >> >> >>> >> ________________________________ >> >>> >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos - Free Try it Now! >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> >>> >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> >>> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> >>> >> privileges >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> >>> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> >>> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> >>> > privileges >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >> >>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free Find out more! >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >> > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > ________________________________ > Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free Find out more! -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From soft at lindenlab.com Wed Feb 4 09:42:57 2009 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Soft) Date: Wed Feb 4 09:43:00 2009 Subject: [sldev] Open Source Meeting Message-ID: Our Thursday open source meetings take place at 2pm. If there is anything you would like on the agenda... have at it! http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda From joy at cs.cmu.edu Wed Feb 4 11:03:04 2009 From: joy at cs.cmu.edu (Joy) Date: Wed Feb 4 11:03:12 2009 Subject: [sldev] How to run built viewer binary outside Visual Studio Message-ID: <4989E668.4030906@cs.cmu.edu> Hi all, I have searched the online document and the archive of the mailing list but could not find the answer. I have successfully built the viewer and can run it from Visual Studio. But when I just click on "secondlife-bin.exe" from the Debug folder under build-vc90, there was no response at all. My hunch is that the lib and settings are not found, but do not where should I put those files. Any suggestions? Best, Joy From gcanaday at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 14:57:21 2009 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Wed Feb 4 14:57:27 2009 Subject: [sldev] DirectX - feasible to replace? In-Reply-To: <498836F4.6070708@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <4ebfc1100901310836p29d25826x11709bd612f2c41a@mail.gmail.com> <9bb32d430902020015k40872cd5wdfb1575ab5d321fd@mail.gmail.com> <498836F4.6070708@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <200902041757.21384.gcanaday@gmail.com> It reads Xorg.0.log for the VRAM on Linux. There's an upstream fix for it. on ATI: it's "Video RAM" now and not "VideoRAM". ATI changed it thinking it wasn't anything important. They probably didn't even know it got changed. There's a patch and it should be out in a while... all I know is that it's upstream in maint-9, whatever that means. Either way, the patch just added a check for it and removed 2 reduntant fopens. --GC On Tuesday 03 February 2009 7:22:12 am Boroondas Gupte wrote: > [oops, used wrong address ... here it is again for the list] > > Ambrosia schrieb: > > Given that that one doesn't use the DirectX SDK for > > hardware detection, have there been certain cases where the Linux > > viewer failed to detect hardware properly, with negative results other > > than a simple 'can't detect X' message? > > Hmm ... what exactly should we watch for? SL's automatic VRAM detection > was off by a factor of 2 on linux, somewhen, but I think that's been > fixed by now. SpaceNavigator works fine with builds from LL's current > public SVN trunk, which includes a linux drop-in replacement for the > (windows-only) libndofdev. The only issues there are that the user > account running SL needs access (rw-permission) to the device, which is > best provided by udev via some group (e.g. usb or plugdev), and that the > drop-in (which is required by SL to use the SpaceNavigator) cannot be > used in parallel to the official driver from 3Dconnexion (which is > required by some other applications to use the SpaceNavigator). As the > drop-in just replicates the original library's API, but does work quite > different internally/at the back-end, I guess there will be very > different issues on Windows with SpaceNavigator and Joysticks when > removing/replacing DirectX. > > What doesn't work well (or for some, not at all) under linux, is the > detection of available sound IO devices and sound > servers/systems/daemons. I don't know if DirectX is involved with this > topic in SL under Windows, though. Sound handling under linux is overly > complicated due to historic reasons and the inhomogeneity of different > distributions in this concern. Most applications handle the situation > better than SL does, but the majority of them have the advantage of > being provided by the distributions and thereby coming in versions > compiled specifically for the sound system(s) used by a specific > distribution. > > What is annoying, is that sound detection seems to work different for > vivox and the rest of the viewer (whether fmod or OpenAl or both). While > it makes sense to have separate settings, so you can e.g. output normal > sound on the speakers and voice on the head-set's headphones, it is very > confusing to have different sets of detected devices available for the > two settings, or seeing different names for the same devices. > > cheers > Boroondas > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de Wed Feb 4 16:44:51 2009 From: I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de (zai) Date: Wed Feb 4 16:44:51 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) Message-ID: <1233794691.6338.20.camel@konsubuntu> Hey there! I wrote a Wiki article about 'Land' which goes from parcel to region to estate to grid. When I came to grid, I realized that I had no real idea how to pin it. The current definition there is "A collection of sims (e.g. Agni & Aditi) with a shared asset database." Does that come close to reality? Can someone improve it? The article is located at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land Greetz, zai -- https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zai_Lynch From gareth at litesim.com Wed Feb 4 16:55:04 2009 From: gareth at litesim.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Wed Feb 4 16:55:06 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <1233794691.6338.20.camel@konsubuntu> References: <1233794691.6338.20.camel@konsubuntu> Message-ID: <61dbdd7d0902041655j6b57becn9d947035fe74bc79@mail.gmail.com> In the context of SL: A collection of servers which collectively work together to provide the services required to operate a full virtual world. On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 12:44 AM, zai wrote: > Hey there! > > I wrote a Wiki article about 'Land' which goes from parcel to region to > estate to grid. When I came to grid, I realized that I had no real idea > how to pin it. > The current definition there is > "A collection of sims (e.g. Agni & Aditi) with a shared asset database." > Does that come close to reality? Can someone improve it? > > The article is located at > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land > > Greetz, > zai > > > -- > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zai_Lynch > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From escort.defarge at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 21:12:22 2009 From: escort.defarge at gmail.com (Escort DeFarge) Date: Wed Feb 4 21:12:33 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) Message-ID: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com> For an accurate definition -- start here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Grid_Services_Architecture ...the SL architecture doesn't actually conform to a strict definition of "grid computing" as you'll soon see. However, the SL grid does have one big thing going for it -- it works (mostly). /esc From infinity at lindenlab.com Wed Feb 4 21:49:35 2009 From: infinity at lindenlab.com (Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity)) Date: Wed Feb 4 21:49:38 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com> References: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> right. i think we're less in the WSDL camp and more in the REST camp, so we might say that OGSA is a _type_ of a grid, but that we adhere more to something like what's defined in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing with REST semantics layered on top of our services. On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Escort DeFarge wrote: > For an accurate definition -- start here... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Grid_Services_Architecture > > ...the SL architecture doesn't actually conform to a strict > definition of "grid computing" as you'll soon see. However, the SL > grid does have one big thing going for it -- it works (mostly). > > /esc > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de Wed Feb 4 22:19:09 2009 From: I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de (zai) Date: Wed Feb 4 22:19:08 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> References: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com> <0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <1233814749.6338.49.camel@konsubuntu> eeps, that one went off list... again: eerrr... I see I should clarify. So the question I meant was: What is meant by the word "Grid" in context to SL, in some easy understandable way so it fits in the https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land#Grid article. (Please don't answer with a link to http://secondlifegrid.net/ ) We got: Gareth: "A collection of servers which collectively work together to provide the services required to operate a full virtual world." Dahlia (off-list reply): How about something along the lines of "A collection of 256x256x(some big number) regions arranged on a cartesian plane which share common back end support services such as asset and inventory storage, presence, and communications." as well as the two Wikipedia links and the initial definition I used in the article. I think Gareth is something intuitivly understandable although maybe not very specific. In Dahlias version, the numbers are confusing me. Can a grid contain of just one region? I guess it can... I got confused when a friend mentioned that OpenSim got StandAlone- and Grid-mode so what is a sim _without_ a grid... Sorry to bother this list with my pondering as it won't help with developement and is just some documentation issue. Greetz, zai From tateru.nino at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 23:30:34 2009 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Wed Feb 4 23:31:01 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <1233794691.6338.20.camel@konsubuntu> References: <1233794691.6338.20.camel@konsubuntu> Message-ID: <1233819034.5716.14.camel@atom> Well, that only really works for SL style grids. The virtual environment grids from the 80's and 90's are a bit different, and it isn't unreasonable to see other kinds of grids out in the industry as time goes. On Thu, 2009-02-05 at 01:44 +0100, zai wrote: > Hey there! > > I wrote a Wiki article about 'Land' which goes from parcel to region to > estate to grid. When I came to grid, I realized that I had no real idea > how to pin it. > The current definition there is > "A collection of sims (e.g. Agni & Aditi) with a shared asset database." > Does that come close to reality? Can someone improve it? > > The article is located at > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land > > Greetz, > zai > > From chaosstar at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 23:54:12 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Wed Feb 4 23:54:15 2009 Subject: [sldev] How to run built viewer binary outside Visual Studio In-Reply-To: <4989E668.4030906@cs.cmu.edu> References: <4989E668.4030906@cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <9bb32d430902042354k38c99771n3c291dab92855bed@mail.gmail.com> Joy: Make a new folder, somewhere. Copy the contents of your build-vc90/release/* (or debug, or relwithdeb) folder into that one. The only exception are the secondlife-bin.* files aside of the .exe, you don't necessarily need those. Also put the following files from the indra/newview/ folder in: app_settings character fonts skins all .txt files that include 'feature' llkdu.dll needs to be grabbed from a plain LL viewer. If you use OpenAL, you might have to rename openal.dll to openal32.dll, and you might have to manually copy fmod.dll from your /libraries/ folder into the new one. Hope that helps. On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 20:03, Joy wrote: > Hi all, > > I have searched the online document and the archive of the mailing list but > could not find the answer. > > I have successfully built the viewer and can run it from Visual Studio. > But when I just click on "secondlife-bin.exe" from the Debug folder under > build-vc90, there was no response at all. > My hunch is that the lib and settings are not found, but do not where should > I put those files. > > Any suggestions? > > Best, > > Joy > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From ordinal.malaprop at fastmail.fm Thu Feb 5 01:23:17 2009 From: ordinal.malaprop at fastmail.fm (ordinal.malaprop@fastmail.fm) Date: Thu Feb 5 01:23:22 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <1233814749.6338.49.camel@konsubuntu> References: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com> <0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> <1233814749.6338.49.camel@konsubuntu> Message-ID: <2F49D933-C544-4886-9318-6FC1949AEBE6@fastmail.fm> I think the current definition is quite good, for SL. I have been having to explore the concept of "grid" in relation to both SL and opensims and, more specifically, the opensim "hypergrid" system, and what I have come down to is "the combination of (a) one or more region and (b) overall identity, asset management and other global systems". Of course, opensim and SL deal with issues in different ways in any case so exactly what is done by (a) and what by (b) will be different. And the hypergrid thing splits everything up into multiple (a)s and (b)s, hosted anywhere you like. But if I was trying to explain what "the Grid" was to somebody new and not very technical, I would be waffling along the lines of "it's made up of regions, which are laid out in a grid pattern, and each region has an individual program that handles things that happen in that region - and there are also underlying databases to handle things that aren't tied to a region, like your inventory. And they all talk to each other." On 5 Feb 2009, at 06:19, zai wrote: > eeps, that one went off list... again: > > > eerrr... I see I should clarify. > So the question I meant was: What is meant by the word "Grid" in > context > to SL, in some easy understandable way so it fits in the > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land#Grid > > article. (Please don't answer with a link to > http://secondlifegrid.net/ ) > > We got: > Gareth: > "A collection of servers which collectively work together to provide > the services required to operate a full virtual world." > > Dahlia (off-list reply): > How about something along the lines of "A collection of 256x256x(some > big number) regions arranged on a cartesian plane which share common > back end support services such as asset and inventory storage, > presence, > and communications." > > as well as the two Wikipedia links and the initial definition I used > in > the article. > > I think Gareth is something intuitivly understandable although maybe > not > very specific. In Dahlias version, the numbers are confusing me. Can a > grid contain of just one region? I guess it can... > > I got confused when a friend mentioned that OpenSim got StandAlone- > and > Grid-mode so what is a sim _without_ a grid... Sorry to bother this > list > with my pondering as it won't help with developement and is just some > documentation issue. > > Greetz, > zai > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From escort.defarge at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 08:55:39 2009 From: escort.defarge at gmail.com (Escort DeFarge) Date: Thu Feb 5 08:55:44 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> References: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com> <0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <498B1A0B.3000005@gmail.com> I strongly support LL's decision to favor REST over WSDL (for many, many reasons). For sure, OGSA is definitely only one type of grid, but otoh that does not make SL a "grid computing environment". Wikipedia's Grid Computing entry has loosened considerably over the last 3-4 years. To my mind/taste, when defining "grid computing", the tighter and clearer definition stated in the short paper "What is the Grid" (http://www-fp.mcs.anl.gov/~foster/Articles/WhatIsTheGrid.pdf) remains a much more helpful and accurate definition. Of the three checkpoints in that definition only (3) probably counts for SL's current grid architecture, since the LL grid has resources under central control (1), and is not open (2). (Though I note that the AWG is definitely moving SL closer to this definition). For most, I sure this is all an exercise in hair-splitting, but I find it hard to state that SL is a grid computing environment (as yet) but rather I would say that it is an highly distributed system that includes a grid. /esc Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity) wrote: > right. i think we're less in the WSDL camp and more in the REST camp, > so we might say that OGSA is a _type_ of a grid, but that we adhere > more to something like what's defined in > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing with REST semantics > layered on top of our services. > > On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Escort DeFarge wrote: > >> For an accurate definition -- start here... >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Grid_Services_Architecture >> >> ...the SL architecture doesn't actually conform to a strict >> definition of "grid computing" as you'll soon see. However, the SL >> grid does have one big thing going for it -- it works (mostly). >> >> /esc >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > From q at lindenlab.com Thu Feb 5 09:50:14 2009 From: q at lindenlab.com (Kent Quirk (Q Linden)) Date: Thu Feb 5 09:50:17 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <498B1A0B.3000005@gmail.com> References: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com><0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> <498B1A0B.3000005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2BEB6B7B-0FF0-469A-95BB-756AB59E864B@lindenlab.com> And whether or not SL strictly fits some external definition of "grid computing", we use the term Grid within Second Life, which is what the OP was asking for. In that context, the Second Life grid is the integrated system that provides a networked collection of servers, some of which are simulators that implement our presentation of land. Those are arranged in the form of a rectangular mesh (but yes, it would be possible to have a "grid" with only one simulator in it). In addition, the SL grid provides a set of other services, including presence, inventory management, and asset store, that integrate with but are independent of the simulators. Q On Feb 5, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Escort DeFarge wrote: > I strongly support LL's decision to favor REST over WSDL (for many, > many reasons). > > For sure, OGSA is definitely only one type of grid, but otoh that > does not make SL a "grid computing environment". > > Wikipedia's Grid Computing entry has loosened considerably over the > last 3-4 years. To my mind/taste, when defining "grid computing", > the tighter and clearer definition stated in the short paper "What > is the Grid" (http://www-fp.mcs.anl.gov/~foster/Articles/WhatIsTheGrid.pdf > ) remains a much more helpful and accurate definition. Of the three > checkpoints in that definition only (3) probably counts for SL's > current grid architecture, since the LL grid has resources under > central control (1), and is not open (2). (Though I note that the > AWG is definitely moving SL closer to this definition). > > For most, I sure this is all an exercise in hair-splitting, but I > find it hard to state that SL is a grid computing environment (as > yet) but rather I would say that it is an highly distributed system > that includes a grid. > > /esc > > > Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity) wrote: >> right. i think we're less in the WSDL camp and more in the REST >> camp, so we might say that OGSA is a _type_ of a grid, but that we >> adhere more to something like what's defined in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing >> with REST semantics layered on top of our services. >> >> On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Escort DeFarge wrote: >> >>> For an accurate definition -- start here... >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Grid_Services_Architecture >>> >>> ...the SL architecture doesn't actually conform to a strict >>> definition of "grid computing" as you'll soon see. However, the SL >>> grid does have one big thing going for it -- it works (mostly). >>> >>> /esc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated >>> posting privileges >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From dahliatrimble at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 09:51:54 2009 From: dahliatrimble at gmail.com (Dahlia Trimble) Date: Thu Feb 5 09:51:55 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <1233814749.6338.49.camel@konsubuntu> References: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com> <0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> <1233814749.6338.49.camel@konsubuntu> Message-ID: The numbers I had in my (mistakenly private) reply were describing the size of a single region on a grid of regions, as implemented in SL. My answer was also intended as a lay answer, as the term "grid" has multiple meanings and may not be necessarily interpreted by laity as a "grid computing environment" On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 10:19 PM, zai wrote: > eeps, that one went off list... again: > > > eerrr... I see I should clarify. > So the question I meant was: What is meant by the word "Grid" in context > to SL, in some easy understandable way so it fits in the > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land#Grid > > article. (Please don't answer with a link to > http://secondlifegrid.net/ ) > > We got: > Gareth: > "A collection of servers which collectively work together to provide > the services required to operate a full virtual world." > > Dahlia (off-list reply): > How about something along the lines of "A collection of 256x256x(some > big number) regions arranged on a cartesian plane which share common > back end support services such as asset and inventory storage, presence, > and communications." > > as well as the two Wikipedia links and the initial definition I used in > the article. > > I think Gareth is something intuitivly understandable although maybe not > very specific. In Dahlias version, the numbers are confusing me. Can a > grid contain of just one region? I guess it can... > > I got confused when a friend mentioned that OpenSim got StandAlone- and > Grid-mode so what is a sim _without_ a grid... Sorry to bother this list > with my pondering as it won't help with developement and is just some > documentation issue. > > Greetz, > zai > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090205/f97841a0/attachment.htm From lear.cale at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 11:04:04 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Thu Feb 5 11:04:07 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows MSVC build instructions updated, please review Message-ID: I added text to the SL Wiki, for the benefit of people who are unfamiliar with MS VS. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds#Compiling Please review what I added and correct or clarify as appropriate. Thanks for the help, folks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090205/edef5385/attachment.htm From robla at lindenlab.com Thu Feb 5 11:13:59 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Thu Feb 5 11:14:03 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows MSVC build instructions updated, please review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498B3A77.3080800@lindenlab.com> On 2/5/09 11:04 AM, Lear Cale wrote: > I added text to the SL Wiki, for the benefit of people who are > unfamiliar with MS VS. > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds#Compiling > > Please review what I added and correct or clarify as appropriate. > > Thanks for the help, folks! Hi Lear, Thanks for documenting what you found! Based on the updated instructions, one point that it looks like you might have missed from my earlier reply to you: > I get the following running develop.py. > > C:\BUILD\SL\linden\indra>python develop.py -G VC80 > Running 'cmake -G "Visual Studio 8 2005" -DSTANDALO > OL=FALSE "" "C:\\BUILD\\SL\\linden\\indra"' in 'bui [...] > CMake Error: Could not find DirectX SDK Include > > Visual Studio "Tools -> Options -> VC++ directories -> Include Files" > has "C:\Program Files\Microsoft DirectX SDK (December 2006)\Include" > in it, added using the browser so there's no chance of a typo on the > path name. > > I had a later version installed, so I uninstalled it and installed the > 2006 since that's the version mentioned in the Wiki; did this before > trying to run develop.py. > > Any clue what might be wrong? Hmmm...where did you find the reference to the December 2006 version of the SDK? The "Microsoft Windows Builds" wiki page references the August 2008 version. Looking at the CMake file will give you a list of the supported versions; http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/trunk/indra/cmake/DirectX.cmake Rob From lear.cale at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 14:34:56 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Thu Feb 5 14:34:58 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows MSVC build instructions updated, please review In-Reply-To: <498B3A77.3080800@lindenlab.com> References: <498B3A77.3080800@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: Yes, I must have missed that; sorry. Yes, there are two places that specify which version of DirectX SDK (and also Platform SDK) should be used. Starting from http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(MSVS2005), the very first link is Setup Microsoft Visual Studio ( http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio) Down that page a bit: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio#Install_Microsoft_Platform_.26_DirectX_SDKs This page mentions the earlier versions. The original page (Compiling the viewer) specifies the latest versions. I get the problem I was asking about using either version, IIRC. I'm now using latest. I asked about this inconsistency earlier and got no reply, but no doubt it was lost in the noise. Also, I earlier added a note that you might need to install DirectX SDK to a path with no spaces. This is not the case for Platform SDK: you can use the default path for that. Thanks, Lear On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Rob Lanphier wrote: > On 2/5/09 11:04 AM, Lear Cale wrote: > > I added text to the SL Wiki, for the benefit of people who are > > unfamiliar with MS VS. > > > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds#Compiling > > > > Please review what I added and correct or clarify as appropriate. > > > > Thanks for the help, folks! > > Hi Lear, > > Thanks for documenting what you found! Based on the updated > instructions, one point that it looks like you might have missed from my > earlier reply to you: > > > I get the following running develop.py. > > > > C:\BUILD\SL\linden\indra>python develop.py -G VC80 > > Running 'cmake -G "Visual Studio 8 2005" -DSTANDALO > > OL=FALSE "" "C:\\BUILD\\SL\\linden\\indra"' in 'bui > [...] > > CMake Error: Could not find DirectX SDK Include > > > > Visual Studio "Tools -> Options -> VC++ directories -> Include Files" > > has "C:\Program Files\Microsoft DirectX SDK (December 2006)\Include" > > in it, added using the browser so there's no chance of a typo on the > > path name. > > > > I had a later version installed, so I uninstalled it and installed the > > 2006 since that's the version mentioned in the Wiki; did this before > > trying to run develop.py. > > > > Any clue what might be wrong? > > Hmmm...where did you find the reference to the December 2006 version of > the SDK? The "Microsoft Windows Builds" wiki page references the August > 2008 version. Looking at the CMake file will give you a list of the > supported versions; > > http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/trunk/indra/cmake/DirectX.cmake > > > Rob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090205/9f36bc3c/attachment.htm From head_mt at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 18:56:28 2009 From: head_mt at yahoo.com (Jeff) Date: Thu Feb 5 18:56:30 2009 Subject: [sldev] Re:My Email Message-ID: <776302.8657.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> head_mt@yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090205/7e92c348/attachment.htm From alissa_sabre at yahoo.co.jp Fri Feb 6 03:19:22 2009 From: alissa_sabre at yahoo.co.jp (Alissa Sabre) Date: Fri Feb 6 03:19:29 2009 Subject: [sldev] Build instructions for MS: python 2.6? In-Reply-To: <49825B8B.1010609@lindenlab.com> References: <49825B8B.1010609@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <1er6dsYdxJfd412xcv5do6P16.> Rob: > Looking at the CMake file will give you a list of the > supported versions; > http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/trunk/indra/cmake/DirectX.cmake Just a curiosity: What do you mean by "supported versions"? Do you Lindens test all combinations of source distributions with all listed versions of DirectX SDK? (I guess you don't. :-) BTW, I've been using Aug. 2006 for about 2 years for SL development, and I have experienced no trouble caused by that (Except that I need to rewrite DirectX.cmake.) -------------------------------------- Yahoo! JAPAN - Internet safety for children and parents. http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/security/ From josh at lindenlab.com Fri Feb 6 10:31:23 2009 From: josh at lindenlab.com (Joshua Bell) Date: Fri Feb 6 10:32:43 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <2BEB6B7B-0FF0-469A-95BB-756AB59E864B@lindenlab.com> References: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com><0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> <498B1A0B.3000005@gmail.com> <2BEB6B7B-0FF0-469A-95BB-756AB59E864B@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <498C81FB.9030902@lindenlab.com> Even within SL there are some different uses of "grid". One that springs to mind is "Main Grid" vs. "Teen Grid". These would be considered the same "grid" via Q's definition below as they are implemented on the same physical hardware and core services (i.e. "agni"). The intent, however, is that they are not causally connected (i.e. nothing on one can affect another). Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote: > And whether or not SL strictly fits some external definition of "grid > computing", we use the term Grid within Second Life, which is what the > OP was asking for. > > In that context, the Second Life grid is the integrated system that > provides a networked collection of servers, some of which are > simulators that implement our presentation of land. Those are arranged > in the form of a rectangular mesh (but yes, it would be possible to > have a "grid" with only one simulator in it). In addition, the SL grid > provides a set of other services, including presence, inventory > management, and asset store, that integrate with but are independent > of the simulators. > > Q > > > > On Feb 5, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Escort DeFarge wrote: > >> I strongly support LL's decision to favor REST over WSDL (for many, >> many reasons). >> >> For sure, OGSA is definitely only one type of grid, but otoh that >> does not make SL a "grid computing environment". >> >> Wikipedia's Grid Computing entry has loosened considerably over the >> last 3-4 years. To my mind/taste, when defining "grid computing", the >> tighter and clearer definition stated in the short paper "What is the >> Grid" (http://www-fp.mcs.anl.gov/~foster/Articles/WhatIsTheGrid.pdf) >> remains a much more helpful and accurate definition. Of the three >> checkpoints in that definition only (3) probably counts for SL's >> current grid architecture, since the LL grid has resources under >> central control (1), and is not open (2). (Though I note that the AWG >> is definitely moving SL closer to this definition). >> >> For most, I sure this is all an exercise in hair-splitting, but I >> find it hard to state that SL is a grid computing environment (as >> yet) but rather I would say that it is an highly distributed system >> that includes a grid. >> >> /esc >> >> >> Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity) wrote: >>> right. i think we're less in the WSDL camp and more in the REST >>> camp, so we might say that OGSA is a _type_ of a grid, but that we >>> adhere more to something like what's defined in >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing with REST semantics >>> layered on top of our services. >>> >>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Escort DeFarge wrote: >>> >>>> For an accurate definition -- start here... >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Grid_Services_Architecture >>>> >>>> ...the SL architecture doesn't actually conform to a strict >>>> definition of "grid computing" as you'll soon see. However, the SL >>>> grid does have one big thing going for it -- it works (mostly). >>>> >>>> /esc >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>> privileges >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From robla at lindenlab.com Fri Feb 6 10:42:23 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Fri Feb 6 10:42:35 2009 Subject: [sldev] Build instructions for MS: python 2.6? In-Reply-To: <1er6dsYdxJfd412xcv5do6P16.> References: <49825B8B.1010609@lindenlab.com> <1er6dsYdxJfd412xcv5do6P16.> Message-ID: <498C848F.2020807@lindenlab.com> On 2/6/09 3:19 AM, Alissa Sabre wrote: > Rob: > >> Looking at the CMake file will give you a list of the >> supported versions; >> http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/trunk/indra/cmake/DirectX.cmake >> > > Just a curiosity: What do you mean by "supported versions"? Do you > Lindens test all combinations of source distributions with all listed > versions of DirectX SDK? (I guess you don't. :-) > Yeah, I assume we don't either. In this context, all I meant was "versions which you can install it in the default location and expect it to still work". > BTW, I've been using Aug. 2006 for about 2 years for SL development, > and I have experienced no trouble caused by that (Except that I need > to rewrite DirectX.cmake.) > Hmm...I wonder if I should encourage you to submit a patch for that. I kinda think we should add the older path if it still works, because that just increases the odds that a first build will "just work". However, my understanding is that outdated DirectX drivers can result in some ugly behavior. Still, if you can vouch that it works just fine, that's one point in favor of adding it. Other Lindens have an opinion on this one? I don't want to waste Alissa's time if we wouldn't incorporate it. Rob From lear.cale at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 11:16:28 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Fri Feb 6 11:16:40 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows MSVC build instructions updated, please review In-Reply-To: References: <498B3A77.3080800@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: I went ahead and changed the page that referenced the older versions (setting up MSVS) to match the newer ones. I also deleted my note about installing DX SDK to a folder with no spaces. After seeing the relevant cmake file, I believe my problem was that I was using the earlier version of DX SDK, which that cmake file wouldn't find. In any case, I'm up and running so thanks for all the help. On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Lear Cale wrote: > Yes, I must have missed that; sorry. > > Yes, there are two places that specify which version of DirectX SDK (and > also Platform SDK) should be used. > > Starting from > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Compiling_the_viewer_(MSVS2005), the very > first link is > > Setup Microsoft Visual Studio ( > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio) > > Down that page a bit: > > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio#Install_Microsoft_Platform_.26_DirectX_SDKs > > This page mentions the earlier versions. The original page (Compiling the > viewer) specifies the latest versions. > > I get the problem I was asking about using either version, IIRC. I'm now > using latest. I asked about this inconsistency earlier and got no reply, > but no doubt it was lost in the noise. > > Also, I earlier added a note that you might need to install DirectX SDK to > a path with no spaces. This is not the case for Platform SDK: you can use > the default path for that. > > Thanks, > Lear > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Rob Lanphier wrote: > >> On 2/5/09 11:04 AM, Lear Cale wrote: >> > I added text to the SL Wiki, for the benefit of people who are >> > unfamiliar with MS VS. >> > >> > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_Builds#Compiling >> > >> > Please review what I added and correct or clarify as appropriate. >> > >> > Thanks for the help, folks! >> >> Hi Lear, >> >> Thanks for documenting what you found! Based on the updated >> instructions, one point that it looks like you might have missed from my >> earlier reply to you: >> >> > I get the following running develop.py. >> > >> > C:\BUILD\SL\linden\indra>python develop.py -G VC80 >> > Running 'cmake -G "Visual Studio 8 2005" -DSTANDALO >> > OL=FALSE "" "C:\\BUILD\\SL\\linden\\indra"' in 'bui >> [...] >> > CMake Error: Could not find DirectX SDK Include >> > >> > Visual Studio "Tools -> Options -> VC++ directories -> Include Files" >> > has "C:\Program Files\Microsoft DirectX SDK (December 2006)\Include" >> > in it, added using the browser so there's no chance of a typo on the >> > path name. >> > >> > I had a later version installed, so I uninstalled it and installed the >> > 2006 since that's the version mentioned in the Wiki; did this before >> > trying to run develop.py. >> > >> > Any clue what might be wrong? >> >> Hmmm...where did you find the reference to the December 2006 version of >> the SDK? The "Microsoft Windows Builds" wiki page references the August >> 2008 version. Looking at the CMake file will give you a list of the >> supported versions; >> >> http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/trunk/indra/cmake/DirectX.cmake >> >> >> Rob >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090206/74a6716d/attachment-0001.htm From monkowsk at watson.ibm.com Fri Feb 6 13:02:38 2009 From: monkowsk at watson.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Fri Feb 6 13:02:45 2009 Subject: [sldev] slviewer on PLAYSTATION3 In-Reply-To: References: <49751C3D.1050805@watson.ibm.com> <4975FE5B.4040203@watson.ibm.com> <49774E5D.50700@watson.ibm.com> <49788543.4050900@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <498CA56E.3090401@watson.ibm.com> The problem appears to be that it expects to find a space before the "kB" and there is none. In indra/llwindow/llwindowsdl.cpp In the line 289 const char part2_template[] = " kB"; try removing the space there and see if that works. const char part2_template[] = "kB"; You can also uncomment 282 //lldebugs << "XLOG: " << line_buf << llendl; or change it to llinfos << "XLOG: " << line_buf << llendl; to make sure it's actually getting to that part of the code. Mike Takeshich Nakamura wrote: > Mike Monkowski ??? > >>>(II) FBDEV(0): hardware: ps3fb (video memory: 18240kB) >> >>In indra/llwindow/llwindowsdl.cpp you will find: >> >>362 if (0 == rtn) >>363 { >>364 fp = fopen(fname.c_str(), "r"); >>365 if (fp) >>366 { >>367 rtn = x11_detect_VRAM_kb_fp(fp, ": >>Memory: "); >>368 fclose(fp); >>369 } >>370 } >> >>Copy this code in the source and paste another copy right after it, >>changing the line inside the if statement to >>rtn = x11_detect_VRAM_kb_fp(fp, "video memory: "); >>This will allow it to get the correct setting for video memory. > > > I tried to change source and compiled. > but, not able to get the correct setting for video memory. From robla at lindenlab.com Fri Feb 6 15:42:50 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Fri Feb 6 15:42:57 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows MSVC build instructions updated, please review In-Reply-To: References: <498B3A77.3080800@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <498CCAFA.6040804@lindenlab.com> On 2/6/09 11:16 AM, Lear Cale wrote: > I went ahead and changed the page that referenced the older versions > (setting up MSVS) to match the newer ones. > > I also deleted my note about installing DX SDK to a folder with no > spaces. After seeing the relevant cmake file, I believe my problem > was that I was using the earlier version of DX SDK, which that cmake > file wouldn't find. Excellent! I was just about to clean this up myself. I did some more futzing and cleanup on that page after you did your work: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio > In any case, I'm up and running so thanks for all the help. w00t! We'll be expecting patches soon. ;-) Rob From takeshich.nakamura at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 20:53:52 2009 From: takeshich.nakamura at gmail.com (Takeshich Nakamura) Date: Fri Feb 6 20:53:50 2009 Subject: [sldev] slviewer on PLAYSTATION3 In-Reply-To: <498CA56E.3090401@watson.ibm.com> References: <49751C3D.1050805@watson.ibm.com> <4975FE5B.4040203@watson.ibm.com> <49774E5D.50700@watson.ibm.com> <49788543.4050900@watson.ibm.com> <498CA56E.3090401@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: Mike Monkowski ??? > The problem appears to be that it expects to find a space before the > "kB" and there is none. In indra/llwindow/llwindowsdl.cpp > In the line > 289 const char part2_template[] = " kB"; > try removing the space there and see if that works. > const char part2_template[] = "kB"; > You can also uncomment > 282 //lldebugs << "XLOG: " << line_buf << llendl; > or change it to > llinfos << "XLOG: " << line_buf << llendl; > to make sure it's actually getting to that part of the code. I tried to change source and compiled. According to SecondLife.log: 2009-02-07T04:27:06Z INFO: x11_detect_VRAM_kb_fp: XLOG: (II) FBDEV(0): hardware: ps3fb (video memory: 18368kB) 2009-02-07T04:27:06Z INFO: createContext: X11 log-parser detected 17MB VRAM. Thank you,I could get the correct setting for video memory. ----------- Takeshich Nakamura takeshich.nakamura@gmail.com From labrat.hb at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 23:55:27 2009 From: labrat.hb at gmail.com (Harold Brown) Date: Fri Feb 6 23:55:30 2009 Subject: [sldev] Who to contact regarding lost inventory during the Maintenance last night Message-ID: During the Network maintenance last night my partner lost an inventory item. Who or how would they go about trying to get it retrieved. Kinda pissed about the whole thing as there were no warning messages sent to the grid regarding the maintenance that evidently had detrimental effects to asset transactions. I myself had several small items I didn't mind losing not show up in my inventory. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090206/cf441f8a/attachment.htm From GordonWendt at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 02:44:38 2009 From: GordonWendt at gmail.com (Gordon Wendt) Date: Sat Feb 7 02:44:42 2009 Subject: [sldev] Who to contact regarding lost inventory during the Maintenance last night In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <493033a70902070244x5c6762c6qfe43b3a074d77043@mail.gmail.com> You'll have to contact the support team by going to https://support.secondlife.com/ and filing a ticket. -G.W. On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 2:55 AM, Harold Brown wrote: > During the Network maintenance last night my partner lost an inventory > item. Who or how would they go about trying to get it retrieved. > > Kinda pissed about the whole thing as there were no warning messages sent > to the grid regarding the maintenance that evidently had detrimental effects > to asset transactions. I myself had several small items I didn't mind > losing not show up in my inventory. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090207/7c29caf5/attachment.htm From wdemauro at verizon.net Sat Feb 7 08:02:14 2009 From: wdemauro at verizon.net (Will) Date: Sat Feb 7 08:02:19 2009 Subject: [sldev] Who to contact regarding lost inventory during the Maintenance last night References: Message-ID: Harold, Just went through a protracted attempt to get back inventory, started with a support ticket and also tried live help- while being sent all over to clear cache and relog in "quiet" areas and on the line with live chat an entire folder I had just made with everything I was wearing disappeared- huds hair jewelry.... what did happen was live chat helped return a valuable item I had lost well over a year ago (ok ok it was a sexgen platinum unit) - then after 4+ hours in live chat I got a response to the support ticket telling me to clear cache and relog in a "quiet" area ..... back to live chat mad as hell. Was told it would be "escalated and they would be back to me within 24 hours - five days later I contacted live chat again and the next day I got this: Solution: Hello Dragger, I'm sorry for the inventory issues you have been experiencing. I have run an escalated recovery of corrupt items in your inventory and have only recovered 13 items. You will find these in your lost and found folder after you clear cache and relog. In the chance that you have corrupt cache on your hard drive I recommend you manually delete the Second Life cache folder too. First detach all worn prims and HUDs from your avatar. Then log out of SL. Then open the folder: C:\Documents and Settings\[User]\Application Data\SecondLife Find the "cache" folder and delete it completely. Then login to SL to the region "Welsh". Open your inventory and start a inventory fetch. Wait in the region until the full inventory fetch is completed. This could take upwards of 30 minutes depending on your total inventory size. Again I do apologize for all of the inventory issues, but this was the last possible tool available to attempt recovering inventory. If you do not find your missing items in Lost and Found after relogging there is nothing else we can do. Regards, Kyle Linden Technical Escalations Best of luck Dragger Lok ----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Brown To: Second Life Developer Mailing List Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:55 AM Subject: [sldev] Who to contact regarding lost inventory during the Maintenance last night During the Network maintenance last night my partner lost an inventory item. Who or how would they go about trying to get it retrieved. Kinda pissed about the whole thing as there were no warning messages sent to the grid regarding the maintenance that evidently had detrimental effects to asset transactions. I myself had several small items I didn't mind losing not show up in my inventory. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090207/7d673f12/attachment.htm From I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de Tue Feb 10 07:31:32 2009 From: I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de (zai) Date: Tue Feb 10 07:31:46 2009 Subject: [sldev] [SVC] What is a Grid? (Searching for a hard definition) In-Reply-To: <2BEB6B7B-0FF0-469A-95BB-756AB59E864B@lindenlab.com> References: <498A7536.40100@gmail.com> <0A50BAA5-A69C-41CE-A529-10C90C81DBC2@lindenlab.com> <498B1A0B.3000005@gmail.com> <2BEB6B7B-0FF0-469A-95BB-756AB59E864B@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <1234279892.17937.4.camel@konsubuntu> I'm very late with this answer, but better late than never ^^ I added Q's definition to the article and linked a reference to this discussion in case the reader is searching for further info. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land#Grid Just wanted to thank for the replies! They were really helpful/interesting. =) Cyas, zai From monkowsk at watson.ibm.com Tue Feb 10 08:05:18 2009 From: monkowsk at watson.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue Feb 10 08:05:24 2009 Subject: [sldev] slviewer on PLAYSTATION3 In-Reply-To: References: <49751C3D.1050805@watson.ibm.com> <4975FE5B.4040203@watson.ibm.com> <49774E5D.50700@watson.ibm.com> <49788543.4050900@watson.ibm.com> <498CA56E.3090401@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <4991A5BE.4020409@watson.ibm.com> Takeshich Nakamura wrote: > Thank you,I could get the correct setting for video memory. Does it still crash when using the mesa cell driver? If so, do you have a stack trace from the debug build ov the viewer? Mike From vexstreeter at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 09:10:59 2009 From: vexstreeter at gmail.com (Vex Streeter) Date: Tue Feb 10 09:11:07 2009 Subject: [sldev] Super Bowl 3D glasses... used with SL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4991B523.9060508@gmail.com> Dale Mahalko wrote: > If you live in the United States, you've probably seen these sheets of > 3D glasses being distributed in supermarkets as part of some "SoBe" > Super Bowl 3D advertising gimmick. FWIW, University of Michigan did an SL viewer patch to support using red-blue anaglyph glasses - see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2972 for the latest news. Presumably the right color tint change would work for the superbowl glasses. Cheers, Vex From dmahalko at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 11:15:21 2009 From: dmahalko at gmail.com (Dale Mahalko) Date: Tue Feb 10 11:15:24 2009 Subject: [sldev] Does SL connect into Internet2 ? Message-ID: It appears that PK-12 public schools in Wisconsin could connect into the hyperspeed Internet2 project fairly inexpensively. The big problem for me is figuring out how this might be useful for a public school since it is primarily a research network. What exactly are we going to use it for? It would be nice if someday SL could be used in a school computer lab setting, but I've often said on here how this is impossible due to the lack of proxy cache support (e.g. squid) and that due to E-Rate funding we are limited to only 3 megabit of general Internet bandwidth for the entire school. Internet2 would be a way around this. So if SL is demanding 500 kilobit per lab PC for good performance, that is fine -- if SL can come in over I2. Heck, with I2 as a way to get onto SL, we could have 50 megabit per PC out to SL, in a lab of 30 machines and still have no upper bandwidth limit problems. Though I may need to install a new 10 gigabit school network backbone to handle all this, in addition to the normal file server traffic... ;-) - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090210/45909c85/attachment.htm From jhurliman at jhurliman.org Tue Feb 10 16:40:34 2009 From: jhurliman at jhurliman.org (John Hurliman) Date: Tue Feb 10 16:40:37 2009 Subject: [sldev] Does SL connect into Internet2 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about running an OpenSim grid inside the Internet2 network? John On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > It appears that PK-12 public schools in Wisconsin could connect into the > hyperspeed Internet2 project fairly inexpensively. > > The big problem for me is figuring out how this might be useful for a > public school since it is primarily a research network. What exactly are we > going to use it for? > > > It would be nice if someday SL could be used in a school computer lab > setting, but I've often said on here how this is impossible due to the lack > of proxy cache support (e.g. squid) and that due to E-Rate funding we are > limited to only 3 megabit of general Internet bandwidth for the entire > school. > > Internet2 would be a way around this. So if SL is demanding 500 kilobit per > lab PC for good performance, that is fine -- if SL can come in over I2. > > Heck, with I2 as a way to get onto SL, we could have 50 megabit per PC out > to SL, in a lab of 30 machines and still have no upper bandwidth limit > problems. > > > Though I may need to install a new 10 gigabit school network backbone to > handle all this, in addition to the normal file server traffic... ;-) > > - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090210/52820a79/attachment.htm From dmahalko at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 19:27:53 2009 From: dmahalko at gmail.com (Dale Mahalko) Date: Tue Feb 10 19:27:57 2009 Subject: [sldev] Does SL connect into Internet2 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmm, I hadn't thought about OpenSim at all. That could be an interesting use for the research network, and would also solve the whole adult/teen grid access problems for educators trying to do things with Second Life. Internet2 would also allow an OpenSim grid to do high-bandwidth experiments that would be considered "just right out" for SL on the regular Internet, such as multiple video streams per parcel, and seeing video across multiple parcels at the same time. I wonder how it would work to create avatars where the head is a flat blank oval and instead shows a 256 kbit video stream of the person's real face streamed live on the avatar... and you have say 40 of these people wandering around with a live face-stream all at the same time in a sim (256kb x 40 = 10 megabits). Build a wireless head-mount camera-hat that moves with your skull, to keep your face centered on the avatar's head when you look around your office.. It does sound interesting. I'll ask the boss. :-) - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:40 PM, John Hurliman wrote: > What about running an OpenSim grid inside the Internet2 network? > > John > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Dale Mahalko wrote: > >> It appears that PK-12 public schools in Wisconsin could connect into >> the hyperspeed Internet2 project fairly inexpensively. >> >> The big problem for me is figuring out how this might be useful for a >> public school since it is primarily a research network. What exactly are we >> going to use it for? >> >> >> It would be nice if someday SL could be used in a school computer lab >> setting, but I've often said on here how this is impossible due to the lack >> of proxy cache support (e.g. squid) and that due to E-Rate funding we are >> limited to only 3 megabit of general Internet bandwidth for the entire >> school. >> >> Internet2 would be a way around this. So if SL is demanding 500 kilobit >> per lab PC for good performance, that is fine -- if SL can come in over I2. >> >> Heck, with I2 as a way to get onto SL, we could have 50 megabit per PC out >> to SL, in a lab of 30 machines and still have no upper bandwidth limit >> problems. >> >> >> Though I may need to install a new 10 gigabit school network backbone to >> handle all this, in addition to the normal file server traffic... ;-) >> >> - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090210/04b40d82/attachment.htm From soft at lindenlab.com Wed Feb 11 12:01:51 2009 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Soft) Date: Wed Feb 11 12:03:05 2009 Subject: [sldev] Open Source Meeting Thu 2pm Message-ID: Our Thursday open source meetings take place at 2pm. If there is anything you would like on the agenda... have at it! http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda From soft at lindenlab.com Wed Feb 11 12:15:14 2009 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Soft) Date: Wed Feb 11 12:15:20 2009 Subject: [sldev] class3 shaders directory Message-ID: During a previous open source meeting, there was a question about why app_settings/shaders/class3 has only two directories instead of five. This is because the other three directories found in the class2 directory are empty. Is some process broken by not having the other directories? I can drop a placeholder text file in these directories if needed. From takeshich.nakamura at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 00:57:04 2009 From: takeshich.nakamura at gmail.com (Takeshich Nakamura) Date: Thu Feb 12 00:57:08 2009 Subject: [sldev] slviewer on PLAYSTATION3 In-Reply-To: <4991A5BE.4020409@watson.ibm.com> References: <49751C3D.1050805@watson.ibm.com> <4975FE5B.4040203@watson.ibm.com> <49774E5D.50700@watson.ibm.com> <49788543.4050900@watson.ibm.com> <498CA56E.3090401@watson.ibm.com> <4991A5BE.4020409@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: Mike Monkowski ??? > Does it still crash when using the mesa cell driver? Yes. > If so, do you have a stack trace from the debug build ov the viewer? stack_trace.log is shown as follows. ------------------------------ ./secondlife-bin [0x11afd464] ./secondlife-bin [0x11afea64] ./secondlife-bin [0x1042e6b4] ./secondlife-bin [0x1218952c] ./secondlife-bin [0x121895fc] ./secondlife-bin [0x1218adac] [0x100350] ./secondlife-bin [0x100f2208] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e07c] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e2bc] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e31c] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(util_draw_vertex_buffer+0x1b8) [0xf94a334] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(util_gen_mipmap+0x4f0) [0xf954f54] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf799a1c] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(st_generate_mipmap+0xa4) [0xf799e78] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf8b7770] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf8b7904] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(_mesa_TexImage2D+0x440) [0xf760860] /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(glTexImage2D+0x8c) [0xf681860] ./secondlife-bin [0x11dad894] ./secondlife-bin [0x11db0720] ./secondlife-bin [0x11daffc4] ./secondlife-bin [0x115cb60c] ./secondlife-bin [0x118428e8] ./secondlife-bin [0x1042b920] ./secondlife-bin [0x1041ea70] ./secondlife-bin [0x11afdbfc] ./secondlife-bin [0x11afd1dc] /lib/libc.so.6 [0xe3d2380] /lib/libc.so.6 [0xe3d25c4] ----------- Takeshich Nakamura takeshich.nakamura@gmail.com From monkowsk at watson.ibm.com Thu Feb 12 07:51:55 2009 From: monkowsk at watson.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Thu Feb 12 07:52:02 2009 Subject: [sldev] slviewer on PLAYSTATION3 In-Reply-To: References: <49751C3D.1050805@watson.ibm.com> <4975FE5B.4040203@watson.ibm.com> <49774E5D.50700@watson.ibm.com> <49788543.4050900@watson.ibm.com> <498CA56E.3090401@watson.ibm.com> <4991A5BE.4020409@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <4994459B.60808@watson.ibm.com> I'm surprised that the debug build does not give source file names and line numbers in the stack trace. I understand that you can't build a debug version of the driver, but the debug version of the viewer should give more information in the trace. Are you sure you're running the debug version? Mike Takeshich Nakamura wrote: > Mike Monkowski ??? > >>Does it still crash when using the mesa cell driver? > > > Yes. > > >>If so, do you have a stack trace from the debug build ov the viewer? > > > stack_trace.log is shown as follows. > ------------------------------ > ./secondlife-bin [0x11afd464] > ./secondlife-bin [0x11afea64] > ./secondlife-bin [0x1042e6b4] > ./secondlife-bin [0x1218952c] > ./secondlife-bin [0x121895fc] > ./secondlife-bin [0x1218adac] > [0x100350] > ./secondlife-bin [0x100f2208] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e07c] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e2bc] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e31c] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(util_draw_vertex_buffer+0x1b8) [0xf94a334] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(util_gen_mipmap+0x4f0) [0xf954f54] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf799a1c] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(st_generate_mipmap+0xa4) [0xf799e78] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf8b7770] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf8b7904] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(_mesa_TexImage2D+0x440) [0xf760860] > /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(glTexImage2D+0x8c) [0xf681860] > ./secondlife-bin [0x11dad894] > ./secondlife-bin [0x11db0720] > ./secondlife-bin [0x11daffc4] > ./secondlife-bin [0x115cb60c] > ./secondlife-bin [0x118428e8] > ./secondlife-bin [0x1042b920] > ./secondlife-bin [0x1041ea70] > ./secondlife-bin [0x11afdbfc] > ./secondlife-bin [0x11afd1dc] > /lib/libc.so.6 [0xe3d2380] > /lib/libc.so.6 [0xe3d25c4] > > > ----------- > Takeshich Nakamura > takeshich.nakamura@gmail.com > > From armin.weatherwax at googlemail.com Thu Feb 12 15:05:49 2009 From: armin.weatherwax at googlemail.com (Armin Weatherwax) Date: Thu Feb 12 15:06:00 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] passing a LLMediaObserver::onMediaMetaInfoChange event from llmediaimplwhatsoever to llviewermedia does just nothing Message-ID: <200902130005.49658.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> Hi, I'm trying to pass audio stream meta data (Artist, Title) to llviewermedia and for that I want to inform llviewermedia that meta data was changed (if so). so my llmediaimpl does in its updateMedia() LLMediaEvent event( this ); mEventEmitter.update( &LLMediaObserver::onMediaMetaInfoChange, event ); llmediaobserver has a virtual void onMediaMetaInfoChange( const EventType& event_in ) { } and llviewermedia has a void onMediaMetaInfoChange(const EventType& event_in); ... but the void onMediaMetaInfoChange does never trigger. So what I'm missing to let it work ? thanks in advance :) Armin From jave.zhou at sinewavecompany.com Thu Feb 12 18:30:42 2009 From: jave.zhou at sinewavecompany.com (Jave Zhou) Date: Thu Feb 12 18:31:22 2009 Subject: [sldev] Packaging the build into an installer like the Second Life Install file Message-ID: <97225A894F6A4799A49028C961FAE5A0@sinewave03> Hi,Guys I`m a newbie. I build the open SL view (ver RC-1.22.9), now I want to package the build into an installer like the Second Life Install file. What`s the name of packaging software used by Second Life ? Best Wishes, Jave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090213/af3e934f/attachment.htm From trent.mavendorf at googlemail.com Thu Feb 12 21:44:57 2009 From: trent.mavendorf at googlemail.com (Trent Mavendorf) Date: Thu Feb 12 21:45:01 2009 Subject: [sldev] Packaging the build into an installer like the Second Life Install file In-Reply-To: <97225A894F6A4799A49028C961FAE5A0@sinewave03> References: <97225A894F6A4799A49028C961FAE5A0@sinewave03> Message-ID: it's the NSIS installer: http://nsis.sourceforge.net 2009/2/13 Jave Zhou > > Hi,Guys > I`m a newbie. I build the open SL view (ver RC-1.22.9), now I want to > package the build into an installer like the Second Life Install > file. What`s the name of packaging software used by Second Life ? > > > Best Wishes, > Jave > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090213/101b8d66/attachment.htm From jpirkola at gmail.com Sat Feb 14 01:16:57 2009 From: jpirkola at gmail.com (Jani Pirkola) Date: Sat Feb 14 01:17:02 2009 Subject: [sldev] [META] TextSL a Second Life client for Visually Impaired and Blind Users Message-ID: <6c9557390902140116na9a428cmc89b0e421a4e302b@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, TextSL project is looking for devs, check info from here: http://www.cybertechnews.org/?p=747 http://www.cybertechnews.org/?p=709 and http://textsl.org/ Best regards, Jani Pirkola -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090214/de96b162/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Sat Feb 14 05:26:27 2009 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sat Feb 14 05:26:32 2009 Subject: [sldev] [META] TextSL a Second Life client for Visually Impaired and Blind Users In-Reply-To: <6c9557390902140116na9a428cmc89b0e421a4e302b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6c9557390902140116na9a428cmc89b0e421a4e302b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ebfc1100902140526q7fc5e03u56057aba9d30986b@mail.gmail.com> Is there much difference between this and something like SLeek or TestClient? On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Jani Pirkola wrote: > Dear all, > > TextSL project is looking for devs, check info from here: > http://www.cybertechnews.org/?p=747 > http://www.cybertechnews.org/?p=709 > and http://textsl.org/ > > > Best regards, > Jani Pirkola > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From me at signpostmarv.name Sat Feb 14 07:50:23 2009 From: me at signpostmarv.name (SignpostMarv Martin) Date: Sat Feb 14 07:50:38 2009 Subject: [sldev] Does SL connect into Internet2 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4996E83F.5050705@signpostmarv.name> Dale Mahalko wrote: > Hmm, I hadn't thought about OpenSim at all. That could be an > interesting use for the research network, and would also solve the > whole adult/teen grid access problems for educators trying to do > things with Second Life. > > Internet2 would also allow an OpenSim grid to do > high-bandwidth experiments that would be considered "just right out" > for SL on the regular Internet, such as multiple video streams per > parcel, and seeing video across multiple parcels at the same time. > > I wonder how it would work to create avatars where the head is a flat > blank oval and instead shows a 256 kbit video stream of the person's > real face streamed live on the avatar... and you have say 40 of these > people wandering around with a live face-stream all at the same time > in a sim (256kb x 40 = 10 megabits). A generic sculptie, or mapping the stream onto a rebaked avatar texture would be more immersive than a flat blank oval. ~ Marv. > Build a wireless head-mount camera-hat that moves with your skull, to > keep your face centered on the avatar's head when you look around your > office.. > > > It does sound interesting. I'll ask the boss. :-) > > - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:40 PM, John Hurliman > > wrote: > > What about running an OpenSim grid inside the Internet2 network? > > John > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Dale Mahalko > wrote: > > It appears that PK-12 public schools in Wisconsin could > connect into the hyperspeed Internet2 project fairly > inexpensively. > > The big problem for me is figuring out how this might be > useful for a public school since it is primarily a research > network. What exactly are we going to use it for? > > > It would be nice if someday SL could be used in a school > computer lab setting, but I've often said on here how this is > impossible due to the lack of proxy cache support (e.g. squid) > and that due to E-Rate funding we are limited to only 3 > megabit of general Internet bandwidth for the entire school. > > Internet2 would be a way around this. So if SL is > demanding 500 kilobit per lab PC for good performance, that is > fine -- if SL can come in over I2. > > Heck, with I2 as a way to get onto SL, we could have 50 > megabit per PC out to SL, in a lab of 30 machines and still > have no upper bandwidth limit problems. > > > Though I may need to install a new 10 gigabit school network > backbone to handle all this, in addition to the normal file > server traffic... ;-) > > - Scalar Tardis / Dale Mahalko > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3244 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090214/cea66e07/smime.bin From takeshich.nakamura at gmail.com Sat Feb 14 14:46:20 2009 From: takeshich.nakamura at gmail.com (Takeshich Nakamura) Date: Sat Feb 14 14:46:20 2009 Subject: [sldev] slviewer on PLAYSTATION3 In-Reply-To: <4994459B.60808@watson.ibm.com> References: <49751C3D.1050805@watson.ibm.com> <4975FE5B.4040203@watson.ibm.com> <49774E5D.50700@watson.ibm.com> <49788543.4050900@watson.ibm.com> <498CA56E.3090401@watson.ibm.com> <4991A5BE.4020409@watson.ibm.com> <4994459B.60808@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: Mike Monkowski ??? > I'm surprised that the debug build does not give source file names and > line numbers in the stack trace. I understand that you can't build a > debug version of the driver, but the debug version of the viewer should > give more information in the trace. Are you sure you're running the > debug version? Yes,sure I'm running the debug version. I'm surprised too and I checked the source. I found that LL_ELFBIN is null in llappviewerlinux.cpp. The path of ELFIO.h is /usr/local/include,not /usr/local/include/ELFIO. It is not possible to find the file in FindELFIO.cmake,the value of LL_ELFBIN is empty. Therefore the debug version of the viewer could not give detail information in the trace. I corrected llappviewerlinux.cpp and FindELFIO.cmake. I re-compiled.The viewer could give detail information int the trace. stack_trace.log is shown as follows: 0: ELF(do_elfio_glibc_backtrace()+0x3ec) [0x11b03e9c] 1: ELF(LLAppViewerLinux::handleSyncCrashTrace()+0x1c) [0x11b058a8] 2: ELF(LLAppViewer::handleSyncViewerCrash()+0x44) [0x10434764] 3: ELF(LLApp::runSyncErrorHandler()+0x3c) [0x12190370] 4: ELF(LLApp::setError()+0x30) [0x12190440] 5: ELF(default_unix_signal_handler(int, siginfo*, void*)+0xc94) [0x12191bf0] 6: [0x100350] 7: ./secondlife-bin [0x100f4e08] 8: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e07c] 9: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e2bc] 10: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf62e31c] 11: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(util_draw_vertex_buffer+0x1b8) [0xf94a334] 12: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(util_gen_mipmap+0x4f0) [0xf954f54] 13: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf799a1c] 14: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(st_generate_mipmap+0xa4) [0xf799e78] 15: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf8b7770] 16: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1 [0xf8b7904] 17: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(_mesa_TexImage2D+0x440) [0xf760860] 18: /home/takeshich/mesacell/mesa/lib/libGL.so.1(glTexImage2D+0x8c) [0xf681860] 19: ELF(LLImageGL::setImage(unsigned char const*, int)+0x550) [0x11db46d8] 20: ELF(LLImageGL::createGLTexture(int, unsigned char const*, int, int)+0x730) [0x11db7564] 21: ELF(LLImageGL::createGLTexture(int, LLImageRaw const*, int)+0x77c) [0x11db6e08] 22: ELF(LLViewerImage::initClass()+0x350) [0x115d16bc] 23: ELF(LLViewerWindow::LLViewerWindow(std::string const&, std::string const&, int, int, int, int, int, int)+0x1db4) [0x11848998] 24: ELF(LLAppViewer::initWindow()+0x444) [0x104319d0] 25: ELF(LLAppViewer::init()+0x15d0) [0x10424b20] 26: ELF(LLAppViewerLinux::init()+0x24) [0x11b04a40] 27: ELF(main+0x10c) [0x11b0328c] 28: /lib/libc.so.6 [0xe3d2380] 29: /lib/libc.so.6 [0xe3d25c4] ----------- Takeshich Nakamura takeshich.nakamura@gmail.com From GordonWendt at gmail.com Sat Feb 14 23:12:57 2009 From: GordonWendt at gmail.com (Gordon Wendt) Date: Sat Feb 14 23:12:59 2009 Subject: [sldev] "disappeared issues" Message-ID: <493033a70902142312s51dea846i62d471b6552b9b3@mail.gmail.com> I just wanted to bring people's attention to a new project that I have begun work on that I think is relative to development in SL and to this list. I have begun to create a repository of publicly available information from the jira-notify list and the RSS feeds of the content of issues that have been later "disappeared" into SEC. Since issues originally created into SEC aren't publicly reported unless the reporter or a Linden discloses them (both unlikely) it doesn't contain any "privately" reported data only an aggragate version of publicly available logs. Since this is currently an as I see them project I expect growth to be very slow however the second part of this is to ask anyone who see's an issue that fits to buzz me with the original issue ID and/or the original report info to let me know or if they want to add it directly to the page at https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Gordon_Wendt/disappeared. -G.W. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090215/bb344e65/attachment.htm From dimentox at dimentox.com Sun Feb 15 06:00:43 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Sun Feb 15 06:00:48 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. Message-ID: Linden lab, Can we get a script to client channel.. Example usage.. Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim via a object they avatar wears aka dcs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090215/f4bb3023/attachment.htm From gareth at garethnelson.com Sun Feb 15 06:32:34 2009 From: gareth at garethnelson.com (Gareth Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 15 06:32:40 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ebfc1100902150632r6e5cf8cbyd03c7c4253b160c7@mail.gmail.com> Any channel can be used like this if the HUD object uses a listener On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Dimentox wrote: > Linden lab, > > Can we get a script to client channel.. > > Example usage.. > > Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim via a > object they avatar wears aka dcs. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From dimentox at dimentox.com Sun Feb 15 06:44:10 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Sun Feb 15 06:44:15 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <4ebfc1100902150632r6e5cf8cbyd03c7c4253b160c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ebfc1100902150632r6e5cf8cbyd03c7c4253b160c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: i am talking to client ui not in game hud On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > Any channel can be used like this if the HUD object uses a listener > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Dimentox wrote: > > Linden lab, > > > > Can we get a script to client channel.. > > > > Example usage.. > > > > Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim > via a > > object they avatar wears aka dcs. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > > > > -- > Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090215/16b23143/attachment.htm From tony.dodd at btinternet.com Sun Feb 15 07:14:51 2009 From: tony.dodd at btinternet.com (Tony Dodd) Date: Sun Feb 15 07:15:03 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: <4ebfc1100902150632r6e5cf8cbyd03c7c4253b160c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2234DEB2C5F14401BE428EA4C1A0FA67@XPS> How is that different from what Restrained Life does using llOwnerSay? Maldoror Bowman _____ From: sldev-bounces@lists.secondlife.com [mailto:sldev-bounces@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Dimentox Sent: 15 February 2009 14:44 To: Gareth Nelson Cc: Second Life Developer Mailing List Subject: Re: [sldev] Script to client channel. i am talking to client ui not in game hud On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: Any channel can be used like this if the HUD object uses a listener On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Dimentox wrote: > Linden lab, > > Can we get a script to client channel.. > > Example usage.. > > Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim via a > object they avatar wears aka dcs. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090215/e39caf0b/attachment.htm From dimentox at dimentox.com Sun Feb 15 08:14:52 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Sun Feb 15 08:14:56 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <2234DEB2C5F14401BE428EA4C1A0FA67@XPS> References: <4ebfc1100902150632r6e5cf8cbyd03c7c4253b160c7@mail.gmail.com> <2234DEB2C5F14401BE428EA4C1A0FA67@XPS> Message-ID: Transparency from a non modified client On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Tony Dodd wrote: > How is that different from what Restrained Life does using llOwnerSay? > > Maldoror Bowman > > ------------------------------ > *From:* sldev-bounces@lists.secondlife.com [mailto: > sldev-bounces@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Dimentox > *Sent:* 15 February 2009 14:44 > *To:* Gareth Nelson > *Cc:* Second Life Developer Mailing List > *Subject:* Re: [sldev] Script to client channel. > > > i am talking to client ui not in game hud > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote: > >> Any channel can be used like this if the HUD object uses a listener >> >> On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Dimentox wrote: >> > Linden lab, >> > >> > Can we get a script to client channel.. >> > >> > Example usage.. >> > >> > Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim >> via a >> > object they avatar wears aka dcs. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> > privileges >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. >> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090215/fdbb566d/attachment-0001.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 09:42:18 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sun Feb 15 09:42:23 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: <4ebfc1100902150632r6e5cf8cbyd03c7c4253b160c7@mail.gmail.com> <2234DEB2C5F14401BE428EA4C1A0FA67@XPS> Message-ID: It sounds like what you're looking for is client-side scripting. Because without a script on the client side there's nothing for the in- world object to communicate *with*. From dimentox at dimentox.com Sun Feb 15 09:59:08 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Sun Feb 15 09:59:11 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: <4ebfc1100902150632r6e5cf8cbyd03c7c4253b160c7@mail.gmail.com> <2234DEB2C5F14401BE428EA4C1A0FA67@XPS> Message-ID: Right client to inworld... So i can take my huds out of game an in the client On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Argent Stonecutter < secret.argent@gmail.com> wrote: > It sounds like what you're looking for is client-side scripting. Because > without a script on the client side there's nothing for the in-world object > to communicate *with*. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090215/b2f95b1b/attachment.htm From jacek.antonelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 11:31:41 2009 From: jacek.antonelli at gmail.com (Jacek Antonelli) Date: Sun Feb 15 11:31:44 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Dimentox wrote: > Linden lab, > > Can we get a script to client channel.. > > Example usage.. > > Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim via a > object they avatar wears aka dcs. I'm emphatically in favor of this, too. Looking toward the future, it would open up an extraordinary variety of client-side functionality. A few examples off the top of my head: * Better HUDs and script controls (imagine a script dialogue with sliders, text entry, color pickers, etc. instead of those lame 12 buttons!) * Better integration between scripted products and the viewer (e.g. RestrainedLife, but without relying on a hacky work-around) * Scripted objects that broadcast text descriptions to be read via text-to-speech for the benefit of non-sighted users. Unfortunately, this is a server side change, so the community can't implement it (except on OpenSim), and it would be mostly useless to Linden Lab currently, so there's not much chance of them implementing it either. So I try not to get my hopes up about things like this. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, though. - Jacek From ordinal.malaprop at fastmail.fm Sun Feb 15 11:58:55 2009 From: ordinal.malaprop at fastmail.fm (ordinal.malaprop@fastmail.fm) Date: Sun Feb 15 11:58:59 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> I am generally in favour of allowing more interaction between LSL and the client, but I have to say that for something as basic and general as a HUD, the method would give me pause. There are obviously specialised purposes such as RestrainedLife and likely others where the only people using them will have a specialised client, but, really, HUDs in general should have either be inworld or have a generic set of code behind them - otherwise we may see a horrible fragmentation of different clients implementing things in different ways, and to be honest, speaking as a manufacturer of inworld items, unless the functionality used is in the main LL client I will not touch it. What we _really_ need is a thorough overhaul of scriptable UI methods so that scripts can expect consistent results between clients, whether that means some sort of toolkit along the lines of Tk, or perhaps web forms - but chat commands and blue button windows are not sufficient. At the very least we need a way to enter text in a dialog box. The client-side result of those UI methods could certainly be rewritten in different clients. On 15 Feb 2009, at 19:31, Jacek Antonelli wrote: > On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Dimentox > wrote: >> Linden lab, >> >> Can we get a script to client channel.. >> >> Example usage.. >> >> Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat >> sim via a >> object they avatar wears aka dcs. > > I'm emphatically in favor of this, too. Looking toward the future, it > would open up an extraordinary variety of client-side functionality. A > few examples off the top of my head: > > * Better HUDs and script controls (imagine a script dialogue with > sliders, text entry, color pickers, etc. instead of those lame 12 > buttons!) > * Better integration between scripted products and the viewer (e.g. > RestrainedLife, but without relying on a hacky work-around) > * Scripted objects that broadcast text descriptions to be read via > text-to-speech for the benefit of non-sighted users. > > Unfortunately, this is a server side change, so the community can't > implement it (except on OpenSim), and it would be mostly useless to > Linden Lab currently, so there's not much chance of them implementing > it either. > > So I try not to get my hopes up about things like this. Maybe I'll be > pleasantly surprised, though. > > - Jacek > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From dimentox at dimentox.com Sun Feb 15 12:25:53 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Sun Feb 15 12:25:57 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> References: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: Well the method i am wanting is for mmorpg design and client.. So i would need granual control of the client etc... I have thought of just bypassing SL and having the client contact my servers and everything is done from client to my servers completely bypassing the in world scripting. but then why have sl in the first place? On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 1:58 PM, wrote: > I am generally in favour of allowing more interaction between LSL and the > client, but I have to say that for something as basic and general as a HUD, > the method would give me pause. > > There are obviously specialised purposes such as RestrainedLife and likely > others where the only people using them will have a specialised client, but, > really, HUDs in general should have either be inworld or have a generic set > of code behind them - otherwise we may see a horrible fragmentation of > different clients implementing things in different ways, and to be honest, > speaking as a manufacturer of inworld items, unless the functionality used > is in the main LL client I will not touch it. > > What we _really_ need is a thorough overhaul of scriptable UI methods so > that scripts can expect consistent results between clients, whether that > means some sort of toolkit along the lines of Tk, or perhaps web forms - but > chat commands and blue button windows are not sufficient. At the very least > we need a way to enter text in a dialog box. The client-side result of those > UI methods could certainly be rewritten in different clients. > > > On 15 Feb 2009, at 19:31, Jacek Antonelli wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Dimentox wrote: >> >>> Linden lab, >>> >>> Can we get a script to client channel.. >>> >>> Example usage.. >>> >>> Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim >>> via a >>> object they avatar wears aka dcs. >>> >> >> I'm emphatically in favor of this, too. Looking toward the future, it >> would open up an extraordinary variety of client-side functionality. A >> few examples off the top of my head: >> >> * Better HUDs and script controls (imagine a script dialogue with >> sliders, text entry, color pickers, etc. instead of those lame 12 >> buttons!) >> * Better integration between scripted products and the viewer (e.g. >> RestrainedLife, but without relying on a hacky work-around) >> * Scripted objects that broadcast text descriptions to be read via >> text-to-speech for the benefit of non-sighted users. >> >> Unfortunately, this is a server side change, so the community can't >> implement it (except on OpenSim), and it would be mostly useless to >> Linden Lab currently, so there's not much chance of them implementing >> it either. >> >> So I try not to get my hopes up about things like this. Maybe I'll be >> pleasantly surprised, though. >> >> - Jacek >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090215/25e27ee1/attachment.htm From escort.defarge at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 23:01:38 2009 From: escort.defarge at gmail.com (Escort DeFarge) Date: Sun Feb 15 23:01:43 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <49990EB9.20202@gmail.com> References: <49990EB9.20202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49990F52.2090909@gmail.com> Not sure why you need any server-side change, here. As long as the recipient object in-world is listening for a message on the right channel and from the right sender, I can't see why you can't generate that in the viewer client, send it to your in-world script and it would work. If you needed to set up the listen, send a touch first...? That is, after all, how dialogs work anyhow. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but I'm not sure I see the issue. /esc From lenglish5 at cox.net Sun Feb 15 23:19:06 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Sun Feb 15 23:19:08 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4999136A.2010702@cox.net> Dimentox wrote: > Linden lab, > > Can we get a script to client channel.. > > Example usage.. > > Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim > via a object they avatar wears aka dcs. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Seems to me that the Browser HUD is the logical place to start. What features does THIS lack, and how would you make it better? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Browser_HUD Remember: its already in the client, just not all the connections are active yet (as far as I know). L From sldev at free.fr Mon Feb 16 00:00:40 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Mon Feb 16 00:00:52 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> References: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <20090216090040.e79423e5.sldev@free.fr> On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:58:55 +0000, ordinal.malaprop@fastmail.fm wrote: > I am generally in favour of allowing more interaction between LSL and > the client, but I have to say that for something as basic and general > as a HUD, the method would give me pause. > > .../... > > What we _really_ need is a thorough overhaul of scriptable UI methods > so that scripts can expect consistent results between clients, whether > that means some sort of toolkit along the lines of Tk, or perhaps web > forms - but chat commands and blue button windows are not sufficient. > At the very least we need a way to enter text in a dialog box. Something like this is apparently already planned: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlTextBox Henri. From lenglish5 at cox.net Mon Feb 16 00:13:00 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Mon Feb 16 00:13:02 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <20090216090040.e79423e5.sldev@free.fr> References: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> <20090216090040.e79423e5.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <4999200C.5050703@cox.net> Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:58:55 +0000, ordinal.malaprop@fastmail.fm wrote: > > >> I am generally in favour of allowing more interaction between LSL and >> the client, but I have to say that for something as basic and general >> as a HUD, the method would give me pause. >> >> .../... >> >> What we _really_ need is a thorough overhaul of scriptable UI methods >> so that scripts can expect consistent results between clients, whether >> that means some sort of toolkit along the lines of Tk, or perhaps web >> forms - but chat commands and blue button windows are not sufficient. >> At the very least we need a way to enter text in a dialog box. >> > > Something like this is apparently already planned: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlTextBox > > Both llTextBox and llFloaterHUD (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Browser_HUD) have one flaw, IMHO: they use the existing chat channels (which are all public) to pass information back and forth. Given that a HUD can only be used by one avatar at a time, it seems worthwhile to implement a set of private HUD channels that offer a direct HUD <=> client connection without rebroadcast to the rest of the sim. A given HUD could reserve one or more channels that can't be intercepted by other prims/avatars, thereby providing a greater level of privacy and virtually no chance of spoofing the server or client unless you have physical access to the network connections. Lawson From chaosstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 00:26:22 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Mon Feb 16 00:26:34 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <4999200C.5050703@cox.net> References: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> <20090216090040.e79423e5.sldev@free.fr> <4999200C.5050703@cox.net> Message-ID: <9bb32d430902160026m6e807d63t69c0f90c4195dbf3@mail.gmail.com> The main issue with enhanced lsl-to-client communication, like in RestrainedLife that was mentioned as an example, is.. The change of behavior runs deep. RestrainedLife is not about the UI, but direct client behavior for all sorts of things. All effects and behavior that one'd want to be executed in the client via messages coming from in-world would need to be implemented, and/or at least selecteable. You'd have to have a either predefined messages and commands with hardcoded effects, or some kind of template system with which to program the viewer. Added to that, the viewer'd need to allow for all kinds of implemented functionality to be executed, given that the change'd not be for a specifc system, but for people to build their own systems on (Again, RestrainedLife was an example). The viewer architecture isn't that easy. Implementing such a templating would be a huge undertaking, and I see a huge potential for abuse as well if there is some kind of default. IMO the best solution for such quite deep changes of behavior is to simply make a modified client for a specifc system, like RestrainedLife is today. It's by far the more secure approach, if you want such enhanced client functionality triggered by in-world objects. When it comes to UI changes only, I also think the other way around would be much nicer...create an UI that is scriptable via a language like LUA. World Of Warcraft is an -excellent- example what people can do with a programmable LUA UI. On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 09:13, Lawson English wrote: > Henri Beauchamp wrote: >> >> On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:58:55 +0000, ordinal.malaprop@fastmail.fm wrote: >> >> >>> >>> I am generally in favour of allowing more interaction between LSL and >>> the client, but I have to say that for something as basic and general as a >>> HUD, the method would give me pause. >>> >>> .../... >>> >>> What we _really_ need is a thorough overhaul of scriptable UI methods so >>> that scripts can expect consistent results between clients, whether that >>> means some sort of toolkit along the lines of Tk, or perhaps web forms - >>> but chat commands and blue button windows are not sufficient. At the very >>> least we need a way to enter text in a dialog box. >>> >> >> Something like this is apparently already planned: >> https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlTextBox >> >> > > > Both llTextBox and llFloaterHUD > (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Browser_HUD) have one flaw, IMHO: > > they use the existing chat channels (which are all public) to pass > information back and forth. Given that a HUD can only be used by one avatar > at a time, it seems worthwhile to implement a set of private HUD channels > that offer a direct HUD <=> client connection without rebroadcast to the > rest of the sim. A given HUD could reserve one or more channels that can't > be intercepted by other prims/avatars, thereby providing a greater level of > privacy and virtually no chance of spoofing the server or client unless you > have physical access to the network connections. > > Lawson > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From lenglish5 at cox.net Mon Feb 16 01:20:31 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Mon Feb 16 01:20:36 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <9bb32d430902160026m6e807d63t69c0f90c4195dbf3@mail.gmail.com> References: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> <20090216090040.e79423e5.sldev@free.fr> <4999200C.5050703@cox.net> <9bb32d430902160026m6e807d63t69c0f90c4195dbf3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49992FDF.4050807@cox.net> Ambrosia wrote: > The main issue with enhanced lsl-to-client communication, like in > RestrainedLife that was mentioned as an example, is.. > > The change of behavior runs deep. RestrainedLife is not about the UI, > but direct client behavior for all sorts of things. > All effects and behavior that one'd want to be executed in the client > via messages coming from in-world would need to be implemented, and/or > at least selecteable. You'd have to have a either predefined messages > and commands with hardcoded effects, or some kind of template system > with which to program the viewer. > > Added to that, the viewer'd need to allow for all kinds of implemented > functionality to be executed, given that the change'd not be for a > specifc system, but for people to build their own systems on (Again, > RestrainedLife was an example). The viewer architecture isn't that > easy. Implementing such a templating would be a huge undertaking, and > I see a huge potential for abuse as well if there is some kind of > default. > > IMO the best solution for such quite deep changes of behavior is to > simply make a modified client for a specifc system, like > RestrainedLife is today. It's by far the more secure approach, if you > want such enhanced client functionality triggered by in-world objects. > > > When it comes to UI changes only, I also think the other way around > would be much nicer...create an UI that is scriptable via a language > like LUA. > World Of Warcraft is an -excellent- example what people can do with a > programmable LUA UI. > The model I'm planning on using for pyogp is the AppleEvents model where GUIs and scripts call the same internal message handlers (where appropriate). That way, any viewer that implements a login command via GUI should be able to handle the same command via script. For simple user interactions (e.g. anything with a simple menu interface), this model is paretty easy to implement and extremely powerful.... And its language-neutral. A lua-scripted client OK, but you'd need to redesign the whole thing from scratch to make it truly usable, IMHO. If you're going to do that, rewrite it in ObjectiveC and expose the client innards in a way that a cross-platform f-script or equivalent language could use. L. From sldev at free.fr Mon Feb 16 02:18:33 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Mon Feb 16 02:18:44 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <4999200C.5050703@cox.net> References: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> <20090216090040.e79423e5.sldev@free.fr> <4999200C.5050703@cox.net> Message-ID: <20090216111833.5a49e4bd.sldev@free.fr> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 01:13:00 -0700, Lawson English wrote: > Both llTextBox and llFloaterHUD > (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Browser_HUD) have one flaw, IMHO: > > they use the existing chat channels (which are all public) to pass > information back and forth. Given that a HUD can only be used by one > avatar at a time, it seems worthwhile to implement a set of private HUD > channels that offer a direct HUD <=> client connection without > rebroadcast to the rest of the sim. A given HUD could reserve one or > more channels that can't be intercepted by other prims/avatars, thereby > providing a greater level of privacy and virtually no chance of spoofing > the server or client unless you have physical access to the network > connections. What you do not seem to understand is that *all* the scripts only exist server side, be them inside a prim rezzed "in the sim" or be them inside a HUD (the HUD actually also exists in the sim server: it is simply displayed in a different way than "in-world" objects by the viewer)... As such, the data exchange must go through a "channel" between the server and the viewer and cannot stay local to the viewer. Granted, this "channel" could be something else than chat channels (via the messages passed between the viewer and the server), such as what llOwnerSay() (server to client) or llGetAgentLanguage() (client to server) do. This said, menus involve asynchronous communications (while llOwnerSay() and llGetAgentLanguage() are synchronous), so you'd need to implement this new "channel" in an asynchronous way as well, i.e. via a new event (for example: menu_input(key id, string name, string message) { }) and not via a function. As for privacy and chat channels, it is pretty good already, and spoofing is impossible, provided your scripts are properly written, which involves: - listening only to the avatar to whom the menu was presented (this way no other avatar or scripted object can spoof the menu reply). - randomizing the chat channel at the time the menu is created (this way, even the avatar to whom the menu was presented cannot spoof a menu reply and cheat: great for combat systems, BDSM restraints, etc...). Henri. From lenglish5 at cox.net Mon Feb 16 02:29:14 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Mon Feb 16 02:29:17 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <20090216111833.5a49e4bd.sldev@free.fr> References: <105c09f0902151131j5f02733cxfd6374fb51777f1@mail.gmail.com> <856530A3-C3B6-4B55-9A53-3373B2D5F171@fastmail.fm> <20090216090040.e79423e5.sldev@free.fr> <4999200C.5050703@cox.net> <20090216111833.5a49e4bd.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <49993FFA.7010306@cox.net> Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 01:13:00 -0700, Lawson English wrote: > > >> Both llTextBox and llFloaterHUD >> (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LSL_Browser_HUD) have one flaw, IMHO: >> >> they use the existing chat channels (which are all public) to pass >> information back and forth. Given that a HUD can only be used by one >> avatar at a time, it seems worthwhile to implement a set of private HUD >> channels that offer a direct HUD <=> client connection without >> rebroadcast to the rest of the sim. A given HUD could reserve one or >> more channels that can't be intercepted by other prims/avatars, thereby >> providing a greater level of privacy and virtually no chance of spoofing >> the server or client unless you have physical access to the network >> connections. >> > > What you do not seem to understand is that *all* the scripts only exist > server side, be them inside a prim rezzed "in the sim" or be them inside > a HUD (the HUD actually also exists in the sim server: it is simply displayed > in a different way than "in-world" objects by the viewer)... > As such, the data exchange must go through a "channel" between the server and > the viewer and cannot stay local to the viewer. > I'm aware of that. However as you say below: > Granted, this "channel" could be something else than chat channels (via the > messages passed between the viewer and the server), such as what llOwnerSay() > (server to client) or llGetAgentLanguage() (client to server) do. This said, > menus involve asynchronous communications (while llOwnerSay() and > llGetAgentLanguage() are synchronous), so you'd need to implement this new > "channel" in an asynchronous way as well, i.e. via a new event (for example: > menu_input(key id, string name, string message) { }) and not via a function. > Well, the http-in functions show a way to do this already, as do link events. How difficult it would be to add a NEW channel isn't something we can know. I know http-in is taking a while, and CAP-based texture download is taking even longer to implement. > As for privacy and chat channels, it is pretty good already, and spoofing is > impossible, provided your scripts are properly written, which involves: > - listening only to the avatar to whom the menu was presented (this way no > other avatar or scripted object can spoof the menu reply). > - randomizing the chat channel at the time the menu is created (this way, > even the avatar to whom the menu was presented cannot spoof a menu reply > and cheat: great for combat systems, BDSM restraints, etc...). > True but expecting folks to practice defensive programming is a sure recipe for people to NOT practice defensive programming... Remember, Murphy was a programmer (a systems analyst for the military space program, actually). L. From dahliatrimble at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 02:39:04 2009 From: dahliatrimble at gmail.com (Dahlia Trimble) Date: Mon Feb 16 02:39:08 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: how about llOwnerSay() encoded messages? Or how about an off screen hud with prims that display invisible text via llSetText(), but the client could read the text and act on it? I think what you want could be done without server modifications. On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 6:00 AM, Dimentox wrote: > Linden lab, > > Can we get a script to client channel.. > > Example usage.. > > Adding hud in the viewer that updates a persons health in a combat sim via > a object they avatar wears aka dcs. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090216/8596ff77/attachment.htm From thomas.shikami at online.de Mon Feb 16 05:50:16 2009 From: thomas.shikami at online.de (Thomas Shikami) Date: Mon Feb 16 05:50:17 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> Dahlia Trimble wrote: > how about llOwnerSay() encoded messages? > > Or how about an off screen hud with prims that display invisible text > via llSetText(), but the client could read the text and act on it? > > I think what you want could be done without server modifications. I'd go for the server modifications and what I see from the discussion here, the thing wanted is something like llViewerSay(integer channel, string message), which would be sent to the viewer but would not be displayed anywhere in the user interface at all. It's inner workings would be something like llOwnerSay, but modified in a way to not affect the user interface in any way and giving no indication that it was used. Customized viewers would be able to accept these messages from prims the user owns and do some work on it. It could make a big change to RestrainedLife as well, as things could be changed in a way to work like llViewerSay(RLV, "@version=" + (string)random) instead of the visible llOwnerSay("@version=" + (string)random); For that channel, there could be a channel number registry on wiki, where people add their channel number to reach their viewers and optionally publish the protocol that can be used with the viewer. llViewerSay should be restricted like llOwnerSay to only send the message to the owner of the prim. Maybe even restricted like llMapDestination to only work on attachments or during a touch event. The purpose of a llViewerSay is just one simple requirement, the ability to send a message to a customized viewer, without using one of the already existing channels which would be visible in regular viewers. From tony.dodd at btinternet.com Mon Feb 16 07:11:48 2009 From: tony.dodd at btinternet.com (Tony Dodd) Date: Mon Feb 16 07:12:05 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> Message-ID: <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> It seems to me that if it is worth making these changes at all then some effort should be put into engineering a system where users can apply several viewer extensions from different authors. In general, of course, the architecture of the viewer would not support a completely general system like that: but would it be possible to work out some way for both Dimentox and me to provide viewer enhancements that are simple client side controls - nothing as thoroughgoing as Restrained Life - and have reasonable assurance that we are not treading on one another's toes and that users who want to use both our controls will be able to do so? This would mean perhaps installing in llviewermessage.cpp a suitable common dispatcher for viewer messages to a queue of listeners to which extensions could add handlers, or at any rate finding some way to avoid every patch needing to patch the system's downstream message handling. As regards return traffic it is very easy to arrange for the viewer to send a string on some selected channel, though I suppose in the interests of clarity and security it might be better to add client to server messages with a new event type. Maldoror Bowman > -----Original Message----- > From: sldev-bounces@lists.secondlife.com > [mailto:sldev-bounces@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of > Thomas Shikami > Sent: 16 February 2009 13:50 > To: Second Life Developer Mailing List > Subject: Re: [sldev] Script to client channel. > > Dahlia Trimble wrote: > > how about llOwnerSay() encoded messages? > > > > Or how about an off screen hud with prims that display > invisible text > > via llSetText(), but the client could read the text and act on it? > > > > I think what you want could be done without server modifications. > I'd go for the server modifications and what I see from the > discussion here, the thing wanted is something like > llViewerSay(integer channel, string message), which would be > sent to the viewer but would not be displayed anywhere in the > user interface at all. It's inner workings would be something > like llOwnerSay, but modified in a way to not affect the user > interface in any way and giving no indication that it was used. > Customized viewers would be able to accept these messages > from prims the user owns and do some work on it. It could > make a big change to RestrainedLife as well, as things could > be changed in a way to work like llViewerSay(RLV, "@version=" > + (string)random) instead of the visible > llOwnerSay("@version=" + (string)random); For that channel, > there could be a channel number registry on wiki, where > people add their channel number to reach their viewers and > optionally publish the protocol that can be used with the > viewer. llViewerSay should be restricted like llOwnerSay to > only send the message to the owner of the prim. Maybe even > restricted like llMapDestination to only work on attachments > or during a touch event. > The purpose of a llViewerSay is just one simple requirement, > the ability to send a message to a customized viewer, without > using one of the already existing channels which would be > visible in regular viewers. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > From thomas.shikami at online.de Mon Feb 16 09:15:44 2009 From: thomas.shikami at online.de (Thomas Shikami) Date: Mon Feb 16 09:15:42 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> Message-ID: <49999F40.4030404@online.de> Tony Dodd wrote: > As regards return traffic it is very easy to arrange for the viewer to send > a string on some selected channel, though I suppose in the interests of > clarity and security it might be better to add client to server messages > with a new event type. > This secure channel is already in the works, the viewer already supports curl and the server side lsl scripts are about to support http_in. From secret.argent at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 10:50:40 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Mon Feb 16 10:50:50 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <49999F40.4030404@online.de> References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> <49999F40.4030404@online.de> Message-ID: On 2009-02-16, at 11:15, Thomas Shikami wrote: > Tony Dodd wrote: >> As regards return traffic it is very easy to arrange for the viewer >> to send >> a string on some selected channel, though I suppose in the >> interests of >> clarity and security it might be better to add client to server >> messages >> with a new event type. > This secure channel is already in the works, the viewer already > supports curl and the server side lsl scripts are about to support > http_in. I'm not sure how secure a channel this would be. There's nothing that tells a script that a connection via HTTP is coming from the client it's expecting. The chat version can be implemented securely enough for attachments to deal with any attack I can think of, since you can use llOwnerSay() for the script-client path, and verify the chat id==llGetOwner() for the response. If that's not good enough, then going to something with less authentication wouldn't be a step forward. From dimentox at dimentox.com Mon Feb 16 10:59:59 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Mon Feb 16 11:00:57 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> <49999F40.4030404@online.de> Message-ID: Also the ownersay is spammy for people who are not using the custom viewer On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Argent Stonecutter < secret.argent@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2009-02-16, at 11:15, Thomas Shikami wrote: > >> Tony Dodd wrote: >> >>> As regards return traffic it is very easy to arrange for the viewer to >>> send >>> a string on some selected channel, though I suppose in the interests of >>> clarity and security it might be better to add client to server messages >>> with a new event type. >>> >> > This secure channel is already in the works, the viewer already supports >> curl and the server side lsl scripts are about to support http_in. >> > > I'm not sure how secure a channel this would be. There's nothing that tells > a script that a connection via HTTP is coming from the client it's > expecting. The chat version can be implemented securely enough for > attachments to deal with any attack I can think of, since you can use > llOwnerSay() for the script-client path, and verify the chat > id==llGetOwner() for the response. If that's not good enough, then going to > something with less authentication wouldn't be a step forward. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090216/5ae85f51/attachment-0001.htm From marinekelley at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 11:28:15 2009 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Mon Feb 16 11:28:39 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> <49999F40.4030404@online.de> Message-ID: <9e52a8c10902161128t4fe50be6u8558345285505b75@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I totally agree with the idea of a llViewerSay (channel, string) command, and would also support a llGetViewerString (string) to retrieve a string the viewer would have set into the sim at login (exactly like what llGetAgentLanguage does, but for arbitrary strings). That way the scripts will be able to retrieve custom messages in a synchronous and secure manner. On a side note, llOwnerSay (the way I have chosen to channel special RLV messages) is the most secure way to communicate directly with the viewer, the only price being it is spammy for non-RLV users. But good scripts check the viewer first, and stick to a "@version=2222" message and that's it. It's not totally painless, but it's not too annoying I think. If something like llViewerSay was implemented, I would also keep the "@" parsing on llOwnerSay, and also use llViewerSay the same way. Therefore old scripts won't become obsolete, and new scripts will benefit of this feature. Marine 2009/2/16 Dimentox > Also the ownersay is spammy for people who are not using the custom viewer > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Argent Stonecutter < > secret.argent@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 2009-02-16, at 11:15, Thomas Shikami wrote: >> >>> Tony Dodd wrote: >>> >>>> As regards return traffic it is very easy to arrange for the viewer to >>>> send >>>> a string on some selected channel, though I suppose in the interests of >>>> clarity and security it might be better to add client to server messages >>>> with a new event type. >>>> >>> >> This secure channel is already in the works, the viewer already supports >>> curl and the server side lsl scripts are about to support http_in. >>> >> >> I'm not sure how secure a channel this would be. There's nothing that >> tells a script that a connection via HTTP is coming from the client it's >> expecting. The chat version can be implemented securely enough for >> attachments to deal with any attack I can think of, since you can use >> llOwnerSay() for the script-client path, and verify the chat >> id==llGetOwner() for the response. If that's not good enough, then going to >> something with less authentication wouldn't be a step forward. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090216/dc653876/attachment.htm From dahliatrimble at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 11:45:40 2009 From: dahliatrimble at gmail.com (Dahlia Trimble) Date: Mon Feb 16 11:45:43 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> <49999F40.4030404@online.de> Message-ID: The ownersay method doesn't need to be spammy to non-custom viewer users, the scripts that format the special ownersay messages could be triggered by the custom viewer only by saying an enable message on a special channel when an object containing the script is discovered, perhaps being discovered by a special texture UUID or some other uncommon marker. Or a prim bearing a special texture could be sent a touch event which could initiate special communication. I still think this can be accomplished without server modifications. On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Dimentox wrote: > Also the ownersay is spammy for people who are not using the custom viewer > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Argent Stonecutter < > secret.argent@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 2009-02-16, at 11:15, Thomas Shikami wrote: >> >>> Tony Dodd wrote: >>> >>>> As regards return traffic it is very easy to arrange for the viewer to >>>> send >>>> a string on some selected channel, though I suppose in the interests of >>>> clarity and security it might be better to add client to server messages >>>> with a new event type. >>>> >>> >> This secure channel is already in the works, the viewer already supports >>> curl and the server side lsl scripts are about to support http_in. >>> >> >> I'm not sure how secure a channel this would be. There's nothing that >> tells a script that a connection via HTTP is coming from the client it's >> expecting. The chat version can be implemented securely enough for >> attachments to deal with any attack I can think of, since you can use >> llOwnerSay() for the script-client path, and verify the chat >> id==llGetOwner() for the response. If that's not good enough, then going to >> something with less authentication wouldn't be a step forward. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090216/5ae05741/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 13:14:34 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Mon Feb 16 13:14:40 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> <49999F40.4030404@online.de> Message-ID: <729681B9-236B-4AB0-B54F-549634FA58E6@gmail.com> On 2009-02-16, at 12:59, Dimentox wrote: > Also the ownersay is spammy for people who are not using the custom > viewer If they're not using the custom viewer they'll see a single message like "$init$74236478" when they attach, the viewer won't respond with "/74236478 $ok$" (or whatever the protocol you come up with does) and that'll be it. From hakushakukun at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 15:34:00 2009 From: hakushakukun at gmail.com (Adric R) Date: Mon Feb 16 15:34:21 2009 Subject: [sldev] Re: SLDev Digest, Vol 26, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <20090216200614.41C62113A38@stupor.lindenlab.com> References: <20090216200614.41C62113A38@stupor.lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <781e4b420902161534y6ba835dt1e3f134d940173c1@mail.gmail.com> llViewerSay sounds like the only sane suggestion I've read thus far. Benefits: 1. Not a hack. 2. Usable by multiple clients, doesn't interfere with clients that don't use it. 3. Ease of access. No need for people to learn your system for tricking the viewer into supporting the feature you need. 4. More trustworthy. 5. Some as-of-now unknown future feature will rock because this was implemented. Risks: 1. Someone might find a way to do something bad with it somehow. Costs: 1. Some development time to make it happen. Aside from the obvious benefit of, well, not being a hack, an official implementation would also discourage the community from implementing even more hacks and thus locking themselves into them (probably less-secure versions at that). Has anyone created a JIRA for this yet? Trying to pre-empt the first question the Lindens always seems to ask when confronted with a good idea. -- Adric AKA McCabe Maxsted inSL(tm) On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 1:06 PM, wrote: > Send SLDev mailing list submissions to > sldev@lists.secondlife.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > sldev-request@lists.secondlife.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > sldev-owner@lists.secondlife.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of SLDev digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Script to client channel. (Marine Kelley) > 2. Re: Script to client channel. (Dahlia Trimble) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Marine Kelley > To: Dimentox > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:28:15 +0100 > Subject: Re: [sldev] Script to client channel. > Hello all, > > I totally agree with the idea of a llViewerSay (channel, string) command, > and would also support a llGetViewerString (string) to retrieve a string the > viewer would have set into the sim at login (exactly like what > llGetAgentLanguage does, but for arbitrary strings). That way the scripts > will be able to retrieve custom messages in a synchronous and secure manner. > > On a side note, llOwnerSay (the way I have chosen to channel special RLV > messages) is the most secure way to communicate directly with the viewer, > the only price being it is spammy for non-RLV users. But good scripts check > the viewer first, and stick to a "@version=2222" message and that's it. It's > not totally painless, but it's not too annoying I think. > > If something like llViewerSay was implemented, I would also keep the "@" > parsing on llOwnerSay, and also use llViewerSay the same way. Therefore old > scripts won't become obsolete, and new scripts will benefit of this feature. > > Marine > > > > 2009/2/16 Dimentox > >> Also the ownersay is spammy for people who are not using the custom viewer >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Argent Stonecutter < >> secret.argent@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 2009-02-16, at 11:15, Thomas Shikami wrote: >>> >>>> Tony Dodd wrote: >>>> >>>>> As regards return traffic it is very easy to arrange for the viewer to >>>>> send >>>>> a string on some selected channel, though I suppose in the interests of >>>>> clarity and security it might be better to add client to server >>>>> messages >>>>> with a new event type. >>>>> >>>> >>> This secure channel is already in the works, the viewer already supports >>>> curl and the server side lsl scripts are about to support http_in. >>>> >>> >>> I'm not sure how secure a channel this would be. There's nothing that >>> tells a script that a connection via HTTP is coming from the client it's >>> expecting. The chat version can be implemented securely enough for >>> attachments to deal with any attack I can think of, since you can use >>> llOwnerSay() for the script-client path, and verify the chat >>> id==llGetOwner() for the response. If that's not good enough, then going to >>> something with less authentication wouldn't be a step forward. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dahlia Trimble > To: sldev@lists.secondlife.com > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:45:40 -0800 > Subject: Re: [sldev] Script to client channel. > The ownersay method doesn't need to be spammy to non-custom viewer users, > the scripts that format the special ownersay messages could be triggered by > the custom viewer only by saying an enable message on a special channel when > an object containing the script is discovered, perhaps being discovered by a > special texture UUID or some other uncommon marker. Or a prim bearing a > special texture could be sent a touch event which could initiate special > communication. > I still think this can be accomplished without server modifications. > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Dimentox wrote: > >> Also the ownersay is spammy for people who are not using the custom viewer >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Argent Stonecutter < >> secret.argent@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 2009-02-16, at 11:15, Thomas Shikami wrote: >>> >>>> Tony Dodd wrote: >>>> >>>>> As regards return traffic it is very easy to arrange for the viewer to >>>>> send >>>>> a string on some selected channel, though I suppose in the interests of >>>>> clarity and security it might be better to add client to server >>>>> messages >>>>> with a new event type. >>>>> >>>> >>> This secure channel is already in the works, the viewer already supports >>>> curl and the server side lsl scripts are about to support http_in. >>>> >>> >>> I'm not sure how secure a channel this would be. There's nothing that >>> tells a script that a connection via HTTP is coming from the client it's >>> expecting. The chat version can be implemented securely enough for >>> attachments to deal with any attack I can think of, since you can use >>> llOwnerSay() for the script-client path, and verify the chat >>> id==llGetOwner() for the response. If that's not good enough, then going to >>> something with less authentication wouldn't be a step forward. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > > _______________________________________________ > SLDev mailing list > SLDev@lists.secondlife.com > https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev > > -- "Work is love made visible." ? Kahlil Gibran "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason if we dig deep in our history and doctrine and remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes which were for the moment unpopular. We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result. There is no way for a citizen of the Republic to abdicate his responsibility." -- Edward R. Murrow, March 9, 1954 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090216/98448098/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Mon Feb 16 17:08:07 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Mon Feb 16 17:08:20 2009 Subject: [sldev] Re: SLDev Digest, Vol 26, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <781e4b420902161534y6ba835dt1e3f134d940173c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090216200614.41C62113A38@stupor.lindenlab.com> <781e4b420902161534y6ba835dt1e3f134d940173c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090217020807.dc6b1dc8.sldev@free.fr> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:34:00 -0700, Adric R wrote: > llViewerSay sounds like the only sane suggestion I've read thus far. You would not only need a llViewerSay() function, but also a viewer() event, so that the viewer may reply to the script asynchronously. Specification example: New function: integer llViewerSay(key id, integer code, string message) with: - id: a unique UUID that would identify the vendor/application (so that it can be routed to the right plugin in the viewer. - code: equivalent to the llLinkMessage() code parameter (i.e. some sort of "channel" number). - message: the message for the plugin. - the return parameter (integer): TRUE when the plugin exists ('id' is registered in the viewer), FALSE otherwise. New event: viewer(key id, integer code, string message) with the same conventions as above for the parameters. And of course, a way and an API to implement plugins for the viewer... Which is probably the most difficult part to implement since the viewer currently does not offer any "hook" nor scripting mechanism for its internal operations. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Marine Kelley > > > > I totally agree with the idea of a llViewerSay (channel, string) command, > > and would also support a llGetViewerString (string) to retrieve a string the > > viewer would have set into the sim at login (exactly like what > > llGetAgentLanguage does, but for arbitrary strings). That way the scripts > > will be able to retrieve custom messages in a synchronous and secure manner. What about: New functions: string llGetSetting(string name) integer llSetSetting(string name) which would allow to retreive and set the "debug" settings part of a white list (or better: two white lists, one for reading permission and the other for writing permissions). The white lists could be CSV lists stored in two new settings (say "WriteSettingsWhiteList" and "ReadSettingsWhiteList") which of course would themselves not be writetable via llSetSetting(). Oh... and llGetSetting() would also have to return special strings when: - the setting does not exist. - the setting is not readable. while llSetSetting() would return TRUE for success (the setting exists and is writable) or FALSE otherwise. These two functions would cover the synchronous communication needs with viewer extensions (such as RestrainedLife), at a low development cost (the code to add is rather trivial, both server and viewer side), and would provide scripters with a wealth of new possibilities, such as knowing exactly what viewer version the scripts are running into, what display settings are set or unset, what capabilities are available or not, etc: the default set of readable (white-listed) settings could be rather broad without sacricifying to security and/or privacy. Henri. From sldev at free.fr Mon Feb 16 17:16:05 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Mon Feb 16 17:16:15 2009 Subject: [sldev] SLDev Digest, Vol 26, Issue 24 Message-ID: <20090217021605.a7bc91b4.sldev@free.fr> I meant: integer llSetSetting(string name, string value) Should not write specs at 02:00 (am)... :-P Henri. From jacek.antonelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 17:42:49 2009 From: jacek.antonelli at gmail.com (Jacek Antonelli) Date: Mon Feb 16 17:42:52 2009 Subject: [sldev] RFC: SVC-3848 (Script-to-viewer communication, e.g. llViewerSay) Message-ID: <105c09f0902161742n529b512fi8cb0e84f87f60ce6@mail.gmail.com> After today's list discussion about script-to-viewer communications (see topic "Script to client channel"), I've created a new JIRA feature suggestion to implement a family of script-to-viewer message methods and LSL functions (llViewerSay, llViewerOwnerSay, etc.). Full details are on the JIRA: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3848 I would appreciate feedback, suggestions, and comments there. Regards, - Jacek From lenglish5 at cox.net Tue Feb 17 01:27:49 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Tue Feb 17 01:27:53 2009 Subject: [sldev] [META]{AWG} proposal for new IETF working group and next meeting. Be there or be out of the loop... Message-ID: <499A8315.90808@cox.net> So, for one reason or another, no-one has mentioned this, but Zero Linden announced a couple of weeks ago that Linden Lab had begun the process of setting up a Birds of a Feather (BOF) meeting at IETF 74 that meets this March. The name of the group is: MMOX --Massively Multiplayer Online X [Stuff] The purpose is what the name suggests: it takes the preliminary OGP/AWG protocols and proposes them as preliminary protocols for Virtual World interop--the beginning for the process of establishing internet "stuff" for virtual worlds. preliminary draft charter: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/MmoxCharter mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox Meetings concerning same: Speculation: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03 Announcement: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2009_feb_03 Followup: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10 Today's meeting, Tuesday, 9:30 AM SLT at ThornBridgeTown should also be more about the IETF. Feel free to IM Saijanai Kuhn, Tree Kyomoon or Zha Ewry in-word for a group invite to our meeting place. Lawson From marinekelley at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 01:58:33 2009 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Tue Feb 17 01:58:43 2009 Subject: [sldev] [META]{AWG} proposal for new IETF working group and next meeting. Be there or be out of the loop... In-Reply-To: <499A8315.90808@cox.net> References: <499A8315.90808@cox.net> Message-ID: <5CF52803-27F3-4F93-84BB-29D504C0DB45@gmail.com> "Be there or be out of the loop". I'm not sure I like the way it sounds. It better be a joke. On 17 f?vr. 09, at 10:27, Lawson English wrote: > So, for one reason or another, no-one has mentioned this, but Zero > Linden announced a couple of weeks ago that Linden Lab had begun the > process of setting up a Birds of a Feather (BOF) meeting at IETF 74 > that meets this March. The name of the group is: > > MMOX --Massively Multiplayer Online X [Stuff] > > > The purpose is what the name suggests: it takes the preliminary OGP/ > AWG protocols and proposes them as preliminary protocols for Virtual > World interop--the beginning for the process of establishing > internet "stuff" for virtual worlds. > > > preliminary draft charter: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/MmoxCharter > > mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox > > > Meetings concerning same: > > Speculation: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-03 > Announcement: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden/Office_Hours/2009_feb_03 > Followup: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-10 > > > Today's meeting, Tuesday, 9:30 AM SLT at ThornBridgeTown should also > be more about the IETF. > > Feel free to IM Saijanai Kuhn, Tree Kyomoon or Zha Ewry in-word for > a group invite to our meeting place. > > > Lawson > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From lenglish5 at cox.net Tue Feb 17 02:02:12 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Tue Feb 17 02:02:14 2009 Subject: [sldev] [META]{AWG} proposal for new IETF working group and next meeting. Be there or be out of the loop... In-Reply-To: <5CF52803-27F3-4F93-84BB-29D504C0DB45@gmail.com> References: <499A8315.90808@cox.net> <5CF52803-27F3-4F93-84BB-29D504C0DB45@gmail.com> Message-ID: <499A8B24.50306@cox.net> Marine Kelley wrote: > "Be there or be out of the loop". I'm not sure I like the way it > sounds. It better be a joke. > Oh yes it was a joke. Sorry, forgot the smiley. We post chat logs on the wiki if you can't make it: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#Chat_Logs Lawson From marinekelley at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 02:13:21 2009 From: marinekelley at gmail.com (Marine Kelley) Date: Tue Feb 17 02:13:30 2009 Subject: [sldev] [META]{AWG} proposal for new IETF working group and next meeting. Be there or be out of the loop... In-Reply-To: <499A8B24.50306@cox.net> References: <499A8315.90808@cox.net> <5CF52803-27F3-4F93-84BB-29D504C0DB45@gmail.com> <499A8B24.50306@cox.net> Message-ID: <478AE4E8-5BCC-48D7-8EF4-0A4A0B5FF0CF@gmail.com> Thanks Lawson. Sorry for jumping the gun like that. Some people may not be able to attend, due to RL constraints or their timezones (although in this instance, European people are advantaged), and certainly feel bad about it... The chatlogs are always very helpful, btw. Marine On 17 f?vr. 09, 11:02, Lawson English wrote: > Marine Kelley wrote: >> "Be there or be out of the loop". I'm not sure I like the way it >> sounds. It better be a joke. >> > > Oh yes it was a joke. Sorry, forgot the smiley. > > We post chat logs on the wiki if you can't make it: > > > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#Chat_Logs > > > Lawson From thomas.shikami at online.de Tue Feb 17 03:52:08 2009 From: thomas.shikami at online.de (Thomas Shikami) Date: Tue Feb 17 03:52:09 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <729681B9-236B-4AB0-B54F-549634FA58E6@gmail.com> References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> <49999F40.4030404@online.de> <729681B9-236B-4AB0-B54F-549634FA58E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <499AA4E8.50104@online.de> Argent Stonecutter wrote: > If they're not using the custom viewer they'll see a single message > like "$init$74236478" when they attach, the viewer won't respond with > "/74236478 $ok$" (or whatever the protocol you come up with does) and > that'll be it. the purpose of the custom script -> viewer channel would be to avoid that "$init$..." message to display at all to non-custom viewers. An alternative could be to change the standard viewer to hide llOwnerSay that starts with @ or $. In any way, looking for something cleaner that is fully transparent to users with standard viewers and already existing viewers. From tofu.linden at lindenlab.com Tue Feb 17 05:05:20 2009 From: tofu.linden at lindenlab.com (Tofu Linden) Date: Tue Feb 17 05:05:22 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] passing a LLMediaObserver::onMediaMetaInfoChangeevent from llmediaimplwhatsoever to llviewermedia does just nothing In-Reply-To: <200902130005.49658.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> References: <200902130005.49658.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> Message-ID: <499AB610.4050102@lindenlab.com> I checked with a media guy, he says: "That all looks fine to me. I'd suggest adding a break point in LLMediaEmitter::addObserver() and LLMediaEmitter::update() and seeing what happens." Armin Weatherwax wrote: > Hi, > I'm trying to pass audio stream meta data (Artist, Title) to llviewermedia and > for that I want to inform llviewermedia that meta data was changed (if so). > so my llmediaimpl does in its updateMedia() > LLMediaEvent event( this ); > mEventEmitter.update( &LLMediaObserver::onMediaMetaInfoChange, event ); > llmediaobserver has a > virtual void onMediaMetaInfoChange( const EventType& event_in ) { } > and llviewermedia has a > void onMediaMetaInfoChange(const EventType& event_in); > > ... but the void onMediaMetaInfoChange does never trigger. So what I'm missing > to let it work ? > > > thanks in advance > :) Armin > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From q at lindenlab.com Tue Feb 17 07:06:16 2009 From: q at lindenlab.com (Kent Quirk (Q Linden)) Date: Tue Feb 17 07:06:24 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] passing aLLMediaObserver::onMediaMetaInfoChangeeventfrom llmediaimplwhatsoever to llviewermedia does just nothing In-Reply-To: <499AB610.4050102@lindenlab.com> References: <200902130005.49658.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> <499AB610.4050102@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <4BA59F6E-F3BA-4CA1-967C-C4FE49F601AC@lindenlab.com> I was pretty sure it was a problem with pointers-to-members and subclasses, but I stared at it for a while and couldn't convince myself it was wrong. Just to make sure that's not the case, you might stick a log message in the default implementation of the change event in the base class. If that fires instead of the subclass event, the problem is that you have a reference to the wrong class when you're dereferencing the pointer-to-member. Q On Feb 17, 2009, at 8:05 AM, Tofu Linden wrote: > I checked with a media guy, he says: > "That all looks fine to me. I'd suggest adding a break point in > LLMediaEmitter::addObserver() and LLMediaEmitter::update() and seeing > what happens." > > Armin Weatherwax wrote: >> Hi, >> I'm trying to pass audio stream meta data (Artist, Title) to >> llviewermedia and >> for that I want to inform llviewermedia that meta data was changed >> (if so). >> so my llmediaimpl does in its updateMedia() >> LLMediaEvent event( this ); >> mEventEmitter.update( &LLMediaObserver::onMediaMetaInfoChange, >> event ); >> llmediaobserver has a >> virtual void onMediaMetaInfoChange( const EventType& event_in ) { } >> and llviewermedia has a >> void onMediaMetaInfoChange(const EventType& event_in); >> >> ... but the void onMediaMetaInfoChange does never trigger. So what >> I'm missing >> to let it work ? >> >> >> thanks in advance >> :) Armin >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From secret.argent at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 07:49:19 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Tue Feb 17 07:49:28 2009 Subject: [sldev] Script to client channel. In-Reply-To: <499AA4E8.50104@online.de> References: <49996F18.2050408@online.de> <9F3845389E604A438078A55A55F437F1@XPS> <49999F40.4030404@online.de> <729681B9-236B-4AB0-B54F-549634FA58E6@gmail.com> <499AA4E8.50104@online.de> Message-ID: <19D9A21E-2D4A-49F9-9254-5915C6304E57@gmail.com> On 2009-02-17, at 05:52, Thomas Shikami wrote: > Argent Stonecutter wrote: >> If they're not using the custom viewer they'll see a single message >> like "$init$74236478" when they attach, the viewer won't respond >> with "/74236478 $ok$" (or whatever the protocol you come up with >> does) and that'll be it. > the purpose of the custom script -> viewer channel would be to avoid > that "$init$..." message to display at all to non-custom viewers. An > alternative could be to change the standard viewer to hide > llOwnerSay that starts with @ or $. In any way, looking for > something cleaner that is fully transparent to users with standard > viewers and already existing viewers. Yah, I got that, I was just pointing out that you wouldn't be automatically getting spammed by using chat from an attachment. I do think that it's a good idea to have better view-server side support, not just for streaming data like this but also for static data... so a script could set a tagged attribute on a prim that a modified viewer would see and interpret... and for non-volatile storage in prims and for low impact object-object shared state. From armin.weatherwax at googlemail.com Tue Feb 17 11:36:23 2009 From: armin.weatherwax at googlemail.com (Armin Weatherwax) Date: Tue Feb 17 11:36:31 2009 Subject: [sldev] [HELP] passing aLLMediaObserver::onMediaMetaInfoChangeeventfrom llmediaimplwhatsoever to llviewermedia does just nothing In-Reply-To: <4BA59F6E-F3BA-4CA1-967C-C4FE49F601AC@lindenlab.com> References: <200902130005.49658.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> <499AB610.4050102@lindenlab.com> <4BA59F6E-F3BA-4CA1-967C-C4FE49F601AC@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <200902172036.24018.Armin.Weatherwax@gmail.com> what I found out is that llviewermedia reacts on video streams, not on the music stream, so if I had meta info for a video it would trigger correctly. I now add the meta info to gAudiop which is already prepared for that in some way. I don't know - I percieve streaming music not in the first place as audio but as streaming media, and I think the LLMediaObserver would be the better choice to pass my information over. thanks for looking into it :) Armin From steve at lindenlab.com Tue Feb 17 11:48:33 2009 From: steve at lindenlab.com (Steve Linden) Date: Tue Feb 17 11:48:58 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards Message-ID: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> The I18N dev team is going to be tackling date, time, number, and currency localization issues in the next couple of quarters. We are looking at existing standards for replacing text inside a message and want to cover as many as possible before making a decision. Some possibilities that we are looking at include ICU and XSLT. If anyone on this list is familiar with any other good options, please reply to this thread. As an example of what I mean, currently a string substitution in the Viewer might look like this: std::string bar(const LLSD& sdargs) { LLUIString foo = getString("bar"); // bar = "At [TIME] on [DATE], there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET]"; foo.setArg("[TIME]", sdargs["time"].asString()); foo.setArg("[DATE]", sdargs["date"].asString(0)); foo.setArg("[EVENT]", sdargs["event"].asString()); return foo.getString(); } The equivalent in ICU looks like this: UErrorCode err = U_ZERO_ERROR; Formattable arguments[] = { (int32_t)7, Formattable(Calendar.getNow(), Formattable::kIsDate), "a disturbance in the Force" }; UnicodeString result; result = MessageFormat::format( "At {1,time} on {1,date}, there was {2} on planet{0,number,integer}.", arguments, 3, result, err); I am not particularly fond of indexed substitutions, I prefer name/value pairs, because it gives the translator a little more context, i.e. it is easier for a translator to look at "At [TIME] on [DATE], there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET]" then "At {1,time} on {1,date}, there was {2} on planet{0,number,integer}." Our current compromise proposal would look something like this: std::string bar(const LLSD& sdargs) { LLUIString foo = getString("bar"); // bar = "At [DATE,time] on [DATE,date], there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET,integer]"; foo.setLLSDArgs(sdargs); return foo.getString(); } Note, the code writing part of this is easy. There are plenty of time/date/number formatting libraries out there we could use for the time/date/number/currency -> localized string conversion. I just don't want to invent a string substitution standard if there is something useful and widely used out there that won't make the translators' job more difficult. Thanks, -Steve Linden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090217/be535fd7/attachment.htm From lenglish5 at cox.net Tue Feb 17 13:23:44 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Tue Feb 17 13:23:47 2009 Subject: [sldev] [AWG] chat log for tuesday Message-ID: <499B2AE0.1020808@cox.net> This was an important meeting I think. DIscussed the upcoming IETF meeting to form the mmox working group. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2009-02-17 Lawson From monkowsk at watson.ibm.com Tue Feb 17 15:49:00 2009 From: monkowsk at watson.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue Feb 17 15:49:25 2009 Subject: [sldev] slviewer on PLAYSTATION3 In-Reply-To: References: <49751C3D.1050805@watson.ibm.com> <4975FE5B.4040203@watson.ibm.com> <49774E5D.50700@watson.ibm.com> <49788543.4050900@watson.ibm.com> <498CA56E.3090401@watson.ibm.com> <4991A5BE.4020409@watson.ibm.com> <4994459B.60808@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <499B4CEC.6020902@watson.ibm.com> Takeshich Nakamura wrote: > I corrected llappviewerlinux.cpp and FindELFIO.cmake. > I re-compiled.The viewer could give detail information int the trace. Nice work. Unfortunately, at this point it doesn't look like anything strange is happening in the viewer code. It's just trying to load a 2D texture that has been generated algorithmically. Without a debugger, it would be hard to track down the problem. The only think I could suggest is to try to disable as many of the OpenGL features as you can using the settings file http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Debug_Settings but I don't know which parameters might make a difference and there are a lot of parameters. Mike From I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de Tue Feb 17 20:00:31 2009 From: I_really_needed_a_new_mailbox at gmx.de (zai) Date: Tue Feb 17 19:59:46 2009 Subject: [sldev] Have you ever read the comments in your viewers source code? Message-ID: <1234929631.7982.6.camel@konsubuntu> Hey there :-) This is a silly mail, so when you're up to serious business, please skip reading here. For all others: Have you ever had a look at the comments in your viewers source code? I hadn't... until today. And I stumbled about some rather funny quotes which I'd like to share this way. I noted my findings over here: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zai_Lynch/SCQ Hope you'll have as much fun with it as I had when I found it (^_^) Greetz, zai -- https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zai_Lynch From lenglish5 at cox.net Wed Feb 18 18:55:25 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Wed Feb 18 18:55:27 2009 Subject: [sldev] [AWG] Historic meeting... Message-ID: <499CCA1D.7020707@cox.net> So, an historic meeting took place today: representatives from 3 different virtual worlds met in a virtual world to hash out the details of how to bring the MMOX meeting into their respective virtual worlds and allow meeting participation from within them. Qwaq, OpenSim and SecondLife were all represented. Here's the chat log. A more readable summary is forthcoming: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/MMOX/Chat_Logs/2009-2-19 Lawson (SjK ISL) _______________________________________________ mmox mailing list mmox@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox From alissa_sabre at yahoo.co.jp Thu Feb 19 06:56:51 2009 From: alissa_sabre at yahoo.co.jp (Alissa Sabre) Date: Thu Feb 19 06:58:21 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <1L19e34ffis73e8bds4ei9sJ.> > The I18N dev team is going to be tackling date, time, number, and > currency localization issues in the next couple of quarters. Wow, LL has I18N dev team, at last! I fully support the activity. > We are > looking at existing standards for replacing text inside a message and > want to cover as many as possible before making a decision. Some > possibilities that we are looking at include ICU Do you want to create a large catalog? I'm not sure it's helpful... Your example (ICU) combines locale-dependent time/date formating and parameter substitution in message template. Java has similar set of APIs. (Note that ICU and Java I18N features are designed by the same group.) Microsoft .NET exposes yet another set of similar features through System.String.Format methods. (In .NET, all of namespace names, class names, and method names begin with a capical letter, by the way.) I don't know any other _standards_ with similar features. However, as far as I understand, usual method to do this kind of job today is that first format the data into appropriate locale dependent string, then embed the string in a message string, substituting some marker in the template message text. I.e., two separate set of APIs for two separate things. For example, a standard C function for date/time for the first part is strftime(). In most of stand-alone application csses, the part of a program that fills message *knows* the data types of each parameters to be embedded into messsges. The ideaq is, for example, in your example code, a programmer who writes sdargs["date"] or Calendar.getNow() should already know that particular data is a date, so there should be no difficalty to call strftime requesting "normal date format" before passing it to a substitution function. There are so many standard set of APIs for this purpose, i.e., one set for single data formatting, and another set for parameter substitution in message template. (As Steve wrote partly.) As a result, there are no many standard way to express parameter substitution and time/date format control in a same string. I personally prefer this traditional approach more than the Java/ICU/.NET's _modern_ approach. My primary concern is the chance of error detection at compile time. In ICU model, all parameters are passed as a same data type, and the type matching is done at run time. I don't like it. # I'm afraid that my preference is biased by some old days experiences... > I just don't > want to invent a string substitution standard if there is something > useful and widely used out there that won't make the translators' job > more difficult. I believe the most widely used parameter substitution syntax ever is that of so-called XPG printf format. It is a standard printf-style format plus argument reordering. For example, message = "At %1$s on %2$s, there was %2$s on planet %0$d\n" printf(message, time, date, event, planet); It is a real _classic_ that exists since late 1980s, and it is hardly readable as standard printf format string is, since it is intended to be upward compatible with the standard printf. If you include similar features in script languages, I believe the most widely used one is the parameter/variable substitution of posix Bourne shell. E.g., MESSAGE='At ${TIME} on ${DATE}, there was ${EVENT} on planet ${PLANET}' eval echo "$MESSAGE" -------------------------------------- Power up the Internet with Yahoo! Toolbar. http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/toolbar/ From soft at lindenlab.com Thu Feb 19 07:41:45 2009 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Soft) Date: Thu Feb 19 07:41:50 2009 Subject: [sldev] Open Source Meeting Today, Thu 2pm Message-ID: Our Thursday open source meetings take place at 2pm. If there is anything you would like on the agenda... have at it! http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda From robla at lindenlab.com Thu Feb 19 15:18:51 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Thu Feb 19 15:19:36 2009 Subject: [sldev] In-world group to announce meetings/etc Message-ID: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> Hi folks, Right now, there's no single in-world group that we steer people to join if they're interested in getting notification of meetings and such. We discussed this at our last Open Source Meeting: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/2009-02-19 Options considered: a. "Second Life Source Developers" - most appropriately named, with 157 members as of this writing b. "OpenSL" - 168 members as of this writing, was where a lot of people ended up when the code was first released c. Some newly created group d. Other Please put your thoughts here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2392 Thanks Rob From lenglish5 at cox.net Thu Feb 19 15:46:55 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Thu Feb 19 15:46:58 2009 Subject: [sldev] In-world group to announce meetings/etc In-Reply-To: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> References: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <499DEF6F.6050902@cox.net> Rob Lanphier wrote: > Hi folks, > > Right now, there's no single in-world group that we steer people to join > if they're interested in getting notification of meetings and such. > > We discussed this at our last Open Source Meeting: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/2009-02-19 > > Options considered: > a. "Second Life Source Developers" - most appropriately named, with 157 > members as of this writing > b. "OpenSL" - 168 members as of this writing, was where a lot of people > ended up when the code was first released > c. Some newly created group > d. Other > > Please put your thoughts here: > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2392 > There's always Saijanai's spam conference folder ;-) ;-) ;-) L From sldev at free.fr Fri Feb 20 02:13:45 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Fri Feb 20 02:14:00 2009 Subject: [sldev] In-world group to announce meetings/etc In-Reply-To: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> References: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20090220111345.79c68764.sldev@free.fr> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:18:51 -0800, Rob Lanphier wrote: > Hi folks, > > Right now, there's no single in-world group that we steer people to join > if they're interested in getting notification of meetings and such. > > We discussed this at our last Open Source Meeting: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/2009-02-19 > > Options considered: > a. "Second Life Source Developers" - most appropriately named, with 157 > members as of this writing > b. "OpenSL" - 168 members as of this writing, was where a lot of people > ended up when the code was first released > c. Some newly created group > d. Other With the current (ridiculously low) 25 groups limit, I see in-world groups as no-nos for such a use. I say: stick with the sldev mailing list for all announcements, and IRC for chat. Regards, Henri. From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Feb 20 10:16:42 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe Bossut (Merov Linden)) Date: Fri Feb 20 10:16:46 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> Hi, As someone who did i18n/l10n in a former project (and even did translations from English to French...), here's my comments on this subject: i18n (internationalization): On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Steve Linden wrote: > The I18N dev team is going to be tackling date, time, number, and > currency localization issues in the next couple of quarters. We are > looking at existing standards for replacing text inside a message > and want to cover as many as possible before making a decision. Some > possibilities that we are looking at include ICU and XSLT. If anyone > on this list is familiar with any other good options, please reply > to this thread. - ICU is great! It uses the Olson tables for date/time locale and Time zone sensitive formating. Time zone support in particular can be mind blowing. Don't underestimate this and think you can do your own home brew "simple" version: TZ support is anything but simple... ICU is by far the best here. - Make sure you support primary and secondary locales as lots of people use 2 (a primary and a fallback). - Make sure you support the country flavors (e.g. fr_CA, fr_BE, etc...). Beware of its infuence in data formating (use of "." instead of "," for decimal separator for instance) - You didn't mention "sorting" in your list. That's also a service provided by ICU and should be used when presenting lists to users (and we've plenty of this in SL) - There's also a Python version of ICU (PyICU) which can prove useful considering we've quite a bit of Python code floating around (though none with user facing strings... yet...) - What about providing l10n for LSL? (/me ducks...) Seriously, that'd be really cool... l10n (localization): > I am not particularly fond of indexed substitutions, I prefer name/ > value pairs, because it gives the translator a little more context, > i.e. it is easier for a translator to look at "At [TIME] on [DATE], > there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET]" then "At {1,time} on {1,date}, > there was {2} on planet{0,number,integer}." > > Our current compromise proposal would look something like this: > > std::string bar(const LLSD& sdargs) > { > LLUIString foo = getString("bar"); // bar = "At [DATE,time] on > [DATE,date], there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET,integer]"; > foo.setLLSDArgs(sdargs); > return foo.getString(); > } +1 on (name/value) pairs in the code and big -1 on indexed substitutions. As a localizer, the less guess work I have to do about the context of a string, the faster I can get a translation out. I don't really care about the format that much and your example could easily be reordered in French as: "[EVENT] a eu lieu sur [PLANET,integer] le [DATE,date] ? [DATE,time]" If you think however to localize Python scripts also, you may want to use Python syntax though rather than your own, i.e.: "At %(time)s on %(date)s, there was an %(event)s on planet %(planet)d" But, heck, again, I've no religion here. One question: which translation tool will be available to translators? I used poedit in the past (http://www.poedit.net/) and it's pretty handy. That also opens the door for sldev community members to participate in the localization process. Of course, that supposes that there's a tool to convert SL resources to the .po format and back. Any plan for doing this? Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090220/169a75d5/attachment.htm From steve at lindenlab.com Fri Feb 20 14:16:15 2009 From: steve at lindenlab.com (Steve Bennetts (Steve Linden)) Date: Fri Feb 20 14:16:21 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 257 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090220/b7fb8b09/signature.pgp From TammyNowotny at mac.com Fri Feb 20 15:36:04 2009 From: TammyNowotny at mac.com (Tammy Nowotny) Date: Fri Feb 20 15:36:09 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <499F3E64.2070107@mac.com> I am not sure if there is a standard yet for time on other planets. The only significant off-planet activities were the moon missions of the early 1970s, and those only lasted a few days each. The astronauts just used earth time. I don't know offhand if they used Houston Time or Zulu Time (same as UTC and GMT) or what. The moon was so close and the speeds used to get there were so slow that relativity was insignificant. Even when we just go to Mars, we have problems. The second is a well-defined time unit our explorers would use that. But Mars is far enough from the earth that you can't just use Earth time. And of course its day and year are very different lengths from ours. --Tammy Nowotny Steve Bennetts (Steve Linden) wrote: >> >> l10n (localization): >>> I am not particularly fond of indexed substitutions, I prefer >>> name/value pairs, because it gives the translator a little more >>> context, i.e. it is easier for a translator to look at "At [TIME] on >>> [DATE], there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET]" then "At {1,time} on >>> {1,date}, there was {2} on planet{0,number,integer}." >>> >>> Our current compromise proposal would look something like this: >>> >>> std::string bar(const LLSD& sdargs) >>> { >>> LLUIString foo = getString("bar"); // bar = "At [DATE,time] on >>> [DATE,date], there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET,integer]"; >>> foo.setLLSDArgs(sdargs); >>> return foo.getString(); >>> } >> From ordinal.malaprop at fastmail.fm Fri Feb 20 15:40:57 2009 From: ordinal.malaprop at fastmail.fm (ordinal.malaprop@fastmail.fm) Date: Fri Feb 20 15:41:02 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <499F3E64.2070107@mac.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> <499F3E64.2070107@mac.com> Message-ID: On 20 Feb 2009, at 23:36, Tammy Nowotny wrote: > I am not sure if there is a standard yet for time on other planets. > The only significant off-planet activities were the moon missions of > the early 1970s, and those only lasted a few days each. The > astronauts just used earth time. I don't know offhand if they used > Houston Time or Zulu Time (same as UTC and GMT) or what. The moon > was so close and the speeds used to get there were so slow that > relativity was insignificant. > > Even when we just go to Mars, we have problems. The second is a > well-defined time unit our explorers would use that. But Mars is > far enough from the earth that you can't just use Earth time. And > of course its day and year are very different lengths from ours. > > --Tammy Nowotny Relativistic time adjustments should clearly also be a part of this. From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Feb 20 15:51:24 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe Bossut (Merov Linden)) Date: Fri Feb 20 15:51:30 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <79C33BBB-19C2-4D6D-B434-9DAE2A99E10A@lindenlab.com> Hi, Aaaah! Plural, gender, etc... Right. As you know, ICU provides a service for plural form (http://icu-project.org/userguide/formatMessages.html#CF ). Since your example for message formatting comes from the same page, I suppose you already know about that. :) gettext also covers the issues, even including cases where you have more than 2 forms for plurality (e.g. some languages like arabic have a "dual" used for "2 things"). So it's more complicated than just "one" and "many". In general, for forms that depend of the cardinal of a value, the best is to have a selector in the code and a plurality of strings: 2, 3 or more depending of the courage of the coder and the criticality of the translation. For gender, it's even more complex as most languages have 2 or 3 genders (adding a "neutral" like in german). And then, you have the combination of gender and plural in case the language have special grammatical link rules (like French). For instance, a message like: "%(number)d %(thing)s have been selected" will require no less than 4 variations since "selected" will have to be written "s?lectionn?", "s?lectionn?s", "s?lectionn?e" or "s?lectionn?es" depending on (number) and the gender of (thing). That beats your "nuevo/nueva" example. Would have you guessed that "selected" was influenced by the arguments (number) and (thing)? And French is easy compared to German or Baltic or Slavic languages. Not to mention Asian languages... Even better, in your "nuevo/nueva" example, imagine that, in French, you have 3 forms "nouvel/nouveau/nouvelle". "nouvel" is used if [ITEMTYPE] is masculine and its first letter is a vowel. e.g.: - un nouvel objet - un nouveau programme Aaaagh... Frankly, I don't think it's possible to spell all the possibilities for all possible languages. The best I think is to use caution when creating the strings. Some rules of thumb: - never concatenate strings: that's just plain evil as it assumes some general grammar - use as little arguments as possible in any string: because of the combinatory explosions here above mentioned and because it's commensurate to string concatenation - when using arguments, simply "print" the argument separating it with punctuation from the sentence (i.e. don't make it part of the grammatical meaning) e.g. "Number of files: [NUMBER, integer]" - use multiple strings and a selector when stuck: don't try to be too smart creating complex argument lists Then, it's up to the translator to be a little smart and use his/her native language artfully to avoid the pitfalls. In your example for instance, here's what I'd do in French: "Vous avez re?u un '[ITEMTYPE]' de la part de '[NAME]' il y a [DAYS,integer] jour(s)" At least, that's how I'll translate that into French if I had to :) Cheers, - Merov On Feb 20, 2009, at 2:16 PM, Steve Bennetts (Steve Linden) wrote: > Great feedback, thanks! > > One other issue I've been thinking about: how to handle > pluralization and gender. For example: > > "[NAME] gave you a new [ITEMTYPE] [DAYS,integer] days ago." > > There are 3 potential problems here: > 1. [NAME] gave - 'gave' might vary based on gender or familiarity. > This is pretty much impossible to solve since there is no practical > way to know the gender or relationship of, say, "M Linden". > > 2. new [ITEMTYPE] - 'new' might vary based the gender of ITEMTYPE. > In this case we could specify the gender, since ITEMTYPE is > presumably in a localized table somewhere. We could do something > like '[ITEMTYPE] [nuevo|nueva,gender(ITEMTYPE)]'. Has anyone seen > anything like this before? > > 3. [DAYS,integer] days - we see this problem in English all the time > "1 days ago". We could do something similar to the above example: > '[DAYS,integer] [day|days,plural(DAYS)]. Again, any good references > for this sort of thing? > > Thanks, > -Steve > > > > Philippe Bossut (Merov Linden) wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> As someone who did i18n/l10n in a former project (and even did >> translations from English to French...), here's my comments on this >> subject: >> >> i18n (internationalization): >> On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Steve Linden wrote: >>> The I18N dev team is going to be tackling date, time, number, and >>> currency localization issues in the next couple of quarters. We >>> are looking at existing standards for replacing text inside a >>> message and want to cover as many as possible before making a >>> decision. Some possibilities that we are looking at include ICU >>> and XSLT. If anyone on this list is familiar with any other good >>> options, please reply to this thread. >> >> - ICU is great! It uses the Olson tables for date/time locale and >> Time zone sensitive formating. Time zone support in particular can >> be mind blowing. Don't underestimate this and think you can do your >> own home brew "simple" version: TZ support is anything but >> simple... ICU is by far the best here. >> - Make sure you support primary and secondary locales as lots of >> people use 2 (a primary and a fallback). >> - Make sure you support the country flavors (e.g. fr_CA, fr_BE, >> etc...). Beware of its infuence in data formating (use of "." >> instead of "," for decimal separator for instance) >> - You didn't mention "sorting" in your list. That's also a service >> provided by ICU and should be used when presenting lists to users >> (and we've plenty of this in SL) >> - There's also a Python version of ICU (PyICU) which can prove >> useful considering we've quite a bit of Python code floating around >> (though none with user facing strings... yet...) >> - What about providing l10n for LSL? (/me ducks...) Seriously, >> that'd be really cool... >> >> l10n (localization): >>> I am not particularly fond of indexed substitutions, I prefer name/ >>> value pairs, because it gives the translator a little more >>> context, i.e. it is easier for a translator to look at "At [TIME] >>> on [DATE], there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET]" then "At {1,time} >>> on {1,date}, there was {2} on planet{0,number,integer}." >>> >>> Our current compromise proposal would look something like this: >>> >>> std::string bar(const LLSD& sdargs) >>> { >>> LLUIString foo = getString("bar"); // bar = "At [DATE,time] on >>> [DATE,date], there was [EVENT] on planet [PLANET,integer]"; >>> foo.setLLSDArgs(sdargs); >>> return foo.getString(); >>> } >> >> +1 on (name/value) pairs in the code and big -1 on indexed >> substitutions. As a localizer, the less guess work I have to do >> about the context of a string, the faster I can get a translation >> out. I don't really care about the format that much and your >> example could easily be reordered in French as: >> "[EVENT] a eu lieu sur [PLANET,integer] le [DATE,date] ? >> [DATE,time]" >> >> If you think however to localize Python scripts also, you may want >> to use Python syntax though rather than your own, i.e.: >> "At %(time)s on %(date)s, there was an %(event)s on planet % >> (planet)d" >> >> But, heck, again, I've no religion here. >> >> One question: which translation tool will be available to >> translators? I used poedit in the past (http://www.poedit.net/) and >> it's pretty handy. That also opens the door for sldev community >> members to participate in the localization process. Of course, that >> supposes that there's a tool to convert SL resources to the .po >> format and back. Any plan for doing this? >> >> Cheers, >> - Merov >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090220/1790a3bb/attachment-0001.htm From woltamat at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 17:12:23 2009 From: woltamat at gmail.com (Wolt Amat) Date: Fri Feb 20 17:12:39 2009 Subject: [sldev] Localization Message-ID: <002c01c993c1$74c46910$5e4d3b30$@com> A possible thinking point is also the possibilities of user and software misunderstandings between languages. Have a look at this presentation from ETSI Human Factors: http://www.etsi.org/website/document/plugtests/hfpres07/spoken_commands.pdf. While I am not proposing it as a solution, it does discuss some of the thinking points that may affect multiple language use. This is for expansion of the original document which I worked on a little, which if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. We tested the generic spoken commands against each other to minimize mistakes by automated recognition systems and non-native speakers, especially in the condition of suboptimal audio. I think some of the raised issues may apply to SL localization as well. Best regards, Wolt Amat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090220/652e7b4e/attachment.htm From sldev at free.fr Sat Feb 21 03:57:19 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Sat Feb 21 03:57:30 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <499F3E64.2070107@mac.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> <499F3E64.2070107@mac.com> Message-ID: <20090221125719.ce26c3fa.sldev@free.fr> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:36:04 -0500, Tammy Nowotny wrote: > .../... Zulu Time (same as UTC and GMT) Ok, time to be anal... ;-) Zulu time = UTC (Universal Time Coordinated) GMT should not be used any more in civil (and military) applications. This reference (which is based on Earth rotation, and as we now all know, the rotation of Earth slows down over time and can't therefore be used for a constant measure). The only legal (and international) time reference is UTC (which is based on the atomic clocks measures: over 40 of them located in countries all around the world, and coordinated in Paris by the "Bureau International des Poids et Mesures" http://www.bipm.org/en/scientific/tai/time_server.html). For obvious practical reasons (you don't want midnight UTC to happen at noon GMT in the far future) UTC is kept within +/- 1s from GMT thanks to "leap seconds" (one such leap second occured on the new year 2009). Adn to get back on topic, tt would be great if future time formats in SL could use UTC everywhere, as they (legally) should... Regards, Henri. From TammyNowotny at mac.com Sat Feb 21 06:25:58 2009 From: TammyNowotny at mac.com (Tammy Nowotny) Date: Sat Feb 21 06:26:13 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <20090221125719.ce26c3fa.sldev@free.fr> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> <499F3E64.2070107@mac.com> <20090221125719.ce26c3fa.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <49A00EF6.7070706@mac.com> Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:36:04 -0500, Tammy Nowotny wrote: > > > >> .../... Zulu Time (same as UTC and GMT) >> > > Ok, time to be anal... ;-) > > Zulu time = UTC (Universal Time Coordinated) > > GMT should not be used any more in civil (and military) applications. > This reference (which is based on Earth rotation, and as we now all know, > the rotation of Earth slows down over time and can't therefore be used > for a constant measure). > > The only legal (and international) time reference is UTC (which is based > on the atomic clocks measures: over 40 of them located in countries all > around the world, and coordinated in Paris by the "Bureau International > des Poids et Mesures" http://www.bipm.org/en/scientific/tai/time_server.html). > > Thanks Henri... I was just citing two commonly used terms which mean (almost) the same thing as UTC :-) One confusing thing about Greenwich Mean Time is that Greenwich, the London suburb the time standard was named after, is in fact not on UTC. London, along with the rest of Great Britain, is on UTC+1 most of the year and only uses UTC+0 in the winter months. I also think SL should run on UTC , although Pacific Standard/Daylight Time is something of a standard for internet social apps and internet advertising. SL uses "Linden Time" for most purposes, but UTC is used for some purposes, and the typist's local timezone is used for still other purposes. --Tammy Nowotny -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090221/298b81a5/attachment.htm From kakurady at gmail.com Sat Feb 21 14:13:25 2009 From: kakurady at gmail.com (Geneko Nemeth) Date: Sat Feb 21 14:14:06 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <49A07C85.5060007@gmail.com> I have to say I don't really think name/type pairs are necessary, when more often than not the names themselves imply types of data conveyed. As for translating tool... I heard from the i18n team that they are going to set up an in-house web translation interface. In the meantime, they use in-house software to convert the UI XML to some kind of rich text format and pass that to translators. I myself uses a text editor (with highlighting) coupled with an (in-house?) UI XML tag stripper [1] in translating the client. I do wish there's something similar to poedit, though. As for gender or plural forms, there's no linguistic gender or plural forms in Chinese. ^^ What may be a small problem is counting words (classifiers) which could differ depending on the type of object being counted. [1] http://nekotoba.nfshost.com/nekomimi/xmldropper/ Geneko (Kakurady) From secret.argent at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 12:15:16 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sun Feb 22 12:15:23 2009 Subject: [sldev] Looking at I18N formatting standards In-Reply-To: <79C33BBB-19C2-4D6D-B434-9DAE2A99E10A@lindenlab.com> References: <499B1491.6000400@lindenlab.com> <20DA93C6-A53A-474F-8686-5EDCE4B667A2@lindenlab.com> <499F2BAF.8030301@lindenlab.com> <79C33BBB-19C2-4D6D-B434-9DAE2A99E10A@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <66622517-2BBA-4FD5-BF36-1AD8362C7044@gmail.com> I'm not familiar with ICU but I have become uncomfortably familiar with XSL transformations in the past year, and I wouldn't recommend doing anything so complex with them. I could see using an XML format for the raw text and run it through xsltproc to convert <...> to % (...) or [...] for other tools, perhaps. From vector at leafpile.com Sun Feb 22 23:18:05 2009 From: vector at leafpile.com (Vector Hastings) Date: Sun Feb 22 23:18:26 2009 Subject: [sldev] shadow-draft problem Message-ID: I know this message was from waaaay back in the summer, but I'm now trying to resurrect a derivative of that branch, and I'm getting the same error. Did you ever find a solution for this? I've ordered an old 2003 compiler, which might fix my problem as the original source bundle I have is for 2003, but it'd be nice to get what I have working with a (relatively) recent compiler. (MSVS 2005 Express) Error is: ERROR: LLImageGL::createGLTexture: LLImageGL::createGLTexture failed to make texture. I've tried removing llkdu.dll from within and without the project, and checked as well as I can to make sure I've got appropriate looking artwork files (though that's a muddled picture, I realize). Thanks for any help, Vector Original post from Wed Jul 2 12:54:36 PDT 2008: When I remove llkdu.dll it still falls over.. The thread 'Win32 Thread' (0x1688) has exited with code 0 (0x0). Unhandled exception at 0x006f0a2e in SecondLife.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation writing location 0x00000000. I'm currently rebuilding with debug info to get some more useful information. Seems like a dereferenced null pointer, or something. Tom. Soft wrote: > The easiest way to test that is to erase or rename llkdu.dll - if > that's absent, the viewer falls back on openjpeg for decoding. > > It is indeed likely that the llkdu is out of sync. In the near future > we're going to stop exporting llkdu in any branch except release > candidate and official release to deal with this kind of problem. In > the long term, we want to remove the dependencies that can make llkdu > incompatible when viewer headers change. > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Thomas Grimshaw wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> I'm having some issues with the shadow-draft tree >> (http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/branches/shadow-draft) >> >> All appears to compile perfectly, but on execution the client crashes with >> an error apparently related to llkdu.dll: >> >> >>> SecondLife.exe!LLError::crashAndLoop(const >>> std::basic_string,std::allocator > & >>> message="ERROR: LLImageGL::createGLTexture failed to make texture") Line >>> 1101 + 0x3 bytes C++ >>> >> Has anyone encountered this before? Do I remember an issue similar to this >> previously where the llkdu.dll supplied in the libs tree was out of date? >> >> Thanks >> >> Tom >> Henry McLaughlin IT Consultant Software Solutions Office: 804-935-1900 Fax: 804-935-1901 Direct: 804-672-4186 Email: hmclaughlin@s-solutions.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090222/d7a4026a/attachment.htm From chaosstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 23:32:31 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Sun Feb 22 23:32:33 2009 Subject: [sldev] shadow-draft problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bb32d430902222332p4ebdbea7na5f9088415c78b12@mail.gmail.com> Greetings Vector, To my knowledge, shadows are now in the trunk branch, so you might want to try and compile that one. For me it worked with the latest lldkdu.dll, tho at least under windows, it seems to have trouble with parsing the avatar_skeleton.xml. I wonder if anybody else gets that issue. Compiled under MSVS 2005 express on my side. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 08:18, Vector Hastings wrote: > I know this message was from waaaay back in the summer, but I'm now trying > to resurrect a derivative of that branch, and I'm getting the same error. > > Did you ever find a solution for this? I've ordered an old 2003 compiler, > which might fix my problem as the original source bundle I have is for 2003, > but it'd be nice to get what I have working with a (relatively) recent > compiler. (MSVS 2005 Express) > > Error is: ERROR: LLImageGL::createGLTexture: LLImageGL::createGLTexture > failed to make texture. > > I've tried removing llkdu.dll from within and without the project, and > checked as well as I can to make sure I've got appropriate looking artwork > files (though that's a muddled picture, I realize). > > > Thanks for any help, > > Vector From chaosstar at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 23:49:24 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Sun Feb 22 23:49:27 2009 Subject: [sldev] 1.23 trunk: Cannot parse avatar_skeleton.xml Message-ID: <9bb32d430902222349l7fc51416h260e1bb183406bd6@mail.gmail.com> Greetings everybody, I just filed a JIRA on an XML parsing error in the current 1.23 trunk, and was wondering if anybody else encountered the error; See https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12161 This started to happen after the latest big update introducing the merger of the shadow branch files for me. Can anybody verify? I've been compiling it under Windows, however I know of people who run it fine under Linux. From me at signpostmarv.name Mon Feb 23 03:14:05 2009 From: me at signpostmarv.name (SignpostMarv Martin) Date: Mon Feb 23 03:14:10 2009 Subject: [sldev] In-world group to announce meetings/etc In-Reply-To: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> References: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <49A284FD.5070503@signpostmarv.name> Would it not be better to use something like Google Calendars, or possibly the new embedded calendar tech Zai Lynch and I have been working on ? Then peeps can just subscribe using a whole range of tools they already have access to. ~ Marv p.s. for a "targeted" implementation of the embedded calendar tech, see the new office hours templates http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:Office_Hours/Documentation Rob Lanphier wrote: > Hi folks, > > Right now, there's no single in-world group that we steer people to join > if they're interested in getting notification of meetings and such. > > We discussed this at our last Open Source Meeting: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/2009-02-19 > > Options considered: > a. "Second Life Source Developers" - most appropriately named, with 157 > members as of this writing > b. "OpenSL" - 168 members as of this writing, was where a lot of people > ended up when the code was first released > c. Some newly created group > d. Other > > Please put your thoughts here: > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2392 > > Thanks > Rob > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3244 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090223/73cce4a1/smime-0001.bin From me at signpostmarv.name Mon Feb 23 03:29:22 2009 From: me at signpostmarv.name (SignpostMarv Martin) Date: Mon Feb 23 03:29:24 2009 Subject: [sldev] In-world group to announce meetings/etc In-Reply-To: <49A284FD.5070503@signpostmarv.name> References: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> <49A284FD.5070503@signpostmarv.name> Message-ID: <49A28892.2030207@signpostmarv.name> btw, with the embedded calendar tech, its as simple as adding the following URL to your Google Calendar, iCal, or other webcal-supporting software: http://feeds.technorati.com/event/http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting ~ Marv. SignpostMarv Martin wrote: > Would it not be better to use something like Google Calendars, or > possibly the new embedded calendar tech Zai Lynch and I have been > working on ? > > Then peeps can just subscribe using a whole range of tools they already > have access to. > > ~ Marv > > p.s. for a "targeted" implementation of the embedded calendar tech, see > the new office hours templates > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:Office_Hours/Documentation > > Rob Lanphier wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> Right now, there's no single in-world group that we steer people to join >> if they're interested in getting notification of meetings and such. >> >> We discussed this at our last Open Source Meeting: >> https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/2009-02-19 >> >> Options considered: >> a. "Second Life Source Developers" - most appropriately named, with 157 >> members as of this writing >> b. "OpenSL" - 168 members as of this writing, was where a lot of people >> ended up when the code was first released >> c. Some newly created group >> d. Other >> >> Please put your thoughts here: >> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-2392 >> >> Thanks >> Rob >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3244 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090223/a16912ae/smime.bin From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 04:11:55 2009 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Mon Feb 23 04:12:00 2009 Subject: [sldev] shadow-draft problem In-Reply-To: <9bb32d430902222332p4ebdbea7na5f9088415c78b12@mail.gmail.com> References: <9bb32d430902222332p4ebdbea7na5f9088415c78b12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ambrosia wrote: > Greetings Vector, > > To my knowledge, shadows are now in the trunk branch, so you might > want to try and compile that one. For me it worked with the latest > lldkdu.dll, tho at least under windows, it seems to have trouble with > parsing the avatar_skeleton.xml. I wonder if anybody else gets that > issue. Compiled under MSVS 2005 express on my side. What's the exact error parsing? bone with out position by any chance? If so its a regression with locale pushing/poping. Robin From chaosstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 05:07:02 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Mon Feb 23 05:07:28 2009 Subject: [sldev] shadow-draft problem In-Reply-To: References: <9bb32d430902222332p4ebdbea7na5f9088415c78b12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9bb32d430902230507u307818e3p8fbd5b0bb80f0409@mail.gmail.com> Exactly :> Thanks for the explaination of that one! On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 13:11, Robin Cornelius wrote: > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Ambrosia wrote: >> Greetings Vector, >> >> To my knowledge, shadows are now in the trunk branch, so you might >> want to try and compile that one. For me it worked with the latest >> lldkdu.dll, tho at least under windows, it seems to have trouble with >> parsing the avatar_skeleton.xml. I wonder if anybody else gets that >> issue. Compiled under MSVS 2005 express on my side. > > What's the exact error parsing? bone with out position by any chance? > If so its a regression with locale pushing/poping. > > Robin > From gigstaggart at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 08:15:29 2009 From: gigstaggart at gmail.com (Jason Giglio) Date: Mon Feb 23 08:15:35 2009 Subject: [sldev] "disappeared issues" In-Reply-To: <493033a70902142312s51dea846i62d471b6552b9b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <493033a70902142312s51dea846i62d471b6552b9b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A2CBA1.3000200@gmail.com> Gordon Wendt wrote: > I just wanted to bring people's attention to a new project that I have > begun work on that I think is relative to development in SL and to this > list. I have begun to create a repository of publicly available > information from the jira-notify list and the RSS feeds of the content > of issues that have been later "disappeared" into SEC. Since issues > originally created into SEC aren't publicly reported unless the reporter > or a Linden discloses them (both unlikely) it doesn't contain any > "privately" reported data only an aggragate version of publicly > available logs. > I believe SLJirastats never purges issues that go away, so you can always get the old info from there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3266 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090223/6f104dd9/smime.bin From GordonWendt at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 10:30:44 2009 From: GordonWendt at gmail.com (Gordon Wendt) Date: Mon Feb 23 10:30:52 2009 Subject: [sldev] "disappeared issues" In-Reply-To: <49A2CBA1.3000200@gmail.com> References: <493033a70902142312s51dea846i62d471b6552b9b3@mail.gmail.com> <49A2CBA1.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <493033a70902231030k61c63c4dy8ef21f3eb5ef935@mail.gmail.com> What makes it hard isn't getting the issue inf, the hard part is flagging issues that are moved to SEC since currently nothing is publicly sent or flagged when an issue is moved to SEC. I'm trying to lobby to get that changed so that the standard move notice is enabled for moves to SEC but until then the "as they are seen" approach is the only way short of scripting a bot to check every SL issue ID up to the latest number in each category and flag anything that returns a string matching the permission denied notice that you get when trying to browse an SEC issue. -Gordon On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Jason Giglio wrote: > Gordon Wendt wrote: > > I just wanted to bring people's attention to a new project that I have > > begun work on that I think is relative to development in SL and to this > > list. I have begun to create a repository of publicly available > > information from the jira-notify list and the RSS feeds of the content > > of issues that have been later "disappeared" into SEC. Since issues > > originally created into SEC aren't publicly reported unless the reporter > > or a Linden discloses them (both unlikely) it doesn't contain any > > "privately" reported data only an aggragate version of publicly > > available logs. > > > > I believe SLJirastats never purges issues that go away, so you can > always get the old info from there. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090223/7251720d/attachment.htm From GordonWendt at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 10:35:07 2009 From: GordonWendt at gmail.com (Gordon Wendt) Date: Mon Feb 23 10:35:45 2009 Subject: [sldev] In-world group to announce meetings/etc In-Reply-To: <49A28892.2030207@signpostmarv.name> References: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> <49A284FD.5070503@signpostmarv.name> <49A28892.2030207@signpostmarv.name> Message-ID: <493033a70902231035i6b7ff1cdy35f5f74319612f60@mail.gmail.com> Marv, does this auto update and take care of the issues with the manually updated calendar that couldn't be group changed and ended up falling behind on changes? If so then that's a great achievement On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:29 AM, SignpostMarv Martin wrote: > btw, with the embedded calendar tech, its as simple as adding the following > URL to your Google Calendar, iCal, or other webcal-supporting software: > http://feeds.technorati.com/event/http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting > > ~ Marv. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090223/b94825df/attachment-0001.htm From vector at leafpile.com Mon Feb 23 18:49:09 2009 From: vector at leafpile.com (Vector Hastings) Date: Mon Feb 23 18:49:14 2009 Subject: [sldev] shadow-draft problem In-Reply-To: <9bb32d430902222332p4ebdbea7na5f9088415c78b12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, I have a complete software environment that someone went through several "versions" to improve stability of the shadow-draft client. Her environment was MSVS 2003, so I've been trying to convert it to MSVS 2005 Express. Final error is the failed to make texture one. I've been trying to avoid stepping into the trunk since I don't have much experience with it and I'm already out of my depth. :-\ Do you mean if I download, say the zip file at Root/Branches/viewer_1-22 from http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/branches/viewer_1-22 and follow the wikis for setting up cmake and the whole compile environment (I've done this a few times with standard and RC source downloads), that when I'm done, I'll have the shadow-draft code included? Thanks very much for your help, Vector -----Original Message----- From: sldev-bounces@lists.secondlife.com [mailto:sldev-bounces@lists.secondlife.com]On Behalf Of Ambrosia Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 11:33 PM To: Vector Hastings Cc: sldev@lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [sldev] shadow-draft problem Greetings Vector, To my knowledge, shadows are now in the trunk branch, so you might want to try and compile that one. For me it worked with the latest lldkdu.dll, tho at least under windows, it seems to have trouble with parsing the avatar_skeleton.xml. I wonder if anybody else gets that issue. Compiled under MSVS 2005 express on my side. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 08:18, Vector Hastings wrote: > I know this message was from waaaay back in the summer, but I'm now trying > to resurrect a derivative of that branch, and I'm getting the same error. > > Did you ever find a solution for this? I've ordered an old 2003 compiler, > which might fix my problem as the original source bundle I have is for 2003, > but it'd be nice to get what I have working with a (relatively) recent > compiler. (MSVS 2005 Express) > > Error is: ERROR: LLImageGL::createGLTexture: LLImageGL::createGLTexture > failed to make texture. > > I've tried removing llkdu.dll from within and without the project, and > checked as well as I can to make sure I've got appropriate looking artwork > files (though that's a muddled picture, I realize). > > > Thanks for any help, > > Vector _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From chaosstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 23 23:34:38 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Mon Feb 23 23:34:41 2009 Subject: [sldev] shadow-draft problem In-Reply-To: References: <9bb32d430902222332p4ebdbea7na5f9088415c78b12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9bb32d430902232334t2523868atf4b61222aec2b8@mail.gmail.com> No, the shadow codce is in trunk, not viewer_1-22. But, I'd not worry...the compile steps for trunk are the very same as for the viewer_1.22 branch, so the wiki 1.22 steps apply to it. I've successfully built the trunk under Microsoft Visial Express 2005 now. On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 03:49, Vector Hastings wrote: > Do you mean if I download, say the zip file at Root/Branches/viewer_1-22 > from http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/browser/branches/viewer_1-22 and > follow the wikis for setting up cmake and the whole compile environment > (I've done this a few times with standard and RC source downloads), that > when I'm done, I'll have the shadow-draft code included? From lenglish5 at cox.net Mon Feb 23 23:40:36 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Mon Feb 23 23:40:39 2009 Subject: [sldev] [AWG][mmox] Weekly groupies meeting... Message-ID: <49A3A474.5040209@cox.net> Sent to the mmox mailing list: As usual, we (AWG) are meeting at Zha's island (ThornBridgeTown) at 9:30 AM SLT (pacific coast time) for an hour or so to have a general "face to face" about relevant issues. Our discussion-topics range all over the place, but lately we've been keeping focused on MMOX-related issues. We would certainly like to have everyone in MMOX attend our meeting and I think we should have a short-term goal to make our upcoming MMOX in-world/real-world media streaming a regular thing so that people aren't required to attend a single world in order to have a "face to face." E.G., we need to set up regular virtual reality video conferencing with shared-world chat of some kind (and voice if/when we can swing it). Our long term goal should be to figure out how to teleport (or mimic the effects of TP) between participating worlds ***at least*** as well as the minimal OGP TP we've demoed between SL and OPenSim so that we could move from one world to the next to directly discuss world capabilities. That basically means: show up in one virtual world, click a "TP" button and show up in the next, whatever that means to the respective client/server architectures, while at least preserving identity (avatar name and host server) between worlds and able to interact with objects and avatars in the destination world and handle local chat. In the meantime, hope to see you tomorrow morning at the Groupies meeting. IM Zha Ewry, Tree Kyomoon or Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life to get the group membership authorizing you to come to the island at coordinates: http://slurl.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/130/23 Laters, Lawson English Saijanai Kuhn (ISL) _______________________________________________ mmox mailing list mmox@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox From me at signpostmarv.name Tue Feb 24 00:26:20 2009 From: me at signpostmarv.name (SignpostMarv Martin) Date: Tue Feb 24 00:26:43 2009 Subject: [sldev] In-world group to announce meetings/etc In-Reply-To: <493033a70902231035i6b7ff1cdy35f5f74319612f60@mail.gmail.com> References: <499DE8DB.1070408@lindenlab.com> <49A284FD.5070503@signpostmarv.name> <49A28892.2030207@signpostmarv.name> <493033a70902231035i6b7ff1cdy35f5f74319612f60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A3AF2C.10605@signpostmarv.name> For recurring events, Zai and I figured the best solution was to have the template prepend the "next " string to the {{#time}} function- so a meeting occuring at 2pm every Monday would literally just be entered as "Monday, 2pm". From the example on https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:HCalendar_event/Office_Hours {{hCalendar event/Office Hours |mode={{{mode|}}} |Resident=Magellan Linden |weekday=Tuesday |start=10:30am PST |end=11:30am PST |description=Storytelling. How I found Nautilus City and what I'm up to with this Mole Tank. |location=[http://slurl.com/secondlife/Omidyar/128/128/10 Omidyar] }} The auto-update method relies on the wiki cache expiring on a weekly basis, though if this fails to occur (for whatever reason), minor updates to the article can easily force a cache-refresh. The entire article effectively becomes a noticeboard for tacking memos about events (individual hCalendar event blocks) onto, with services such as Technorati's automatically detecting these then transforming the document into one suitable for subscribing in iCalendar, Google Calendar, Lightning etc. Zai and I also figured out a solution to apply the template to non-persons (e.g. articles representing groups, not individuals) by passing a blank namespace parameter, which defaults to User, e.g. |namespace={{{namespace|User}}} This means the existing Office Hours templates could be used for the Open Source meeting templates. If the template isn't sufficient, then new wrappers to https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:hCalendar_event could be put together, or as with the table-row mode template for the Office Hours system, entirely new templates could be put together, so long as the output followed the hCalendar spec: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar And yes, it is a great achievement, considering it has been languishing in development for over a year :-P ~ Marv. Gordon Wendt wrote: > Marv, does this auto update and take care of the issues with the > manually updated calendar that couldn't be group changed and ended up > falling behind on changes? If so then that's a great achievement > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:29 AM, SignpostMarv Martin > > wrote: > > btw, with the embedded calendar tech, its as simple as adding the > following URL to your Google Calendar, iCal, or other > webcal-supporting software: > http://feeds.technorati.com/event/http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting > > ~ Marv. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3244 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090224/888da6f9/smime.bin From soft at lindenlab.com Wed Feb 25 08:08:18 2009 From: soft at lindenlab.com (Soft) Date: Wed Feb 25 08:08:35 2009 Subject: [sldev] Open Source Meeting Thu 2pm Message-ID: Our Thursday open source meetings take place at 2pm. If there is anything you would like on the agenda... have at it! http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Source_Meeting/Agenda From joy at cs.cmu.edu Wed Feb 25 11:47:32 2009 From: joy at cs.cmu.edu (Joy) Date: Wed Feb 25 11:47:41 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation Message-ID: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> Hi all, I have developed t Yet Another SL viewer with integrated language translation function using CMU Statistical Machine Translation and Google language API. Can you kindly test it out and let me know if you have any comments and suggestions? The URL is: http://mlt.sv.cmu.edu/secondlife Best, Joy -- ---------------------------- Joy Ying Zhang Research Assistant Professor Carnegie Mellon University Silicon Valley Campus NASA Research Park Building 23 (MS 23-11) Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000 (650) 335-2824 From me at signpostmarv.name Wed Feb 25 14:57:41 2009 From: me at signpostmarv.name (SignpostMarv Martin) Date: Wed Feb 25 14:57:43 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <49A5CCE5.9090607@signpostmarv.name> dropping in on Help Island and other multi-lingual areas... ~ Marv. Joy wrote: > Hi all, > > I have developed t Yet Another SL viewer with integrated language > translation function using CMU Statistical Machine Translation and > Google language API. > Can you kindly test it out and let me know if you have any comments > and suggestions? > > The URL is: http://mlt.sv.cmu.edu/secondlife > > Best, > > Joy > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3244 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090225/4a7f76ea/smime.bin From me at signpostmarv.name Wed Feb 25 15:12:53 2009 From: me at signpostmarv.name (SignpostMarv Martin) Date: Wed Feb 25 15:12:56 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <49A5D075.9020509@signpostmarv.name> initial issue/bug: [15:11] SignpostMarv Martin: bon jour [ ] [15:11] SignpostMarv Martin: oui [ ] [15:11] SignpostMarv Martin: hello [ ] appending of empty brackets on own text. Should either be translated or no brackets appended. Should be configurable under Communication tab. ~ Marv. Joy wrote: > Hi all, > > I have developed t Yet Another SL viewer with integrated language > translation function using CMU Statistical Machine Translation and > Google language API. > Can you kindly test it out and let me know if you have any comments > and suggestions? > > The URL is: http://mlt.sv.cmu.edu/secondlife > > Best, > > Joy > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3244 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090225/1d49f9e0/smime.bin From me at signpostmarv.name Wed Feb 25 15:26:05 2009 From: me at signpostmarv.name (SignpostMarv Martin) Date: Wed Feb 25 15:26:10 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A5D075.9020509@signpostmarv.name> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <49A5D075.9020509@signpostmarv.name> Message-ID: <49A5D38D.7050604@signpostmarv.name> translation totally failed. language menu didn't indicate whether an option was enabled. ~ Marv. SignpostMarv Martin wrote: > initial issue/bug: > > [15:11] SignpostMarv Martin: bon jour [ ] > [15:11] SignpostMarv Martin: oui [ ] > [15:11] SignpostMarv Martin: hello [ ] > > appending of empty brackets on own text. Should either be translated > or no brackets appended. > > Should be configurable under Communication tab. > > > ~ Marv. > > Joy wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I have developed t Yet Another SL viewer with integrated language >> translation function using CMU Statistical Machine Translation and >> Google language API. >> Can you kindly test it out and let me know if you have any comments >> and suggestions? >> >> The URL is: http://mlt.sv.cmu.edu/secondlife >> >> Best, >> >> Joy >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3244 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090225/913671d8/smime.bin From sldev at free.fr Wed Feb 25 15:44:12 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Wed Feb 25 15:44:23 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:47:32 -0800, Joy wrote: > Hi all, > > I have developed t Yet Another SL viewer with integrated language > translation function using CMU Statistical Machine Translation and > Google language API. > Can you kindly test it out and let me know if you have any comments and > suggestions? > > The URL is: http://mlt.sv.cmu.edu/secondlife >From your very page examples: "Deuxi?me vie des logiciels de traduction", (which, once back-translated to English would mean - don't laugh ! - "The second life of translation software") instead of "Logiciel de traduction pour SecondLife" which would be the right translation. Automatic translators are utterly useless and totally unable to translate properly from simple languages such as English into more complex and subtle languages such as French, German, Chinese, Japanese... My advice is therefore: don't bother. Most people will mute you rather than enduring the clueless translators. Henri. From me at signpostmarv.name Wed Feb 25 15:51:38 2009 From: me at signpostmarv.name (SignpostMarv Martin) Date: Wed Feb 25 15:51:40 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <49A5D98A.5090604@signpostmarv.name> Automated translation is of use to non-native volunteers in helping them target and guestimate another volunteer to suit their needs. ~ Marv. Henri Beauchamp wrote: > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:47:32 -0800, Joy wrote: > > >> Hi all, >> >> I have developed t Yet Another SL viewer with integrated language >> translation function using CMU Statistical Machine Translation and >> Google language API. >> Can you kindly test it out and let me know if you have any comments and >> suggestions? >> >> The URL is: http://mlt.sv.cmu.edu/secondlife >> > > >From your very page examples: "Deuxi?me vie des logiciels de traduction", > (which, once back-translated to English would mean - don't laugh ! - > "The second life of translation software") instead of "Logiciel de > traduction pour SecondLife" which would be the right translation. > > Automatic translators are utterly useless and totally unable to translate > properly from simple languages such as English into more complex and subtle > languages such as French, German, Chinese, Japanese... > > My advice is therefore: don't bother. Most people will mute you rather > than enduring the clueless translators. > > Henri. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3244 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090225/1dc68d29/smime-0001.bin From TammyNowotny at mac.com Wed Feb 25 18:56:03 2009 From: TammyNowotny at mac.com (Tammy Nowotny) Date: Wed Feb 25 18:56:17 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <49A604C3.7030406@mac.com> Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > Automatic translators are utterly useless and totally unable to translate > properly from simple languages such as English into more complex and subtle > languages such as French, German, Chinese, Japanese... > > My advice is therefore: don't bother. Most people will mute you rather > than enduring the clueless translators. > > LOL, Henri... English when spoken by native speakers is just as complex and subtle as any other language. --Tammy Nowotny From sldev at free.fr Thu Feb 26 02:36:57 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Thu Feb 26 02:37:09 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> Message-ID: <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:55:50 -0500, Timothy Horrigan wrote: > Henri Beauchamp wrote: > > > > Automatic translators are utterly useless and totally unable to translate > > properly from simple languages such as English into more complex and subtle > > languages such as French, German, Chinese, Japanese... > > > > My advice is therefore: don't bother. Most people will mute you rather > > than enduring the clueless translators. > > LOL, Henri... English when spoken by native speakers is just as complex > and subtle as any other language. You can say and explain very complex things, even with "simple" languages, but I assure you that English is incredibly simpler than French or German (since I did learn all three, I know what I am speaking about). The grammar is incredibly much simpler in English, and the vocabulary is simpler too. For example, you can translate "to get" in at least 30 different verbs in French. or "power" into two different names (these are just two examples out of my head, but cases are countless). Fact is that at school (some 4 decades ago), I just needed a couple of months to learn the basis of English, while even after three years, I could never express myself as fluently in German (and since forgot pretty much everything I was taught in this language). That's also one of the reasons why English is so successful as an international "common" language: it's easier to learn and use than most (if not all) other languages. It does not mean that you can't have the same meaning expressed in English and other, more complex languages such as French, but it does mean that these latter languages are way more accurate when it comes down to the choice of words and/or grammar constructs (why do you think French is still considered and used as the diplomatic language in many iternational instances (such as the UN) ?... It's certainly not just to please the French People), and choosing the wrong word when translating results in a meaningless translation, or worst, into the another meaning than the proper one. To get back on topic, the result is that to properly translate from English to French you need more context than to translate from French to English, and that's why real time translators (almost always) fail so lamentably in the former case while (sometimes) doing an acceptable job in the latter case. Henri. From monkowsk at watson.ibm.com Thu Feb 26 08:29:31 2009 From: monkowsk at watson.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Thu Feb 26 08:29:47 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> Henri Beauchamp wrote: >>>Automatic translators are utterly useless and totally unable to translate >>>properly from simple languages such as English into more complex and subtle >>>languages such as French, German, Chinese, Japanese... ... > You can say and explain very complex things, even with "simple" languages, > but I assure you that English is incredibly simpler than French or German > (since I did learn all three, I know what I am speaking about). > The grammar is incredibly much simpler in English, and the vocabulary is > simpler too. For example, you can translate "to get" in at least 30 > different verbs in French. or "power" into two different names (these are > just two examples out of my head, but cases are countless). > Fact is that at school (some 4 decades ago), I just needed a couple of > months to learn the basis of English, while even after three years, I > could never express myself as fluently in German (and since forgot > pretty much everything I was taught in this language). That's also one of > the reasons why English is so successful as an international "common" > language: it's easier to learn and use than most (if not all) other > languages. Perhaps it's just that speakers of English are more tolerant of mistakes than are Francophones. Although your English is not bad, "incredibly much simpler" is not good English. One translates "into" not "in". You meant "nouns", not "names". "Out of my head" means lost emotional control. I assume you meant "off the top of my head". That's "basics", not "basis". It should be "have since forgotten", not "since forgot". I have been trying to learn French for decades. The problem I have is that the only places I can hear it spoken is on my XM radio and on rented videos. From my experience, Chinese grammar is less complex than English grammar; Spanish phonetics are more consistent than any of the languages you list above; and three and four year old children are amazingly adept at learning any language. :-) Mike From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 08:39:46 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Thu Feb 26 08:41:16 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <49A6C5D2.6060300@Gmail.com> I believe usually language learning gets harder with age Mike Monkowski escreveu: > Henri Beauchamp wrote: >>>> Automatic translators are utterly useless and totally unable to >>>> translate >>>> properly from simple languages such as English into more complex >>>> and subtle >>>> languages such as French, German, Chinese, Japanese... > ... >> You can say and explain very complex things, even with "simple" >> languages, >> but I assure you that English is incredibly simpler than French or >> German >> (since I did learn all three, I know what I am speaking about). >> The grammar is incredibly much simpler in English, and the vocabulary is >> simpler too. For example, you can translate "to get" in at least 30 >> different verbs in French. or "power" into two different names (these >> are >> just two examples out of my head, but cases are countless). >> Fact is that at school (some 4 decades ago), I just needed a couple of >> months to learn the basis of English, while even after three years, I >> could never express myself as fluently in German (and since forgot >> pretty much everything I was taught in this language). That's also >> one of >> the reasons why English is so successful as an international "common" >> language: it's easier to learn and use than most (if not all) other >> languages. > > Perhaps it's just that speakers of English are more tolerant of > mistakes than are Francophones. Although your English is not bad, > "incredibly much simpler" is not good English. One translates "into" > not "in". You meant "nouns", not "names". "Out of my head" means > lost emotional control. I assume you meant "off the top of my head". > That's "basics", not "basis". It should be "have since forgotten", > not "since forgot". > > I have been trying to learn French for decades. The problem I have is > that the only places I can hear it spoken is on my XM radio and on > rented videos. > > From my experience, Chinese grammar is less complex than English > grammar; Spanish phonetics are more consistent than any of the > languages you list above; and three and four year old children are > amazingly adept at learning any language. > > :-) > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From gcanaday at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 09:31:05 2009 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Thu Feb 26 09:31:22 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with =?iso-8859-1?q?integrated=09universal?= translation In-Reply-To: <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <200902261231.05939.gcanaday@gmail.com> If English were easier than the others we wouldn't get such horrible translations into it. I'm used to seeing multi-linguals speaking French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese as their four primary languages simply because they are so similar and based from the same root. They all share a lot of vocabulary even though native speakers insist that they are so different they can't understand one another. English pulls words from nearly every language so there isn't as much overlap from others. Because of that, all of the talk about English being simpler to learn for a non-native speaker truly boggles my mind because that is the diametric opposite from what I've seen first-hand. Add gender to the language and you've screwed the average native English speaker. We don't use it and don't understand it. That's where we get messed up. Japanese is actually extremely simple. German isn't as bad once you realize that the 47-letter word with only two vowels is actually three words concatenated, and that "ei" is pronouced as the English "i" and "ie" is pronounced as the English "e." Note that the pronunciation of these two diphthongs is the second letter English pronunciation. Not difficult for an English speaker but Germans have to practice learning it. Even Gaidhlig (Scottish Gaelic) has an extremely consistent phonetic structure and spelling. It's as consistent as Spanish is to me. Point is, it doesn't matter what the universal translater does, it's going to suck at it. No translator can make up for human mistakes. --GC On Thursday 26 February 2009 11:29:31 am Mike Monkowski wrote: > Henri Beauchamp wrote: > >>>Automatic translators are utterly useless and totally unable to > >>> translate properly from simple languages such as English into more > >>> complex and subtle languages such as French, German, Chinese, > >>> Japanese... > > ... > > > You can say and explain very complex things, even with "simple" > > languages, but I assure you that English is incredibly simpler than > > French or German (since I did learn all three, I know what I am speaking > > about). > > The grammar is incredibly much simpler in English, and the vocabulary is > > simpler too. For example, you can translate "to get" in at least 30 > > different verbs in French. or "power" into two different names (these are > > just two examples out of my head, but cases are countless). > > Fact is that at school (some 4 decades ago), I just needed a couple of > > months to learn the basis of English, while even after three years, I > > could never express myself as fluently in German (and since forgot > > pretty much everything I was taught in this language). That's also one of > > the reasons why English is so successful as an international "common" > > language: it's easier to learn and use than most (if not all) other > > languages. > > Perhaps it's just that speakers of English are more tolerant of mistakes > than are Francophones. Although your English is not bad, "incredibly > much simpler" is not good English. One translates "into" not "in". You > meant "nouns", not "names". "Out of my head" means lost emotional > control. I assume you meant "off the top of my head". That's "basics", > not "basis". It should be "have since forgotten", not "since forgot". > > I have been trying to learn French for decades. The problem I have is > that the only places I can hear it spoken is on my XM radio and on > rented videos. > > From my experience, Chinese grammar is less complex than English > grammar; Spanish phonetics are more consistent than any of the languages > you list above; and three and four year old children are amazingly adept > at learning any language. > > :-) > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From kelly at lindenlab.com Thu Feb 26 09:34:17 2009 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Thu Feb 26 09:34:24 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A6C5D2.6060300@Gmail.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> <49A6C5D2.6060300@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A6D299.5090807@lindenlab.com> I personally think this was a great project! I also think the method of soliciting feedback and review on this list was great. Even if you disagree with the idea of computer translation this project is an excellent example of one kind of thing people will want to do with a plug-in system. Looking at what it took to integrate this is a good use case for any plug-in api. Thanks Joy! - Kelly From philip at lindenlab.com Thu Feb 26 09:55:39 2009 From: philip at lindenlab.com (Philip Rosedale) Date: Thu Feb 26 09:55:41 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SLViewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A6D299.5090807@lindenlab.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com><49A6C5D2.6060300@Gmail.com> <49A6D299.5090807@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <49A6D79B.60603@lindenlab.com> Yes I would second that this looks like a really great project!! Even bad auto-translation is a huge step forward in the overall mission of SL. I'd love to see something like this in all SL viewers and easily accessible through the UI. Thanks! Philip Kelly Linden wrote: > I personally think this was a great project! I also think the method > of soliciting feedback and review on this list was great. Even if you > disagree with the idea of computer translation this project is an > excellent example of one kind of thing people will want to do with a > plug-in system. Looking at what it took to integrate this is a good > use case for any plug-in api. > > Thanks Joy! > > - Kelly > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From missannotoole at yahoo.com Thu Feb 26 10:05:29 2009 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Thu Feb 26 10:05:32 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SLViewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A6D79B.60603@lindenlab.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com><49A6C5D2.6060300@Gmail.com> <49A6D299.5090807@lindenlab.com> <49A6D79B.60603@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <886724.9485.qm@web59107.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Can we please make it so the translator is intelligent enough to determine what your selected language is and produce that translation automatically? (Instead of filling chat with dozens of statements in all the languages of the world) I.e.; someone speaks in French while you are set to Japanese and someone else is set to German. Everyone sees French in main chat but on your screen you also see a Japanese translation and the person with German also sees a German translation. (And the translated text is in a user selected color for translations.) Great globalization idea. ________________________________ From: Philip Rosedale To: Kelly Linden Cc: sldev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:55:39 PM Subject: Re: [sldev] Please help testing the SLViewer with integrated universal translation Yes I would second that this looks like a really great project!! Even bad auto-translation is a huge step forward in the overall mission of SL. I'd love to see something like this in all SL viewers and easily accessible through the UI. Thanks! Philip Kelly Linden wrote: > I personally think this was a great project! I also think the method of soliciting feedback and review on this list was great. Even if you disagree with the idea of computer translation this project is an excellent example of one kind of thing people will want to do with a plug-in system. Looking at what it took to integrate this is a good use case for any plug-in api. > > Thanks Joy! > > - Kelly > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090226/206522eb/attachment-0001.htm From sldev at free.fr Thu Feb 26 12:10:07 2009 From: sldev at free.fr (Henri Beauchamp) Date: Thu Feb 26 12:10:18 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <20090226211007.904aa97c.sldev@free.fr> To avoid excessive noise on the list, I'm grouping two replies here, and this will be my last message on the list about this topic (email me privately if you wish to continue the argument, please). On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:34:17 -0800, Kelly Linden wrote: > I personally think this was a great project! I also think the method of > soliciting feedback and review on this list was great. Even if you > disagree with the idea of computer translation this project is an > excellent example of one kind of thing people will want to do with a > plug-in system. Looking at what it took to integrate this is a good use > case for any plug-in api. > > Thanks Joy! I never said it was a bad example of user-ran project neither that the request for feedback on this list was a bad idea. I simply said it was pretty doomed to failure because of the poor (and actually pitiful) results returned by the automatic translators it is relying on. In any case, should it make its way into the official viewers some day, pretty please, make it an *optional* feature that each user can *disable* entirely on their end. Else, you'll find many non-English speakers muted in world... On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:29:31 -0500, Mike Monkowski wrote: > Henri Beauchamp wrote: > >>>Automatic translators are utterly useless and totally unable to translate > >>>properly from simple languages such as English into more complex and subtle > >>>languages such as French, German, Chinese, Japanese... > ... > > You can say and explain very complex things, even with "simple" languages, > > but I assure you that English is incredibly simpler than French or German > > (since I did learn all three, I know what I am speaking about). > > The grammar is incredibly much simpler in English, and the vocabulary is > > simpler too. For example, you can translate "to get" in at least 30 > > different verbs in French. or "power" into two different names (these are > > just two examples out of my head, but cases are countless). > > Fact is that at school (some 4 decades ago), I just needed a couple of > > months to learn the basis of English, while even after three years, I > > could never express myself as fluently in German (and since forgot > > pretty much everything I was taught in this language). That's also one of > > the reasons why English is so successful as an international "common" > > language: it's easier to learn and use than most (if not all) other > > languages. > > Perhaps it's just that speakers of English are more tolerant of mistakes > than are Francophones. My point was not about simple mistakes, such as using the wrong pronoum and/or gender, but about the very meaning of the translated text (which can become right out the opposite of what the original text was all about), something automatic translators are very prone to produce. > Although your English is not bad, Thank you. It is good enough to clearly express my thoughts and avoid misunderstandings, which is really all what I care about. I don't pretend writing a perfect and 100% grammatically correct English, but if I were to write this very email in French and then run it through an automatic translator before sending it on this list, my guess is that you won't understand a single thing... However, judging someone's skills, based on an email they wrote in five minutes and did not re-read, is not very reliable a method... > "incredibly much simpler" is not good English. If you say so. > One translates "into" not "in". Yeah, I used "in" in one place by mistake and "into" just a few words later, which only proves I did not re-read myself before pressing the "Send" button of my email client. > You meant "nouns", not "names". True. I really should have seen that one while writing it... Shame on me ! > "Out of my head" means lost emotional control. I assume you meant > "off the top of my head". This is an idiomatic expression that does not translate directly into French and Google gives the word for word translation "sur le haut de ma t?te" (which would be the case for a hat when worn, but certainly not for examples given "off the top of my head") instead of the proper equivalent expression which is "qui me vienent ? l'esprit". As you can see the automatic translator is still much worst than me :-P > That's "basics", not "basis". Shame on me again, should have seen that one too. > It should be "have since forgotten", not "since forgot". One of the grammatical rules in English that I can never porperly remember (we French got many troubles with the use of "since", "for" and "ago" together with their associated tenses). > I have been trying to learn French for decades. The problem I have is > that the only places I can hear it spoken is on my XM radio and on > rented videos. And reading the net-speak of so many English writers on Internet won't help you either if you were, like me, a French guy trying to improve his skills via practice... > From my experience, Chinese grammar is less complex than English > grammar; Spanish phonetics are more consistent than any of the languages > you list above; and three and four year old children are amazingly adept > at learning any language. So what ?... This does not make English a more complex language, neither French a simpler one. I'm afraid your argument is moot. And I did not even speak about the spelling in French (or German), the number of tenses (19 in French), or the declinations in German... You sound like making it a merit related thing to speak one language or another based on its complexity, while my point was to show that automatic translators are (currently) unable to translate properly *because* of the differences in this complexity (translating one verb such as "to get", or an adjective such as "free" from English to French and vice versa is not a bijective operation, and that's why it fails in automatic translators as they currently are unable to "understand" what they are translating, or at least to make a guess work using the context)... Regards, Henri. From kelly at lindenlab.com Thu Feb 26 12:28:48 2009 From: kelly at lindenlab.com (Kelly Linden) Date: Thu Feb 26 12:28:56 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <20090226211007.904aa97c.sldev@free.fr> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> <20090226211007.904aa97c.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <49A6FB80.1020801@lindenlab.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20090226/aa5427a6/attachment.htm From robla at lindenlab.com Thu Feb 26 12:40:46 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Thu Feb 26 12:41:03 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer withintegrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <49A6FB80.1020801@lindenlab.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr><49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com><20090226211007.904aa97c.sldev@free.fr> <49A6FB80.1020801@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <49A6FE4E.1090405@lindenlab.com> On 2/26/09 12:28 PM, Kelly Linden wrote: > I was only commenting on the actual project, to which I say again: > Great work Joy! Totally agreed! This is really interesting work! Joy, how much did you need to modify in order to make this work? I wasn't able to find the source code at the URL you provide (http://mlt.sv.cmu.edu/secondlife ), otherwise I would have looked at this myself. Rob From monkowsk at watson.ibm.com Thu Feb 26 13:10:22 2009 From: monkowsk at watson.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Thu Feb 26 13:10:27 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL Viewer with integrated universal translation In-Reply-To: <20090226211007.904aa97c.sldev@free.fr> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr> <49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com> <20090226211007.904aa97c.sldev@free.fr> Message-ID: <49A7053E.5040802@watson.ibm.com> Henri, I hope you didn't take my reply too seriously. I'm sure my French is much worse than your English. I just felt that a sentiment such as "simple languages such as English into more complex and subtle languages such as French" deserved a friendly rejoinder. I have worked on speech recognition and natural language understanding and have been suprised by the power of statistical methods. CMU has been a leader in language processing, so I expect that their CMU Statistical Machine Translation will continue to improve. Getting it into the hands of more users is a good way to facilitate that. Mike Henri Beauchamp wrote: > I never said it was a bad example of user-ran project neither that the > request for feedback on this list was a bad idea. > > I simply said it was pretty doomed to failure because of the poor > (and actually pitiful) results returned by the automatic translators > it is relying on. ... > My point was not about simple mistakes, such as using the wrong pronoum > and/or gender, but about the very meaning of the translated text (which > can become right out the opposite of what the original text was all about), > something automatic translators are very prone to produce. ... > It is good enough to clearly express my thoughts and avoid misunderstandings, > which is really all what I care about. I don't pretend writing a perfect and > 100% grammatically correct English, but if I were to write this very email > in French and then run it through an automatic translator before sending it > on this list, my guess is that you won't understand a single thing... > > However, judging someone's skills, based on an email they wrote in five > minutes and did not re-read, is not very reliable a method... From dirk.krause at pixelpark.com Thu Feb 26 13:36:42 2009 From: dirk.krause at pixelpark.com (Dirk Krause) Date: Thu Feb 26 13:36:50 2009 Subject: [sldev] question regarding caps In-Reply-To: <49A6FB80.1020801@lindenlab.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <20090226004412.e2a4ddcf.sldev@free.fr><49A604B6.7030103@mac.com> <20090226113657.20ab1987.sldev@free.fr> <49A6C36B.4050705@watson.ibm.com><20090226211007.904aa97c.sldev@free.fr> <49A6FB80.1020801@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <72C1C9E5780A134F896530D480F22BB70306CF25@hermes.bitlab.de> Hi, I have a question regarding the viewer/server communication: are the inventory requests done via caps or via UDP? If they're done via UDP, what was the problem with the Inventory CAP that was deployed sometime last year? Thanks, Dirk/Bartholomew From gcanaday at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 14:18:20 2009 From: gcanaday at gmail.com (Glen Canaday) Date: Thu Feb 26 14:18:32 2009 Subject: [sldev] Please help testing the SL =?iso-8859-1?q?Viewer=09with=09integrated=09universal?= translation In-Reply-To: <49A6D299.5090807@lindenlab.com> References: <49A5A054.1020001@cs.cmu.edu> <49A6C5D2.6060300@Gmail.com> <49A6D299.5090807@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <200902261718.21080.gcanaday@gmail.com> Is that what it was about? Plugins rock. --GC On Thursday 26 February 2009 12:34:17 pm Kelly Linden wrote: > I personally think this was a great project! I also think the method of > soliciting feedback and review on this list was great. Even if you > disagree with the idea of computer translation this project is an > excellent example of one kind of thing people will want to do with a > plug-in system. Looking at what it took to integrate this is a good use > case for any plug-in api. > > Thanks Joy! > > - Kelly > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From latifer at streamgrid.net Fri Feb 27 08:44:25 2009 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Fri Feb 27 08:44:27 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows build of trunk fails during linking Message-ID: <5ebce2ec0902270844y4ce0591bqd7c385673d7fc0c0@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Attempting to build on a box that has otherwise no trouble building win32 version of Second Life. Recently the build of trunk stopped working for me with the following linking error: LINK : fatal error LNK1181: cannot open input file 'wldap32.lib' for both windows-crash-logger and secondlife-bin projects. You guys got any ideas as to why? -- L From brad at lindenlab.com Fri Feb 27 12:37:32 2009 From: brad at lindenlab.com (Brad Kittenbrink (Brad Linden)) Date: Fri Feb 27 12:37:26 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows build of trunk fails during linking In-Reply-To: <5ebce2ec0902270844y4ce0591bqd7c385673d7fc0c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <5ebce2ec0902270844y4ce0591bqd7c385673d7fc0c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49A84F0C.6000206@lindenlab.com> I suspect it's due to the recent branch that merged into trunk called dll-msvcrt. We switched our project settings to generate code against the dll MSVCRT implementation, and as a result rebuilt all of our library packages accordingly (I'll be posting more on this topic shortly). If I recall, this additional dependency was introduced by accident in one of the rebuilt library packages (apr I think) and I never took the time to track down exactly why. It should be part of the Windows SDK(or Platform SDK as it used to be called), and if it's missing it might mean you're using an older version. We are definitely not using this functionality in the viewer, so I'll get started on tracking down how to remove this dependency. In the mean time, if upgrading to the latest version of the WindowsSDK doesn't fix your problem, I'd be happy to get you a patch that will revert to the old library builds and static MSVCRT implementation to work around this issue. -Brad Latif Khalifa wrote: > Hi, > > Attempting to build on a box that has otherwise no trouble building > win32 version of Second Life. Recently the build of trunk stopped > working for me with the following linking error: > > LINK : fatal error LNK1181: cannot open input file 'wldap32.lib' > > for both windows-crash-logger and secondlife-bin projects. You guys > got any ideas as to why? > > -- L > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From latifer at streamgrid.net Fri Feb 27 16:37:12 2009 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Fri Feb 27 16:37:15 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows build of trunk fails during linking In-Reply-To: <49A84F0C.6000206@lindenlab.com> References: <5ebce2ec0902270844y4ce0591bqd7c385673d7fc0c0@mail.gmail.com> <49A84F0C.6000206@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <5ebce2ec0902271637v4c843ec4ua07a5572b79d922d@mail.gmail.com> You were right. Upgrading Windows SDK solved it, thanks! Btw. looks like latest libcurl binary distributed with the viewer libs is compiled with LDAP support causing dependency on wldap32.dl. -Latif On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Brad Kittenbrink (Brad Linden) wrote: > I suspect it's due to the recent branch that merged into trunk called > dll-msvcrt. ? We switched our project settings to generate code against the > dll MSVCRT implementation, and as a result rebuilt all of our library > packages accordingly (I'll be posting more on this topic shortly). > > If I recall, this additional dependency was introduced by accident in one of > the rebuilt library packages (apr I think) and I never took the time to > track down exactly why. ?It should be part of the Windows SDK(or Platform > SDK as it used to be called), and if it's missing it might mean you're using > an older version. > > We are definitely not using this functionality in the viewer, so I'll get > started on tracking down how to remove this dependency. > > In the mean time, if upgrading to the latest version of the WindowsSDK > doesn't fix your problem, I'd be happy to get you a patch that will revert > to the old library builds and static MSVCRT implementation to work around > this issue. > > -Brad > > > Latif Khalifa wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Attempting to build on a box that has otherwise no trouble building >> win32 version of Second Life. Recently the build of trunk stopped >> working for me with the following linking error: >> >> LINK : fatal error LNK1181: cannot open input file 'wldap32.lib' >> >> for both windows-crash-logger and secondlife-bin projects. You guys >> got any ideas as to why? >> >> -- L >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > From thomas.shikami at online.de Sat Feb 28 14:28:24 2009 From: thomas.shikami at online.de (Thomas Shikami) Date: Sat Feb 28 14:28:37 2009 Subject: [sldev] Windows build of trunk fails during linking In-Reply-To: <49A84F0C.6000206@lindenlab.com> References: <5ebce2ec0902270844y4ce0591bqd7c385673d7fc0c0@mail.gmail.com> <49A84F0C.6000206@lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <49A9BA88.4090603@online.de> Brad Kittenbrink (Brad Linden) wrote: > I suspect it's due to the recent branch that merged into trunk called > dll-msvcrt. We switched our project settings to generate code > against the dll MSVCRT implementation, and as a result rebuilt all of > our library packages accordingly (I'll be posting more on this topic > shortly). I guess this change caused http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12161 As since expat and alike now link against the dll version of msvcr80.dll they share locale with mozilla implementation. Modifying fix SL-35450 to be applied to windows as well fixed VWR-12161 for me