From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Oct 1 03:07:49 2009 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 12:07:49 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [VIEWER] curl trouble In-Reply-To: References: <3a880e2c0909300855v1d6d8dd4u5fac21f937258593@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091001100749.GA12962@alinoe.com> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 03:21:08PM -0400, Anna Gulaev wrote: > <= Recv data, 0000000155 bytes (0x0000009b) > 39 35 0d 0a 3c 48 54 4d 4c 3e 3c 48 45 41 44 3e 95.. > 0a 3c 54 49 54 4c 45 3e 75 70 64 61 74 65 3c 2f .update</ > 54 49 54 4c 45 3e 0a 3c 2f 48 45 41 44 3e 3c 42 TITLE>.</HEAD><B > 4f 44 59 3e 0a 3c 50 3e 3c 76 73 5f 72 65 74 3e ODY>.<P><vs_ret> > 73 74 75 66 66 20 67 6f 65 73 20 68 65 72 65 0a stuff goes here. > 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d ---------------- > 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 66 39 --------------f9 > 37 39 32 37 61 39 39 33 61 32 0d 0a 3c 2f 76 73 7927a993a2..</vs > 5f 72 65 74 3e 3c 2f 50 3e 0a 3c 2f 42 4f 44 59 _ret></P>.</BODY > 3e 3c 2f 48 54 4d 4c 3e 0a 0d 0a ></HTML>... > <= Recv data, 0000000005 bytes (0x00000005) > 30 0d 0a 0d 0a 0.... > > == Info: Connection #0 to host xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx left intact Don't even know what this thread is about, heh, but it occurred to me that everywhere there is 0d 0a as line terminator, except at the end of </HTML>. If ... 4c 3e 0a causes the 3e to be eaten because it is assumed to be 0d, could that explain something? -- Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Oct 1 03:09:52 2009 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 12:09:52 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [VIEWER] curl trouble In-Reply-To: <20091001100749.GA12962@alinoe.com> References: <a7a2e650909291937q2b74d14kd691b94cdc768c2b@mail.gmail.com> <3a880e2c0909300855v1d6d8dd4u5fac21f937258593@mail.gmail.com> <a7a2e650909301221o50dac2f3t338d5a4c8ee1fe1f@mail.gmail.com> <20091001100749.GA12962@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <20091001100952.GB12962@alinoe.com> Oh, there's a 0d 'missing' after the </P> too. On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:07:49PM +0200, Carlo Wood wrote: > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 03:21:08PM -0400, Anna Gulaev wrote: > > <= Recv data, 0000000155 bytes (0x0000009b) > > 39 35 0d 0a 3c 48 54 4d 4c 3e 3c 48 45 41 44 3e 95..<HTML><HEAD> > > 0a 3c 54 49 54 4c 45 3e 75 70 64 61 74 65 3c 2f .<TITLE>update</ > > 54 49 54 4c 45 3e 0a 3c 2f 48 45 41 44 3e 3c 42 TITLE>.</HEAD><B > > 4f 44 59 3e 0a 3c 50 3e 3c 76 73 5f 72 65 74 3e ODY>.<P><vs_ret> > > 73 74 75 66 66 20 67 6f 65 73 20 68 65 72 65 0a stuff goes here. > > 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d ---------------- > > 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 2d 66 39 --------------f9 > > 37 39 32 37 61 39 39 33 61 32 0d 0a 3c 2f 76 73 7927a993a2..</vs > > 5f 72 65 74 3e 3c 2f 50 3e 0a 3c 2f 42 4f 44 59 _ret></P>.</BODY > > 3e 3c 2f 48 54 4d 4c 3e 0a 0d 0a ></HTML>... > > <= Recv data, 0000000005 bytes (0x00000005) > > 30 0d 0a 0d 0a 0.... > > > > == Info: Connection #0 to host xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx left intact > > Don't even know what this thread is about, heh, but > it occurred to me that everywhere there is 0d 0a as > line terminator, except at the end of </HTML>. > > If ... 4c 3e 0a causes the 3e to be eaten because > it is assumed to be 0d, could that explain something? > > -- > Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> From danielravennest at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 09:54:08 2009 From: danielravennest at gmail.com (Dani Eder) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 11:54:08 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Object contents limits In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1254337205.11683.sldev@lists.secondlife.com> References: <mailman.5.1254337205.11683.sldev@lists.secondlife.com> Message-ID: <4AC4DEB0.5090304@gmail.com> > I'm trying to cover > related windows under a topic, and keep the pages a readable size (a > separate page for every window and menu item would be too many and too > short). > > Is there anything in the code that limits the contents of an object? for example: - Max number of contained items, other than practical limits where many hundreds of items takes a long time to open) - Max depth of nested objects within other objects - An object containing itself, or an infinite loop with object A which contains object B which contains object A, From stickman at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 17:40:00 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:40:00 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Object contents limits In-Reply-To: <4AC4DEB0.5090304@gmail.com> References: <mailman.5.1254337205.11683.sldev@lists.secondlife.com> <4AC4DEB0.5090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910011740w6a67ab15g7cdcd14702d547c4@mail.gmail.com> > Is there anything in the code that limits the contents of an object? > for example: > > - Max number of contained items, other than practical limits where many > hundreds of items takes a long time to open) I'm not finding anything on Jira, but I remember people talking about an issue where if you have 1024+ items in an object's inventory, it will fail to load. I don't know if that's just too much for it to handle, or if that breaks some kind of internal limit that isn't properly checked. This looks related: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1571 This is probably what I was thinking about: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3330 > - Max depth of nested objects within other objects None as far as I know. From what I know, when you rez an object it loads the "full" information, shape, textures, etc, but only the basic information of that object's inventory, and nothing deeper. Rez an item from that object's inventory, and it'll do the same thing. Since it doesn't load all the inventory levels, it doesn't matter how deep it is. You won't reach a limit because it only ever sees one level deeper. > - An object containing itself, or an infinite loop with object A which > contains object B which contains object A, Not possible as far as I know. Might be possible if you can do some UUID manipulation or something. I'd be interested to know if you could make it work. A Linden with access to the actual serverside limits, or a programmer with access to any clientside limits, may be able to tell you more than an amateur working with practical experience and hearsay like me. Also, this page probably doesn't help you at all, but could be updated if we get official information. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits -Stickman From merov at lindenlab.com Thu Oct 1 18:18:10 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 18:18:10 -0700 Subject: [sldev] SNOW-222 : request before committing the patch In-Reply-To: <4E3C5642-C55A-49A3-89B4-020DE557FEB4@gmail.com> References: <78f69850909231057k15b17d60l23689250a9ac8350@mail.gmail.com> <78f69850909241805k30b02654t6bf8de0f9cbf85a0@mail.gmail.com> <78f69850909251850x76f01bafm93d33649503857a9@mail.gmail.com> <78f69850909270056q7353feb4te0aa9a9c408b7104@mail.gmail.com> <79EE86FD-0CC4-430E-8FE4-4B9ADBE33C73@gmail.com> <20090928105438.GA26838@alinoe.com> <78f69850909292216j77d62045x6be4e796c9e423d1@mail.gmail.com> <4E3C5642-C55A-49A3-89B4-020DE557FEB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78f69850910011818v62745606xa273aa2994a12fb@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Continuing on that thread but on a different bug now: the "About Land..." crash. Well, the internal version I pulled that "worked" didn't actually worked that well at all. I spent a lot of time compiling various revisions and the result is: the new audio panel is buggy and has always been since its creation. No help to expect from the treasure trove of internal code :( The good news though is that simply commenting out that panel (all references to mPanelAudio in llfloaterland.h and .cpp) works around the crash neatly. Aimee said she was to give a try to some audio panel cleanup but, if that can't make it on time, I'll commit the patch with this workaround tomorrow. We'll still be able to turn in on in a later commit. Does that work for everybody? Cheers, - Merov On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Aimee Trescothick < aimee.trescothick at gmail.com> wrote: > > On 30 Sep 2009, at 06:16, Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > > On Mac though, this fetch worker sucks up the entire resource of the fetch > thread and prevents any other worker to do anything. If I modify the UUID of > IMG_DEFAULT to point to some existing file in the skins, everything works > fine (AimeeT hasn't confirmed yet if this works for her). > > > Sorry, I did comment on SNOW-222 that the hack does fix grey-world for me. > I ended up leaving the code as it is though and providing a d2114404- > dd59-4a4d-8e6c-49359e91bbf0.j2c file in skins/default/textures instead, > which has the same effect. > > Aimee. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091001/9822e2e2/attachment.htm From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Oct 2 04:56:48 2009 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 13:56:48 +0200 Subject: [sldev] building snowglobe "standalone" on linux... Message-ID: <200910021356.48813.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> ... is like don quixote's fight against the windmills. every time I do a new svn checkout a new dependency to some obscure, not-even- publicly-released library pops up, and after I fulfilled that dependency, compilation fails a few modules later with some errors where someone seemingly didnt check in ALL files he/she changed... so what am I supposed to do? thanks for any hints. oh, building other than standalone is out of the question, I need it to build w/o any internet connection so that i can put it on openSUSE build service. bye, LC From carlo at alinoe.com Fri Oct 2 06:19:05 2009 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:19:05 +0200 Subject: [sldev] building snowglobe "standalone" on linux... In-Reply-To: <200910021356.48813.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <200910021356.48813.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <20091002131905.GA12750@alinoe.com> On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 01:56:48PM +0200, Lance Corrimal wrote: > ... is like don quixote's fight against the windmills. > > every time I do a new svn checkout a new dependency to some obscure, not-even- > publicly-released library pops up, and after I fulfilled that dependency, > compilation fails a few modules later with some errors where someone seemingly > didnt check in ALL files he/she changed... I build standalone too. Currently the only unreleased dependency appears to be jsoncpp (and, still, tut). The rest (debian): >for lib in `ldd indra/viewer-linux-x86_64-debug/newview/secondlife-bin | egrep -v '(/sl/|/usr/local/)' | sed -e 's/.* => //;s/ .*//'`; do dpkg -S $lib; done libopenal1: /usr/lib/libopenal.so.1 libalut0: /usr/lib/libalut.so.0 libfreetype6: /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 libboost-program-options1.34.1: /usr/lib/libboost_program_options-gcc42-mt-1_34_1.so.1.34.1 libboost-regex1.34.1: /usr/lib/libboost_regex-gcc42-mt-1_34_1.so.1.34.1 libglib2.0-0: /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0 libglib2.0-0: /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0 libglu1-mesa: /usr/lib/libGLU.so.1 diversion by nvidia-glx from: /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 diversion by nvidia-glx to: /usr/lib/nvidia/libGL.so.1.xlibmesa nvidia-glx, libgl1-mesa-glx: /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 libx11-6: /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 libllmozlib2: /usr/lib/libllmozlib2.so.0 libsdl1.2debian-alsa: /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 libc6: /lib/libpthread.so.0 libgtk2.0-0: /usr/lib/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 libc6: /lib/libm.so.6 libgtk2.0-0: /usr/lib/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 libfontconfig1: /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 libglib2.0-0: /usr/lib/libgthread-2.0.so.0 libc6: /lib/librt.so.1 libpng12-0: /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0 libxmlrpc-epi0: /usr/lib/libxmlrpc-epi.so.0 libvorbisenc2: /usr/lib/libvorbisenc.so.2 libvorbis0a: /usr/lib/libvorbis.so.0 libogg0: /usr/lib/libogg.so.0 libvorbisfile3: /usr/lib/libvorbisfile.so.3 libjpeg62: /usr/lib/libjpeg.so.62 libopenjpeg2: /usr/lib/libopenjpeg.so.2 libgstreamer0.10-0: /usr/lib/libgstreamer-0.10.so.0 libcurl3-cares: /usr/lib/libcurl-cares.so.4 libc-ares2: /usr/lib/libcares.so.2 libssl0.9.8: /usr/lib/libcrypto.so.0.9.8 libboost-signals1.34.1: /usr/lib/libboost_signals-gcc42-mt-1_34_1.so.1.34.1 libaprutil1: /usr/lib/libaprutil-1.so.0 libapr1: /usr/lib/libapr-1.so.0 zlib1g: /usr/lib/libz.so.1 libexpat1: /usr/lib/libexpat.so.1 libstdc++6: /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 libgcc1: /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 libc6: /lib/libc.so.6 libc6: /lib/libdl.so.2 libicu40: /usr/lib/libicui18n.so.40 libicu40: /usr/lib/libicuuc.so.40 libpcre3: /usr/lib/libpcre.so.3 nvidia-glx: /usr/lib/libGLcore.so.1 dpkg: /usr/lib/tls/libnvidia-tls.so.1 not found. libxext6: /usr/lib/libXext.so.6 libxcb1: /usr/lib/libxcb.so.1 libxul0d: /usr/lib/libxpcom.so.0d libmozjs0d: /usr/lib/libmozjs.so.0d libnspr4-0d: /usr/lib/libnspr4.so.0d libnspr4-0d: /usr/lib/libplc4.so.0d libnspr4-0d: /usr/lib/libplds4.so.0d libxul0d: /usr/lib/libxul.so.0d libasound2: /usr/lib/libasound.so.2 libdirectfb-1.2-0: /usr/lib/libdirectfb-1.2.so.0 libdirectfb-1.2-0: /usr/lib/libfusion-1.2.so.0 libdirectfb-1.2-0: /usr/lib/libdirect-1.2.so.0 libsvga1: /usr/lib/libvga.so.1 dpkg: /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 not found. libpango1.0-0: /usr/lib/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 libpango1.0-0: /usr/lib/libpango-1.0.so.0 libglib2.0-0: /usr/lib/libgio-2.0.so.0 libglib2.0-0: /usr/lib/libgmodule-2.0.so.0 libxrender1: /usr/lib/libXrender.so.1 libxinerama1: /usr/lib/libXinerama.so.1 libxi6: /usr/lib/libXi.so.6 libxrandr2: /usr/lib/libXrandr.so.2 libxcursor1: /usr/lib/libXcursor.so.1 libxcomposite1: /usr/lib/libXcomposite.so.1 libxdamage1: /usr/lib/libXdamage.so.1 libxfixes3: /usr/lib/libXfixes.so.3 libcairo2: /usr/lib/libcairo.so.2 libgtk2.0-0: /usr/lib/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 libatk1.0-0: /usr/lib/libatk-1.0.so.0 libpango1.0-0: /usr/lib/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 libxml2: /usr/lib/libxml2.so.2 libidn11: /usr/lib/libidn.so.11 libssh2-1: /usr/lib/libssh2.so.1 libldap-2.4-2: /usr/lib/libldap_r-2.4.so.2 libgssapi-krb5-2: /usr/lib/libgssapi_krb5.so.2 libssl0.9.8: /usr/lib/libssl.so.0.9.8 libdb4.7: /usr/lib/libdb-4.7.so libuuid1: /lib/libuuid.so.1 libc6: /lib/libcrypt.so.1 libicu40: /usr/lib/libicudata.so.40 libxau6: /usr/lib/libXau.so.6 libxdmcp6: /usr/lib/libXdmcp.so.6 libxft2: /usr/lib/libXft.so.2 libxt6: /usr/lib/libXt.so.6 libx86-1: /lib/libx86.so.1 libselinux1: /lib/libselinux.so.1 libpixman-1-0: /usr/lib/libpixman-1.so.0 libxcb-render-util0: /usr/lib/libxcb-render-util.so.0 libxcb-render0: /usr/lib/libxcb-render.so.0 libgcrypt11: /usr/lib/libgcrypt.so.11 libldap-2.4-2: /usr/lib/liblber-2.4.so.2 libc6: /lib/libresolv.so.2 libsasl2-2: /usr/lib/libsasl2.so.2 libgnutls26: /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.26 libkrb5-3: /usr/lib/libkrb5.so.3 libk5crypto3: /usr/lib/libk5crypto.so.3 libcomerr2: /lib/libcom_err.so.2 libkrb5support0: /usr/lib/libkrb5support.so.0 libkeyutils1: /lib/libkeyutils.so.1 libsm6: /usr/lib/libSM.so.6 libice6: /usr/lib/libICE.so.6 libgpg-error0: /usr/lib/libgpg-error.so.0 libtasn1-3: /usr/lib/libtasn1.so.3 -- Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Fri Oct 2 06:44:27 2009 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:44:27 +0200 Subject: [sldev] building snowglobe "standalone" on linux... In-Reply-To: <20091002131905.GA12750@alinoe.com> References: <200910021356.48813.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> <20091002131905.GA12750@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <200910021544.27303.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Freitag, 2. Oktober 2009 15:19:05 schrieb Carlo Wood: > On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 01:56:48PM +0200, Lance Corrimal wrote: > > ... is like don quixote's fight against the windmills. > > > > every time I do a new svn checkout a new dependency to some obscure, > > not-even- publicly-released library pops up, and after I fulfilled that > > dependency, compilation fails a few modules later with some errors where > > someone seemingly didnt check in ALL files he/she changed... > > I build standalone too. Currently the only unreleased dependency > appears to be jsoncpp (and, still, tut). for tut i already have packages in my obs repo... but jsoncpp kinda puzzles me. It's so green that it doesn't even have a "install" target in its sconstruct file... From poppy at lindenlab.com Fri Oct 2 12:46:15 2009 From: poppy at lindenlab.com (Paul Oppenheim (Poppy Linden)) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:46:15 -0700 Subject: [sldev] How do I print debug messages when compiling/running source code? In-Reply-To: <c4db5c50909160651x977366bgf03de694a59a79a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <SNT102-W561EC860EBA5A291B871EDFBE20@phx.gbl> <c4db5c50909160651x977366bgf03de694a59a79a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC65887.7060208@lindenlab.com> Robin Cornelius wrote: > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 1:46 PM, izze euler <izzee at hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> I want to add some debug messages to the source code, so that I can see what >> the code is doing and where it is going wrong. >> >> I am using >> >> std::cout << "Debug message here" << std::endl; > > you may find the ll macros easier to use in this case, because they > will go to the console window, the SecondLife.log etc > > use :- > > llinfos << "Some Message " << llendl; > > or > > llwarns << "Some more serious message " << llendl; > > or > > llerrs << "Some fatal i'm killing the client message" << llendl; actually, prefer the newer LL_INFOS("CodeModuleName"), etc. all-caps macros, they fit in the coding style, and are easier to control from logcontrol-dev.xml. Wiki link: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Logging_System_Overview /me is excessively behind on mail, sorry for late response + poppy From robla at lindenlab.com Fri Oct 2 16:58:08 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 16:58:08 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Finishing up on the translation feature - code review request Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910021658k1511ff1cm6105bb78542db33a@mail.gmail.com> HI folks, Three code reviews related to the translation feature here: * SNOW-244 - Log spam caused by automatic translation feature https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-244 * SNOW-262 - Automatic translation: Typo in html entity replacment ("'" --> "\\") https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-262 * SNOW-265 - "translate chat" preference should be reworked https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-265 I believe that will wrap up all of the known issues with automatic translation. Any takers on code reviews? Replying in the individual issues is probably best. Thanks Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091002/156d6b60/attachment.htm From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Oct 2 18:13:09 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 18:13:09 -0700 Subject: [sldev] SNOW-222: committed Message-ID: <78f69850910021813y7d471896if5d96e05f36a63ef@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Well, after a last update and conflict res, I committed this huge long patch (svn rev 2837). Couple of things I'd like to bring to the attention of the devs: - the audio panel in About Land... is not there: Aimee did a sprint attempt to fix the thing but it was still crashing for me on Windows by just invoking "About Land..." from the pie menu so I commented it out (see JIRA for detail) - getXML(): I tried to be consistent with the recently committed VWR-15310 (svn rev 2815) from Admiral Admiral but I didn't test the change so, please, check the new llmediactrl.cpp to see if I didn't screw things up too badly I'll be firing up the builds and will post when (and if) the binaries are ready. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091002/4e40267a/attachment.htm From merov at lindenlab.com Fri Oct 2 22:01:55 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:01:55 -0700 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! Message-ID: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> Hi there, I'm glad to announce that this build when fine and that, at long last, this SNOW-222 integration is DONE!... Well, we still have a couple of kinks to iron but, essentially, it's there. If you guys could kick the tires and put this to test, that'd be swell! For those who do not download the test builds when they show up, here are the links: Linux: http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe-i686-1.2.0.2837.tar.bz2 http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.Linux Darwin: http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe_1_2_0_2837_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.Darwin CYGWIN: http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe_1-2-0-2837_Setup.exe http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.CYGWIN Thanks in advance for your testing help. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091002/77a86eef/attachment.htm From garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com Sat Oct 3 05:41:39 2009 From: garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com (Garmin Kawaguichi) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 14:41:39 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> I tested the Windows release and just at the login page, this message (2 times): The following Media Plugin has failed: media_plugin_webkit Please re-install the plugin or contact the vendor if you continue to experience problems. I'd be a bad experience for a new user! GCI ----- Original Message ----- From: Philippe (Merov) Bossut To: Second Life Developer Mailing List Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:01 AM Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! Hi there, I'm glad to announce that this build when fine and that, at long last, this SNOW-222 integration is DONE!... Well, we still have a couple of kinks to iron but, essentially, it's there. If you guys could kick the tires and put this to test, that'd be swell! For those who do not download the test builds when they show up, here are the links: Linux: http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe-i686-1.2.0.2837.tar.bz2 http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.Linux Darwin: http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe_1_2_0_2837_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.Darwin CYGWIN: http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe_1-2-0-2837_Setup.exe http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.CYGWIN Thanks in advance for your testing help. Cheers, - Merov ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091003/1d29b47d/attachment.htm From ourasi35 at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 06:16:18 2009 From: ourasi35 at gmail.com (Ourasi) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 15:16:18 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> Message-ID: <f74e70fe0910030616y38cca44ah31e26145f6d93e40@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Same message for me: The following Media Plugin has failed: media_plugin_webkit Please re-install the plugin or contact the vendor if you continue to experience problems. 2009/10/3 Garmin Kawaguichi <garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com> > I tested the Windows release and just at the login page, this message (2 > times): > > The following Media Plugin has failed: > media_plugin_webkit > Please re-install the plugin or contact the vendor if you continue to > experience problems. > > > I'd be a bad experience for a new user! > > GCI > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Philippe (Merov) Bossut <merov at lindenlab.com> > *To:* Second Life Developer Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> > *Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:01 AM > *Subject:* [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! > > Hi there, > > I'm glad to announce that this build when fine and that, at long last, this > SNOW-222 integration is DONE!... Well, we still have a couple of kinks to > iron but, essentially, it's there. > > If you guys could kick the tires and put this to test, that'd be swell! For > those who do not download the test builds when they show up, here are the > links: > > Linux: > > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe-i686-1.2.0.2837.tar.bz2 > > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.Linux > > Darwin: > > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe_1_2_0_2837_SNOWGLOBETESTBUILD.dmg > > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.Darwin > > CYGWIN: > > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe_1-2-0-2837_Setup.exe > > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/good-build.CYGWIN > > Thanks in advance for your testing help. > > Cheers, > - Merov > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091003/82b3735c/attachment-0001.htm From holydoughnuts at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 06:30:03 2009 From: holydoughnuts at gmail.com (Tori C.) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 09:30:03 -0400 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> Message-ID: <1e0db80e0910030630o782fe058o49359c0082647d0e@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Garmin Kawaguichi <garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com> wrote: > I tested the Windows release and just at the login page, this message (2 > times): > > The following Media Plugin has failed: > media_plugin_webkit > Please re-install the plugin or contact the vendor if you continue to > experience problems. Seen on an old Mac too, in the log it is complaining of a timeout when this happens. It sometimes happens on the first use of All search too, but after another try or two it all kicks in. Another note, the Webkit plugin seems to be ignoring UI scaling, search draws outside its window if the scaling is set to less than 1.0. And one last bit, libllkdu.dylib went missing from this build. All that said, when the plugin does load, the browser (search, tutorial) seems to be working as well as the old stuff. From robertltux at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 07:59:23 2009 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 10:59:23 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Locking the Build Animations out possible?? Message-ID: <f5bb005e0910030759m2274eb91g7525717b6ef3908a@mail.gmail.com> Something that has come up in my travels is sometimes the animations used during Building get in the way of doing certain builds (anything you are trying to build scaled to the avatar). Is there a setting(s) to disable the animations? (i would be looking at the "move out of the way animation" and the arm pointing animation) -- Robert L Martin Email directly if you want to discuss off list or grab me inworld From stickman at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 08:04:31 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 08:04:31 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Locking the Build Animations out possible?? In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910030759m2274eb91g7525717b6ef3908a@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910030759m2274eb91g7525717b6ef3908a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910030804g727a3b31h53bb6b1d3bbbca90@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Robert Martin <robertltux at gmail.com> wrote: > Something that has come up in my travels is sometimes the animations > used during Building get in the way of doing certain builds (anything > you are trying to build scaled to the avatar). > Is there a setting(s) to disable the animations? (i would be looking > at the "move out of the way animation" and the arm pointing animation) I usually sit on something and shove myself away from my build. If I need the avatar to stand still, I use a posing stand that plays various priority 4 stances such as standing, t-pose, sitting, etc. I'm not sure what you'd be asking about other than those. They're pretty basic, so you should be able to ask just about anyone for a posing stand freebie, or find an extremely fancy one on the market. -Stickman From garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com Sat Oct 3 08:35:28 2009 From: garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com (Garmin Kawaguichi) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 17:35:28 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com><20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> <1e0db80e0910030630o782fe058o49359c0082647d0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4910379A1506416CA05225317E5D339D@Deimos> Same observation as Tori for the Search ; it needed 7 clicks on the "Close" button. GCI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tori C." <holydoughnuts at gmail.com> To: "Second Life Developer Mailing List" <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! > Seen on an old Mac too, in the log it is complaining of a timeout when > this happens. It sometimes happens on the first use of All search too, > but after another try or two it all kicks in. > From stickman at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 08:56:24 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 08:56:24 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Locking the Build Animations out possible?? In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910030810t636e299rf4868be205b54a7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910030759m2274eb91g7525717b6ef3908a@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910030804g727a3b31h53bb6b1d3bbbca90@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910030810t636e299rf4868be205b54a7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910030856i5214cf18v57a2f70b88003728@mail.gmail.com> Sit on a cube, align yourself where you want, make the cube tiny and transparent, and play a sitting animation. Or, if you can't find an adequate sitting animation, get a posing stand with various built-in poses, using the sitting pose, and move the posing stand where you want to be. The sitting pose, if it's a good posing stand, will animate all of the avatar's bones at priority 4, meaning you will not get your edit arm moving. Since you're sitting, you won't twist around towards what you're editing. -Stickman On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 8:10 AM, Robert Martin <robertltux at gmail.com> wrote: > An example would be a Chair being made to fit an avatar > If you try to do the build with the avatar you are using for the pose > you can't do the fitting because > > 1 the right arm is always pointing at what you are working on (so any > work with that arm is useless) > 2 half of your actions "break" any pose you have set > 3 the avatar always moves away from the build > > these problems im wondering if they are fixable short of using a bot > (and another avatar to do the posing) > > > > -- > Robert L Martin > From arabellasteadham at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 20:21:20 2009 From: arabellasteadham at gmail.com (Arabella Steadham) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 16:21:20 +1300 Subject: [sldev] Fwd: New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <8b83158c0910032020v6f58d5a9h95468f41de494775@mail.gmail.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> <1e0db80e0910030630o782fe058o49359c0082647d0e@mail.gmail.com> <4910379A1506416CA05225317E5D339D@Deimos> <8b83158c0910032020v6f58d5a9h95468f41de494775@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b83158c0910032021m5ae3f8faq90007b82407b75b3@mail.gmail.com> Same error for me at login. Also, the worst crash rate for me personally that I have had for two years. Crash sometimes as often as 10 second intervals, sometimes a 10 minute interval. By that I mean, crashing every 10 seconds, or sometimes every 10 minutes On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Garmin Kawaguichi < garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com> wrote: > Same observation as Tori for the Search ; it needed 7 clicks on the "Close" > button. > > GCI > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tori C." <holydoughnuts at gmail.com> > To: "Second Life Developer Mailing List" <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 3:30 PM > Subject: Re: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! > > > > Seen on an old Mac too, in the log it is complaining of a timeout when > > this happens. It sometimes happens on the first use of All search too, > > but after another try or two it all kicks in. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091004/f2374a24/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Sun Oct 4 07:29:34 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:29:34 +0200 Subject: [sldev] Missing IMG_DEFAULT (was: Fwd: New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins!) In-Reply-To: <8b83158c0910032021m5ae3f8faq90007b82407b75b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> <1e0db80e0910030630o782fe058o49359c0082647d0e@mail.gmail.com> <4910379A1506416CA05225317E5D339D@Deimos> <8b83158c0910032020v6f58d5a9h95468f41de494775@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910032021m5ae3f8faq90007b82407b75b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC8B14E.6020807@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Arabella Steadham schrieb: > [...] Also, the worst crash rate for me personally that I have had for > two years. [...] Apropos crash rate: Current snowglobe trunk doesn't seem to include Merov's workaround from http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/29625/tempHackImgDefault.patch , which reduces crashes significantly. Maybe that one's missing from the binary downloads, too? Boroondas From aimee.trescothick at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 08:49:36 2009 From: aimee.trescothick at gmail.com (Aimee Trescothick) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 16:49:36 +0100 Subject: [sldev] Missing IMG_DEFAULT (was: Fwd: New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins!) In-Reply-To: <4AC8B14E.6020807@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> <1e0db80e0910030630o782fe058o49359c0082647d0e@mail.gmail.com> <4910379A1506416CA05225317E5D339D@Deimos> <8b83158c0910032020v6f58d5a9h95468f41de494775@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910032021m5ae3f8faq90007b82407b75b3@mail.gmail.com> <4AC8B14E.6020807@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <E32BB90A-2FEA-49C1-8B9A-EE1F432156A1@gmail.com> Probably the easiest way to around that is just go to skins/default/ textures/ and copy ... b4ba225c-373f-446d-9f7e-6cb7b5cf9b3d.j2c to d2114404-dd59-4a4d-8e6c-49359e91bbf0.j2c ... to provide something as the missing texture file for now. Aimee. On 4 Oct 2009, at 15:29, Boroondas Gupte wrote: > Arabella Steadham schrieb: >> [...] Also, the worst crash rate for me personally that I have had >> for >> two years. [...] > Apropos crash rate: Current snowglobe trunk doesn't seem to include > Merov's workaround from > http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/29625/tempHackImgDefault.patch > , which reduces crashes significantly. Maybe that one's missing from > the > binary downloads, too? > > Boroondas > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 10:00:54 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:00:54 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091004190054.f6b2d583.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:01:55 -0700 "Philippe (Merov) Bossut" <merov at lindenlab.com> wrote: > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe-i686-1.2.0.2837.tar.bz2 i've a problem with audio stream: no audio!!! 2009-10-04T16:59:26Z WARNING: LLViewerMediaImpl::newSourceFromMediaType: Couldn't find plugin for media type audio/mpeg this is the opnly message i can get from debug console, anyone seen something like this? From merov at lindenlab.com Sun Oct 4 18:03:10 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:03:10 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Missing IMG_DEFAULT (was: Fwd: New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins!) In-Reply-To: <4AC8B14E.6020807@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> <1e0db80e0910030630o782fe058o49359c0082647d0e@mail.gmail.com> <4910379A1506416CA05225317E5D339D@Deimos> <8b83158c0910032020v6f58d5a9h95468f41de494775@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910032021m5ae3f8faq90007b82407b75b3@mail.gmail.com> <4AC8B14E.6020807@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <78f69850910041803r190a94bbs980abd62808acc12@mail.gmail.com> Hi, On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Boroondas Gupte <sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch>wrote: > Arabella Steadham schrieb: > > [...] Also, the worst crash rate for me personally that I have had for > > two years. [...] > Apropos crash rate: Current snowglobe trunk doesn't seem to include > Merov's workaround from > http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/29625/tempHackImgDefault.patch > , which reduces crashes significantly. Maybe that one's missing from the > binary downloads, too? > Does it reduce the crash rate significantly really? I'm glad to hear that for sure, but, if you have any data supporting that claim, would you mind sharing them? I'd love it to be real but that sounds too good to be true... Otherwise, you're right: the committed patch didn't not include that hack because, well, that's a hack really. What I did though was to create a new image in the skins/default/textures in the internal branch but that branch was not built yet when I created the binary and so I didn't have the exported artwork to build Snowglobe. I'll get that in in the next build. What I did do also was to verify that we have all the media_*.png present and I suppressed in the textures.xml (which is used to preload UI textures) a reference to a file that didn't exist anymore (which may explain why Aimee saw the problem though she had all the media_*.png files in her textures folder). Of course, that doesn't prevent IMG_DEFAULT to be fetched sometimes for textures that are truly missing from a region for instance. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091004/b703d295/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Mon Oct 5 03:26:26 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:26:26 +0200 Subject: [sldev] Missing IMG_DEFAULT In-Reply-To: <78f69850910041803r190a94bbs980abd62808acc12@mail.gmail.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20481BCE6FB140D0B71F0A26E5646E7A@Deimos> <1e0db80e0910030630o782fe058o49359c0082647d0e@mail.gmail.com> <4910379A1506416CA05225317E5D339D@Deimos> <8b83158c0910032020v6f58d5a9h95468f41de494775@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910032021m5ae3f8faq90007b82407b75b3@mail.gmail.com> <4AC8B14E.6020807@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <78f69850910041803r190a94bbs980abd62808acc12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC9C9D2.7000904@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Hi Philippe Philippe (Merov) Bossut schrieb: > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Boroondas Gupte > <sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch <mailto:sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch>> wrote: > > Arabella Steadham schrieb: > > [...] Also, the worst crash rate for me personally that I have > had for > > two years. [...] > Apropos crash rate: Current snowglobe trunk doesn't seem to include > Merov's workaround from > http://jira.secondlife.com/secure/attachment/29625/tempHackImgDefault.patch > , which reduces crashes significantly. Maybe that one's missing > from the > binary downloads, too? > > > Does it reduce the crash rate significantly really? Well, that was just my impression, but my experience with post-llMediaPlugin-merge viewers (with and without the hack patch) is still rather limited (I recently don't have a lot of spare time to spend inworld) and thus probably far from representative. > I'm glad to hear that for sure, but, if you have any data supporting > that claim, would you mind sharing them? I'd love it to be real but > that sounds too good to be true... Maybe it is. I just know that with a viewer I've built after the merge I crashed within the first 10 minutes after logging in (which was like ... twice or trice. And it was more like Snowgobe froze to death than a real crash). Seeing that the viewer was complaining a lot about the missing d2114404-dd59-4a4d-8e6c-49359e91bbf0 image, I decided to try applying the patch after which I didn't seem to have these problems anymore. Obviously, that's significantly better to me, but don't take my use of the word "significant" here in the meaning it has in statistical testing ;-) Oh, and by "reduces" I really meant "seems to reduce". I've tried to cut down relativizations in my written language, because I tend to overuse them (not a native speaker of English), but looks like I should have kept it here to avoid wrong impressions. Sorry for the confusion. cheers Boroondas, remembering http://xkcd.com/552/, once again From qieniangao at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 05:13:07 2009 From: qieniangao at gmail.com (Qie Niangao) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 08:13:07 -0400 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! Message-ID: <9788aeb10910050513u4c627720ic808e24efd4e662@mail.gmail.com> Tayra Dagostino <tayra.dagostino at gmail.com> wrote: | i've a problem with audio stream: no audio!!! | | 2009-10-04T16:59:26Z WARNING: | LLViewerMediaImpl::newSourceFromMediaType: Couldn't find plugin for | media type audio/mpeg | | this is the opnly message i can get from debug console, anyone seen | something like this? Media type audio/* has been broken obscurely for ages, so this may just be another manifestation of that. See http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=335583. On the other hand, I know nothing about the plugin implementation, so perhaps that changes how it's broken. From TammyNowotny at mac.com Mon Oct 5 07:25:09 2009 From: TammyNowotny at mac.com (Tammy Nowotny) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:25:09 -0400 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <9788aeb10910050513u4c627720ic808e24efd4e662@mail.gmail.com> References: <9788aeb10910050513u4c627720ic808e24efd4e662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACA01C5.9010607@mac.com> The latest MacOS version of Snowglobe 1.2, i.e., 1.2.0.2837 (dated October 2nd) has no streaming audio. You get an error message while starting up the program and the streaming audio widgets is greyed out? although the prefs card shows the audio checkbox normally. (And oh yeah!, you also can't hear the audio streams.) The video widget is not greyed out. --Tammy Nowotny Qie Niangao wrote: > Tayra Dagostino <tayra.dagostino at gmail.com> wrote: > > | i've a problem with audio stream: no audio!!! > | > | 2009-10-04T16:59:26Z WARNING: > | LLViewerMediaImpl::newSourceFromMediaType: Couldn't find plugin for > | media type audio/mpeg > | > | this is the opnly message i can get from debug console, anyone seen > | something like this? > > Media type audio/* has been broken obscurely for ages, so this may > just be another manifestation of that. See > http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=335583. On the other > hand, I know nothing about the plugin implementation, so perhaps that > changes how it's broken. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 07:35:03 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:35:03 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <4ACA01C5.9010607@mac.com> References: <9788aeb10910050513u4c627720ic808e24efd4e662@mail.gmail.com> <4ACA01C5.9010607@mac.com> Message-ID: <B95E1869-1818-40CD-89E9-784427D28437@gmail.com> Same for me, audio grey (after first time i press PLAY) and no stream -- Sent by iPhone Il giorno 05/ott/2009, alle ore 16.25, Tammy Nowotny <TammyNowotny at mac.com > ha scritto: > The latest MacOS version of Snowglobe 1.2, i.e., 1.2.0.2837 (dated > October 2nd) has no streaming audio. You get an error message while > starting up the program and the streaming audio widgets is greyed ou > t? > although the prefs card shows the audio checkbox normally. (And oh > yeah!, you also can't hear the audio streams.) The video widget is not > greyed out. > > --Tammy Nowotny > > Qie Niangao wrote: >> Tayra Dagostino <tayra.dagostino at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> | i've a problem with audio stream: no audio!!! >> | >> | 2009-10-04T16:59:26Z WARNING: >> | LLViewerMediaImpl::newSourceFromMediaType: Couldn't find plugin for >> | media type audio/mpeg >> | >> | this is the opnly message i can get from debug console, anyone seen >> | something like this? >> >> Media type audio/* has been broken obscurely for ages, so this may >> just be another manifestation of that. See >> http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=335583. On the other >> hand, I know nothing about the plugin implementation, so perhaps that >> changes how it's broken. >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges From thickbrick.sleaford at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 07:48:21 2009 From: thickbrick.sleaford at gmail.com (Thickbrick Sleaford) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:48:21 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <20091004190054.f6b2d583.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20091004190054.f6b2d583.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200910051648.21582.thickbrick.sleaford@gmail.com> On Sunday 04 October 2009 19:00:54 Tayra Dagostino wrote: > i've a problem with audio stream: no audio!!! > > 2009-10-04T16:59:26Z WARNING: > LLViewerMediaImpl::newSourceFromMediaType: Couldn't find plugin for > media type audio/mpeg > > > this is the opnly message i can get from debug console, anyone seen > something like this? I'm seeing this too, on Linux. For some reason there's no <impl> defined for all the audio types in skins/default/xui/en-us/mime_types.xml Adding this for the audio/mpeg mimetype (around line 248) lets me play mp3 streams in parcel radio: <impl> media_plugin_quicktime </impl> I thought there would be a default impl/plugin for each mime family (audio/*, video/*, etc.), but there doesn't seem to be one. Maybe LLMIMETypes::implType() should look for foo/* if it doesn't find an implementation for foo/bar ? Also there's the problem of the music Play button being disabled unless a media stream is already playing. -- Thickbrick From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 08:05:02 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:05:02 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <200910051648.21582.thickbrick.sleaford@gmail.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20091004190054.f6b2d583.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> <200910051648.21582.thickbrick.sleaford@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091005170502.23ecf383.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:48:21 +0200 Thickbrick Sleaford <thickbrick.sleaford at gmail.com> wrote: > <impl> > media_plugin_quicktime > </impl> no way, it don't work (and my viewer is setup on English interface) From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 08:16:03 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:16:03 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <20091005170502.23ecf383.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <20091004190054.f6b2d583.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> <200910051648.21582.thickbrick.sleaford@gmail.com> <20091005170502.23ecf383.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091005171603.be38f8da.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:05:02 +0200 Tayra Dagostino <tayra.dagostino at gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:48:21 +0200 > Thickbrick Sleaford <thickbrick.sleaford at gmail.com> wrote: > > > <impl> > > media_plugin_quicktime > > </impl> > > no way, it don't work (and my viewer is setup on English interface) yapyap i press "play" in multimedia deck and audio buttons became active, now work all...... From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 09:31:31 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:31:31 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <4ACA01C5.9010607@mac.com> References: <9788aeb10910050513u4c627720ic808e24efd4e662@mail.gmail.com> <4ACA01C5.9010607@mac.com> Message-ID: <20091005183131.b8995781.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:25:09 -0400 Tammy Nowotny <TammyNowotny at mac.com> wrote: > The latest MacOS version of Snowglobe 1.2, i.e., 1.2.0.2837 (dated > October 2nd) has no streaming audio. You get an error message while > starting up the program and the streaming audio widgets is greyed out > ? although the prefs card shows the audio checkbox normally. (And oh > yeah!, you also can't hear the audio streams.) The video widget is > not greyed out. take a look other post: > For some reason there's no <impl> > defined for all the audio types in > skins/default/xui/en-us/mime_types.xml > > Adding this for the audio/mpeg mimetype (around line 248) lets me > play mp3 streams in parcel radio: > <impl> > media_plugin_quicktime > </impl> > play multimedia stream and audio button became active this is a workaround, not a solution..... From TammyNowotny at mac.com Mon Oct 5 12:36:22 2009 From: TammyNowotny at mac.com (Tammy Nowotny) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:36:22 -0400 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <20091005183131.b8995781.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> References: <9788aeb10910050513u4c627720ic808e24efd4e662@mail.gmail.com> <4ACA01C5.9010607@mac.com> <20091005183131.b8995781.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACA4AB6.705@mac.com> I have just been downloading the compiled versions off the wiki page. It suppose it might be fun to actually roll my own compiled version sometime :-) Tayra Dagostino wrote: >> For some reason there's no <impl> >> defined for all the audio types in >> skins/default/xui/en-us/mime_types.xml >> >> Adding this for the audio/mpeg mimetype (around line 248) lets me >> play mp3 streams in parcel radio: >> <impl> >> media_plugin_quicktime >> </impl> >> >> > > play multimedia stream and audio button became active > > this is a workaround, not a solution..... > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091005/a3796271/attachment.htm From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Mon Oct 5 13:25:02 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:25:02 -0400 Subject: [sldev] SNOW-222: committed In-Reply-To: <78f69850910021813y7d471896if5d96e05f36a63ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <78f69850910021813y7d471896if5d96e05f36a63ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACA561E.2090102@fishkill.ibm.com> I haven't tried running it yet, but the code in llmediactrl.cpp looks OK. Mike Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > - getXML(): I tried to be consistent with the recently committed > VWR-15310 (svn rev 2815) from Admiral Admiral but I didn't test the > change so, please, check the new llmediactrl.cpp to see if I didn't > screw things up too badly From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Mon Oct 5 14:38:02 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:38:02 -0400 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACA673A.6020706@fishkill.ibm.com> I can't even start the program. I get a Windows popup saying "C:\Program Files\Snowglobe\SnowglobeTestBuild.exe The application has failed to start because the application configuration is incorrect. Reinstalling the application may fix this problem." Reinstalling didn't fix the problem. :-( If I look at the System Events, there is an event from SideBySide (whatever that is) saying "Generate Activation Context failed for C:\Program Files\Snowglobe\SnowglobeTestBuild.exe. Reference error message: The operation completed successfully." http://support.microsoft.com/kb/948854 says "When you run a Visual C++ executable file or DLL that contains embedded debug information, the application does not start. Additionally, you receive the following error message:..." I'm on Windows XP. Mike Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > CYGWIN: > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2837/Snowglobe_1-2-0-2837_Setup.exe From merov at lindenlab.com Mon Oct 5 17:04:29 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:04:29 -0700 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <4ACA673A.6020706@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <78f69850910022201u7d8b9966o831080addafb2b94@mail.gmail.com> <4ACA673A.6020706@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <78f69850910051704v5285214fr7753867b0b0640f2@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Thanks for all the testing. It helps a lot. Obviously, we have a bunch of issues here: - IMG_DEFAULT error: as explained in another thread, the final artwork fix I did internally was not in that build though I certainly didn't expect its absence to be so dramatic for some (after all, it has been missing for ages with little ill effects and I did fix the missing png and wrong textures.xml issue). I'll get that fixes in the next build. - audio/* mime-types: I need to check what we have by default and if we could extend the coverage of what we support. - media and audio UI: yeap, I went IW and verified that there are cases where it doesn't work (thanks Yann!). Not on every media though. I started to look at some differences in the UI code and, now that I've a reproable case, I'm looking at a fix. We also have to turn the new land audio panel in and look if we get the crash rate back into reasonable land once we get the here above listed issues fixed. When testing this, please log bugs against Snowglobe (SNOW-<something>), not the general viewer so that triage is easier for us. Also, since it involves media and audio of which there are a great variety, please give SLURL where the media/audio can be experienced. That'll help us trying to fix the problems a lot. Thanks for your help. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091005/170ceedb/attachment.htm From izzee at hotmail.co.uk Tue Oct 6 02:38:59 2009 From: izzee at hotmail.co.uk (izze euler) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:38:59 +0000 Subject: [sldev] [help] Problems running compiled viewer Message-ID: <SNT102-W4064AAB4241094326D1229FBCE0@phx.gbl> Hi, I have compiled the latest SL source code (1.23.4). I can run the compiled viewer using Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition, however, I cannot run the .exe as a standalone. I have created a new folder and added the .exe, along with the contents of the /indra/build-vc80/newview/release folder, and remaining dll and text files in /indra/newview. I have also copied the app_settings, character, fonts and skins folders. The error message I receive when I try to run in XP is: This application has failed to start because the application configuration is incorrect. Reinstalling the application may fix this problem. I get the following message on Vista: The application has failed to start because its side-by-side configuration is incorrect. Has anyone come across the same problem? Am I missing any files to run as standalone? Kind Regards, Izze _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to add other email accounts to Hotmail in 3 easy steps. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091006/5fa74f51/attachment.htm From izzee at hotmail.co.uk Tue Oct 6 07:50:44 2009 From: izzee at hotmail.co.uk (izze euler) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:50:44 +0000 Subject: [sldev] Where can I find the advanced menu in source code? Message-ID: <SNT102-W491B7B0FE957554CD39F6FFBCE0@phx.gbl> Hi, I am trying to remove some options from the Advanced Menu (Ctrl+Alt+D). Does anyone know where I can find the code for show/hide this menu in the source code, and where the menu options are? Thanks Kind Regards, Izze _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to add other email accounts to Hotmail in 3 easy steps. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091006/86c04611/attachment.htm From zabb65 at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 07:54:56 2009 From: zabb65 at gmail.com (Zabb65) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:54:56 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Where can I find the advanced menu in source code? In-Reply-To: <SNT102-W491B7B0FE957554CD39F6FFBCE0@phx.gbl> References: <SNT102-W491B7B0FE957554CD39F6FFBCE0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <7cbf3d170910060754p7d158f76kdd0c7f155324904f@mail.gmail.com> The menu is located in its entirety inside llviewermenu.cpp there are a few functions that set it up, one for the advanced menu, known as client, and on for the admin menu, known as server. searching for any of the menu items should produce the code that sets up the menu. ~Zwagoth On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:50, izze euler <izzee at hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > Hi, > > I am trying to remove some options from the Advanced Menu (Ctrl+Alt+D). > Does anyone know where I can find the code for show/hide this menu in the > source code, and where the menu options are? > > Thanks > > Kind Regards, > Izze > > ------------------------------ > New! Receive and respond to mail from other email accounts from within > Hotmail Find out how. <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091006/6c6a8e4e/attachment.htm From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Tue Oct 6 08:12:50 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:12:50 -0400 Subject: [sldev] [help] Problems running compiled viewer In-Reply-To: <SNT102-W4064AAB4241094326D1229FBCE0@phx.gbl> References: <SNT102-W4064AAB4241094326D1229FBCE0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4ACB5E72.7030800@fishkill.ibm.com> I'm getting that same message on Merov's latest Snowglobe build. See the note I posted to the mailing list yesterday. I don't know what is causing it, but it may be because it's a Debug build looking for Debug libraries or runtime, which are not installed on my system. Mike izze euler wrote: > Hi, > > I have compiled the latest SL source code (1.23.4). I can run the > compiled viewer using Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition, > however, I cannot run the .exe as a standalone. > > I have created a new folder and added the .exe, along with the contents > of the /indra/build-vc80/newview/release folder, and remaining dll and > text files in /indra/newview. I have also copied the app_settings, > character, fonts and skins folders. > > The error message I receive when I try to run in XP is: > > This application has failed to start because the application > configuration is incorrect. Reinstalling the application may fix this > problem. > > I get the following message on Vista: > > The application has failed to start because its side-by-side > configuration is incorrect. > > > Has anyone come across the same problem? Am I missing any files to run > as standalone? > > Kind Regards, > Izze > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > New! Receive and respond to mail from other email accounts from within > Hotmail Find out how. <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From zabb65 at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 08:20:06 2009 From: zabb65 at gmail.com (Zabb65) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 11:20:06 -0400 Subject: [sldev] [help] Problems running compiled viewer In-Reply-To: <4ACB5E72.7030800@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <SNT102-W4064AAB4241094326D1229FBCE0@phx.gbl> <4ACB5E72.7030800@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <7cbf3d170910060820w3f6877b1wad6193d05c9a0ef8@mail.gmail.com> Last time I received this error it was because I did not have the Visual C++ Runtimes installed. It works to download the 2005, the 2005 sp1, and the 2005 sp1 with security fix, and the 2008 runtimes and just install them all. http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&displaylang=en http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=32BC1BEE-A3F9-4C13-9C99-220B62A191EE&displaylang=en http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=200B2FD9-AE1A-4A14-984D-389C36F85647&displaylang=en http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=A5C84275-3B97-4AB7-A40D-3802B2AF5FC2&displaylang=en Let me know if this fixes the problem or not. On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:12, Mike Monkowski <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com>wrote: > I'm getting that same message on Merov's latest Snowglobe build. See > the note I posted to the mailing list yesterday. I don't know what is > causing it, but it may be because it's a Debug build looking for Debug > libraries or runtime, which are not installed on my system. > > Mike > > izze euler wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have compiled the latest SL source code (1.23.4). I can run the > > compiled viewer using Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition, > > however, I cannot run the .exe as a standalone. > > > > I have created a new folder and added the .exe, along with the contents > > of the /indra/build-vc80/newview/release folder, and remaining dll and > > text files in /indra/newview. I have also copied the app_settings, > > character, fonts and skins folders. > > > > The error message I receive when I try to run in XP is: > > > > This application has failed to start because the application > > configuration is incorrect. Reinstalling the application may fix this > > problem. > > > > I get the following message on Vista: > > > > The application has failed to start because its side-by-side > > configuration is incorrect. > > > > > > Has anyone come across the same problem? Am I missing any files to run > > as standalone? > > > > Kind Regards, > > Izze > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > New! Receive and respond to mail from other email accounts from within > > Hotmail Find out how. <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091006/5daf1f67/attachment.htm From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Tue Oct 6 08:21:26 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:21:26 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Where can I find the advanced menu in source code? In-Reply-To: <SNT102-W491B7B0FE957554CD39F6FFBCE0@phx.gbl> References: <SNT102-W491B7B0FE957554CD39F6FFBCE0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4ACB6076.5010100@fishkill.ibm.com> Hide/show is in newview/llviewermenu.cpp line 4572 in trunk show_debug_menus() and right after that toggle_debug_menus(void*). The build is line 708 init_client_menu(LLMenuGL* menu) Mike izze euler wrote: > Hi, > > I am trying to remove some options from the Advanced Menu (Ctrl+Alt+D). > Does anyone know where I can find the code for show/hide this menu in > the source code, and where the menu options are? > > Thanks > > Kind Regards, > Izze > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > New! Receive and respond to mail from other email accounts from within > Hotmail Find out how. <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Tue Oct 6 08:26:09 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:26:09 -0400 Subject: [sldev] [help] Problems running compiled viewer In-Reply-To: <7cbf3d170910060820w3f6877b1wad6193d05c9a0ef8@mail.gmail.com> References: <SNT102-W4064AAB4241094326D1229FBCE0@phx.gbl> <4ACB5E72.7030800@fishkill.ibm.com> <7cbf3d170910060820w3f6877b1wad6193d05c9a0ef8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACB6191.7050404@fishkill.ibm.com> I'm not trying to compile the viewer. I'm just trying to install and run it. And izze can run under the debugger, so he must have the right runtimes, but isn't getting to them properly when he runs outside the debugger. Mike Zabb65 wrote: > Last time I received this error it was because I did not have the Visual > C++ Runtimes installed. It works to download the 2005, the 2005 sp1, and > the 2005 sp1 with security fix, and the 2008 runtimes and just install > them all. > > http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&displaylang=en > <http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&displaylang=en> > http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=32BC1BEE-A3F9-4C13-9C99-220B62A191EE&displaylang=en > <http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=32BC1BEE-A3F9-4C13-9C99-220B62A191EE&displaylang=en> > http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=200B2FD9-AE1A-4A14-984D-389C36F85647&displaylang=en > <http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=200B2FD9-AE1A-4A14-984D-389C36F85647&displaylang=en> > http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=A5C84275-3B97-4AB7-A40D-3802B2AF5FC2&displaylang=en > <http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=A5C84275-3B97-4AB7-A40D-3802B2AF5FC2&displaylang=en> > > Let me know if this fixes the problem or not. > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:12, Mike Monkowski <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com > <mailto:monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com>> wrote: > > I'm getting that same message on Merov's latest Snowglobe build. See > the note I posted to the mailing list yesterday. I don't know what is > causing it, but it may be because it's a Debug build looking for Debug > libraries or runtime, which are not installed on my system. > > Mike > From izzee at hotmail.co.uk Tue Oct 6 08:51:24 2009 From: izzee at hotmail.co.uk (izze euler) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:51:24 +0000 Subject: [sldev] [help] Problems running compiled viewer In-Reply-To: <4ACB6191.7050404@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <SNT102-W4064AAB4241094326D1229FBCE0@phx.gbl> <4ACB5E72.7030800@fishkill.ibm.com> <7cbf3d170910060820w3f6877b1wad6193d05c9a0ef8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT102-W217E8BC2434EC121091A91FBCE0@phx.gbl> Yes, I don't have a problem when compiling, just when I run it. It will run from Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition, but not as a standalone app. I have compiled older versions of the code before and copied the files I need to run it as an application to another computer. I never had problems in the past, but I cannot run the SL source code version 1.23.4. Izze > Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 11:26:09 -0400 > From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com > To: zabb65 at gmail.com > CC: izzee at hotmail.co.uk; sldev at lists.secondlife.com > Subject: Re: [sldev] [help] Problems running compiled viewer > > I'm not trying to compile the viewer. I'm just trying to install and > run it. And izze can run under the debugger, so he must have the right > runtimes, but isn't getting to them properly when he runs outside the > debugger. > > Mike > > Zabb65 wrote: > > Last time I received this error it was because I did not have the Visual > > C++ Runtimes installed. It works to download the 2005, the 2005 sp1, and > > the 2005 sp1 with security fix, and the 2008 runtimes and just install > > them all. > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&displaylang=en > > <http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&displaylang=en> > > http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=32BC1BEE-A3F9-4C13-9C99-220B62A191EE&displaylang=en > > <http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=32BC1BEE-A3F9-4C13-9C99-220B62A191EE&displaylang=en> > > http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=200B2FD9-AE1A-4A14-984D-389C36F85647&displaylang=en > > <http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=200B2FD9-AE1A-4A14-984D-389C36F85647&displaylang=en> > > http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=A5C84275-3B97-4AB7-A40D-3802B2AF5FC2&displaylang=en > > <http://www.microsoft.com/DOWNLOADS/details.aspx?familyid=A5C84275-3B97-4AB7-A40D-3802B2AF5FC2&displaylang=en> > > > > Let me know if this fixes the problem or not. > > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:12, Mike Monkowski <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com > > <mailto:monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com>> wrote: > > > > I'm getting that same message on Merov's latest Snowglobe build. See > > the note I posted to the mailing list yesterday. I don't know what is > > causing it, but it may be because it's a Debug build looking for Debug > > libraries or runtime, which are not installed on my system. > > > > Mike > > _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to add other email accounts to Hotmail in 3 easy steps. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091006/040d7c90/attachment.htm From robertltux at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 09:38:25 2009 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:38:25 -0400 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards Message-ID: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> Bringing a discussion from a third party viewer to the dev list to see whats possible "this would cause a massive drop in inventories due to not needing multiple copies of items a worst/best case scenario for this would be an heavy weight Anthro Avatar with attachments on 80% of the points and clothes assembled into a dozen outfits (with minor differences). lets say that there are 17 points with "stuff" plus a shirt and undershirt (19 base items) if there are 12 outfits with this base then you have 228 inventory items for an extra load of 209 items. This could add up very quickly (quick everybody look in your inventory and count your outfit dupes) suggested format for the card **********Outfit Selection Card DN="Display Name" MODE=|Replace,Add to outfit|******* 1 "%Item Display name%" %UUID for item% %item type% 2 "%Item Display name%" %UUID for item% %item type% .... N STOP END OF CARD and this would also work for folks selling multiple outfits in a single box same outfit in blue read and green say " Im not sure what all would need to be changed server and or client side but does this look like a possible good idea to anybody?? No jira yet can create one if this idea is "sane" -- Robert L Martin From missannotoole at yahoo.com Tue Oct 6 12:37:46 2009 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <888407.19198.qm@web59102.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Yea sure. Just put in the UUIDs for stuff you don't own. Haven't we just had a go around of "unconfirmed by LL" supposed asset system hacking of that nature? Why even have L$ at all? I.e.; needs work. The coding must be server side to confirm you own the UUIDs involved. In fact most coding apparently needs to be server side IMHO at this point. May as well switch to citrix and just send screen image deltas. ________________________________ From: Robert Martin <robertltux at gmail.com> To: SLDev Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 12:38:25 PM Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards Bringing a discussion from a third party viewer to the dev list to see whats possible "this would cause a massive drop in inventories due to not needing multiple copies of items a worst/best case scenario for this would be an heavy weight Anthro Avatar with attachments on 80% of the points and clothes assembled into a dozen outfits (with minor differences). lets say that there are 17 points with "stuff" plus a shirt and undershirt (19 base items) if there are 12 outfits with this base then you have 228 inventory items for an extra load of 209 items. This could add up very quickly (quick everybody look in your inventory and count your outfit dupes) suggested format for the card **********Outfit Selection Card DN="Display Name" MODE=|Replace,Add to outfit|******* 1 "%Item Display name%" %UUID for item% %item type% 2 "%Item Display name%" %UUID for item% %item type% .... N STOP END OF CARD and this would also work for folks selling multiple outfits in a single box same outfit in blue read and green say " Im not sure what all would need to be changed server and or client side but does this look like a possible good idea to anybody?? No jira yet can create one if this idea is "sane" -- Robert L Martin _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091006/8792ffdf/attachment.htm From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 16:21:48 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 01:21:48 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New Snowglobe Test Build with media plug ins! In-Reply-To: <4ACA4AB6.705@mac.com> References: <9788aeb10910050513u4c627720ic808e24efd4e662@mail.gmail.com> <4ACA01C5.9010607@mac.com> <20091005183131.b8995781.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> <4ACA4AB6.705@mac.com> Message-ID: <20091007012148.96b0c4d5.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:36:22 -0400 Tammy Nowotny <TammyNowotny at mac.com> wrote: > I have just been downloading the compiled versions off the wiki > page. It suppose it might be fun to actually roll my own compiled > version sometime :-) 2850 still have the grey button on linux <impl> tag is still missing if added audio work only if multimedia stream is turned on, before button are grey and unusable, i thinki something in XUI don't work, why i talked to somebody on mac and with 2850 audio play/pause/stop work.... From stickman at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 22:44:12 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 22:44:12 -0700 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910062244r3c5a4aabnc62f79aa9bf8d5dd@mail.gmail.com> > suggested format for the card > **********Outfit Selection Card DN="Display Name" MODE=|Replace,Add to > outfit|******* > > 1 "%Item Display name%" %UUID for item% %item type% > 2 "%Item Display name%" %UUID for item% %item type% > .... > N STOP END OF CARD > > and this would also work for folks selling multiple outfits in a > single box same outfit in blue read and green say " > Im not sure what all would need to be changed server and or client > side but does this look like a possible good idea to anybody?? > No jira yet can create one if this idea is "sane" Sure, I like the idea. The concept is "grouping" multiple attachments into a single object so we don't need to deal with all the confusion and inventory bloat. Unfortunately, I don't see it working. For the following reasons. 1) People live for avatar customization. Using a head from this avatar, the legs from this avatar, maybe a pair of prim pants from something else. Having everything divided up allows that to be done very easily. It also makes it very easy to modify these individual parts, if they want to change a color, add earrings, etc. 2) The UUID changes every time an attachment is attached. There's a current race condition you can easily duplicate. Wear an item, change it, then detach and reattach it really quickly. Your change will be lost as it wasn't saved back to the asset server before it was worn again. What happens after that I haven't tested, but I've experienced fairly random results about which version finally ends up in my inventory. While this "card" would be a nice organizational factor, it adds one more place where UUIDs need to be updated, introducing one more race condition that would need to be accounted for. 3) We already have organizational methods for avatars outfits You can right click on a folder and select one of three options: replace, add, and remove. You can even mix and match things this way. SL natively supports this by "saving outfit" when in the appearance editor. So -- the concept of "hiding" lesser used inventory items by grouping them into a single object may be nice, but it's just a front-end change. According to the backend, you're actually adding at least one new item (the card) while all of the other items still need to be accounted for. Besides, we've basically got the same thing, except with folders. I don't think the advantage of having less inventory items makes up for the lack of freedom the current system has. If I've got things wrong in my head about what you're talking about, please feel free to clarify for me. New ideas are great and promote growth -- don't be scared to bring them up. Who knows what this idea may evolve into when it pairs up with another idea someone else has down the road. -Stickman From robertltux at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 04:35:09 2009 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 07:35:09 -0400 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <b277743b0910062244r3c5a4aabnc62f79aa9bf8d5dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910062244r3c5a4aabnc62f79aa9bf8d5dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <f5bb005e0910070435k1c1a8eev94161145a466c030@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:44 AM, Stickman <stickman at gmail.com> wrote: > 2) The UUID changes every time an attachment is attached. > This would be a problem to be worked around (it also sounds like a bit of a bug/misfeature). > While this "card" would be a nice organizational factor, it adds one > more place where UUIDs need to be updated, introducing one more race > condition that would need to be accounted for. > > 3) We already have organizational methods for avatars outfits > > You can right click on a folder and select one of three options: > replace, add, and remove. You can even mix and match things this way. > SL natively supports this by "saving outfit" when in the appearance > editor. > > The big problem is of course if you have items in 12 different outfits then you need to have 12 different copies of this item with a card based system you would need just 1 Im not talking about any "hiding" of items im talking about removing the need for endless copies. Also you have a problem of folks selling multiple outfits in a single folder/object and you land up having to A unpack multiple boxes B fish the parts out of a crammed folder with the outfit card you could sell the folder/object and then use a series of cards to separate the different outfits. I was thinking of running this as a notecard to minimize the need to add overhead to the system and as far as the loss of freedom is concerned A the current system would be retained B with it being notecard based you could always just edit the notecard if perms on the card permitted it. -- Robert L Martin From missannotoole at yahoo.com Wed Oct 7 04:54:48 2009 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 04:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910070435k1c1a8eev94161145a466c030@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910062244r3c5a4aabnc62f79aa9bf8d5dd@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910070435k1c1a8eev94161145a466c030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <686651.64247.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> You know they are not actual copies of the asset right? What you see in inventory are just pointers to the asset. So all the extra "copies" in your inventory amount to are a few additional rows assigned to your inventory records in your inventory cluster. So in effect making the extra copies to put in folders as outfits sort of accomplishes your recommendation anyway right? ________________________________ From: Robert Martin <robertltux at gmail.com> To: SLDev Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 7:35:09 AM Subject: Re: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 1:44 AM, Stickman <stickman at gmail.com> wrote: > 2) The UUID changes every time an attachment is attached. > This would be a problem to be worked around (it also sounds like a bit of a bug/misfeature). > While this "card" would be a nice organizational factor, it adds one > more place where UUIDs need to be updated, introducing one more race > condition that would need to be accounted for. > > 3) We already have organizational methods for avatars outfits > > You can right click on a folder and select one of three options: > replace, add, and remove. You can even mix and match things this way. > SL natively supports this by "saving outfit" when in the appearance > editor. > > The big problem is of course if you have items in 12 different outfits then you need to have 12 different copies of this item with a card based system you would need just 1 Im not talking about any "hiding" of items im talking about removing the need for endless copies. Also you have a problem of folks selling multiple outfits in a single folder/object and you land up having to A unpack multiple boxes B fish the parts out of a crammed folder with the outfit card you could sell the folder/object and then use a series of cards to separate the different outfits. I was thinking of running this as a notecard to minimize the need to add overhead to the system and as far as the loss of freedom is concerned A the current system would be retained B with it being notecard based you could always just edit the notecard if perms on the card permitted it. -- Robert L Martin _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091007/1ec1654f/attachment.htm From robertltux at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 05:15:30 2009 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:15:30 -0400 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <686651.64247.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910062244r3c5a4aabnc62f79aa9bf8d5dd@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910070435k1c1a8eev94161145a466c030@mail.gmail.com> <686651.64247.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:54 AM, Ann Otoole <missannotoole at yahoo.com> wrote: > You know they are not actual copies of the asset right? > What you see in inventory are just pointers to the asset. > So all the extra "copies" in your inventory amount to are a few additional > rows assigned to your inventory records in your inventory cluster. > So in effect making the extra copies to put in folders as outfits sort of > accomplishes your recommendation anyway right? > ________________________________ okay so we have a ":few extra rows" in 1 residents inventory lets say just for discussion that the average avatar has 20 "extra" items due to clothing folders how many "active" avatars are there?? say about 60,000 with a float of another say 20,000 due to which members are active at any given time. okay running the math you have 80,000 * 20 =1,600,000 "extra rows" and i would bet that my numbers are LOW. Question for the group Jira or No Jira?? -- Robert L Martin From Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de Wed Oct 7 05:46:23 2009 From: Lance.Corrimal at eregion.de (Lance Corrimal) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:46:23 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> <686651.64247.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200910071446.23908.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Am Mittwoch, 7. Oktober 2009 14:15:30 schrieb Robert Martin: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 7:54 AM, Ann Otoole <missannotoole at yahoo.com> wrote: > > You know they are not actual copies of the asset right? > > What you see in inventory are just pointers to the asset. > > So all the extra "copies" in your inventory amount to are a few > > additional rows assigned to your inventory records in your inventory > > cluster. So in effect making the extra copies to put in folders as > > outfits sort of accomplishes your recommendation anyway right? > > ________________________________ > > okay so we have a ":few extra rows" in 1 residents inventory lets say > just for discussion that the average avatar has 20 "extra" items due > to clothing folders > how many "active" avatars are there?? say about 60,000 with a float of > another say 20,000 due to which members are active at any given time. > okay running the math > you have 80,000 * 20 =1,600,000 "extra rows" and i would bet that my > numbers are LOW. > > Question for the group Jira or No Jira?? what about unix-filesystem-style links? would work like copying an intem into a different folder, but if the original gets deleted or transferred the link would cease to work. Could even be automatic... User tries to copy a no-copy item, that would create a link automatically. User tries to copy a copyable - items gets copied unless user chooses "link here" explicitely from the context menu for inventory folders. > From secret.argent at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 06:02:13 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:02:13 -0500 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910062244r3c5a4aabnc62f79aa9bf8d5dd@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910070435k1c1a8eev94161145a466c030@mail.gmail.com> <686651.64247.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <D6904BED-A429-495C-81D6-AA658A3AB940@gmail.com> On 2009-10-07, at 07:15, Robert Martin wrote: > > Question for the group Jira or No Jira?? Search Jira for people asking for things like soft links or outfit assets. There's plenty of related Jira entries, you would do better piggybacking on one of those. From tateru.nino at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 06:13:44 2009 From: tateru.nino at gmail.com (Tateru Nino) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 00:13:44 +1100 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACC9408.3070808@gmail.com> I seem to recall hearing that there was some prototype work for symbolic links (of a sort) in inventory. Robert Martin wrote: > Bringing a discussion from a third party viewer to the dev list to see > whats possible > > "this would cause a massive drop in inventories due to not needing > multiple copies of items > > a worst/best case scenario for this would be an heavy weight Anthro > Avatar with attachments on 80% of the points and clothes > assembled into a dozen outfits (with minor differences). lets say that > there are 17 points with "stuff" plus a shirt and undershirt (19 base > items) if there are 12 outfits with this base then you have 228 > inventory items for an extra load of > 209 items. This could add up very quickly (quick everybody look in > your inventory and count your outfit dupes) > > suggested format for the card > **********Outfit Selection Card DN="Display Name" MODE=|Replace,Add to > outfit|******* > > 1 "%Item Display name%" %UUID for item% %item type% > 2 "%Item Display name%" %UUID for item% %item type% > .... > N STOP END OF CARD > > and this would also work for folks selling multiple outfits in a > single box same outfit in blue read and green say " > Im not sure what all would need to be changed server and or client > side but does this look like a possible good idea to anybody?? > No jira yet can create one if this idea is "sane" > > -- Tateru Nino http://dwellonit.taterunino.net/ From robla at lindenlab.com Wed Oct 7 12:45:52 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 12:45:52 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Test sprint on Tuesday, Oct 13, 2pm Hippotropolis Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910071245v700c2efbtaf0e03c983cddccd@mail.gmail.com> Hi folks, How about a Snowglobe 1.2 test sprint on Tuesday, October 13 at 2pm PDT. We'll put more details here as we put this together: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-280 Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091007/720d3c27/attachment.htm From robla at lindenlab.com Wed Oct 7 13:51:53 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 13:51:53 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.2 status In-Reply-To: <4ABA5613.50903@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <ab42f67e0909221825x7724418ds385180af5f33e882@mail.gmail.com> <4ABA5613.50903@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910071351q47f36feesba2c0a1132392dfd@mail.gmail.com> Replying to an old email: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Mike Monkowski <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com>wrote: > What is the process now for getting patches into Snowglobe? The > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe_Current_Cycle page hasn't been > updated since June. > I've now updated the page to reflect the current release cycle, including a new project release week of October 19 (preferably that Monday). As you might have guessed, we stopped using the wiki to manage the release, and instead turned our focus toward JIRA. We have a set of queries we run (which I've documented) which make it clear what we plan to work on next. Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091007/bc551e26/attachment.htm From carlo at alinoe.com Wed Oct 7 15:43:18 2009 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:43:18 +0200 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910062244r3c5a4aabnc62f79aa9bf8d5dd@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910070435k1c1a8eev94161145a466c030@mail.gmail.com> <686651.64247.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091007224318.GA15191@alinoe.com> On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 08:15:30AM -0400, Robert Martin wrote: > Question for the group Jira or No Jira?? I think what you want are 'symbolic links', to (no copy) items. I'd support that. It would make a lot of sense if 'no copy' objects/attachments can only be rezzed once, but can appear many times in the inventory (for reason of creating outfits with them in separate folders). -- Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> From techiedavid at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 15:47:05 2009 From: techiedavid at gmail.com (David Simmons) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:47:05 -0700 Subject: [sldev] New feature? Clothing Outfit cards In-Reply-To: <20091007224318.GA15191@alinoe.com> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910062244r3c5a4aabnc62f79aa9bf8d5dd@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910070435k1c1a8eev94161145a466c030@mail.gmail.com> <686651.64247.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> <20091007224318.GA15191@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <3a164ef30910071547l4e557971qd08f9f539b7308c1@mail.gmail.com> Seems like the solution would be macro type function support that can be control either via notecard, or better yet lsl script. The view already have macro type features such as Gestures and wear a folder or remove a folder. Some opensource viewers seems to be heading in this direction. On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 08:15:30AM -0400, Robert Martin wrote: > > Question for the group Jira or No Jira?? > > I think what you want are 'symbolic links', to (no copy) items. > I'd support that. > > It would make a lot of sense if 'no copy' objects/attachments > can only be rezzed once, but can appear many times in the > inventory (for reason of creating outfits with them in separate > folders). > > -- > Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091007/626fdab8/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Wed Oct 7 16:04:32 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 01:04:32 +0200 Subject: [sldev] Symlinks to Inventory Items and Folders (was: New feature? Clothing Outfit cards) In-Reply-To: <200910071446.23908.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> References: <f5bb005e0910060938o4f59e46am5b901c87b3d087cb@mail.gmail.com> <686651.64247.qm@web59106.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <f5bb005e0910070515x70d633c2y3b8dbd0f42edd927@mail.gmail.com> <200910071446.23908.Lance.Corrimal@eregion.de> Message-ID: <4ACD1E80.5020303@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Lance Corrimal schrieb: > what about unix-filesystem-style links? I think that's in pJIRA as http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-581and related ones. cheers Boroondas From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Wed Oct 7 16:47:20 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:47:20 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.2 status In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910071351q47f36feesba2c0a1132392dfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0909221825x7724418ds385180af5f33e882@mail.gmail.com> <4ABA5613.50903@fishkill.ibm.com> <ab42f67e0910071351q47f36feesba2c0a1132392dfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACD2888.6030401@fishkill.ibm.com> So since there is no longer a list of proposed changes, see if I have this right: If I want to offer a patch for consideration, I would put it out there with Affects Version/s: Snowglobe 1.2 and Fix Version/s: None and then it gets moved to Fix Version 1.2, 1.3, or mysterious future after it's decided when to implement it. If this is already a VWR issue, then I would create a SNOW issue to link to it with the info as above. Yes? No? Maybe so? Mike Rob Lanphier wrote: > Replying to an old email: > > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Mike Monkowski > <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com <mailto:monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com>> wrote: > > What is the process now for getting patches into Snowglobe? The > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe_Current_Cycle page hasn't > been updated since June. > > > > I've now updated the page to reflect the current release cycle, > including a new project release week of October 19 (preferably that Monday). > > As you might have guessed, we stopped using the wiki to manage the > release, and instead turned our focus toward JIRA. We have a set of > queries we run (which I've documented) which make it clear what we plan > to work on next. > > Rob > > > From robla at lindenlab.com Wed Oct 7 17:15:49 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:15:49 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.2 status In-Reply-To: <4ACD2888.6030401@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <ab42f67e0909221825x7724418ds385180af5f33e882@mail.gmail.com> <4ABA5613.50903@fishkill.ibm.com> <ab42f67e0910071351q47f36feesba2c0a1132392dfd@mail.gmail.com> <4ACD2888.6030401@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910071715j6faa2aa7oa9fcc50bfe188b5a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Mike Monkowski <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com>wrote: > So since there is no longer a list of proposed changes, see if I have this > right: > > If I want to offer a patch for consideration, I would put it out there with > Affects Version/s: Snowglobe 1.2 and Fix Version/s: None and then it gets > moved to Fix Version 1.2, 1.3, or mysterious future after it's decided when > to implement it. > > If this is already a VWR issue, then I would create a SNOW issue to link to > it with the info as above. > > Yes? No? Maybe so? > Yup, that's exactly right. Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091007/f210d53f/attachment.htm From fire at b3dMultitech.com Thu Oct 8 01:48:21 2009 From: fire at b3dMultitech.com (Fire) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 01:48:21 -0700 Subject: [sldev] What are the side effects of moving an island to another location? Message-ID: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone, Another language educator is considering connecting their island to mine, what side effects interms of scripts/downtime etc should we expect from this move? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091008/ecf00660/attachment.htm From danteferret at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 02:31:22 2009 From: danteferret at gmail.com (Peter Leonard/Dante) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 05:31:22 -0400 Subject: [sldev] What are the side effects of moving an island to another location? In-Reply-To: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4d211a610910080231w22ed7e35k23eb1b07bb2ba40f@mail.gmail.com> In my own experience, I can say it should not be down longer then a normal sim restart. It should not affect scripts in any way either. Even landmarks still point to the right parcels after a move. A move is pretty uneventful. On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:48 AM, Fire <fire at b3dmultitech.com> wrote: > Hi everyone, > Another language educator is considering connecting their island to mine, > what side effects interms of scripts/downtime etc should we expect from this > move? > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091008/f9c8755d/attachment.htm From garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com Thu Oct 8 02:57:25 2009 From: garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com (Garmin Kawaguichi) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:57:25 +0200 Subject: [sldev] What are the side effects of moving an island to anotherlocation? References: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <ABC07B152D214647B93318B742776C61@Deimos> Check all scripts containing region global positions, global corner position, in the case that coordinates are hard coded. See the example here : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetRegionCorner where vecrel -= <256000.0, 256000.0, 0.0>;//Da Boom's region corner is at <256000.0, 256000.0, 0.0> should be changed if Da Boom changes its position in the grid GCI ----- Original Message ----- From: Fire To: sldev at lists.secondlife.com >> SLDev Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 10:48 AM Subject: [sldev] What are the side effects of moving an island to anotherlocation? Hi everyone, Another language educator is considering connecting their island to mine, what side effects interms of scripts/downtime etc should we expect from this move? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091008/b58c87b1/attachment-0001.htm From billwindwalker at rocketmail.com Thu Oct 8 06:39:20 2009 From: billwindwalker at rocketmail.com (Bill Windwalker) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 06:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sldev] What are the side effects of moving an island to another location? In-Reply-To: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <337226.72676.qm@web111208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> You need not worry. Unless you have been running a week long test with a scripted item there is no need to worry .. i have seen island moves more then one time now with no real problems at all. all landmarks and teleport points stay the same. plus no real lag happens do to this. its more like moving a small stone from one place on a table to another spot on a table. or in this case a cube shape world. xstorm Radek........ ________________________________ From: Fire <fire at b3dMultitech.com> To: "sldev at lists.secondlife.com >> SLDev" <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2009 4:48:21 AM Subject: [sldev] What are the side effects of moving an island to another location? Hi everyone, Another language educator is considering connecting their island to mine, what side effects interms of scripts/downtime etc should we expect from this move? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091008/2a66699e/attachment.htm From techiedavid at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 08:52:52 2009 From: techiedavid at gmail.com (David Simmons) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 08:52:52 -0700 Subject: [sldev] What are the side effects of moving an island to another location? In-Reply-To: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a164ef30910080852p668d22dx8d9b50d1d7b74eb@mail.gmail.com> I had the experience recently on a moved island in that using the Pick from the Profile for teleporting failed. I replaced the Pick and it worked fine. I am not sure if that was a temporary situation and may have cleared up on it's own. On 10/8/09, Fire <fire at b3dmultitech.com> wrote: > Hi everyone, > Another language educator is considering connecting their island to mine, > what side effects interms of scripts/downtime etc should we expect from this > move? > From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Thu Oct 8 11:05:25 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:05:25 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.2 status In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910071715j6faa2aa7oa9fcc50bfe188b5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0909221825x7724418ds385180af5f33e882@mail.gmail.com> <4ABA5613.50903@fishkill.ibm.com> <ab42f67e0910071351q47f36feesba2c0a1132392dfd@mail.gmail.com> <4ACD2888.6030401@fishkill.ibm.com> <ab42f67e0910071715j6faa2aa7oa9fcc50bfe188b5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACE29E5.6090309@fishkill.ibm.com> OK, I've updated https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Snowglobe_Development_Process to reflect this policy change. It might also be useful to add a JIRA query to get the Unscheduled issues, rather than going through the dashboard to find them. Mike Rob Lanphier wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Mike Monkowski > <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com <mailto:monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com>> wrote: > > So since there is no longer a list of proposed changes, see if I > have this right: > > If I want to offer a patch for consideration, I would put it out > there with Affects Version/s: Snowglobe 1.2 and Fix Version/s: None > and then it gets moved to Fix Version 1.2, 1.3, or mysterious future > after it's decided when to implement it. > > If this is already a VWR issue, then I would create a SNOW issue to > link to it with the info as above. > > Yes? No? Maybe so? > > > > Yup, that's exactly right. > > Rob > From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 12:09:47 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 21:09:47 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [sldev-commits] r2866 - projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk/indra/newview In-Reply-To: <20091008185041.C8B25441BC@svn.secondlife.com> References: <20091008185041.C8B25441BC@svn.secondlife.com> Message-ID: <20091008210947.1d711065.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 13:50:41 -0500 (CDT) merov.linden at svn.secondlife.com wrote: > Author: merov.linden > Date: 2009-10-08 13:50:41 -0500 (Thu, 08 Oct 2009) > New Revision: 2866 > > Modified: > projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk/indra/newview/llmediaremotectrl.cpp > Trac: http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/changeset/2866 > Log: > SNOW-271: Fixed the streaming audio UI widgets enabling/disabling. > Reviewed by Thickbrick. > IT WORK!!!!!!!!! :D From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 12:12:23 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 21:12:23 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [sldev-commits] r2866 - projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk/indra/newview In-Reply-To: <20091008210947.1d711065.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> References: <20091008185041.C8B25441BC@svn.secondlife.com> <20091008210947.1d711065.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091008211223.60564e7b.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 21:09:47 +0200 Tayra Dagostino <tayra.dagostino at gmail.com> wrote: > > Author: merov.linden > > Date: 2009-10-08 13:50:41 -0500 (Thu, 08 Oct 2009) > > New Revision: 2866 > > > > Modified: > > projects/2009/snowglobe/trunk/indra/newview/llmediaremotectrl.cpp > > Trac: http://svn.secondlife.com/trac/linden/changeset/2866 > > Log: > > SNOW-271: Fixed the streaming audio UI widgets enabling/disabling. > > Reviewed by Thickbrick. > > > > > IT WORK!!!!!!!!! :D oh... forgotten, i work with mime_types.xml.patch patch from SNOW-277 too, or MP3 type mime not recognized From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 15:47:16 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 00:47:16 +0200 Subject: [sldev] about SLPlugin Message-ID: <20091009004716.7412d9ca.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> i see every time i change parcel or sim a new instance of SLPlugin is loaded in memory, old one never stopped&removed... so now i have about 8 istance of SLPlugin..... too heavy for a nice processor with plenty ram too.... linux build 2867, somebody else notice this? From stickman at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 19:00:45 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 19:00:45 -0700 Subject: [sldev] What are the side effects of moving an island to another location? In-Reply-To: <3a164ef30910080852p668d22dx8d9b50d1d7b74eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1dabc2a30910080148g1587ed8fy310ea694ca812559@mail.gmail.com> <3a164ef30910080852p668d22dx8d9b50d1d7b74eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910081900u4ecb99das96918e9d57d8d37d@mail.gmail.com> Are you sure the island was "moved" and not completely replaced? This is probably something that would be nice to get reported on Jira. I haven't heard of this before, and to the best of my knowledge this isn't supposed to happen. From: https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=4012 "Landmarks will continue to function after a move, but home locations may need to be reset. The map may take several hours to update with the new Private Region location." -Stickman On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 8:52 AM, David Simmons <techiedavid at gmail.com> wrote: > I had the experience recently on a moved island in that using the Pick > from the Profile for teleporting failed. I replaced the Pick and it > worked fine. I am not sure if that was a temporary situation and may > have cleared up on it's own. > > On 10/8/09, Fire <fire at b3dmultitech.com> wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> Another language educator is considering connecting their island to mine, >> what side effects interms of scripts/downtime etc should we expect from this >> move? >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From kck325 at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 14:16:09 2009 From: kck325 at gmail.com (chandra kiran kuchi) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:16:09 -0400 Subject: [sldev] [Need Help] When does object update start? Message-ID: <e160f40910101416n7789780fufbf00f2bc512751d@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, I am trying to replicate the viewer. I was unable to find when the object updates to the viewer start on agent login? I mean what all are the conditions that need to be satisfied apart from successful login ( inorder for object updates to start)? The things I did: 1) Checked for successful login 2) Queried for capabilities 3) On Success of seed capabilities, sent agent details. 4) Got agent movement complete. After all this I am unable to get object/avatar updates. Thanks for your help. -- Regards, Chandra K Kuchi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091010/4a3f394c/attachment.htm From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 11:30:44 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:30:44 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [sldev-commits] Successful Build for trunk (2879) In-Reply-To: <20091013010944.36EB3E2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> References: <20091013010944.36EB3E2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> Message-ID: <20091013203044.b736aaa2.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:09:44 -0700 (PDT) buildadmin at lindenlab.com wrote: > > > Linux: > http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2879/Snowglobe-i686-1.2.0.2879.tar.bz2 2009-10-13T18:29:30Z WARNING: LLViewerMediaImpl::newSourceFromMediaType: Couldn't find plugin for media type audio/mpeg no way i must insert <impl> media_plugin_quicktime </impl> at line 248 in mime_types.xml if i want listen audio stream From robla at lindenlab.com Tue Oct 13 13:41:40 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:41:40 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Fwd: Test sprint on Tuesday, Oct 13, 2pm Hippotropolis In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910071245v700c2efbtaf0e03c983cddccd@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910071245v700c2efbtaf0e03c983cddccd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910131341y248209e9wf73942c93e3c1bcb@mail.gmail.com> Hi folks, Reminder that we're planning a test sprint for Snowglobe 1.2 in just 20 minutes: Details to be posted here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-280 (yes, I know this is pretty late not to have more details filled in, but that's what I do right after this email) We're meeting at the Hippotropolis meeting area, which is here: http://bit.ly/itjIz Rob ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> Date: Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 12:45 PM Subject: Test sprint on Tuesday, Oct 13, 2pm Hippotropolis To: SLDev Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Hi folks, How about a Snowglobe 1.2 test sprint on Tuesday, October 13 at 2pm PDT. We'll put more details here as we put this together: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-280 Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091013/5fb3b4bb/attachment.htm From sldev at bitparts.org Wed Oct 14 15:49:26 2009 From: sldev at bitparts.org (Buckaroo Mu) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:49:26 -0500 Subject: [sldev] [sldev-commits] Successful Build for trunk (2879) In-Reply-To: <20091013203044.b736aaa2.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> References: <20091013010944.36EB3E2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> <20091013203044.b736aaa2.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD65576.9010102@bitparts.org> This seems like a simple fix - why hasn't it been committed yet? Or is it a work-around rather than a fix? Tayra Dagostino wrote: > On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:09:44 -0700 (PDT) > buildadmin at lindenlab.com wrote: > > >> Linux: >> http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2009/trunk/2879/Snowglobe-i686-1.2.0.2879.tar.bz2 >> > > 2009-10-13T18:29:30Z WARNING: > LLViewerMediaImpl::newSourceFromMediaType: Couldn't find plugin for > media type audio/mpeg > > no way > > i must insert > > <impl> > media_plugin_quicktime > </impl> > > at line 248 in mime_types.xml if i want listen audio stream > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 16:24:57 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:24:57 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [sldev-commits] Successful Build for trunk (2879) In-Reply-To: <4AD65576.9010102@bitparts.org> References: <20091013010944.36EB3E2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> <20091013203044.b736aaa2.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> <4AD65576.9010102@bitparts.org> Message-ID: <20091015012457.60f69f2d.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:49:26 -0500 Buckaroo Mu <sldev at bitparts.org> wrote: > This seems like a simple fix - why hasn't it been committed yet? Or > is it a work-around rather than a fix? i think is a workaround, i don't find match to anybody.... on top of mime_types.xml file webkit plugin is declared as default, but MP3 shoulod be decoded by right handler, dun know why without IMPL tag slplugin don't match audio/mpeg (dunno if webkit can decode mp3 stream) From tayra.dagostino at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 16:29:22 2009 From: tayra.dagostino at gmail.com (Tayra Dagostino) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:29:22 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [sldev-commits] Successful Build for trunk (2879) In-Reply-To: <20091015012457.60f69f2d.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> References: <20091013010944.36EB3E2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> <20091013203044.b736aaa2.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> <4AD65576.9010102@bitparts.org> <20091015012457.60f69f2d.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091015012922.24c4280c.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:24:57 +0200 Tayra Dagostino <tayra.dagostino at gmail.com> wrote: > > This seems like a simple fix - why hasn't it been committed yet? Or > > is it a work-around rather than a fix? > i think is a workaround, i don't find match to anybody.... on top of > mime_types.xml file webkit plugin is declared as default, but MP3 > shoulod be decoded by right handler, dun know why without IMPL tag > slplugin don't match audio/mpeg (dunno if webkit can decode mp3 > stream) is better go to bed.... i forgot to say SNOW-277 have 2 patch, both working :) 'nite From merov at lindenlab.com Wed Oct 14 17:13:07 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:13:07 -0700 Subject: [sldev] [sldev-commits] Successful Build for trunk (2879) In-Reply-To: <4AD65576.9010102@bitparts.org> References: <20091013010944.36EB3E2CA71@viognier.lindenlab.com> <20091013203044.b736aaa2.tayra.dagostino@gmail.com> <4AD65576.9010102@bitparts.org> Message-ID: <78f69850910141713u2126c600xac1dda47569438dd@mail.gmail.com> Hi, On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Buckaroo Mu <sldev at bitparts.org> wrote: > This seems like a simple fix - why hasn't it been committed yet? Please log a SNOW bug when you detect an error like that (cause it is an error indeed). Emails tend to fall through the cracks but we do triage bugs collectively on a regular basis. > it a work-around rather than a fix? > No, it is indeed the fix. The internal pluginapi branch has a bunch of additional similar fixes that I merged in a patch. See SNOW-300. I'm pretty sure it's correct but review by a committer is a good habit to maintain. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091014/11d050b7/attachment.htm From robla at lindenlab.com Fri Oct 16 11:57:56 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:57:56 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.1.3 Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> Hi folks, With some coercion of build machines and backporting a build system fix, we now have Windows and Mac binaries, and will soon have a Linux binary here for Snowglobe 1.1.3: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:Snowglobe-installers-rc This is really fresh off the presses, as in not tested at all, so don't be entirely surprised if it doesn't even launch. If all looks good, we'll replace Snowglobe 1.1.2 with this version. Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/fbcf6783/attachment.htm From arabellasteadham at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 12:29:59 2009 From: arabellasteadham at gmail.com (Arabella Steadham) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:29:59 +1300 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.1.3 In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b83158c0910161229x1440bcf9jb471356667409921@mail.gmail.com> yay launched :) On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > Hi folks, > > With some coercion of build machines and backporting a build system fix, we > now have Windows and Mac binaries, and will soon have a Linux binary here > for Snowglobe 1.1.3: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:Snowglobe-installers-rc > > This is really fresh off the presses, as in not tested at all, so don't be > entirely surprised if it doesn't even launch. If all looks good, we'll > replace Snowglobe 1.1.2 with this version. > > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/34ceb3ef/attachment.htm From robla at lindenlab.com Fri Oct 16 18:23:03 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:23:03 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.1.3 In-Reply-To: <8b83158c0910161229x1440bcf9jb471356667409921@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910161229x1440bcf9jb471356667409921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910161823y731464d0u89c2eca617dac973@mail.gmail.com> Hi folks, The new Snowglobe 1.1.3 builds are available on the wiki download page now: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Download_Snowglobe I've done a really quick smoke test on Windows, Mac and Linux, but I'm hoping some of you will also give it a shot. If all is quiet over the weekend, we will push this out onto the main download page. Thanks Rob On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Arabella Steadham < arabellasteadham at gmail.com> wrote: > yay launched :) > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> With some coercion of build machines and backporting a build system fix, >> we now have Windows and Mac binaries, and will soon have a Linux binary here >> for Snowglobe 1.1.3: >> https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:Snowglobe-installers-rc >> >> This is really fresh off the presses, as in not tested at all, so don't be >> entirely surprised if it doesn't even launch. If all looks good, we'll >> replace Snowglobe 1.1.2 with this version. >> >> Rob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/da01dbbe/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 18:55:42 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:55:42 -0500 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. Message-ID: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> I am actually working on a stand alone IDE based on avalonedit which is actually really nice. Should it not be time for sl's script editor to grow up and have some real features? Code completion? Better syntax highlighting? etc? I am curious about this as i am doing my work i am thinking maybe for snowglobe we can integrate something like this either as the editor or a launch of the editor of choice and a direct save to SL, So when you hit save it compiles etc like you do it just is a external editor. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/fcd1379c/attachment.htm From TammyNowotny at mac.com Fri Oct 16 18:56:58 2009 From: TammyNowotny at mac.com (Tammy Nowotny) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:56:58 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.1.3 In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910161823y731464d0u89c2eca617dac973@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910161229x1440bcf9jb471356667409921@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910161823y731464d0u89c2eca617dac973@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD9246A.90607@mac.com> what are the difference between Snowglobe 1.1.3 and the 1.2 Snowglobe Test Builds? --Tammy Nowotny Rob Lanphier wrote: > Hi folks, > > The new Snowglobe 1.1.3 builds are available on the wiki download page > now: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Download_Snowglobe > > I've done a really quick smoke test on Windows, Mac and Linux, but I'm > hoping some of you will also give it a shot. If all is quiet over the > weekend, we will push this out onto the main download page. > > Thanks > Rob > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Arabella Steadham > <arabellasteadham at gmail.com <mailto:arabellasteadham at gmail.com>> wrote: > > yay launched :) > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com > <mailto:robla at lindenlab.com>> wrote: > > Hi folks, > > With some coercion of build machines and backporting a build > system fix, we now have Windows and Mac binaries, and will > soon have a Linux binary here for Snowglobe 1.1.3: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:Snowglobe-installers-rc > > This is really fresh off the presses, as in not tested at all, > so don't be entirely surprised if it doesn't even launch. If > all looks good, we'll replace Snowglobe 1.1.2 with this version. > > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/3ee86b4b/attachment.htm From dimentox at dimentox.com Fri Oct 16 19:01:37 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:01:37 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.1.3 In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910161823y731464d0u89c2eca617dac973@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910161229x1440bcf9jb471356667409921@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910161823y731464d0u89c2eca617dac973@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <a33588fc0910161901g3d900497re9fe1c0ebb1c2075@mail.gmail.com> Confirmed working on Vista 64 w/ geforce. no crashes or anomalies yet. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > Hi folks, > > The new Snowglobe 1.1.3 builds are available on the wiki download page now: > https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Download_Snowglobe > > I've done a really quick smoke test on Windows, Mac and Linux, but I'm > hoping some of you will also give it a shot. If all is quiet over the > weekend, we will push this out onto the main download page. > > Thanks > Rob > > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Arabella Steadham < > arabellasteadham at gmail.com> wrote: > >> yay launched :) >> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com>wrote: >> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> With some coercion of build machines and backporting a build system fix, >>> we now have Windows and Mac binaries, and will soon have a Linux binary here >>> for Snowglobe 1.1.3: >>> https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Template:Snowglobe-installers-rc >>> >>> This is really fresh off the presses, as in not tested at all, so don't >>> be entirely surprised if it doesn't even launch. If all looks good, we'll >>> replace Snowglobe 1.1.2 with this version. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/07881927/attachment.htm From blindwanderer at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 19:13:58 2009 From: blindwanderer at gmail.com (Strife Onizuka) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:13:58 -0400 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> Does snowglobe have an interface for arbitrary (notecard, script, etc) asset modification yet? Sounds interesting it should be note that SL is unmanaged C++ and AvalonEdit is Managed (.Net). Bridging the two isn't difficult but it's probably prohibitive for a quick project. Strife, out. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > I am actually working on a stand alone IDE based on avalonedit which is > actually really nice. > > Should it not be time for sl's script editor to grow up and have some real > features? > > Code completion? Better syntax highlighting? etc? > > I am curious about this as i am doing my work i am thinking maybe for > snowglobe we can integrate something like this either as the editor or a > launch of the editor of choice and a direct save to SL, So when you hit save > it compiles etc like you do it just is a external editor. > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/fcfee0e4/attachment-0001.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 19:16:34 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:16:34 -0500 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> Well i was thinking more of a datapipe to push and receive code from your editor of choice. So your code you edit would be automagically sent to the compiler in the viewer etc and report back errors... or success.. Basically bypassing the current editor. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Strife Onizuka <blindwanderer at gmail.com>wrote: > Does snowglobe have an interface for arbitrary (notecard, script, etc) > asset modification yet? > > Sounds interesting it should be note that SL is unmanaged C++ and > AvalonEdit is Managed (.Net). Bridging the two isn't difficult but it's > probably prohibitive for a quick project. > > Strife, out. > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com>wrote: > >> I am actually working on a stand alone IDE based on avalonedit which is >> actually really nice. >> >> Should it not be time for sl's script editor to grow up and have some real >> features? >> >> Code completion? Better syntax highlighting? etc? >> >> I am curious about this as i am doing my work i am thinking maybe for >> snowglobe we can integrate something like this either as the editor or a >> launch of the editor of choice and a direct save to SL, So when you hit save >> it compiles etc like you do it just is a external editor. >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email >> may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not >> Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/3ec2f84c/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 19:16:34 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:16:34 -0500 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> Well i was thinking more of a datapipe to push and receive code from your editor of choice. So your code you edit would be automagically sent to the compiler in the viewer etc and report back errors... or success.. Basically bypassing the current editor. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Strife Onizuka <blindwanderer at gmail.com>wrote: > Does snowglobe have an interface for arbitrary (notecard, script, etc) > asset modification yet? > > Sounds interesting it should be note that SL is unmanaged C++ and > AvalonEdit is Managed (.Net). Bridging the two isn't difficult but it's > probably prohibitive for a quick project. > > Strife, out. > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com>wrote: > >> I am actually working on a stand alone IDE based on avalonedit which is >> actually really nice. >> >> Should it not be time for sl's script editor to grow up and have some real >> features? >> >> Code completion? Better syntax highlighting? etc? >> >> I am curious about this as i am doing my work i am thinking maybe for >> snowglobe we can integrate something like this either as the editor or a >> launch of the editor of choice and a direct save to SL, So when you hit save >> it compiles etc like you do it just is a external editor. >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email >> may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not >> Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/3ec2f84c/attachment-0001.htm From blindwanderer at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 19:13:58 2009 From: blindwanderer at gmail.com (Strife Onizuka) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:13:58 -0400 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> Does snowglobe have an interface for arbitrary (notecard, script, etc) asset modification yet? Sounds interesting it should be note that SL is unmanaged C++ and AvalonEdit is Managed (.Net). Bridging the two isn't difficult but it's probably prohibitive for a quick project. Strife, out. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > I am actually working on a stand alone IDE based on avalonedit which is > actually really nice. > > Should it not be time for sl's script editor to grow up and have some real > features? > > Code completion? Better syntax highlighting? etc? > > I am curious about this as i am doing my work i am thinking maybe for > snowglobe we can integrate something like this either as the editor or a > launch of the editor of choice and a direct save to SL, So when you hit save > it compiles etc like you do it just is a external editor. > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/fcfee0e4/attachment-0002.htm From robla at lindenlab.com Fri Oct 16 19:26:51 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:26:51 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.1.3 In-Reply-To: <4AD9246A.90607@mac.com> References: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910161229x1440bcf9jb471356667409921@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910161823y731464d0u89c2eca617dac973@mail.gmail.com> <4AD9246A.90607@mac.com> Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910161926j321d670j35f7059495742a0@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Tammy Nowotny <TammyNowotny at mac.com> wrote: > what are the difference between Snowglobe 1.1.3 and the 1.2 Snowglobe Test > Builds? > Oops, sorry for the lack of explanation. Snowglobe 1.1.3 is meant to be a quick update to incorporate the fix from the recent 1.23.5 release. Details on the issue are here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-306 Without the fix, editing notecards on objects will appear revert to an old version upon saving, though everything will ultimately save just fine. With the fix, no such problem. That's the only delta between 1.1.2 and 1.1.3. 1.2 is much more extensive. Here's the release notes for that: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Snowglobe_Release/1.2 We're hoping to have a release candidate for 1.2 next week sometime, but we've got a blocker or two to sort out. Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091016/994517d7/attachment.htm From andromedaquonset at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 09:48:17 2009 From: andromedaquonset at gmail.com (Andromeda Quonset) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 10:48:17 -0600 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.co m> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ad9f549.1608c00a.182f.5aea@mx.google.com> That would be nice. I was bit recently by the official script editor: As it turns out, my source code had exceeded a 65535 byte limit. I had to remove a lot of comments. Among other issues. The compiled script is (was?) about 32K. At 08:16 PM 10/16/2009, Brandon Husbands wrote: >Well i was thinking more of a datapipe to push and receive code from >your editor of choice. >So your code you edit would be automagically sent to the compiler in >the viewer etc and report back errors... or success.. Basically >bypassing the current editor. > >On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Strife Onizuka ><<mailto:blindwanderer at gmail.com>blindwanderer at gmail.com> wrote: >Does snowglobe have an interface for arbitrary (notecard, script, >etc) asset modification yet? > >Sounds interesting it should be note that SL is unmanaged C++ and >AvalonEdit is Managed (.Net). Bridging the two isn't difficult but >it's probably prohibitive for a quick project. > >Strife, out. > >On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Brandon Husbands ><<mailto:xotmid at gmail.com>xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: >I am actually working on a stand alone IDE based on avalonedit which >is actually really nice. > >Should it not be time for sl's script editor to grow up and have >some real features? > >Code completion? Better syntax highlighting? etc? > >I am curious about this as i am doing my work i am thinking maybe >for snowglobe we can integrate something like this either as the >editor or a launch of the editor of choice and a direct save to SL, >So when you hit save it compiles etc like you do it just is a external editor. > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of >email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United >States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of >this message. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________ >Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: ><http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > > > > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of >email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United >States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of >this message. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >_______________________________________________ >Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/de706579/attachment-0001.htm From nexiim at googlemail.com Sat Oct 17 14:52:15 2009 From: nexiim at googlemail.com (Nexii Malthus) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:52:15 +0100 Subject: [sldev] Complex scripts and good style In-Reply-To: <F642BF6246774C95B9788A2F4111AC8C@AcerDesktop> References: <69385A5CE8B9479A92DEE158ACDBD726@AcerDesktop> <FD5F76BE-1A5C-44B5-9D2A-80CFD818D007@gmail.com> <445BEE765A6045A8A101EF9B32F3184D@AcerDesktop> <4AD790D7.7070401@gmail.com> <4E437CCC5E284FA5A9B7B871F6B04D8A@AcerDesktop> <591B7A03-2C2B-4392-AAC0-36243A5D5F08@kryslix.com> <F642BF6246774C95B9788A2F4111AC8C@AcerDesktop> Message-ID: <824c8ab70910171452t45c52758nbf75b8e519c141@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, the way I do it. My projects increasingly become more complex and vastly demanding of performance improvements, as well as most importantly, smart flexible design. When I start a complex script these days, I create three scripts. Practical. This is the main script, where all the beta/final code is worked on. It is basically all the theory put into action. Comments are mostly left out, my written code is meant to be read mostly self-explanatory, unless a comment is really necessary. Lightweight is better than heavyweight, but that is just my own personal take. Theory. This mostly consists basically of the design, plan and specifications, I use a few tricks here I have learned over time. I keep this open in the background all the time. For example 'Pointers', basically emulating memory pointers from other programming languages for lists. This is basically used in concert with two lists, basically a hashtable kinda with custom data to tell me what data this is etc, then the other being all the raw data, a list of vectors, floats and heavy data. The raw data list can be pushed into slave-scripts if the data gets heavy enough depending on application. Another trick I use often is to condense as much information I can into a single integer, using bitshifting and all the neat bit operators such as AND for checking flags. Lastly, multi line comments are great here than having to push double slashes everywhere, especially if you are on an older client which doesn't support the highlighting you can take this to advantage to create your own custom highlighting without compiling into actual code! (/* Comment! */ Yeah, multi line comments are compiled correclty, the viewer doesn't support these syntax highlight tokens yet, although my custom client Vertical Life has a personal modification in the keywords file for "/*/" tokens) Scratch. This is something new to me, basically somewhere for me to quickly test functions or quick ideas. Found it very, very good for debugging code. It is just a big place for me to scratch around and compile stuff fast without the overhead in the main script. I tend to transfer over scripts in here to let LSL do the heavywork for me, say I was designing specifications to use various bits in an integer for different purposes, I use a set of various bitmask functions to get me correct offsets. Well, I switch around a lot, moving from programming methods and techniques to others. But this is basically my own personal current way of doing things effectively for now. Hope my shared knowledge may be of use to anyone with a similiar mindset. - Nexii Malthus On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 1:24 AM, Maxxi Short <maxxi at southville.net> wrote: > Thanks, Kubota - actually "LINK_THIS" is what I was thinking of when I said > "THIS_PRIM". This makes a lot of sense - I'll give that a go! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kubota Homewood" <sl42 at kryslix.com> > To: "Maxxi Short" <maxxi at southville.net> > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 12:18 AM > Subject: Re: Complex scripts and good style > > > > Yes, you can. Further, use LINK_THIS to only talk to the current prim, > > or use the link number of the prim the script is in (but the same > > object). If you have a script in a "library" prim you can send > responses > > to the sender (the first parameter in the link_message event). The > thing > > to keep aware of is that any script in a prim that has a link_message > > handler will wake up with a link message is sent to that prim. Link > > messages do appear to be reasonably efficient, but also remember there > is > > a queue depth of 64 so if you send them faster than they can be handled > > (perhaps because a script doesn't get run often enough in a busy sim) > > that you can lose link messages. > > > > I dearly wish we could direct a link message at a specific script. > > Barring that, it would be wonderful to have two sets of mask/value pairs > > such that > > > > if ((n & mask1) == value 1 || (n & mask2) == value2) > > send link message to script > > > > Why two sets? One set to limit it to this prim, the other set to still > > allow global messages. I would even go for: > > > > if ((n & mask) == value 1 || (n & mask) == value2) > > send link message to script > > > > I already more or less do this inside scripts, but it would be nice if, > > on a busy sim, the script never even had to be woken up. > > > > Kubota > > > > _______________________________________________ > Click here to unsubscribe or manage your list subscription: > https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/secondlifescripters > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/b898a280/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 14:57:44 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:57:44 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. Message-ID: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> Can we please get a method or something that we can detect using lsl, libopenmv or something to detect a official viewer securely. I know clients can spoof so it would have to be something that is like pgp key/response etc. But there are viewers out there that exploit thinks like bounding boxes etc. that wreck havock with gaming systems. and rpg stuff. It should not be too hard.. I mean wouldent LLabs want to say hey this is the official viewer or hey this is a custom one. If not for thinks liek i speak of but for even compatibility / featuresets. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/13a24f8c/attachment.htm From blindwanderer at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:05:51 2009 From: blindwanderer at gmail.com (Strife Onizuka) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:05:51 -0400 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <89ca6da00910171505i3036bda5i83b40af7c48da582@mail.gmail.com> A pipe system sounds interesting idea but would be complicated and require custom designed software (you need two way communications). Obvious Requirements: 1) Load a script in an external app 2) Compile and save the script from the external app 3) The client needs to be able to report back to the editor compiler errors. One solution is for the client to watch for when the script file is saved by the external editor. A) But how is going to tell a save from a compile request? B) How is the client going to report back to the editor the success? Another is for the editor to invoke a special process that then communicates with the viewer. This solves the save/compile and reporting problems but... C) If multiple client instances are running, how is going to know which to talk to? A solution to this problem is to setup a service that tracks these temporary files to match them to their client. Down this road madness lies. Any direction you approach it, it's an ugly problem. Strife. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > Well i was thinking more of a datapipe to push and receive code from your > editor of choice. > So your code you edit would be automagically sent to the compiler in the > viewer etc and report back errors... or success.. Basically bypassing the > current editor. > > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Strife Onizuka <blindwanderer at gmail.com>wrote: > >> Does snowglobe have an interface for arbitrary (notecard, script, etc) >> asset modification yet? >> >> Sounds interesting it should be note that SL is unmanaged C++ and >> AvalonEdit is Managed (.Net). Bridging the two isn't difficult but it's >> probably prohibitive for a quick project. >> >> Strife, out. >> >> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> I am actually working on a stand alone IDE based on avalonedit which is >>> actually really nice. >>> >>> Should it not be time for sl's script editor to grow up and have some >>> real features? >>> >>> Code completion? Better syntax highlighting? etc? >>> >>> I am curious about this as i am doing my work i am thinking maybe for >>> snowglobe we can integrate something like this either as the editor or a >>> launch of the editor of choice and a direct save to SL, So when you hit save >>> it compiles etc like you do it just is a external editor. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email >>> may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not >>> Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/e2c045d0/attachment.htm From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:10:14 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:10:14 -0300 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA40C6.7050100@Gmail.com> What would prevent someone from using the exact source code of the official client with minor tweaks (that you may or may not consider unwelcome) leaving the part of the code that makes the client signature intact ? (or even simply adding the signature code to a striped down bot client) Brandon Husbands escreveu: > Can we please get a method or something that we can detect using lsl, > libopenmv or something to detect a official viewer securely. > I know clients can spoof so it would have to be something that is like > pgp key/response etc. But there are viewers out there that exploit > thinks like bounding boxes etc. that wreck havock with gaming systems. > and rpg stuff. It should not be too hard.. I mean wouldent LLabs want > to say hey this is the official viewer or hey this is a custom one. If > not for thinks liek i speak of but for even compatibility / featuresets. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From stickman at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:14:24 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:14:24 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > Can we please get a method or something that we can detect using lsl, > libopenmv or something to detect a official viewer securely. > I know clients can spoof so it would have to be something that is like pgp > key/response etc.? But there are viewers out there that exploit thinks like > bounding boxes etc. that wreck havock with gaming systems. and rpg stuff. > It should not be too hard.. I mean wouldent LLabs want to say hey this is > the official viewer or hey this is a custom one. If not for thinks liek i > speak of but for even compatibility / featuresets. Detecting the client version for the purpose of anti-grief is futile. I believe there have been enough discussions on this list about that where we don't need to go into another one. However, for standard purposes, having a way to detect the client version would be nice -- especially now that Emerald is pushing more and more into territory that breaks compatibility. Currently, Emerald renders shine differently. They recently changed the way attachments work, as well. Being able to troubleshoot issues that people bring me about my products easily by simply saying, "Oh, you're using Emerald, which does A, B, and C which other clients won't be able to see" would be a lot easier than taking stabs in the dark. Besides, there are grues in the dark. Grues are scary. -Stickman From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:16:51 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:16:51 -0300 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content breaking features you mentioned? Stickman escreveu: > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Can we please get a method or something that we can detect using lsl, >> libopenmv or something to detect a official viewer securely. >> I know clients can spoof so it would have to be something that is like pgp >> key/response etc. But there are viewers out there that exploit thinks like >> bounding boxes etc. that wreck havock with gaming systems. and rpg stuff. >> It should not be too hard.. I mean wouldent LLabs want to say hey this is >> the official viewer or hey this is a custom one. If not for thinks liek i >> speak of but for even compatibility / featuresets. >> > > Detecting the client version for the purpose of anti-grief is futile. > I believe there have been enough discussions on this list about that > where we don't need to go into another one. > > However, for standard purposes, having a way to detect the client > version would be nice -- especially now that Emerald is pushing more > and more into territory that breaks compatibility. > > Currently, Emerald renders shine differently. They recently changed > the way attachments work, as well. Being able to troubleshoot issues > that people bring me about my products easily by simply saying, "Oh, > you're using Emerald, which does A, B, and C which other clients won't > be able to see" would be a lot easier than taking stabs in the dark. > > Besides, there are grues in the dark. Grues are scary. > > -Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > From xotmid at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:20:35 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:20:35 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <a33588fc0910171520w31b77e0ev1e42837462bbf45d@mail.gmail.com> last time i talked with them..... They basically gave dcs and the combat sims a big middle finger... I would not expect much from them. On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Tigro Spottystripes < tigrospottystripes at gmail.com> wrote: > Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content > breaking features you mentioned? > > Stickman escreveu: > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> Can we please get a method or something that we can detect using lsl, > >> libopenmv or something to detect a official viewer securely. > >> I know clients can spoof so it would have to be something that is like > pgp > >> key/response etc. But there are viewers out there that exploit thinks > like > >> bounding boxes etc. that wreck havock with gaming systems. and rpg > stuff. > >> It should not be too hard.. I mean wouldent LLabs want to say hey this > is > >> the official viewer or hey this is a custom one. If not for thinks liek > i > >> speak of but for even compatibility / featuresets. > >> > > > > Detecting the client version for the purpose of anti-grief is futile. > > I believe there have been enough discussions on this list about that > > where we don't need to go into another one. > > > > However, for standard purposes, having a way to detect the client > > version would be nice -- especially now that Emerald is pushing more > > and more into territory that breaks compatibility. > > > > Currently, Emerald renders shine differently. They recently changed > > the way attachments work, as well. Being able to troubleshoot issues > > that people bring me about my products easily by simply saying, "Oh, > > you're using Emerald, which does A, B, and C which other clients won't > > be able to see" would be a lot easier than taking stabs in the dark. > > > > Besides, there are grues in the dark. Grues are scary. > > > > -Stickman > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/5d63c17f/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:24:22 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:24:22 -0500 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <89ca6da00910171505i3036bda5i83b40af7c48da582@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> <89ca6da00910171505i3036bda5i83b40af7c48da582@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <a33588fc0910171524k6a6a4477g5f4bdd3beb9000f0@mail.gmail.com> Well what i was thinking is this flow.. user creates object and click the new script button. Check for configured external editor.. Bypass the viewer editor and send text of script to the registered handler to launch the external editor. User edits the editor. The editor would need a plugin that has a send to sl pipe. so there would be no confusion with the saving vs send to sl. The code in text format comes back to the client it does its compileing and reports back on the success or fail event. Thats what i thought of in a nut shell. On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Strife Onizuka <blindwanderer at gmail.com>wrote: > A pipe system sounds interesting idea but would be complicated and require > custom designed software (you need two way communications). > > Obvious Requirements: > 1) Load a script in an external app > 2) Compile and save the script from the external app > 3) The client needs to be able to report back to the editor compiler > errors. > > One solution is for the client to watch for when the script file is saved > by the external editor. A) But how is going to tell a save from a compile > request? B) How is the client going to report back to the editor the > success? > Another is for the editor to invoke a special process that then > communicates with the viewer. This solves the save/compile and reporting > problems but... C) If multiple client instances are running, how is going to > know which to talk to? A solution to this problem is to setup a service that > tracks these temporary files to match them to their client. Down this road > madness lies. > > Any direction you approach it, it's an ugly problem. > > Strife. > > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com>wrote: > >> Well i was thinking more of a datapipe to push and receive code from your >> editor of choice. >> So your code you edit would be automagically sent to the compiler in the >> viewer etc and report back errors... or success.. Basically bypassing the >> current editor. >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Strife Onizuka <blindwanderer at gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> Does snowglobe have an interface for arbitrary (notecard, script, etc) >>> asset modification yet? >>> >>> Sounds interesting it should be note that SL is unmanaged C++ and >>> AvalonEdit is Managed (.Net). Bridging the two isn't difficult but it's >>> probably prohibitive for a quick project. >>> >>> Strife, out. >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> I am actually working on a stand alone IDE based on avalonedit which is >>>> actually really nice. >>>> >>>> Should it not be time for sl's script editor to grow up and have some >>>> real features? >>>> >>>> Code completion? Better syntax highlighting? etc? >>>> >>>> I am curious about this as i am doing my work i am thinking maybe for >>>> snowglobe we can integrate something like this either as the editor or a >>>> launch of the editor of choice and a direct save to SL, So when you hit save >>>> it compiles etc like you do it just is a external editor. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email >>>> may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not >>>> Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>>> privileges >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email >> may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not >> Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/75d15ecf/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:27:23 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:27:23 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910171520w31b77e0ev1e42837462bbf45d@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <a33588fc0910171520w31b77e0ev1e42837462bbf45d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910171527o2a2181cbw4d009fc3914b4b6b@mail.gmail.com> All my discussions with Emerald people have been friendly and helpful. One of their developers put in a feature just for me, and went and looked at and communicated with me about one of the bugs I reported. (And ultimately fixed it, too) But I haven't brought up the compatibility breaking stuff with them, no. I figure they know what they're doing and have their reasons, and I wouldn't be able to sway their decisions. The most I would expect to get out of it is their reasons for doing it. Of course, I haven't actually tried so it's all speculation. -Stickman On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > last time i talked with them..... They basically gave dcs and the combat > sims a big middle finger...? I would not expect much from them. > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Tigro Spottystripes > <tigrospottystripes at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content >> breaking features you mentioned? >> >> Stickman escreveu: >> > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Can we please get a method or something that we can detect using lsl, >> >> libopenmv or something to detect a official viewer securely. >> >> I know clients can spoof so it would have to be something that is like >> >> pgp >> >> key/response etc. ?But there are viewers out there that exploit thinks >> >> like >> >> bounding boxes etc. that wreck havock with gaming systems. and rpg >> >> stuff. >> >> It should not be too hard.. I mean wouldent LLabs want to say hey this >> >> is >> >> the official viewer or hey this is a custom one. If not for thinks liek >> >> i >> >> speak of but for even compatibility / featuresets. >> >> >> > >> > Detecting the client version for the purpose of anti-grief is futile. >> > I believe there have been enough discussions on this list about that >> > where we don't need to go into another one. >> > >> > However, for standard purposes, having a way to detect the client >> > version would be nice -- especially now that Emerald is pushing more >> > and more into territory that breaks compatibility. >> > >> > Currently, Emerald renders shine differently. They recently changed >> > the way attachments work, as well. Being able to troubleshoot issues >> > that people bring me about my products easily by simply saying, "Oh, >> > you're using Emerald, which does A, B, and C which other clients won't >> > be able to see" would be a lot easier than taking stabs in the dark. >> > >> > Besides, there are grues in the dark. Grues are scary. >> > >> > -Stickman >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> > privileges >> > >> > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may > be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nexiim at googlemail.com Sat Oct 17 15:33:40 2009 From: nexiim at googlemail.com (Nexii Malthus) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:33:40 +0100 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910171520w31b77e0ev1e42837462bbf45d@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <a33588fc0910171520w31b77e0ev1e42837462bbf45d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <824c8ab70910171533y188569bn206e25b70bd8a162@mail.gmail.com> Hm, I was working on a prototype script API in my own client, but no one had taken an interest. It offered free public connection for basic user agent data to scripts without otherwise requiring permission bits, since viewer type and version are basic necessities. It is basically something like Dale Glass was working on, a simple Script API, just taken a step further for allowing parallel communication. - Nexii ( mailing lists hate me, I blame google ) On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > last time i talked with them..... They basically gave dcs and the combat > sims a big middle finger... I would not expect much from them. > > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Tigro Spottystripes < > tigrospottystripes at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content >> breaking features you mentioned? >> >> Stickman escreveu: >> > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Can we please get a method or something that we can detect using lsl, >> >> libopenmv or something to detect a official viewer securely. >> >> I know clients can spoof so it would have to be something that is like >> pgp >> >> key/response etc. But there are viewers out there that exploit thinks >> like >> >> bounding boxes etc. that wreck havock with gaming systems. and rpg >> stuff. >> >> It should not be too hard.. I mean wouldent LLabs want to say hey this >> is >> >> the official viewer or hey this is a custom one. If not for thinks liek >> i >> >> speak of but for even compatibility / featuresets. >> >> >> > >> > Detecting the client version for the purpose of anti-grief is futile. >> > I believe there have been enough discussions on this list about that >> > where we don't need to go into another one. >> > >> > However, for standard purposes, having a way to detect the client >> > version would be nice -- especially now that Emerald is pushing more >> > and more into territory that breaks compatibility. >> > >> > Currently, Emerald renders shine differently. They recently changed >> > the way attachments work, as well. Being able to troubleshoot issues >> > that people bring me about my products easily by simply saying, "Oh, >> > you're using Emerald, which does A, B, and C which other clients won't >> > be able to see" would be a lot easier than taking stabs in the dark. >> > >> > Besides, there are grues in the dark. Grues are scary. >> > >> > -Stickman >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email > may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not > Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/9cfe77f8/attachment.htm From snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com Sat Oct 17 15:34:43 2009 From: snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com (SnowFox102) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:34:43 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> He didn't say it breaks content, he said it breaks compatibility - that is, Emerald has a lot of (desirable) features that the LL viewer doesn't. But your average Ruth doesn't know that, so they may buy a product and want to mod it to do something their friend on Emerald has it doing, only to find that they can't do it because they're not using Emerald. I think he means that standardizing viewer tags would be helpful for us merchants, because then we can track down such incompatibility issues much easier. The average user may not know what viewer they're using, or know how to tell the merchant. Being able to detect it on our own would save a lot of time and energy. Also, with the exception of RLV content, I don't know of anyone that makes content that requires a specific viewer, but with LL viewers' approval rating constantly falling and third party viewers adding features asked of the Lindens months ago, it wouldn't surprise me to start seeing a few products bearing "Requires X Viewer to function", since more and more people are using those viewers anyway. If/when that day comes, viewer tags would help there too. Maya Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content > breaking features you mentioned? > > > From secret.argent at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:37:15 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:37:15 -0500 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <B48485FE-2B43-47A1-AE26-8248FD98C665@gmail.com> On 2009-10-16, at 21:16, Brandon Husbands wrote: > Well i was thinking more of a datapipe to push and receive code from > your editor of choice. > So your code you edit would be automagically sent to the compiler in > the viewer etc and report back errors... or success.. Basically > bypassing the current editor. For that something as simple as a command line to run the command on a named file (eg, 'vi %s'), and a background process watching for a change in the last-modified time for the file, would be enough glue. From stickman at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:48:42 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:48:42 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910171548l2e225a0ase57078691dd66794@mail.gmail.com> Yes, that. Thank you for your verbal articulation and clarification. If I really cared about this, I'd make a Jira -- maybe dig up Emerald's code that turns the names green and drop in a patch, with a configuration option that lets people set the color of the names based on the client or something. Then try to push it into Snowglobe since I've got a snowball's chance in summer of getting it into the main viewer. Alas, I am too busy and too unskilled in programming to do such a thing. So I have to hope someone else cares more than I do. -Stickman On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 3:34 PM, SnowFox102 <snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote: > He didn't say it breaks content, he said it breaks compatibility - that > is, Emerald has a lot of (desirable) features that the LL viewer > doesn't. But your average Ruth doesn't know that, so they may buy a > product and want to mod it to do something their friend on Emerald has > it doing, only to find that they can't do it because they're not using > Emerald. I think he means that standardizing viewer tags would be > helpful for us merchants, because then we can track down such > incompatibility issues much easier. The average user may not know what > viewer they're using, or know how to tell the merchant. Being able to > detect it on our own would save a lot of time and energy. > > Also, with the exception of RLV content, I don't know of anyone that > makes content that requires a specific viewer, but with LL viewers' > approval rating constantly falling and third party viewers adding > features asked of the Lindens months ago, it wouldn't surprise me to > start seeing a few products bearing "Requires X Viewer to function", > since more and more people are using those viewers anyway. If/when that > day comes, viewer tags would help there too. > > Maya > > Tigro Spottystripes wrote: >> Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content >> breaking features you mentioned? >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From nexisentertainment at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 15:53:46 2009 From: nexisentertainment at gmail.com (Rob Nelson) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:53:46 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1255820026.4309.18.camel@RAGE> AWG discussed this with Nyx a while ago when we discussed options for detecting clients from LSL. Currently, Emerald uses avatar TE 0 for detecting clients. However, Nyx has said that this won't be around forever, since LL will basically implement clothing layer protection on all clients by not sending clothing layers at all (only the baked skin textures will be sent). Several options have come up, but the one I like most uses the viewer update channel to detect viewer types. Although this is easily spoofed (as are other methods), it is still one of the best ways to detect a client, requiring minimal viewer-side changes. It will, however, require a message.xml change to receive other agents' viewer tags, from what I understand. On Sat, 2009-10-17 at 16:57 -0500, Brandon Husbands wrote: > Can we please get a method or something that we can detect using lsl, > libopenmv or something to detect a official viewer securely. > I know clients can spoof so it would have to be something that is like > pgp key/response etc. But there are viewers out there that exploit > thinks like bounding boxes etc. that wreck havock with gaming systems. > and rpg stuff. It should not be too hard.. I mean wouldent LLabs want > to say hey this is the official viewer or hey this is a custom one. If > not for thinks liek i speak of but for even compatibility / > featuresets. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From nexiim at googlemail.com Sat Oct 17 15:57:54 2009 From: nexiim at googlemail.com (Nexii Malthus) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:57:54 +0100 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> Message-ID: <824c8ab70910171557q14f25942g807d8cbcaed0aea1@mail.gmail.com> Oh and I have been sending out little notecards with instructions for patching custom shader effects. Say my shiny that uses the diffuse map as a shinymask. My thoughts on the subject of compatibility is that it is ultimately up to the user how they want to view the world. There is far too much lost control for content creators already, for compatibility to be of any value today. I just have to point to the biggest content breakers: WindLight has a very large stake in personalisation which can drastically alter the appearance of content. Another one is the new Shadows feature, it breaks all content that have baked shadows. ETC. The list goes on, *without *the influence of third party clients. - Nexii On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 11:34 PM, SnowFox102 < snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote: > He didn't say it breaks content, he said it breaks compatibility - that > is, Emerald has a lot of (desirable) features that the LL viewer > doesn't. But your average Ruth doesn't know that, so they may buy a > product and want to mod it to do something their friend on Emerald has > it doing, only to find that they can't do it because they're not using > Emerald. I think he means that standardizing viewer tags would be > helpful for us merchants, because then we can track down such > incompatibility issues much easier. The average user may not know what > viewer they're using, or know how to tell the merchant. Being able to > detect it on our own would save a lot of time and energy. > > Also, with the exception of RLV content, I don't know of anyone that > makes content that requires a specific viewer, but with LL viewers' > approval rating constantly falling and third party viewers adding > features asked of the Lindens months ago, it wouldn't surprise me to > start seeing a few products bearing "Requires X Viewer to function", > since more and more people are using those viewers anyway. If/when that > day comes, viewer tags would help there too. > > Maya > > Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > > Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content > > breaking features you mentioned? > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/4ac4f966/attachment-0001.htm From nexiim at googlemail.com Sat Oct 17 16:35:48 2009 From: nexiim at googlemail.com (Nexii Malthus) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:35:48 +0100 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <824c8ab70910171557q14f25942g807d8cbcaed0aea1@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> <824c8ab70910171557q14f25942g807d8cbcaed0aea1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <824c8ab70910171635r2effebd8l821b3b243729e969@mail.gmail.com> Emerald has moved over to Client-to-Client communication via Instant Messages. For client detection every single agent that comes into presence gets spammed by Emerald 4 times to test for the presence of the c2c communication API. (Not sure why it spams 4 times, even though I never ever had a IM packet lost so far) Snowglobe won't be getting exotic features like this any soon, since they are all basically hacks designed to circumvent the slow progress by the propietary simulator code development. Back on topic, breaking compatibility IS breaking content, the same way if you render a HTML tag somewhat differently you might be breaking millions of websites. Websites can adapt though because they can see use the user agent, we just don't have that luxury in SL yet. - Nexii On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Nexii Malthus <nexiim at googlemail.com>wrote: > Oh and I have been sending out little notecards with instructions for > patching custom shader effects. Say my shiny that uses the diffuse map as a > shinymask. My thoughts on the subject of compatibility is that it is > ultimately up to the user how they want to view the world. There is far too > much lost control for content creators already, for compatibility to be of > any value today. I just have to point to the biggest content breakers: > WindLight has a very large stake in personalisation which can drastically > alter the appearance of content. > Another one is the new Shadows feature, it breaks all content that have > baked shadows. > ETC. > > The list goes on, *without *the influence of third party clients. > > - Nexii > > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 11:34 PM, SnowFox102 < > snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote: > >> He didn't say it breaks content, he said it breaks compatibility - that >> is, Emerald has a lot of (desirable) features that the LL viewer >> doesn't. But your average Ruth doesn't know that, so they may buy a >> product and want to mod it to do something their friend on Emerald has >> it doing, only to find that they can't do it because they're not using >> Emerald. I think he means that standardizing viewer tags would be >> helpful for us merchants, because then we can track down such >> incompatibility issues much easier. The average user may not know what >> viewer they're using, or know how to tell the merchant. Being able to >> detect it on our own would save a lot of time and energy. >> >> Also, with the exception of RLV content, I don't know of anyone that >> makes content that requires a specific viewer, but with LL viewers' >> approval rating constantly falling and third party viewers adding >> features asked of the Lindens months ago, it wouldn't surprise me to >> start seeing a few products bearing "Requires X Viewer to function", >> since more and more people are using those viewers anyway. If/when that >> day comes, viewer tags would help there too. >> >> Maya >> >> Tigro Spottystripes wrote: >> > Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content >> > breaking features you mentioned? >> > >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >> privileges >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091018/46cf7248/attachment.htm From dimentox at dimentox.com Sat Oct 17 17:05:38 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:05:38 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <824c8ab70910171635r2effebd8l821b3b243729e969@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> <824c8ab70910171557q14f25942g807d8cbcaed0aea1@mail.gmail.com> <824c8ab70910171635r2effebd8l821b3b243729e969@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <a33588fc0910171705u22a18025xe0928f921227c928@mail.gmail.com> This messaging system... Is it a enable/disable or is it a constant? What would i look for? (maybe libsl code to help?) On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Nexii Malthus <nexiim at googlemail.com>wrote: > Emerald has moved over to Client-to-Client communication via Instant > Messages. For client detection every single agent that comes into presence > gets spammed by Emerald 4 times to test for the presence of the c2c > communication API. (Not sure why it spams 4 times, even though I never ever > had a IM packet lost so far) > > Snowglobe won't be getting exotic features like this any soon, since they > are all basically hacks designed to circumvent the slow progress by the > propietary simulator code development. > > > Back on topic, breaking compatibility IS breaking content, the same way if > you render a HTML tag somewhat differently you might be breaking millions of > websites. Websites can adapt though because they can see use the user agent, > we just don't have that luxury in SL yet. > > - Nexii > > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Nexii Malthus <nexiim at googlemail.com>wrote: > >> Oh and I have been sending out little notecards with instructions for >> patching custom shader effects. Say my shiny that uses the diffuse map as a >> shinymask. My thoughts on the subject of compatibility is that it is >> ultimately up to the user how they want to view the world. There is far too >> much lost control for content creators already, for compatibility to be of >> any value today. I just have to point to the biggest content breakers: >> WindLight has a very large stake in personalisation which can drastically >> alter the appearance of content. >> Another one is the new Shadows feature, it breaks all content that have >> baked shadows. >> ETC. >> >> The list goes on, *without *the influence of third party clients. >> >> - Nexii >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 11:34 PM, SnowFox102 < >> snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote: >> >>> He didn't say it breaks content, he said it breaks compatibility - that >>> is, Emerald has a lot of (desirable) features that the LL viewer >>> doesn't. But your average Ruth doesn't know that, so they may buy a >>> product and want to mod it to do something their friend on Emerald has >>> it doing, only to find that they can't do it because they're not using >>> Emerald. I think he means that standardizing viewer tags would be >>> helpful for us merchants, because then we can track down such >>> incompatibility issues much easier. The average user may not know what >>> viewer they're using, or know how to tell the merchant. Being able to >>> detect it on our own would save a lot of time and energy. >>> >>> Also, with the exception of RLV content, I don't know of anyone that >>> makes content that requires a specific viewer, but with LL viewers' >>> approval rating constantly falling and third party viewers adding >>> features asked of the Lindens months ago, it wouldn't surprise me to >>> start seeing a few products bearing "Requires X Viewer to function", >>> since more and more people are using those viewers anyway. If/when that >>> day comes, viewer tags would help there too. >>> >>> Maya >>> >>> Tigro Spottystripes wrote: >>> > Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content >>> > breaking features you mentioned? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting >>> privileges >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/7967ee12/attachment.htm From snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com Sat Oct 17 17:13:55 2009 From: snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com (Maya Remblai) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:13:55 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <824c8ab70910171635r2effebd8l821b3b243729e969@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> <824c8ab70910171557q14f25942g807d8cbcaed0aea1@mail.gmail.com> <824c8ab70910171635r2effebd8l821b3b243729e969@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA5DC3.1040903@dragonkeepcreations.com> There is truth to the breaking compatibility breaks content argument, but as you yourself said, it should be up to the user how they want to view the world and its content. LL has done far worse in breaking content lately, whereas the third parties have worked to fix it and add to it. It's not hard to see why I side with the third party developers on this one. ;) That said, it's also true that the third party viewers don't necessarily do it right, like the IM spam from Emerald. But the few users who know about it seem to feel that it's better to have that, AND be able to see the world/their builds/their avatars the way the creators intended, as opposed to using an LL viewer that does neither. As for Snowglobe, I've said it before and I'll keep saying it as long as the status quo is maintained: It doesn't do anything the end-user can see as different, currently. No new features, no new bug fixes. Under the hood work is needed of course, but it can't be pushed as a good alternative viewer until it does something special that end users can actually see that makes it different from the default viewer. Besides having a different name and icon. That's why third party viewers are so popular, they DO stuff. Maya Nexii Malthus wrote: > Emerald has moved over to Client-to-Client communication via Instant > Messages. For client detection every single agent that comes into > presence gets spammed by Emerald 4 times to test for the presence of > the c2c communication API. (Not sure why it spams 4 times, even though > I never ever had a IM packet lost so far) > > Snowglobe won't be getting exotic features like this any soon, since > they are all basically hacks designed to circumvent the slow progress > by the propietary simulator code development. > > > Back on topic, breaking compatibility IS breaking content, the same > way if you render a HTML tag somewhat differently you might be > breaking millions of websites. Websites can adapt though because they > can see use the user agent, we just don't have that luxury in SL yet. > > - Nexii > From zha.ewry at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 17:32:35 2009 From: zha.ewry at gmail.com (Zha Ewry) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:32:35 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.1.3 In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910161926j321d670j35f7059495742a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910161229x1440bcf9jb471356667409921@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910161823y731464d0u89c2eca617dac973@mail.gmail.com> <4AD9246A.90607@mac.com> <ab42f67e0910161926j321d670j35f7059495742a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <920d7d850910171732n3f8048d7qf599ed00601c2f7b@mail.gmail.com> I can report that this one runs cleanly on Windows 7 Enterprise 64 bit, on ATI HD3650 hardware. Gave it a quick spin around several busy sims and it seems fine. Also fine on Windows XP SP3, 32 Bit, with Nvidia 570M hardware. ~ Zha On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Tammy Nowotny <TammyNowotny at mac.com> wrote: >> >> what are the difference between Snowglobe 1.1.3 and the 1.2 Snowglobe Test >> Builds? > > > Oops, sorry for the lack of explanation. > > Snowglobe 1.1.3 is meant to be a quick update to incorporate the fix from > the recent 1.23.5 release.? Details on the issue are here: > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-306 > > Without the fix, editing notecards on objects will appear revert to an old > version upon saving, though everything will ultimately save just fine.? With > the fix, no such problem. > > That's the only delta between 1.1.2 and 1.1.3. > > 1.2 is much more extensive.? Here's the release notes for that: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Snowglobe_Release/1.2 > > We're hoping to have a release candidate for 1.2 next week sometime, but > we've got a blocker or two to sort out. > > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From jessesa at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 17:37:29 2009 From: jessesa at gmail.com (Jesse Barnett) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:37:29 -0400 Subject: [sldev] lsl editor overhaul. In-Reply-To: <B48485FE-2B43-47A1-AE26-8248FD98C665@gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910161855q3dc579f4m1be4accffe342659@mail.gmail.com> <89ca6da00910161913y699dedcbuf59e2c5291448fe2@mail.gmail.com> <a33588fc0910161916n655ec530xb74afd2f3708940c@mail.gmail.com> <B48485FE-2B43-47A1-AE26-8248FD98C665@gmail.com> Message-ID: <eb7206a90910171737p3688d343oae6a8150aed7039@mail.gmail.com> I had a conversation with Masakazu two months ago. She was in the process of doing a complete rewrite of lslint which will give us the ability to define events and new constants. There was no firm timeline on when she would be finished, but when complete it will be released open source. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/482db1cb/attachment-0001.htm From dimentox at dimentox.com Sat Oct 17 19:10:54 2009 From: dimentox at dimentox.com (Dimentox) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:10:54 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.1.3 In-Reply-To: <920d7d850910171732n3f8048d7qf599ed00601c2f7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910161157w76350c55s259759d8b125afde@mail.gmail.com> <8b83158c0910161229x1440bcf9jb471356667409921@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910161823y731464d0u89c2eca617dac973@mail.gmail.com> <4AD9246A.90607@mac.com> <ab42f67e0910161926j321d670j35f7059495742a0@mail.gmail.com> <920d7d850910171732n3f8048d7qf599ed00601c2f7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <a33588fc0910171910w61b76665o2d0d27e1cb61f61f@mail.gmail.com> I am unhappy to say snowglobe does not compile on vs2010 :P but ill get that working :P On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Zha Ewry <zha.ewry at gmail.com> wrote: > I can report that this one runs cleanly on Windows 7 Enterprise 64 > bit, on ATI HD3650 hardware. Gave it a quick spin around several busy > sims and it seems fine. > Also fine on Windows XP SP3, 32 Bit, with Nvidia 570M hardware. > > ~ Zha > > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Tammy Nowotny <TammyNowotny at mac.com> > wrote: > >> > >> what are the difference between Snowglobe 1.1.3 and the 1.2 Snowglobe > Test > >> Builds? > > > > > > Oops, sorry for the lack of explanation. > > > > Snowglobe 1.1.3 is meant to be a quick update to incorporate the fix from > > the recent 1.23.5 release. Details on the issue are here: > > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-306 > > > > Without the fix, editing notecards on objects will appear revert to an > old > > version upon saving, though everything will ultimately save just fine. > With > > the fix, no such problem. > > > > That's the only delta between 1.1.2 and 1.1.3. > > > > 1.2 is much more extensive. Here's the release notes for that: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Snowglobe_Release/1.2 > > > > We're hoping to have a release candidate for 1.2 next week sometime, but > > we've got a blocker or two to sort out. > > > > Rob > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > > privileges > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email is a private and confidential communication. Any use of email may be subject to the laws and regulations of the United States. You may not Repost, Distribute nor reproduce any content of this message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091017/83ab2ab2/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 23:22:06 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 01:22:06 -0500 Subject: [sldev] I just sped up compile time by 4x Message-ID: <a33588fc0910172322m29f343far887758076e08debd@mail.gmail.com> Using visual studio express 2005 Time to compile from clean install: about 15 mins. Computer Specs Quad core 3.g each proc 6g memory Vista home Prem How? edit C:\libs\linden\indra\cmake\00-Common.cmake set these values set(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_DEBUG "${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_DEBUG} /Od /Zi /MDd /MP4" CACHE STRING "C++ compiler debug options" FORCE) set(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELWITHDEBINFO "${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELWITHDEBINFO} /Od /Zi /MD /MP4" CACHE STRING "C++ compiler release-with-debug options" FORCE) set(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELEASE "${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELEASE} ${LL_CXX_FLAGS} /O2 /Zi /MD /MP4" CACHE STRING "C++ compiler release options" FORCE) the value i addes was the /MP4 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb385193.aspx Multi proccessor 4 since i have 4 cpus My cpus were at 100% the whole time and i was surfing, editing files etc. Previously i was at 100% on only 1 cpu. Also in the build in run options i set my max to 10 just for some overkill. if i would have set this to one it probably would have built faster there would not have been a io wait Ill do another test soon! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091018/1d8d9b7a/attachment.htm From malachi at tamzap.com Sun Oct 18 18:04:52 2009 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:04:52 -0400 Subject: [sldev] I just sped up compile time by 4x In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910172322m29f343far887758076e08debd@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910172322m29f343far887758076e08debd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A430BF5537C4D15AAB18BF900DEE345@fuckmicrosoft> Curious as to if anyone knows how to or could please... Create a patch of 1.23.5 over 1.23.4. im still a bit new to this all and it just seems like a pain to have to go and start over completely for a minor change. but seems 1.23.5 is mandatory? or so some of my friends are telling me. it would be very nice to have a patch that shows exactly what has changed and where. this would allow us to quickly make the changes requested by LL without having to start completely over. so what are my chances of getting a patch ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091018/dadfe143/attachment.htm From latifer at streamgrid.net Sun Oct 18 20:13:09 2009 From: latifer at streamgrid.net (Latif Khalifa) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 05:13:09 +0200 Subject: [sldev] I just sped up compile time by 4x In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910172322m29f343far887758076e08debd@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910172322m29f343far887758076e08debd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ebce2ec0910182013s5cb980d9h97ea14233215cae6@mail.gmail.com> Shouldn't just adding /MP to compile flags be enough? I recall docu saying that /MP will default number of concurrent compiles, to number of CPUs in the box. On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > Using visual studio express 2005 > Time to compile from clean install: about 15 mins. > Computer Specs > Quad core 3.g each proc > 6g memory > Vista home Prem > > > How? > edit C:\libs\linden\indra\cmake\00-Common.cmake > > > set these values > set(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_DEBUG "${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_DEBUG} /Od /Zi /MDd /MP4" > ????? CACHE STRING "C++ compiler debug options" FORCE) > ? set(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELWITHDEBINFO > ????? "${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELWITHDEBINFO} /Od /Zi /MD /MP4" > ????? CACHE STRING "C++ compiler release-with-debug options" FORCE) > ? set(CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELEASE > ????? "${CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELEASE} ${LL_CXX_FLAGS} /O2 /Zi /MD /MP4" > ????? CACHE STRING "C++ compiler release options" FORCE) > > the value i addes was the /MP4 > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb385193.aspx > Multi proccessor 4 since i have 4 cpus > > My cpus were at 100% the whole time and i was surfing, editing files etc. > Previously i was at 100% on only 1 cpu. > Also in the build in run options i set my max to 10 just for some overkill. > if i would have set this to one it probably would have built faster there > would not have been a io wait > Ill do another test soon! > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Mon Oct 19 04:03:56 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:03:56 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 1.23.5 notecard changes (SNOW-306 & VWR-15816) (was: I just sped up compile time by 4x) In-Reply-To: <9A430BF5537C4D15AAB18BF900DEE345@fuckmicrosoft> References: <a33588fc0910172322m29f343far887758076e08debd@mail.gmail.com> <9A430BF5537C4D15AAB18BF900DEE345@fuckmicrosoft> Message-ID: <4ADC479C.9050509@boroon.dasgupta.ch> malachi wrote: > Curious as to if anyone knows how to or could please... Create a patch > of 1.23.5 over 1.23.4. Merov attached a patch to http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-306 . It's for snowglobe (and already in SVN), but it might apply against the official Viewer's sources, as well (I haven't tried). Otherwise there's still what Techwolf extracted at http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-15816 > [...] but seems 1.23.5 is mandatory? Well, the actual security fix seems to be server side, so you can't really avoid it. Though, it changes the server's behaviour and the viewer has to compensate for that if it doesn't want to confuse the user. > [...] it would be very nice to have a patch that shows exactly what > has changed and where. this would allow us to quickly make the changes > requested by LL without having to start completely over. Starting over with what? If you make modifications to the viewer you should be prepared to rebase them on a regular basis unless/until they get included upstream. Except, of course, you're ready to maintain a complete fork. If just the rebuild time is the issue, look into using CCache. (If you use a SVN checkout instead of the source archives, your build system should already avoid rebuilding stuff that hasn't changed.) I hope this helps Boroondas From billwindwalker at rocketmail.com Mon Oct 19 07:42:15 2009 From: billwindwalker at rocketmail.com (Bill Windwalker) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sldev] vista snowglobe crash In-Reply-To: <4ADC479C.9050509@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <a33588fc0910172322m29f343far887758076e08debd@mail.gmail.com> <9A430BF5537C4D15AAB18BF900DEE345@fuckmicrosoft> <4ADC479C.9050509@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <539203.80898.qm@web111206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Problem signature Problem Event Name:?AppHangB1 Application Name:?SnowglobeRelease.exe Application Version:?1.1.2.2584 Application Timestamp:?4a7470cf Hang Signature:?9dda Hang Type:?0 OS Version:?6.0.6002.2.2.0.256.1 Locale ID:?1033 Additional Hang Signature 1:?a80f7ad85dbab1fa0584f4aa5a260845 Additional Hang Signature 2:?4f01 Additional Hang Signature 3:?044d37d9431791decc04677926df23fe Additional Hang Signature 4:?9dda Additional Hang Signature 5:?a80f7ad85dbab1fa0584f4aa5a260845 Additional Hang Signature 6:?4f01 Additional Hang Signature 7:?044d37d9431791decc04677926df23fe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091019/27129405/attachment.htm From open at autistici.org Mon Oct 19 10:47:14 2009 From: open at autistici.org (Opensource Obscure) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:47:14 +0000 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <4ADA5DC3.1040903@dragonkeepcreations.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> <824c8ab70910171557q14f25942g807d8cbcaed0aea1@mail.gmail.com> <824c8ab70910171635r2effebd8l821b3b243729e969@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA5DC3.1040903@dragonkeepcreations.com> Message-ID: <0910a8ec530057852dbba685cc09dc46@localhost> I think that any huge / general discussion about official, Snowglobe or third-party viewers, or comparison between them is almost pointless *right now* http://www.massively.com/2009/10/19/looking-forward-to-second-life-2-0 Aren't we waiting for a new LL viewer? that's something that will change the SL-compatible viewers landscape in a very profound way, and will probably establish a few new reference points / metrics to use when judging viewers and their features (sorry, I'm not sure my English is clear enough here, please ask if neeeded) ciao Opensource Obscure -- http://twitter.com/oobscure From kakurady at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 11:37:09 2009 From: kakurady at gmail.com (Kakurady Drakenar) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:37:09 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Problems compiling / running Snowglobe 1.1 on Ubuntu Karmic beta with GCC 4.4.1 In-Reply-To: <4AD784D8.5030209@gmail.com> References: <4AD784D8.5030209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADCB1D5.6030705@gmail.com> I am having some troubles compiling Snowglobe 1.1 on Ubuntu Karmic Koala beta with GCC 4.1. (Since this ) I applied attachments in SNOW-194, SNOW-195, SNOW-204, but GCC still dies reporting it expects a binary operator before () in some #elif in Boost, which have been changed into #else... #endif upstream. But GCC still warns "deprecated conversion from string constant to ?gchar*?" for llmediaimplgstreamervidplug.cpp (has been removed with the addition of media plugins) and also that /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h: In destructor ?LLFrameStats::~LLFrameStats()?: /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: warning: ?<anonymous>? is used uninitialized in this function /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: note: ?<anonymous>? was declared here /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h: In destructor ?virtual LLFrameStats::~LLFrameStats()?: /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: warning: ?<anonymous>? is used uninitialized in this function /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: note: ?<anonymous>? was declared here /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h: In destructor ?virtual LLFrameStats::~LLFrameStats()?: /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: warning: ?<anonymous>? is used uninitialized in this function /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: note: ?<anonymous>? was declared here /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h: In member function ?void LLFrameStats::dump()?: /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: warning: ?<anonymous>? may be used uninitialized in this function /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: note: ?<anonymous>? was declared here /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h: In member function ?void LLFrameStats::setTrackStats(BOOL)?: /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: warning: ?<anonymous>? may be used uninitialized in this function /home/nekoyasha/dev/snowglobe/working/linden/indra/llcommon/lldarray.h:60: note: ?<anonymous>? was declared here The compiled viewer will run, but exits with 2009-10-15T19:49:45Z llimage/llimage.cpp(218) : error 2009-10-15T19:49:45Z ERROR: getData: Bad memory allocation for the image buffer! Geneko Nemeth/Kakurady From kakurady at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 11:52:32 2009 From: kakurady at gmail.com (Kakurady Drakenar) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:52:32 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> Message-ID: <4ADCB570.5020305@gmail.com> While detecting viewer brand and version is nice and useful (as everyone else have pointed out in this thread), I think viewer *feature* detection should be avaliable to other clients/scripts so people would prefer it over detecting brand where possible. Otherwise, this might lead up to clients/content triggering functions on and off based on viewer brand... last time it happened, it led to MSIE branding itself as "Mozilla". I don't want to see that happen again. Currently client capabilities are sent during login but that's only used by the server, and it's only concerned about protocol-level functions... In addition I would like to see vendor-specific function declarations, in the spirit of Cascade Style Sheet rules "-moz-*" or "-webkit-*". This is so new and experimental functions (like multiple attachments per point) that don't involve protocol changes won't need to wait for official sanction to be widespread. But on the other hand (or paw), this might lead to each login sending a crazy long list of capabilities, in the style of OpenGL extension strings. They are so long, they make some apps crash. Kakurady ? 2009/10/17 18:34, SnowFox102 ??: > He didn't say it breaks content, he said it breaks compatibility - that > is, Emerald has a lot of (desirable) features that the LL viewer > doesn't. But your average Ruth doesn't know that, so they may buy a > product and want to mod it to do something their friend on Emerald has > it doing, only to find that they can't do it because they're not using > Emerald. I think he means that standardizing viewer tags would be > helpful for us merchants, because then we can track down such > incompatibility issues much easier. The average user may not know what > viewer they're using, or know how to tell the merchant. Being able to > detect it on our own would save a lot of time and energy. > > Also, with the exception of RLV content, I don't know of anyone that > makes content that requires a specific viewer, but with LL viewers' > approval rating constantly falling and third party viewers adding > features asked of the Lindens months ago, it wouldn't surprise me to > start seeing a few products bearing "Requires X Viewer to function", > since more and more people are using those viewers anyway. If/when that > day comes, viewer tags would help there too. > > Maya > > Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > >> Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content >> breaking features you mentioned? >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 11:56:09 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:56:09 -0300 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures. In-Reply-To: <4ADCB570.5020305@gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910171457n600c3c0di6a86e2c4a17f492@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910171514i720945a0u81991d1f71eefb96@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA4253.4030704@Gmail.com> <4ADA4683.5060501@dragonkeepcreations.com> <4ADCB570.5020305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADCB649.1090504@Gmail.com> instead of stuff being sent during login, it probably woul dbe better if the client simply replaied to script questions about what features it got, or even if it got an specific feature Kakurady Drakenar escreveu: > While detecting viewer brand and version is nice and useful (as everyone > else have pointed out in this thread), I think viewer *feature* > detection should be avaliable to other clients/scripts so people would > prefer it over detecting brand where possible. Otherwise, this might > lead up to clients/content triggering functions on and off based on > viewer brand... last time it happened, it led to MSIE branding itself as > "Mozilla". I don't want to see that happen again. > > Currently client capabilities are sent during login but that's only used > by the server, and it's only concerned about protocol-level functions... > > In addition I would like to see vendor-specific function declarations, > in the spirit of Cascade Style Sheet rules "-moz-*" or "-webkit-*". This > is so new and experimental functions (like multiple attachments per > point) that don't involve protocol changes won't need to wait for > official sanction to be widespread. But on the other hand (or paw), this > might lead to each login sending a crazy long list of capabilities, in > the style of OpenGL extension strings. They are so long, they make some > apps crash. > > Kakurady > > ? 2009/10/17 18:34, SnowFox102 ??: > >> He didn't say it breaks content, he said it breaks compatibility - that >> is, Emerald has a lot of (desirable) features that the LL viewer >> doesn't. But your average Ruth doesn't know that, so they may buy a >> product and want to mod it to do something their friend on Emerald has >> it doing, only to find that they can't do it because they're not using >> Emerald. I think he means that standardizing viewer tags would be >> helpful for us merchants, because then we can track down such >> incompatibility issues much easier. The average user may not know what >> viewer they're using, or know how to tell the merchant. Being able to >> detect it on our own would save a lot of time and energy. >> >> Also, with the exception of RLV content, I don't know of anyone that >> makes content that requires a specific viewer, but with LL viewers' >> approval rating constantly falling and third party viewers adding >> features asked of the Lindens months ago, it wouldn't surprise me to >> start seeing a few products bearing "Requires X Viewer to function", >> since more and more people are using those viewers anyway. If/when that >> day comes, viewer tags would help there too. >> >> Maya >> >> Tigro Spottystripes wrote: >> >> >>> Stickman, have you talked with the Emerald people about the content >>> breaking features you mentioned? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From robla at lindenlab.com Tue Oct 20 10:25:11 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:25:11 -0700 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> Hi folks, I'd like to make sure you all see the announcement of the upcoming 3rd party viewer policy: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy Followups need to be directed to the forum: https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/3731 ....since many people involved in crafting the new policy are not on this mailing list, but will be monitoring that forum. Thanks Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091020/ea808f7f/attachment.htm From tinselsilvera at frontiernet.net Tue Oct 20 11:14:35 2009 From: tinselsilvera at frontiernet.net (tinselsilvera at frontiernet.net) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:14:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures Message-ID: <799014010.6902811256062475275.JavaMail.root@cl05-host03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> Regarding Maya's Snowglobe observation "It doesn't do anything the end-user can see as different, currently." I can only speak of my own experience in saying that you are wrong on that point. My inworld experience, post windlight, pre Snowglobe, was a world of gray. Everytime I visited a new place I would have to wait up to ten minutes for my world to rezz around me. Since Snowglobe, and the way it handles textures, I no longer live in a world of gray. Snowglobe has changed my experience for the better. Is it the end all, be all, viewer? Not yet. I still have screen freezes ending in crashing out at least once per session. I also have temporary screen freezes that are annoying. But total overall experience? Huge improvement for me. I have tried most of the third party viewers with the same gray/slow results as the LL standard viewer. My setup is amd dcp 4400+ 2.3ghz, GeForce 9500 GT 1gb, dsl connection. -- Tinsel Silvera Spoke n' Cog, Owner http://tinselsilvera.blogspot.com/ https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=335918 From snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com Tue Oct 20 16:12:19 2009 From: snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com (Maya Remblai) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:12:19 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Client detection and official viewer signatures In-Reply-To: <799014010.6902811256062475275.JavaMail.root@cl05-host03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> References: <799014010.6902811256062475275.JavaMail.root@cl05-host03.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <4ADE43D3.6060703@dragonkeepcreations.com> That's because Snowglobe handles textures differently, and apparently your computer has trouble with the standard viewer's method. So you're right on that point, that Snowglobe does have that going for it. But what I was talking about was more along the lines of features. Snowglobe's texture handling isn't something that the average user will notice, because their computer can run SL properly already. In theory, anyway. When I say Snowglobe doesn't do anything new from a user's standpoint, I mean it doesn't have any new abilities. No flexisculpts, no extra attachment points, avatar alpha masking, no features that users have been asking for for months/years and should be in *some* test viewer somewhere. The fact that third party viewers already have lots of new features and are open source (so they COULD be in Snowglobe) gives me very little faith in the Snowglobe project. It's all under the hood stuff, no attention is being paid to feature inclusion. Developing requested features and fixes is just as important in a development viewer as redone calculations, and Snowglobe isn't doing it. Maya tinselsilvera at frontiernet.net wrote: > Regarding Maya's Snowglobe observation "It doesn't do anything the end-user can see as different, currently." > > I can only speak of my own experience in saying that you are wrong on that point. My inworld experience, post windlight, pre Snowglobe, was a world of gray. Everytime I visited a new place I would have to wait up to ten minutes for my world to rezz around me. Since Snowglobe, and the way it handles textures, I no longer live in a world of gray. Snowglobe has changed my experience for the better. Is it the end all, be all, viewer? Not yet. I still have screen freezes ending in crashing out at least once per session. I also have temporary screen freezes that are annoying. But total overall experience? Huge improvement for me. > > I have tried most of the third party viewers with the same gray/slow results as the LL standard viewer. My setup is amd dcp 4400+ 2.3ghz, GeForce 9500 GT 1gb, dsl connection. > > From morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com Tue Oct 20 16:38:23 2009 From: morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com (Morgaine) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:38:23 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> This is likely to have a negative impact on interest in supporting the viewer at dev level. There is little point in working on something that you cannot use and test because access is denied. It's equivalent to a website allowing only specific builds of web browser to connect. With this move, you will drop right off the main open source highway and into a backwater. Morgaine. ================================== On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'd like to make sure you all see the announcement of the upcoming 3rd > party viewer policy: > > https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy > > Followups need to be directed to the forum: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/3731 > > ....since many people involved in crafting the new policy are not on this > mailing list, but will be monitoring that forum. > > Thanks > Rob > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/cfdb088d/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 16:44:52 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:44:52 -0700 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> > This is likely to have a negative impact on interest in supporting the > viewer at dev level.? There is little point in working on something that you > cannot use and test because access is denied. > > It's equivalent to a website allowing only specific builds of web browser to > connect.? With this move, you will drop right off the main open source > highway and into a backwater. There's been a lot of discussion on this issue, about what should be done and what makes sense, and what's uncontrollable. From GordonWendt at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 16:53:53 2009 From: GordonWendt at gmail.com (Gordon Wendt) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:53:53 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> If LL just keeps this as a way to note which viewers are sanctioned as reliable 3rd party viewers it will be great, it wll all but elminate scamming people into downloading fake versions of any well known 3rd party viewers and will give the developers a mark of trust. It worries me that extremists like Ann and Prok want this to be something it's not, a mandatory full code cavity search to connect to SL if you will, but the Lindens already ignore Prok most of the time and hopefully they'll ignore the other extremists who essentially want to close source SL again and/or make it so 3rd party viewers have to be licensed to enter but cannot distribute their code any further (currently a violation of the GPL so it would require a license change) to prevent people using it maliciously. -Gordon On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Stickman <stickman at gmail.com> wrote: > > This is likely to have a negative impact on interest in supporting the > > viewer at dev level. There is little point in working on something that > you > > cannot use and test because access is denied. > > > > It's equivalent to a website allowing only specific builds of web browser > to > > connect. With this move, you will drop right off the main open source > > highway and into a backwater. > > There's been a lot of discussion on this issue, about what should be > done and what makes sense, and what's uncontrollable. > > From what I read, LL's making a very smart move here. > > 1) They're going to be officially listing the legit third party viewers. > 2) They're going to ban those residents who create harmful viewers > that break the ToS. > > I mean, where's the problem? Did I read something wrong? > > -Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091020/e0a4e795/attachment.htm From robertltux at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 16:55:47 2009 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:55:47 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Stickman <stickman at gmail.com> wrote: .. > From what I read, LL's making a very smart move here. > > 1) They're going to be officially listing the legit third party viewers. > 2) They're going to ban those residents who create harmful viewers > that break the ToS. > > I mean, where's the problem? Did I read something wrong? > 2 is going to be the problem since it would be easy for a viewer to spoof the tags for a "legit" viewer and then you have say the Emerald folks getting banned because of an AR due to a hacked version what needs to happen is Linden Labs needs to run a build farm to make "signed copies" of the viewers is deems to be kosher and have some checksummed way to id the viewer. this is going to get very messy very fast. -- Robert L Martin From tom at streamsense.net Tue Oct 20 17:11:53 2009 From: tom at streamsense.net (Thomas Grimshaw) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:11:53 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADE51C9.5040607@streamsense.net> This is all pretty ridiculous. The viewer code is open source. Third party viewer developers MUST make the source available so as not to violate the ToS. This means that ANY third party viewer code might be changed at some point to add something malicious, there is absolutely no way of detecting, preventing or avoiding this. All this policy will do is drive the current "bad" viewers to spoof and hide their identity. I'm pretty sure the Lindens know this, and so i'm taking this announcement with a pinch of salt... it serves as a warning to residents, and it really doesn't affect viewer developers. Tom. Gordon Wendt wrote: > If LL just keeps this as a way to note which viewers are sanctioned as > reliable 3rd party viewers it will be great, it wll all but elminate > scamming people into downloading fake versions of any well known 3rd > party viewers and will give the developers a mark of trust. > > It worries me that extremists like Ann and Prok want this to be > something it's not, a mandatory full code cavity search to connect to > SL if you will, but the Lindens already ignore Prok most of the time > and hopefully they'll ignore the other extremists who essentially want > to close source SL again and/or make it so 3rd party viewers have to > be licensed to enter but cannot distribute their code any further > (currently a violation of the GPL so it would require a license > change) to prevent people using it maliciously. > > -Gordon > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Stickman <stickman at gmail.com > <mailto:stickman at gmail.com>> wrote: > > > This is likely to have a negative impact on interest in > supporting the > > viewer at dev level. There is little point in working on > something that you > > cannot use and test because access is denied. > > > > It's equivalent to a website allowing only specific builds of > web browser to > > connect. With this move, you will drop right off the main open > source > > highway and into a backwater. > > There's been a lot of discussion on this issue, about what should be > done and what makes sense, and what's uncontrollable. > > From what I read, LL's making a very smart move here. > > 1) They're going to be officially listing the legit third party > viewers. > 2) They're going to ban those residents who create harmful viewers > that break the ToS. > > I mean, where's the problem? Did I read something wrong? > > -Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated > posting privileges > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From tom at streamsense.net Tue Oct 20 17:13:23 2009 From: tom at streamsense.net (Thomas Grimshaw) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:13:23 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADE51C9.5040607@streamsense.net> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE51C9.5040607@streamsense.net> Message-ID: <4ADE5223.6090600@streamsense.net> That should have read "violate the license", not ToS. ~T Thomas Grimshaw wrote: > This is all pretty ridiculous. > > The viewer code is open source. Third party viewer developers MUST make > the source available so as not to violate the ToS. This means that ANY > third party viewer code might be changed at some point to add something > malicious, there is absolutely no way of detecting, preventing or > avoiding this. All this policy will do is drive the current "bad" > viewers to spoof and hide their identity. > > I'm pretty sure the Lindens know this, and so i'm taking this > announcement with a pinch of salt... it serves as a warning to > residents, and it really doesn't affect viewer developers. > > Tom. > > Gordon Wendt wrote: > >> If LL just keeps this as a way to note which viewers are sanctioned as >> reliable 3rd party viewers it will be great, it wll all but elminate >> scamming people into downloading fake versions of any well known 3rd >> party viewers and will give the developers a mark of trust. >> >> It worries me that extremists like Ann and Prok want this to be >> something it's not, a mandatory full code cavity search to connect to >> SL if you will, but the Lindens already ignore Prok most of the time >> and hopefully they'll ignore the other extremists who essentially want >> to close source SL again and/or make it so 3rd party viewers have to >> be licensed to enter but cannot distribute their code any further >> (currently a violation of the GPL so it would require a license >> change) to prevent people using it maliciously. >> >> -Gordon >> >> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Stickman <stickman at gmail.com >> <mailto:stickman at gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> > This is likely to have a negative impact on interest in >> supporting the >> > viewer at dev level. There is little point in working on >> something that you >> > cannot use and test because access is denied. >> > >> > It's equivalent to a website allowing only specific builds of >> web browser to >> > connect. With this move, you will drop right off the main open >> source >> > highway and into a backwater. >> >> There's been a lot of discussion on this issue, about what should be >> done and what makes sense, and what's uncontrollable. >> >> From what I read, LL's making a very smart move here. >> >> 1) They're going to be officially listing the legit third party >> viewers. >> 2) They're going to ban those residents who create harmful viewers >> that break the ToS. >> >> I mean, where's the problem? Did I read something wrong? >> >> -Stickman >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated >> posting privileges >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges >> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From missannotoole at yahoo.com Tue Oct 20 17:24:25 2009 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Putting words in my mouth in an all out defamation campaign Gordon? Extremist am I? Most likely by conventional corporate logic I am the opposite of extremist. Why are people so worried? Is there a problem with having to register like so many suggest content creators be "in good standing" (registered)? Actually I'm sort of curious how the "registry" would work when a viewer project consists of a team of developers. One person has to be held accountable for the entire team? Guess all that has to be worked out in the brown bags which haven't happened yet. I think people are freaking out ahead of schedule. And in one of my posts I listed some use cases for client development and I haven't seen any information to suggest all the use cases have been considered and discussed. Would be a good idea to get all the use cases documented. What I am seeing is a number of open source people behaving in an unprofessional manner which is not going to help them attain constructive input to the program. BTW there is a reason Rob made the OP on this topic. The discussion is happening elsewhere. ________________________________ From: Gordon Wendt <GordonWendt at gmail.com> To: Second Life Developer Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Sent: Tue, October 20, 2009 7:53:53 PM Subject: Re: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com If LL just keeps this as a way to note which viewers are sanctioned as reliable 3rd party viewers it will be great, it wll all but elminate scamming people into downloading fake versions of any well known 3rd party viewers and will give the developers a mark of trust. It worries me that extremists like Ann and Prok want this to be something it's not, a mandatory full code cavity search to connect to SL if you will, but the Lindens already ignore Prok most of the time and hopefully they'll ignore the other extremists who essentially want to close source SL again and/or make it so 3rd party viewers have to be licensed to enter but cannot distribute their code any further (currently a violation of the GPL so it would require a license change) to prevent people using it maliciously. -Gordon On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Stickman <stickman at gmail.com> wrote: > >> This is likely to have a negative impact on interest in supporting the >>> viewer at dev level. There is little point in working on something that you >>> cannot use and test because access is denied. >>> >>> It's equivalent to a website allowing only specific builds of web browser to >>> connect. With this move, you will drop right off the main open source >>> highway and into a backwater. > >There's been a lot of discussion on this issue, about what should be >>done and what makes sense, and what's uncontrollable. > >>From what I read, LL's making a very smart move here. > >>1) They're going to be officially listing the legit third party viewers. >>2) They're going to ban those residents who create harmful viewers >>that break the ToS. > >>I mean, where's the problem? Did I read something wrong? > >>-Stickman > >_______________________________________________ >>Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: >http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev >>Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091020/aad28b3e/attachment.htm From zabb65 at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 17:24:48 2009 From: zabb65 at gmail.com (Zabb65) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:24:48 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> From mike.dickson at hp.com Tue Oct 20 17:42:46 2009 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Mike Dickson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:42:46 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256085766.2790.16.camel@mdickson-linux.local> The problem is its fixing the wrong place. Either the viewer is opensource or its not. If there are issues with the viewer exploiting content they need to be fixed at the protocol level. And yes, that's a hard, maybe even impossible problem to fix since the client sort of needs access to assets to render them. I suppose you could require some kind of code signing and use that to prove you're a sanctioned viewer. It wouldn't mean that viewer couldn't be used on OpenSim for example. But really, if you opensource a project you sort of lose the ability to dictate how its used. You don't get the benefits of the community development model without the loss of some control. Mike On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 23:44 +0000, Stickman wrote: > > This is likely to have a negative impact on interest in supporting the > > viewer at dev level. There is little point in working on something that you > > cannot use and test because access is denied. > > > > It's equivalent to a website allowing only specific builds of web browser to > > connect. With this move, you will drop right off the main open source > > highway and into a backwater. > > There's been a lot of discussion on this issue, about what should be > done and what makes sense, and what's uncontrollable. > > From what I read, LL's making a very smart move here. > > 1) They're going to be officially listing the legit third party viewers. > 2) They're going to ban those residents who create harmful viewers > that break the ToS. > > I mean, where's the problem? Did I read something wrong? > > -Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From GordonWendt at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 17:49:15 2009 From: GordonWendt at gmail.com (Gordon Wendt) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:49:15 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> I never got the email but from what was quoted in blog comments I too am concerned about LL essentially forbidding residents from using secure communication methods which seems exactly the opposite of what they should be encouraging. I think it may have been Zimmernan who said it first (although a lot of people mistakenly attribute it to Schneier) "If encryption is allowed only outlaws will have encryption) @Ann, I didn't mean to put words on your mouth but the first part of your first comment on the blog says a lot, if you want to continue this argument I'd be happy to continue off-list since as you said it's off-topic, you have my email address. -Gordon On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Zabb65 <zabb65 at gmail.com> wrote: > From the email I got, it sounds like the viewer they have the most > objections to, is Emerald. This bothers me in a few ways. > > First thing is I feel it will split development of group projects because > certain things won't make the "list". And will be deemed unacceptable, and > some developers will side with LL, some won't. > > Then you have inevitable policy. If your viewer is not on the list, you can > be banned for using it. This will drive people away from third party viewers > faster than you could ever imagine. It also eliminates the problem for them. > Its hard to ban viewers, its easy to ban users. > > The specific change that bothers me the most is that encrypted chat was > listed as an item that was against community standards or ToS. Chris Tuchs > spent the better part of an entire month implementing it and perfecting it > to the point it is at. I don't see any dev on the team jumping up and down > to remove it either. It's a very tightly coupled component and its only > purpose is to enhance privacy. If we don't remove it, we don't make the > registry, and if we are not on the registry they have reason to ban users of > it. You ban users, nobody will use the viewer out of fear. > > Effectively, they are creating a method to leash legitimate developers of > third party clients to conform to their exact wishes, that will not do > anything to deter content theft or griefing. It is only a way to better > justify banning users of third party clients. > > While I see it partially as a good idea, yes, I'd prefer we did not have a > thousand people running around stealing content or having griefing tools, > this isn't the way to do it. > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091020/ece58880/attachment.htm From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 18:05:27 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:05:27 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> isn't the ban on secure communications just a misunderstanding resulting from a couple of quotes taken out of context and put together in an specific order? From zabb65 at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 18:12:17 2009 From: zabb65 at gmail.com (Zabb65) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:12:17 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> I apologize for my originally harsh tone. I'm rather upset with how this is playing out. Emerald has nothing to do with the other two items listed for functionality that is at odds with their CS and/or ToS, and I don't support the other two items in any way. The quote from the email is as follows: "In the past we have been happy to allow development to proceed on all viewer projects, but recently some functionality has been developed that is at odds with our Community Standards<http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php>and Terms of Service <http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php>. Some of this functionality includes the ability to encrypt chat, copy content in violation of the creator?s intent, and collect user data without clear disclosure. To help our residents and viewer developers, we are creating a viewer registry that will allow developers to register viewers with us that comply with our guidelines and Terms of Service. Viewers that do not comply may not be registered." On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 21:05, Tigro Spottystripes < tigrospottystripes at gmail.com> wrote: > isn't the ban on secure communications just a misunderstanding resulting > from a couple of quotes taken out of context and put together in an > specific order? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091020/1cd2c895/attachment-0001.htm From GordonWendt at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 18:12:18 2009 From: GordonWendt at gmail.com (Gordon Wendt) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:12:18 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <493033a70910201812k3a541894je20e7b32d95736f7@mail.gmail.com> I'd hope so but I think we can't take these things for granted anymore, the residents may be paranoid when it comes to their relationship to LL but hasn't LL justified some of that paranoia? On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Tigro Spottystripes < tigrospottystripes at gmail.com> wrote: > isn't the ban on secure communications just a misunderstanding resulting > from a couple of quotes taken out of context and put together in an > specific order? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091020/ea53df78/attachment.htm From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 18:18:55 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:18:55 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADE617F.3010302@Gmail.com> if encrypted communication is banned, languages other than what LL staff can read, conversations with niche slangs and abbreviations, conversations about very technical matters, IM commands to bots LL doesn't have the source code etc would all also need to be banned Zabb65 escreveu: > I apologize for my originally harsh tone. I'm rather upset with how > this is playing out. Emerald has nothing to do with the other two > items listed for functionality that is at odds with their CS and/or > ToS, and I don't support the other two items in any way. > > The quote from the email is as follows: > "In the past we have been happy to allow development to proceed on all > viewer projects, but recently some functionality has been developed > that is at odds with our Community Standards > <http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php> and Terms of Service > <http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php>. Some of this functionality > includes the ability to encrypt chat, copy content in violation of the > creator?s intent, and collect user data without clear disclosure. To > help our residents and viewer developers, we are creating a viewer > registry that will allow developers to register viewers with us that > comply with our guidelines and Terms of Service. Viewers that do not > comply may not be registered." > > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 21:05, Tigro Spottystripes > <tigrospottystripes at gmail.com <mailto:tigrospottystripes at gmail.com>> > wrote: > > isn't the ban on secure communications just a misunderstanding > resulting > from a couple of quotes taken out of context and put together in an > specific order? > > From bishopj at bishopphillips.com Tue Oct 20 18:48:14 2009 From: bishopj at bishopphillips.com (Jonathan Bishop) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:48:14 +1100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADE617F.3010302@Gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com><e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com><b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com><f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com><7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com><493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com><4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com><7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE617F.3010302@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <E5BA0021EB294577B7D69719E0D3ED92@neptune.priv> I have just spent the last hour or two reading the blog on this topic. The quality of the discussion is so completely uninformed from essentially a few people that are being allowed to monopolize the comment threads that it is almost dysfunctional. So I am going to comment here where at least people with some idea of what the issues are will see it. I see a clear benefit of having a list of SL browsers that are "recognized by LL" to be, say, well behaved, not likely to steal the user's account details, or intentionally corrupt their machine, or duplicate their content and email it to the chattering masses. But that is where it stops. The idea that a registration system should (or even could) be devised that forces each browser to be pre-approved before accessing SL would e3ffectively halt OS development and defeat the a key purpose of OS'ing the code in the first place. Why? Firstly, because the development life cycle is to test the thing being developed under real world load and conditions. Something that can only be done on the grid - until the server code is OS'd as well. Secondly, a key advantage of OS is the flux in the development and product pool: the ability to pursue many similar paths across many teams concurrently so that innovation occurs and gradually the better, more useful solutions emerge. The whole point is a lack of stability across the entire development tree but stability within each branch and trunk. Once registration and authorization is mandatory the branches cease to stray from the trunk. Thirdly, the cost in time and resources for LL to code verify every candidate browser would defeat the economic benefit of LL outsourcing it in the first place, and the diversion of resources from server enhancement, and key feature innovation would increase the risk of a competitor duplicating and catching up to the SL solution. They would be better scrapping the OS browser's all together. Fourthly, it is too late. The key information about how everything works is already "out of the bag", so any attempt to close it without massively changing the server interface would be ineffective. Fifthly, the suggestion made by some on the list that a binary hash code could be used to verify the integrity of the browser version connecting (a-la-unix code version verification) ignores the fact that (a) the browser can report any number it likes to the hash request, and even if that could be avoided, no one can stop me writing an injection dll and hooking directly to the winproc, the ports, dynamically replacing procedure calls or wrapping the OpenGL dll or the win32 dll, or any one of a dozen other ways I can inject my own library into an otherwise legitimate app - that will continue to report the hashcode correctly, once it has loaded. Anyone who doubts me and has a Logitech camera attached to the computer - take a look in the windows temp folder for a dll called Lvprcinj***.dll - that is the Logitech injection dll that ensures the camera can always function regardless of what is running. I think a registry is a good idea to protect non-programmers who want to download an alternate viewer in safety. Beyond that - for example as an enforcement tool - it is a waste of valuable resources. And yes, I am a content developer who wishes copybot (et al) did not exist, but I would not for a moment claim the world should be made "safer" by tieing the thumbs of the browser developers. As someone who essentially uses the LL viewer, I have no personal position to protect with respect to the OS browsers - but I 100% support what is being done by the OS developers, and am very concerned that the predominant tone of the comments in the blog thread is dangerously uninformed, self interested, destructive and simply technically wrong. Regards Jonathan Bishop From partners at scifipc.com Tue Oct 20 19:25:58 2009 From: partners at scifipc.com (Science Fiction Computer - SCi-Fi PC) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:25:58 +1000 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy - Viewer Reg doesn't defeat the purpose of OS'ing. In-Reply-To: <E5BA0021EB294577B7D69719E0D3ED92@neptune.priv> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com><e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com><b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com><f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com><7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com><493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com><4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com><7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE617F.3010302@Gmail.com> <E5BA0021EB294577B7D69719E0D3ED92@neptune.priv> Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAzGtI7bNUdAgwPnHWv5WSLCgAAAEAAAAMgpsX5CajhLplSR3cBaNVQBAAAAAA==@scifipc.com> RE: John Bishop SUBJ: Viewer Reg doesn't defeat the purpose of OS'ing. A LL a registration system does not defeat the purpose of open sourcing at all, as viewer code released to date under GPL is still free in future to be applied in connection with on other grids for the experimentation or development of new features and functionality. The simple fact remains that LL server side code remains proprietary and LL reserves the right to determine who connects to the SL Grid in the interests of all users and the greater functioning economy. There are positive benefits that may come from this process if the registration system results in an official and improved dialogue channel available between Third Party Developers and Linden Lab. DMC Zsigmond -----Original Message----- From: sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Bishop Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 11:48 AM To: 'Second Life Developer Mailing List' Subject: Re: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com I have just spent the last hour or two reading the blog on this topic. The quality of the discussion is so completely uninformed from essentially a few people that are being allowed to monopolize the comment threads that it is almost dysfunctional. So I am going to comment here where at least people with some idea of what the issues are will see it. I see a clear benefit of having a list of SL browsers that are "recognized by LL" to be, say, well behaved, not likely to steal the user's account details, or intentionally corrupt their machine, or duplicate their content and email it to the chattering masses. But that is where it stops. The idea that a registration system should (or even could) be devised that forces each browser to be pre-approved before accessing SL would e3ffectively halt OS development and defeat the a key purpose of OS'ing the code in the first place. Why? Firstly, because the development life cycle is to test the thing being developed under real world load and conditions. Something that can only be done on the grid - until the server code is OS'd as well. Secondly, a key advantage of OS is the flux in the development and product pool: the ability to pursue many similar paths across many teams concurrently so that innovation occurs and gradually the better, more useful solutions emerge. The whole point is a lack of stability across the entire development tree but stability within each branch and trunk. Once registration and authorization is mandatory the branches cease to stray from the trunk. Thirdly, the cost in time and resources for LL to code verify every candidate browser would defeat the economic benefit of LL outsourcing it in the first place, and the diversion of resources from server enhancement, and key feature innovation would increase the risk of a competitor duplicating and catching up to the SL solution. They would be better scrapping the OS browser's all together. Fourthly, it is too late. The key information about how everything works is already "out of the bag", so any attempt to close it without massively changing the server interface would be ineffective. Fifthly, the suggestion made by some on the list that a binary hash code could be used to verify the integrity of the browser version connecting (a-la-unix code version verification) ignores the fact that (a) the browser can report any number it likes to the hash request, and even if that could be avoided, no one can stop me writing an injection dll and hooking directly to the winproc, the ports, dynamically replacing procedure calls or wrapping the OpenGL dll or the win32 dll, or any one of a dozen other ways I can inject my own library into an otherwise legitimate app - that will continue to report the hashcode correctly, once it has loaded. Anyone who doubts me and has a Logitech camera attached to the computer - take a look in the windows temp folder for a dll called Lvprcinj***.dll - that is the Logitech injection dll that ensures the camera can always function regardless of what is running. I think a registry is a good idea to protect non-programmers who want to download an alternate viewer in safety. Beyond that - for example as an enforcement tool - it is a waste of valuable resources. And yes, I am a content developer who wishes copybot (et al) did not exist, but I would not for a moment claim the world should be made "safer" by tieing the thumbs of the browser developers. As someone who essentially uses the LL viewer, I have no personal position to protect with respect to the OS browsers - but I 100% support what is being done by the OS developers, and am very concerned that the predominant tone of the comments in the blog thread is dangerously uninformed, self interested, destructive and simply technically wrong. Regards Jonathan Bishop _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.24/2449 - Release Date: 10/20/09 18:42:00 From partners at scifipc.com Tue Oct 20 19:28:20 2009 From: partners at scifipc.com (Science Fiction Computer - SCi-Fi PC) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:28:20 +1000 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy - Viewer Reg doesn't defeat the purpose of OS'ing. In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAzGtI7bNUdAgwPnHWv5WSLCgAAAEAAAAMgpsX5CajhLplSR3cBaNVQBAAAAAA==@scifipc.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com><e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com><b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com><f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com><7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com><493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com><4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com><7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE617F.3010302@Gmail.com> <E5BA0021EB294577B7D69719E0D3ED92@neptune.priv> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAzGtI7bNUdAgwPnHWv5WSLCgAAAEAAAAMgpsX5CajhLplSR3cBaNVQBAAAAAA==@scifipc.com> Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAzGtI7bNUdAgwPnHWv5WSLCgAAAEAAAAP/0aqSxUx1LjRsY0KY1GFYBAAAAAA==@scifipc.com> Respectfully, Jonathan DMC ;) -----Original Message----- From: sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Science Fiction Computer - SCi-Fi PC Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:26 PM To: 'Jonathan Bishop'; 'Second Life Developer Mailing List' Subject: Re: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy - Viewer Reg doesn't defeat the purpose of OS'ing. RE: Jonathan Bishop SUBJ: Viewer Reg doesn't defeat the purpose of OS'ing. A LL a registration system does not defeat the purpose of open sourcing at all, as viewer code released to date under GPL is still free in future to be applied in connection with on other grids for the experimentation or development of new features and functionality. The simple fact remains that LL server side code remains proprietary and LL reserves the right to determine who connects to the SL Grid in the interests of all users and the greater functioning economy. There are positive benefits that may come from this process if the registration system results in an official and improved dialogue channel available between Third Party Developers and Linden Lab. DMC Zsigmond -----Original Message----- From: sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Bishop Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 11:48 AM To: 'Second Life Developer Mailing List' Subject: Re: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com I have just spent the last hour or two reading the blog on this topic. The quality of the discussion is so completely uninformed from essentially a few people that are being allowed to monopolize the comment threads that it is almost dysfunctional. So I am going to comment here where at least people with some idea of what the issues are will see it. I see a clear benefit of having a list of SL browsers that are "recognized by LL" to be, say, well behaved, not likely to steal the user's account details, or intentionally corrupt their machine, or duplicate their content and email it to the chattering masses. But that is where it stops. The idea that a registration system should (or even could) be devised that forces each browser to be pre-approved before accessing SL would e3ffectively halt OS development and defeat the a key purpose of OS'ing the code in the first place. Why? Firstly, because the development life cycle is to test the thing being developed under real world load and conditions. Something that can only be done on the grid - until the server code is OS'd as well. Secondly, a key advantage of OS is the flux in the development and product pool: the ability to pursue many similar paths across many teams concurrently so that innovation occurs and gradually the better, more useful solutions emerge. The whole point is a lack of stability across the entire development tree but stability within each branch and trunk. Once registration and authorization is mandatory the branches cease to stray from the trunk. Thirdly, the cost in time and resources for LL to code verify every candidate browser would defeat the economic benefit of LL outsourcing it in the first place, and the diversion of resources from server enhancement, and key feature innovation would increase the risk of a competitor duplicating and catching up to the SL solution. They would be better scrapping the OS browser's all together. Fourthly, it is too late. The key information about how everything works is already "out of the bag", so any attempt to close it without massively changing the server interface would be ineffective. Fifthly, the suggestion made by some on the list that a binary hash code could be used to verify the integrity of the browser version connecting (a-la-unix code version verification) ignores the fact that (a) the browser can report any number it likes to the hash request, and even if that could be avoided, no one can stop me writing an injection dll and hooking directly to the winproc, the ports, dynamically replacing procedure calls or wrapping the OpenGL dll or the win32 dll, or any one of a dozen other ways I can inject my own library into an otherwise legitimate app - that will continue to report the hashcode correctly, once it has loaded. Anyone who doubts me and has a Logitech camera attached to the computer - take a look in the windows temp folder for a dll called Lvprcinj***.dll - that is the Logitech injection dll that ensures the camera can always function regardless of what is running. I think a registry is a good idea to protect non-programmers who want to download an alternate viewer in safety. Beyond that - for example as an enforcement tool - it is a waste of valuable resources. And yes, I am a content developer who wishes copybot (et al) did not exist, but I would not for a moment claim the world should be made "safer" by tieing the thumbs of the browser developers. As someone who essentially uses the LL viewer, I have no personal position to protect with respect to the OS browsers - but I 100% support what is being done by the OS developers, and am very concerned that the predominant tone of the comments in the blog thread is dangerously uninformed, self interested, destructive and simply technically wrong. Regards Jonathan Bishop _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.24/2449 - Release Date: 10/20/09 18:42:00 _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.24/2449 - Release Date: 10/20/09 18:42:00 From snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com Tue Oct 20 19:53:25 2009 From: snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com (Maya Remblai) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:53:25 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADE77A5.1040601@dragonkeepcreations.com> From what I can see, I think at least some of the people who don't like the idea, don't like it because of LL's track record. That's why *I'm* not terribly excited one way or the other, anyway. Yes, a list of "safe" viewers is a good idea, as is banning people who do things against the ToS. What's not good is the very high potential for such a thing to be handled badly, such as banning an innocent user whose viewer gets targeted unfairly, such as in the case of a bad viewer spoofing itself as a good one, leading to the good one getting black listed. In the past, LL has not been very good at handling such serious and delicate matters (traffic bots, gambling, sexual ageplay, and other banned things are still around, for instance), so a lot of people are cynical about future improvement. Maya Stickman wrote: > There's been a lot of discussion on this issue, about what should be > done and what makes sense, and what's uncontrollable. > > >From what I read, LL's making a very smart move here. > > 1) They're going to be officially listing the legit third party viewers. > 2) They're going to ban those residents who create harmful viewers > that break the ToS. > > I mean, where's the problem? Did I read something wrong? > > -Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > From robla at lindenlab.com Tue Oct 20 21:34:51 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:34:51 -0700 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone, It's great that we're having a conversation here, but it's really important that you also post your thoughts on the forum as well. If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. Posting here is almost by definition preaching to the choir. As you discuss this topic, it'll be most effective to be clear, cheerful, inclusive, and humble. Rob On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'd like to make sure you all see the announcement of the upcoming 3rd > party viewer policy: > > https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy > > Followups need to be directed to the forum: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/3731 > > ....since many people involved in crafting the new policy are not on this > mailing list, but will be monitoring that forum. > > Thanks > Rob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091020/ec2c5b35/attachment.htm From lists.secondlife.com at trap.wereanimal.net Tue Oct 20 22:10:41 2009 From: lists.secondlife.com at trap.wereanimal.net (lists.secondlife.com at trap.wereanimal.net) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:10:41 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200910210110.42212.lists.secondlife.com@trap.wereanimal.net> On Tuesday 20 October 2009 9:12:17 pm Zabb65 wrote: > > The quote from the email is as follows: > "In the past we have been happy to allow development to proceed on all > viewer projects, but recently some functionality has been developed that is > at odds with our Community > Standards<http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php>and Terms > of Service <http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php>. Some of this > functionality includes the ability to encrypt chat, copy content in > violation of the creator?s intent, and collect user data without clear > disclosure. To help our residents and viewer developers, we are creating a > viewer registry that will allow developers to register viewers with us that > comply with our guidelines and Terms of Service. Viewers that do not > comply may not be registered." > The main push for this is due to third party clients are starting to embarrass LL at a major level now. Examples are: More attachment points. Client side AO system. And more. The above was requested for many years by residents. This is really embarrassing LL corporate folks and they probably decided to put a stop to it. From ardylay at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 23:26:51 2009 From: ardylay at gmail.com (Ardy Lay) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:26:51 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com Message-ID: <4ADEA9AB.8040100@gmail.com> Oct 20, 2009 7:26 PM in response to: Blondin Linden Re: Discussion: Third Party Viewer Policy Seems to me you can use a little help. Third party Second Life Client Registration should be used to inspect client software before recommending it to Second Life residents. It should be a certification that the recommended software is safe to use and will not stop the Resident that uses it from qualifying for account support. No amount of inspecting and certifying of Second Life Client software will change the characteristics of the protocols used by the Second Life Servers. It is my understanding that all one needs to view and subsequently copy data from Second Life, the virtual world, it's database servers and other networked services, is a working Second Life user account. I gain this understanding by living in Second Life myself, building my own Second Life Client binaries from Linden Lab's public SVN repository, and testing patches provided by other residents via pJIRA, after reviewing them myself. The protocol is fairly well documented now and many programmers can write their own client libraries or modify an existing code base to bypass any of the methods that can be used in the client to prevent it from saving copies. Thus, I don't see Second Life Client software registration as an assurance to content creators, of which I am not, that their content will not be compromised by other Second Life Residents. The only way I see to deal with the current concerns of uncontrolled Second Life content propagation is to assure that all holders of working Second Life user accounts can be and are being held responsible for their actions. Notice that I say holders, not accounts. As long as throw-away accounts can be created anonymously, the content theft and propagation issue will continue. I don't see the act of having open-sourced the Second Life Client as the cause of the problems we are discussing here. I see the penchant of some individuals to conduct nefarious activities as the problem. Giving them the tools to cause grief has made things easy for them but letting them have unlimited anonymous accounts has made it possible. From pixelgirls at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 23:53:21 2009 From: pixelgirls at gmail.com (Lilly) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:53:21 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F0F738E-3AD4-458F-92AB-D5C5BDE2E77E@gmail.com> (Sorry Rob for the previous message, I forgot to click on "reply to all") This is too bad this forum thread is almost a joke. The only Linden posts are to agree with the most opposed to an open source viewer & 3rd party work. Nothing on the OSS community point of view. Le 20 oct. 09 ? 19:25, Rob Lanphier a ?crit : > Hi folks, > > I'd like to make sure you all see the announcement of the upcoming > 3rd party viewer policy: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy > > Followups need to be directed to the forum: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/3731 > > ....since many people involved in crafting the new policy are not on > this mailing list, but will be monitoring that forum. > > Thanks > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges Lilly pixelgirls at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/5bb15e29/attachment.htm From GordonWendt at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 00:15:08 2009 From: GordonWendt at gmail.com (Gordon Wendt) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:15:08 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4F0F738E-3AD4-458F-92AB-D5C5BDE2E77E@gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <4F0F738E-3AD4-458F-92AB-D5C5BDE2E77E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <493033a70910210015v18bbece8xf96c9895dfd12e2e@mail.gmail.com> I have to agree, having a dialogue that's geared to everyone is all well and good but sldev is still a good tool to get a more focused point of view from developers without all the noise that you get from the wider discusion. That's not to say that not anyone can participate here, this is an open list but you generally get a different more specifically focused group here. -Gordon On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Lilly <pixelgirls at gmail.com> wrote: > (Sorry Rob for the previous message, I forgot to click on "reply to all") > This is too bad this forum thread is almost a joke. The only Linden posts > are to agree with the most opposed to an open source viewer & 3rd party > work. > > Nothing on the OSS community point of view. > > Le 20 oct. 09 ? 19:25, Rob Lanphier a ?crit : > > Hi folks, > > I'd like to make sure you all see the announcement of the upcoming 3rd > party viewer policy: > > https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy > > Followups need to be directed to the forum: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/3731 > > ....since many people involved in crafting the new policy are not on this > mailing list, but will be monitoring that forum. > > Thanks > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > > > Lilly > pixelgirls at gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/9672d4bc/attachment.htm From morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com Wed Oct 21 00:44:57 2009 From: morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com (Morgaine) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:44:57 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <e0b04bba0910210044v6300753cgd3f28d70b80e8282@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > it's really important that you also post your thoughts on the forum as > well. If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you > should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. Rob, could you perhaps explain to us *WHY* you believe that we should do this, please? I've already posted a blog response because it was recommended that we do so in AW Groupies channel, but there's a lot being left unsaid here, and really, I had no idea for whose benefit I was writing nor why. Working in the dark is not the open source way, nor is it an effective way of approaching problems. What is the purpose of replying to this post of Cyn's? Who are we trying to convince, and of what? Trying to understand what's going on there without more information creates more questions than it answers: - Is feedback on the blog being used to weigh resident opinion on the issue? If so, this is *predestined* to be a vote *against* open source and in favour of the Luddites and content protectionists who are very highly represented and highly vocal. The open source community has a relatively small representation among residents, so to appeal to the blog vote is effectively to accept guaranteed failure of open source interests. - Alternatively, is feedback on the blog intended to sway those Luddites and protectionists towards the open source worldview through clear, calm and reasoned argument? If so, you should know by now that that's a fruitless exercise because the necessary preconditions are lacking: listening, understanding logic, and being willing to learn about the technology. That's going nowhere --- we've been trying to do this for at least 5 years, unsuccessfully, and we're not going to succeed now on the blog. No, not even by being "humble". ;-) - If feedback on the blog is indeed being used to weigh opinion, then who is doing the weighing, and why isn't the might of Linden developers sufficient to hold back the Forces of Darkness internally? If you can't do so internally, then the far sparser FOSS population among residents certainly won't achieve it. Quite the opposite --- it's *asking* for failure to seek a vote on a technical matter from a mostly non-technical public. - If this is the publicly visible tip of an internal battle against Linden open source fans, then we can't fight it blindfold. I suggest that some light be shone on the Lindens doing the damage. Residents don't have much power in affecting the outcome of this, but we can certainly make our feelings felt at the many Office Hours. (Does Cyn's team lead policy on this issue, or is it just PR machinery representing another team's unpalatable decisions?) - If there is no internal battle then of course all this is just a PR exercise and you've already decided internally to redefine the meaning of "open source viewer" to something much less open. That's your prerogative of course, but if so then please come clean on it. Community developers can then re-evaluate whether helping a company that is becoming less open makes sense, or whether they should contribute somewhere else where they are more welcome. - <general sense of confusion> There are probably another dozen relevant questions, but you probably get the message already. We don't know what's going on here, and the indications are that it's not going to work out well this way. Please help us understand the forces at play here, or we are powerless to help. Regards, :-) Morgaine. ============================================== On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > It's great that we're having a conversation here, but it's really important > that you also post your thoughts on the forum as well. If you disagree with > what is being said there, the last thing you should do is cede the venue to > those you disagree with. Posting here is almost by definition preaching to > the choir. > > As you discuss this topic, it'll be most effective to be clear, cheerful, > inclusive, and humble. > > Rob > > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com>wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> I'd like to make sure you all see the announcement of the upcoming 3rd >> party viewer policy: >> >> https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy >> >> Followups need to be directed to the forum: >> https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/3731 >> >> ....since many people involved in crafting the new policy are not on this >> mailing list, but will be monitoring that forum. >> >> Thanks >> Rob >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/df355b71/attachment-0001.htm From Anders at Arnholm.se Wed Oct 21 02:39:22 2009 From: Anders at Arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:39:22 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091021093922.GW17454@arnholm.se> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 09:12:17PM -0400, Zabb65 wrote: > I apologize for my originally harsh tone. I'm rather upset with how this is > playing out. Emerald has nothing to do with the other two items listed > for functionality that is at odds with their CS and/or ToS, and I > don't support the other two items in any way. > > The quote from the email is as follows: > "In the past we have been happy to allow development to proceed on all > viewer projects, but recently some functionality has been developed > that is at odds with our Community Standards and Terms of Service.? > Some of this functionality includes the ability to encrypt chat, copy > content in violation of the creator?s intent, and collect user data > without clear disclosure. ?To help our residents and viewer > developers, we are creating a viewer registry that will allow > developers to register viewers with us that comply with our guidelines > and Terms of Service. ?Viewers that do not comply may not be > registered." If encryptions is banned LL can give up the idea of being accepted as a tool for serius work. Any work done for my company or a client of it have to be protected from interception by a thirdparty listener. This includes Linden Labs. For example in a public company there is laws requieing that information that could be used my the market are not published just to some people, it have to be given to the public in a controlled and tracabe way. Talk about new pruducts, new clients. All fall into this category. I hope this idea is droped really soon. -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/55bf53c2/attachment.pgp From secret.argent at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 04:26:37 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 06:26:37 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> On 2009-10-20, at 19:24, Ann Otoole wrote: > Why are people so worried? Is there a problem with having to > register like so many suggest content creators be "in good > standing" (registered)? People are worried about having to jump through some kind of code signing hoops every time they want to test a one line change. From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 04:35:50 2009 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:35:50 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> Message-ID: <c4db5c50910210435h5b0c0dc7l9b3acc0f034cfb13@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Argent Stonecutter <secret.argent at gmail.com> wrote: > On 2009-10-20, at 19:24, Ann Otoole wrote: >> Why are people so worried? Is there a problem with having to >> register like so many suggest content creators be "in good >> standing" (registered)? > > People are worried about having to jump through some kind of code > signing hoops every time they want to test a one line change. I'm not _only_ worried about that, but also worried and commented on the blog, that this is easily forged, so a malicious viewer could pretend to be some other 3rd party viewer and get them banned/their viewer banned. This kind of authentication relies on "some kind" of secret being distributed with a viewer so the secret would be hackable out of the good viewers code for use by the bad viewer, or even directly taken out of the binary or sniffed on the wire. The closest this type of security (shared private key) has to working is when the secret is embedded in security ASICs and even this is not completely secure. From secret.argent at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 04:43:23 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 06:43:23 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADEA9AB.8040100@gmail.com> References: <4ADEA9AB.8040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <F9335AC0-E8D2-4531-81DF-8E15A9829971@gmail.com> On 2009-10-21, at 01:26, Ardy Lay wrote: > The only way I see to deal with the current concerns of uncontrolled > Second Life content propagation is to assure that all holders of > working > Second Life user accounts can be and are being held responsible for > their actions. Notice that I say holders, not accounts. As long as > throw-away accounts can be created anonymously, the content theft and > propagation issue will continue. I don't see the act of having > open-sourced the Second Life Client as the cause of the problems we > are > discussing here. I see the penchant of some individuals to conduct > nefarious activities as the problem. Giving them the tools to cause > grief has made things easy for them but letting them have unlimited > anonymous accounts has made it possible. This. And MISC-2222. From domino at dominodesigns.info Wed Oct 21 05:42:05 2009 From: domino at dominodesigns.info (Domino Marama) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:42:05 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <F9335AC0-E8D2-4531-81DF-8E15A9829971@gmail.com> References: <4ADEA9AB.8040100@gmail.com> <F9335AC0-E8D2-4531-81DF-8E15A9829971@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256128925.17616.20.camel@domino-laptop> Avoiding making the ultimate copybot is one of the problems I face with Primstar. With the Primstar scripts written in Python, any attempts at content security with direct login options would be trivially bypassed. So far I've just avoided the issue by not adding direct login support to the scripts for either building or export to Blender despite how useful they would be. The only option I can see which would balance my needs as a "build only viewer" developer and content security issues is if there was an alternative login / api option which would only supply the content that I was allowed to take offline for editing. That way implementing content security in such a tool becomes trivial rather than showstoppingly impossible. Bypassing the security would become non-trivial as the core api calls would be different in the server to client communications. From gigstaggart at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 05:58:26 2009 From: gigstaggart at gmail.com (Gigs) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:58:26 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <1256128925.17616.20.camel@domino-laptop> References: <4ADEA9AB.8040100@gmail.com> <F9335AC0-E8D2-4531-81DF-8E15A9829971@gmail.com> <1256128925.17616.20.camel@domino-laptop> Message-ID: <4ADF0572.3040704@gmail.com> Domino Marama wrote: > The only option I can see which would balance my needs as a "build only > viewer" developer and content security issues is if there was an > alternative login / api option which would only supply the content that > I was allowed to take offline for editing. There's an RFC about this: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3514 From lear.cale at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 06:39:06 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:39:06 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <c4db5c50910210435h5b0c0dc7l9b3acc0f034cfb13@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <c4db5c50910210435h5b0c0dc7l9b3acc0f034cfb13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <e8fbde8c0910210639lcffc7baj4ac4257ab24e3333@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Robin Cornelius <robin.cornelius at gmail.com>wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Argent Stonecutter > <secret.argent at gmail.com> wrote: > > People are worried about having to jump through some kind of code > > signing hoops every time they want to test a one line change. > I'm not _only_ worried about that, but also worried and commented on > the blog, that this is easily forged, so a malicious viewer could > pretend to be some other 3rd party viewer and get them banned/their > viewer banned. This kind of authentication relies on "some kind" of > secret being distributed with a viewer so the secret would be hackable > out of the good viewers code for use by the bad viewer, or even > directly taken out of the binary or sniffed on the wire. > > The closest this type of security (shared private key) has to working > is when the secret is embedded in security ASICs and even this is not > completely secure. Right -- there are really two issues here: 1) Is it technically feasible at all? 2) If it is, can we do it in a way that doesn't kill the open source development/test cycle? Until I hear a good answer for item #1, the rest is noise. Lear -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/6d944c70/attachment.htm From lear.cale at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 06:39:56 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:39:56 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> Message-ID: <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Argent Stonecutter <secret.argent at gmail.com > wrote: > On 2009-10-20, at 19:24, Ann Otoole wrote: > > Why are people so worried? Is there a problem with having to > > register like so many suggest content creators be "in good > > standing" (registered)? > > People are worried about having to jump through some kind of code > signing hoops every time they want to test a one line change. I agree, but I believe there's a solution to this. LL could provide a mechanism for developers to register, so that a test client can automatically get a temporary registration. Trust the people, not the software. Someone who tests using multiple avatars would need to register each of those avatars. IMHO, the real problem is finding a verification mechanism that raises the bar high enough to be worth the effort. We need to emphasize with LL that a solution that impedes client development is not acceptable, and help them work out a scheme that doesn't do so. Lear -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/45eea6d4/attachment.htm From mike.dickson at hp.com Wed Oct 21 07:06:22 2009 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Mike Dickson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:06:22 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256133982.12195.8.camel@mdickson-linux.local> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 13:39 +0000, Lear Cale wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Argent Stonecutter > <secret.argent at gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree, but I believe there's a solution to this. LL could provide a > mechanism for developers to register, so that a test client can > automatically get a temporary registration. Trust the people, not the > software. Someone who tests using multiple avatars would need to > register each of those avatars. That seems pretty awkward. Think of how many registered versions would have to be tracked and how you might need to handle revocation lists. Code signing would seem to be a solution except that it's not binaries being sent around it's data. I can see how you could do it with encryption of the data but that seems to be one of the triggers that caused the concern in the first place. Personally I'd like more information from LL on the *intent* of the proposed change. Is it to protect content creators, control the user experience (the horse is out and the gate already open on that one), etc.. Once the intent is understood it's possible folks on the list could proactively propose solutions to the "problem." Mike From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 07:13:25 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:13:25 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> How about somthing lke this, people who LL trust to make good viewers get a key to sign their binaries, the source code as it has been pointed out already is tooo pliable to be trusted. Viewers that got the LL signature are viewers that were copiled into binary by people LL trusts. This wouldn't make any difference in regards to avoiding malicious viewers illegally reproducing data, but it would serve to help users avoid malicious binaries that would harm them. There should be a simple way to check if the binary is signed with an authroized LL key that hasn't been revoked yet, so people would easilly verify the authenticity of whatever viewer they download. The exact requirements to receive a LL key should be discussed separately, this proposal is just about the underlying system for the "registry of LL trusted viewers" thing The actual grid servers wouldn't need to know anything about this, it's just about keeping the user safe when choosing viewers. But the servers might be involved in the verification proccess, as well as being made aware of the status of viewers, so for example, people could only allow LL signed viewers on their sim, or even an additional bit of data for assets that tells the server to only send that asset to LL signed viewers. Of course we can't expect all the people LL trusts with keys to forever manage to maintain them secret, so keys can be revoked, and with specific keys for each trusted developers, simply don't send a new key to the developer that leaked their key when renewing keys after the revocation (with a decent legal system so people can resort in case they believe they've been unfairly accused of not being trustworthy) Since this isn't somthing that needs to happen in real time and stuff, use a key size so big that not even quantum computers can break with bruteforce before the heat death of the universe . Of course there is still the issue of something external to the viewer running in paralell, or with a man-inthe-middle attack snatching the data that was server tot he trusted viewer, there isn't a solution for that, we don't need to think about it. It's like that saying "You can do somthing about it? Then there is no point worrying.You cannot do anything about it? Then there is no point worrying" (I can't rememebr the exact words, but that's the general idea) From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 07:14:47 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:14:47 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADF1757.8050006@Gmail.com> Oh, and use a Question/Reply thing like how they do it with GSM chips to avoid a repetition attack Tigro Spottystripes escreveu: > How about somthing lke this, people who LL trust to make good viewers > get a key to sign their binaries, the source code as it has been > pointed out already is tooo pliable to be trusted. Viewers that got the > LL signature are viewers that were copiled into binary by people LL trusts. > > > This wouldn't make any difference in regards to avoiding malicious > viewers illegally reproducing data, but it would serve to help users > avoid malicious binaries that would harm them. > > > There should be a simple way to check if the binary is signed with an > authroized LL key that hasn't been revoked yet, so people would easilly > verify the authenticity of whatever viewer they download. > > > The exact requirements to receive a LL key should be discussed > separately, this proposal is just about the underlying system for the > "registry of LL trusted viewers" thing > > The actual grid servers wouldn't need to know anything about this, it's > just about keeping the user safe when choosing viewers. But the servers > might be involved in the verification proccess, as well as being made > aware of the status of viewers, so for example, people could only allow > LL signed viewers on their sim, or even an additional bit of data for > assets that tells the server to only send that asset to LL signed viewers. > > > Of course we can't expect all the people LL trusts with keys to forever > manage to maintain them secret, so keys can be revoked, and with > specific keys for each trusted developers, simply don't send a new key > to the developer that leaked their key when renewing keys after the > revocation (with a decent legal system so people can resort in case they > believe they've been unfairly accused of not being trustworthy) > > > > Since this isn't somthing that needs to happen in real time and stuff, > use a key size so big that not even quantum computers can break with > bruteforce before the heat death of the universe > . > > > Of course there is still the issue of something external to the viewer > running in paralell, or with a man-inthe-middle attack snatching the > data that was server tot he trusted viewer, there isn't a solution for > that, we don't need to think about it. It's like that saying "You can do > somthing about it? Then there is no point worrying.You cannot do > anything about it? Then there is no point worrying" (I can't rememebr > the exact words, but that's the general idea) > From Anders at Arnholm.se Wed Oct 21 07:52:10 2009 From: Anders at Arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:52:10 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <e8fbde8c0910210639lcffc7baj4ac4257ab24e3333@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <c4db5c50910210435h5b0c0dc7l9b3acc0f034cfb13@mail.gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639lcffc7baj4ac4257ab24e3333@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091021145210.GX17454@arnholm.se> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 09:39:06AM -0400, Lear Cale wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Robin Cornelius <robin.cornelius at gmail.com> > wrote: > > The closest this type of security (shared private key) has to working > is when the secret is embedded in security ASICs and even this is not > completely secure. > > Right -- there are really two issues here: > > 1) Is it technically feasible at all? The short answer is No... So many times have why been tried to explanined to the "Content Creators"(*) i sometimes think it's time to requext them needing to handeld before that cause more damage. > Until I hear a good answer for item #1, the rest is noise. There is a good answer on Item #1, some people refuse to accept this as the answer is nopt what they like to hear. Then they start to find other variants of item #1 to make an effort to make something: (*) With content creators here i mean the small vocal group, that could be exemplified by the once in court case with LL for not inveting magic. -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/85054b21/attachment.pgp From Anders at Arnholm.se Wed Oct 21 08:03:16 2009 From: Anders at Arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:03:16 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> The big problem is whan you send your viewer out, if it should be in any whay possible to send data to the server "HEY I'm the good viewer from Balp. My secret is, ALLEN" The users computer have to get the secret, The minute the user have the secret oin there own computer that can extraxt it. Put in into there own what ever to tell the servers "HEY I'm the good viewer from Balp. My secret is, ALLEN". This will make any try to use this for any identifications on the LL side impossible. A signed key for the developer could thou with great success be used to give the user information that LL have some agreement with the person creating this viewer. So as a system to help users choose good viewer thisn could help. Maybe it could help to fucos development of some viewers into makeing features LL don't like adjusted. For the key handeling there is already a great system called PGP, sadly users are to bad educated to use pgp-signatures to verify the downloads. On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:13:25PM -0200, Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > How about somthing lke this, people who LL trust to make good viewers > get a key to sign their binaries, the source code as it has been > pointed out already is tooo pliable to be trusted. Viewers that got the > LL signature are viewers that were copiled into binary by people LL trusts. -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/d881450a/attachment.pgp From mike.dickson at hp.com Wed Oct 21 08:14:37 2009 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Mike Dickson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:14:37 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> Message-ID: <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:03 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: > The big problem is whan you send your viewer out, if it should be in any > whay possible to send data to the server "HEY I'm the good viewer from > Balp. My secret is, ALLEN" The users computer have to get the secret, > The minute the user have the secret oin there own computer that can > extraxt it. Put in into there own what ever to tell the servers "HEY > I'm the good viewer from Balp. My secret is, ALLEN". This will make any > try to use this for any identifications on the LL side impossible. Right, code signing could tell a *user* the original source of the viewer but can't in any way that I know be used to identify over the wire that the viewer is valid in a way thats not spoofable. Perhaps if the focus is making content creators happy that's enough. Though I don't see a mechanism here for LL to enforce attempts to grief or steal content using a specific viewer. Mike From shack at liferain.com Wed Oct 21 08:19:44 2009 From: shack at liferain.com (Shack Dougall) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:19:44 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <1256128925.17616.20.camel@domino-laptop> References: <4ADEA9AB.8040100@gmail.com> <F9335AC0-E8D2-4531-81DF-8E15A9829971@gmail.com> <1256128925.17616.20.camel@domino-laptop> Message-ID: <4ADF2690.2080102@liferain.com> Domino Marama wrote: > Avoiding making the ultimate copybot is one of the problems I face with > Primstar. With the Primstar scripts written in Python, any attempts at > content security with direct login options would be trivially bypassed. > Coming from a similar perspective as Domino, I'd just like to point out that the issue is larger than just viewers; it also affects libopenmetaverse-based bots. There is a similar thread developing on the libsl-dev mailing list, but so far the reaction has been much less concerned than the discussion here on sldev. I'm not sure if that means anything, but it is interesting. From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 08:23:21 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:23:21 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> Message-ID: <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> the secret isn't "ALLEN", the secrent is some sort of formula tha twill give an answer to a question, no matter what the question, on eahc check the question is different and the asnwer is different, but if both sides are using the same formular, the side that asked the question will see the answer it is expecting. It's how GSM chip identification works, you can't sniff the radio waves to figure out how to clone a chip, the questions and answers always change. The secret formula might as well be somthing along the lines of a one time pad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad Mike Dickson escreveu: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:03 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: > >> The big problem is whan you send your viewer out, if it should be in any >> whay possible to send data to the server "HEY I'm the good viewer from >> Balp. My secret is, ALLEN" The users computer have to get the secret, >> The minute the user have the secret oin there own computer that can >> extraxt it. Put in into there own what ever to tell the servers "HEY >> I'm the good viewer from Balp. My secret is, ALLEN". This will make any >> try to use this for any identifications on the LL side impossible. >> > > Right, code signing could tell a *user* the original source of the > viewer but can't in any way that I know be used to identify over the > wire that the viewer is valid in a way thats not spoofable. > > Perhaps if the focus is making content creators happy that's enough. > Though I don't see a mechanism here for LL to enforce attempts to grief > or steal content using a specific viewer. > > Mike > > > > From robla at lindenlab.com Wed Oct 21 08:52:31 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:52:31 -0700 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <e0b04bba0910210044v6300753cgd3f28d70b80e8282@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910210044v6300753cgd3f28d70b80e8282@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Morgaine <morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com>wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > >> it's really important that you also post your thoughts on the forum as >> well. If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you >> should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. > > > Rob, could you perhaps explain to us *WHY* you believe that we should do > this, please? > Linden Lab is currently crafting a policy, with community input. It's not a process we can do fully in the open, because there are many, many factors involved here that don't lend themselves to a fully public process. Still, it's a more open process than the vast majority of companies in our position would conduct. We're gathering input via many channels, with the forum being at the center of our current efforts. It's not the quantity of comments that will sway Linden opinion on this, but the persuasiveness of the arguments. If this community demonstrates an ability to engage the wider community with a thoughtful dialog, that will hold a lot of sway. Not merely by stating your opinion, but by engaging others holding opposing views. You may not convince the person you're debating, but you may convince a few people that are reading the thread who are forming their own opinion. A lot of Lindens who need to hear what you have to say are tuned in to that conversation, even if they aren't actively participating. Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/e6cb1df7/attachment-0001.htm From Anders at Arnholm.se Wed Oct 21 08:59:01 2009 From: Anders at Arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:59:01 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> References: <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> No the screat are probalt some muchg lnger than allen, it will be trasforemed with an algoritm. f(SKEY, Challange) Is what are going to be sent, this to make sure that KEY are not sent over the net and intercepter by anyone on the internet. The problem some to the viewer have to be able to make the calculation f(SKEY, Challange) to make this computation the coputer will need to have both the function f(k,c) and the SKEY someware. Whan you have both these to pices of information in one computer figuring out f() and SKEY are a trivial work. The GSM chip forms the same way, but by having the function, known and the key in a special "tamper" prof hardware, one have a little relative securite this hardware is actually inside the phone. The idea is any attempts to tamper the hardware will change the key. Making it inpossible to read out the key. GSM chip cloinign is thou possible and have been done. having the crypto implementesd in a smart chip and not in the phone/computer makes it harder for anyone to debug and read out what happens. The GSM simcarda have so far all i know been compromized on crypto level. A one-time pad, is actually just a long secret, or a matimatical function of f(n,key), the idea is the challage, n is only used once so the encryped data is only sent over the net once. Both the key and the functions till have to exist at the connecting computer. This give the attacker possibility to examine the functionm and key. RSA is a simple and easy algoritm to study to understand how the public secret scheame works. When you understand this algoritm the limitation of the ideas also becomes clear, yes it's really cool matematics, it's way more capable that a simple one time key scheme. But it still can't solve this problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-key_cryptography Funny you took up GSM security as i have worked wint the USIM module for Ericsson's phone platform. Well that was not GSM it was 3G but the principles are the same even if details changed. On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 01:23:21PM -0200, Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > the secret isn't "ALLEN", the secrent is some sort of formula tha twill > give an answer to a question, no matter what the question, on eahc check > the question is different and the asnwer is different, but if both sides > are using the same formular, the side that asked the question will see > the answer it is expecting. It's how GSM chip identification works, you > can't sniff the radio waves to figure out how to clone a chip, the > questions and answers always change. The secret formula might as well be > somthing along the lines of a one time pad > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad > > > Mike Dickson escreveu: > > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:03 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: > > > >> The big problem is whan you send your viewer out, if it should be in any > >> whay possible to send data to the server "HEY I'm the good viewer from > >> Balp. My secret is, ALLEN" The users computer have to get the secret, > >> The minute the user have the secret oin there own computer that can > >> extraxt it. Put in into there own what ever to tell the servers "HEY > >> I'm the good viewer from Balp. My secret is, ALLEN". This will make any > >> try to use this for any identifications on the LL side impossible. > >> > > > > Right, code signing could tell a *user* the original source of the > > viewer but can't in any way that I know be used to identify over the > > wire that the viewer is valid in a way thats not spoofable. > > > > Perhaps if the focus is making content creators happy that's enough. > > Though I don't see a mechanism here for LL to enforce attempts to grief > > or steal content using a specific viewer. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/1838ea58/attachment.pgp From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 09:15:39 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:15:39 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> References: <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> Message-ID: <4ADF33AB.5010002@Gmail.com> hm, right, yeah, physical access is root access, sorry Anders Arnholm escreveu: > ... From mike.dickson at hp.com Wed Oct 21 09:20:22 2009 From: mike.dickson at hp.com (Mike Dickson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:20:22 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> References: <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> Message-ID: <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> How does that help validate a viewer is "certified"? I can see a OTP to validate a user. The point with the GSM example is the source info is "tamper proof." I don't see that here with a viewer, especially an open source one where source needs to be distributed. On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:59 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: > No the screat are probalt some muchg lnger than allen, it will be > trasforemed with an algoritm. > > f(SKEY, Challange) > > Is what are going to be sent, this to make sure that KEY are not sent > over the net and intercepter by anyone on the internet. The problem some > to the viewer have to be able to make the calculation f(SKEY, Challange) > to make this computation the coputer will need to have both the function > f(k,c) and the SKEY someware. Whan you have both these to pices of > information in one computer figuring out f() and SKEY are a trivial > work. From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 09:26:41 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:26:41 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> References: <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> Message-ID: <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> what I was thinking was that the viewer binary would somehow be signed in a way that it could be verified as having been generated by someone that has been given a trust key from LL, the exactly how part went down the drain kinda Mike Dickson escreveu: > How does that help validate a viewer is "certified"? I can see a OTP to > validate a user. The point with the GSM example is the source info is > "tamper proof." I don't see that here with a viewer, especially an open > source one where source needs to be distributed. > > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:59 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: > >> No the screat are probalt some muchg lnger than allen, it will be >> trasforemed with an algoritm. >> >> f(SKEY, Challange) >> >> Is what are going to be sent, this to make sure that KEY are not sent >> over the net and intercepter by anyone on the internet. The problem some >> to the viewer have to be able to make the calculation f(SKEY, Challange) >> to make this computation the coputer will need to have both the function >> f(k,c) and the SKEY someware. Whan you have both these to pices of >> information in one computer figuring out f() and SKEY are a trivial >> work. >> > > > > From malachi at tamzap.com Wed Oct 21 09:36:02 2009 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:36:02 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com><ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com><e0b04bba0910210044v6300753cgd3f28d70b80e8282@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46C61B7FBA754E419BFC8CCE5307D506@fuckmicrosoft> I agree that there should be some sort of requirement in order to develop and distribute a 3rd party client. However that being said, who is in charge of coming up with this requirement? Code signing, Code review, whatever the case, who would be the ones reviewing the code? LL or the other developers? Does LL have the time and manpower to test, review, and judge each proposed client individually? Does this registration apply to clients that are developed for personal use? or for the use of a small company? I agree with a previous post that yes the tools available for content theft and griefing have made the situation worse. But, also the fact that expendable accounts are readily accessable has fueled this fire with jet fuel. If I want to make a client to use for my company i have to register submit my client to the world at large... but if i want to create a billion accounts on my own website all i need to do is crash the grid a few hundred times and steal everyones content then ask for the RegAPI? Someone please explain this as it makes no sense. Back on topic. Linden Lab offered the source Open for all. And now that All have take that source and done more with it than they could have ever imagined Linden Lab is trying to limit the openess of this source. After taking another moment to review yet again the GPL and FLOSS documentation on Linden Labs own site, it would appear that the only viable solution available to LL is to close the source, remove the GPL, and rewrite the server code. Why the rewrite of the server code? Because they have already given us the GPL source code. Which intitles us to COPY, MODIFY AND DISTRIBUTE our code however we like. Take the source create a client that can kill people in real life...(not possible... for dramatization) and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing LL can do about it. The code is open. I dont agree that just anyone with a connection to the internet should be allowed to craft a client and start passing it out. However i dont agree either that we as developers should be forced to register and promise not to do evil things. Doing evil things helps find exploits. If we are criminals (or being looked at as such) then call us out on it. You ban people for nothing with out even investigating the abuse reports. but now you want us to register in order to do what you wanted us to? What was Second Lifes little catch phrase... "Second Life- Our world your Segregation" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/e74356e9/attachment.htm From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 09:40:50 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:40:50 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <46C61B7FBA754E419BFC8CCE5307D506@fuckmicrosoft> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com><ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com><e0b04bba0910210044v6300753cgd3f28d70b80e8282@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> <46C61B7FBA754E419BFC8CCE5307D506@fuckmicrosoft> Message-ID: <4ADF3992.9000701@Gmail.com> the requirements are the license of the source code and the terms people agree to for connecting with LL's grid malachi escreveu: > I agree that there should be some sort of requirement in order to > develop and distribute a 3rd party client. However that being said, > who is in charge of coming up with this requirement? Code signing, > Code review, whatever the case, who would be the ones reviewing the > code? LL or the other developers? Does LL have the time and manpower > to test, review, and judge each proposed client individually? > > Does this registration apply to clients that are developed for > personal use? or for the use of a small company? > > I agree with a previous post that yes the tools available for content > theft and griefing have made the situation worse. But, also the fact > that expendable accounts are readily accessable has fueled this fire > with jet fuel. > > If I want to make a client to use for my company i have to register > submit my client to the world at large... but if i want to create a > billion accounts on my own website all i need to do is crash the grid > a few hundred times and steal everyones content then ask for the > RegAPI? Someone please explain this as it makes no sense. > > Back on topic. Linden Lab offered the source Open for all. And now > that All have take that source and done more with it than they could > have ever imagined Linden Lab is trying to limit the openess of this > source. After taking another moment to review yet again the GPL and > FLOSS documentation on Linden Labs own site, it would appear that the > only viable solution available to LL is to close the source, remove > the GPL, and rewrite the server code. Why the rewrite of the server > code? Because they have already given us the GPL source code. Which > intitles us to COPY, MODIFY AND DISTRIBUTE our code however we like. > Take the source create a client that can kill people in real > life...(not possible... for dramatization) and there is ABSOLUTELY > nothing LL can do about it. The code is open. > > I dont agree that just anyone with a connection to the internet should > be allowed to craft a client and start passing it out. However i dont > agree either that we as developers should be forced to register and > promise not to do evil things. Doing evil things helps find exploits. > If we are criminals (or being looked at as such) then call us out on > it. You ban people for nothing with out even investigating the abuse > reports. but now you want us to register in order to do what you > wanted us to? What was Second Lifes little catch phrase... "Second > Life- Our world your Segregation" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From dkazimirow at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 09:54:39 2009 From: dkazimirow at gmail.com (Dmitriy Kazimirov) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:54:39 +0700 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> References: <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <44c662a60910210954n1aacf0d4mf99353c2d492250@mail.gmail.com> Won't work. Basically you describe remote attestation system and for this to work you must trust _all_ other components on system. Let's suppose I'm Evil Hacker who wants to extract SKEY from Good Viewer. (and I don't have my own as developer of Another Good Viewer) Given _current_ situation with code I will simple write simple program which inject Evil.dll into SecondLife.exe process and use Evil.dll to find SKEY. Location of SKEY is know from published sources (In fact even this is not need. Ultinmate pirate tool called Debugger(for example one from MSVS) couldl be more than enough). SecondLife.exe can't protect against such tricks(well, it can try but it will make compatibility problems, there are too much software which do code injection for legitimate purposes. And if SecondLife.exe's protection against this is good enough...well,I'm Evil Hacker, I will just use Evil Kernel of Linux(and SecondLife will still support Linux,right? Good luck validating _kernel_, especially some Linux distributions still _require_ you to build your own kernel). And of course were are even more ways. But! What could be done easily is making sure that _by_ default unsigned viewer binary don't connect to Main Grid, Sign key can only be got if your account is validated and signature IS displayed. Also, on connect grid responds back via chat (at random interval of 1-10 minutes) to user which viewer was used and who signed it according to what grid see(random interval is make it difficult for Evil Viewer to modify this response) And make removal of this code not VERY easy to defer script kiddies. (but not experienced devs). It's very likely that this will be much better than today. And it protects _users_ agains Evil Viewers Anyway today difference between one of popular viewers which respects permissions and same viewer which doesn't respect them is about 10 lines of code. Yet I never saw 'non-respecting' version of this popular viewer 2009/10/21 Tigro Spottystripes <tigrospottystripes at gmail.com> > what I was thinking was that the viewer binary would somehow be signed > in a way that it could be verified as having been generated by someone > that has been given a trust key from LL, the exactly how part went down > the drain kinda > > Mike Dickson escreveu: > > How does that help validate a viewer is "certified"? I can see a OTP to > > validate a user. The point with the GSM example is the source info is > > "tamper proof." I don't see that here with a viewer, especially an open > > source one where source needs to be distributed. > > > > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:59 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: > > > >> No the screat are probalt some muchg lnger than allen, it will be > >> trasforemed with an algoritm. > >> > >> f(SKEY, Challange) > >> > >> Is what are going to be sent, this to make sure that KEY are not sent > >> over the net and intercepter by anyone on the internet. The problem some > >> to the viewer have to be able to make the calculation f(SKEY, Challange) > >> to make this computation the coputer will need to have both the function > >> f(k,c) and the SKEY someware. Whan you have both these to pices of > >> information in one computer figuring out f() and SKEY are a trivial > >> work. > >> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -- -- Best Regards, Dmitriy Kazimirov, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/ba2554d9/attachment.htm From pixelgirls at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 10:22:49 2009 From: pixelgirls at gmail.com (Lilly) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:22:49 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910210044v6300753cgd3f28d70b80e8282@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <D6281CA7-D5DA-4680-B93F-B8E8DF109F44@gmail.com> Rob, I'm sorry, but your representative on the forum posts only to _agree_ with statments issued by the most anti open source 3rd party viewer of all SL's residents. I see that as a way to encourage cons arguments. All of this looks like a huge masquerade, it's just a pity. I don't feel you're honnest with us. So, please, go on, tell us what all of this is really about, that will save us some time, and won't divert me more 2 days before the warp & strike. Le 21 oct. 09 ? 17:52, Rob Lanphier a ?crit : > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Morgaine <morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com > > wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> > wrote: > it's really important that you also post your thoughts on the forum > as well. If you disagree with what is being said there, the last > thing you should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. > Rob, could you perhaps explain to us WHY you believe that we should > do this, please? > > > Linden Lab is currently crafting a policy, with community input. > It's not a process we can do fully in the open, because there are > many, many factors involved here that don't lend themselves to a > fully public process. Still, it's a more open process than the vast > majority of companies in our position would conduct. > > We're gathering input via many channels, with the forum being at the > center of our current efforts. It's not the quantity of comments > that will sway Linden opinion on this, but the persuasiveness of the > arguments. If this community demonstrates an ability to engage the > wider community with a thoughtful dialog, that will hold a lot of > sway. Not merely by stating your opinion, but by engaging others > holding opposing views. You may not convince the person you're > debating, but you may convince a few people that are reading the > thread who are forming their own opinion. > > A lot of Lindens who need to hear what you have to say are tuned in > to that conversation, even if they aren't actively participating. > > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges Lilly pixelgirls at gmail.com From Anders at Arnholm.se Wed Oct 21 11:27:04 2009 From: Anders at Arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:27:04 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> References: <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091021182704.GA17454@arnholm.se> At first over view that idea sound so easy... But it's it really hard... On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 02:26:41PM -0200, Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > what I was thinking was that the viewer binary would somehow be signed > in a way that it could be verified as having been generated by someone > that has been given a trust key from LL, the exactly how part went down > the drain kinda > > Mike Dickson escreveu: > > How does that help validate a viewer is "certified"? I can see a OTP to > > validate a user. The point with the GSM example is the source info is > > "tamper proof." I don't see that here with a viewer, especially an open > > source one where source needs to be distributed. > > > > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:59 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: > > > >> No the screat are probalt some muchg lnger than allen, it will be > >> trasforemed with an algoritm. > >> > >> f(SKEY, Challange) > >> > >> Is what are going to be sent, this to make sure that KEY are not sent > >> over the net and intercepter by anyone on the internet. The problem some > >> to the viewer have to be able to make the calculation f(SKEY, Challange) > >> to make this computation the coputer will need to have both the function > >> f(k,c) and the SKEY someware. Whan you have both these to pices of > >> information in one computer figuring out f() and SKEY are a trivial > >> work. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/02edea97/attachment.pgp From adam at deepthink.com.au Wed Oct 21 11:31:24 2009 From: adam at deepthink.com.au (Frisby, Adam) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:31:24 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <20091021182704.GA17454@arnholm.se> References: <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> <20091021182704.GA17454@arnholm.se> Message-ID: <63FAD4F222230A4EA79DE9E8BE6647354D7A6B4E@winxbeus19.exchange.xchg> Not just hard, impossible. The best you can get away with is obfuscation of a attached closed source (or obfuscated code) dependency that handles authentication. Which lasts about as long as it takes for someone to work out how it works (which generally isn't that long - hence the regular updates to things like punkbuster.) Adam > -----Original Message----- > From: sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:sldev- > bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Anders Arnholm > Sent: Wednesday, 21 October 2009 11:27 AM > To: Tigro Spottystripes > Cc: Second Life Developer Mailing List; Anders Arnholm > Subject: Re: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on > blogs.secondlife.com > > > At first over view that idea sound so easy... > But it's it really hard... > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 02:26:41PM -0200, Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > > what I was thinking was that the viewer binary would somehow be > signed > > in a way that it could be verified as having been generated by > someone > > that has been given a trust key from LL, the exactly how part went > > down the drain kinda > > > > Mike Dickson escreveu: > > > How does that help validate a viewer is "certified"? I can see a > > > OTP to validate a user. The point with the GSM example is the > source > > > info is "tamper proof." I don't see that here with a viewer, > > > especially an open source one where source needs to be distributed. > > > > > > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:59 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: > > > > > >> No the screat are probalt some muchg lnger than allen, it will be > > >> trasforemed with an algoritm. > > >> > > >> f(SKEY, Challange) > > >> > > >> Is what are going to be sent, this to make sure that KEY are not > > >> sent over the net and intercepter by anyone on the internet. The > > >> problem some to the viewer have to be able to make the calculation > > >> f(SKEY, Challange) to make this computation the coputer will need > > >> to have both the function > > >> f(k,c) and the SKEY someware. Whan you have both these to pices of > > >> information in one computer figuring out f() and SKEY are a > trivial > > >> work. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by > > MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > > > > -- > o_ Anders Arnholm, > o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se > /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ > / > ` From robertltux at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 12:05:46 2009 From: robertltux at gmail.com (Robert Martin) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:05:46 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <63FAD4F222230A4EA79DE9E8BE6647354D7A6B4E@winxbeus19.exchange.xchg> References: <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> <20091021182704.GA17454@arnholm.se> <63FAD4F222230A4EA79DE9E8BE6647354D7A6B4E@winxbeus19.exchange.xchg> Message-ID: <f5bb005e0910211205g5b564e0bu5e83b5e952b350da@mail.gmail.com> Yah Koow that you are really looking at the question backwards. What you should be looking at is KNOWN HOSTILE VIEWERS and any listing should in fact list why you can't use said viewer somewhat fictional examples 1 Cryolife: leaked lab/testing viewer known to have copyright breaking features NOTE HAS HAD PERMISSION TO USE REVOKED BY AUTHOR NO LEGIT DOWNLOAD LOCATION EXIST 2 ShoopedLife: known griefer and copyright breaking features may be recording logins and passwords for author 3 NailLife: illegally modifed copy of Emerald Viewer GPL violation breaks copyright may be recording logins and passwords for author spoofs Emerald Client tags of course any listing should be in the wiki with a Linden Labs Content tag on it to prevent unauthorized editing unless you are going to provide even a "Sponsored By IBM" build/download farm for projects to certify the clients as clean listing the BAD viewers would be easier From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Wed Oct 21 12:48:48 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:48:48 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <f5bb005e0910211205g5b564e0bu5e83b5e952b350da@mail.gmail.com> References: <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> <20091021182704.GA17454@arnholm.se> <63FAD4F222230A4EA79DE9E8BE6647354D7A6B4E@winxbeus19.exchange.xchg> <f5bb005e0910211205g5b564e0bu5e83b5e952b350da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADF65A0.20103@fishkill.ibm.com> This sounds very reasonable, but if the as-yet-unstated reason for instituting this policy is to eliminate copybots, then providing a list of all available copybots on the wiki wouldn't be very helpful. Mike Robert Martin wrote: > Yah Koow that you are really looking at the question backwards. > > What you should be looking at is KNOWN HOSTILE VIEWERS and any listing > should in fact list why you can't use said viewer > somewhat fictional examples > > 1 Cryolife: leaked lab/testing viewer known to have copyright breaking > features NOTE HAS HAD PERMISSION TO USE REVOKED BY AUTHOR NO LEGIT > DOWNLOAD LOCATION EXIST > 2 ShoopedLife: known griefer and copyright breaking features may be > recording logins and passwords for author > 3 NailLife: illegally modifed copy of Emerald Viewer GPL violation > breaks copyright may be recording logins and passwords for author > spoofs Emerald Client tags > > > of course any listing should be in the wiki with a Linden Labs Content > tag on it to prevent unauthorized editing > > unless you are going to provide even a "Sponsored By IBM" > build/download farm for projects to certify the clients as clean > listing the BAD viewers would be easier > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From lear.cale at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 13:05:38 2009 From: lear.cale at gmail.com (Lear Cale) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:05:38 -0400 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <1256133982.12195.8.camel@mdickson-linux.local> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <1256133982.12195.8.camel@mdickson-linux.local> Message-ID: <e8fbde8c0910211305m43881d57ve20a75c96e0a8819@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Mike Dickson <mike.dickson at hp.com> wrote: > On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 13:39 +0000, Lear Cale wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Argent Stonecutter > > <secret.argent at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I agree, but I believe there's a solution to this. LL could provide a > > mechanism for developers to register, so that a test client can > > automatically get a temporary registration. Trust the people, not the > > software. Someone who tests using multiple avatars would need to > > register each of those avatars. > > That seems pretty awkward. Think of how many registered versions would > have to be tracked and how you might need to handle revocation lists. > Thus these versions being temporary -- valid until you log out, perhaps. Furthermore, lots of versions isn't untenable: simply assign a UUID to any registered version, and create a simple database entry for each. Database entry would contain key or certificates or whatever. One quick lookup to verify. > Code signing would seem to be a solution except that it's not binaries > being sent around it's data. I can see how you could do it with > encryption of the data but that seems to be one of the triggers that > caused the concern in the first place. I'm skeptical, until someone can post a pointer to a good working model. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091021/cead3dd9/attachment.htm From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 13:10:44 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:10:44 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <63FAD4F222230A4EA79DE9E8BE6647354D7A6B4E@winxbeus19.exchange.xchg> References: <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> <1256138077.12195.17.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF2769.4040602@Gmail.com> <20091021155901.GZ17454@arnholm.se> <1256142022.12195.21.camel@mdickson-linux.local> <4ADF3641.6000309@Gmail.com> <20091021182704.GA17454@arnholm.se> <63FAD4F222230A4EA79DE9E8BE6647354D7A6B4E@winxbeus19.exchange.xchg> Message-ID: <4ADF6AC4.3050707@Gmail.com> I at first was just thinking about passive signing, like how people sign emails and stuff, with LL being the certificate authority (is that the name?), things started to fall apart when the binary itself was running the authentication and trying to have the sims know the results without being fooled and stuff Frisby, Adam escreveu: > Not just hard, impossible. > > The best you can get away with is obfuscation of a attached closed source (or obfuscated code) dependency that handles authentication. Which lasts about as long as it takes for someone to work out how it works (which generally isn't that long - hence the regular updates to things like punkbuster.) > > Adam > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com [mailto:sldev- >> bounces at lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Anders Arnholm >> Sent: Wednesday, 21 October 2009 11:27 AM >> To: Tigro Spottystripes >> Cc: Second Life Developer Mailing List; Anders Arnholm >> Subject: Re: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on >> blogs.secondlife.com >> >> >> At first over view that idea sound so easy... >> But it's it really hard... >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 02:26:41PM -0200, Tigro Spottystripes wrote: >> >>> what I was thinking was that the viewer binary would somehow be >>> >> signed >> >>> in a way that it could be verified as having been generated by >>> >> someone >> >>> that has been given a trust key from LL, the exactly how part went >>> down the drain kinda >>> >>> Mike Dickson escreveu: >>> >>>> How does that help validate a viewer is "certified"? I can see a >>>> OTP to validate a user. The point with the GSM example is the >>>> >> source >> >>>> info is "tamper proof." I don't see that here with a viewer, >>>> especially an open source one where source needs to be distributed. >>>> >>>> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 15:59 +0000, Anders Arnholm wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> No the screat are probalt some muchg lnger than allen, it will be >>>>> trasforemed with an algoritm. >>>>> >>>>> f(SKEY, Challange) >>>>> >>>>> Is what are going to be sent, this to make sure that KEY are not >>>>> sent over the net and intercepter by anyone on the internet. The >>>>> problem some to the viewer have to be able to make the calculation >>>>> f(SKEY, Challange) to make this computation the coputer will need >>>>> to have both the function >>>>> f(k,c) and the SKEY someware. Whan you have both these to pices of >>>>> information in one computer figuring out f() and SKEY are a >>>>> >> trivial >> >>>>> work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by >>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. >>> >>> >> -- >> o_ Anders Arnholm, >> o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se >> /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ >> / >> ` >> > > From dzonatas at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 13:34:50 2009 From: dzonatas at gmail.com (Dzonatas Sol) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:34:50 -0700 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADF706A.1030905@gmail.com> At a glance, this is actually positive even if it seems to knudge further restrictions, yet in a bigger picture this move is less restrictive and reflects more of real world needs and not just a mindset that everything is virtual that the viewer/immersion touches upon. While I work on a C# version of the viewer with as much as the original C++ LL code possible, I also realize now that it is best not to keep a lot of the features that come with the viewer now. For example, the way the map works now. It would require lots of code to be rewritten to make it work in a separate window and in C# code. I finally decided just to ax the map entirely and make it a separate app, which would mean it would have its own network code, or maybe somehow use a shared library. If you have your security aware mindset on, you probably see where this could lead and the positive position that is created. For one, why would the map app need access to network code that handles L$? You can copy these comments over to the forum. Thanks Rob Lanphier wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'd like to make sure you all see the announcement of the upcoming 3rd > party viewer policy: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy > > Followups need to be directed to the forum: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/3731 > > ....since many people involved in crafting the new policy are not on > this mailing list, but will be monitoring that forum. > > Thanks > Rob > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From aimee.trescothick at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 17:55:33 2009 From: aimee.trescothick at gmail.com (Aimee Trescothick) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:55:33 +0100 Subject: [sldev] [Patch] Request for review SNOW-316 (and request for translations) References: <9525261A-D39A-4F2A-9997-9819A1C57C85@ama-zing.co.uk> Message-ID: <28E1769E-BD4D-43D3-A273-9A60F2C5232A@gmail.com> I have attached a patch to SNOW-316 to fix the crash in the media panel of About Land, turns out I overlooked checking the silver skin while fixing up the XUI during the push to get the SNOW-222 merge done, oops. Just deleting the floater_about_land.xml file from the silver skin does the trick, that's all the patch does; could another committer check and confirm it works so that I can commit it? That does however highlight that the translations will also be broken, there is currently no translation of the controls that have moved to the new audio panel, and there are a number of new controls on the media panel, so that will all need sorting out as well. Aimee. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091022/f9163240/attachment.htm From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Thu Oct 22 02:33:01 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:33:01 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [Patch] Request for review SNOW-316 (and request for translations) In-Reply-To: <28E1769E-BD4D-43D3-A273-9A60F2C5232A@gmail.com> References: <9525261A-D39A-4F2A-9997-9819A1C57C85@ama-zing.co.uk> <28E1769E-BD4D-43D3-A273-9A60F2C5232A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE026CD.6060807@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Aimee Trescothick wrote: > That does however highlight that the translations will also be broken, > there is currently no translation of the controls that have moved to > the new audio panel, and there are a number of new controls on the > media panel, so that will all need sorting out as well. Dunno if you can create pJIRA issues within the CT project. If not, you might want to just post a list of to-be-translated strings (if possible with context, i.e. what the labeled UI elements are supposed to do) to ctproject at lists.secondlife.com, so non-Developers can help with the translations, too. cheers Boroondas From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 06:45:35 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 08:45:35 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 Message-ID: <a33588fc0910220645x8363549w959378f080ed6f89@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone made anything like this? https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 Id love to be able to throw in a DLL and hook into the plugin api interface. What ia m most interested in is dynamically loading and displaying XUI things. (for game huds and menus etc.)But there is other things. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091022/ac6156ca/attachment-0001.htm From Anders at Arnholm.se Thu Oct 22 06:58:19 2009 From: Anders at Arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:58:19 +0200 Subject: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910220645x8363549w959378f080ed6f89@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910220645x8363549w959378f080ed6f89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091022135819.GB17454@arnholm.se> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 08:45:35AM -0500, Brandon Husbands wrote: > Has anyone made anything like this? > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 > > Id love to be able to throw in a DLL and hook into the plugin api interface. > What ia m most interested in is dynamically loading and displaying XUI things. > (for game huds and menus etc.)But there is other things. My first reas is, they try to sole all into one bunch, the API will be big as "hell". The multimedia plugins are a frirt step there. Lets see how that works. / Balp -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091022/374d77b7/attachment.pgp From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 07:55:34 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:55:34 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 Message-ID: <4ae07258.1708c00a.4ad4.5e3c@mx.google.com> Maybe just a xui plug in for loading displaying etc. Btw how does the emerald viewer listen on a chat chan? -----Original Message----- From: Anders Arnholm <Anders at Arnholm.se> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 8:58 AM To: Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> Cc: Second Life Developer Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Subject: Re: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 08:45:35AM -0500, Brandon Husbands wrote: > Has anyone made anything like this? > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 > > Id love to be able to throw in a DLL and hook into the plugin api interface. > What ia m most interested in is dynamically loading and displaying XUI things. > (for game huds and menus etc.)But there is other things. My first reas is, they try to sole all into one bunch, the API will be big as "hell". The multimedia plugins are a frirt step there. Lets see how that works. / Balp -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Thu Oct 22 08:41:59 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:41:59 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910220645x8363549w959378f080ed6f89@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910220645x8363549w959378f080ed6f89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE07D47.1070704@fishkill.ibm.com> Maybe what you want for the XUI is in VWR-10924. I'm going to put that in the Imprudence viewer, but my computer died a couple weeks ago, so that work is temporarily on hold. Mike Mm Alder Brandon Husbands wrote: > Has anyone made anything like this? > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 > > Id love to be able to throw in a DLL and hook into the plugin api > interface. > What ia m most interested in is dynamically loading and displaying XUI > things. (for game huds and menus etc.)But there is other things. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Oct 22 08:52:03 2009 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:52:03 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201653x2e390749mc9d682026d3ce837@mail.gmail.com> <396754.22106.qm@web59103.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <BEAA78C9-038A-44B7-A0F8-81D95C33E678@gmail.com> <e8fbde8c0910210639le7a0fcah50cc2c534fff543b@mail.gmail.com> <4ADF1705.8030100@Gmail.com> <20091021150316.GY17454@arnholm.se> Message-ID: <20091022155203.GA31877@alinoe.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 05:03:16PM +0200, Anders Arnholm wrote: > For the key handeling there is already a great system called PGP, sadly > users are to bad educated to use pgp-signatures to verify the downloads. While in principle the signing of binaries is a good idea, I predict that users won't care at ALL. Example: emerald doesn't get a key, because they have this 'Of The Record' encryption and 'invisibility' feature. Emerald puts on their website: blah blah blah. Users still download it and use it, just like they do now. -- Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 09:02:07 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:02:07 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 Message-ID: <4ae081f0.02c3f10a.4648.fffff449@mx.google.com> What does that patch add/ do? -----Original Message----- From: Mike Monkowski <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:41 AM To: Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> Cc: Second Life Developer Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Subject: Re: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 Maybe what you want for the XUI is in VWR-10924. I'm going to put that in the Imprudence viewer, but my computer died a couple weeks ago, so that work is temporarily on hold. Mike Mm Alder Brandon Husbands wrote: > Has anyone made anything like this? > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 > > Id love to be able to throw in a DLL and hook into the plugin api > interface. > What ia m most interested in is dynamically loading and displaying XUI > things. (for game huds and menus etc.)But there is other things. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 09:04:52 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:04:52 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 Message-ID: <4ae08295.47c2f10a.18f2.0954@mx.google.com> What does it do / offer? I am trying to not maintain a whole viewer. I would just like to have a closed source dcs plugin -----Original Message----- From: Mike Monkowski <monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:41 AM To: Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> Cc: Second Life Developer Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Subject: Re: [sldev] Plugin patch REQ https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 Maybe what you want for the XUI is in VWR-10924. I'm going to put that in the Imprudence viewer, but my computer died a couple weeks ago, so that work is temporarily on hold. Mike Mm Alder Brandon Husbands wrote: > Has anyone made anything like this? > https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7970 > > Id love to be able to throw in a DLL and hook into the plugin api > interface. > What ia m most interested in is dynamically loading and displaying XUI > things. (for game huds and menus etc.)But there is other things. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Oct 22 09:08:14 2009 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:08:14 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4ADE617F.3010302@Gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE617F.3010302@Gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091022160814.GB31877@alinoe.com> On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:18:55PM -0200, Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > if encrypted communication is banned, languages other than what LL staff > can read, conversations with niche slangs and abbreviations, > conversations about very technical matters, IM commands to bots LL > doesn't have the source code etc would all also need to be banned Client X loads new texture on 'watch' ... Oh damn, that UUID doesn't exist... Mmmm, how much bits are in some random UUID? Surely this can be used to implement encryption. Anyone? -- Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> From xotmid at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 09:09:16 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:09:16 -0500 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com Message-ID: <4ae0839d.47c1f10a.1aed.1110@mx.google.com> Unless the server only lets certified viewers connect to live and non connect to beta. -----Original Message----- From: Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:52 AM To: Anders Arnholm <Anders at Arnholm.se> Cc: Second Life Developer Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com>; Tigro Spottystripes <tigrospottystripes at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 05:03:16PM +0200, Anders Arnholm wrote: > For the key handeling there is already a great system called PGP, sadly > users are to bad educated to use pgp-signatures to verify the downloads. While in principle the signing of binaries is a good idea, I predict that users won't care at ALL. Example: emerald doesn't get a key, because they have this 'Of The Record' encryption and 'invisibility' feature. Emerald puts on their website: blah blah blah. Users still download it and use it, just like they do now. -- Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From carlo at alinoe.com Thu Oct 22 09:25:48 2009 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:25:48 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <20091021093922.GW17454@arnholm.se> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <20091021093922.GW17454@arnholm.se> Message-ID: <20091022162548.GC31877@alinoe.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:39:22AM +0200, Anders Arnholm wrote: > If encryptions is banned LL can give up the idea of being accepted as a > tool for serius work. Any work done for my company or a client of it > have to be protected from interception by a thirdparty listener. This > includes Linden Labs. > > For example in a public company there is laws requieing that information > that could be used my the market are not published just to some people, > it have to be given to the public in a controlled and tracabe way. Talk > about new pruducts, new clients. All fall into this category. I hope > this idea is droped really soon. From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Thu Oct 22 10:51:07 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:51:07 +0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <20091022162548.GC31877@alinoe.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <20091021093922.GW17454@arnholm.se> <20091022162548.GC31877@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <4AE09B8B.60001@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Carlo Wood wrote: > 2) C == A or C == B. Tell C not to use encryption or not to send ARs. ... or to disclose the session key as part of the AR. (Assuming the session key won't give the governance team enough information about the private key, so future communication would still be save.) From makosoft at googlemail.com Thu Oct 22 11:48:05 2009 From: makosoft at googlemail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:48:05 +0100 Subject: [sldev] [Need Help] When does object update start? In-Reply-To: <e160f40910101416n7789780fufbf00f2bc512751d@mail.gmail.com> References: <e160f40910101416n7789780fufbf00f2bc512751d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <c8b4dbe10910221148i536abf99ld9536c51ca867943@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:16 PM, chandra kiran kuchi <kck325 at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello All, > > I am trying to replicate the viewer. > > I was unable to find when the object updates? to the viewer start on agent > login? > I mean what all are the conditions that need to be satisfied apart from > successful login ( inorder for object updates to start)? > > The things I did: > 1) Checked for successful login > 2) Queried for capabilities > 3) On Success of seed capabilities, sent agent details. > 4) Got agent movement complete. > > After all this I am unable to get object/avatar updates. > Thanks for your help. > -- > Regards, > Chandra K Kuchi Hi, You don't appear to have received a reply, which is curious. Anyway, if you haven't figured it out yet: after receiving the RegionHandshake packet, you have to send a RegionHandshakeReply back, and only then will the region start sending object updates. This is to give the viewer a chance to load cached object information first. You may also have to send an AgentUpdate message as well; I can't remember off-hand. (In theory, this is all documented somewhere.) Aidan From makosoft at googlemail.com Thu Oct 22 12:01:12 2009 From: makosoft at googlemail.com (Aidan Thornton) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:01:12 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <4AE09B8B.60001@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <20091021093922.GW17454@arnholm.se> <20091022162548.GC31877@alinoe.com> <4AE09B8B.60001@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <c8b4dbe10910221201y449665e6n24919e06a5665083@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Boroondas Gupte <sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch> wrote: > Carlo Wood wrote: >> 2) C == A or C == B. Tell C not to use encryption or not to send ARs. > ... or to disclose the session key as part of the AR. (Assuming the > session key won't give the governance team enough information about the > private key, so future communication would still be save.) There is no session key that can decrypt the communication. The way OTR works is that it uses a new key for each message,which is immediately thrown away. The *whole* *point* of OTR is to make both decrypting previous conversations and proving the contents of conversations as hard as possible - that's why it's called "off the record". If you want your instant message conversations logged by Linden Labs for AR purposes, don't use OTR. Of course, this probably isn't the real problem Linden Labs have with OTR encryption. They've got used to using mass monitoring of all IMs and in-world chat to prevent griefing, amongst other things. (All the effective griefer groups moved to out-of-world co-ordination channels a long time ago for this reason.) OTR removes this monitoring ability, making the grid gods a little bit less powerful. From robin.cornelius at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 12:36:40 2009 From: robin.cornelius at gmail.com (Robin Cornelius) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:36:40 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <20091022162548.GC31877@alinoe.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <20091021093922.GW17454@arnholm.se> <20091022162548.GC31877@alinoe.com> Message-ID: <c4db5c50910221236o4d9a6bbdq51c8a8d17f62fd58@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> wrote: > > 2) C == A or C == B. Tell C not to use encryption or not to send ARs. > ? If an abuse related to private chat cannot be verified because > ? C willingly is using encryption, then what is the problem? > ? The frustration of the 'support' team? Hahaha. > In this case all the offended party needs to do is provide the key with the AR report. If they logged the encrypted chat then they now have the key to prove the report. From nexisentertainment at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 13:25:26 2009 From: nexisentertainment at gmail.com (Rob Nelson) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:25:26 -0700 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256243126.6276.16.camel@RAGE> I posted on the blog and was ignored, so I'm going to repeat myself here. I've been developing viewers for several years, having started once the OpenSource program was first opened to the public. Through the process of developing viewers, playing with the sourcecode, etc, I have learned many things about viewer-side security. The most important myth to disspell is that requiring viewers to register in a central area is going to improve security at all. Even if viewers were registered to a central database, all someone else would have to do is steal the registration code from a legitimate viewer and spoof any hashes that are sent. It's been done, and it is extremely trivial. In addition, other viewers created by casual developers who are just poking around in the code are probably not going to register, especially if said developer is new to the whole development deal. And what about projects like my viewer, which are unfinished but may need to connect to the grid every so often to test features as they are completed/broken? And member-in-good-standing is rather vague, when you consider that the terms of service authorizes LL to ban users for whatever reason they see fit. I got logged off the other day while idling in my home sim, with no one around, and received no email as to why I got nailed. Fix your policies before you try adding more of them. Too long, didn't read? *This isn't going to work.* Want advice? Beef up the G-Team so they have more members to deal with viewer issues rather than have <10 guys dealing with 36000+ simulators-worth of ARs. There's my two cents. Spend wisely. On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:25 -0700, Rob Lanphier wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'd like to make sure you all see the announcement of the upcoming 3rd > party viewer policy: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/blog/2009/10/20/third-party-viewer-policy > > Followups need to be directed to the forum: > https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/3731 > > ....since many people involved in crafting the new policy are not on > this mailing list, but will be monitoring that forum. > > Thanks > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 14:55:19 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:55:19 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <c4db5c50910221236o4d9a6bbdq51c8a8d17f62fd58@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <20091021093922.GW17454@arnholm.se> <20091022162548.GC31877@alinoe.com> <c4db5c50910221236o4d9a6bbdq51c8a8d17f62fd58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE0D4C7.4060606@Gmail.com> and how do you get the key for decrypting a whole past conversation with OTR? And btw, isn't one of the features of OTR that the encrypted data can be decrypted to arbitrarily anything, providing plausible deniability for any logs that are alleged to be the plain text version of an encrypted conversation? Robin Cornelius escreveu: > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> wrote: > >> 2) C == A or C == B. Tell C not to use encryption or not to send ARs. >> If an abuse related to private chat cannot be verified because >> C willingly is using encryption, then what is the problem? >> The frustration of the 'support' team? Hahaha. >> >> > > In this case all the offended party needs to do is provide the key > with the AR report. If they logged the encrypted chat then they now > have the key to prove the report. > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > > From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Thu Oct 22 16:03:17 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:03:17 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir (was: 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com) In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE0E4B5.5070603@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Rob Lanphier wrote: > If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you > should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. Been there, done that. Alone reading the thread leads to http://xkcd.com/386/, cannot recommend. Wouldn't it save time for everyone if the Lindens crafting the policy would read SLDev and other relevant lists? Going to the bazaar, stepping on your soap box and preaching to the others there on soap boxes isn't very satisfactory, even if you are assured that some tiliae (no offence intended) there are listening, too. Boroondas From robla at lindenlab.com Thu Oct 22 16:26:02 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:26:02 -0700 Subject: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir (was: 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com) In-Reply-To: <4AE0E4B5.5070603@boroon.dasgupta.ch> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> <4AE0E4B5.5070603@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Boroondas Gupte <sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch > wrote: > Rob Lanphier wrote: > > If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you > > should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. > .... > Wouldn't it save time for everyone if the Lindens crafting the policy > would read SLDev and other relevant lists? Do you want a lot of people to join this list strictly for purposes of debating this policy? Are you absolutely certain that *everyone* on this mailing list would prefer to see the conversation occur here? The official place for discussion of this policy is the blog. Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091022/11d2dbbe/attachment.htm From teravus at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 16:59:49 2009 From: teravus at gmail.com (Teravus Ovares) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:59:49 -0400 Subject: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir (was: 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com) In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> <4AE0E4B5.5070603@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34cc66250910221659o6101b95r4087e711670b8ffb@mail.gmail.com> Heh, I think Rob has a point here. Not to name any names..... there are some people who I would prefer didn't argue every e-mail on this list. Regards Teravus On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Boroondas Gupte > <sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch> wrote: >> >> Rob Lanphier wrote: >> > If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you >> > should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. >> .... >> Wouldn't it save time for everyone if the Lindens crafting the policy >> would read SLDev and other relevant lists? > > Do you want a lot of people to join this list strictly for purposes of > debating this policy?? Are you absolutely certain that *everyone* on this > mailing list would prefer to see the conversation occur here? > > The official place for discussion of this policy is the blog. > > Rob > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > From malachi at tamzap.com Thu Oct 22 17:19:36 2009 From: malachi at tamzap.com (malachi) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:19:36 -0400 Subject: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir (was: 3rd party viewerpolicy post on blogs.secondlife.com) In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com><ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com><4AE0E4B5.5070603@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <831EC5E3889E48928BB0D6FB4745C6CC@fuckmicrosoft> excuse me if i sound prude. but rob have you even take the time to read that blog? its filled with misguided uninformed rants and bickering from people who have no idea what we go through to develop the software they all use. and as far as i can tell on that blog the only linden responses have been yes lets burn all 3rd party devs to the stake. and if that blogs response from the community is how you plan to fix these "socalled problems" then tell me this.... what is the plan? throw us all in to a lake and certify only the ones that drown? cause anyone that floats is surely a witch? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Lanphier To: Boroondas Gupte Cc: SLDev Mailing List Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir (was: 3rd party viewerpolicy post on blogs.secondlife.com) On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Boroondas Gupte <sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch> wrote: Rob Lanphier wrote: > If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you > should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. .... Wouldn't it save time for everyone if the Lindens crafting the policy would read SLDev and other relevant lists? Do you want a lot of people to join this list strictly for purposes of debating this policy? Are you absolutely certain that *everyone* on this mailing list would prefer to see the conversation occur here? The official place for discussion of this policy is the blog. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091022/078fda62/attachment-0001.htm From tigrospottystripes at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 19:00:37 2009 From: tigrospottystripes at gmail.com (Tigro Spottystripes) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:00:37 -0200 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <c4db5c50910221236o4d9a6bbdq51c8a8d17f62fd58@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910201638h22ae1485q7a9745a2c95f69e@mail.gmail.com> <b277743b0910201644r273bda52sbb6777a7a270882a@mail.gmail.com> <f5bb005e0910201655sedd644fr7f5c420c7b0441de@mail.gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201724i7be61029j9500975d339ac8d6@mail.gmail.com> <493033a70910201749r162df4e9i136a4cfd33aaef13@mail.gmail.com> <4ADE5E57.50403@Gmail.com> <7cbf3d170910201812r68543e45s192fa5a1d18a7957@mail.gmail.com> <20091021093922.GW17454@arnholm.se> <20091022162548.GC31877@alinoe.com> <c4db5c50910221236o4d9a6bbdq51c8a8d17f62fd58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE10E45.10303@Gmail.com> I believe simply logging in with any client should never be a bannable offense, what you (or the client) do while you're logged in that should matter. Clients, like blades can both take and save lives, can be used both for good and for evil, regardless of the intent of the creator of the binary/source code. From missannotoole at yahoo.com Thu Oct 22 19:21:23 2009 From: missannotoole at yahoo.com (Ann Otoole) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 19:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir (was: 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com) In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> <4AE0E4B5.5070603@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <720605.72928.qm@web59108.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Sage advice Rob. The worst thing anyone can do is participate in political or ideological arguments. I am absolutely certain I am not the only one that immediately deletes an email of a post from that comment stream the instant I see any hint of politics or ideology in the content. (Hint: as for the Emerald OTR IM thing if LL has a legal basis for that call then no amount of screaming and insult hurling will have any effect whatsoever. Screaming into a hurricane is pointless unless you like the taste of rain.) I further and strongly recommend if you want your opinion heard then state it once and without emotion and in a concise unambiguous plain english manner and do so in the first 2 or 3 pages of comments. This means you need to be watching the blog like a hawk if SL is important to you. Yes this means it sounds like arbitrary limits on input but I think this current issue and the endless argument over adult content policies that took place to exactly zero avail serve as prima facia evidence as to why I made that statement. ________________________________ From: Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> To: Boroondas Gupte <sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch> Cc: SLDev Mailing List <sldev at lists.secondlife.com> Sent: Thu, October 22, 2009 7:26:02 PM Subject: Re: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir (was: 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com) On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Boroondas Gupte <sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch> wrote: >Rob Lanphier wrote: >>> If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you >>> should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. >.... >>Wouldn't it save time for everyone if the Lindens crafting the policy >>would read SLDev and other relevant lists? Do you want a lot of people to join this list strictly for purposes of debating this policy? Are you absolutely certain that *everyone* on this mailing list would prefer to see the conversation occur here? The official place for discussion of this policy is the blog. Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091022/855d8226/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:12:10 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:12:10 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Asset Optimizations Message-ID: <b277743b0910230312t2212070uf7a8e93549f0da43@mail.gmail.com> I was putting together an animation, and was faced with a choice. And I realized I have none of the information I need to make the best choice. Is it possible to see the "size" of an asset? Size may exist in various forms, such as "in memory" size, "on disk" size, and "bandwidth used." Are textures stored in memory in a compressed state, or do they have a a byte per pixel? What assets are cached? I thought everything was cached, but I heard on the list recently that actual prim/object data was not cached, just their textures. Are animations cached, or do they have to load the first time they're seen that session? What's the "seek time" for the cache, as well? Is it pretty much as fast as disk access to load an asset, or are there a number of hoops that must be jumped through? Is any part of the cache held in RAM, or is it on-disk unless the asset is currently shown inworld? Thanks, Stickman From chaosstar at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:29:26 2009 From: chaosstar at gmail.com (Ambrosia) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:29:26 +0200 Subject: [sldev] Asset Optimizations In-Reply-To: <b277743b0910230312t2212070uf7a8e93549f0da43@mail.gmail.com> References: <b277743b0910230312t2212070uf7a8e93549f0da43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9bb32d430910230329g252c8eafga13ca138fc62172c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 12:12, Stickman <stickman at gmail.com> wrote: > Is it possible to see the "size" of an asset? Size may exist in > various forms, such as "in memory" size, "on disk" size, and > "bandwidth used." Are textures stored in memory in a compressed state, > or do they have a a byte per pixel? Naturally they are (to my knowledge) compressed in normal Ram, but when it comes to graphics cards, textures need to be completely uncompressed in their memory. > What assets are cached? I thought everything was cached, but I heard > on the list recently that actual prim/object data was not cached, just > their textures. Are animations cached, or do they have to load the > first time they're seen that session? To my knowledge, everything is cached, however some files that get created when the cached data is uncompressed into special file formats (.lso, .dsf) get removed again after the session. Some third party viewers allow a debug setting so the uncompressed files remain in cache after a logoff, solving some issues especially when it comes to multiple logins, however keeping uncompressed sounds can blow the cache size to lots of gigabytes since the uncompressed sound data is pretty much wav format. > What's the "seek time" for the cache, as well? Is it pretty much as > fast as disk access to load an asset, or are there a number of hoops > that must be jumped through? Is any part of the cache held in RAM, or > is it on-disk unless the asset is currently shown inworld? I think it depends on the asset type, but to my knowledge textures get unloaded again mere seconds after they have not been seen in-world. > Thanks, > > Stickman > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges > From Anders at Arnholm.se Fri Oct 23 04:12:44 2009 From: Anders at Arnholm.se (Anders Arnholm) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:12:44 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir (was: 3rd party viewerpolicy post on blogs.secondlife.com) In-Reply-To: <831EC5E3889E48928BB0D6FB4745C6CC@fuckmicrosoft> References: <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> <831EC5E3889E48928BB0D6FB4745C6CC@fuckmicrosoft> Message-ID: <20091023111244.GD17454@arnholm.se> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 08:19:36PM -0400, malachi wrote: > excuse me if i sound prude. but rob have you even take the time to read that > blog? It's much much easter to read all on the blod now whan each massage is spammed to your inbox in full. Not we just need the mail's threaded as well. -- o_ Anders Arnholm, o/ /\ anders at arnholm.se /|_, \\ http://anders.arnholm.se/ / ` -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091023/a3b2a75c/attachment.pgp From sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch Fri Oct 23 04:43:32 2009 From: sllists at boroon.dasgupta.ch (Boroondas Gupte) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:43:32 +0200 Subject: [sldev] [POLICY] Preaching to the choir In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> <4AE0E4B5.5070603@boroon.dasgupta.ch> <ab42f67e0910221626p2cfadcb4jc286d4cd9c3e0c55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE196E4.9080903@boroon.dasgupta.ch> Rob Lanphier wrote: > Do you want a lot of people to join this list strictly for purposes of > debating this policy? I didn't want to imply that the main discussion should be here. That'd be elitist, as a lot of Residents wouldn't feel "at home" on a technical mailing list. But I think the list could serve as a good place for feedback from developers (and wanabe developers like me). If the discussion is only on the blog forum, you have to be aware that quite some voices that could contribute technical or dev-community specific considerations and insights will be missing, just because they don't want to add the the general noise. Although quite some of use bothered to explain both, what they consider facts (and why they consider it facts) as well as what their personal opinions are, you'll note they quickly begin to repeat themselves because the same (IMHO often flawed) arguments keep popping up in diverse variations. Of course, the same might occur on SLDev, so Ann and Anders are probably right. > Are you absolutely certain that *everyone* on this mailing list would > prefer to see the conversation occur here? If "on the mailing list" means everyone reading it (I don't know who all subscribed) than I'm certain that *not* everyone would prefer it, because e.g. Prokofy is apparently reading this list and I'm sure (although he probably didn't state so explicitly) he prefers the discussion being only on the blog than only here or partly here. cheers Boroondas From morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com Fri Oct 23 06:58:55 2009 From: morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com (Morgaine) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:58:55 +0100 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910210044v6300753cgd3f28d70b80e8282@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <e0b04bba0910230658y3d11544q48ebf659f1659028@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > > If this community demonstrates an ability to engage the wider community > with a thoughtful dialog, that will hold a lot of sway. Not merely by > stating your opinion, but by engaging others holding opposing views. > "*If this community demonstrates an ability to engage the wider community*..." --- Far more importantly, the open source community has been helping Linden Lab *directly* with bug triage and Snowglobe development. Despite this, the case for open source still needs to be made? I'm extremely puzzled. And how are "*thoughtful dialogue*" and ability to "*engage others holding opposing views*" related to the crafting of a technically coherent policy on open source viewers? Those are admirable qualities in residents for social purposes of course, but I certainly hope that Linden policy is based on the concrete benefits of open source (which you know already) instead of on how it's presented in a massive blog war. There's something very odd happening here, and I wish I knew what it was. Morgaine. =========================================== On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Morgaine <morgaine.dinova at googlemail.com > > wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com>wrote: >> >>> it's really important that you also post your thoughts on the forum as >>> well. If you disagree with what is being said there, the last thing you >>> should do is cede the venue to those you disagree with. >> >> >> Rob, could you perhaps explain to us *WHY* you believe that we should do >> this, please? >> > > > Linden Lab is currently crafting a policy, with community input. It's not > a process we can do fully in the open, because there are many, many factors > involved here that don't lend themselves to a fully public process. Still, > it's a more open process than the vast majority of companies in our position > would conduct. > > We're gathering input via many channels, with the forum being at the center > of our current efforts. It's not the quantity of comments that will sway > Linden opinion on this, but the persuasiveness of the arguments. If this > community demonstrates an ability to engage the wider community with a > thoughtful dialog, that will hold a lot of sway. Not merely by stating your > opinion, but by engaging others holding opposing views. You may not > convince the person you're debating, but you may convince a few people that > are reading the thread who are forming their own opinion. > > A lot of Lindens who need to hear what you have to say are tuned in to that > conversation, even if they aren't actively participating. > > Rob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091023/707ffc89/attachment-0001.htm From kck325 at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:36:09 2009 From: kck325 at gmail.com (chandra kiran kuchi) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:36:09 -0400 Subject: [sldev] Right Click not working!! Message-ID: <e160f40910231236k7af315f5o547ed8dc4b4b4450@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, I made some(sorry many) changes to the Second Life Client, and I realized that right click is not working. Can somebody point me to the place which effects right click? Thanks for your valuable time. -- Regards, Chandra K Kuchi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091023/b78dee60/attachment.htm From lenglish5 at cox.net Sat Oct 24 09:03:13 2009 From: lenglish5 at cox.net (Lawson English) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 09:03:13 -0700 Subject: [sldev] 3rd party viewer policy post on blogs.secondlife.com In-Reply-To: <e0b04bba0910230658y3d11544q48ebf659f1659028@mail.gmail.com> References: <ab42f67e0910201025l691a5484g23a8a8eca4331bed@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910202134ge736fefk81cb9aa914d7e56d@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910210044v6300753cgd3f28d70b80e8282@mail.gmail.com> <ab42f67e0910210852j24befe57idba74a63d96d1619@mail.gmail.com> <e0b04bba0910230658y3d11544q48ebf659f1659028@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE32541.7070506@cox.net> Morgaine wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Rob Lanphier <robla at lindenlab.com > <mailto:robla at lindenlab.com>> wrote: > > > If this community demonstrates an ability to engage the wider > community with a thoughtful dialog, that will hold a lot of sway. > Not merely by stating your opinion, but by engaging others holding > opposing views. > > > > "/*If this community demonstrates an ability to engage the wider > community*/ ..." --- Far more importantly, the open source community > has been helping Linden Lab /directly/ with bug triage and Snowglobe > development. Despite this, the case for open source still needs to be > made? I'm extremely puzzled. > > > And how are "/*thoughtful dialogue*/" and ability to "/*engage others > holding opposing views*/" related to the crafting of a technically > coherent policy on open source viewers? Those are admirable qualities > in residents for social purposes of course, but I certainly hope that > Linden policy is based on the concrete benefits of open source (which > you know already) instead of on how it's presented in a massive blog war. > > There's something very odd happening here, and I wish I knew what it was. > > > Morgaine. > M isn't a developer. He's here to make money by making his customers happy. The loudest customers are obviously the most committed and should be given the most attention. Or something like that. Lawson From merov at lindenlab.com Sun Oct 25 20:46:59 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:46:59 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Right Click not working!! In-Reply-To: <e160f40910231236k7af315f5o547ed8dc4b4b4450@mail.gmail.com> References: <e160f40910231236k7af315f5o547ed8dc4b4b4450@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <78f69850910252046p5ba9ee81p74db9cc80032ea3c@mail.gmail.com> Hi Chandra, Track the overloaded handleRightMouseDown() that should be called where it doesn't work anymore. Grep the whole code: there aren't that many places it's done. Look into llwindow/llmousehandler.h for the prototype of the method. Cheers, - Merov On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 12:36 PM, chandra kiran kuchi <kck325 at gmail.com>wrote: > Hello All, > > I made some(sorry many) changes to the Second Life Client, and I realized > that right click is not working. > > Can somebody point me to the place which effects right click? > > Thanks for your valuable time. > > -- > Regards, > Chandra K Kuchi > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091025/5397f088/attachment.htm From xotmid at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 22:34:12 2009 From: xotmid at gmail.com (Brandon Husbands) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 00:34:12 -0500 Subject: [sldev] Legal action / Linden labs action upon hackers? Message-ID: <a33588fc0910252234p1b2ba8b5w5b6b6fa3518aae1c@mail.gmail.com> What do you all think should there not be legal recourse for people hacking say in game items that have a out of work connection? Like systems that have databases where they exploit it through sl? Can / will linden labs care enough to take any action? Or do you think you would need to go out of world and sue either them or ll / file for full disclosure? I ask this cause people constantly try to exploit combat systems. I am wondering what recourse there is for said events. Whats your thoughts as developers? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091026/09cbef4e/attachment.htm From stickman at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 22:47:32 2009 From: stickman at gmail.com (Stickman) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 22:47:32 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Legal action / Linden labs action upon hackers? In-Reply-To: <a33588fc0910252234p1b2ba8b5w5b6b6fa3518aae1c@mail.gmail.com> References: <a33588fc0910252234p1b2ba8b5w5b6b6fa3518aae1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <b277743b0910252247j43021a41i3601ffa53eb3b581@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Brandon Husbands <xotmid at gmail.com> wrote: > What do you all think should there not be legal recourse for people hacking > say in game items that have a out of work connection? Like systems that have > databases where they exploit it through sl? Can / will linden labs care > enough to take any action? Or do you think you would need to go out of world > and sue either them or ll / file for full disclosure?? I ask this cause > people constantly try to exploit combat systems. I am wondering what > recourse there is for said events. > > Whats your thoughts as developers? If I develop software for Windows, and Microsoft came to my legal defense if someone was found hacking, I would be freaked out. That feels like Microsoft is laying some claim to my product. Besides, Microsoft has no idea how I built my system. Maybe I'm an idiot and made it extremely insecure. I doubt they'd enjoy representing that in court. It's well known that Microsoft has bounties on worm and virus creators. But that's a first-party thing. Any third party thing is the responsibility of the third party. Having said that. That are a lot of clueless parties as to what the law is and says. Especially since we're dealing with something new and unusual that thrusts people into an intellectual property situation with no knowledge of how the laws work. Which is why I made this Jira (already resolved, though Under Advisement) which asks for a Linden lawyer to have office hours. http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-3263 I'm all for educating people. But I'm strongly against bailing them out. Consequences exist to teach people lessons. Remove the consequences, and no education happens. -Stickman From garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com Mon Oct 26 16:21:36 2009 From: garmin.kawaguichi at magalaxie.com (Garmin Kawaguichi) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:21:36 +0100 Subject: [sldev] What is the real future of Snowglobe? Message-ID: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> "Our hope is that we can create a widely-used openly developed version of the Second Life client which is a compelling alternative for a broad set of users, and contains enhancements and development that then rapidly make their way back into the mainstream Second Life version." Philip Linden in Intensifying Open Source Efforts March 30, 2009 "I want to help create a high-value viewer that lots of people use." Philip Rosedale, in [sldev] Code review for those of you with commit access, March 31 21:24 PDT 2009 After reading that and seeing the produced work and published Snowglobe 1.0, and knowing Second Life 2.0 RC is for the next weeks, I've some questions : 1 : Today (October 27, 2009) how can we define Snowglobe? 2 : How many patches or innovations from Snowglobe are built into Second Life 2.0? (Map for instance) 3 : Since the next viewer is Second Life 2.0, what is the real future of Snowglobe? GCI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091027/1507fb8d/attachment.htm From snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com Mon Oct 26 21:05:22 2009 From: snowfox102 at dragonkeepcreations.com (Maya Remblai) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:05:22 -0600 Subject: [sldev] What is the real future of Snowglobe? In-Reply-To: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> References: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> Message-ID: <4AE67182.1070809@dragonkeepcreations.com> Garmin Kawaguichi wrote: > After reading that and seeing the produced work and published > Snowglobe 1.0, and knowing Second Life 2.0 RC is for the next weeks, > I've some questions : That right there is the only thing that really got my attention. :P Seriously though, I'm wondering about these things myself. I wasn't in on the Snowglobe project from the start, so I actually didn't know that the original intent was to integrate Snowglobe's features with the main viewer. I'm wondering now if that's no longer the plan, since LL hasn't made any indication that Snowglobe is anything but a developer's toy. Sure they made it available to the general public, but other than that they haven't said what they plan to do with it, unless I missed something. Maya From melinda at superliminal.com Mon Oct 26 20:26:13 2009 From: melinda at superliminal.com (Melinda Green) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:26:13 -0700 Subject: [sldev] What is the real future of Snowglobe? In-Reply-To: <4AE67182.1070809@dragonkeepcreations.com> References: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> <4AE67182.1070809@dragonkeepcreations.com> Message-ID: <4AE66855.40406@superliminal.com> Maya Remblai wrote: > Garmin Kawaguichi wrote: > >> After reading that and seeing the produced work and published >> Snowglobe 1.0, and knowing Second Life 2.0 RC is for the next weeks, >> I've some questions : >> > That right there is the only thing that really got my attention. :P > > Seriously though, I'm wondering about these things myself. I wasn't in > on the Snowglobe project from the start, so I actually didn't know that > the original intent was to integrate Snowglobe's features with the main > viewer. I'm wondering now if that's no longer the plan, since LL hasn't > made any indication that Snowglobe is anything but a developer's toy. > Sure they made it available to the general public, but other than that > they haven't said what they plan to do with it, unless I missed something. > > Maya The main intent was to both improve on the clumsy open-source patching process and to safely experiment with allowing OS contributors to make live changes to a part the code base. If this goes really well, then I'd expect them to start allowing live commits even closer to the trunk. I wouldn't think about viewer 2.0 as a new product and Snowglobe as a dead-end. Instead, I'd just look at 2.0 as the trunk diverging from Snowglobe until (hopefully) merging back in a few months. Just how that's going to happen without giving poor Merov a heart attack is anyone's guess. -Melinda From kck325 at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 21:22:10 2009 From: kck325 at gmail.com (chandra kiran kuchi) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:22:10 -0400 Subject: [sldev] [Need Help] Anyone with experience on messaging system? Message-ID: <e160f40910262122k6549e207rbd3fe948232f0f95@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, I instantiated a parallel messaging system to the existing gMessageSystem for second life client. It works perfectly well, only for a small abberation. When an agent logs in through this messaging system, the server seems to send neighbouring client info and teleport finish info through original messaging system gMessageSystem. Can anyone provide insight on possible causes for this thing to happen? Please let me know if I am not clear on this. Thanks for your time. -- Regards, Chandra K Kuchi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091027/439becaa/attachment.htm From merov at lindenlab.com Mon Oct 26 21:37:54 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:37:54 -0700 Subject: [sldev] What is the real future of Snowglobe? In-Reply-To: <4AE66855.40406@superliminal.com> References: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> <4AE67182.1070809@dragonkeepcreations.com> <4AE66855.40406@superliminal.com> Message-ID: <78f69850910262137q1ba277a5n46ff24959687a0fe@mail.gmail.com> Hi guys, I haven't been posting on this subject at all on sldev though, of course, it is of prime importance, especially if my health is in line (thanks Melinda for your concern, I just got a complete physical and my heart is in no danger of immediate arrest... :) ) There are a couple of things I wanted to say though on all this matter: one on Open Source in general, and one on Snowglobe in particular, which is the theme of that thread. On Open Source: Open Sourcing code is by its very nature a call to others developers to do and try new, interesting, innovative things. Things that we, LL, don't have the resource to tackle, markets too small or too niche for LL to focus on, use cases that we can't reach because we can't know everything. That's what we want to enable. This is not a competition of "our viewer" against "your viewer" and we don't feel embarrassed or ashamed that someone else comes up with other interesting ideas. Challenged? May be, sometimes. But challenge is good. Thinking about it, this flurry of features tried and tested in the open gives us market selection/validation better than any market study could ever give us. What's not to like? On Snowglobe now: even if we open source the viewer, there's no particular reason for LL to actively develop something in close collaboration with a community of developers. We could just throw regular source tree out there and let people do their stuff and that's what we've been doing prior to Snowglobe (and still do with the viewer trunk). The objective of Snowglobe was different, it was to establish a project where LL and a community of interested devs would engage and collaborate on some projects. Those projects are chosen among the deep core structure of the viewer (so far: texture fetching for performance, plugin architecture) because this is where wide collaboration is the most fruitful. Those changes are tricky, require extensive testing (for which we are grateful) and benefit from having their code read and tweaked by a community of developers. http-texture got plenty of great fixes that way (the curl crasher fix comes to mind). We welcome developers creating new viewers with specific user targets or use cases in mind. Why not? There's no reason to have a one size fit all tool to access a world as rich as SL. That's the whole point of having an open source viewer in the first place: we want everybody to use SL for every possible use case of IW activity and if that means that they need a specific viewer for it, the open source code is there for them to do just that. That's the point. So in conclusion, we love to see other alternative viewers. This is great. May a thousand roses bloom! What we don't want though is for those viewers to break the ToS and act as giant griefing machines. That's the specific narrow point of that new policy discussion. As for Snowglobe, it won't stop once viewer 2.0 is out and, as Melinda mentioned, we'll merge (or more than likely re-base, I've been thinking about it lately...) when time is right. Cheers, - Merov On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Melinda Green <melinda at superliminal.com>wrote: > Maya Remblai wrote: > > Garmin Kawaguichi wrote: > > > >> After reading that and seeing the produced work and published > >> Snowglobe 1.0, and knowing Second Life 2.0 RC is for the next weeks, > >> I've some questions : > >> > > That right there is the only thing that really got my attention. :P > > > > Seriously though, I'm wondering about these things myself. I wasn't in > > on the Snowglobe project from the start, so I actually didn't know that > > the original intent was to integrate Snowglobe's features with the main > > viewer. I'm wondering now if that's no longer the plan, since LL hasn't > > made any indication that Snowglobe is anything but a developer's toy. > > Sure they made it available to the general public, but other than that > > they haven't said what they plan to do with it, unless I missed > something. > > > > Maya > > The main intent was to both improve on the clumsy open-source patching > process and to safely experiment with allowing OS contributors to make > live changes to a part the code base. If this goes really well, then I'd > expect them to start allowing live commits even closer to the trunk. > > I wouldn't think about viewer 2.0 as a new product and Snowglobe as a > dead-end. Instead, I'd just look at 2.0 as the trunk diverging from > Snowglobe until (hopefully) merging back in a few months. Just how > that's going to happen without giving poor Merov a heart attack is > anyone's guess. > > -Melinda > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting > privileges > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091026/18020589/attachment.htm From secret.argent at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 04:10:15 2009 From: secret.argent at gmail.com (Argent Stonecutter) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:10:15 -0500 Subject: [sldev] What is the real future of Snowglobe? In-Reply-To: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> References: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> Message-ID: <79C9A9F1-7F0B-4A79-93ED-65316264A152@gmail.com> On 2009-10-26, at 18:21, Garmin Kawaguichi wrote: > 1 : Today (October 27, 2009) how can we define Snowglobe? > > 2 : How many patches or innovations from Snowglobe are built into > Second Life 2.0? (Map for instance) > > 3 : Since the next viewer is Second Life 2.0, what is the real > future of Snowglobe? 4 : Will there be a Snowglobe 2.0 based on the SL 2.0 client? From monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com Tue Oct 27 08:48:28 2009 From: monkowsk at fishkill.ibm.com (Mike Monkowski) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:48:28 -0400 Subject: [sldev] What is the real future of Snowglobe? In-Reply-To: <78f69850910262137q1ba277a5n46ff24959687a0fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> <4AE67182.1070809@dragonkeepcreations.com> <4AE66855.40406@superliminal.com> <78f69850910262137q1ba277a5n46ff24959687a0fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AE7164C.2070209@fishkill.ibm.com> Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > The objective of Snowglobe was different, it was to establish a > project where LL and a community of interested devs would engage and > collaborate on some projects. Those projects are chosen among the deep > core structure of the viewer (so far: texture fetching for performance, > plugin architecture) because this is where wide collaboration is the > most fruitful. Those changes are tricky, require extensive testing (for > which we are grateful) and benefit from having their code read and > tweaked by a community of developers. http-texture got plenty of great > fixes that way (the curl crasher fix comes to mind). I was actually disappointed that Snowglobe spent so much time putting in texture fetching and media plugins without actually engaging the community. A few developers took it upon themselves to figure out what was being changed and they were able to contribute patches, and a few more ran the code and reported bugs, but these two features were mainly Merov's patches. The rest of us never understood the implementation details, never understood how the processing flow changed, and just submitted other patches that we were interested in. Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. I was happy to get patches accepted. I just think the core projects could benefit from more communication. I had suggested code reviews (or maybe overviews is a better word) a while back, but was shot down. Anybody have any other suggestions? Mike From carlo at alinoe.com Tue Oct 27 09:19:39 2009 From: carlo at alinoe.com (Carlo Wood) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:19:39 +0100 Subject: [sldev] What is the real future of Snowglobe? In-Reply-To: <4AE7164C.2070209@fishkill.ibm.com> References: <AE183C81BE3B49FA91BB1B744807BB40@Deimos> <4AE67182.1070809@dragonkeepcreations.com> <4AE66855.40406@superliminal.com> <78f69850910262137q1ba277a5n46ff24959687a0fe@mail.gmail.com> <4AE7164C.2070209@fishkill.ibm.com> Message-ID: <20091027161939.GA579@alinoe.com> The correct way to devide ones time is: 25% coding 25% debugging 50% writing documentation Unfortunately, most developers don't do that, they feel they have not enough time and spend 90% on coding, 10% of debugging and 0% on writing documentation for others. On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:48:28AM -0400, Mike Monkowski wrote: > Philippe (Merov) Bossut wrote: > > The objective of Snowglobe was different, it was to establish a > > project where LL and a community of interested devs would engage and > > collaborate on some projects. Those projects are chosen among the deep > > core structure of the viewer (so far: texture fetching for performance, > > plugin architecture) because this is where wide collaboration is the > > most fruitful. Those changes are tricky, require extensive testing (for > > which we are grateful) and benefit from having their code read and > > tweaked by a community of developers. http-texture got plenty of great > > fixes that way (the curl crasher fix comes to mind). > > I was actually disappointed that Snowglobe spent so much time putting in > texture fetching and media plugins without actually engaging the > community. A few developers took it upon themselves to figure out what > was being changed and they were able to contribute patches, and a few > more ran the code and reported bugs, but these two features were mainly > Merov's patches. The rest of us never understood the implementation > details, never understood how the processing flow changed, and just > submitted other patches that we were interested in. > > Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. I was happy to get patches > accepted. I just think the core projects could benefit from more > communication. I had suggested code reviews (or maybe overviews is a > better word) a while back, but was shot down. Anybody have any other > suggestions? > > Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLDev > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges -- Carlo Wood <carlo at alinoe.com> From merov at lindenlab.com Tue Oct 27 18:44:01 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:44:01 -0700 Subject: [sldev] SNOW-272 update Message-ID: <78f69850910271844v78fed33uf839a9a350e8b81e@mail.gmail.com> Hi, That bug is the last blocking bug on Snowglobe 1.2 (basically, Snowglobe doesn't run on Windows unless you have Visual Studio installed...) and I'm glad to report I have a solution for it. Not committed yet but it does work fine on my naive test environment which is great! Gory (really) details are in the PJIRA for those interested (Rated R : mild MVCRT issues, heavy 3rd party libraries recompiled from source, some package files shuffling). I apologize for the delay on that one (and my subsequent semi silence on the list and IRC as I was wrangling with it...). We should be able to create RC builds of Snowglobe 1.2 shortly now which makes me much happier. Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091027/1db37040/attachment.htm From robla at lindenlab.com Thu Oct 29 17:40:56 2009 From: robla at lindenlab.com (Rob Lanphier) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:40:56 -0700 Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.2 testing sprint, Tuesday, Message-ID: <ab42f67e0910291740u10384b7enb5c5efceac5bd38a@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone, You're invited to our Snowglobe testing sprint this upcoming Tuesday, at 1pm PST (21:00 UTC). Note, the US will have just shifted off of Daylight Savings. For the uninitiated, a "test sprint" is where (hopefully) a lot of folks show up, we divide up a bunch of test plans we have, and then we get through as much as we can in the time that we have, filing bugs as we find them. If you've been wanted to help out, but didn't know how to pitch in, this is a great time to do it. To get more updates prior to the test sprint, set yourself up as a watcher on SNOW-280: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-280 Also, there's no need to wait until Tuesday to get started. One good strategy would be to see how far you get on your own, and use the test sprint as a time to get clarifications on things, or just to report back your results. If you know there's a particular test plan you want to lay claim to, just say something in the comments on SNOW-280 or the appropriate subtask. Hope to see you there! Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091029/dc03b6d7/attachment.htm From merov at lindenlab.com Thu Oct 29 20:02:28 2009 From: merov at lindenlab.com (Philippe (Merov) Bossut) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:02:28 -0700 Subject: [sldev] SNOW-272 patch posted Message-ID: <78f69850910292002l34c14287l4730e4a75d499abe@mail.gmail.com> Hi, As mentioned at the Hippo meeting, I went ahead and posted a patch for SNOW-272. It might not be complete / correct for one thing which is moving the SLPlugin.exe up the install hierarchy, i.e. out of llplugin and next to the secondlife-bin. If you build on Linux, I'd be interested to hear from your experience (please comment in the JIRA). I'll be building on Mac tomorrow morning but if you do in the meantime, please comment in the JIRA too :) Note to Robin: you mentioned at the meeting that you have another better idea for how we should package the crt. I didn't take note and, at that point, I'd vote to do the minimal things required to pass 1.2 but I'd be happy to entertain your proposal for 1.3. Anything to avoid a repeat of this fiasco would be great. Would you mind to log a JIRA with that proposal? Cheers, - Merov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091029/3299e144/attachment.htm From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Oct 25 10:54:04 2009 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:54:04 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <mailman.13.1257538096.9832.sldev@lists.secondlife.com> r> <br> "Fix all compiler warnings. "<br> <br> --Techwolf<br> <br> <br> ------------------------------<br> <br> Message: 4<br> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:37:46 -0600<br> From: Argent Stonecutter <<a href=3D"mailto:secret.argent at gmail.com">sec= ret.argent at gmail.com</a>><br> Subject: Re: [sldev] -Werror (was: =A0Notes from a Mac Build)<br> To: Second Life Developer Mailing List <<a href=3D"mailto:sldev at lists.se= condlife.com">sldev at lists.secondlife.com</a>><br> Message-ID: <<a href=3D"mailto:7479E098-3E9B-4E20-B7B5-817CA8FAA3EB at gmai= l.com">7479E098-3E9B-4E20-B7B5-817CA8FAA3EB at gmail.com</a>><br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII; format=3Dflowed; delsp=3Dyes<= br> <br> On 2009-11-06, at 02:00, <a href=3D"http://lists.secondlife.com" target=3D"= _blank">lists.secondlife.com</a>@<a href=3D"http://trap.wereanimal.net" tar= get=3D"_blank">trap.wereanimal.net</a> wrote:<br> > On Wednesday 04 November 2009 10:05:45 am Lillian Yiyuan wrote:<br> >> -Werror is supplied by the make files. This too involves changing<= br> >> code, and is a bad idea in open source, since it gets people to ch= eck<br> >> problems before submitting them as patches.<br> >><br> >> Better here, I think, would be to make this opaque, rather than<br= > >> having<br> >> constant strings in cpp files that the code hands out char * to.<b= r> >><br> >> The compiler is right here, this is a bad idea, and it should be<b= r> >> fixed<br> >> rather than swept under the rug.<br> >><br> ><br> > From the Coding Standard wiki at<br> > <a href=3D"http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Coding_standardhttp://wiki.= secondlife.com/wiki/Coding_standard" target=3D"_blank">http://wiki.secondli= fe.com/wiki/Coding_standardhttp://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Coding_standard<= /a><br> ><br> > "Fix all compiler warnings. "<br> <br> "Fix all compiler warnings" doesn't mean "sweep under th= e rug".<br> <br> Shoving in a strdup() is sweeping it under the rug.<br> <br> Incidentally... if there is an actual vulnerability caused by string<br> punning, throwing in a strdup() won't necessarily fix it. Particularly<= br> in the case of the first string which is almost certainly unique. The<br> right fix is almost certainly making the structure members pointers to<br> const strings.<br> <br> <br> ------------------------------<br> <br> Message: 5<br> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 08:17:47 -0800<br> From: "Thomas Nelson" <<a href=3D"mailto:tdark at speakeasy.net">= tdark at speakeasy.net</a>><br> Subject: Re: [sldev] Is there anyone else using a Fedora 11<br> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0configuration?<br> To: <<a href=3D"mailto:SLDev at lists.secondlife.com">SLDev at lists.secondlif= e.com</a>><br> Message-ID: <92E735C661FB440B9AC4C41E59532B9B at Spawn><br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"<br> <br> Thank you Bradley,<br> <br> <br> <br> Your information was right on target. =A0Dropping the Mesa drivers back to<= br> 7.5-0.14 resolved most of the rendering issues.<br> <br> <br> <br> Is there a wiki page for detailing these issues and their resolutions?<br> <br> <br> <br> TomN<br> <br> --<br> Thomas Nelson =A0<a href=3D"mailto:tdark at speakeasy.net">tdark at speakeasy.net= </a><br> --------------------------------------------------------------<br> "If you still have gas, you're not lost".<br> - French explorer Pierre Frontage.<br> (M.Frontage was so influential in the exploration of North America many<br> roads are still named after him.)<br> <br> =A0_____<br> <br> From: <a href=3D"mailto:sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com">sldev-bounces at l= ists.secondlife.com</a><br> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sldev-bounces at lists.secondlife.com">sldev-bounces= @lists.secondlife.com</a>] On Behalf Of Bradley Willson<br> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 12:11 PM<br> To: <a href=3D"mailto:SLDev at lists.secondlife.com">SLDev at lists.secondlife.co= m</a><br> Subject: Re: [sldev] Is there anyone else using a Fedora 11 configuration?<= br> <br> <br> <br> Sounds very familiar with intel<br> chipsets...<a href=3D"https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3D509519#= c32" target=3D"_blank">https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3D509519= #c32</a> was what I<br> have done about it so far<br> <br> --<br> Best regards,<br> Bradley Willson<br> <a href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/bradleywillson" target=3D"_blank">htt= p://www.linkedin.com/in/bradleywillson</a><br> A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is<br= > someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to &quo= t;The<br> United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including = my life."<br> -- Author Unknown<br> <br> -------------- next part --------------<br> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br> URL: <a href=3D"http://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/200= 91106/61b7ed48/attachment-0001.htm" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.secondli= fe.com/pipermail/sldev/attachments/20091106/61b7ed48/attachment-0001.htm</a= ><br> <br> ------------------------------<br> <br> Message: 6<br> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:13:13 -0800<br> From: Rob Lanphier <<a href=3D"mailto:robla at lindenlab.com">robla at lindenl= ab.com</a>><br> Subject: [sldev] Snowglobe 1.2 status<br> To: SLDev Mailing List <<a href=3D"mailto:sldev at lists.secondlife.com">sl= dev at lists.secondlife.com</a>><br> Message-ID:<br> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0<<a href=3D"mailto:ab42f67e0911061013m43f3c89cq526c1ce79= 0daf70a at mail.gmail.com">ab42f67e0911061013m43f3c89cq526c1ce790daf70a at mail.g= mail.com</a>><br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br> <br> Hi folks,<br> <br> We're really close to building the last RC. =A0A flurry of checkins wen= t<br> in yesterday, and we've built 1.2.0.2971:<br> <a href=3D"http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Download_Snowglobe" target=3D"_b= lank">http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Download_Snowglobe</a><br> <br> Thickbrick is putting the finishing touches on SNOW-157. =A0If he's abl= e<br> to finish that off before 3pm PST today, we'll let that into Snowglobe<= br> 1.2, fire off a build, and that'll be RC 1.<br> <br> Please check out build 2971 and let us know if there's any whoppers in<= br> there we're missing.<br> <br> Thanks<br> Rob<br> <br> <br> ------------------------------<br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> SLDev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:SLDev at lists.secondlife.com">SLDev at lists.secondlife.com</a= ><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev" tar= get=3D"_blank">https://lists.secondlife.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sldev<= /a><br> <br> <br> End of SLDev Digest, Vol 35, Issue 7<br> ************************************<br> </blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Best regards, <br>Bradl= ey Willson<br><a href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/bradleywillson">http://= www.linkedin.com/in/bradleywillson</a><br>A Veteran - whether active duty, = retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their = life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America"= ;, for an amount of "up to and including my life." -- Author Unkn= own<br> <br> --000e0cd28fbc52e4280477b9671d--