[opensource-dev] Can we, open source devs, still support Snowglobe? was: Can we be more productive, please?

Jonathan Irvin djfoxyslpr at gmail.com
Fri Apr 2 07:09:06 PDT 2010

Linden or not, your feedback is appreciated.

Jonathan Irvin

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 08:52, JB Hancroft <jbhancroft at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry to disappoint you, Aleric... I am not a Linden... just me :)
> I run a software and consulting business in the virtual world/virtual space
> market, that
> is focused primarily (95% +/-) on SL, at the moment.  That number is likely
> to decrease
> over time, as more and more viable alternatives for my customers come
> online.
> - JB
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Aleric Inglewood <
> aleric.inglewood at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Clearly, no open source developer can accept the possibility to be held
>> liable for their help, by supplying patches.
>> Therefore, we CANNOT agree with the TPV policy unless we understand
>> its implications, as explained by a real lawyer, preferably one of Linden
>> Lab,
>> where it is made clear that developers are not liable for 1) bugs, 2) what
>> others
>> do with their source code, aka the general idea of the GPL.
>> Until that has been established, officially, I do NOT agree with the TPV
>> policy.
>> When I got the pop-up that asked me to agree I made a point of it to NOT
>> accept it, but spend first an hour to write a patch that made it possible
>> for
>> me to click on 'cancel' and still login. I then removed that patch again
>> (and
>> can still log in). Since the TOS/TPVp isn't effective as of 30 April, this
>> is
>> not an illegal thing to do. If I do not get another pop-up at 30 April
>> (and I
>> predict I won't), then I will still not have agreed to the TPV policy.
>> Nevertheless, this is a very undesirable situation of course. So, indeed
>> as JB Hancroft says (who sounds like a Linden with a gmail account :p ),
>> it's better to leave completely. Leave SL, and obviously also stop helping
>> to improve the viewer code. Unfortunately, if it would only be me it will
>> have
>> no effect and will be useless: I would only harm myself because I like
>> using SL and I like working on snowglobe AND we know that Linden Lab
>> *really* only wants something that we (and I) CAN agree with. It's just
>> that they didn't restrict themselves to the real goal of the TPVp. This
>> whole conflict is utterly unnecessary!
>> Hence, leaving without that that would result in Linden Lab fixing this
>> situation and changing the TPVp (or have an official lawyer statement
>> that we can understand and agree with) would be too ridiculous for
>> words.
>> However, I *am* prepared to do this if I'm not the only one.
>> I have not seen the real contributors, Robin,  Boroondas, Dzonatas,
>> Techwolf, Thickbrick (the *currently* most active ones that I know from
>> IRC / my timezone) say much on this topic. But it's your collective
>> feeling (and action) that will count here.
>> Who of the active contributors (speak up if I missed you) are willing to
>> make a stand and stop at least developing for snowglobe, unless we
>> get a clear, understandable and official explanation what kind of legal
>> liability TPV devs are facing? Don't you think we owe that to the other
>> open developers that do not work on snowglobe, but on some TPV?
>> PS LL, please don't tell me this should be posted on this list.
>>      because it "calls for ... something you don't like. I'd rather use
>>     this list and discuss it in the open, with everyone involved,
>>    than approach all the devs off-list. Or set up a new mailinglist
>> without
>>    Lindens on it. Seems really the right thing to do.
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:41 PM, JB Hancroft <jbhancroft at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Here are my thoughts:
>>> 1) If you're not an attorney, please do the rest of us a favor by not
>>> acting like one.
>>>     The TPVP is a legal document, and while we all have opinions,
>>> opinions
>>>     that are based on something other than legal understanding and
>>> experience
>>>     are more likely to contribute to the body of urban legend, than
>>> clarify and inform.
>>>     The law is the law, and whether we like it or not, my understanding
>>> is that
>>>     applying rationale to it's interpretation is a fool's errand.
>>> 2) If you've got a 3rd-party viewer, and the TPVP is an issue for you,
>>> then this isn't
>>>      the forum in which to resolve it.  Take it to Linden Lab via the
>>> legal
>>>      system, with your legal counsel involved.
>>> 3) Second Life is a business; it's not "our" social cause. If you don't
>>> like the way
>>>     things are, you certainly have a right to bitch and complain and
>>> lobby for change.
>>>     But at some point, you're just going to annoy people. Linden Lab
>>> employees
>>>     have already noted the "noise-to-signal ratio" they've observed in
>>> the process of
>>>     extracting what they consider to be valid input and feedback.
>>> 4) If you want to argue as a hobby, please... enjoy.  I'm asking that you
>>> please do it
>>>     somewhere else.  If you truly believe the situation with the TPVP is
>>> all evil and
>>>     bad and not workable,  then please "leave".  If you don't like the
>>> game, don't play.
>>> Yes, there are many ways in which what I've written here can be argued
>>> and dissected
>>> and found lacking.  Please... don't bother; spend your time in a more
>>> productive way.
>>> - JB
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