[opensource-dev] Can we, open source devs, still support Snowglobe? was: Can we be more productive, please?

JB Hancroft jbhancroft at gmail.com
Fri Apr 2 06:52:23 PDT 2010

Sorry to disappoint you, Aleric... I am not a Linden... just me :)

I run a software and consulting business in the virtual world/virtual space
market, that
is focused primarily (95% +/-) on SL, at the moment.  That number is likely
to decrease
over time, as more and more viable alternatives for my customers come

- JB

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Aleric Inglewood <aleric.inglewood at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Clearly, no open source developer can accept the possibility to be held
> liable for their help, by supplying patches.
> Therefore, we CANNOT agree with the TPV policy unless we understand
> its implications, as explained by a real lawyer, preferably one of Linden
> Lab,
> where it is made clear that developers are not liable for 1) bugs, 2) what
> others
> do with their source code, aka the general idea of the GPL.
> Until that has been established, officially, I do NOT agree with the TPV
> policy.
> When I got the pop-up that asked me to agree I made a point of it to NOT
> accept it, but spend first an hour to write a patch that made it possible
> for
> me to click on 'cancel' and still login. I then removed that patch again
> (and
> can still log in). Since the TOS/TPVp isn't effective as of 30 April, this
> is
> not an illegal thing to do. If I do not get another pop-up at 30 April (and
> I
> predict I won't), then I will still not have agreed to the TPV policy.
> Nevertheless, this is a very undesirable situation of course. So, indeed
> as JB Hancroft says (who sounds like a Linden with a gmail account :p ),
> it's better to leave completely. Leave SL, and obviously also stop helping
> to improve the viewer code. Unfortunately, if it would only be me it will
> have
> no effect and will be useless: I would only harm myself because I like
> using SL and I like working on snowglobe AND we know that Linden Lab
> *really* only wants something that we (and I) CAN agree with. It's just
> that they didn't restrict themselves to the real goal of the TPVp. This
> whole conflict is utterly unnecessary!
> Hence, leaving without that that would result in Linden Lab fixing this
> situation and changing the TPVp (or have an official lawyer statement
> that we can understand and agree with) would be too ridiculous for
> words.
> However, I *am* prepared to do this if I'm not the only one.
> I have not seen the real contributors, Robin,  Boroondas, Dzonatas,
> Techwolf, Thickbrick (the *currently* most active ones that I know from
> IRC / my timezone) say much on this topic. But it's your collective
> feeling (and action) that will count here.
> Who of the active contributors (speak up if I missed you) are willing to
> make a stand and stop at least developing for snowglobe, unless we
> get a clear, understandable and official explanation what kind of legal
> liability TPV devs are facing? Don't you think we owe that to the other
> open developers that do not work on snowglobe, but on some TPV?
> PS LL, please don't tell me this should be posted on this list.
>      because it "calls for ... something you don't like. I'd rather use
>     this list and discuss it in the open, with everyone involved,
>    than approach all the devs off-list. Or set up a new mailinglist without
>    Lindens on it. Seems really the right thing to do.
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:41 PM, JB Hancroft <jbhancroft at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Here are my thoughts:
>> 1) If you're not an attorney, please do the rest of us a favor by not
>> acting like one.
>>     The TPVP is a legal document, and while we all have opinions, opinions
>>     that are based on something other than legal understanding and
>> experience
>>     are more likely to contribute to the body of urban legend, than
>> clarify and inform.
>>     The law is the law, and whether we like it or not, my understanding is
>> that
>>     applying rationale to it's interpretation is a fool's errand.
>> 2) If you've got a 3rd-party viewer, and the TPVP is an issue for you,
>> then this isn't
>>      the forum in which to resolve it.  Take it to Linden Lab via the
>> legal
>>      system, with your legal counsel involved.
>> 3) Second Life is a business; it's not "our" social cause. If you don't
>> like the way
>>     things are, you certainly have a right to bitch and complain and lobby
>> for change.
>>     But at some point, you're just going to annoy people. Linden Lab
>> employees
>>     have already noted the "noise-to-signal ratio" they've observed in the
>> process of
>>     extracting what they consider to be valid input and feedback.
>> 4) If you want to argue as a hobby, please... enjoy.  I'm asking that you
>> please do it
>>     somewhere else.  If you truly believe the situation with the TPVP is
>> all evil and
>>     bad and not workable,  then please "leave".  If you don't like the
>> game, don't play.
>> Yes, there are many ways in which what I've written here can be argued and
>> dissected
>> and found lacking.  Please... don't bother; spend your time in a more
>> productive way.
>> - JB
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