[opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

Aleric Inglewood aleric.inglewood at gmail.com
Thu Apr 15 05:13:14 PDT 2010


I thought it would make more sense (I still have hope) to say this now,
and not wait till 30 April.

Also I have decided that Linden Lab does not deserve the 40 hours
per week that I spend volunteering on the snowglobe sources.
Lately I have done less because my motivation was gone due to
the policy, and there has been a long break because I suffer from
something like carpel tunnel, but over all I DO spend that amount
of time on a project that I am devoted to.

If the TPV policy is not going to address FULLY that any open source
developers remain completely free of liability as stated in the GPL
license

[to recap:

[...] THE ENTIRE RISK AS
TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU [the user].
SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL
NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

[...] IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW [...]
WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR
REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES,
INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING
OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER
PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

]

Because of the parts in the [...] it may or may not be POSSIBLE to make
developers
liable through the TPV policy, I don't care. I don't want to run the risk
that the TPV
makes me liable, so it should not contain any words that could be
interpreted
as such.

I am sorry to say that I doubt that this will come to a resolution, because
Joe already
has said that he can only take SMALL changes and is not looking for a
rewrite. He also
said that he can only take it to the lawyers, but he has no power to
actually enforce
anything, it is not up to him.

I will probably start maintaining another TPV specifically for some opengrid
grid.

The REASON I wanted to work on Snowglobe is because I believe that all open
source projects are equal. We are not competitors (some devs of certain
TPV(s)
might take that to heart). I wanted to work there where my bug fixes and
improvements would benefit all. But exactly for that reason I cannot standby
when other open source projects that derive from Snowglobe are bullied into
termination of their project and/or are forced to give up the freedom to
make
their own decisions, the only benefit of being an OS dev.

Sad,
Aleric Inglewood


On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM, Joe Linden <joe at lindenlab.com> wrote:

> For those watching without the benefit of a transcript or the actual words
> I said in the meeting yesterday, here was the rest of that quote:  "* **we've
> had a lot of internal debate around cost/benefit of OS **... and we're
> fully committed to redoubling our commitment to make this a successful
> program*."  Was it infuriating that we have internal debates from time to
> time on how we staff our projects, or infuriating because we are redoubling
> our efforts in many ways to make this a more successful and meaningful
> project for the OS community than it has been in the past?  I was actually
> making a comment that we've not done this very well to date (in fact, we've
> sucked at it), and we're committed to many changes to improve the situation.
>
> Either way, we're sorry to see you go.
>
> -- joe
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Rob Nelson <nexisentertainment at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> And yet, it does restrict GPL distribution rights.  We've been over this
>> already.  And I'd like to see where the FSF OKed it, the only thing I
>> can turn up on Google is Richard Stallman not being too happy about it.
>>
>> I already changed the viewer I used to be working on to Luna, but both
>> the GPL incompatabilities and this rather infuriating "cost/benefit"
>> comment by Joe have resulted in me deciding that LL does not deserve any
>> further OSS development work from me.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 14:11 -0400, Ron Festa wrote:
>> > Honestly I tried looking through my inbox to find out what your
>> > concerns were and why no one else addressed them so forgive me if I
>> > couldn't find them. The only problems I saw you had was compatibility
>> > with the GPLv2 and the use of "Life" in your viewer name.
>> >
>> >
>> > The issues with Section 7 were in fact addressed and took up most of
>> > the meeting. Someone claimed they went as far as bringing the TPVP
>> > before the FSF to verify if its GPLv2 compliant and sadly according to
>> > them it is as its restricting a service not the code. Never the less
>> > concerns were brought up and productive changes were suggested.
>> >
>> >
>> > As for the branding this should be no argument. If in a court of law
>> > they can make Lindows change their name to Linspire because Microsoft
>> > owns *indows then LL can do the same with all the TPV's as stupid as
>> > that is.
>> >
>> >
>> > If these aren't your only concerns please share them so some of us can
>> > deliver them by proxy for you since the time zone difference seems to
>> > be the biggest problem for you.
>> >
>> >
>> > Ron Festa
>> > Virtual Worlds Admin
>> > Division of Continuing Studies at Rutgers University
>> > PGP key: http://bit.ly/b1ZyhY
>> > Phone: 732-474-8583
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Rob Nelson
>> > <nexisentertainment at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >         I decided to read the transcript and it did not address any of
>> >         my
>> >         concerns.
>> >
>> >         [12:21][Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we've ha a lot of
>> >         internal debate
>> >         around cost/benefit of OS
>> >
>> >         ^ That was all I needed to hear.  Debate's effectively over.
>> >
>> >         On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 09:27 -0700, Joe Linden wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >         > Rob,
>> >         >
>> >         > I take it you weren't at the meeting yesterday?
>> >         >
>> >         > -- Joe
>> >         >
>> >         > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Rob Nelson
>> >         > <nexisentertainment at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >         >         It's already reached a point where LL has told us,
>> >         to our
>> >         >         faces, that
>> >         >         they are not going to change the policy, meaning our
>> >         opinion
>> >         >         doesn't
>> >         >         mean diddly to them.  There's no use continuing to
>> >         discussion,
>> >         >         just as
>> >         >         there's no use continuing TPV development.
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         >         On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 07:52 -0500, Jonathan Irvin
>> >         wrote:
>> >         >         > To Whom It May Concern:
>> >         >         >
>> >         >         > I'm requesting Linden Lab's response to this
>> >         inquiry due to
>> >         >         the recent
>> >         >         > influx of new topic related...or should I say
>> >         unrelated to
>> >         >         the
>> >         >         > development of the SnowGlobe viewer.  Lately, when
>> >         I open my
>> >         >         email, I
>> >         >         > get 5-10 different topics and responses daily to
>> >         the recent
>> >         >         changes
>> >         >         > for the Third Party Viewer policy and I feel that
>> >         this is
>> >         >         not related
>> >         >         > to SnowGlobe or related development at all.
>> >         >         >
>> >         >         > To "clear the pipes", can we please move these
>> >         discussions
>> >         >         to a
>> >         >         > different forum or list so valid OpenSource
>> >         development
>> >         >         questions are
>> >         >         > not lost in the flames, complaints, and
>> >         discussions related
>> >         >         to this
>> >         >         > specific topic?
>> >         >         >
>> >         >         > I do not feel it is valid in this forum to talk
>> >         about which
>> >         >         > Third-Party Viewers in the directory were already
>> >         >         impersonated or
>> >         >         > which part of the third party viewer policy they
>> >         do not
>> >         >         like.
>> >         >         >
>> >         >         > Linden Labs, if you can please isolate this to
>> >         another
>> >         >         forum, I bet
>> >         >         > those who are truly interested in the opensource
>> >         development
>> >         >         of the
>> >         >         > Second Life viewer would be more in tuned to
>> >         staying here
>> >         >         rather than
>> >         >         > wake up to read yet another unproductive "I hate
>> >         LL and the
>> >         >         TPVP lets
>> >         >         > get together and share our misery post".
>> >         >         >
>> >         >         > Respectfully & Best Regards,
>> >         >         >
>> >         >         > Jonathan Irvin
>> >         >         > SL Resident of 5 Years.
>> >         >
>> >         >
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