[opensource-dev] Requesting Linden Response: Please move TPVP Topics to a different mailing list

Tigro Spottystripes tigrospottystripes at gmail.com
Thu Apr 15 07:05:33 PDT 2010


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some TPVs might be released under licenses that do assign
responsibilities, legal liabilities etc to developers and/or
distributers, the TPVP shouldn't attempt to override any license applied
to any TPV

On 15/4/2010 09:13, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
> I thought it would make more sense (I still have hope) to say this now,
> and not wait till 30 April.
> 
> Also I have decided that Linden Lab does not deserve the 40 hours
> per week that I spend volunteering on the snowglobe sources.
> Lately I have done less because my motivation was gone due to
> the policy, and there has been a long break because I suffer from
> something like carpel tunnel, but over all I DO spend that amount
> of time on a project that I am devoted to.
> 
> If the TPV policy is not going to address FULLY that any open source
> developers remain completely free of liability as stated in the GPL
> license
> 
> [to recap:
> 
> [...] THE ENTIRE RISK AS
> TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU [the user].
> SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL
> NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.
> 
> [...] IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW [...]
> WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR
> REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES,
> INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING
> OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
> TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
> YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER
> PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
> 
> ]
> 
> Because of the parts in the [...] it may or may not be POSSIBLE to make
> developers
> liable through the TPV policy, I don't care. I don't want to run the
> risk that the TPV
> makes me liable, so it should not contain any words that could be
> interpreted
> as such.
> 
> I am sorry to say that I doubt that this will come to a resolution,
> because Joe already
> has said that he can only take SMALL changes and is not looking for a
> rewrite. He also
> said that he can only take it to the lawyers, but he has no power to
> actually enforce
> anything, it is not up to him.
> 
> I will probably start maintaining another TPV specifically for some
> opengrid grid.
> 
> The REASON I wanted to work on Snowglobe is because I believe that all open
> source projects are equal. We are not competitors (some devs of certain
> TPV(s)
> might take that to heart). I wanted to work there where my bug fixes and
> improvements would benefit all. But exactly for that reason I cannot standby
> when other open source projects that derive from Snowglobe are bullied into
> termination of their project and/or are forced to give up the freedom to
> make
> their own decisions, the only benefit of being an OS dev.
> 
> Sad,
> Aleric Inglewood
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM, Joe Linden <joe at lindenlab.com
> <mailto:joe at lindenlab.com>> wrote:
> 
>     For those watching without the benefit of a transcript or the actual
>     words I said in the meeting yesterday, here was the rest of that
>     quote:  "/ //we've had a lot of internal debate around cost/benefit
>     of OS //... and we're fully committed to redoubling our commitment
>     to make this a successful program/."  Was it infuriating that we
>     have internal debates from time to time on how we staff our
>     projects, or infuriating because we are redoubling our efforts in
>     many ways to make this a more successful and meaningful project for
>     the OS community than it has been in the past?  I was actually
>     making a comment that we've not done this very well to date (in
>     fact, we've sucked at it), and we're committed to many changes to
>     improve the situation.
> 
>     Either way, we're sorry to see you go.
> 
>     -- joe
> 
> 
>     On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Rob Nelson
>     <nexisentertainment at gmail.com <mailto:nexisentertainment at gmail.com>>
>     wrote:
> 
>         And yet, it does restrict GPL distribution rights.  We've been
>         over this
>         already.  And I'd like to see where the FSF OKed it, the only
>         thing I
>         can turn up on Google is Richard Stallman not being too happy
>         about it.
> 
>         I already changed the viewer I used to be working on to Luna,
>         but both
>         the GPL incompatabilities and this rather infuriating "cost/benefit"
>         comment by Joe have resulted in me deciding that LL does not
>         deserve any
>         further OSS development work from me.
> 
> 
>         On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 14:11 -0400, Ron Festa wrote:
>         > Honestly I tried looking through my inbox to find out what your
>         > concerns were and why no one else addressed them so forgive me
>         if I
>         > couldn't find them. The only problems I saw you had was
>         compatibility
>         > with the GPLv2 and the use of "Life" in your viewer name.
>         >
>         >
>         > The issues with Section 7 were in fact addressed and took up
>         most of
>         > the meeting. Someone claimed they went as far as bringing the TPVP
>         > before the FSF to verify if its GPLv2 compliant and sadly
>         according to
>         > them it is as its restricting a service not the code. Never
>         the less
>         > concerns were brought up and productive changes were suggested.
>         >
>         >
>         > As for the branding this should be no argument. If in a court
>         of law
>         > they can make Lindows change their name to Linspire because
>         Microsoft
>         > owns *indows then LL can do the same with all the TPV's as
>         stupid as
>         > that is.
>         >
>         >
>         > If these aren't your only concerns please share them so some
>         of us can
>         > deliver them by proxy for you since the time zone difference
>         seems to
>         > be the biggest problem for you.
>         >
>         >
>         > Ron Festa
>         > Virtual Worlds Admin
>         > Division of Continuing Studies at Rutgers University
>         > PGP key: http://bit.ly/b1ZyhY
>         > Phone: 732-474-8583
>         >
>         >
>         > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Rob Nelson
>         > <nexisentertainment at gmail.com
>         <mailto:nexisentertainment at gmail.com>> wrote:
>         >         I decided to read the transcript and it did not
>         address any of
>         >         my
>         >         concerns.
>         >
>         >         [12:21][Voice Transcript] Joe Linden: we've ha a lot of
>         >         internal debate
>         >         around cost/benefit of OS
>         >
>         >         ^ That was all I needed to hear.  Debate's effectively
>         over.
>         >
>         >         On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 09:27 -0700, Joe Linden wrote:
>         >
>         >
>         >         > Rob,
>         >         >
>         >         > I take it you weren't at the meeting yesterday?
>         >         >
>         >         > -- Joe
>         >         >
>         >         > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Rob Nelson
>         >         > <nexisentertainment at gmail.com
>         <mailto:nexisentertainment at gmail.com>> wrote:
>         >         >         It's already reached a point where LL has
>         told us,
>         >         to our
>         >         >         faces, that
>         >         >         they are not going to change the policy,
>         meaning our
>         >         opinion
>         >         >         doesn't
>         >         >         mean diddly to them.  There's no use
>         continuing to
>         >         discussion,
>         >         >         just as
>         >         >         there's no use continuing TPV development.
>         >         >
>         >         >
>         >         >
>         >         >         On Wed, 2010-04-14 at 07:52 -0500, Jonathan
>         Irvin
>         >         wrote:
>         >         >         > To Whom It May Concern:
>         >         >         >
>         >         >         > I'm requesting Linden Lab's response to this
>         >         inquiry due to
>         >         >         the recent
>         >         >         > influx of new topic related...or should I say
>         >         unrelated to
>         >         >         the
>         >         >         > development of the SnowGlobe viewer.
>          Lately, when
>         >         I open my
>         >         >         email, I
>         >         >         > get 5-10 different topics and responses
>         daily to
>         >         the recent
>         >         >         changes
>         >         >         > for the Third Party Viewer policy and I
>         feel that
>         >         this is
>         >         >         not related
>         >         >         > to SnowGlobe or related development at all.
>         >         >         >
>         >         >         > To "clear the pipes", can we please move these
>         >         discussions
>         >         >         to a
>         >         >         > different forum or list so valid OpenSource
>         >         development
>         >         >         questions are
>         >         >         > not lost in the flames, complaints, and
>         >         discussions related
>         >         >         to this
>         >         >         > specific topic?
>         >         >         >
>         >         >         > I do not feel it is valid in this forum to
>         talk
>         >         about which
>         >         >         > Third-Party Viewers in the directory were
>         already
>         >         >         impersonated or
>         >         >         > which part of the third party viewer
>         policy they
>         >         do not
>         >         >         like.
>         >         >         >
>         >         >         > Linden Labs, if you can please isolate this to
>         >         another
>         >         >         forum, I bet
>         >         >         > those who are truly interested in the
>         opensource
>         >         development
>         >         >         of the
>         >         >         > Second Life viewer would be more in tuned to
>         >         staying here
>         >         >         rather than
>         >         >         > wake up to read yet another unproductive
>         "I hate
>         >         LL and the
>         >         >         TPVP lets
>         >         >         > get together and share our misery post".
>         >         >         >
>         >         >         > Respectfully & Best Regards,
>         >         >         >
>         >         >         > Jonathan Irvin
>         >         >         > SL Resident of 5 Years.
>         >         >
>         >         >
>         >         >         >
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> 
> 
> 
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